NRL expansion – who’s leading the charge?
Roar Guru By M1tch, 26 Oct 2009 M1tch is a Roar Guru
- Tagged:
- Central Coast Bears, NRL, NRL expansion, Rugby League, Western Reds
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2009 is the year of the Ox in the Chinese calender, world wide 2009 is the year of astronomy, but in Australian sport 2009 has really been the year for expansion.
The AFL, Rugby Union and Soccer, have all announced their expansion plans of where, when and why. But sadly the NRL once again has been very quiet on this topic.
Are we waiting for the independent commission? Will it be only then when the administrators give us fans some indication where the game will be heading?
Whether it’s the case of not, I’ve been intrigued by the past 12 months and what the Central Coast Bears have done very quietly.
In a time where two current NRL clubs don’t have a major sponsor, the Bears announced a major sponsor, have got the corporate support, have the junior talent and seem to have the general consensus of not only local support but support of rugby league fans in general. But what do we hear from the NRL? Hang on I can hear…crickets chirping, that’s it.
So we have the Bears as the most likely new team to be admitted to the NRL. Now who or where is second in line?
If you had asked me a year ago I would have without a doubt said the Western Reds, the team from Perth back in the Super League days. But sadly it has been quiet from the West of late, other than in 2010 the Reds will be a SG Ball (under 18′s) team and not the Bundy team that we saw in 2009.
In parallel to that, the big mover has been a Central Queensland side, in which the last few months has a army of support from the Government, major sponsors, local business and the fans of the Central Queensland region.
So when the NRL finally announces the next expansion team/s, I wouldn’t be surprised if its the two Central teams that will be joining the competition.
Which is a great thing for the heartlands of the game, but does nothing for growing the game nationally.
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- Central Coast Bears, NRL, NRL expansion, Rugby League, Western Reds
October 26th 2009 @ 8:46am
Dom said | October 26th 2009 @ 8:46am | Report comment
You say that the NRL needs to expand but you dont consider the clubs that are struggling.
Cronulla are in debt and Melbourne are losing up to 8 million a year and the NRL are not willing to save cronulla.
AT least with AFL and a league the governing bodies are willing to prop up the clubs that are struggling a bit
October 26th 2009 @ 8:51am
Robbo said | October 26th 2009 @ 8:51am | Report comment
Why should the NRL support Cronulla – they have low crowds, cause constant off-field headaches, finished second last and have never won a premiership. The sooner this blight on the NRL is gone the better.
October 26th 2009 @ 8:55am
Firestarter Bob said | October 26th 2009 @ 8:55am | Report comment
“AT least with AFL and a league the governing bodies are willing to prop up the clubs that are struggling a bit” – Bull! The AFL commission would uch prefer to see 2 or 3 Melbourne clubs die. The Melbourne AFL clubs bleat and whinge all the time to extricate finiancial support from the AFL commission.
October 26th 2009 @ 10:41am
James said | October 26th 2009 @ 10:41am | Report comment
“The AFL commission would uch prefer to see 2 or 3 Melbourne clubs die”
Absolute Rubbish post. Up till now, the AFL have been giving the poorer clubs millions to prop them up. Why would they do that if they wanted them to die Firestarter? The MCG and Etihad deals have just be done which is the single most importnant financial factor for struggling clubs. Port Adelaide will also be fixed next year (again a stadium issue). Demetriou repeatedly has said that the 10 clubs in Victoria is always the target, and with the $1 billion rights deal coming, and the imporved stadium deals, this will at least be guaranteed in the short to mid term (i.e. next 5-10 years).
October 26th 2009 @ 10:52am
Firestarter Bob said | October 26th 2009 @ 10:52am | Report comment
The did it under the gun from certain vocal Melbourne clubs. If those clubs hadn’t become vocal they would not have got the deal and pay-outs from the AFL that they now get. The AFL won’t cut them because of the public outcry it would cause. It has nothing to do with being the right thing to do. In a national AFL competition looking for further expansion there are too many clubs in Melbourne.
October 26th 2009 @ 11:28am
Pippinu said | October 26th 2009 @ 11:28am | Report comment
You’re right about the public outcry, of course the public make the comp.
Occasionally, a competition will encounter less of a public outcry because:
1. the numbers aren’t there to cry out; and
2. the economic imperative is just too great.
both those conditions were encountered for South Melbourne and Fitzroy, and have occasionally nearly been encountered for North and Footscray.
Those conditions weren’t there for Souths (lack of public outcry), and they made their way back in again (but it’s hard to justify cutting a team that has won 20 premierships!!)
October 26th 2009 @ 8:55am
Dogs Of War said | October 26th 2009 @ 8:55am | Report comment
Dom, learn the history of Cronulla. They have been saved by the League twice before. They also have a big issue in the location of their ground, and they are surrounded by St George, and thus have a hard time engaging any support further out than Cronulla itself.
Melbourne aren’t losing $8mil a year. It’s all pure speculation, as the club is owned by News Ltd it’s hard to see what exactly is happening at the club, though they have some of the highest sponsorships in the NRL, so it’s hard to imagine how they could possibly by losing that much. Either way, when the new stadium comes online next season, Melbourne should see a big increase in attendances when people can actually be close to the action (the old stadium sucked bad!).
And why may some clubs be struggling? Because we are being ripped off in TV rights income. Thus why the Independent Commission is required, to remove the conflict of interest that exists currently. Not to mention getting someone to put into the contract that games must be shown into all markets (yes into Victoria!)
