By Steve Kaless
November 2nd 2009 @ 5:40am
Related coverage
Kangaroos win a hard one to read
Australia's Darren Lockyer scores the opening try against England during their Four Nations rugby league match at the DW Stadium, Wigan, England, Saturday Oct. 31, 2009. (AP Photo/Tom Hevezi)
There was a strange mood around the DW Stadium in Wigan on Saturday night following the Kangaroos defeat of England, and it was tricky to work out just what you’d witnessed and what it all meant. Saturday’s Test was certainly the best example of ‘a game of two halves’ I’d seen in a long, long time.
Australia looked every bit the global superpower in the first half, but frazzled and knackered in the second.
In contrast, England looked light years behind the Kangaroos in the first half, but then worthy of the hype in the second.
It was a difficult game to read, did the Aussies take their foot off the gas or did England finally find their composure and spirit?
Australia coach Tim Sheens believed England’s revival came on the back of a glut of possession, just as the Australians had reaped dividends from their opportunities in the first half.
Sheens also admitted that he could have no complaints about Jonathan Thurston’s sin binning, after all it was he that directed referee Steve Ganson to use the sin bin on repeat offenders after the opening game to New Zealand.
The Kangaroos were certainly a more cohesive unit this week and had improved in their ability to bring the likes of Inglis and Jarryd Hayne into the game.
England certainly looked to grow in confidence as the game wore on, but unfortunately for the game as a contest the likes of Sam Tomkins and Kyle Eastmond didn’t find their feet until things had got away from them.
Is the Australian backline worthy of all the praise? Are they really one of the best ever?
Certainly in Greg Inglis they have a player who will be remembered as one of the greatest players to wear an Australian jersey.
It was Inglis who made the Australian side look light years ahead of the opposition in the first stanza.
He set Darren Lockyer’s first try by ghosting into a gap; he did the same for Billy Slater and then scored himself by sprinting 80 metres with the sort of effortless athleticism you get from truly gifted players.
That display was worth the journey in itself.
Finally, maybe I’m an idealistic fool, but the on field behaviour by some of the Australians left a bit to be desired.
The childish actions of Billy Slater and Jonathan Thurston who seemed to be constantly employing the spoiling tactics of knocking or kicking the ball away when England were looking to pack a scrum or take a penalty tap did themselves and the reputation of the Australians a disservice.
Players like this need to realise that they are the role models of the game, plenty of English fans turned up yesterday to see in the flesh players they had heard so much about by the adoring rugby league press.
To hear them chanting “Billy Slater, he’s a w*nker, he’s a w*nker” at the end of the game yesterday should hopefully be a bit of a wake up call.
I’ve gone into bat for players against a condemning public plenty of times this season, but this time I was with the mob.
If you are supposedly the best players in the world, is it too much to ask that maybe you just hand the ball over so that we can just get on with the game rather than acting liked a chastised bully?
I noticed the likes of Nathan Hindmarsh and Gareth Ellis had no problem will such small acts of sportsmanship, small acts that speak volumes.
Anyway, moan over.
Bring on next weekend, England v New Zealand promises to be a cracker.
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The Link said | November 2nd 2009 @ 7:57am | Report comment
Steve – perhaps an asterix next to this win for Australia, but they’ve done what they needed to do to get into the big one, which most likely was the aim. If Inglis stays in the game for another 2-3 years in this form he’ll be an immortal, what a player.
The Link said | November 2nd 2009 @ 9:41am | Report comment
Steve with the 4 nations involving PNG next year, how will the Frogs get back in? By winning the European Nations Cup?
Steve Kaless said | November 2nd 2009 @ 8:17pm | Report comment
Correct.
France will join the European Nations Cup next year, with the team that finishes last this year dropping out of that competition and into the European Bowl competition.
The finals day of this year’s competition is held this Sunday in Bridgend, Wales and will determine who gets the chop, I think it is between Serbia and Italy.
macavity said | November 2nd 2009 @ 12:28pm | Report comment
Slater and Thurston are two of the biggest w*nkers in world sport.
Along with Greg “Bowraville boy” Inglis, it makes it very easy to hate QLD come SOO time.
It also makes it really hard to cheer on the ‘roos.
Mick from Giralang said | November 2nd 2009 @ 12:35pm | Report comment
Steve: This is a disconcerting article. Throw in the antics of some of the Australian cricket team, Lleyton Hewitt, the occasional petulance of Cadel Evans, and the whingeing of the Wallabies, and it makes you wonder what the overseas perception is these days of Australian sporting stars.
Not too good, I think.
The man said | November 2nd 2009 @ 12:40pm | Report comment
Champangne rugby league in the first half from the Aussies.
Tony Smith should only show the video of the second half to his squad in the event of a rematch in the final – this would save his backline from many sleepless nights in the lead up.
Great photo in the SMH of Inglis powering up field looking like he is in 5th and the poms stuck in 2nd.
While understanding that playing as England increases the number of countries for a World Cup, can’t understand why it is not GB competing in the 4 nations.
Steve Kaless said | November 2nd 2009 @ 8:19pm | Report comment
Scotland, Ireland and Wales have all competed in the European Nations Cup this year. Scotland and Wales will play in the final this Sunday.
I think it is a necessary step to grow the game.
