NRL will become biggest code in Australia
By Paul J, 29 Oct 2009 The Crowd is a Roar Guru
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There are three reasons why I believe the NRL may eventually draw even with, and even surpass, the AFL in popularity: they are Australian population projections, the geographic history of Australia’s football codes, and New Zealand.
I’m not predicting this to happen any time soon. It will probably take up to 20 years or even more.
Before I go into these three points in a more detail, allow me to give my views on why the AFL currently enjoys its position as the number one football code in Australia.
Australian Rules has been historically a game played in Victoria, Western Australia, South Australia and Tasmania, while rugby league has been historically played in NSW and Qld.
Going by the Australian Bureau of Statistic state populations at the end of the March Quarter 2009, the current population of the four AFL states combined gives you 9,746,900 people, while the current population of the two NRL states combined gives you 11,456,900.
(I have not included the territories as they don’t have a dominant code and have comparatively small populations).
With this kind of population supremacy, why is the NRL not already ahead of the AFL? The answer is the AFL’s huge lead in expansion, which has been created by it’s far superior leadership model.
The AFL has complete dominance over the NRL in WA, SA and Tasmania, while having near dominance in Victoria with the NRL’s Melbourne Storm being the only NRL team in AFL territory and having been around for only 11 years.
Conversely, the NRL has yet to grant all its licenses in NSW and QLD, while the Sydney Swans and Brisbane Lions are well established and supported and have already been in Sydney and Brisbane/Gold Coast for 27 and 22 years respectively.
The clear lead in expansion is not the only advantage that the AFL currently enjoys.
The AFL earned $780m from its last TV broadcast deal and the NRL received only $550m.
The extra $230m has allowed the AFL to have aggressive marketing and junior development campaigns in NSW and QLD and has allowed it to fund the hugely expensive task of further increasing its expansion lead with new teams going into Western Sydney and the Gold Coast.
Most, if not all of this, can be put down to the AFL being run by the excellent leadership model of an independent commission. The gap between the codes’ leadership is pronounced and has been for years.
This has been the most important factor in the AFL’s domination.
If the AFL had a 16 year head start with expansion, it has at least a 24 year lead with its leadership model. The AFL got its independent commission in 1985, while the NRL is hoping to have one finally up and running by next year.
Even if the AFL only had the advantage of its independent commission’s leadership over rugby league’s in-house fighting between the ARL, NSWRL, CRL, QRL and the clubs themselves, it would have already been significant.
But rugby league has had to endure the Super League war and News Ltd, which has greatly held back the game while the AFL has gone from strength to strength.
Rupert Murdoch’s attempt to buy rugby league for his Pay TV network and the damage this has done to rugby league over the last 14 years can not be overstated and would be an article in itself.
The two codes could hardly have had more contrasting direction from their leadership.
So if this is the state of the games now, how can rugby league hope to ever catch up?
This comes back to my 3 points which are listed below.
But firstly, for these 3 points to come into effect, rugby league will need to compete on a much more even playing field. And rugby league will finally get this with its own independent commission and its future TV broadcast deals.
Rugby league’s independent commission is reported to be based on the successful AFL and NFL models, and though teething problems should be expected, it will be an easier transition than the AFL had as the NRL can learn from the AFL and NFL’s previous initial mistakes and there will be little interference from the league community.
With the introduction of a second Friday night game on Channel Nine, the Monday night game on Foxtel, and success of the Gold Coast Titans, rugby league has had an increase in TV ratings in Australia and New Zealand over the last three years and has closed the gap on the AFL.
This means that never again will the AFL enjoy a $230 million advantage over the NRL, with future TV broadcast deals.
The NRL will be able to compete on a more even playing field in regards to marketing, junior development, expansion and the overall running of the game.
So here are the three points:
Point 1. Australia’s Population Projections.
The Australian Bureau of Statistics made population projections in June 2007 for all Australian States and territories for the year 2056.
NSW 10,200,000
Qld 8,700,000
Victoria 8,500,000
WA 4,300,000
SA 2,200,000
Tasmania 571,000
The projected population of the four AFL States combined now gives you 15,571,000 people, while the projected population of the two NRL states combined gives you 18,900,000.
The rugby league States’ current population is 1,710,000 more than the AFL States.
By 2056, it will be 3,329,000 more.
If you’re not that patient, using the same projections, in 20 years it will be 2,288,200 more.
These are significant numbers and I haven’t included any population figures from New Zealand (more on New Zealand later).
Despite the NRL having numerical supremacy in population, the AFL is currently the bigger code due to its superior expansion and bigger bank account.
But if the NRL, through similar leadership, has its own future expansion to rival the AFL and a more even purse to spend equivalent amounts on marketing and junior development, then how is the AFL supposed to remain dominate with such an increase in population in the rugby league heartland?
If it becomes a more even playing field, it simply comes down to weight of numbers. This is the most important point in this article.
It means if the AFL are to remain clear leaders, there will be more pressure on the AFL’s current and future expansion in Sydney, Brisbane, Western Sydney and the Gold Coast than there will be on future NRL expansion into the Central Coast, Central Qld, Wellington, Sunshine Coast, Brisbane, Perth, Adelaide (or wherever the independent commission decides to go).
