Like in Rugby we spend 7 months hoping South Africa and NZ lose because they are our comeptition….then when they go to Europe I hope they do well (ok maybe not the Springboks)

~~~~~~~
KB

Time for TV replays in soccer to catch up with the rest of sporting world. Maybe Michel Platini will agree when he sees this video evidence. Not.

How the ref missed this is scandalous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl1hEGELF4o

Even so, the Irish should have been 2 up by then – Duff missed golden chance.

France are an embarassment – Domenech is a joke!!

Firstly regarding the keepers. You are correct in saying there was talk of a “clear generational cut”, I’m not sure how realistic this was as Germany prides itself too much on it’s results and have always had strong keepers, the National team has never been a place for young keepers and as such I would suggest it was Hildebrand who was earmarked to take over from Kahn/Lehmann who should have both departed at the same time.

Hildebrand however screwed that up in leaving Stuttgart, he was a massive flop in Spain and came back with his tail between his legs to Hoffenheim and while Hoffenheim mightn’t be cannon-fodder, it’s not exactly the place where the German National Team’s Goalkeeper is likely to play his club football. Same goes for Enke, Hannover were never going to be challenging for honours and as such it’s hard to see how he was ever going to be first choice material at a mid-table club.

As for the race being between Adler/Neuer and not Rensing. Adler and Neuer both have their backers, but Rensing most certainly does too. Lehmann spoke out in his favour http://www.bild.de/BILD/sport/fussball/nationalmannschaft/2009/06/27/jens-lehmann/michael-rensing-soll-zur-weltmeisterschaft.html (as much as I hate to use Bild as an example, that was the first result and it’s interesting to note the article makes no mention of Hildebrand) but this was before the season fell apart and of course being Kahn’s protégé he has always had a preference for Rensing.

Further, you seem to have a bit of a short memory because at the start of last season there was plenty of praise for Rensing, he mightn’t have had a good season this year but don’t forget; “form is temporary, class is permanent”. The blame can be attributed to so many other factors that I’m sure Rensing will bounce back at another club where circumstances suit.

Moving on to the social aspects. I’m not sure where you live but I don’t think the term “Hauptschüler” when referring to someone of a lower class is geographically constrained, I’ve heard it used more-or-less across the country when referring to people who work “lesser” jobs, hang around at Bahnhof’s and drink beer at the Imbiss on the corner during lunch breaks.

The middle class in Germany are quite snobby and look down on the painters and plumbers of the world, partly because of their inferior education and partly because this class is predominantly Turks and Eastern Europeans, I certainly wouldn’t go as far as calling them racists but that gap, between the classes is clearly defined.

And yes the different papers did have totally different takes on Enke’s suicide. While FAZ will always remain classy, Bild played it up with as many tear-jerkers as they could think of to sell as many papers as they could, that’s why today, 8 days after his death Enke is still on the front page of their site: http://www.bild.de/BILD/sport/fussball/nationalmannschaft/2009/11/18/deutsche-nationalelf-schreibt/abschiedsbrief-fuer-toten-robert-enke.html

It’s the same as Michael Jackson’s death, a week later there was a musical about the man, the Amazon charts, the day after were all MJ songs, even today one of the main stories on The Sun in England is about Jackson – that’s how tabloids work, they write rubbish to make a lot of money and that rubbish is generally read by those in the lower classes, german society is no different to any other in that respect.

Not once did I downplay depression. I simply do not believe that Enke’s death;

A) Was worthy of the press it received
B) Had any place in this article

If the German team can’t “deal” with it then I’m sorry but they shouldn’t be playing for Germany. They’ve always possessed mentally strong sides and any team that falls apart or can’t perform to 100% because of a death with minimal influence – when compared to how big of a loss Ballack for example would be – on the side doesn’t deserve to represent Germany.

Given that Tuckerman’s credentials equal having no idea about the Bundesliga in your book, I could of course use the same argument here.

“However I challenge you to prove me wrong on any of my points”

“Germany have some fine keepers, Hildebrand is every bit as good as Enke was and then Adler is pretty good too, Neuer should get the number one jersey as he has bags of talent as does Rensing who will get it together once he leaves Munich and with that pair you have the next Kahn-Lehmann type battle.”