Mr cheese said | November 3rd 2009 @ 8:08am | Report comment
But do you really think that the game can ‘grow’ ??
I admire Australians’ optimism. Really, I do. I still watch RL every now and again, but I think that people in Aussie are a little naive about the potential for RL growth. How will RL grow in Ireland when they have RU, football and their own Irish sports in a small country ???
Earlier this year, the Super League took its Magic Weekend to Murrayfield in Scotland. How many tickets were sold to locals ? 5 or 6,000 ?????
The sport is unlikely to grow. They need to focus on the heartlands where the game is struggling e.g. Widnes, Halifax and Leigh.
M1tch said | November 3rd 2009 @ 10:33am | Report comment
I doubt RL will be as big as soccer or rugby in ireland, but theres no harm in trying. The thing for RL is to be not seen as the enemy.
The game at the moment is on a high in France and registration numbers are growing at a hige rate, Im still concerned about some issues with the USA Pro comp, but I;m sure Niu has backup plans.
I dont think the magic weekend workds when all games at played in 2 days, even hardcore RL fans will find it hard to watch 4 games in a row lol
Should be taken United Kingdom wide over the weekend with double headers, more locals would attend.
Next expansion will be heartlands in England ie Widnes for sure and growth in France with Toulouse.
whiskeymac said | November 3rd 2009 @ 10:43am | Report comment
I dont know a great deal about RL so pardon my ignorance first and foremost but am curious as to whether you know what the participation rates (or perception even) is like in central and eastern europe? have always wondered why countries ike Germany, Russia, Ukarine etc havent had a bigger impact with such physical games like League and Union.
M1tch said | November 3rd 2009 @ 1:14pm | Report comment
I dont have the numbers but the game in the Czech Rupublic and Serbia is going along okay. I talk to a guy who works for RL in Italy and he is confident the product could match Union for money/crowds etc
No doubt in my mind the game would be bigger than current it, if it wasnt banned in france and then couldnt use Rugby for 50 years.
Ian Noble said | November 4th 2009 @ 2:22am | Report comment
Steve
Can you explain to me why Lebanon is taking part in a European Competition? Also from the brief highlights I didn’t see too many arabs playing.
I must say that there seems to be an effort to overhype the international prespective of Rl which tends to fall on it’s face as it struggles to deliver the product and market penetration.
Steve Kaless said | November 4th 2009 @ 4:36am | Report comment
Ian,
I believe that due to geography and the fact that there is no one at their level in their own region they have joined Europe. Can’t see it being a big deal myself. Why are Israel in Uefa?
Not too many Arabs? Not sure if there are meant to play in head dresses but the side is full of them. You may mean domestically raised Lebanese. There are certainly a few in the side, I can’t name them off the top of my head but I do know there is a developing domestic competition played in lebanon that has a good representation amongst the univerisities.
Of course there are players from Australia, these blokes are largely first generation Australians, so their parents were born in lebanon. How are they not eligible to play for Lebanon? How many African footballers grew up in France?
I appreciate your point about the idea of international game being overhyped, but I’m not sure it is the case. These countries are a work in progress and I’m not sure anyone within the code would say any different.
In fact, speaking of Lebanon they probably have an argument of why they had to include a quota of domestically produced players when attempting to qualify for the World Cup and the same rules didn’t apply for Ireland and Scotland.
Ian Noble said | November 4th 2009 @ 4:44am | Report comment
Steve
I had to smile you picked up the one weakness in my argument, Israel in UEFA. I suppose Lebanon has no way else to go.
However you must admit that Scotland, Ireland and others are cobbled together teams with no real national competitions to make up the numbers and create an international presence.
Paley said | November 4th 2009 @ 4:48am | Report comment
Scotland and Ireland have rugby league competitions
Steve Kaless said | November 5th 2009 @ 9:27am | Report comment
No real competitions is different to no competitions. They are using their national teams to build things domestically, I’ll agree they have a long, long way to go, but can’t see the point in not trying.
What is the alternative? Just sit there and let everyone bang on about the M62 and NSW and Qld for eternity.
Also you’ll find the players playing for Scotland and Ireland are very proud to represent their family roots.
oikee said | November 2nd 2009 @ 1:23pm | Report comment
Good game, all the skill of the backline 1st half, then the poms throwing everything at us in the 2nd. What more do you need, us to lose it.
As i said in a earlier post, one day the poms will beat us regulary, why waste this oppurtunity to sink the boot in, they will all be singing when they beat us. Enjoy our guys, we have the best at the moment, lets not dwell on greatness like the wallabies did. It could be a long time between drinks.
Just have to mention that 2nd try , did you see how fast that ball was going? the commentator was still reading the names of the players who passed the ball, after Slater had touched down and had a drink break.
Tom Alexander. said | November 2nd 2009 @ 11:11pm | Report comment
The Kangaroos at the Moment look like a team of Champions not yet a Champion team. Could this be an issue that the Kiwis have worked out and look to exploit. The Kiwis have lost so many of their first choice players (Asotasi, Manu, Smith, Vatuvai and Tuiaki, SBW switched codes altogether) etc, and yet, they are now managing to match Australia with more regularity than ever before. This England vs NZ game will probably give us a true indication of the standard of probably all 4 teams.