Obviously if the AFL states were projected to close the gap or even pass the rugby league States’ populations in the future, I wouldn’t consider it possible for rugby league to catch the AFL.
Point 2. The football codes geographic history.
Even though there is room for growth for all football codes in all States and territories, it is a very safe bet to suggest Australian Rules will continue to dominate Victoria, Western Australia, South Australia, and Tasmania and rugby league will continue to dominate NSW and Qld.
This is how it has been for over 100 years.
As already stated, the AFL is ahead due to its expansion being ahead of the NRL. Regardless of this, the current and future expansion plans and any amount of future junior development from both codes will not change the basic status quo formed over the last century.
The AFL still has plenty of room for growing the game, and the NRL has plenty more (due to currently being so far behind in expansion). But both codes can only go so far away from their own backyard.
Point 3. New Zealand.
One huge advantage the NRL has over the AFL is New Zealand.
Australian Rules can be a very fast flowing and exciting game, but Henry Ford himself could not sell Australia’s indigenous game to a New Zealander.
Rugby league, however, has been in New Zealand for over a century and the potential growth for the game there is enormous.
When State of Origin was about to play its first game in 1980, many in the rugby league community felt the concept was doomed as Queensland would not be able to compete.
There were enough Queenslanders playing in Sydney at the time to prove them wrong.
There has been as many Kiwis in the NRL as Queenslanders for a few years now and long gone are the days that New Zealand would compete against Australia for 50 minutes before fading to lose by twenty plus points.
Kiwi victories at the Tri Nations in 2006, World Cup in 2008, and an unlucky draw in the four nations game this week have shown that even with the perennial underdog tag, the Kiwis can compete with the Kangaroos.
This competitiveness will help rugby league in New Zealand because, if there is one thing Kiwis love to do, it is beat the Aussies at any sport.
After the next TV rights deal, there will be a huge increase in junior development and marketing for rugby league in Australia. New Zealand should expect the same.
The Warriors have been an excellent addition to the NRL. The Wellington Orcas may have lost to the Titans in the last NRL expansion bid, but it is highly likely they will be in the NRL at some point in the future.
While rugby will always be king in New Zealand, the Kiwis will play an increasingly bigger role in the future of Rugby League. Television ratings in New Zealand for Warriors and Orcas games as well as State of Origin and Test matches will be crucial.
(A side note: New Zealand’s population in 2006 was 4,184,600. By 2031 it is projected to be 5,416,400 and by 2056 to be 6,389,200).
So there are the three reasons why I believe rugby league can catch AFL.
Of course, I am not predicting the decline or even stagnation of the AFL, just big things for rugby league.
Recommend this story.
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October 29th 2009 @ 7:39am
Paul J said | October 29th 2009 @ 7:39am | Report comment
I wasn’t intending to have a go at the AFL – it’s a great game – just to give an optimistic view for the NRL fans. It is hard though to give a positive prediction for one code without it seeming like another “code war” opinion.
While I think some of the points are pretty fail safe such as the projected population figures, the crucial points about the NRL getting its own independent commission and a much better TV broadcast deal are only widely predicted and not guaranteed.
And there are points that are only speculative. That the migration to Qld will mean they all join the majority in their sporting allegiance. That RL will continue to grow in NZ. That the new NRL leadership will not make some really ball calls (one drawback here for the AFL leadership is that in doing such a great job they have given a road map for the other codes to follow).
And of course who knows how big Rugby and in particular football will be in 20 years?
I do agree on the sentiment that as long as a code is healthy that is more important on bragging rights about who has the bigger TV audience, crowd figures or merchandise sales.
I will say it will take a very long time for the average NRL crowd to be bigger that the AFLs, probably never, the crowd support the AFL gets in the southern states is truly amazing.
October 29th 2009 @ 9:32am
Michael C said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:32am | Report comment
good point re the speculative improvements,
the commission as an example…..it may be several years for it to get ‘bedded’ down, and start having a positive impact,
but, llike most of these issues,
for people to project forward for a single code – the thing in Australia is that time doesn’t stand still for the other codes. Any cause and effect modelling is subject to the activities of other codes, not necessarily in quashing plans….but, ……more in the limitations (artificial, real or imagined).
October 30th 2009 @ 11:46am
Kick to kick said | October 30th 2009 @ 11:46am | Report comment
This analysis is interesting but misses some major factors. Demographics are more complex than just polulation numbers. AFL has cross gender and cross class appeal in AFL states. Women make up about 50% of club membership and a club like the West Coast Eagles binds stockbrocker and brickie’s apprentice alike. Rugby League remains locked into male appeal and its class warfare with Union, both of which are limiting factors. This is one reason the AFL in Western Sydney has some prospects, especially in terms of getting kids to play. Mums get turned off by the League’s macho imagery and League’s class connotations limits its appeal to upwardly mobile migrants. This is also a limiting factor for League in NZ where the code is also very working class. Most NZers support the ALL Blacks , whereas League has a limited heartland in Auckland’s tougher suburbs.
In this gender/class context soccer is the threat to the AFL , not a resurgent NRL. The AFL is vulnerabile, but primarily because of its lack of international competition and the fact that it doesn’t work well on TV for those unfamiliar with the code.
