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The Crowd Says (67) | Page 1 of Comments

• 

  Freud of Football said | November 17th 2009 @ 5:55am | Report comment

  “How Germany recovers from the tragic suicide of goalkeeper Robert Enke remains to be seen, but with the squad understandably devastated by the passing of their popular teammate, they may find the burden of honouring his memory a heavy one to overcome.” – Oh please, I should have known.

  Tuckerman, when was the last time you were in Germany? No-one here gave a damn about Enke. Bild beat the story to death and published half of their 500 photos in black and white to “capture” the mood but it’s not like anyone – in footballing circles that is – will remember his name in 12 months time and just because a few names turned out to his funeral, so what?

  Germany have some fine keepers, Hildebrand is every bit as good as Enke was and then Adler is pretty good too, Neuer should get the number one jersey as he has bags of talent as does Rensing who will get it together once he leaves Munich and with that pair you have the next Kahn-Lehmann type battle.

  The nation is hardly “mourning a favourite son” now. It wasn’t Kahn or Klinsmann or Matthäus and if it was 500,000+ people would have turned up to the funeral and everyone who is anyone in German football would have attended but it was the third choice behind Kahn and Lehmann, Hildebrand so stop trying to play the emotion card on everyone just because you have nothing better to write about Germany than the “tragic suicide” of their “popular teammate”.

  How about the next generation of players? Why don’t you write something constructive about them and tell Australian’s about some of the amazing talent in the Bundesliga? Or the 3 amigos at Bayern and how they continue to shoot themselves in the foot? Or what a fine job Dietmar Hopp has done with Hoffenheim and how he has invested in the long term? Or what about German hooliganism which is still alive and well? How about Turkish footballers and who they identify themselves with in their choice of representing a nation? Ballack and how he is past his best? Or the enigma that is Thorsten Frings? Podolski and the lure of Bayern that ruined his career?

  There are a million interesting things you could write about the Bundesliga but you pick something topical and meaningless to your article, are you out of touch or just not that interested?

  Reply

  • andrewMc said | November 17th 2009 @ 8:58am | Report comment

    Hey Freud, to use your own question,when was the last time you were in Germany…? I am in Germany right now. And quite frankly, I can’t take anybody who read the Bild seriously.

    Tuckerman is talking about how the death will affect the team, not the nation. Enke’s death will impact on the team’s performance in South Africa. The question is whether they use it as a force for motivation. Only time will tell.

    Reply
    • 

      Freud of Football said | November 17th 2009 @ 5:49pm | Report comment

      AndrewMc, I’m in Germany now and have been for a number of years now and while you mightn’t take Bild seriously (and admittedly I don’t read it) it is one of Europe’s biggest papers, more-or-less dedicated to football and if you ever travel on public transport in the morning you’d have to be blind to miss every painter and sparky that has a copy in their hand.

      Reply
  • 

    Mike Tuckerman said | November 17th 2009 @ 8:58am | Report comment

    Pull the other one, Freud.

    Either the 45,000 mourners that turned out for his memorial service, or team manager Oliver Bierhoff weeping in a live press conference, or the DFB cancelling their friendly with Chile, or DFB President Theo Zwanziger poignantly stating that “football is not everything” must have given me and millions of others the impression that Robert Enke was a popular and well-respected member of the German squad.

    He was not the “third choice” behind Oliver Kahn (who retired almost two years ago!) or Jens Lehmann or Timo Hildebrand (currently behind no less than Tim Wiese, Manuel Neuer and Rene Adler in the pecking order) as you so incorrectly state. He almost certainly would have gone to South Africa as Germany’s first choice goalkeeper.

    I write for SBS website The World Game on the topic of the Bundesliga from time to time. http://www.theworldgame.com.au/blogs/mike-tuckerman

    I suggest you check back there if you’re so desperate for the pressing news from Germany. Otherwise, feel free to keep your comments relative to the topic at hand.

    Reply
    • 

      Freud of Football said | November 17th 2009 @ 6:13pm | Report comment

      Tuckerman, you quite simply have no idea about German football and although you seem to know more about the Bundesliga than anyone else over at SBS who so care for “The World Game”, your being on a few terraces in Dortmund hardly makes you an expert on the topic, especially an expert who gets paid for writing the tripe that you do over on TWG.

      Your recent piece on how the A-League can take a leaf out of the book of the Bundesliga shows just how out of touch you are, the two leagues and cultures couldn’t be more like apples and oranges.

      Germany has history, legends whose names are known the world over, 3 WC’s and countless appearances in finals, a super-fast rail network inside a country far smaller than numerous Australian states with 4 times the population, where football is THE sport, it attracts all the sponsorship dollars, it’s in the middle of a football hotspot, fans of certain teams are 4th and 5th generation – what does Australia have?

      An artificial league spread over an enormous continent with crappy, expensive transport infrastructure where football is competing with two other codes which they will never conquer, in a sparsely populated nation with no media coverage, limited sponsorship opportunities, no sporting infrastructure, no legends and we can barely make it to a WC.

      Apples and Oranges.

      The simple fact is, no-one cared about Enke. He WAS third choice behind Kahn and Lehmann (that’s why he managed a mere 8 caps by the age of 32. Yes lot’s of people and a few names turned up to his funeral, so what? Compare it with how Kahn’s death would be taken – it’s nothing.

      2.5 billion people watched Princess Di’s funeral on TV, including me but it doesn’t mean I cared about her.

      Hildebrand is not “behind” Wiese, Wiese has 1 cap, he’s 27 and won’t be the number one, nor will Hildebrand who was given some bad advice when he should have stayed with Stuttgart which might have furthered his international prospects but at the end of the day, anyone with half an idea about German football can see that the Number 1 is going to be battled for between Neuer and Rensing, Enke, if he would have been picked, was merely a temporary solution.