Matt S said | November 3rd 2009 @ 9:21am | Report comment
Mr Cheese,
I think any developing sport would love to attract 5-6000 locals. Hey, not huge numbers but a start. I hear that Scotland Rugby league have up to 12,000 school kids playing in various league tournaments throughout the year and Scottish schools now enter the biggest school comp in the world, the Carnegie Schools Cup.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/rugby-league-can-work-north-of-the-border-1.883386
I’m not too sure about Scotland but they don’t follow club union or soccer (outside Celtic, Rangers, Hearts) in big numbers, so if they can get a Celtic Crusaders (Wales) type team in Super League, and if they can eventually attract 10,000 + then that’s a success. Very achievable I think.
They now have to try and get more media coverage and the world cup in 2008 did attract some good coverage in the big Scottish dailies. But they now need more consistant exposure.
Mr cheese said | November 3rd 2009 @ 9:57am | Report comment
Matt,
may I ask if you’re from the UK ? I’m not sure what you’re basing your assertions on, to be honest.
How on earth do you expect a Scottish RL team to attract attendances of 10,000 and more ???
I don’t know how many people watch Quins RL in London but it’s certainly below 10,000.
If you’re outside the UK, you may not understand the class connotations here: in Scotland, the great majority of the working class will associate with football, if they have a sport at all. The middle classes may go for Rugby U, in order to differentiate themselves from the working class.
At the end of the season, the Crusaders played in front of below 2000 supporters. Not great.
If Scots become more interested in Rugby, they will probably opt for Union.
I still like watching RL from time to time, so I have nothing against it. It’s strange, however, to hear Aussies ( Matt S may or may not be Aussie ) argue that RL will take off in Scotland.
Football is the sport in Scotland. Always has been. Always will be.
M1tch said | November 3rd 2009 @ 10:34am | Report comment
“Football is the sport in Scotland. Always has been. Always will be.”
The thing is RL people know that, the game shouldnt be seen as the enemy.
Dan said | November 3rd 2009 @ 4:07pm | Report comment
“If Scots become more interested in Rugby, they will probably opt for Union.”
What if they’re working class scots? Surely given how important class seems to be in the UK they wouldn’t go near union.
Ian Noble said | November 4th 2009 @ 2:13am | Report comment
I am a Quins RL season ticket holder in addition to being a Quins STH. Gates are approx 3000 for Quins RL, the gate for Quins v London Irish last weekend was 14 235, a new ground recoed for The Stoop. 2000 more than the previous RL game between the K’s and NZ.
In Scotland union has a very long tradition and of course was the birthplace of rugby 7s. I don’t where Matt got his figures for RL in Scotland but to be frank it doesn’t feature on anybody’s radar. Further the Carnegie cup may be the biggest schools competition for RL, urguably the Daily Mail cup at various age groups is the premier national rugby cup for schools in England.
Mr Cheese on the question of class distinction I would take issue with you, in the Borders as an example, where rugby has a big participation level and cuts across all classes. Obviously in the main urban areas Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, Aberdeen et al football predominates.
As for RL in Ireland, how many clubs? nine or so if that. Having watched a little of Ireland v Wales, the Irish team seemed to be made up of second rate SL players boosted by a couple of Aussie expats, presumably with Irish grandparents. Wales won handsomely with a number of young Welsh born players and with Brian Noble at the Crusaders based in Newport, RL stands every chance of growing in Wales.
In the 2nd half of Eng v K’s, my impression was that the K’s took their foot off the pedal almost as if somebody had said ease off.
Working Class Rugger said | November 3rd 2009 @ 11:00am | Report comment
Matt S
The great and all. But let’s put it this way. On the weekend Scotland played Lebanaon in Glasgow. It was held at what looked like a suburban ground with a small grandstand. If there was 150 people there they’d be lucky. And the quality was very very poor. I doubt Scotland will ever seen a professional RL team. As for Toulouse. They are a long way from ready. From my understanding they actually came second last in the National 1 this season. And should have been relegated. They weren’t but should have.
Matt S said | November 3rd 2009 @ 11:32am | Report comment
Actually from reports the Lebanon Scotland game was pretty ok. Some there say it was of QLD cup standard. Not bad for developing countries. The had about 600 there in an intimate ground. I think the Scottish league authorities don’t have the luxury of a big budget to spend on a plush stadium, advertising etc, so it is bit bit organic growth. The Scots are playing rep footy at all levels from U/16 to amatuer internationals for several years now and touring countries like Russia, Serbia, Czech rep. Who could have imagined this 10 years ago?
Plus why can’t league attract people who also watch soccer & union? Crusaders have just started. Winmning will attract crowds but more importantly it is the grassroots that are just as important. Their academy side won their competition, and Wales in the senior international against Ireland ran out with mostly Welsh born players. I can see a crusaders team winning more than losing starting to attract 5-8,000 which isn’t too bad considering most of the Welsh union clubs would die for.
i don’t see what the anamosity (fear?) toward league being played, at what ever level, in these countries?
Working Class Rugger said | November 3rd 2009 @ 12:03pm | Report comment
Matt S
I was up late over the weekend and actually watched the game. Try NSW Cup at best. And the ground wasn’t intimate. As for the 600. They must all have been hiding in the bar. Because there sure wasn’t that many in the grandstand. And no one standing on the sidelines. I’m not BSing here. And believe me there’s no (fear?) in these countries.