Hildebrand is a talented modern keeper indeed. His reflexes and agility are excellent and in that respect he is on the same level as Enke. Enke though was better at anticipating the game and at controlling his penalty box. Hildebrand isn’t much of a penalty killer, while Enke had outstanding stats in that respect. All in all, Andreas Köpke and Jogi Löw were certainly right picking Enke ahead of e.g. Hildebrand. Adler and Neuer are certainly the future. Rensing is a talented goalkeeper, and he should be able to do well at another Bundesliga club and become a good goalkeeper. I don’t see him challenging either Adler or Neuer or Wiese or even Hildebrand. Rensing is a classically trained goalkeeper who is strong on the line but not much more. This deficit sees him competing with the likes of Wiese, while Neuer and Adler are out of reach. And Rensing will need to seriously up his game to reach Wiese’s level to begin with. Neuer vs Rensing certainly won’t be the next Kahn-Lehmann battle. The “battle” between those keepers was a rather late invention anyway. Until Klinsmann, Kahn was simply declared #1 and Lehmann was never given a fair chance.

“… but it was the third choice behind Kahn and Lehmann, Hildebrand so stop trying to play the emotion card on everyone just because you have nothing better to write about Germany than the “tragic suicide” of their “popular teammate”.”
“The simple fact is, no-one cared about Enke. He WAS third choice behind Kahn and Lehmann (that’s why he managed a mere 8 caps by the age of 32.”

In 2006 Enke was the fourth choice keeper. Klinsmann had included him in his extended squad for the World Cup. This was two years after he had joined Hannover, reestablished himself as one of Germany’s best goalkeepers and got his career back on track, after his Barcelona odyssey – where he was first diagnosed with depression. After the World Cup, Oliver Kahn retired and Enke was promoted to 2nd goalkeeper behind Lehmann – taking turns with Hildebrand. By the time the Euros came around he was officially Germany’s #2. Though, Lehmann’s selection as #1 was more down to status and merit, rather than form. Lehmann had been sitting on the bench at Arsenal for most of the season and looked erratic in Germany’s friendlies. It was one of a few squad selection decisions by Löw, which were criticized, as Germany’s defense turned out to be very shaky, with Lehmann playing his destabilizing part. Following the Euros, Löw decided against declaring a new #1 and instead let the likes of Enke, Neuer, Adler and Wiese compete against each other. Enke looked to come out on top, as Löw declared him the #1 choice for the crucial World Cup qualifiers (http://www.shortnews.de/start.cfm?id=784239). Unfortunately for Enke a stomach virus put him out of action and Adler seized the opportunity. But Enke was still very much in the running to be Germany’s #1.

Oliver Kahn was 29 when he took over as Germany’s #1 and Lehmann was quite a bit older than Enke, when he replaced Kahn. Both hadn’t earned a lot of caps until then either.
Also, people didn’t just care about Enke because he was an excellent keeper, but because he was a wonderful person. Humble, thoughtful, easy going and all in all the exact opposite of your stereotypical “mad goalkeeper” and egomaniac football star. People cared about Enke, because of what he went through in his life.

“anyone with half an idea about German football can see that the Number 1 is going to be battled for between Neuer and Rensing, Enke, if he would have been picked, was merely a temporary solution.”

No, there is a group who favored choosing the new #1 between Neuer and Adler. Rensing doesn’t play a part here anymore. The idea was to make a clear generational cut and go with the youngsters and skip the generation of Enke, Hildebrand and Wiese. But then again there was also a group favoring Enke to take over, allowing Neuer and Adler to perfect their skills and become World Class on club level first. Both keepers had recently seen some dips in form with the occasional blunder, suggesting they could use some time to become more consistent. Something Enke had been for years.

The question how the German national team will cope with Enke’s death is perfectly valid. Michael Ballack knew Enke since the age of 13 and other players were his friends. It’s nothing they’ll just brush aside. But the outcome doesn’t need to be negative, as it could also help bring the players closer together and motivate them to win the cup for Robert.

“What I consider to be “normal” is most certainly not in the minority. I would say the painters, plumbers etc., those generally referred to as “Hauptschüler” who come from a different social class (the gap in social classes in Germany is something most Australians couldn’t comprehend) to the one I live in might be sympathetic of his plight, but Germany is a far more educated country than that.

I can’t say I socialise with a lot of people from the aforementioned class, most of the people I know are middle or upper-middle class, relatively well educated and there are still a number of passionate football fans amongst them and if you want to try and say the middle and upper-middle class is the minority in Germany, well you have rocks in your head.”

Painters and plumbers are generally referred to as painters and plumbers. And this really has nothing to do with class or educational backgrounds. Whether its FAZ or Spiegel catering to your “normal” people or the gutter press BILD and Express, they all had similar agendas. None of them depicted Enke’s death as a selfish act with Germany’s “stupid and poor” making way too big a deal about it. They instead talked about Enke’s life, his character, his achievements, his struggles. They talked about depression, they talked to people who suffer/ed from it or who treat it. They tried to raise awareness and pledged to rid depression of its stigma. They pointed out how depression influences your thoughts, feelings and behavior and how people suffering from it, are no longer able to make rational (i.e. selfish) choices.