      Reply

      • Ben of Phnom Penh said | November 17th 2009 @ 6:46pm | Report comment

        The whole Enke thing seems to have gotten to you FFoF. How about some thoughts on the African chances in the World Cup or how far North Korea is likely to get?

        Reply
        • 

          Freud of Football said | November 17th 2009 @ 7:00pm | Report comment

          North Korea I cannot comment on as I don’t know a great deal about their team, that one I’ll leave to Tuckerman. African chances, again, I don’t know a great deal and haven’t been to the continent for a while but I would suggest, it will take a miracle for an African nation to win the WC.

          Sir Stanley Rous, former FIFA President had great foresight and one of the few predictions he made that didn’t come to fruition was that African country would win the WC by 2000.

          I simply cannot see the infrastructure in Africa that will enable any country to compete with the financial superpowers of Europe or even the relatively poorer latin american countries who still manage to do so well. It will require another few decades before they can compete on an even footing and by then the sporting landscape will be entirely different anyway.

          SAF is probably best equipped off the field but cannot develop the players it requires while there have been a few african teams over the years that were genuinely talented, they can’t get it together off the field.

          Corruption and greed are always going to hold Africa back, not to mention the political turmoil or the general chaos in most countries.

          Reply

          • Shahsan said | November 17th 2009 @ 7:14pm | Report comment

            You could be describing Brazil with your last few comments, and they havent done too badly at the World Cup.
            The truth is, Africa could have won the World Cup already in 1990 (Cameroon) or 1994 (Nigeria) if not for some bad luck, poor reffing decisions and general naivity.
            All it really requires is a solid core or spine of solid professionals playing in the top leagues, and some time and good training beforehand and anything could happen. Ivory Coast and Ghana do have some of those ingredients.
            Whatever is happening in their countries really doesn’t come into it that much. Now look who’s generalising.

      • danny said | November 17th 2009 @ 6:47pm | Report comment

        seconded, ben. freud, you obviously don’t agree with mike and many others’ assessment of enke. but a bit of sensitivity for a tragic death? and just because you disagree, it doesn’t mean that mike has no idea about the bundesliga. this site’s all about opinions, isn’t it?

        Reply
        • 

          Freud of Football said | November 17th 2009 @ 7:38pm | Report comment

          Tragic? He threw himself in front of a train? How about the train driver???

          Reply

          • danny said | November 17th 2009 @ 7:41pm | Report comment

            i feel for everyone involved, freud.

            are you going to deny that the needless death of a young man, a husband, a father, is a tragedy? he died as a result of a debilitating chronic condition that is readily treatable. tragic, by my definition.

      • dasilva said | November 17th 2009 @ 6:55pm | Report comment

        FFS

        “No one cared about Enke”

        Look the public will get over the death of Enke as he is not a German football legend. However Tuckerman wrote exclusively about the team not the public.

        Just because Enke wasn’t an exceptional player doesn’t mean he wasn’t well like or was popular with the team mate.

        Zeljko Kalac was hardly a great keeper as well but it has been reported that he is a popular and well liked member of the AC milan squad and was known to be the joker of the team. So not being a great player is not a major influence on how well liked you are.

        Unless you know the behind the scenes detail of the german national team, there’s no reason to assume that the German National team will not be affected by the death of a member of their squad. How do you know that Enke wasn’t a popular member of the team?

        Enke was a club captain for his club. You have to be a well respected and well liked person to be given the captaincy. We have members of the national team in tears due to his death such as their team manager Oliver Bierhoff.

        So isn’t it quite reasonable to question whether the German National team may have problems reconciling with his death and that it might have some impact to their performance.

        It’s like saying when Foe died at the Confederation Cup that the Cameroon side shouldn’t be affected by it in the confed cup finals because he wasn’t that great of a player.

        Reply
        • 

          Freud of Football said | November 17th 2009 @ 7:09pm | Report comment

          Enke was a club captain. Well doesn’t that make it a whole lot worse? I mean really. Cameron White is Victorian captain but his death would be a tragedy right up there with Warne wouldn’t it?

          Dasilva, I live in Germany and even the German’s thought it was a huge beatup, normal people have said who selfish he was and how the coverage was disproportional to the event. His funeral attendance seems so large because of the Australian perspective, 45000 people is nothing in Germany. I see that many at rallies all the time.

          Enke was the third choice, he may have been “popular” amongst his teammates but when was the last time you heard a negative obituary? “Robert Enke was a real twat, I don’t particularly care that he died” isn’t something that is going to endear one to the public is it now?

          Enke was the only player from Hannover in the national team setup and that was a “weak” link at best, he was not the favoured choice and no-one is claiming he was so it’s just a lot of crocodile tears and fake emotions from a lot of people who would like to look sympathetic but don’t really give a rats.

          Reply

          • dasilva said | November 17th 2009 @ 7:23pm | Report comment

            Look I don’t mind you downplaying the impact of Enke death to the nation or that his death was overhyped. Hell, I love the Chaser Eulogy song as much as anyone.

            However Tuckerman line “How Germany recovers from the tragic suicide of goalkeeper Robert Enke remains to be seen, but with the squad understandably devastated by the passing of their popular teammate, they may find the burden of honouring his memory a heavy one to overcome.”

            You took that line and started a rant about it.

            However Tuckerman’s main point is not how much the death will impact the nation but more about how it impact the squad. It seems you took your frustration about the media portrayal of Enke, build it up and then released it on the first guy who mention his name.

            unless you are really saying that a member of your team dying will not going to affect the squad performance anyway then I don’t really believe your statement has any merit on Mike’s point. There’s a good chance that there will be players in that team who are friends with Enke (unless Enke was a complete loner and had no friends in the national set up) who want to win the world cup and honour his death. So I don’t know what the problem is.