The Answer said | November 4th 2009 @ 4:41am | Report comment
Seeing you clearly watched the game on TV how can you be so sure of the exact crowd?
You must watch a lot of league to be able to pick the difference between Qld Cup and NSW Cup. I watch a heap and would struggle to do just that.
Who said anything about league inspiring fear in these countries?
Working Class Rugger said | November 5th 2009 @ 1:14am | Report comment
Answer
I watched the SkyTV broadcast on Justin.TV. The broadcast focused primarily on the grandstand side. Which had no more than 150 people. On the rare occasion a try was scored we got to see the other side. Not a soul. Just a fence next to some Soccer fileds. As for my watching of League. I watched less than a dozen NRL games this season. On Foxtel they show highlights of both the NSW Cup and QLD Cup. At 2am you pretty much watch anything, they were the best option. Why do you think I was watching the Scot vs Lebanon game. I was actually hanging out for some Top 14 or Super 10.
Matt S said | November 3rd 2009 @ 11:33am | Report comment
Added, I have heard even union fans say watching a Scottish international in union is not that great standard wise!
Matt S said | November 3rd 2009 @ 2:11pm | Report comment
Well, NSW Cup ain’t such a bad level to be at for a country only having played the game for 10 odd years.
oikee said | November 3rd 2009 @ 4:20pm | Report comment
They have 3 years to improve and hopefully make another world cup. Good for them, how many players can say they played in any codes world cup.? I think we are getting a little carried away. Union is huge, but at least the rugby league world cup will be in England. Go, enjoy, as the aussies enjoyed the 2008 world cup. Petty figthing is senseless, i dont like union, this did not stop me from going to the union world cup in oz.
As i mentioned before, you dont see many world cups, enjoy them all, on your doorstep. I know i will.
Tom Alexander. said | November 4th 2009 @ 12:46am | Report comment
I think the fact that the Welsh, Scots and Irish (along with the Americans, Saffas, Serbs, Croats and Russians) have taken the time and made the effort to start their own Competitions, is a good indication of a genuine growing interest in our Code. I know some people like to play it down and would rather keep Rugby League in it’s percieved place, but like one of the American sports commentators put it, the prejudices against Rugby League in England don’t necessary apply and in any case are not welcome in the United States. They would rather decide for themselves the merits of the sport, without having some fool whispering in their ear, fabricating some argument against taking it up. Rugby League will never be as big as Soccer and Rugby Union, and i think if we are wise, we should avoid even attempting to go down Soccers path. The rediculous amounts of Money along with the never ending issues of violence and corruption that continue to plague the World game should be a warning that not all that glitters is gold.
jus de couchon said | November 4th 2009 @ 2:23am | Report comment
How was a team of Ozzies pretending to be Lebanese playing a team of Yorkshiremen pretending to be Scottish supposed to expand R.L?
Corey said | December 3rd 2009 @ 1:55am | Report comment
Winning attracts fans, If Lebanon wins with Aussies (of Lebanese heritage) in the side than this will attract more people to the game. Look at the Lebanon competition (on youtube), they have a lot of talent, especially in the physical department, but just need someone to coach them a bit better, keep their physical style but just mix it up with some freakish athleticism or rugby league talent. And the Scots don’t even really support a sport- I work with a fair few who get excited when Scotland win anything, but admit Scotland are not into sport as much as their southern brothers. We always think that when we introduce a game to a country they will take hold of it straight away. Look at soccer in Australia- we have a dismal National competition, our Socceroos team is by far a couple of leagues better than players who miss out on the final squad and yet Soccer is the most participated sport in Australia, why? (One reason, as was the case with many of my rugby league team-mates, is their parents didn’t want them to get hurt, so they waited until they “toughened up” at around 15 to let them play) Yet Aussies love physical games (look at our 3 largest winter codes), yet fear for their kids. Soccer has some hardened supporters but will never grow properly in Australia because of its style, same as other countries (e.g. Brazil will not take league because it is too physical, albeit they are big guys, they do not like the physical stuff).
Billo said | November 4th 2009 @ 2:26am | Report comment
Rugby league has a developing international program, and it has a World Cup set down for England in 2013.
If its administrators can get it together, with four years to prepare (and I know it’s a very big ‘if’), then international rugby league could be in a much better position in five years’ time than it is now.
There are five Pacific nations – PNG, Tonga, Samoa, Fiji and the Cook Islands – that could all reach a reasonable level of competitiveness that they might struggle to reach consistently in rugby.
I watched the Welsh play Ireland on Sunday, and I can easily see Wales developing a competitive team in the years ahead.
Mr Cheese, incidentally, likes to point out how nobody in England likes to watch rugby league, but he may be interested to know that the Super League Grand Final was the top ranking program on Sky Sports for the week ending 11 October.
Ian Noble said | November 4th 2009 @ 2:49am | Report comment
Billo
If RL can’t grow RL in Wales then they have a major problem, rugby is the national sport and there are enough rugby players in Wales for some to switch to RL and as you rightly said the young Welsh side showed alot of promise. All this nonsense of the union v league debate is illustrated in London and Wales where the RL clubs are using rugby stadia without any problem and with considerable help for the union side. As an example, the CEO of Quins sits on the board of Quins RL and ticketing/marketing initatives are shared.