Incidentally I know several NZers living in Australia, former Union supporters who dislike the private school, well heeled atmoshpere of Union here. Instead of turning to the NRL they have become AFL converts.
October 30th 2009 @ 11:56am
Pippinu said | October 30th 2009 @ 11:56am | Report comment
Good post K to K
wanna wax?
November 1st 2009 @ 7:14pm
Dan said | November 1st 2009 @ 7:14pm | Report comment
I think you’ll find that the “class divide” is far less pronounced than this in reality… I went to a public school that was more than a little working class and we only played union, while the well off catholic private school up the road played league. Moreover, generally most of us kids played both. The “private school boys brigade” view of union certainly has its evidence with the richest schools always playing union, but once you move on from those very limited few, the picture is far less clear. Half the rugby players in NSW come from Public schools, and there are a tonne of NRL players who went to private schools. As for the fans, well everywhere I’ve been in NSW rugby league has a pretty wide supporters base which includes women. Importantly, I’ve worked in hospitals and found large numbers of nurses who support an NRL sides and more than a few doctors (though it is true that they definitely have a tendency to prefer Union on the whole). Generally speaking the NRL is the only true full spectrum supporters sport in NSW despite its “macho working class culture”. Union suffers more because of it’s mismanagement, its incomprehensible rule structure and the heavy reliance on kicking (and by extension the mysterious and contentious calls of often foreign referees) than any class distaste. In fact, most dyed in the wool League people I know say they would watch more Union if only there weren’t so many penalties and scrum resets and had more running like in the days of its ascendancy.
On a final note, there was a headline only a couple months ago on the NZ herald that read along these lines: “Sick of boring play in Rugby? Watch the NRL finals” (can’t remember it exactly but that was the gist).
November 1st 2009 @ 7:24pm
danwighton said | November 1st 2009 @ 7:24pm | Report comment
I think the class divide stuff is much more prevalent to hardcore followers of each game – the majority of my friends are less hardcore, more casual fans (unlike me it seems), and they are keen to talk about either game in the same breath.
November 3rd 2009 @ 7:27am
tomo said | November 3rd 2009 @ 7:27am | Report comment
I agree that most NZers support the all blacks and league has historically been limited to Auckland’s tougher suburbs.
However, in recent times there has been a noticeable uplift in support for league for those of the younger generation. I am from NZ and the majority of people I speak to prefer league (and given the discussion above re: classes, I note that I mainly associate with non-working class people). Many comment that league’s product is much more enjoyable than union’s product. If the Kiwis (and in particular, the Warriors) continue to perform well, then this will trend will no doubt continue. The Warriors have the potential to be nation’s biggest domestic sporting team (if they are not already in terms of TV viewership) behind the All Blacks. The other thing about league is that its production line produces star player after star player and these players are extremely well known and revered in NZ.
On the other hand, union is more entranched in the older generation and league’s playing numbers have gone backwards in recent times.
November 24th 2009 @ 2:13pm
jake said | November 24th 2009 @ 2:13pm | Report comment
Agreed Tomo.
Theres definatley has been a trend occurring in NZ since the early 2000s witch shows that Leagues popularity is increasing and Unions is decreasing heres an interesting article from Chris Rattue showing how his attitudes are changing.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/league/news/article.cfm?c_id=79&objectid=10599966&pnum=2
For most members of the younger generation in Auckland League is the preferred code and the Warriors there team. And when your team plays 24 games in a even, world class competition week in week out it is easier to become emotionally connected. As opposed to the All Blacks who play half a dozen internationals a year and the entire nation turns on them when they loose!!
A post from earlier in this thread:
“Incidentally I know several NZers living in Australia, former Union supporters who dislike the private school, well heeled atmoshpere of Union here. Instead of turning to the NRL they have become AFL converts.”
I have met about 50-60 Kiwis living in Melbourne the home of AFL and no one iv met likes it. In Fact they think its the most bizzare game they have ever seen and refuse to watch it!!!
October 29th 2009 @ 8:12am
Matt S said | October 29th 2009 @ 8:12am | Report comment
I don’t have confidence in our media to assist the NRL in its growth. Over the last few years I have noticed obvious support for the AFL at rugby league’s expense. the latest pack rape allegations against an AFL club are an example. This was a serious offense and includes virtual kidnapping yet The Australian gave scant coverage and news services in primetime made no mention in QLD, atleast. Any articles were small and made no reference to AFL. If this had been a league club it would have made national headlines and comments from the NRL would have been sought. The fact the AFL CEO admits covering up scandals as little as 5 years ago would have had the media calling fore Gallop’s head.
Other incidents that warranted national public debate/scrutiny from AFL scandals didn’t eventuate. An under 16 brawl in league seems so trivial compared to the harrowing night it was alledged these women endured.
October 29th 2009 @ 8:39am
M1tch said | October 29th 2009 @ 8:39am | Report comment
media treatment towards RL wont change, the people who are in the media hate what the game stands for and will attack at will.
Can just imagine the Pollies, mothers groups and current affair shows doing the rounds if the rape story was a RL club. Where is the question of ‘culture’ in aussie rules?