            Hell if someone like Archie Thompson dies before the world cup who probably not good enough to make the squad, I’m quite sure key players in the squad like Cahill, Culina, Neill who are close friends with Archie will have their performance affected by it and want to honour his death by their performance at the world cup as well
      • 

        Mike Tuckerman said | November 17th 2009 @ 7:48pm | Report comment

        Freud – I’ll have to take your word for it that a “number 1 battle” will involve a Michael Rensing that has never once been called up to the national squad and who lost his place in the Bayern starting line-up to the 35-year-old Hans-Jörg Butt after just three Bundesliga games this season.

        But regardless of what I personally feel about Robert Enke, the fact is I simply passed on the sentiments expressed in the likes of Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Kicker Magazin, Deutsche Welle and a host of other reputable news outlets who expressed shock at the tragic passing of the man that many of these outlets considered the goalkeeper most likely to start in South Africa.

        Reply
        • 

          Freud of Football said | November 17th 2009 @ 8:09pm | Report comment

          You passed on the thoughts of Kicker – Well thank you to our saviour. Everyone in Aus really needs to know what Kicker has to say don’t they – hardly world class journalism. FAZ is obviously well respected and had some proper news rather than the “oh how we will miss him” rubbish of Kicker, Bild and Sport Bild.

          Rensing (who has played for Germany at U17, U19, U21 level) is sure to leave Bayern (as you’d know if you kept yourself up-to-date), the question is whether it will be in January or the summer, my guess is the latter as Bayern won’t want to do business for another keeper in Winter.

          You would also know the expectations heaped on Rensing (if you were up-to-date) and know that replacing Kahn was an impossible task, that Kahn said he was good enough probably wasn’t what he needed as he was always going to struggle, the seal of approval from Kahn and the press coverage given to him were always going to make it harder, that the 3 Amigo’s can’t keep their mouth’s shut also doesn’t help, that Bayern can’t settle on a manager has just been a further point not to mention the rubbish defence they’ve been putting out over the last years (Lucio is a fine individual but defending starts from the front).

          Rensing didn’t have the experience to takeover from Kahn, anyone could see that he has the talent but Bayern wouldn’t loan him out, preferring him to play in the 2′s which simply aren’t up to the standard that he needed to develop.

          Come back in 3-4 years once Rensing has settled somewhere and we will see whose right. I wouldn’t make a statement about him if I wasn’t informed but I get the feeling you’ll milk your meagre knowledge of the Bundesliga until you’ve squeezed every cent you can out of SBS and they finally notice that there are far more knowledgable people who possess far greater insight than yourself (or me).

          Reply

          • Jan said | November 18th 2009 @ 6:45am | Report comment

            Freud of Football stop distorting realities with your stupid rants.

            “Dasilva, I live in Germany and even the German’s thought it was a huge beatup, normal people have said who selfish he was and how the coverage was disproportional to the event. His funeral attendance seems so large because of the Australian perspective, 45000 people is nothing in Germany. I see that many at rallies all the time.”

            I live in Germany and what you call “normal” is a minority. When you have an event that creates a huge response by the public and the media, you will always have people who will criticize the proportions. That is true and was also the case here. When you are dealing with suicide, you will always have people who will call it “selfish” because their limited worldview denies them compassion and a deeper insight into the illness that is depression.

            The reality is though, that both sets of people were a clear minority in Enke’s case. You will need to bash and discredit every single German newspaper, TV station and the majority of people in Germany etc. in your desperate attempts to downplay the effect Enke’s death had.

            Also stop your stupid belittling of Australia. “45000 people is nothing in Germany” – Well, it was only the second largest public memorial since the death of West Germany’s first chancelor Konrad Adenauer, so no it’s not nothing it’s a lot in “superbig”, lol, Germany too.

            Also, belittling Enke’s status is wrong on many levels as well and your claims about superior Bundesliga knowledge – your comments suggest you have no clue about the two topics.
          • 

            Freud of Football said | November 18th 2009 @ 4:39pm | Report comment

            Ah yes, Jan, I guess watching a few Bundesliga games a week, speaking about the league with friends and colleagues every day, living in Germany etc. would all leave me to be someone who has no idea about the Bundesliga while I didn’t claim to be an expert, Tuckerman does, that’s the difference and an expert he most certainly is not.

            However I challenge you to prove me wrong on any of my points about Rensing, Wiese, Hildebrand, Neuer or Enke. Or even the Kahn and Lehmann saga. All of my points could be backed up with articles, you merely made an assumption.

            What I consider to be “normal” is most certainly not in the minority. I would say the painters, plumbers etc., those generally referred to as “Hauptschüler” who come from a different social class (the gap in social classes in Germany is something most Australians couldn’t comprehend) to the one I live in might be sympathetic of his plight, but Germany is a far more educated country than that.

            I can’t say I socialise with a lot of people from the aforementioned class, most of the people I know are middle or upper-middle class, relatively well educated and there are still a number of passionate football fans amongst them and if you want to try and say the middle and upper-middle class is the minority in Germany, well you have rocks in your head.

            “Well, it was only the second largest public memorial since the death of West Germany’s first chancelor Konrad Adenauer, so no it’s not nothing it’s a lot in “superbig”, lol, Germany too.” – How many thousand turned out to see C. Ronaldo presented in Madrid for example?

            I also made the point earlier, 2.5 billion watched Princess Di’s funeral on TV, including yours truly, I didn’t care about it, she was nobody to me and her death was a lot more unfortunate of Enke – the numbers don’t tell the true story.