In the last RWC2007, Tonga, Fiji and Samoa performed very creditably, with Fiji losing anrrowly to SA in the quarters. On the 7s circuit Samoa and Fiji are real challengers and with their full time squads will only get better and compete for medals in 2016 Olympics. So I don’t really see the point as otherthan probably PNG which is probably the closest to OZ, wasn’t it a colony of OZ at one time? that union is far away the biggest and offers more opportunity for their players to earn a decent living as seen by the numbers of them playing in the UK and France.
Finally draw your attention to other postings on TV viewing figures and the issue of demographics and the reason why Sky are so anxious to get more union coverage. In spite of that it will be interesting to compare the Eng v K RL game and the Eng v Ws games not only with viewing figures but also gates; interesting to see 23000 at Wigan and not full.
Paley said | November 4th 2009 @ 3:03am | Report comment
What about demographics? Advertisers pay Sky based on the ratings – for that reason it usually costs more to advertise during a Super League game on Sky than a Guinness Premiership game on Sky. Besides, I doubt there is a huge difference between the audience demographics.
Billo said | November 4th 2009 @ 3:16am | Report comment
The demographics are interesting for both codes of rugby in England.
The league grand final was watched by 450,000 people, of whom only 59,000 were men aged between 16 and 34, while 119,000 were from the ABC1 social classes.
The highest ranking rugby match that week was Leicester v Ospreys, which drew 323,000 viewers, of which only 31,000 were men aged 16 to 34 and 139,000 were from classes ABC1.
That suggests that both codes have an aging audience, and that league isn’t too far behind rugby in terms of ABC1s.
Both codes have a lot of work to do, and, writing as a rugby supporter with league as my second game, I don’t think that the supporters of either code can afford to be complacent.
Paley said | November 4th 2009 @ 3:27am | Report comment
Are those peak audiences? The averages were rather less – 365,000 for the Grand Final – 291,000 for the highest rating HC game. The Grand Final was the highest rating programme on Sky Sports that week despite being up against the highest rating programmes on all 3 other Sky Sports channels at the same time
Ian Noble said | November 4th 2009 @ 3:50am | Report comment
Billo
Couldn’t agree more but I read the ABC situation slightly differently, Sky need to sell more dishes and capture more ABs, why because they tend to be the major income producers in the UK and if they can be attracted to Sky then Sky will attract more quality advertising etc. It is a difficult one to crack as myself and my mates have a natural aversion to Murdoch. Ok they have the cricket rights but we can see a highlights programme on FTA but rugby is where they can really make inroads. The new agreement with the RFU and Premier Rugby increases coverage quite considerably and as you may not be aware they are making noises to capture the 6Ns, where currently viewing figures are currently 5/7 Million. Will I buy a Sky subscription, I still prefer the pub but you never know.
Billo said | November 4th 2009 @ 3:57am | Report comment
Ian, I take your point, but if Sky is increasing its commitment to rugby, why was it willing to allow Setanta to beat it to the punch for the majority of GP games? That’s not really consistent with them wanting to increase their coverage, and it isn’t the message I pick up from Sky.
Also, rugby figures on the terrestrial channels also show poor take-up by 16 to 34 year old men.
On the other hand, the coverage of league on Sky badly needs revamping.
Mr cheese said | November 4th 2009 @ 9:55am | Report comment
That isn’t totally fair: I simply pointed out that RL in the UK has far more problems than certain Aussies can understand. In NSW and Qland, as I understand it, RL is very much part of the culture. I don’t think they realise that making it part of Scottish or London culture will be extremely tough.
Ian Noble said | November 4th 2009 @ 3:35am | Report comment
Paley
I don’t know the relative costings for advertising but the viewing figures for the recent GP and HC games of 135000/178000 conpare very favourably with normal SL games. If you look at the one off games such as the HC final and GP final they also compare favourably with the SL grand final.
The question of demographics is very interesting in that Sky has built it’s subscription base on the back of football and as Oikee has suggested there is more synergy between RL and football than union. Therefore it is probable that the greater volume of dishes are in the football heartlands, of which the greatest is the M62 corrider not only the birth of RL but the birthplace of the Football League. If you follow my drift as Sky are always keen to increase their coverage. One way is to use union where it is strong the West Country, East and West Midlands, Wales and large tracts of S England. There is also another point, the viewing figures do not include pubs and clubs. Personally I prefer to watch games in the pub together with 50 others, there is a better atmosphere etc.
This is why Sky is increasing it’s coverage of union not only with the GP and the HC but with the new Championship (the old ND1), the Ango Welsh cup, IRB 7s, U20 Internationals and of course sole rights to England’s games. One further interesting comparison will be the viewing figures for Wales v AB’s on FTA (BBC) and the England v Ws game on Sky. Is there an answer/ Yes the 4 nations tournament is vitally important to RL as it must innovate to keep it’s viewing figures up, if not it’s negotiating position will deteriorate and TV revenues will fall.
Paley said | November 4th 2009 @ 4:37am | Report comment
Why do you think there is more synergy between rugby league and soccer? Who told you that? Do you really think there are more dishes on the M62 corridor than elsewhere?