Sadly RL biggest obsticle will always be the media and how they report about the game in general.
October 29th 2009 @ 9:08am
James said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:08am | Report comment
I am not sure where you are going with this. For starters, the pack rape allegations where not against an “AFLClub”, they were against an a bunch of amateurs in a suburban competition.
This was BIG News in Melbourne…Andrew Demetriou was on the front foot saying how appalled he was, and the Age and Herald Sun covered it in depth. But it was not an AFL club…had it been, it would have been a lot more seriouos. (as it would have been had it been against an NRL club – rather than a suburban rugby leage team)
Now, as to whether the Daily Telegraph and the Sydney Morning Herald choose the carry the story, well that is up to them. But many people say that the AFL has complete media control in Melbourne. Please explain to me then how the media in Melbourne made a big deal of this, and the media in Sydney barely mentioned it??
Are you saying the AFL has the muzzle on the Daily Telegraph as well?? I don’t get your argument
October 29th 2009 @ 10:11am
Redb said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:11am | Report comment
Correct James. Matt S carries a huge anti AFL chip on his shoulders.
The story was carried online at least in the DT, SMH and Courier Mail. This bloke wants blood and the AFL removed from the landscape. Sad really.
Much of the negative NRL press rarely gets into the Melbourne, Adelaide or Perth media a fact many are unaware of.
Just becuase its big news in Sydney doesn’t necessarily make it to the same level of saturation nationally.
Redb
October 29th 2009 @ 10:23am
M1tch said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:23am | Report comment
The mud wont stick to the sport like it would to RL
October 29th 2009 @ 10:33am
Redb said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:33am | Report comment
Based on the NSW press love affair with Cousins and Carey I’d say that is wrong.
The Daily Telegraph in particular has been using the media against the AFL in recent years, the amount of vitriol thrust at AFL footy by RL folk from Sydney would suggest it is indeed sticking.
Redb
October 29th 2009 @ 10:40am
M1tch said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:40am | Report comment
same for afl people towards RL, but ask mothers why ‘culture’ of football they find bad?
99% will say RL
its funny, looking at a list of afl incidents the past few years and how people re-act to it..and yet people in perth still laugh at RL fans and bring up Hopoate, mention cousins and then they try to justify what happened, those posters on his return, his apology were pathetic.
meh who cares about the media though, its funny how many said RL would die and yet, it recorded a amazing year on and also off the field.
November 5th 2009 @ 1:54pm
babyg said | November 5th 2009 @ 1:54pm | Report comment
It was an aussie rules club that attended the afl respect for women workshop. No different to the Arana Panthers or the Newtown Jets. M1tch is right.
November 5th 2009 @ 2:49pm
Michael C said | November 5th 2009 @ 2:49pm | Report comment
the qualifier on the ‘attended the AFL respect for women workshop’ is that I think it was the President and coach only, (definitely only 2 of the club hierarchy attended).
The big message coming through from this is the role of local club presidents etc in cascading such information effectively down through their club structures.
October 29th 2009 @ 8:27am
simon said | October 29th 2009 @ 8:27am | Report comment
Yeah, too hard to predict. While some codes may overtake others, there will always be a market for the four codes in this country. They’re all on the professional wave.
It’s hard to see AFL doing too much overseas. At least no more than basketball or American football do in AUS.
October 29th 2009 @ 8:37am
M1tch said | October 29th 2009 @ 8:37am | Report comment
I dont like using stats about the states that Rugby League is popular in.
Rugby League for sure can be number 1, I’m a one eyed Rugby league supporter but so much has to happen for that to happen.
October 29th 2009 @ 8:46am
RangerDick said | October 29th 2009 @ 8:46am | Report comment
“….rugby league will continue to dominate NSW and Qld. ”
I dont believe you can make this assumption just yet. NRL had a good year this year but over a 5 year context, the NRL is sliding backwards with reduced crowds, sponsorship, and appalling player behaviour. I think to make this assumption you need to wait another year or two to see whether this year was an outlier in the data or will become a continuing trend
October 29th 2009 @ 8:57am
M1tch said | October 29th 2009 @ 8:57am | Report comment
Reduced crowds? Hmm crowds at a all time high.
sponsorship? hmm Bears (not even in the NRL) have a major sponsor, Bulldogs are signed up long term, and people generally dont care about the player behavious (only mothers groups and current affair shows)
October 29th 2009 @ 9:17am
James said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:17am | Report comment
Your crowds are marginally higher then then they were in 1995
1995 ARL corwd average: 14,642
2009 NRL crowd average: 16,979
Source: Wikipedia
Yep, you are going places. Cronulla and South Sydney cant find a sponsor, and thats just 2 of the top of my head
You are right about 1 thing though..you are certainly one-eyed
October 29th 2009 @ 9:29am
James said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:29am | Report comment
Sorry…meant Sydney City…not South Sydney
October 29th 2009 @ 10:19am
M1tch said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:19am | Report comment
20 teams in 1995..
Super League war from 95-97
14 clubs in 2000
16 clubs in 2009
The game hasnt grown at the rate it should have because of a little thing called News LTD!
