By Bay35Pablo -
November 13th 2009 @ 1:52am
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ARU need to allocate more resources to schoolboy rugby
Recent articles and comments have highlighted the apparent dependence of rugby on the players coming out of private schools (especially GPS), and how those same private schools are increasingly drifting away from rugby as their one and only sport.
This caused me to pull out my Waratahs program for 2009 (which my wife hasn’t made me throw away yet. See honey, there was a reason for keeping it!), and check the origins of the various players this year.
Given NSW does tend to produce the lions’ share of players in Australia, they are likely to give a pretty good guide on this issue.
They were, in the main squad of 30:
Phil Waugh – Shore
Ben Batger – Kings
Al Baxter – Shore
Kurtley Beale – St Josephs
Luke Burgess – St Josephs
Will Caldwell – Kings
Matt Carraro – St Josephs
Tom Carter – Knox
David Dennis – Richmond High School
Matt Dunning – Northolm Grammar
Scott Fava – Kiama?
Adam Freier – Waverley College
Daniel Halangahu – Kings
Rob Horne – Georges River College
Sekope Kepu – Wesley College (NZ)
Ben Mowen – Villanova College (QLD)
Dean Mumm – Kings
Ratu Nasiganiyavi – St Josephs College Nudgee (QLD)
Sam Norton-Knight – All Saints College, Gold Coast (QLD)
Dan Palmer – Warilla High School
Wycliff Palu – Balgowlah Boys High
Tatafu Polota-Nau – Granville South High
Beau Robinson – St Stanislaus College, Bathurst
Benn Robinson – Kings
Brett Sheehan – St Josephs
Timana Tahu – Cardiff High School
Chris Thomson – Marist College Canberra
Jeremy Tilse – St Josephs
Lote Tuqiri – Sunnybank State High (QLD)
Lachie Turner – Newington
Academy – Professional (8)
Ben Coridas – Westfield Sports High
Kane Douglas – Maclean High
Damien Fitzpatrick – St Josephs
Ed Jenkins – Riverview
Sitiveni Mafi – Westfield Sports High
Ben McCalman – Kinross-Wollaroi School
Pat McCutcheon – St Josephs
Jeremy Su’a – Westfield Sports High
Academy – Non-Professional (16)
Kotoni Ale – St Augustine’s College, Brookvale
Damon Anderson – Cranbrook
Phoenix Anderson – Marist College, Canberra
Harry Bennett – Kings
Tim Bennetts – Pennant Hills High
Eddie Bredenhann – Anglican Church Grammar (QLD)
Josh Daley – The Southport School (QLD)
Greg Jeloudev – Kings
Mark Johnson – Kings
Michael MacDougall – Kings
Salesi Manu – St Augustine’s College, Brookvale
Cameron Mitchell – Kings
Sam Robertson – St Stanislaus College, Bathurst
Sam Latunipulli, Lachie McCaffrey & David Tautaiolefue – not disclosed
Leaving aside the pure league converts (Lote and Timana), we are dealing with an extended squad of 52. Ostensibly the best pick of NSW (leaving aside those playing for other states and in Europe).
Of those:
Kings – 10 (19.23%)
St Josephs (Hunter Hill) – 7 (13.46%)
St Stannies – 2 (3.84%)
Shore, Know, Waverley College, Cranbrook, Newington, Riverview – 1 each (1.92%)
It appears the team is essentially a combined Kings/St Josephs team, with a third of the entire team! Of course, those two GPS schools are known as rugby nurseries.
Further, this becomes a self-perpetuating system, as those schools attract the best players.
However, the dependence on the GPS (and private schools generally) is worth noting. If those schools all started playing soccer or AFL tomorrow, where would rugby be (OK, joke – the committed rugby players would go to other schools).
It is worth noting the newer players coming out of St Augustine’s College and Westfield Sports (2 and 3 respectively).
What it shows to me is that if rugby in the traditional heartland of GPS and private schools is truly on the wane, then rugby may have a serious problem.
As we all know, many players carry on with the sport they play at school. If they aren’t playing rugby at school, will they play (or follow) it at all?