“Go get yourself a map, now draw a 200 km radius around Hannover and see how many big cities you encompass, you’ll notice immediately that in that radius there are millions, tens of millions of people. 45000 is a very small percentage of the population, conveniently located near Hannover that might have given a damn.”

Point taken. There are 1 million people living in the Hannover metropolitan area and the federal state has 7.7 million. Germany is a compact, densely populated country. And yet these things don’t happen every week, month, year or even decade for some reason.

But it’s really not just in the numbers, it’s the overall impact and legacy. Hoffenheim’s central defender Joe Simunic has come out and talked about how he suffered from depression earlier in his career, other athletes have done the same. Stan Collymore, a former PL player talked about his struggle with depression and his suicidal thoughts. The German FA wants to do something to help. Germany’s chancellor Angela Merkel has come out and talked about the topic and how it applies to people working in politics as well etc. There’s the distinct wish that Enke’s death wasn’t for nothing so to say, but that our society learned something from it and changes for the better. Whether that’ll actually happen is a whole different question of course.

For what it’s worth, it was an opinion piece on the cost of tickets (not a comparison of the two leagues). The lines “…there are plenty of reasons why comparing the Australian league to the Bundesliga isn’t especially useful.

“German clubs have been around for decades, fans can travel short distances on a high-speed rail network to stand on well-regulated terraces, and they do so in the knowledge that the rest of the stadium is likely to be packed.”

were intended to highlight that I think there are many reasons why comparing the two leagues isn’t always useful – precisely the reason I was drawing comparisons on ticket prices only.

And that’s the last I will say on the matter, which as far as I’m concerned has run its course.

You have written some good stuff on Asian football but you obviously still do not grasp German football. You speak the language? So what? So do 100 Million other people.

I speak English and have lived in America and went to quite a few games, doesn’t mean I know anything about the MLS. I speak English and have lived in both Sydney and Brisbane, still I know very little about League.

Being a season ticket-holder doesn’t mean you are still up-to-date with the goings on in The Bundesliga and I think it would be extremely difficult for anyone to have their finger on the pulse of a country when they are based somewhere else. You’ll notice my lack of comments and articles which on the A-League stems directly from not being exposed and immersed in the league.

I will stick to the belief you have no idea about German football, you have failed to retort to my apples-oranges theory on your “A-League can learn from Bundesliga” article on TWG.

I have given you a considerable list of points why I think your article is tripe and you have not been able to counter any of them. Your comparison is simply using your “background” of having lived in Germany as the premise for an article and you would have been hard pressed to find a less fitting comparison.

The only person who really knows who will fill the role of goalkeeper in South Africa is Joachim Löw, and unless I’m mistaken I haven’t seen him post here as yet. Everything else is informed opinion and if these didn’t vary then blogs would be rather tiresome places indeed.

EDIT: oh, and on the actual topic on hand which is far more interesting…. what are the odds of a Maradonna led Argentina doing a France 2002?

You’re entitled to share whatever opinion you see fit, but I thought this information might prove useful the next time you claim I have “no idea about German football.”

Nice article Mike

However I challenge you to prove me wrong on any of my points about Rensing, Wiese, Hildebrand, Neuer or Enke. Or even the Kahn and Lehmann saga. All of my points could be backed up with articles, you merely made an assumption.

What I consider to be “normal” is most certainly not in the minority. I would say the painters, plumbers etc., those generally referred to as “Hauptschüler” who come from a different social class (the gap in social classes in Germany is something most Australians couldn’t comprehend) to the one I live in might be sympathetic of his plight, but Germany is a far more educated country than that.

I can’t say I socialise with a lot of people from the aforementioned class, most of the people I know are middle or upper-middle class, relatively well educated and there are still a number of passionate football fans amongst them and if you want to try and say the middle and upper-middle class is the minority in Germany, well you have rocks in your head.

“Well, it was only the second largest public memorial since the death of West Germany’s first chancelor Konrad Adenauer, so no it’s not nothing it’s a lot in “superbig”, lol, Germany too.” – How many thousand turned out to see C. Ronaldo presented in Madrid for example?

I also made the point earlier, 2.5 billion watched Princess Di’s funeral on TV, including yours truly, I didn’t care about it, she was nobody to me and her death was a lot more unfortunate of Enke – the numbers don’t tell the true story.

Lastly, why on earth would I belittle Australia? I am Australian. I merely noted that 45,000 is not that much when you compare that with Australia. In Aus, there are numerous stretches of road, 500+ kilometers long where the towns along the way would have a combined population of 45,000.

Go get yourself a map, now draw a 200 km radius around Hannover and see how many big cities you encompass, you’ll notice immediately that in that radius there are millions, tens of millions of people. 45000 is a very small percentage of the population, conveniently located near Hannover that might have given a damn.