October 29th 2009 @ 11:46am
oikee said | October 29th 2009 @ 11:46am | Report comment
James, what you need to be worried about is not only the fact that the crowds are higher this year, but it was at that time 1995, that league was on the cusp of explossion, until super league hit. No the crowds are primed for rugby league,. The international games are growing wind, and the Indigernous game will unite half of Australia. (afl) will just have to wait for pre season.
the other half.
You really have no idea about international games, why do you think rugby union wont lie down in this country, its international game is huge, second to soccer.
People want to see internatiobal clashes. Its in their blood. You know, that rusty blood M.C keeps talking about.
October 29th 2009 @ 9:35am
RangerDick said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:35am | Report comment
no crowds arent at an all time high, they are simply up on last year. But last year was down from 5 years ago
October 29th 2009 @ 10:00am
The Link said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:00am | Report comment
Given that the sport pretty much canabalised itself in 95-97, the fact that its up at all is a great feat.
October 29th 2009 @ 10:06am
Robbos said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:06am | Report comment
That was 12 years ago!!!! The EPL was just the English League then not the worldwide Phenomenon it is now.
October 29th 2009 @ 10:20am
M1tch said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:20am | Report comment
Hmm Soccer..biggest Sport in England, RL mainly a 2 state game
October 29th 2009 @ 12:05pm
Michael C said | October 29th 2009 @ 12:05pm | Report comment
the aggregate crowd was an all time high, even beating the 1995 season with 28 more games by 2,000.
the match average is good – but, compared to 5 years ago, – the 12 extra season matches have brought an extra 120,000 in the gates.
compare to the HAL, with 11 extra games so far this year, has brought an extra 40,000 in the gates…..alas, 68K less than same time in V3.
November 5th 2009 @ 1:57pm
babyg said | November 5th 2009 @ 1:57pm | Report comment
You are the epitome of the niave afl supporter who believes everything that you hear by the media. Check you facts.
October 29th 2009 @ 8:52am
Bay35Pablo said | October 29th 2009 @ 8:52am | Report comment
bah humbug. 2 points:
1. The AFL has only just begun in NSW and Queensland, as shown by the planned GC and Western Sydney franchises. They are going to pour money into the 2 most popular states.
2. On NZ, by the same token RL has had 100 years to take over from union, like it did in NSW and Qld, and it hasn’t. If it hadn’t done it by the time professionalism came into union, it probably won’t do it within the next 20 years, if at all. Further, union and RL are arguably competing for much the same demographic and body types. AFL might find more of a niche in NZ.
October 29th 2009 @ 8:58am
M1tch said | October 29th 2009 @ 8:58am | Report comment
not really?
Union – majority white players
League – majority maori/pac island players
been that way for 100 years
October 29th 2009 @ 10:32am
Working Class Rugger said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:32am | Report comment
Suggest you actually watch anything to do with Kiwi Rugby. There are plenty of Moari and Islander’s playing. It actually a pretty even spread. In fact at the highest levels you’d probably find the majority falls into your suggested League demographic.
October 29th 2009 @ 10:36am
M1tch said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:36am | Report comment
taking the majority and the cliche targets for league and union
plenty of islander players in union and now coming through some great white players in league, but yeh no doubt majoirty of league players from NZ would be of maori/islander heritage
October 29th 2009 @ 2:28pm
mitzter said | October 29th 2009 @ 2:28pm | Report comment
“Union – majority white players
League – majority maori/pac island players
been that way for 100 years”
100 years? Your not doing yourself service with arguments like that? How do you base that generalisation?
October 29th 2009 @ 3:31pm
M1tch said | October 29th 2009 @ 3:31pm | Report comment
sadly i havent been to NZ to follow this up
but listening to league and union officals, coaches and players thats how its said..
perhaps I shouldnt have added the 100 years part
October 29th 2009 @ 10:14am
Michael C said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:14am | Report comment
In Union….you’d almost want you 7′s squad to x-train in AFL in the off season?? (like they do in NZ!!)
October 29th 2009 @ 11:59am
oikee said | October 29th 2009 @ 11:59am | Report comment
Hate to tell you this Pablo, but the NRL has already concered NZ. Have a look some time, half of there players are in the NRL, and it will grow over their fast now. Your world cup Champions are leading the charge. I was just thinking about the guys left out of the squad, injured. The Beast, Chewarkie.Asotasi and we have a flyer called Folou sitting out the tournie.
No mate, disagree with you their, NZ has the players to build league over their, kiwis love winners, and these lads are the real deal.
As for AFL just starting out in our 2 states. Hog wash man, they have been here for over 100 years, they cant expand anymore than they have and they have not got those 2 sides off the ground yet. By the time they do, as i said once before, rugby league would have had, 10 pacific nations tournaments, 5 world cups, a euro cup gathering strength, a atlantic cup building presence. Expansion by the NRL probably into PNG and also into perth and maybe aderlaide, not only that, with-in 20 years, a whole new genaration of soccer union and league fans will be swelling around Melbourne.
Sydney and Brisbane already have AFL, for over 20 years. Growth is slow. They have had soccer and union for over 100, whats your point again.
October 29th 2009 @ 12:17pm
Bay35Pablo said | October 29th 2009 @ 12:17pm | Report comment
Oikee, RL is to union in NZ what union is to RL in Australia. That’s my point.
