If AFL didn’t exist, would the Wallabies be number 1?
By chig, 26 Oct 2009 chig is a Roar Rookie
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If AFL didn’t exist, would the Wallabies be number 1? This is the question I often ask after watching the Wallabies lose a Tri Nations match. This isn’t an attempt to denigrate AFL, I think we’re fortunate to have choice and our sporting culture is rich because of it.
However let’s suppose that during the 1850’s, Tom Wills saw Rugby as an ideal way to keep cricketers fit during the winter and the game gained a strong foothold throughout Victoria, SA, WA, Tasmania and NT.
In this ‘parallel universe’ it’s likely that after 1908 Rugby League would have gained more traction than Union because players were paid, but this is my ‘dream’ and I’m speculating that Rugby League remains niched in small areas as it has done in the UK and New Zealand.
The sport divide between Summer and Winter means that followers of the Australian cricket team are made up of AFL, NRL, Soccer and Rugby supporters, it’s a game that brings us all together.
Therefore the only true national sport is cricket. Can we draw parallels from this game? If Union is the only ‘footy’ code (soccer is a different beast), where would Australia sit in the pecking order of Southern Hemisphere Rugby? I’d surmise that we’d win the Tri Nations and Bledisloe Cup more often.
Over the last 20 years Australia has been the best International cricket team. Since the advent of professionalism in cricket in the 1970’s, it’s interesting to note which States produced the Australian cricketers to lay the foundation for this success.
From 1970 until today, there have been 164 cricketers represent Australia in all forms of the game. 49 players were born in NSW, WA 33, Victoria 31, Qld 22, SA 16, Tasmania 7 whilst the remaining 6 were born in the NT, ACT or overseas.
What is interesting that on a per capital basis WA is easily the most productive state. On this basis, it has produced over three times more Australian players than Victoria. One may argue, from a rugby development point of view, that it was a wise move to set up the Western Force (WA) Rugby franchise before the Victoria one.
If we all followed Rugby it would be our national sport. But being a national passion doesn’t guarantee success. Wales has a wonderful rugby history, it’s the sport of choice amongst its 2.9 million residents, but they are ranked 8th in the world.
If we all followed Rugby, there would be a lot more registered players, but this isn’t a barometer of potential success. There are 150,000 registered rugby players in NZ, but 700,000 in England. NZ is ranked 2nd, England is ranked 7th in the world.
So success is not directly attributed to the country’s obsession or the number of registered players, it’s about systems, structures and attracting the best athletes. Not any type of athlete, but the best athletes for Rugby.
I am sure there are brilliant rugby players in England who never played because they were soccer obsessed. Likewise, I am certain that there are AFL players loitering in suburban sides or reserve teams that will never make the big time. But Rugby may be a better option for their body size and skill sets, but they are yet to find the game.
If cricket and tennis were winter sports they would lose out in popularity to AFL. If this occurred, we may have never seen the spinning genius of Shane Warne as he would have languished in one of the minor St Kilda grades and we may have one less Wimbledon crown because Leyton Hewett was focused on making the Adelaide Crows team.
Therefore my “concern” with AFL is its dominance in specific states that may prevent future Wallabies coming to the fore. But this is not a fault of AFL, it shouldn’t be criticised for its success, rather it’s the fault of Rugby for not laying the foundations for these fringe AFL players to follow an alternative development channel.
This shouldn’t be a concern to AFL diehards. Rugby won’t knock AFL of its perch. We won’t take the Gary Ablett or ‘Buddy’ Franklin type players away from their destiny in AFL greatness; but we may unearth a John Eales type player and together we can all enjoy in the success of one of our national teams.
I am certain that Australia would have a much great win/loss ratio if Rugby was the only footy code, but it’s not and never will be. So rather than lamenting what could have been, let’s focus on what we can achieve. The goal therefore is to make the most of what we have.
I believe despite the doom and glow there is light for Rugby in Australia. The Western Force has triggered strong growth in Rugby numbers in Perth and this year several talented WA schoolboys were picked for the Australian Schools team. If the Victorian Super franchise bid is successful, hopefully we can replicate the grassroots success of WA in Victoria. In addition, Sevens Rugby’s admission to the Olympics will boost the profile of the sport in this country.