Last but not least, if the club captain of any other club died tomorrow, just as many people would show up to a funeral service, I hope it doesn’t happen but suggesting otherwise is nonsense.

I dont think South Africans will get behind Nigeria, there is some xenophobia in South Africa towards people from other African nations (they were burning Zimbabweans to death not so long ago)…I can recall Nelson Mandela had a motivational talk with the South African futbol team in 1996, when they won the African Nations Cup, they were playing Nigeria, Mandela said words to the effect of “you had better beat these guys, because Nigeria helped prop up the apartheid regime for so many years”.

They have Bafana Bafana to support, unfortunately they are not faring so well at the moment.

“Dasilva, I live in Germany and even the German’s thought it was a huge beatup, normal people have said who selfish he was and how the coverage was disproportional to the event. His funeral attendance seems so large because of the Australian perspective, 45000 people is nothing in Germany. I see that many at rallies all the time.”

I live in Germany and what you call “normal” is a minority. When you have an event that creates a huge response by the public and the media, you will always have people who will criticize the proportions. That is true and was also the case here. When you are dealing with suicide, you will always have people who will call it “selfish” because their limited worldview denies them compassion and a deeper insight into the illness that is depression.

The reality is though, that both sets of people were a clear minority in Enke’s case. You will need to bash and discredit every single German newspaper, TV station and the majority of people in Germany etc. in your desperate attempts to downplay the effect Enke’s death had.

Also stop your stupid belittling of Australia. “45000 people is nothing in Germany” – Well, it was only the second largest public memorial since the death of West Germany’s first chancelor Konrad Adenauer, so no it’s not nothing it’s a lot in “superbig”, lol, Germany too.

Also, belittling Enke’s status is wrong on many levels as well and your claims about superior Bundesliga knowledge – your comments suggest you have no clue about the two topics.

Then Egypt/Algeria and from pot 2 … USA or Greece …

In the first final play. Switzerland

That gets us to the final 8..

I do think England will be the drk horse this time…

Rensing (who has played for Germany at U17, U19, U21 level) is sure to leave Bayern (as you’d know if you kept yourself up-to-date), the question is whether it will be in January or the summer, my guess is the latter as Bayern won’t want to do business for another keeper in Winter.

You would also know the expectations heaped on Rensing (if you were up-to-date) and know that replacing Kahn was an impossible task, that Kahn said he was good enough probably wasn’t what he needed as he was always going to struggle, the seal of approval from Kahn and the press coverage given to him were always going to make it harder, that the 3 Amigo’s can’t keep their mouth’s shut also doesn’t help, that Bayern can’t settle on a manager has just been a further point not to mention the rubbish defence they’ve been putting out over the last years (Lucio is a fine individual but defending starts from the front).

Rensing didn’t have the experience to takeover from Kahn, anyone could see that he has the talent but Bayern wouldn’t loan him out, preferring him to play in the 2′s which simply aren’t up to the standard that he needed to develop.

Come back in 3-4 years once Rensing has settled somewhere and we will see whose right. I wouldn’t make a statement about him if I wasn’t informed but I get the feeling you’ll milk your meagre knowledge of the Bundesliga until you’ve squeezed every cent you can out of SBS and they finally notice that there are far more knowledgable people who possess far greater insight than yourself (or me).

But regardless of what I personally feel about Robert Enke, the fact is I simply passed on the sentiments expressed in the likes of Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Kicker Magazin, Deutsche Welle and a host of other reputable news outlets who expressed shock at the tragic passing of the man that many of these outlets considered the goalkeeper most likely to start in South Africa.

are you going to deny that the needless death of a young man, a husband, a father, is a tragedy? he died as a result of a debilitating chronic condition that is readily treatable. tragic, by my definition.

However Tuckerman line “How Germany recovers from the tragic suicide of goalkeeper Robert Enke remains to be seen, but with the squad understandably devastated by the passing of their popular teammate, they may find the burden of honouring his memory a heavy one to overcome.”

You took that line and started a rant about it.

However Tuckerman’s main point is not how much the death will impact the nation but more about how it impact the squad. It seems you took your frustration about the media portrayal of Enke, build it up and then released it on the first guy who mention his name.

unless you are really saying that a member of your team dying will not going to affect the squad performance anyway then I don’t really believe your statement has any merit on Mike’s point. There’s a good chance that there will be players in that team who are friends with Enke (unless Enke was a complete loner and had no friends in the national set up) who want to win the world cup and honour his death. So I don’t know what the problem is.

Hell if someone like Archie Thompson dies before the world cup who probably not good enough to make the squad, I’m quite sure key players in the squad like Cahill, Culina, Neill who are close friends with Archie will have their performance affected by it and want to honour his death by their performance at the world cup as well