October 26th 2009 @ 9:00am
LT80 said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:00am | Report comment
One location for expansion that has not had any serious bid yet come to light is Brisbane. I would guess that another Brisbane side would be one of the more attractive and least risky options for expansion. The city is easily large enough to support another club, especially given it is such a league-focused region.
October 26th 2009 @ 9:02am
M1tch said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:02am | Report comment
Agree there, whispers about a Logan side, but havent been alot of talk about it though. A game each week at Suncorp is something the NRL would love Id say.
October 26th 2009 @ 9:18am
LT80 said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:18am | Report comment
Yes there is this website: http://www.logannrlbid.com, but I don’t how serious or realistic they are.
I think there is definitely a case for another Brisbane club, and there are a few different options. It could have a district identity, based at Logan, Ipwich or Redcliffe etc. Or it could be based at Lang Park, competing directly with the Broncos.
October 26th 2009 @ 9:21am
M1tch said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:21am | Report comment
Sunny Coast is 1 believe the second fastest area of population growth after the gold coast.
Set up with the Eagles this year..who knows
Its good though on one hand we have options, but would love to see all and out bids
October 26th 2009 @ 9:25am
LT80 said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:25am | Report comment
But who’s moving to the Sunny Coast that it’s growing so quickly? Retirees mainly!!!!!!
October 26th 2009 @ 9:26am
M1tch said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:26am | Report comment
lol, same with Gold Coast, but still get the numbers
October 26th 2009 @ 9:28am
Brett McKay said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:28am | Report comment
LT, it’d be the Qlders from the Gold Coast who are sick of all the Victorians moving in
October 26th 2009 @ 9:03am
Dogs Of War said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:03am | Report comment
There has been interest, but more around Ipswitch/Logan or Sunshine Coast. Both of which I believe are better options than a second Brisbane team at this point.
October 26th 2009 @ 10:30am
The Link said | October 26th 2009 @ 10:30am | Report comment
RL is doing expansion the right way. Bids are coming from a groundswell of community support, rather than a cynical marketing and demographic exercise. This is the way RL has traditionally done expansion. The Storm are an exception to this, as were alot of things that occurred during the Super League era.
Central Coast, Perth, Sunshine Coast, Logan bids are all being driven from the ground up.
The Bears will be next in, followed by Perth and a second QLD / NZ side.
October 26th 2009 @ 10:45am
The Link said | October 26th 2009 @ 10:45am | Report comment
Add PNG being driven from the ground up. The Kummuls could have a side in the next 20 years if they do it right.
October 26th 2009 @ 10:49am
M1tch said | October 26th 2009 @ 10:49am | Report comment
combined with a Darwin team it could work
November 12th 2009 @ 3:21pm
oikee said | November 12th 2009 @ 3:21pm | Report comment
Excellent post, and i can give you the reason why Brisbane probably wont support a new club. The Queensland cup, this competition is very strong, not only for communities but also for feeder clubs for the NRL, dont under-estimate the strenght of Brisbane rugby league because they only have 1 team. Our strength lies in the local teams. A perfect example was when the Broncos come into the comp, the Brisbane comp suffered, until it picked itself up and is where it is today. Another team could enter the comp now without to much trouble, Ipswich would be the likely result. Logan is a feeder for Coast and Ipswich.
The clubs have alot of feeders in Brisbane. We dont want to weaken this comp.
October 26th 2009 @ 11:34am
oikee said | October 26th 2009 @ 11:34am | Report comment
Why should the NRL come out with any expansion team yet. They have 3 years to see how the market performs, and the AFL has left the door wide open for a team in Perth, plenty of supporters their without a team to support. Once FiFa make their announcement on the world cup, if oz does get the games then we will have purpose built stadiums in Perth and Aderlaide, .
This is what rugby league needs to wait for, big announcements so we can plan off the back of them. No good going hell bent into perth without good facilaties. Same applies to Nth Qld.
The Bears are more than ready, they will be 1st picked, Cronulla is about to rebuild, they wont be going anywhere. So Wellington should be looked at, maybe we might need 4 teams, if we announce this, then the T/V deal will be mammoth. We have 3 years, lets not jump the gun.
If we announce a 20 team comp, we could then recruit Sth Africans, the best French and Pommie players, and open up more room for our ever burgening toyota cup players. We need to face facts, our players are now superstars at the age of 20, so if we dont make room for these players, they will be lost.
Trust me on this, the NRL has already plans for a commiision, and they would also know that the under 20 comp is far more successful than anyone could ever imagine. Sometimes you need to sit back and not rush things. No matter what happens, we have at least 6 areas, nearly 7-8 if you count PNG, that want expansion. So its going to happen. Sit back and enjoy the ride, as you seen in the 4 nation game, its only going to get better. That was the best game i have seen apart from maybe 1 or 2. The poms loved it, and know that league is the great at the highest level.
Cheers.
I am more interested in the Atlantic cup, between the yanks and Jamaica, thats our future, these 2 teams are rising at a rapid rate, the Jamiacians have got some good Super league players in their team. We need for this comp to grow, and the RLIF has sanctioned this as a genuine test match.
October 26th 2009 @ 11:48am
Michael C said | October 26th 2009 @ 11:48am | Report comment
“AFL has left the door wide open for a team in Perth, plenty of supporters their without a team to support”
they were going to the WAFL (season att. 245,289). Last time over 200K was 1994 with 241,338.