            Lastly, why on earth would I belittle Australia? I am Australian. I merely noted that 45,000 is not that much when you compare that with Australia. In Aus, there are numerous stretches of road, 500+ kilometers long where the towns along the way would have a combined population of 45,000.

            Go get yourself a map, now draw a 200 km radius around Hannover and see how many big cities you encompass, you’ll notice immediately that in that radius there are millions, tens of millions of people. 45000 is a very small percentage of the population, conveniently located near Hannover that might have given a damn.

            Last but not least, if the club captain of any other club died tomorrow, just as many people would show up to a funeral service, I hope it doesn’t happen but suggesting otherwise is nonsense.

          • Jan said | November 19th 2009 @ 12:00am | Report comment

            “Ah yes, Jan, I guess watching a few Bundesliga games a week, speaking about the league with friends and colleagues every day, living in Germany etc. would all leave me to be someone who has no idea about the Bundesliga while I didn’t claim to be an expert, Tuckerman does, that’s the difference and an expert he most certainly is not.”

            Given that Tuckerman’s credentials equal having no idea about the Bundesliga in your book, I could of course use the same argument here.

            “However I challenge you to prove me wrong on any of my points”

            “Germany have some fine keepers, Hildebrand is every bit as good as Enke was and then Adler is pretty good too, Neuer should get the number one jersey as he has bags of talent as does Rensing who will get it together once he leaves Munich and with that pair you have the next Kahn-Lehmann type battle.”

            Hildebrand is a talented modern keeper indeed. His reflexes and agility are excellent and in that respect he is on the same level as Enke. Enke though was better at anticipating the game and at controlling his penalty box. Hildebrand isn’t much of a penalty killer, while Enke had outstanding stats in that respect. All in all, Andreas Köpke and Jogi Löw were certainly right picking Enke ahead of e.g. Hildebrand. Adler and Neuer are certainly the future. Rensing is a talented goalkeeper, and he should be able to do well at another Bundesliga club and become a good goalkeeper. I don’t see him challenging either Adler or Neuer or Wiese or even Hildebrand. Rensing is a classically trained goalkeeper who is strong on the line but not much more. This deficit sees him competing with the likes of Wiese, while Neuer and Adler are out of reach. And Rensing will need to seriously up his game to reach Wiese’s level to begin with. Neuer vs Rensing certainly won’t be the next Kahn-Lehmann battle. The “battle” between those keepers was a rather late invention anyway. Until Klinsmann, Kahn was simply declared #1 and Lehmann was never given a fair chance.

            “… but it was the third choice behind Kahn and Lehmann, Hildebrand so stop trying to play the emotion card on everyone just because you have nothing better to write about Germany than the “tragic suicide” of their “popular teammate”.”
            “The simple fact is, no-one cared about Enke. He WAS third choice behind Kahn and Lehmann (that’s why he managed a mere 8 caps by the age of 32.”

            In 2006 Enke was the fourth choice keeper. Klinsmann had included him in his extended squad for the World Cup. This was two years after he had joined Hannover, reestablished himself as one of Germany’s best goalkeepers and got his career back on track, after his Barcelona odyssey – where he was first diagnosed with depression. After the World Cup, Oliver Kahn retired and Enke was promoted to 2nd goalkeeper behind Lehmann – taking turns with Hildebrand. By the time the Euros came around he was officially Germany’s #2. Though, Lehmann’s selection as #1 was more down to status and merit, rather than form. Lehmann had been sitting on the bench at Arsenal for most of the season and looked erratic in Germany’s friendlies. It was one of a few squad selection decisions by Löw, which were criticized, as Germany’s defense turned out to be very shaky, with Lehmann playing his destabilizing part. Following the Euros, Löw decided against declaring a new #1 and instead let the likes of Enke, Neuer, Adler and Wiese compete against each other. Enke looked to come out on top, as Löw declared him the #1 choice for the crucial World Cup qualifiers (http://www.shortnews.de/start.cfm?id=784239). Unfortunately for Enke a stomach virus put him out of action and Adler seized the opportunity. But Enke was still very much in the running to be Germany’s #1.

            Oliver Kahn was 29 when he took over as Germany’s #1 and Lehmann was quite a bit older than Enke, when he replaced Kahn. Both hadn’t earned a lot of caps until then either.
            Also, people didn’t just care about Enke because he was an excellent keeper, but because he was a wonderful person. Humble, thoughtful, easy going and all in all the exact opposite of your stereotypical “mad goalkeeper” and egomaniac football star. People cared about Enke, because of what he went through in his life.

            “anyone with half an idea about German football can see that the Number 1 is going to be battled for between Neuer and Rensing, Enke, if he would have been picked, was merely a temporary solution.”

            No, there is a group who favored choosing the new #1 between Neuer and Adler. Rensing doesn’t play a part here anymore. The idea was to make a clear generational cut and go with the youngsters and skip the generation of Enke, Hildebrand and Wiese. But then again there was also a group favoring Enke to take over, allowing Neuer and Adler to perfect their skills and become World Class on club level first. Both keepers had recently seen some dips in form with the occasional blunder, suggesting they could use some time to become more consistent. Something Enke had been for years.

            The question how the German national team will cope with Enke’s death is perfectly valid. Michael Ballack knew Enke since the age of 13 and other players were his friends. It’s nothing they’ll just brush aside. But the outcome doesn’t need to be negative, as it could also help bring the players closer together and motivate them to win the cup for Robert.

            “What I consider to be “normal” is most certainly not in the minority. I would say the painters, plumbers etc., those generally referred to as “Hauptschüler” who come from a different social class (the gap in social classes in Germany is something most Australians couldn’t comprehend) to the one I live in might be sympathetic of his plight, but Germany is a far more educated country than that.