We need a National Rugby competition to develop talent. I have argued as such on this site; but it can’t be a tournament solely to grow the talent pool, it has to be financially successful and commercially sustainable. I am beginning to realise that this cannot be achieved now. We missed the boat back in 1996.
In addition I believe the meteoric rise in sponsorships and broadcaster revenue is in a boom cycle and in the not too distant future it will fall, bringing all codes back to earth. Therefore Rugby shouldn’t spread itself too thin with multiple competitions. It should focus on what it has and develop the pathways to find the best Rugby athletes, through a beefed up Club Rugby (a discussion for another post) and Super Rugby.
I don’t believe Rugby in these competitions competes against AFL. AFL competes with NRL and A-League at a national level for sponsorship and broadcast dollars. Rugby plays out at club and provincial/international level attracting a different level of sponsors with different target groups. Hopefully our AFL brethren can support us in our endeavours to develop Rugby and assist in making the WA and Victorian franchises successful.
If we do this, perhaps the Wallabies will become number 1 again.
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October 26th 2009 @ 1:03pm
M1tch said | October 26th 2009 @ 1:03pm | Report comment
Wallabies would be number 1 if AFL and NRL both went under
October 26th 2009 @ 6:38pm
Hansie said | October 26th 2009 @ 6:38pm | Report comment
In rugby terms, there is a lot of wasted talent running around in the AFL. Gary Ablett Jnr is a born fly half, with vision, skills and composure.
October 26th 2009 @ 6:43pm
bever fever said | October 26th 2009 @ 6:43pm | Report comment
I look at it in a completely different way, a lot of these rugby backs would enjoy the freedom of Australian football that rugby does not offer them.
IMO it is the rugby player that is missing out.
A lot of recent South African immigrants have their kids playing Australian rules footy and they love it, that is not to say that they have turned their back on rugby which is part of most white saffas culture.
October 26th 2009 @ 9:48pm
captain nemo said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:48pm | Report comment
yeh bever, those Aussie rugby players spending their twighlight playing days in France are really missing out!!! How horrible it must be for them and their family to experience the best of European experiences with their children learning a second language. weekends spent in Paris or the Riviera. Yeh bever, those rugby boys are really missing out.
October 26th 2009 @ 11:34pm
bever fever said | October 26th 2009 @ 11:34pm | Report comment
I didn’t say it was more universal or you get a better paypacket/travel incentives etc, what i said was the backs would get way more freedom and be able to strut their stuff/skills than they do at present.
Your reply demonstrates the present state of rugby ………………. we know its a crap game compared to AFL/NRL but the travel is great.
October 27th 2009 @ 11:31am
captain nemo said | October 27th 2009 @ 11:31am | Report comment
bever, please don’t say “we” when you describe rugby as a crap game compared to AFL/NRL. You are your own man and you do not speak for me or alot of people on here. My opinion is the reverse of yours mate. Also bever, there is a reason why the travel is great with football and rugby!!!
October 27th 2009 @ 12:59pm
bever fever said | October 27th 2009 @ 12:59pm | Report comment
Fair point .. changed to eye.
October 27th 2009 @ 1:05pm
Redb said | October 27th 2009 @ 1:05pm | Report comment
Bever,
Sick of bad breath in the front row?
Are your ears attracting attention in the fruit & vege section at Safeway?
Sick of offside?
“Play AFL and set yourself free”
Redb
October 27th 2009 @ 1:12pm
bever fever said | October 27th 2009 @ 1:12pm | Report comment
Actually should not have said “eye” i was actually speaking from a rugger point of view with that last sentence.
If that makes any sense, should have re-read my own post.
October 26th 2009 @ 6:55pm
Pippinu said | October 26th 2009 @ 6:55pm | Report comment
bever has point.
in the case of Ablett jnr – he managed to surpass the exploits of his ol’ man – that’s the stuff of legend – his name will be remembered for centuries – what more can one desire?
October 26th 2009 @ 8:44pm
Mad Mex said | October 26th 2009 @ 8:44pm | Report comment
Pip, as someone who is an obsessed Geelong supporter, your suggestion that Ablett jnr has surpassed the exploits of snr is a little premature. Snr was and will be the best ever and that is no disrespect to jnr.