In 2002, the yearly total was 141,679.
Point of this – -
all these expansion plans by 4 elite level codes is one thing……
but, it does run the risk of continually freezing out the lower tiers….
which risks becoming self defeating if they find it hard to generate revenues and have to be a drag on the resources of the elite level to provide stable pathways. If a 3rd AFL team or a 1st NRL team got established….and the WAFL perhaps dropped 100,000 attendees each year…..that short fall has to be made up somewhere.
October 26th 2009 @ 1:23pm
James said | October 26th 2009 @ 1:23pm | Report comment
“AFL has left the door wide open for a team in Perth, plenty of supporters there without a team to support”
What exactly do you mean by this? What more should the AFL do? put another team in? (Which they probably will in the next 20 years). Not sure I see your logic.
I think NRL’s best chance in Perth is if the Western Force suddenly fold – which aint going to happen…they are a lot stronger for Rugby Union then League. So if they barely get 20k to the Force, exactly how many do you expect to get for a Perth League club??
October 26th 2009 @ 1:26pm
M1tch said | October 26th 2009 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
which is why at the very least the NRL needs more games over their to gauge support.
15k for souths v storm was fantastic..10k for a trail as well eariler in the year
October 26th 2009 @ 1:39pm
Michael C said | October 26th 2009 @ 1:39pm | Report comment
like everything, the novelty factor has to be ruled out.
Heck, just look at the HAL this year, BrisRoar just below 20K round 1, and since then, avg about 7.5K.
Just shows a 1 off game can give a pretty poor guide to what the business model should be built around.
October 26th 2009 @ 3:21pm
M1tch said | October 26th 2009 @ 3:21pm | Report comment
good points, id basically like to see public support for a nrl team there.
titans did the research here, nrl or reds need to go to the people to see if they will support their own team
October 27th 2009 @ 10:48am
Bankstown Boy said | October 27th 2009 @ 10:48am | Report comment
Followed the Bulldogs all my life…they will always be my team, and I imagine a lot of other expats over here will say the same.
BUT I would definately buy a reds season memebrship to all their home games, i’m sure a lot of West Australians would agree with me… it would be fantiastic to be able to see ANY 1st grade top notch NRL games here. Its a long to go to see a game at the moment!!!
October 26th 2009 @ 1:29pm
Pippinu said | October 26th 2009 @ 1:29pm | Report comment
I’m not sure what Oikee means – but it’s true that West Coast has a huge waiting list for memberhsips, and Freo isn’t far behind – plus it’s a city with good population growth – so one could mount the argument that there is a bit of a door left ajar.
October 26th 2009 @ 1:39pm
James said | October 26th 2009 @ 1:39pm | Report comment
And I think Demetriou knows that Pip, judging by his recent expansion comments. Although, don’t forget that there is a new 60k stadium beeing mooted for Perth. Once they get that, (and think they will eventually…with or without a FIFA World Cup), then suddenly demand goes down and tickets become more available. Still agree with you Perth is on the radar but not till 2020 at least it seems…
October 26th 2009 @ 11:32pm
Working Class Rugger said | October 26th 2009 @ 11:32pm | Report comment
Ummm… what 60,000 seat stadium. Last I heard Member’s Equity is having an upgrade to around 27,000. And the next likely Stadia works will be an upgrade of Subiaco Oval. Which is a rubbish Stadium to watch the rectangular field sports. If you’re talking about the proposed $1 billion multi-sport stadium. It was scrapped not long after the current state govt came to power.
October 27th 2009 @ 12:24am
danwighton said | October 27th 2009 @ 12:24am | Report comment
One of the potential positives of a soccer world cup would be an increase in facilities – but lets hope that they dont just throw some seats in at the adelaide oval and subiaco – while it might technically comply with the FIFA requirements, it wouldnt be a great viewing experience.
Someone should lobby each state govt to build a Suncorp Stadium replica in Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth – how great would that be for the rectangular codes. Soccer, RL and RU should pool their resources to do it.
October 26th 2009 @ 1:33pm
AndyRoo said | October 26th 2009 @ 1:33pm | Report comment
James, i would say it’s in the NRL’s interest that the A league team and the Force grow a bit and get some sort of decent rectangular ground built. Ah lah what the Victory and Storm did for Rugby Union in Victoria.
October 26th 2009 @ 1:41pm
James said | October 26th 2009 @ 1:41pm | Report comment
Agree. But unless the new Perth Stadium (when ever it is built) is multipurpose, then I think their best chance is continual upgrades to Members Equity Stadium.
October 26th 2009 @ 2:25pm
M1tch said | October 26th 2009 @ 2:25pm | Report comment
which will be something like a 22k capacity perfect size
October 26th 2009 @ 7:16pm
Dogs Of War said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:16pm | Report comment
AndyRoo, it’s about the NRL approaching the government and saying that a stadium will make all the difference in getting a team. No Government is going to knock back that sort of income coming into their state, especially when it’s a shared resource.
October 26th 2009 @ 7:17pm
oikee said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:17pm | Report comment
The door wide open means just that. Demetriou has already let the cat outta the bag after he realised that Goldie and West Sydney are going to be a drag on the comp for many years, and Perth would have been a safe bet for another expansion, but what he has done is left Perth wide open and ripe for rugby league. I think their is going to be 3-4 games played there over the next 3 years, maybe more, if demand is high. So it only makes sense to give them a team. League only needs a crowd of 15 thousand to survive. If you can lure SBW home and make him your marquey signing, it would be a instant success.