Further, it also begs the question, are there really so few, or so unskilled, players coming out of non-GPS schools? Or is it about being seen, or getting the opportunities from going to a “rugby” school, or do those players get snapped up by those schools from non-GPS schools?
Or so few non-GPS schools playing rugby?
Ultimately, the rugby powers that be need to be committing as much of their resources as possible to schools, and “brain washing” the kids (and parents of tomorrow) into playing rugby.
Give me the child until 10 and I’ll give you the man for life?
Give them to AFL, league or football, and never see them at all …
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(24)
The way it is! said | November 13th 2009 @ 7:42am | Report comment
As my playing days are closing I have recently put my hand up to coach at Colts level. We couldn’t even field 3 teams consistently and the standard of player coming out of the schools was below average. This I believe is a direct reflection on the playing numbers at the non private schools in the district. When I played colts 5 grades among all of the clubs was the norm and the playing ability much higher as it was a combination of non & private schools. This problem will get worst if it’s not address urgently.
Old Pig said | November 13th 2009 @ 8:00am | Report comment
Interesting analyses and somewhat concerning. Not sure what the answer is but I know from first hand experience with my sons school (a member of the CAS) that soccer will be offered as an alternative to rugby from yr 3 onwards, starting in 2010 and this is going to seriously weaken the pool of talent that the school has to draw on. It has been suggested that this change has been driven by a group of parents concerned that rugby is too rough and dangerous and for some reason they think soccer is safer. I think it also has something to do with the fact that soccer & AFL are heavily promoted to this age group and once hooked it is difficult to change. These kids are already playing soccer/AFL when they arrive at school.
I firmly believe schools rugby needs to get serious with it competitions and start playing genuine 2 round fixtures with semis & finals, combine the GPS, CAS and whoever else wants to join in into a divisional competition, mix it up and watch the spectacle unfold. The kids will love it, parents get bragging rights and the schools an opportunity to compete in a broader market.
Yes, I know this has a private school bias but lets face it this has been the heart land of rugby for too many years and to not use it as established platform would be stupid to say the least. I’m sure the ARU could throw a few resources at this and make the right moves to get all interested parties to agree to a format without upsetting too many people. Who knows maybe some kids will go home and tell their mums that they are switching codes and playing rugby next yr because it is more popular and better resourced.
mickeym said | November 13th 2009 @ 10:22am | Report comment
The problem with statistics is that there are always more…
It seems that of all students in Australia, 32% go to private schools, with most private schools in NSW playing rugby.
On the other hand, of the 68% of other students, you might assume that less than half of those schools actually play rugby. Which means that say 34% of students go to rugby playing public schools. So, of all rugby playing schools, it’s about a 50:50 split of public:private.
Which means that the public school system is over represented at Waratahs level, with a 60:40 split of players coming from public:private schools. And that is despite private schools offering scholarships to promising rugby kids…
Skip said | November 13th 2009 @ 10:39am | Report comment
The stats are skewed as a lot of the players from GPS schools on scholarships and were recruited from Govt schools.
I agree that there needs to be a greater focus on schools but I think we need a greater focus on the Colts structure.
It is my expreience that player believe that if they have not made representative honours at school then there is no chance to be a proffesional footballer so they give up.
Harry Wombat said | November 13th 2009 @ 3:30pm | Report comment
Skip, if clubs are not converting their players to colts once they finish juniors then they need to take a long hard look at themselves. And that may be the problem. How many schools have a colts program ? Often they might have an Old Boys team but that does not always appeal to a youngster wanting to play Colts
Harry Wombat said | November 13th 2009 @ 3:20pm | Report comment
Waiting until the child goes to high school (private or public) is too late. If you want to catch the child then aim for them to start in the U6’s. For NSW it is only touch at this stage, played with a parent on the field who should ensure everyone has a turn with the ball, no scrums. In fact everything to make it safe for the protective parent to appreciate. If you want to plough money into the high schools do so by all means but by then you are really only preaching to the converted and maybe one or two extras.