Back on topic, yes 95% of Victoria’s hybrid sportsmen (those being good enough for AFL or cricket) have chosen footy however Chig raises an intersting question.
Had the game that is Aussie rules not eventuated, these same lads may now be wearing a baggy green (though I suspect nsw bias on the selection panel would still be a limiting factor
However, cricket is a game that is played in Summer. This obviously leaves a Winter void. Indeed rugby may well have entrenched itself in Victoria. Many private schools actually field a union side.
From memory, I can’t recall coming across league being played at any Victorian schools (admittedly this was 15 years ago). Point being, I think rugby may well have been the no 1 sport in Melborne.
Soccer always had high participation but there was limited scope to branch out, except if you were good enough to make it o/s. Certainly the NSL offered little.
However, as Chig himself alludes to this is the stuff of day dreams. As other have posited, it is more a case of what rugby should be addressing now. That is if the posers who run the game could put aside their ego for 15 minutes.
October 26th 2009 @ 8:50pm
Pippinu said | October 26th 2009 @ 8:50pm | Report comment
Mad Mex
Jnr and Snr are very different players (although in some aspects, they have an uncanny resemblence, not sure what it is exactlly, maybe the hunching over the ball look, dunno) – and obvoiusly Snr is one of the all time greats – goes without saying – but despite the fact that jnr has stacks of footy left in him, he’s already got a Brownlow and two premiership medals – that’s not bad doing – many would describe that as surpassing the ol’ man.
October 26th 2009 @ 9:18pm
AndyRoo said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:18pm | Report comment
I think if AFL didn’t exist then it would be likely the NSW experience would be replicated in Victoria, WA and SA.
Football would have huge participation but League would be the number one game. Melbourne likes Rugby more than league but that is because Union fell in a different niche than AFL. Up until 1995 it was an amateur gamewith global ties and is more social.
If the Vics were big on rugby by 1908 then the constant loss of their best players to League over the next 87 years would have swayed alot of people. League would have filled the void that AFL now fills.
October 27th 2009 @ 10:37am
Redb said | October 27th 2009 @ 10:37am | Report comment
I agree Mad Mex, GA Junior is nowhere near Senior at this stage. Even the young Ablett himself will albeit modestly suggest if he is half the player his father was that would be great.
Garry Ablett Snr drew thousands of non Geelong people to his games – unbeleivable strength and skill under pressure. Was dubbed GOD for a reason.
Redb
October 26th 2009 @ 6:41pm
Dave1 said | October 26th 2009 @ 6:41pm | Report comment
It doesn’t go both ways. There’s not a lot of talent running around Australian Rugby.
October 26th 2009 @ 7:13pm
sheek said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:13pm | Report comment
Does anyone besides me have that sinking feeling that for most of their life they’ve been backing the wrong horse?
In this case, the wrong football code!
Right now, as I enjoy the RL four nations, I “almost” couldn’t caree less!
October 26th 2009 @ 7:21pm
Pippinu said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:21pm | Report comment
Sheek
you’re sounding like a Catholic who has just walked out of a Protestant service!
October 27th 2009 @ 3:15pm
sheek said | October 27th 2009 @ 3:15pm | Report comment
Pip,
I like that!
Henry the 8th was onto something, demanding he marry whomever as often as he wanted.
This is how to get both the object of your desire & despair rolled into one!
October 26th 2009 @ 7:23pm
Pete said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:23pm | Report comment
Say it isn’t so Sheek… say it isn’t so…
October 26th 2009 @ 9:06pm
chig said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:06pm | Report comment
Sheek, visit http://www.rugby.com.au and click on the video Grand Slam 1984: Wallabies vs. Wales. That’s why you backed Union!
It won’t be long before the game is played like that again. Its just a cycle. Tactics will be found to beat a kicking game and break open the current defence patterns.
October 26th 2009 @ 9:23pm
Pippinu said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:23pm | Report comment
There’s a fair bit of truth in that – about cycles – and tactics being found.
It wasn’t that long ago that people were thinking as to whether the AFL should change the rules (yet again) to combat the scourge of the ultra-flood – which was boring even fanatical supporters.