Sky had decreased its GP programming with Setanta grabbing the majority of games (although at a fraction of the cost Sky paid) – the GP viewing figures for the regular season are not great and haven’t improved much in recent years. It will be interesting to see how the Anglo/Welsh thing rates on Sky, it didn’t exactly set the world alight on the BBC and teh clubs mostly treat it with contempt. The IRB 7s series hardly rates at all so I can’t imagine Sky paid much for it.
As I said, Sky charge advertisers based on ratings not on the perceived social class of the viewers – of course companies will target their advertising based on the perceived viewership but there is a huge amount of crossover within the viewership of all sports. Far more ABC1s will watch soccer than union on Sky.
Ian Noble said | November 4th 2009 @ 5:05am | Report comment
Paley
I lived in Lancashire for many years and am aware of the synergy between RL and football in that area of the UK, also the rabib RL poster Oikee suggested the same. As a matter of interest Eng v K’s was held Wigan Athletic’s stadium.
Setanta UK no longer exists and the contract previously agreed with PLR no longer exists, there is a new package in the offering.
The GP figures are close to a standard SL game,W/E 25/4/09 SL 122,000; GP 116,000. The majority of SL games are shown on Friday evening and in the summer, no competition with football, the majority of GP and HC games are shown on Saturdays and Sundays in direct competition with football on both Sky and ESPN. I think the Anglo/Welsh cup is a mickey mouse competition and it probable that the majority of the GP teams will use it as a development competition. In many ways similar to the EPL clubs using the League Cup as developemnt, Arsenal being the classic case.
At the moment because of Sky’s football coverage the ABs have bought the dish for that purpose but there still is a large market for Sky to capture The new union coverage only really started this year and will take time to bed down. Sky want to spread their net and if I recall they have 7 M dishes in the UK and they want to increase that to 10M, Rugby will help and as others on the Roar are continually bleating about rugby being the game of the toffs perhaps you can understand my drift. There still is that preception, although as a professional sport it is changing rapidly and some would say to it’s determent. The more ABs they sell to, the better quality higher value products they will advertise, ie moving from Ford to Jags and Range Rovers ?
Paley said | November 4th 2009 @ 5:14am | Report comment
I live in Yorkshire and am not aware of any great synergy between soccer and rugby league, there is some crossover but not a huge amount.
Odd date to pick for a comparison – the other SL game that weekend was on Sky Sports 1 but didn’t make the top 10 so it was less that 207,000 but probably comfortably more than the SL and GP games you mentioned – the SL game was the highest rating on Sky Sports 2 that week.
The GP game that week was shown on a Saturday afternoon – there is no live soccer shown on Sky on Saturday afternoons, the only live sport it was up against was Tennis which rated at 35,000 – the SL game was up against Live Speedway and Live soccer. Rather different from your claim eh?
Colin N said | November 4th 2009 @ 5:26am | Report comment
“the other SL game that weekend was on Sky Sports 1 but didn’t make the top 10 so it was less that 207,000 but probably comfortably more than the SL and GP games you mentioned”
So what was the GP audience for that weekend then?
Paley said | November 4th 2009 @ 5:28am | Report comment
It’s in Ians post – 116,000
Colin N said | November 4th 2009 @ 5:48am | Report comment
ah ok.
Ian Noble said | November 4th 2009 @ 4:15am | Report comment
Billo
Setanta UK is no longer and ESPN have picked up the baton. They have renegotiated the Premier league (football) contract and they have captured the Top 14 rugby in France. At the moment the GP situation is in limbo but the CEO of Premier League Rugby wants to sell a further package of games, will it be Sky or ESPN? It may have to be ESPN because of European competition rules. However, the price demanded may be too high for ESPN who are hard bargainers as illustrated by their renegotiation of both the Premier League rights but also the SPL rights in Scotland; interesting times and alot to play for.
As for the age groups watching Sky, I would suggest that young guys who watch are either not subscribers because they either watch in the pub or are not counted when watching at their parents homes. Don’t forget the viewing figures are related to households watching not actual numbers because multiwatching in pubs and clubs, plus of course in households is not reflected in those figures. As a comparison, I reckon that the viewing figures for the Wales v AB’s game on FTA will probably be in the region of 2/3M, if it involved England it would be considerably greater.
Billo said | November 4th 2009 @ 4:33am | Report comment
Ian, we need you in Australia for your positive outlook on rugby.
I’ve never seen anyone so good at turning every negative into a positive.
The figures show that young guys don’t watch the game, but you know better.
Some people may call you a dreamer, but your unwillingness to see anything bad about rugby is truly refreshing.
You could certainly teach all the depressed rugby supporters on this website a lesson.
Can you hook up a meeting with the Aussie coaching staff this week to give them a motivational talk?
Or, better still, get in touch with JON!
Ian Noble said | November 4th 2009 @ 5:20am | Report comment
Billo
It is not rocket science as the viewing numbers relate to actual households and with the high price of houses in the UK the number of young people able to afford their own place is small, hence the low number of people below 34 recognised as viewers. If you also go to my local pub on a big match evening that is where some are, with their mates drinking a few ales and enjoying the repartee. These viewers are not included in the figures.