AndyS said | November 13th 2009 @ 3:35pm | Report comment
Agreed. For mine the future should be clubs, not schools. They may have been the bastion in the past, but it doesn’t mean they are the key to the future. I look at my nephew in NZ, and he is well engaged by his rugby but it has nothing to do with his primary school.
waterboy said | November 13th 2009 @ 3:42pm | Report comment
You private school fathers beware.
While your schools have done everything over the last 100 years to keep the perceived enemy (rugby league) out, you have allowed the devil (AFL) to slip in the back door.
The AFL will decimate rugby school programs in private schools over the next 10-20 years now that they have a foothold.
Pippinu said | November 13th 2009 @ 3:45pm | Report comment
Not another reds under the beds post!!
So let me understand this – Melbourne’s elite schools have kept rugby going for 100 years in a city where the game is barely known – but aussie rules willl decimate rugby in the elite schools of Sydney and Brisbane??
Have I understood that correctly?
Harry Wombat said | November 13th 2009 @ 3:45pm | Report comment
So where does soccer fit into the equation
Pippinu said | November 13th 2009 @ 3:48pm | Report comment
Australians aren’t allowed to use their own vernacular anymore – we are forced to use the French, Spanish or German word.
Harry Wombat said | November 13th 2009 @ 3:59pm | Report comment
If you mean soccer its origins are English, as are mine.
Pippinu said | November 13th 2009 @ 4:11pm | Report comment
Yes, well, surprisingly (or maybe not so surprisingly) much of the Australian vernacular is actually of English origin.
Cattledog said | November 13th 2009 @ 4:03pm | Report comment
I have long been an advocate for supporting the transitional phase from schoolboy to club with more resources. Several posts on this site and elsewhere atest to that. Rugby in schools, especially the non-traditional schools is growing. Both primary and many secondary state schools are introducing rugby next to league, not as an alternate, but as a sport for the following term, which is a step in the right direction.
There are significant resources in the GPS and many CAS schools for rugby. As a member of a GPS 1st XV, this will be the closest you will come to a structure not unlike the set up within a Super franchise or even the National team, believe it or not. This, of course, can be a double edged weapon. On the one hand, these boys receive in the main exceptional coaching, support and resourcing as a part of this exclusive club. The problem, of course, is when they leave this environment and move to club land, where the support, resourcing and coaching, except at premier level, is well below expectations. Unfortunately, due to maturity and resourcing, many are lost as they struggle to come to grips with going from ‘king of the kids’ to the bottom of the club heap. Of course, those lucky enough to gain a Super contract or Academy position straight from school remain in the mix, but there are the others, who have shown potential at either State of even Australian level during their schoolboy days, to warrant support during this transition. The moving of resources from a number of overpaid, underperforming ’stars’ would perhaps assist in securing the future of 20 other possible stars of the future.
I’m also an advocate of an extended rugby season, particularly within the GPS / CAS schools although this would be difficult to achieve with a summer and winter sport, together with the representative requirements of GPS-CAS / State / and National competitions. Having said that, it’s not impossible, although a home and away series would severely limit preparation and further reduce the ability to play a summer and winter sport, be it rugby / rowing; or rugby / cricket. Difficult yes, impossible, no. However, with the dynamics of these sports changing dramatically over the last 10 years or so, rarely do you see a 1st VIII rower play for the1st XV and excel in both sports, or even cricket. Years ago, the 1st XV tight five were generally the engine room of the 1st VIII. Not any more. As I say, difficult, but not impossible.
In summary, the ARU should provide resources to assist with keeping talented players moving from schoolboy rugby to the club scene. In addition, a home and away competition within the GPS / CAS should be investigated to give the players the opportunity to improve their skills further before moving on to the club scene, with talented players who have shown themselves worthy of support by playing at State or National level, resourced to a small extent whilst transitioning to club level. IMO, this would have a significant benefit in keeping talented lads from drifting elsewhere or just losing interest. You would only need to keep a relatively small percentage of these boys to have a significant impact, not only on the club scene, but to also bolster new Super franchises coming on line in the next few years!