            I can’t say I socialise with a lot of people from the aforementioned class, most of the people I know are middle or upper-middle class, relatively well educated and there are still a number of passionate football fans amongst them and if you want to try and say the middle and upper-middle class is the minority in Germany, well you have rocks in your head.”

            Painters and plumbers are generally referred to as painters and plumbers. And this really has nothing to do with class or educational backgrounds. Whether its FAZ or Spiegel catering to your “normal” people or the gutter press BILD and Express, they all had similar agendas. None of them depicted Enke’s death as a selfish act with Germany’s “stupid and poor” making way too big a deal about it. They instead talked about Enke’s life, his character, his achievements, his struggles. They talked about depression, they talked to people who suffer/ed from it or who treat it. They tried to raise awareness and pledged to rid depression of its stigma. They pointed out how depression influences your thoughts, feelings and behavior and how people suffering from it, are no longer able to make rational (i.e. selfish) choices.

            “Go get yourself a map, now draw a 200 km radius around Hannover and see how many big cities you encompass, you’ll notice immediately that in that radius there are millions, tens of millions of people. 45000 is a very small percentage of the population, conveniently located near Hannover that might have given a damn.”

            Point taken. There are 1 million people living in the Hannover metropolitan area and the federal state has 7.7 million. Germany is a compact, densely populated country. And yet these things don’t happen every week, month, year or even decade for some reason.

            But it’s really not just in the numbers, it’s the overall impact and legacy. Hoffenheim’s central defender Joe Simunic has come out and talked about how he suffered from depression earlier in his career, other athletes have done the same. Stan Collymore, a former PL player talked about his struggle with depression and his suicidal thoughts. The German FA wants to do something to help. Germany’s chancellor Angela Merkel has come out and talked about the topic and how it applies to people working in politics as well etc. There’s the distinct wish that Enke’s death wasn’t for nothing so to say, but that our society learned something from it and changes for the better. Whether that’ll actually happen is a whole different question of course.
          • 

            Freud of Football said | November 19th 2009 @ 2:03am | Report comment

            Jan, good to see you put in the effort to respond.

            Firstly regarding the keepers. You are correct in saying there was talk of a “clear generational cut”, I’m not sure how realistic this was as Germany prides itself too much on it’s results and have always had strong keepers, the National team has never been a place for young keepers and as such I would suggest it was Hildebrand who was earmarked to take over from Kahn/Lehmann who should have both departed at the same time.

            Hildebrand however screwed that up in leaving Stuttgart, he was a massive flop in Spain and came back with his tail between his legs to Hoffenheim and while Hoffenheim mightn’t be cannon-fodder, it’s not exactly the place where the German National Team’s Goalkeeper is likely to play his club football. Same goes for Enke, Hannover were never going to be challenging for honours and as such it’s hard to see how he was ever going to be first choice material at a mid-table club.

            As for the race being between Adler/Neuer and not Rensing. Adler and Neuer both have their backers, but Rensing most certainly does too. Lehmann spoke out in his favour http://www.bild.de/BILD/sport/fussball/nationalmannschaft/2009/06/27/jens-lehmann/michael-rensing-soll-zur-weltmeisterschaft.html (as much as I hate to use Bild as an example, that was the first result and it’s interesting to note the article makes no mention of Hildebrand) but this was before the season fell apart and of course being Kahn’s protégé he has always had a preference for Rensing.

            Further, you seem to have a bit of a short memory because at the start of last season there was plenty of praise for Rensing, he mightn’t have had a good season this year but don’t forget; “form is temporary, class is permanent”. The blame can be attributed to so many other factors that I’m sure Rensing will bounce back at another club where circumstances suit.

            Moving on to the social aspects. I’m not sure where you live but I don’t think the term “Hauptschüler” when referring to someone of a lower class is geographically constrained, I’ve heard it used more-or-less across the country when referring to people who work “lesser” jobs, hang around at Bahnhof’s and drink beer at the Imbiss on the corner during lunch breaks.

            The middle class in Germany are quite snobby and look down on the painters and plumbers of the world, partly because of their inferior education and partly because this class is predominantly Turks and Eastern Europeans, I certainly wouldn’t go as far as calling them racists but that gap, between the classes is clearly defined.

            And yes the different papers did have totally different takes on Enke’s suicide. While FAZ will always remain classy, Bild played it up with as many tear-jerkers as they could think of to sell as many papers as they could, that’s why today, 8 days after his death Enke is still on the front page of their site: http://www.bild.de/BILD/sport/fussball/nationalmannschaft/2009/11/18/deutsche-nationalelf-schreibt/abschiedsbrief-fuer-toten-robert-enke.html

            It’s the same as Michael Jackson’s death, a week later there was a musical about the man, the Amazon charts, the day after were all MJ songs, even today one of the main stories on The Sun in England is about Jackson – that’s how tabloids work, they write rubbish to make a lot of money and that rubbish is generally read by those in the lower classes, german society is no different to any other in that respect.

            Not once did I downplay depression. I simply do not believe that Enke’s death;

            A) Was worthy of the press it received
            B) Had any place in this article

            If the German team can’t “deal” with it then I’m sorry but they shouldn’t be playing for Germany. They’ve always possessed mentally strong sides and any team that falls apart or can’t perform to 100% because of a death with minimal influence – when compared to how big of a loss Ballack for example would be – on the side doesn’t deserve to represent Germany.
      • 

        Mike Tuckerman said | November 18th 2009 @ 8:27pm | Report comment

        Freud of Football – I hesitate to dignify your personal vendetta with a response, but I’ll take the opportunity to point out that I have also lived in Germany, speak the language, am a former season-ticket holder at a Bundesliga club and have friends in the football media in that country.

        You’re entitled to share whatever opinion you see fit, but I thought this information might prove useful the next time you claim I have “no idea about German football.”