And by ‘starting” I mean putting serious cash into development. Until now they have been dabbling their toes in the water. That’s my point.
October 29th 2009 @ 12:34pm
Working Class Rugger said | October 29th 2009 @ 12:34pm | Report comment
Bay
According to Oikee RL has conquered ( note Oikee that is how you spell ‘conquer’) NZ. Really. Well that’s not what the participation and viewing rates suggest. Do yourself a favour ignore him. He’s really not worth responding to.
October 29th 2009 @ 12:38pm
Bay35Pablo said | October 29th 2009 @ 12:38pm | Report comment
WCR, but I like frying the ants with the magnifying glass!!! it’s fun!!!
October 29th 2009 @ 12:39pm
Working Class Rugger said | October 29th 2009 @ 12:39pm | Report comment
October 29th 2009 @ 12:21pm
True Tah said | October 29th 2009 @ 12:21pm | Report comment
Well for the NRL to corner NZ, they need more than one side based in Auckland.
Oikee, it may be news to you, but NZ has a national rugby comp called the Air New Zealand Cup, with provinces from all over NZ. In the semis, you have two teams from the South Island and two teams from the North Island. It has been a big success this season both in terms of TV viewers and crowds.
For RL to corner NZ, it needs to surpass this. In NZ RL’s issues are that it is largely confined to Auckland and that it has an image of being associated with Maori and Islander gangs, like the Mongrel Mob.
October 29th 2009 @ 9:28am
Forgetmenot said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:28am | Report comment
You seem to be counting all of NSW as league territory … not true.
October 29th 2009 @ 10:15am
albatross said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:15am | Report comment
When see RU matches at grounds in western Sydney, the majority of players appear to have an ethnic origin in the Pacific and NZ.
I suppose Tatafu Polota-Nau, Pekahau Cowan, Sekope Kepu, Salesi Ma’afu, Wycliff Palu, and Digby Ioane don’t count either.
October 29th 2009 @ 10:36am
Michael C said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:36am | Report comment
careful there….I once mentioned the war and got shot down,….you’ve mentioned it 6 times!!!
October 29th 2009 @ 12:37pm
Robbo said | October 29th 2009 @ 12:37pm | Report comment
Sorry, we will gladly exclude Vaucluse, Mosman and Broken Hill from NSW.
October 29th 2009 @ 9:43am
Matt S said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:43am | Report comment
Typical response from a rah rah (Bay35Pablo). AFL has not only begun in QLD & NSW. I wouldn’t say a third of a century is only the beginning in a professional sense. The AFL is desperate, we know, they know it. Not many more places the code can grow here in Oz.
For the neutrals, what the union people don’t want to acknowledge is the fact league has had many barriers placed in front of it in terms of social ostracism, elitist exclusion. For the self deluded they can’t fathom this was an obstacle to league. We may complain about poor administrators in the league game but this has been a direct result of the aforementioned union niceties toward our game.
Union can hardly crow though about its status in Australia. For all their privilege it is still a dull anachronistic folly not even enjoyed by many in its so-called heartlands. The game needs to become closer to league rules, that’s why they are desperate to see the game fall in a heap and just disappear so they can claim the league game as their own. It’s the reason I see so many union fans say they appreciate AFL yet are unyielding in their spite for RL.
Little too late for the union people as the AFL are swallowing up union supporters and most Reds attendees in QLD can now be seen at Lions games and their cushy private schools now welcome AFL but continue to bar league blissfully unaware that once a union kid plays AFL he is likely to remain in that sport as AFL indocrinates just as effective as union and of course, the rules are as different as the moon & sun. At least if he plays league the kids can gain similar (if not superior) skills that can re-adapted to union anytime in their playing timeline.
October 29th 2009 @ 12:27pm
Bay35Pablo said | October 29th 2009 @ 12:27pm | Report comment
Matt S, thanks for pigeonholing me. I am also a Tigers supporter, and a Sydney FC supporter. I also used to watch the Swans, but can’t get excited about AFL much anymore. I am a sports fan, but a rugby fan 1st and foremost. And I came to pick union as my sport as an adult, after trying them all. And as a former public school boy who didn’t play union. So take your pigeonholing and walk it off a short wharf.
I wish rugby was so “desperate” as AFL. Yes, they are running out of places to grow, in their heartlands, but they are the top codes in each by far. 2 teams in Perth and Adelaide. Which is my point, they haven’t been serious for the last 30 years in the northern states. That has just been the thin edge of the wedge. When they sign their billion dollar TV deal, how “desperate” do you think they will feel? Karmichael Hunt desperate?
“social ostracism, elitist exclusion”? Are you reading from a script or something? Do you know what you are talking about? Union is played by as many brickies as doctors, and as many public schools as private schools. Get your head around that.
And league’s administrative problems are union’s fault? Puh-lease. Yeah, we rah-rahs get together at our Masons and Illuminati meetings and plot conspiracies against league.
Union has its issues, but we’ll either deal with them or fade. There may be some rah’rahs with chips on their shoulder about league, but judging by you it’s a 2 way street.