So the door is swinging and their is sweet fa that Demetriou can do about it, he.s commited to 2 dud clubs in unwanted territory.
Believe me, the coast will sink faster than a whale caught in a shark net. He under-estamates the QLD public. It will get a few expats turn up, but lets face it, most of the Coast expats are like the MCG crowd, retired old Cricket players.?
He has not even got 18 up and running yet, and those slow old players running around in the AFL now are useless. Like watching garaffes run across the Serriengetty.
October 26th 2009 @ 9:15pm
James said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:15pm | Report comment
“Demetriou has already let the cat outta the bag after he realised that Goldie and West Sydney are going to be a drag on the comp for many years”
Lets judge that in 5 years or so shall we
“Perth would have been a safe bet for another expansion”
Hmm…saturate your home base even further…why stop at Perth…lets add another team in Melbourne!
“League only needs a crowd of 15 thousand to survive.”
You’d be lucky to get that. Force barely get 20k, and Union is twice as popular as League is in Perth.
“If you can lure SBW home and make him your marquey signing, it would be a instant success.”
I doubt anybody in Perth evenknows who SNB is
“Believe me, the coast will sink faster than a whale caught in a shark net. He under-estamates the QLD public”
Again, lets judge that down the track. What you dont understand is that the AFL, being the most attended sports competition in the country, will drag 10,000 pies, dons, blues, cats etc fans up everytime the GC plays them. All they need is about 10k of their own crowd, and you have 20k, with the southerners coming up for a holoday. AFL fans travel, and they are the ones that are going to be stimulating the QLD economy and Anna Bligh’s pants
October 26th 2009 @ 9:20pm
Dogs Of War said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:20pm | Report comment
So why didn’t they come when they were the Brisbane Bears? Why didn’t the crowds come when they had North Melbourne playing on the Coast? Why didn’t anyone come when any other teams played their?
Rugby League before the Titans came in where getting capacity crowds for trial matches. That;s how they knew it was time for a team.
October 26th 2009 @ 9:24pm
GaryGnu said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:24pm | Report comment
James,
Richmond played Adelaide in round 14 this year at Carrara and pulled a crowd of roughly 11,000. This is one of the better supported Melbourne teams and an interstate team with one of, if not the largest, membership bases in the country. I was at the game and it was underwhelming to say the least.
Perhaps the new stadium development will make a difference but like oikee I have serious doubts about the long term viability of the GC team (just as I have serious doubts about most of the mooted expansion teams of all codes in the current “rush”).
October 26th 2009 @ 11:37pm
Working Class Rugger said | October 26th 2009 @ 11:37pm | Report comment
Not to mention that I personally know plenty of Force fans who don’t mind a bit of League and made it out to ME for the Souths game. Rugby is significantly bigger than League in WA. As for the Force’s crowds. Expect it to topple the 20K mark next year. The biggest gripe of Force fans with Subi was it’s too far from the action.
October 26th 2009 @ 1:14pm
Tom Alexander. said | October 26th 2009 @ 1:14pm | Report comment
In order for the Super league to have the best chance of succeeding, News Limited needed the Broncos as it’s flagship club more than anything else. Brisbane being predominantly a 1 team town has virtually guaranteed the Broncos the best of everything (the biggest crowds, the best stadiums, having the best access to state and local government support for infrastructure etc. The return of Perth, North Sydney and a 2nd Brisbane team plus a 2nd NZ side should just about do it for the near future. And a conferencing system of say (1) traditional Sydney teams and (2) Regional sides playing separatelyfor the first half of the season with an intergrated comp for the 2nd half of the season would be worth a look. This would give back to the Sydney and Regional team supporters their traditional local grudge matches, which still seems to be what pulls in the biggest crowds. Parramatta vs Canterbury, Cowboys vs Broncos and Gold Coast, Melbourne vs Warriors, Manly vs West Tigers, South Sydney vs Saint George etc. The other codes are not waiting for the grass to grow under their feet.
October 26th 2009 @ 1:23pm
M1tch said | October 26th 2009 @ 1:23pm | Report comment
Have doubts over Wellington and if they will support a nrl team week in week out. Id rather a team as well with a rectangular ground..but thats just me
The 2 conferences seems to be something thats growing too, more blockbusters is what Sydney needs.
October 26th 2009 @ 6:05pm
macavity said | October 26th 2009 @ 6:05pm | Report comment
conferences would give way too much of a leg-up to Sydney teams to the detriment of the rest of us. Bad idea.
October 26th 2009 @ 6:25pm
M1tch said | October 26th 2009 @ 6:25pm | Report comment
it has pro’s and con’s..the parra v dogs prelim was a eye opener that sydney people will attend the big games..
with the conferences, could basically pencil in the sydney match at Homebush and you would get a bumper crowd as it is the sydney grand final
October 26th 2009 @ 7:13pm
Dogs Of War said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:13pm | Report comment
I think conferences would be the best thing that ever happened to League. Would make the Sydney teams one of the strengths of the comp. It also takes away the invisible conference system that occurs each year, making it much more transparent.
Though if we went down this route, it should be a minimum of 3, maybe even 4 conference’s that exist.
October 27th 2009 @ 7:20pm
macavity said | October 27th 2009 @ 7:20pm | Report comment
Ask fans of non-sydney teams and they will tell you it would be the worst thing to ever happen to League.