        Reply

        • Ben of Phnom Penh said | November 18th 2009 @ 8:49pm | Report comment

          It should probably be pointed out that the main role that Mike plays is one of stimulating debate, which he has done. Personally I find that he has more than adequate background knowledge on world football, particularly Bundesliga and J-League, to fill that role.

          The only person who really knows who will fill the role of goalkeeper in South Africa is Joachim Löw, and unless I’m mistaken I haven’t seen him post here as yet. Everything else is informed opinion and if these didn’t vary then blogs would be rather tiresome places indeed.

          EDIT: oh, and on the actual topic on hand which is far more interesting…. what are the odds of a Maradonna led Argentina doing a France 2002?

          Reply
        • 

          Freud of Football said | November 18th 2009 @ 9:26pm | Report comment

          Tuckerman, I have no vendetta against you and at least you had the guts to answer some criticism unlike the increasingly limp Fink who goes all quiet and loves changing topics when his readers don’t agree with him.

          You have written some good stuff on Asian football but you obviously still do not grasp German football. You speak the language? So what? So do 100 Million other people.

          I speak English and have lived in America and went to quite a few games, doesn’t mean I know anything about the MLS. I speak English and have lived in both Sydney and Brisbane, still I know very little about League.

          Being a season ticket-holder doesn’t mean you are still up-to-date with the goings on in The Bundesliga and I think it would be extremely difficult for anyone to have their finger on the pulse of a country when they are based somewhere else. You’ll notice my lack of comments and articles which on the A-League stems directly from not being exposed and immersed in the league.

          I will stick to the belief you have no idea about German football, you have failed to retort to my apples-oranges theory on your “A-League can learn from Bundesliga” article on TWG.

          I have given you a considerable list of points why I think your article is tripe and you have not been able to counter any of them. Your comparison is simply using your “background” of having lived in Germany as the premise for an article and you would have been hard pressed to find a less fitting comparison.

          Reply
          • 

            Mike Tuckerman said | November 18th 2009 @ 9:53pm | Report comment

            I have not been able to counter them? I chose not to, because this is a piece about the 2010 World Cup finals, not the Bundesliga.

            For what it’s worth, it was an opinion piece on the cost of tickets (not a comparison of the two leagues). The lines “…there are plenty of reasons why comparing the Australian league to the Bundesliga isn’t especially useful.

            “German clubs have been around for decades, fans can travel short distances on a high-speed rail network to stand on well-regulated terraces, and they do so in the knowledge that the rest of the stadium is likely to be packed.”

            were intended to highlight that I think there are many reasons why comparing the two leagues isn’t always useful – precisely the reason I was drawing comparisons on ticket prices only.

            And that’s the last I will say on the matter, which as far as I’m concerned has run its course.

  • Shahsan said | November 17th 2009 @ 6:41pm | Report comment

    Jeez, that’s a bit harsh. He wrote one paragraph on Germany in a piece about the World Cup pverall, mate — it wasn’t a critique on the origins, history and prospects of german football and its people. Lighten up!

    Reply

    • AndrewMc said | November 18th 2009 @ 7:02pm | Report comment

      I also live in Germany and can confirm that everything Jan said above is true and that freud is wrong. And as evident in his previous posts, Freud does not care to reason or even stay on topic. So I am not going to bother with him anymore.

      Nice article Mike

      Reply

• Gaz said | November 17th 2009 @ 7:13am | Report comment

  “For the first time in eons, England may actually go into a World Cup with a genuine chance of winning it.”

  NOOO!!! I am so sick of reading that story every time a World Cup comes around. And then they FAIL. And then the papers all say “OH NOES!! What’s wrong with our game?” And then they sack a coach, or a few players retire, and suddenly – magically – four years later they are REAL CONTENDERS AGAIN!!

  Oh, please. England are no better than many other nations at WC2010, but they perennially lack the true grit and gumption that will see minows like NZ or Honduras score a few upsets. It’s not their fault. It’s just too bloody cold, wet and miserable in the UK.

  Reply

  • NUFCMVFC said | November 17th 2009 @ 8:50am | Report comment

    It’s usually said that they can win, because they have the players to do it and many of whom play in UCL winning teams etc. That said England seem to have a strong first XI but generally the world class depth is a bit weak now because of the internatinalisation of its top tier league, as can be seen slightly through the Goalkeeping stocks, with the 3rd keeper often being a lower EPL teams keeper. SO from this perspective their squad as a whole isn’t as strong as some others perhaps.

    I have usually been a tocuh cynical, as England have usually gone into comps with a tactical and in some respects technical naivety given its “direct football” roots but this time under Capello, he does seem to have given England a steel and a tactical focus they have often lacked. This can be evidenced in the Qualifying which contained 3 particpants of the last World Cup, but most notably the difference can be seen in how they defeated Croatia both home and away, and can be contrasted with how different these performances were against the exact same opponents during Euro 2008 qualification. I would say Capello has the capacity to push England that little bit further past the Quarter Finals. But we shall see how they adapt to South African conditions.

    Reply

  • Mattay said | November 17th 2009 @ 8:55am | Report comment

    England are probably better positioned this World Cup than they have been in previous attempts, but I still think they are way off. The hype of the premier league means average players are thought of as being world class. England have deficiencies in midfield, in goals and in defence.

    In goals, they don’t have a genuine world class keeper. Haven’t for a while since Seaman.

    In midfield, the issues with Lampard and Gerrard have been written about many many times. The fact is, neither is a ball winning or more importantly a ball retaining midfielder. In the premier league, where the action and pace is extremely fast, players like Gerrard and Lampard can have an explosive affect. But in the international game, where the build up is still timid and tactical, they struggle because they don’t know what to do when they aren’t going a million miles an hour. No England midfielder knows what to do really.