I suppose in England we are not too dispressed about the state of game as we have a vibrant club competition, which may not be the best but there are some great contests. The national side will continue to be soap opera and whatever happens on Saturday will be another talking point ,as judging from Johnson’s squad there will be a number of young faces with potential but are they good enough for the test arena.
Paley said | November 4th 2009 @ 5:25am | Report comment
The viewing figures are based on the number of people in a household watching – if there are people in household of a certain age watching they get counted as being of that age. It doesn’t matter if they own the house or not – childrens programming wouldn’t register any children watching it if your claim was correct.
oikee said | November 4th 2009 @ 9:43am | Report comment
Someone mentioned that only old farts were at the Kiwis Kangaroos game in London. ? London is full of aussie and kiwi youngsters working and holidaying. That crowd was full of future NRL and league followers, possibly super league followers as well. Talking about T/V veiwers, from the posts i read from the UK, after that game all i witnessed was alot of talk of who are screening the NRL next year after the collaspe of Sentanta.
Rugby league has produced a package that now can be sold around the world and hopefully over the next 5-10 years, to the highest bidder, not a add on to a sports presenter. I can watch all the soccer and union here in oz as i wish, but, i have to pay for them. Why would i pay when we get rugby league free to air, and every game repeated 3 times on fox sports.
Yes , i pay for that, but those overseas games are extra to pay.
All i know is that rugby league is in demand on alot of sports channel’s around the world, Spike the cable network is going to show a full season of NRL next year, i would also say they might include the Origin series, they are in the bussiness of expanding their cable network. If this happens by showing rugby league, then league’s value will increase. Yes only 250 thousand might have watched the few games, but how many more will take up the service if they know it includes a full series next year.
I dont know how UK operates with ESPN, but i can rest assured if its showing the NRL, it will make good progress.
Their is a few poms over here next year, we might see more as the years progress. The NRL is on the verge of a massive T/V deal with-in 2 years, and add on top the Pay and cable services from overseas, i think it would be safe to say, pay packets are going to increase nicely, so we can compete with foreign cash-up comps.
Why should oz suffer so France can just do as it likes with the top 14. We are in the market and we are selling a very good product, one that saw massive increase in Bussiness last year, thanks to the quality on offer. Well you tasted that quality in the Kiwi Kanga match.
And that is close to the level you get weekly with the NRL, not every game, but towards the finals it really punches the juice. That is why we can sell 75 thousand between 2 local clubs in Sydney. I dont know what your hearing over in the UK, but i can tell you the feeling here in OZ, our international game has just improved 50% we now have 3 teams all very close.This is the work being done by the super league and NRL.
Just one last point about the pacific cup comp. Alot of those players were from the under20 toyota cup comp, these are future NRL stars, many play for cookie islands, so they did extremely well. PNG will also gain untold experience and exposure next year.
The possitive for league is the fact that nearly 40% of players will be from the island nations with-in 10 years, thats why the island nations are going to keep gathering strength.
Hopefully the next rlif meeting will fix up the international player rules for ellagibility, something that i here union guys talk about so often. To me its not a issue, if i lived in France and was ellagible to play for them, i would. Why not, the aussies wont pick you, as far as they are concerned, your a frog now.
The Answer said | November 4th 2009 @ 4:45am | Report comment
Sky certainly need an overhaul on their league coverage, a return of NRl would be nice, but it has been good to see Championship and Championship One on TV this year. Who would have thought the London Skolars would ever be on the box.
Ian Noble said | November 4th 2009 @ 5:49am | Report comment
Paley
Living in Yorkshire probably explains it, if you live in Wakefield, Castleford then synergy would be less but I would argue in Leeds, Bradford, Hull and Sheffield there would be a considerable crossover particularly since RL switched to summer. I see the final of the 4 nations is to be at Elland Road.
The standard household I suspect is assumed to have Mum, Dad and 2.3 children (UK national average under 16), hence the problem with counting over 16/34 years old. We can go round the houses on viewing figures and pick holes in the arguments but the point is that the competition to increase viewing figures is driven by the brand awareness and the problem with RL is that it has no international presence and the SL is becoming repetitive. Although this year at last the Wolves won the Challenge Cup outside the Leeds, St Helens, Bradford cartel, pity the Grand Final was normal service resumeed.
Paley said | November 4th 2009 @ 5:58am | Report comment
I live in Bradford – there isn’t much crossover here at all. Before that I lived in Leeds, again not much crossover. However, I fail to see what your assumed crossover theory has to do with anything.
The TV ratings don’t assume a standard household – they measure the people in the household watching each programme. If there are 6 people or 2 people in that household those people are measured as individuals so will fall into their own particular age brackets for the ratings.
I have seen some cracking international rugby league recently, not bad for a sport with no international presence.
Do you think the GP is becoming repetitive? There hasn’t been many winners over the years.
Colin N said | November 4th 2009 @ 6:35am | Report comment
That suprises me about Leeds. I know quite a few people who are both Leeds Rhinos and Leeds United fans.
“Do you think the GP is becoming repetitive? There hasn’t been many winners over the years.”
No, because you genuinely feel anybody, bar a couple of sides, can win it. There wasn’t much to chose between the top five last year, and this year Northampton look very good and Wasps (despite their loss at the weekend) look like they could challenge as well. Combined with a resurgent but dull Saracens side, London Irish, Leicester (obviously), it could well be an exciting end of year. Bath and Harlequins are also very good sides on paper who are yet to fire, perhaps because of off-field difficulties.