From a purely selfish point, most of my team’s rivalries are with Sydney teams. It is quite arguable that we would be the big losers in a conference system.
October 26th 2009 @ 6:33pm
Pete said | October 26th 2009 @ 6:33pm | Report comment
Is there a point when RL, Union, A-League & AFL cannot expand anymore? Its becoming a bit napoleonic. In a bid to be the greatest code we must cover all points of this country. AFL want 20 teams, the A-League a second division, Rugby Union a National comp and a 5th franchise. When will it stop? Where will we get the players… and what’s more the spectators… Does it make the ‘product’ any better or just dilute the established rivalries?
October 26th 2009 @ 6:37pm
M1tch said | October 26th 2009 @ 6:37pm | Report comment
A-League wont get a second division, I cant see them progessing after 14 teams not enough support. Rugby will stop at a 5th team. League and AFL are the major players, they dominate the winter months, can see both having 20 teams within 15 years.
October 26th 2009 @ 6:52pm
Pippinu said | October 26th 2009 @ 6:52pm | Report comment
Logic says that that point must eventually come.
But it might take a very long time.
All capital cities have people dedicated to no sport.
New population growth areas pop up out of nowhere every now and then – demographic shifts can occur to such an extent that one code or another becomes popular all of a sudden (Canberra went from being an aussie rules town from 1925 to 1980 to being a League/Union town, more or less, because of changes in internal immigration patterns).
Both League and soccer have looked to NZ for additional population centres to support teams – a process which may continue.
Who knows.
October 26th 2009 @ 7:04pm
bever fever said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:04pm | Report comment
I live in Perth and can tell you that RU is about three times the size of RL at junior/senior level without including the Force. ( although the force has increased player rates)
RU has always been bigger than RL here, our local junior footy club probably has more juniors than RL has in the entire Perth region.
RL where i live is completely dominated by Kiwis at junior and senior level.
The only way a league club would work here and remain solvent would be if the Force left town.
October 26th 2009 @ 7:06pm
M1tch said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:06pm | Report comment
RL where i live is completely dominated by Kiwis at junior and senior level.
Is that a bad thing?
October 26th 2009 @ 7:14pm
bever fever said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:14pm | Report comment
It is when the general feeling is that the islander boys seem so much bigger at a younger age than white aussies which then leads people to think twice about letting their kids play.
October 26th 2009 @ 7:18pm
Dogs Of War said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:18pm | Report comment
I believe their are some more versions of League on the horizon that are looking at this element of the game (Weight divisions?)
That said, Touch footy and Oztag exist for this very reason, and have plenty of participants.
October 28th 2009 @ 6:40pm
M1tch said | October 28th 2009 @ 6:40pm | Report comment
agree about the weight division..
October 26th 2009 @ 7:09pm
Dogs Of War said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:09pm | Report comment
You never know. League is much simpler for an audience to follow which is a major advantage when trying to engage the armchair supporter.
So juniors may be a little lacking, but as long as League can get the audience of the TV, it really doesn’t matter how many are playing the game. Would be interesting to see how many play touch or oztag in WA. That would be a better barometer of the interest in the sport.
Not to mention that League offers a lot more opportunities to earn money, and I think change of game for those playing Union currently may occur just due to that.
October 26th 2009 @ 7:11pm
M1tch said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:11pm | Report comment
Agree, and having the team play at a league ground will be so much better than the days at the waca
October 26th 2009 @ 7:32pm
bever fever said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:32pm | Report comment
I think touch footy is fairly popular, most people in WA are open to most sports and league certainly does have its followers, but a NRL team here would certainly have its challenges cut out.
October 26th 2009 @ 7:43pm
oikee said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:43pm | Report comment
The Wallabies and cricket team, you get wheeled out in a chair before someone retires, Rugby League has got a production line for players at international level now. This could be the turning point we were looking for, with all the islanders now playing, they are also getting to play for their country. The NRL is not far off being a powerhouse. You only had to look no further than the crowds flocking back to the game, the World cup has changed everything.
They can joke about a 12 thousand crowd at the stoop, but that was a record league crowd for them. After what they had witnessed, i dont think it will be the last time they attend a match.
October 26th 2009 @ 7:50pm
danwighton said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:50pm | Report comment
Thats true, record crowd – it drew more people than the socceroos v nigeria in London, even though it was played in soccer heartland and there were several EPL players on display.
October 26th 2009 @ 7:31pm
oikee said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:31pm | Report comment
I will tell you one thing Beaver, if rugby league expands to Perth, union will suffer big time. What you have to remember is with league, you also get a instant under 20′s comp. So juniors would flock to league, some are on 100 thousand contrack’s at the age of 15.
League these days is big bussiness, why do you think so many area’s want a team. So Perth will definately be a area of expansion. I heard Giteau could be a major signing for the Perth Team. Dont be suprissed to see SBW back also, maybe another Perth signing.
October 26th 2009 @ 7:45pm
danwighton said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:45pm | Report comment
Giteau’s dad played league for the Raiders, and while a lot has been written about him wanting to leave union, one of his main concerns is said to be leaving Australia (like Lote). But having said that, he would be at least 29/30 by the time a Perth team was admitted (best case scenario).
The under 20s comp is a huge plus for league, and ensures reasonably good pay and exposure for a lot of the under-20s talent from either rugby code.
Either way, theres more RL infrastructure in Perth than there was in Melbourne, so it wont be as much of a hard sell as it was there.