The temptation was resisted (and plenty of idiotic suggestions were floating around at the time) – but some cool heads insisted that coaches would find a way round it and it woudl resolve itself once it was proven that you couldn’t win a game of footy by simply plonking all 18 of your players inside the defensive 50m arc.
With the defense marking space rather than men – teams were soon programmed to stop bombing it long, and to use the free numbers to create lots of 2 on 1s to advance the ball – run and carry, bounce, handball to a player running past, hold on to it and don’t kick till you have a target.
The other thing was that coaches quickly worked out that if you move the ball quick enough, you can hit up targets up forward before the opposition have time to settle into a defensive formation.
Quick, clean movement of the ball – don’t cough it up too easily – always hit a target.
November 12th 2009 @ 6:04pm
Dave1 said | November 12th 2009 @ 6:04pm | Report comment
but rule changes did help negate the flood by opening up and speeding up play.
October 27th 2009 @ 3:18pm
sheek said | October 27th 2009 @ 3:18pm | Report comment
Chig,
I was there, watching all 5 matches (including the Babas). Well, via late night TV, anyway. Like a good christian (& rugby lover) I’ve been waiting for the second coming ever since.
Is it fair to say, being thrilled out of your socks once every 25 years, or even once every 10 years, is just a tad….. er….. under-whelming?!
October 27th 2009 @ 6:34pm
chig said | October 27th 2009 @ 6:34pm | Report comment
Sheek,
I grew up out in Sydney’s west playing RL at school. I remember the ’84 grand slam. I was 8 at the time, but I didn’t watch any of the games. I was at a mate’s house and his older brothers came running in jumping up and down saying the “Wallabies had won the grand slam” (this was in the days before the internet so we had to wait until the evening news!) I was jumping up and down too but I had no idea what the grand slam was, but by their reaction I knew it was special. In fact I didn’t really know what Union was, it was some strange game my dad had played.
I didn’t play union until I was 14, but this was the moment that stimulated my interest in the game (without compromising my love for RL).
Hopefully the Wallabies of ’09 can stimulate other kids to love Rugby as well.
October 27th 2009 @ 2:32am
Daniel said | October 27th 2009 @ 2:32am | Report comment
Alternative “what if” scenario: if Rugby League hadn’t been controlled for so many decades by people who couldn’t see the big picture and made their decisions based on a myopic, “my club first”, anti-expansion attitude*, what then might have become of Rugby Union in Australia? Their situation might be even more desperate than it is now.
*both in England and Australia. Fans of Rugby Union would probably call me a bare-faced liar if I listed some of the decisions that Rugby League administrators have made over the years. They’re so astonishingly bad, they’re scarcely credible.
October 27th 2009 @ 11:55am
Midfielder said | October 27th 2009 @ 11:55am | Report comment
Chiq
Can I ask you a question…
In NSW / ACT / QLD … how would RU taken on the AFL …. without RL to protect it… ?
Despite all the rank and anger that many in the RU family have towards RL in Australia … it is without doubt in the southern states RU numbers and influence is almost nil and would be the same in NSW / ACT ? QLD without a professional RL code…
October 27th 2009 @ 2:34pm
Pippinu said | October 27th 2009 @ 2:34pm | Report comment
Sean Fagan has argued this point that mid is making (I think), that the entry of League on the scene in 1908 actually saved NSW and Queensland from being overtaken by aussie rules, allowing rugby to survive alongside it.
I don’t know if that’s true or not, Sean is the expert on this sort of stuff.
All I know is that both NSW and Queensland entered the footy carnival of 1908 to celebrate 50 years of “Australasian Football”, and NZ defeated both NSW and Queensland.
October 27th 2009 @ 6:15pm
chig said | October 27th 2009 @ 6:15pm | Report comment
Midfielder, completely agree if RL wasn’t in the northern states AFL would have probably taken those states as well. I can’t speak for any other Union followers but I hold no animosity towards RL (or AFL or football). In fact I enjoyed playing/watching them.
I think all this ‘my code is better than your code’ is utter Cr*p. Who gives a toss, enjoy the game for what it is, or watch something else if we don’t. It’s a strange situation where we cheer for our Code as well as our team.