    And in defence, the rocks of John Terry and Rio Ferdinand are starting to crack. Ferdinand is having one of his worst seasons on record. The backup contains players like Matthew Upson, or Julian Lescott, all good average players.

    England’s only hope will be if the premier league style will win out at international level, as it appears to be doing so in the Champions League, where but for probably one of the greatest club sides in recent history, another English club would have taken out the Cup. If the sheer weight of international players playing week in week out in the EPL influences the style of play of the nations taking part, then that may just be England’s best hope.

    Me? I’m tipping the Dutch. Coz I always do. And I’m always wrong.

    Reply

• Brian said | November 17th 2009 @ 8:55am | Report comment

  Sorry I can’t agree with this article. Firstly the 2002 WC like the 2004 Euros was mischeduled leaving inadequete preparation time and this saw the leading teams misfire. That has since been fixed with the 2006 & 2008 results more to the historical trend. I personally think 2002 should stop being used as an example, it is the exception. Secondly Germany are probably the world’s mentally toughest team and will not be affected by Enke tragic death.

  Thirdly every world cup has minnows and new faces, just like Togo, Jamaica, Angola, Iran, Slovenia and Trinidad & Tobago in recent times, as per my points on scheduling these minnows will not achieve much on-field which is fine – my point is it certainly doesn’t make this WC unique. In fact unlike 1994 (France) or 2002 (Netherlands) it now looks like all the big boys have made it to 2010. If Potugal beat Bosnia, Sweden will probably the biggest team that missed out. Finally England are always “REAL CONTENDERS” but again they will be very unlikely to win. No different to 1998, 2002 or 2006.

  Reply

• NUFCMVFC said | November 17th 2009 @ 8:58am | Report comment

  Regarding the article as a whole, should be good to see some different faces, although I worry for the AFC, because North Korea, while looking solid, have a naivety borne out of not many players playing in Europe, their womens team does well though. South Korea and Japan are experienced, Japan lack a classy international goalscorer as do we, you could even say the same about Korea but they should do well with Park Ji Sung. Obviously Bahrain missed out, which basically means there wouldn’t be many Middle Eastern type teams with the exception perhaps of Egypt via CAF, but considering how “8-0″ Saudi Arabia would struggle at World Cup level despite dominating at Asian level…Let’s hope an Asian team can get through group stages.

  New Zealand will probably get beaten comprehensively against a big powerful nation ala Confeds Cup

  Pity for Costa Rica, but they had their chance I guess, I would imagine Uruguay would be fairly solid like they were at the 2002 World Cup

  Imagine Australia drawing England, Uruguay and New Zealand! Although I would prefer none of them, New Zealand would probably rise against us while getting thrashed by everyone else

  Reply

• Art Sapphire said | November 17th 2009 @ 9:05am | Report comment

  The real difference in the 2010 WC will be the impact of the African nations.

  The last WC was a bit of an anomaly as Cameroon and Nigeria failed to qualify.

  In 2010 we will have Ghana, Ivory Coast, Cameroon, Nigeria (plus Egypt or Algeria) representing the continent.

  This will be the strongest assembly of African talent ever to grace the World Cup.

  Hopefully, for the first time an African nation will at least make it to the semi-finals.

  Reply

• jimbo said | November 17th 2009 @ 9:25am | Report comment

  With a greater spread of nations and FIFA rankings this time, the FIFA WC draw next month will be more important than ever.

  African teams on their home continent are definitely a bigger threat and nations will prefer to draw an Asian or Oceania opponent rather than an African one.

  The Socceroos will probably face a European, South American and African team in the group stages and this is going to be much harder than Germany 06 to progress.

  Reply

• Simmo said | November 17th 2009 @ 9:31am | Report comment

  Spain ftw

  Reply

• clayton said | November 17th 2009 @ 9:32am | Report comment

  poor England – they have missed one world cup since 1986, and usually make the last 16. must suck to be them.

  would love to see a new country join the winners club – could it finally be Africa`s time?

  Reply
• 

  Michael C said | November 17th 2009 @ 9:42am | Report comment

  What are the chances of a group made up of England, Sth Africa, Australian and NZ??

  Reply

  • Art Sapphire said | November 17th 2009 @ 10:00am | Report comment

    Its possible Michael -

    Sth Africa as host nation will be in the first pot along with all big 7 teams.

    If France qualify for the WC, England will most likely be relegated from the 1st Pot to the 2nd Pot.

    Australia will most likely be in the 3rd pot.

    NZ will be in the 4th pot.

    Reply

  • Brian said | November 17th 2009 @ 10:03am | Report comment

    Somewhere between non-existent to zero. FIFA havnt announed seedings yet but it is very likely that England will join South Africa in the pot of top seeds. Its also very like for NZ to be in the same pot as Australia so we will not meet them in the group stage. Unless FIFA surprise the pots will be as follows:-

    Pot 1: South Africa, Brazil, Argentina, Italy, Germany, Spain, France, England
    Pot 2: Netherlands, Denmark, Switzerland, Slovakia, Serbia, Portugal/Bosnia, Greece/Ukraine, Russia/Slovenia
    Pot 3: Chile, Paraguay, Uruguay, Nigeria, Ghana, Ivory Coast, Cameroon, Egypt/Algeria
    Pot 4: USA, Mexico, Honduras, Australia, Japan, S Korea, N Korea, New Zealand

    The Dutch are unlikely to be top seeds having failed to qualify in 2002 and reached only the 2nd Round in 2006. Even if FIFA switch CONCACAF to be with CAF, Australia will still be in the same pot as NZ.