Do you find the Super League repetitive because of the recent St Helens-Leeds domination in the last few years.
Paley said | November 4th 2009 @ 6:41am | Report comment
Not particulary. There has generally been some periods of domination by 1 or 2 sides in the 100+ years of league rugby in England. In the brief period that club union has been played competitively very few clubs have won the league.
There will always be some crossover amongst sports fans but Ian’s suggestion that RL and soccer have a synergy is not exactly true. In many ways in the big RL towns there has been rivalry between the soccer and RL teams for 100 years. In Bradford and Hull that is particularly true.
oikee said | November 4th 2009 @ 10:00am | Report comment
I will expain the crossover thoey for you Paley, its respect for both sports and what they do, rugby league followers do have some respect for football, not to the extent that i would follow the game, but i apprietate what they do.
Our footy show here in oz, rugby league show, often has soccer players come on and we wish them well. We had that liverpool guy, Mark Johnson? on the show once along time ago, he had 5 rugby league balls lined up on the touchline and kicked everyone over the goal posts without missing one all in a row, without stopping,. So we did understand the skill they have to have.
Both are working mans games, this beds well with supporters, the underdog thoery. And football is a goliath, lets not kid ourselves, and the soccer dudes love rugby league also, most of the socceroos love watching rugby league. Probably vice versa when the soccerdoos play.
So, you dont get that between the rugby codes, one is out to squash the other, always have been. Maybe one day the crossover will be easier to except, in the meantime, game on baby, we are building the world’s greatest rugby comp.
Ian Noble said | November 6th 2009 @ 6:27am | Report comment
Oikee
I have a theory to support the closer synergy between soccer and RL. When the guys got together in Hudderfield they wanted to be paid and go professional,. They had seen the early success of the Football League that was established in Lancashire but obviously spread across into Yorkshire. Judging from some old films discovered in Blackburn, gates at some of the early football matches were pretty big. In the back of their mind they had to create a product which they felt would attract the punter to partially compete against football and were looking for something different from rugby as played by amateurs and out of this thought process RL was created.
The RFU based in London probably had no idea of the growth of professional sport, bearing in mind communication in those days was pretty dire, no telephones, cars etc and they probably lived in a completely different world of corinthian sport, ie amateur sport. The strongest football team in London was probably the famous amateur club Corinthian Casuals and the whole ethos of professional sport was something which was not understood nor desired. It wasn’t a question of class. The number of people paying to watch sport in Southern England was low, there was none of the big gates for Arsenal and Chelseas’ of this world. The big gates were in the North with kick offs timed to allow the working man to go the game after working Saturday morning. Hence the 3.00pm kick off, which was always the same until recently with the advent of blanket TV coverage. So it was no surprise that there was a breakdown in communication not only would they not appreciate the impact of professional football in Lancashire and Yorkshire, but a lack of understanding that players who entertained wanted to be paid.
Funnily enough when rugby went professional in 1995 one member of the RFU council was heard to say that “rugby would not become a major spectator sport”. Ok there were large gates for internationals but for a leading clubs such as Quins you would be lucky to get a crowd of 2/2500. Entry was probably £2.50/5 and there no stands and pretty rudimentary facilities. It really is quite staggering to see what has happened over the last few years.
So early professional football was the benchmark and the driver for professional rugby in Lancashire and Yorkshire, here endth the lesson.
Colin N said | November 4th 2009 @ 7:03am | Report comment
“In the brief period that club union has been played competitively very few clubs have won the league.”
If we compare it since the Super League came into existance in 1996, 5 different sides have won the Guinness Premiership. Only 4 different sides have won the Super League.
Paley said | November 4th 2009 @ 7:11am | Report comment
Not much diffference then. However the history of English competitive club rugby in rugby league goes back over 100 years with many winners. English competitve club union played in leagues goes back to 1987 – there have been only 6 winners (a domination by 4 with 2 winning only once)
Colin N said | November 4th 2009 @ 7:23am | Report comment
So you can’t really compare them then, unless you compare the winners of the Rugby League top division dating back to 1987. What’s the statistics then?
therealalekid said | November 4th 2009 @ 7:46am | Report comment
According to this there has been five winners of the League in RL since 1987. Leeds, St Helens, Wigan, Bradford and Widnes. Widnes last victory came in 1987 -89 and if IIRC that was when they started to to spend heavily on players like Jonathan Davies. Also Within those 22 years Wigan have won the league 7 times in a row and now Leeds have 3 in a row, which showns periods of domination by one team.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_League_Championship
Don’t believe that reflects badly on League, but it hardly shows more variety than RU.
M1tch said | November 4th 2009 @ 10:11am | Report comment
bit like EPL, dominated by the big 4
But Bulls are struggling big time and clubs like Hudders, Catalans and Hull KR are developing nicely.
We’ve seen Hull, Catalans make CC finals, and Warrington win it.
Hull made SL gf a few years back as well.
Leeds and Saints are like ManU and Chelsea, no matter what players they loose, they just seem to be up there.
oikee said | November 4th 2009 @ 10:03am | Report comment
Just get onto Wigan next year. Their coach is one of the NRL’s best.