October 26th 2009 @ 8:05pm
Pete said | October 26th 2009 @ 8:05pm | Report comment
Giteau wants to leave Union? No he wants to leave Australia and play Union in Europe post 2011
I also recall Gallop saying that SBW will never be allowed to play in the NRL
October 26th 2009 @ 8:10pm
danwighton said | October 26th 2009 @ 8:10pm | Report comment
Gallop recanted on that – he did initially say it but he recanted to say “he will not be able to play for the time in which he would have been contracted to the bulldogs” so in around 2 years, he will be able to come back – if he wants to and if anyone wants to sign him.
Youre probably right about Giteau – I think he would be a great league convert but if he wants to leave, the money would be much better in europe, and the standard of play would be much lower.
October 26th 2009 @ 7:46pm
Dogs Of War said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:46pm | Report comment
SBW would be a waste of dollars for WA. He just doesn’t have the name that side of the country that would put bums on seats. Better of focusing on building a team that could win more than it loses. Unlike AFL, their are no leg ups in Rugby League.
October 26th 2009 @ 7:58pm
danwighton said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:58pm | Report comment
I think it would be a good idea to give some concessions to developing teams – theres nothing like a winning team to get fans interested. It makes Melbourne’s achievements even more amazing considering they had no special circumstances from the NRL.
October 26th 2009 @ 8:33pm
Dogs Of War said | October 26th 2009 @ 8:33pm | Report comment
Some things the AFL do like allowing teams extra room under the cap are just wrong. Really no one expects a new team to come out of the blocks firing, what they do expect is that you build a team with a view to the future, and make sure you model the setup of the club off the leading clubs in the game.
October 26th 2009 @ 8:36pm
danwighton said | October 26th 2009 @ 8:36pm | Report comment
But if the team comes out firing, and is more likely to make the finals/win premierships early on, it goes a long way to winning the war for fans, even though you are hurting the other teams.
October 26th 2009 @ 8:45pm
Dogs Of War said | October 26th 2009 @ 8:45pm | Report comment
Yeah, hurting the other teams. You know, those fans who have been supporting the game for a lot longer. A new team needs to engage the community for support, success will come in time, and you only have to look at the Melbourne Storm to know that success on the field doesn’t mean success off the field.
October 26th 2009 @ 8:49pm
GaryGnu said | October 26th 2009 @ 8:49pm | Report comment
Dan,
The Storm did get to pick the best bits of the carcasses of Western Reds (Howe and Kearns) and Hunter Mariners (Kimmorley).
Those two unlamented teams were killed off so that the Storm may be born and ultimately thrive (at least on the field).
October 26th 2009 @ 8:57pm
Dogs Of War said | October 26th 2009 @ 8:57pm | Report comment
Don’t forget Scott Hill. Melbourne also recruited rather smartly by getting Glen Lazurus to give their pack a leader.
October 26th 2009 @ 9:00pm
AndyRoo said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:00pm | Report comment
And Robbie Ross, they basically got close to first dibs on Mariners, Rams and Reds players. 3 teams.
October 26th 2009 @ 9:00pm
danwighton said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:00pm | Report comment
Sure – and while you dont want to hurt the fans, the game needs to grow into new markets. If you can provide concessions to do this, then it assists in this process. I think it needs to be a balanced approach – and in the end, if the game doesnt expand, it will be attacked by overseas rugby and afl, and will go the way of the NBL.
RL is Australia needs to grow so that it can pay players similar amounts to overseas RU, and can spend the amount of money on junior development that the AFL does.
October 26th 2009 @ 9:10pm
Dogs Of War said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:10pm | Report comment
RL in Australia, like any other sports that have a presence overseas, will never be able to compete with the dollars available elsewhere. So the NRL has to offer different things to keep players in the game here. The main one is being able to play for your local team. A big selling point when you don’t have to move away from your family. RU on the other hand, makes it a condition to play for Australia, that you have to play in the Super 14. So their are various ways to keep people playing the game for the game, and not for the money (though it will always be a consideration).
As for offering incentives to new teams. Just having a team should be reward enough for a new market. I don’t understand why all the other supporters of the code should wear it. It may be considered par for the course in AFL land, but anywhere else in the world, it would be laughed down. Why would you want to get behind a team that’s success is built on insurmountable financial advantage? I know I wouldn’t. Keep that in mind West Sydney Wanabees AFL club.
October 26th 2009 @ 9:12pm
GaryGnu said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:12pm | Report comment
Andy,
The Rams still existed in the first year of the Storms existence. I had the dubios pleasure of watching their games at a cold and lonely Adelaide Oval, Whyalla (yes Whyalla!!) and most depressingly Hindmarsh Stadium (they beat my Tigers 52-0) with only West End beer to keep me warm.
October 26th 2009 @ 9:26pm
AndyRoo said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:26pm | Report comment
Sorry gary how could I forget. The storm didn’t get Graham Appo so they obviosly didn’t get all the rams best players
I agree with Dogs about instant success, there is nothing endearing about instant success. Would you rather be supporting the Nth Qld Fury or GCU.
I guess the AFL’s plan is based on youth so they will have a few so so years before they come good. That seems an allright plan but I don’t know how many NSW players will be in the team. If there are not a lot then I dont know why someone wouldn’t just support the swans instead.
October 26th 2009 @ 9:29pm
Dogs Of War said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:29pm | Report comment
AFL’s plan is also based on a $1 million dollar salary cap advantage as well as youth.