Klestical said | November 13th 2009 @ 4:22pm | Report comment
They should televise Schoolboy rugby. Best games of the round etc
AndyS said | November 13th 2009 @ 4:29pm | Report comment
I’d settle for a level playing field with respect to rep teams etc….
Firestarter Bob said | November 13th 2009 @ 4:32pm | Report comment
The schools could easily counter the “rugby is too rough” argument and the encroachment of soccer & AFL by offering Rugby 7s to their students. No parent could say that Rugby 7s was more dangerous than soccer or AFL.
Clubman said | November 13th 2009 @ 8:24pm | Report comment
Why does everyone rate a player on where they spent their last two years of school. McDougall & Mitchell went to Marist Eastwood and were picked up by Kings after appearing for Junior Club rugby and Sydney Under 15’s.. They were only picked up by Kings after performing at Club level and not through the school system. As for McCaffery he too was picked at junior Club level via Hillview and Eastwood well before being noticed at Riverview. You can throw all the money you want at Schoolboys Rugby but the real talent pool is Club Rugby which clearly identifies talent well before the school system does. Oh and Mark Johnson went to Knox not Kings. Find which junior clubs the players came through and see where the real money should be going. Twice the result at a tenth of the cost.
westy said | November 13th 2009 @ 9:39pm | Report comment
I know from following my local club that the Two Blues are currently negotiating to move to Castle hill Showground and concentrate on the Hills and the northwest. The part I cannot confirm is that David Campese is to coach Parramatta first grade next year. Can anyone confirm ? or is someone having a lend of me?
westy said | November 13th 2009 @ 9:58pm | Report comment
Yes it is true David Campese is the backline coach for the Two blues next year. Mark hartill is the forwards coach. I suspect the ARU or NSWRU is to be thanked because i do not think Parra had the dough. Playing out of Castle hill Parramatta seek to become the club of Sydney’s northwest.
Midfielder said | November 13th 2009 @ 10:40pm | Report comment
Bay35Pablo
Let me describe my understanding of rugby in private schools… hopefully at the end you will understand when I am finish that private will remain a strong foundation stone of rugby … but you need to expand well beyond the private schools…
In a business sense the rugby position in private schools was / is similar to the AFL in the southern states… That is operating in the mature phase of a market as the dominate player… As the dominate player you cannot increase your position only loose ( market share not your dominate position) it over time as new competitors (in this case AFL & Football) enter the market.
Business that succeed respond to changing conditions and invest in their future by establishing themselves in new markets to make up for the lost of their market share in their homeland markets… The AFL ( sorry AFL people but you are a classic market model) I think saw years ago when RL moved into Perth & SA that things had changed. Then Perth Glory started to get crowds and government backing…Seeing things in time would only speed up the AFL poured heaps into the development of Sydney & Brisbane and now plan to spend what ever it takes to get a second Sydney team and a Gold Coast team off the ground.
The AFL expansion is in part a reaction to Unions move into Perth and in time they knew Melbourne was only a matter of time. Add a reborn Football under new management finding itself in a very business & political friendly Asian place.. Now the AFL speak of their 20 team format. Be under no illusion it is pure business and very clever and very well carried out..
Rugby Union on the other hand in private schools has been under increasing pressure from Football and AFL for resources … As an aside to explain how far this has come .. A very close friend, son goes to Kings … he says even 8 years ago the best and fastest boys played in the outside backs in the union teams.. Today at Kings the ten fastest boys between 15 & 17 play football at the school.
However that does not mean you ignore your heartland, this must still be respected and they must be acknowledged and if possible brought into the same expansion team and happily .. well not happily but at least understand the reasons for some affection moving to new areas.