October 29th 2009 @ 12:49pm
Matt S said | October 29th 2009 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
Fair call but Rugby union is still very much an elitist game and their own journos continually point this out as to why they can’t challenge league in its own backyard.
I should know, I came from an elitist school, I work in an elitist organisation, surrounded by elitist people-the bread & butter of union by far and increasingly AFL in QLD. Union may be played by more ‘workies’ these days (far less rigourous on the body) but it is still predominantly a class conscious game among those in control.
I’m a convert to league, one of 100 that union fails to indocrinate with elitist, I’m special, crap. I saw all sports before me and made my choice, something that was not encouraged in private schools esp in my time.
October 30th 2009 @ 8:10am
Bay35Pablo said | October 30th 2009 @ 8:10am | Report comment
Matt S, I think the failure of rugby union can be traced back to the 1970s:
1. League moves from unlimited tackles to 8 and then 6. Thus differentiating it from union, and ensuring more back and forth, and competition.
2. Pokies come in, providing leagues clubs with an income to pay players. While rugby clubs can do the same, the game is still amateur.
3. League was always traditionally the working mans game, so it was always more popular, but union was still doing OK.
4. With more money they game becomes more professional in the 1970s. before then while league players could be paid, they usually still worked. As such, if you were a union player, the cash wouldn’t necessarily draw you to league if you liked union.
5. TV rights started to become more important in the 1970s. Keep in mind ABC used to show most,, and you didn’t have wall to wall coverage of every game. So the exposure of league wasn’t that great over union. With TV exposure comes awareness, and support. Also more cash. Union’s greatest weakness is it isn’t on FTA. How do kids grow up wanting to be rugby players if they can’t watch it, while getting NRL on 24 hours.
6. Union was played pretty widely in public schools to the 1970s. Parra was a top union team then.
7. Professionalism starts to come in, TV coverage of league widens, the blazer brogade cicle the wagons and look after their traditional strengths (Private schools, north shore and east), chips develop on shoulders, union falls further and further behind.
This is why, to my mind, union is playing 25 years of catch up. League (and AFL) started to become properly professional in the 1970s on. Union has had since 1995, and also the handicap of the blokes in charge taking more than a decade to get their heads out of the amateur era.
October 30th 2009 @ 12:14pm
skull said | October 30th 2009 @ 12:14pm | Report comment
Pokies came in the 50′s
October 29th 2009 @ 9:53am
Matt S said | October 29th 2009 @ 9:53am | Report comment
James, The Lions are without a sponsor for next year. The Demons ave got some sponsor from a central asian company owned by one of their supporters. He only chipped in because the club couldn’t find a sponsor and there is no value what so ever for his company on an AFL jersey.
It isn’t uncommen for clubs to have sponsors leave them and new ones sought. It’s a bit early to be crowing about two NRL clubs without sponsors. The NRL & clubs still have some pretty big and prestigious sponsors involved in the game and I notice Ford are moving in (they picked up sponsorship of NRL on Fox show) and they may start to upgrade their presence in the game. How many youth comps can say the biggest car firm in the world is involved with the Toyota Cup?
With the membership push, the NRL is moving forward. I still know ,many people who don’t subscribe to Foxsports because of super league but are now back following the game…so growth there??
October 29th 2009 @ 10:12am
James said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:12am | Report comment
I was reading an article on the Brisbane Lions changing their logo, and went on their site to see what all the fuss was about, and saw this story
http://www.lions.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/5085/newsid/86447/default.aspx
Just goes to show the ignorance of labling QLD as an “NRL dominated state”
NRL Number 1 yes, but AFL I think has displaced Union as second, and is closing.
VIC: AFL 1, Daylight 2, More Daylight 3, Soccer 4, League 5, Union 6 (last 2 could swap in Melboure gets super 15 team)
October 29th 2009 @ 10:23am
M1tch said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:23am | Report comment
Its not closing the gap in tv ratings land
October 29th 2009 @ 10:29am
Redb said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:29am | Report comment
No question RL is the major player in QLD. RL SOO is the event of the year by far, probably bigger than the NRL Grand Final as it always features QLD
Great event and worthy of its status, hard to see any code displace RL whilst SOO remains so integral to the hearts and minds of native QLDers.
Australian football (AFL) has done well in Queensland though and has carved out a healthy niche. I’m not sure if its bigger than rugby union but certainly up there in the popularity stakes which will only strengthen with the new Gold Coast team.
Redb
October 29th 2009 @ 10:31am
M1tch said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:31am | Report comment
Its bigger than Rah rah now..
October 29th 2009 @ 10:43am
Redb said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:43am | Report comment
Not sure about that. Reckon a Bledisloe Test in Brisbane would still draw more interest than the Bris Lions in the Grand Final. Second tier though definitely.
October 29th 2009 @ 10:49am
M1tch said | October 29th 2009 @ 10:49am | Report comment
Internationals always draw some crowd..but on a domestic level is the main key to judge.
Reds are crap yes, but have lost the casual supporter and even winning its going to be hard to get them back to rugby.
October 29th 2009 @ 11:03am
Redb said | October 29th 2009 @ 11:03am | Report comment
Super 14 generally has lost momentum I wonder if a revamped format and new teams it might spark some major interest especially if the Reds start to win. They’ve made some significant changes off field, including grabbing a former AFL administrator.