October 27th 2009 @ 11:36am
Redb said | October 27th 2009 @ 11:36am | Report comment
Dogs,
You keep harping on about incentives for new teams, you fail to realise that new teams especially in non heartland areas require success or else they will struggle/fail. Witness the number of failed RL franchises, Bris Bears in AFL, the problems the A League will have with 2-3 clubs, etc.
When the NRL is fully independent and no longer has News Ltd willing to bankroll a club like Melb Storm, they will find out the hard way that without success , crowds fall off, merchandise declines, TV ratings fall,etc.
New teams need to create a consicousness amongst fans beyond just diehards (and expats) unless the base initially is huge.
It is a fickle sporting market with many teams and choices.
New clubs are at huge disadvantage when it comes to rusted on support, structures within the sports club from recruitment and talent identifcation pathways that in some cases have been going on for decades and cultures that 100 years in the making.
It is smart to give these clubs an edge in recruitment to balance out the traditional clubs advantages at least until they’re bedded down.
Redb
October 26th 2009 @ 9:19pm
James said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:19pm | Report comment
Oikee seems to think a Perth RL team is a done deal. The Western Reds failed, and that was before the Force came to town…
October 26th 2009 @ 9:22pm
Dogs Of War said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:22pm | Report comment
Did they? That’s overlooking the Super League war which is what brought about their demise. A Perth team will be back within the next 10 years. Plenty of room for everyone in Perth.
October 26th 2009 @ 9:47pm
oikee said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:47pm | Report comment
I dont think Perth will be in, I know they will be in. If you want to be seen or heard in this country , you must have a rugby league team. I have not even thought about Perth except for expansion. As a matter of fact, i thought someone had miss-spelt Earth.
If Perth wants to be part of the country, they need a rugby league team. I do allow for them to be slow on the up-take, wasn’t it Perth (W.A) the last state to become a state of Australia, or at least the one holding up proceedings.
October 26th 2009 @ 11:42pm
ren said | October 26th 2009 @ 11:42pm | Report comment
and we even tried to leave. referendum for independance was won by the yes vote in the 20′s, but westminster refused to get involved in foreign affairs, odd that we needed to go to england to seceed
October 26th 2009 @ 11:39pm
Working Class Rugger said | October 26th 2009 @ 11:39pm | Report comment
You wouldn’t live in Rockingham would you, Bever?
October 26th 2009 @ 11:40pm
bever fever said | October 26th 2009 @ 11:40pm | Report comment
Nope
October 27th 2009 @ 11:25am
Bankstown Boy said | October 27th 2009 @ 11:25am | Report comment
Haha I do mate, born in bankstown learnt my league growing up in the ‘gong before moving to Rockingham, WA where i played with Rockigham Raiders (intially the South Coast Radiers).
It has its elements (trust me), but its got a lot of expat english and kiwis out here and has been a hotbeg of league activity
October 26th 2009 @ 7:35pm
bever fever said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:35pm | Report comment
Personally think the central coast is where the NRL should base a team.
October 26th 2009 @ 7:48pm
danwighton said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:48pm | Report comment
I think the Sharks should move while they still have the chance – Melbourne got more to their prelim final than the Sharks did, and Melbourne had their game on the same day as the AFL GF. I dont really see a lot of potential for growth with Cronulla – geographically they’re fenced in by the bulldogs, the dragons and the sea.
October 26th 2009 @ 7:59pm
Dogs Of War said | October 26th 2009 @ 7:59pm | Report comment
Crunch time will occur next season for the Sharks. I don’t expect them to gain a sponsor in the offseason, so it will come down to how they perform on the field. A poor start could see the writing on the wall pretty early.
October 26th 2009 @ 8:07pm
danwighton said | October 26th 2009 @ 8:07pm | Report comment
My Brother is a massive sharks fan, and while he would hate to see them go, it just seems like they are by far the most likely candidate. I think it will happen, but im not sure whether it will be through natural attrition or the NRL making a decision – I think they should avoid the latter by moving to Perth.
The Perth Sharks has a pretty good ring to it.
Either that, or they could merge with the Dragons, making the: St George Illawarra Cronulla-Sutherland Dragon Sharks.
Lets hope that doesnt happen.
October 26th 2009 @ 8:26pm
LT80 said | October 26th 2009 @ 8:26pm | Report comment
Perth Sharks? Terrible idea, sorry to say. Do you think a failed Sydney side will win over the the West Australians? Will Cronulla members like it? It’s lose all round!
Perth has the Reds, and the Sharks are from Cronulla-Sutherland. It’s funny that no-one ever suggests relocating their own side….
If Cronulla can’t survive in the NRL they can return to the State league, just like Newtown and Norths.
October 26th 2009 @ 8:29pm
Dogs Of War said | October 26th 2009 @ 8:29pm | Report comment
Cronulla needs to move to an area that hasn’t had a team before, and isn’t likely to have one soon. Wellington, Sunshine Coast and Ipswitch all cry out as potential areas where the Sharks could flourish.
October 26th 2009 @ 8:34pm
danwighton said | October 26th 2009 @ 8:34pm | Report comment
My side was norths – and I was happy for them to relocate to the Central Coast in the late 90s – especially considering they built the stadium!
I agree that people want their own team, and while that would be ideal, I think if the sharks want to survive in some form, a move to Perth could be the way. It would also guarantee some form of support outside Perth – the way South Melbourne and Fitzroy supporters support their relocated/merged teams.