    Marketing wise the tastiest it could get (if CONCACAF goes in pot 3) would be England, Greece, USA, Australia.

    Reply

    • Art Sapphire said | November 17th 2009 @ 10:24am | Report comment

      Brian – you can’t just invent groups out of thin air.
      My post was based on factual information. Yours was the figment of your imagination.

      The next Fifa world rankings, which will decide the seeding, will be released on November 20, after the play offs have been finalized. This means that France can replace England in the 1st pot.

      http://www.kickoff.com/static/news/article.php?id=12264

      2010 FIFA WORLD CUP SEEDING AS OF TODAY:

      POT 1
      1. South Africa
      2. Brazil
      3. Spain
      4. Netherlands
      5. Italy
      6. Germany
      7. Argentina
      8. England

      POT 2
      1. France/Republic of Ireland
      2. Portugal/Bosnia Herzegovina
      3. USA
      4. Russia/Slovenia
      5. Switzerland
      6. Cameroon
      7. Greece/Ukraine
      8. Chile

      POT 3
      1. Mexico
      2. Ivory Coast
      3. Serbia
      4. Paraguay
      5. Australia
      6. Uruguay/Costa Rica
      7. Denmark
      8. Egypt/Algeria

      POT 4
      1. Nigeria
      2. Slovakia
      3. Honduras
      4. Ghana
      5. Japan
      6. Korea Republic
      7. New Zealand
      8. Korea DPR

      Allowing for the possiblilty that all the unseeded European teams end up in Pot 2.

      Australia will definitely be in Pot 3 and the Kiwis in Pot 4

      Reply

      • Brian said | November 17th 2009 @ 10:39am | Report comment

        http://www.football-rankings.info/2009/10/2010-world-cup-last-two-pots.html

        Guess what we can all quote websites with speculative declarations and post them as “fact”. FIFA have as yet never based the seedings on their rankings. They have always had a top seeds pot followed by pots based on goergraphical location. Further that top pot is usually a combination of rankings and previous performances at World Cups. Now I don’t have a direct line with Sepp but unless you have an authorotative source for your “facts” that only rankings will be used for the first time ever please acknowledge your speculation for what it is.

        Reply

        • Art Sapphire said | November 17th 2009 @ 11:20am | Report comment

          Brian – Ok, I jumped the gun. I agree its all speculation until FIFA tells us otherwise. However, you went ahead a made up the pots.

          Reply

      • Alextman said | November 17th 2009 @ 10:51am | Report comment

        Only the top 8 teams (including Sth Africa) will receive a seeding. The other three pots will be based confederation, not ranking.Also, based on previous draws, the seedings aren’t based on rankings alone, previous results in World Cups also count.

        I think our chances of having NZ in our pot are dependant on if Uruguay beat Costa Rica. If they do (which they most likely will) I imagine the pots would look something like this:

        Pot 1 – Seeds (5 Euro, 2 Sth America, Sth Africa)
        Pot 2 – 5 Africa, 3 Sth America
        Pot 3 – 4 Asia, 3 Nth America, NZ
        Pot 4 – 8 Euro

        But if Costa Rica pull something out of the bag then NZ will probably move into the African/Sth America pot.

        It should also be said that FIFA still haven’t finalised the system for this year’s draw, so I could be completely wrong!

        Reply

        • sheek said | November 17th 2009 @ 11:26am | Report comment

          This thread is rapidly going to POT!

          Reply

          • Art Sapphire said | November 17th 2009 @ 11:39am | Report comment

            You are right sheek – we are all going potty.
            Hurry up December 4!!

    • Ben of Phnom Penh said | November 17th 2009 @ 10:55am | Report comment

      Brian, I think that we can get the same group as NZ however it depends upon how Costa Rica go against Uruguay… apparently. At the end of the day we’ll get who we get. The speculation is merely a way to expend some of the nervous energy we all feel.

      Reply

      • Brian said | November 17th 2009 @ 11:50am | Report comment

        Art – Yes I made up the pots but it was based on recent history. I dont rate or give the Costa Ricans a chance so hence my pot assumptions. Hopefully we get a group we can get out of. I also agree the Ivorians are the big X factor with Drogba, Yaya Toure etc.

        Reply

• Ben of Phnom Penh said | November 17th 2009 @ 10:50am | Report comment

  I must confess that I am intrigued as to how the African nations will fare. Chances are that Nigeria, Cameroon et al will find themselves with solid South African support behind them when they take to the field. It will be also interesting to see if the All Whites garner any support from the South Africans due to the All Blacks.

  I’ve also read this morning how the Sudanese security forces have switched into top gear for the Algeria – Egypt clash this Wednesday. Now that’s a match I’d like to see live to air.

  The worst part of the world football calendar is almost upon us…… the seven month wait between the draw in December and the whistle of the first game of the World Cup. Thank God for a couple of Asian Cup qualifiers to keep my mind occupied.

  Reply

  • True Tah said | November 18th 2009 @ 7:04am | Report comment

    Ben

    I dont think South Africans will get behind Nigeria, there is some xenophobia in South Africa towards people from other African nations (they were burning Zimbabweans to death not so long ago)…I can recall Nelson Mandela had a motivational talk with the South African futbol team in 1996, when they won the African Nations Cup, they were playing Nigeria, Mandela said words to the effect of “you had better beat these guys, because Nigeria helped prop up the apartheid regime for so many years”.

    They have Bafana Bafana to support, unfortunately they are not faring so well at the moment.

    Reply

    • AndyRoo said | November 19th 2009 @ 9:53am | Report comment

      I wonder though if it changes once other continents are involved.

      Like in Rugby we spend 7 months hoping South Africa and NZ lose because they are our comeptition….then when they go to Europe I hope they do well (ok maybe not the Springboks)

      Reply