What has union done … well as my uncle Leo says ( he is a brickie and swears something terrible does uncle Leo) but uncle Leo say Union has done SFA (Sweet F All). So while loosing out in the mature phase of your position at schools you have done SFA to invest in juniors in areas like Western Sydney read Westy posts… and areas like the Central Coast …. These areas have a lot of the nation’s future sportsman living…
Bay35Pablo me thinks you would be wiser to invest in your resources, developing your juniors in a more meaningful way… read what Sheet, TT, Westy , Onside among others who can see with their own eyes what is happening… just for starters in Western Sydney as I speak the AFL with Blacktown council are building a 40 million dollar training academy… RL has spent heaps on their own training academy … NSW Football are investing 45 million dollars of their own money in a training academy at Riverstone ( 10 KLs from Blacktown)… both Football & AFL plan to put teams in their domestic competitions in Western Sydney…
Bay35Pablo … rugby needs to move on from the private schools … the business cycle is catching up… pressure is building …
Pippinu said | November 14th 2009 @ 5:16pm | Report comment
Mid
that’s a reasonable “business” perspective, which I think works quite well, and I don’t really have any problem with what you have said.
Along similar lines, I have said on the Roar more than a few times that even if the AFL is roughly where it is now after 50 years, having invested $200 mill in new markets – it was probably $200 mill well spent (this aligns closely with what you are saying about losing a little in prime markets, making it up in new markets, etc).
The other business aspect you touch on is the AFL talk of 20 teams. Are they serious? Will it happen? Wouldn’t have a clue.
But there is business method in such madness, and it’s this:
Think of any other market: dog food, chocolates, cars, smokes, beer – whatever – doesn’t matter it happens everywhere. What happens? Established players create new products, over and over and over, some work, some don’t – but that’s not the real reason why they do it – a crowded market means new players have trouble getting a toehold.
So out of the many diferent brands in any market – most are owned by 2 or 3 large firms – products come and go – they own most of them – so they get the benefit ultimately – if you want to come in with your new one brand – you’ll get your 1% of the market – but that’s not going to kill of the big 2 or 3.
When the AFL talks of 20 teams, it has precisely this sort of strategy in mind. If there are any loose dollars out there to be captured, make sure they’re going to one of their brands rather than someone else. If the loose dollars end up being shared 2, 3 or 4 ways – that’s ok – that’s better than getting zero percent of the loose dollars.
aix said | November 17th 2009 @ 11:49pm | Report comment
Whatever – almost half the school students in NSW and ACT go to independent schools (the highest in the world) so articles such as this are totally misleading and out of date. More schools in NSW and the ACT have an opportunity to play rugby than ever before (especially in country NSW) than when it was confined to just the GPS and CAS schools in Sydney. At the same time football and AFL are making an impact – its called choice.
But just as Patrician Brothers Fairfield was once known only as a rugby league school in the same way as Joeys was a rugby school they have both had to adapt to accepting other codes to satisfy fee-paying parents. Having returned from a weekend in Melbourne and learn that schools such as Carey Grammar have a rugby program in every year shows that Melbourne is changing – and this will accelerate when Melbourne has its own Super 15 team.
Rugby should be less bashful about pointing out its benefits. Once an AFL player is delisted at 25 or 26 he has nowhere to go – unless to Werribee in the VFA. A rugby player can play professionally to his mid-30s in the UK, Ireland, France, Italy, Japan and probably in the next five years to Argentina, Georgia, Romania, Spain. Portugal, Germany, US and Canada.
Schools, both independent and state, should use the recent decision to include rugby 7s in the Olympics as the template for driving the takeup of rugby for boys and girls in schools. Rugby supporters are used to hearing from AFL, NRL and football fans that their sport is the best – rugby 7s can show that rugby is at least their equal.
simon said | February 9th 2010 @ 12:05pm | Report comment
Skip – not quite. It is my understanding that Joeys for example, don’t recruit in this way thru scholarships.
Rugby is strong in the private schools through a rich tradition and fierce rivalry. There is no need to change this,but only build on it.
The key is not to replace the private school base with clubs, but to complement it. Get into the govt schools via clubs. And where private schools can’t/won’t increase their seasons due to summer sports etc, allow certain boys to extend their personal seasons by playing for a club outside of the school rugby season. This will only benefit the school’s first XV.
It should be noted that the private schools only have a handful of trials and a handful of competition games per season.
I have written more on this: http://www.theroar.com.au/2009/10/27/reforming-schoolboy-rugby/