October 29th 2009 @ 11:24am
AndyRoo said | October 29th 2009 @ 11:24am | Report comment
The QRU is tight on funds though and they recently cancelled one of their development competitions and they are talking about the top tier of QLD club rugby running with 3 byes.
I would say at the profesional level Rugby is still more popular…at least until the Gold Coast team come in, which will coincide with the new confrence system which should be really good for QLD rugby because the Aus Team vs Aus Team are the biggest games by far.
That is assuming the Reds ever get their act together.
October 29th 2009 @ 11:13am
Michael C said | October 29th 2009 @ 11:13am | Report comment
QLD has been clearly the number 4 AFL state. Ahead of Tassie in significance – over the past 5 odd years especially.
That’s why it’s ironic when people talk of the AFL having 4 states. Because, one of those ‘included’ states is Tasmania, and, they are falling behind both QLD and NSW to fall into position 6 in pecking order just ahead of NT!!!!
Reality these days, states like Vic, QLD and NSW are big enough pools of people that being number 1 in that state isn’t super critical. At any rate, this is the whole reasoning that the AFL is already committed in that it must support the numbers and the growth in both QLD and NSW. They’d be foolish not to.
NRL for a long while has ignored grass roots development in the ‘outer territories’ – - a function of no Commission?? At what point can RL happily expand based on it’s own ground work…..or, at what point does it hope to leverage of disgruntled Union followers (still seems the case by and large re Storm in Melbourne).
October 29th 2009 @ 12:50pm
Redb said | October 29th 2009 @ 12:50pm | Report comment
It’s not out of the question that QLD would legitimately be able to field a State of Origin team that would challenge the big 3 and be a fair bit ahead of Tassie.
October 29th 2009 @ 7:15pm
Timmuh said | October 29th 2009 @ 7:15pm | Report comment
Tassie would be #7 in an Origin comp. Ahead only of the ACT. The most fanatical AFL support base in the nation, but an absolute shambles organisationally. The only worse run organisations are the Tasmanian government and opposition; even the NSW government has more credibility that AFL Tas.
October 29th 2009 @ 11:47am
Matt S said | October 29th 2009 @ 11:47am | Report comment
Question is how many continue to play full time after these short clinics (they state 6 weeks but that could mean once a week attending a clinic). The numbers would drop substantially but that would ruin a good AFL story wouldn’t it? Bit like the ARL’s 35,000 plus playing league now in Victorian schools and growing!
October 30th 2009 @ 9:28am
Cam said | October 30th 2009 @ 9:28am | Report comment
35,000 league players in victoria? You mungoes are the most delusional and one eyed fans in the world. I have never come across a single league player in my whole life in Melbourne. League just doesnt’ exist. Compare that to about 10K rugby players and established clubs. You need to get out of QLD/NSW becasue your little game doesn’t exist outside these areas. Have you ever been overseas? Becasue no one has heard of rugby league.
October 30th 2009 @ 9:31am
M1tch said | October 30th 2009 @ 9:31am | Report comment
like the afl saying a few years back there were 10 000 kids in western sydney playing afl..hmm no sorry
it was the number of kids that were given auskick bags at school
the storm used the same method as the afl by number of school kids playing
October 30th 2009 @ 9:40am
Pippinu said | October 30th 2009 @ 9:40am | Report comment
In fairness, there are a few decades old clubs in the Western Sydney region.
October 29th 2009 @ 12:08pm
oikee said | October 29th 2009 @ 12:08pm | Report comment
I think Daylight is in real danger down their in Melbourne. You are going to look pretty silly when the storm are the biggest club in Melbounre,
Pretty much like the Swans in Sydney, and the Broncos in Brisbane, one club, one huge city. Mate, it will happen, the new ground will take care of that.
October 29th 2009 @ 12:11pm
Redb said | October 29th 2009 @ 12:11pm | Report comment
They will need to average more than 50,000 per game to be the biggest club in Melbourne. Daylight is realistic.
October 29th 2009 @ 12:36pm
oikee said | October 29th 2009 @ 12:36pm | Report comment
What was that particapation rate, 35 thousand kids playing rugby league in Melbounre? now thats 35 thousand, plus their parents, thats over 100 thousand, now their friends and families, thats close to 150 thousand, and we have not even started next year. Kids to Kangaroos mate, its going to be huge.
October 29th 2009 @ 12:47pm
Redb said | October 29th 2009 @ 12:47pm | Report comment
October 29th 2009 @ 12:49pm
AndyRoo said | October 29th 2009 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
Have to love Oikee’s enthusiasm…just don’t let him do your tax returns.
October 29th 2009 @ 12:50pm
The Link said | October 29th 2009 @ 12:50pm | Report comment
QLD is an NRL dominanted state, hardly ignorance, its fact.
Show me a reasonable metric where AFL is “closing”? Crowds / TV / Sponsorship / Media exposure?
October 30th 2009 @ 8:58pm
Timmuh said | October 30th 2009 @ 8:58pm | Report comment
That might happen with the Victory, even with two A-League clubs, but is absolutely no chance with the Storm.