It would be a shame, considering the infrastructure and support that the sharks have, for them to drop to the state league and never be seen again.
October 26th 2009 @ 9:29pm
ren said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:29pm | Report comment
once from the east always from the east. I want a WA team not some transplanted failure from the eastern states. Bring back the Reds!!!
October 26th 2009 @ 8:17pm
JF said | October 26th 2009 @ 8:17pm | Report comment
Perth, Adelaide, Wellington?
This pissing contest with AFL will seriously harm the NRL brand, give teams to the heartlands if you want to strengthen the NRL. In Central Queensland RL is no.1 with daylight second, schoolboy RL gets more coverage than first grade RU, AFL and Soccer.
October 26th 2009 @ 8:28pm
Dogs Of War said | October 26th 2009 @ 8:28pm | Report comment
Perth and Wellington can be considered viable area’s to expand to. Adelaide is really just a dot on the map. Nothing more.
That all said, you need to have a team in the area to get a presence on the TV. Even if it’s just highlights of the game, it’s more than those areas may get now.
October 26th 2009 @ 8:35pm
danwighton said | October 26th 2009 @ 8:35pm | Report comment
Another thing is press coverage- for the media to cover a team, they need a local connection. There is no such thing in Perth and Adelaide. In cairns, we get greater coverage of the basketball than we do of AFL – purely because we have a team in the national league.
October 26th 2009 @ 8:59pm
Dogs Of War said | October 26th 2009 @ 8:59pm | Report comment
One of the reason’s I keep coming back to the NRL taking 1 home game off each team, and using it to gain a presence in markets they don’t have a team in. Just doing this will ensure that the game gets on TV.
October 26th 2009 @ 9:12pm
danwighton said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:12pm | Report comment
Thats a great idea if you can get CH 9 to agree to put the game on the TV. The NQ Sharks game did pretty well in Adelaide this year, considering the teams involved.
A way you could get the clubs to agree to it would be to add another round to the competition. Players and coaches would hate it, but clubs would love it if they could get more money.
October 26th 2009 @ 8:57pm
oikee said | October 26th 2009 @ 8:57pm | Report comment
Thats funny, according to AFL fans, Cairns is a huge AFL base.
Rugby leagues next major growth area is Cable t/v America.
Put a team in PNG and we instantly are the biggest code.
To be honest, all i do know is we need more teams to cater for all the new talent we have. Perth seems like a nice place to live, put a team their and they can import some of the overseas talent, Islands, Africa, England. Bring the bears back. And forget NZ, they all live in OZ now anyhow.
October 26th 2009 @ 9:03pm
danwighton said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:03pm | Report comment
I think we need to be careful though – we want to grow slowly so that we dont have another 1995. 4 teams in one year seems crazy now.
The AFL spends more money than league in development in Cairns – we used to get several visits from the Auskick people when I was at school. We thought it was great, we would get a free football to play league with. I got mine signed by Jason Taylor – he thought it was strange. But having said that, league dominance cant remain forever if the AFL continues to throw that kind of money around.
October 26th 2009 @ 9:07pm
Pippinu said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:07pm | Report comment
oikee
don’t exaggerate – no one says AFL is huge in Cairns, we say it has a decent presence.
League will attract a decent crowd to a pre-season game up there, and an AFL game attracts a few thousand less – and that’s pretty much how things stand.
October 26th 2009 @ 9:10pm
danwighton said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:10pm | Report comment
There are many Victorians in Cairns, and they have done a lot to build the game up there in recent years. The cowboys and state of origin are league’s big trump cards, but AFL has a presence.
October 26th 2009 @ 9:12pm
bever fever said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:12pm | Report comment
There’s around 1000 juniors playing Aussie rules in Cairns (excluding auskick) , thats a hell of a lot of Victiorian families ( irony intended)
October 26th 2009 @ 9:15pm
Dogs Of War said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:15pm | Report comment
Plenty of my mates who live in Cairns play both sports, or play AFL on the weekends and then play Oztag/Touch footy during the week. Different environment where you really do want to get out and about.
October 26th 2009 @ 9:16pm
Pippinu said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:16pm | Report comment
where do you keep finding these stats??
October 26th 2009 @ 9:22pm
bever fever said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:22pm | Report comment
http://www.cairns.com.au/article/2009/02/10/27885_junior-sport.html
http://www.sportingpulse.com/assoc_page.cgi?client=1-3392-0-0-0&sID=114216&&news_task=DETAIL&articleID=8128570§ionID=114216
I love Cairns spent some time their in the early 80′s, always remember Austentacious (spelling) being arrested on stage by QLD police for swearing, caused a brawl.
Always a popular footy destination for southerners wanting a game in the tropics.
October 26th 2009 @ 9:36pm
danwighton said | October 26th 2009 @ 9:36pm | Report comment
Sure thing – they’re working hard to build it and are getting some results – but I was just pointing out that none of us knew much about AFL when growing up. When I was at school, AFL was in the “non-contact sport” column.
October 27th 2009 @ 7:44am
Redb said | October 27th 2009 @ 7:44am | Report comment
The Cairns Post recently featured the winners of the local Grand Finals , both Aussie Rules and RL on the front page with team shots. It’s Auskick and much more. The Cazaly Ground is of good standard holds about 10,000 and is a good platform for Nth QLD , PNG and Pacific Islands growth.
Cairns stopped being a typical Nth QLD sugar town a long time ago and is booming population wise. Tourism suffering a little at the minute.
Redb