I think most of the time, due to concerns about our code, we are trying to convince ourselves as much as others, that its the best code
October 27th 2009 @ 3:27pm
sheek said | October 27th 2009 @ 3:27pm | Report comment
Pip,
What you are suggesting Sean Fagan was intimating at, is basically true.
Rugby union will argue that rugby league was started because of greed (convenient of them to think that).
Fagan argues that Sydney, a working class city, was ripe for professional football. Had rugby league not provided the professional sport, then Australian football would most likely won the day, & filled the void.
As it was, Aussie rules narrowly missed securing Sydney & Brisbane back in the 1890s. Consequently, AF can consider this period a lost opportunity.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but NSW, Qld & NZ RUs should have told the oh-so-amateur-at-all-costs Brits to shove it! I know who would have won this one out.
The northern English & Welsh would have broken ranks, while the French & Saffies would also have agreed to go professional.
But for more gumption from the NSWRU, RU could have been professional around 1910 instead of waiting until 1995.
October 27th 2009 @ 3:34pm
Pippinu said | October 27th 2009 @ 3:34pm | Report comment
Yes – good point – I think your right.
But who can know these things at the time.
Mind you, aussie rules was never really professional, in the sense that that’s all people did for a living – right up to the 60s it was nothing more than a bit of pocket money – and there were many debates at the time as to whether players should or shouldn’t get any more – it started growing from there – and the comp sort of gradually became fully professsional soon after the creation of the AFL in 1990.
October 27th 2009 @ 3:41pm
Michael C said | October 27th 2009 @ 3:41pm | Report comment
re the professional aspect – - back 40-70 years ago many ‘VFL’ players headed bush because they got more money up Wang or Ky or whereever, or their job as a teacher or at the bank or whatever took them away. Back in those more romantic days…the story of the ‘bush legend’ were ever so more interesting than these days.
October 27th 2009 @ 4:14pm
sheek said | October 27th 2009 @ 4:14pm | Report comment
Pip,
Contrary to the spin put out by RU in 1907-09, the RL wasn’t interested in full professionalism either.
While a small minority of players would have liked to be paid for their services, the two key issues were – 1) medical insurance protection & 2), decent away from home travelling expenses.
Apart from these two issues, the players would have been happy to play on Saturdays for nothing.
Of course, professionalism (pay for play) would have come about gradually, but it wasn’t the key motivating factor at the time.
What you say about AF also applied to RL until much later, the 50s or 60s.
October 27th 2009 @ 6:38pm
Pippinu said | October 27th 2009 @ 6:38pm | Report comment
Sheek
you remind me of just how tough the rules once were – not just 100 years ago – but 20 years ago!!
Remember the story of one of the Ella brothers? I think it was Mark – how strict they were about him earning even some pocket money from writing articles on the game.
Even after retirement? Am I remembering that exactly right?
October 27th 2009 @ 9:49pm
Daniel said | October 27th 2009 @ 9:49pm | Report comment
Ah yes, those Rugby Union travelling expenses… I remember the former England foward Geoff Probyn reminiscing that, back in the ‘amateur’ days, such expenses always seemed to be more about the quality of the player, rather than the distance they had to travel.
The RFU did ban players for playing Rugby League, even if it was at strictly amateur level, or if they had an unpaid trial, while not taking action if one of their players received money for playing any other sport like Cricket. It wasn’t about the professionalism in many cases; just sheer animosity towards the other code.
Before RU’s professionalism, the ex-Sheffield Eagles RLFC player, Dave Alred, used to have to wear a balaclava to conceal his face when working as a kicking coach for the likes of Rob Andrew. Crazy and stupid.
That small minority who utterly detest Rugby League have a lot less power in Rugby Union these days, which can only be a good thing for both codes.
November 3rd 2009 @ 6:33pm
Dave1 said | November 3rd 2009 @ 6:33pm | Report comment
this is a good history of payments for players in Victoria
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/ASSH%20Bulletins/No%2026/ASSHBulletin26e.pdf
October 27th 2009 @ 10:30pm
Winston said | October 27th 2009 @ 10:30pm | Report comment
What if NZ was into AFL. Would they eventually dominate that code as well?
We are seriously catching up in league you know.
October 27th 2009 @ 10:33pm
Pippinu said | October 27th 2009 @ 10:33pm | Report comment
The same hunger and motivation would be there – maybe more.