No World Cup for All Blacks with that scrum
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By RugbyThinker, 18 Nov 2009 RugbyThinker is a Roar Rookie
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What is it with Graham Henry and Steve Hansen? Are they really that paranoid that after an indifferent performance in Milan, they can’t recognise they were out-scrummaged by Italy, and that they were lucky not to have conceded a penalty try?
What is wrong in accepting that teams like Italy are improving and that a second string All Black team had a difficult day at the office?
No, all we get is accusations against the referee. Henry called it a farce, but the only farce is his reaction.
Now, Dickinson’s general performance left a lot to be desired, but he actually helped the All Blacks by not giving the Italians a penalty try at the end of the match.
Credit should be given to a powerhouse front row in Castrogiovanni, Ghiraldini and Perugini. The Leicester powerhouse Castrogiovanni had destroyed the Springbok front row days earlier.
The All Blacks scrum is in trouble. Australia, which has had a terrible scrum in recent years, has now seemingly passed the Blacks in that department as shown in the Tri-Nations.
Little wonder that on tour up north, where scrum is considered king by many countries like Italy, the All Black scrum is struggling.
Since Carl Hayman left for the north, the Kiwi scrum has not been the same.
With such a platform, the Italians enjoyed better territory and possession, but did not have anyone behind the scrum remotely capable of doing anything constructive.
If they had a playmaker, who knows what might have happened?
If Henry doesn’t address this set piece problem by admitting firstly that there are flaws, then New Zealand will not win the World Cup with what he has. Even on home soil.
The All Blacks won the game, regained top place in the International Rugby Board World Rankings and have a hugely impressive squad developing. But it could all come undone without the foundation of a solid scrum.
The current laws with the limited approval of the ELVs means the set piece is vital.
Based on the weekend’s performances, the best scrums in world rugby at present belong to Argentina, Italy and an improving France, who comfortably beat the Springboks after a close series in New Zealand earlier in the year.
One can only suspect by the current paranoia and verbal gibberish that Henry is feeling the pressure.
Is France in New Zealand’s Rugby World Cup pool, by any chance?
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The Gosling said | November 18th 2009 @ 5:04am | Report comment
Clutching at straws here. Guess what would have happened if, like New Zealand, Australia played their second string front row against Italy? They’d still be picking their teeth out of their arse.
Yes the Wallabies have finally found two props that won’t embarrass them but what about three and four? They’d be too petrified to dip their net back into the pool looking because they’d hear it clanging on the bottom.
New Zealand’s trying to blood some new guys and have some learning the ropes in Crockett and Franks. Back in NZ they also have Jamie MacKintosh. These guys might be struggling now, as Carl Hayman did when he was a newby, but there are two very long years to go until the World Cup.
And let’s not forget that if Hayman goes back to NZ, which would have to be a 50% chance, the All Blacks could go through the pointy end of a world cup campaign with him, Woodcock and Hore manning the front row. That unit would still be the best in the world.
The real problem is that the current second tier of Tialata and Afoa is bereft and has been forever. That’s where the three young fellas come in. One or two of them may even be challenging for a starting spot by 2011. Let’s put it this way…do you see NZ S14 scrums going backwards often? No. The talent’s there, they just need their time in the mines to learn the trade.
Some more continuity in the ABs second row will also help the scrum. Brad Thorn has been the only constant in the tight five this year but, again, the kiwis have about three or four locks lining up to cement a spot into the future. Ali Williams will likely be one. The other spot will probably be taken by Ross or Boric, who could both be outstanding. The real trick is developing one of those into an enforcer capable of replacing Thorn, who cannot be relied upon to last through 2011.
Gosling
PS – the refereeing of the scrum was a joke. If the ABs were in the wrong seven times then Dickinson should have whistled a penalty try, ipso facto Henry’s call that DIckinson kooked it stands. I think what NZ is suggesting is that the reason Dickinson didn’t blow a penalty try is because he didn’t really believe they deserved one against them. The inference there being that he was just blowing penalties to try and restart the game. Personally, I don’t know. I played hooker many times and I still can’t tell what’s going on from watching tv. If you can, you’re better than me.
Killerwhale said | November 18th 2009 @ 5:29am | Report comment
You might want to read the article on Rugby Heaven about those penalties.
Killerwhale said | November 18th 2009 @ 5:18am | Report comment
You might want to read the apology from Paddy O’Brien where he states that Dickinson got it “completely wrong”. Which contributed to the dire match. Looks like mallet and yourself are suffering from gibberish.
Lindommer said | November 18th 2009 @ 10:46pm | Report comment
I suspect the “statement” from Paddy O’Brien is a wind-up from a New Zealand blog site masquerading as serious journalism.
Jerry said | November 18th 2009 @ 5:26am | Report comment
The scrum that lined up against Italy was almost completely second choice players. Unless the likes of Romania and Portugal can pull off a huge upset, I don’t think that scrum will have any bearing on the AB’s chances in 2011.
Matt said | November 18th 2009 @ 5:29am | Report comment
Nice try, but your article is completely proven wrong by Paddy O’Brien, the IRB referees Boss, making an unprecedented and transparent apology for the substandard refereeing by Dickinson. This is mainly centred on the scrum where a review of the match footage has lead O’Brien to warn Dickinson to up his game and to open state that Castrogiavanni and Perugini got away with “boring in” and that Dickinson’s repeated penalising of the New Zealanders was “completely wrong”.
Quote from Paddy O’Brien: “The best example I can use is in the last 10 minutes there were eight scrums of which seven the tighthead for Italy is purely illegal,” . “Up here they’re crying that it should have been a penalty try. It should have been a penalty first scrum to the All Blacks.”
So, no the All Blacks scrum has not been overtaken by the Wallabies and no it should not have been a penalty try to the AB’s. And no, Tialata should not have been sent of and no Dickinson in not very good at ‘refereeing’ at scrum because he clearly guessed and he got it wrong 90% of the time in Milan.
And after such a travesty of a performance from the referee what did the All Blacks do, they asked for more “clarity” next time while fielding all kinds of criticism suggesting that their scrum was weak. Pity they couldn’t come out and say ‘the ref was completely wrong’ without people calling it sour grapes.
The Aussie scrum has one decent component in Benn Robinson, but after that it’s pretty sub par (but improving). Whereas this weekend the AB’s will roll out the big boys (Woodcock, Hore, Franks) for the English. When the inevitable return of Hayman occurs there’ll be some genuine class props missing out on WC selection.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/3073661/All-Blacks-get-Paddy-O-Brien-refereeing-apology
Jonathan said | November 18th 2009 @ 3:04pm | Report comment
“Pity they couldn’t come out and say ‘the ref was completely wrong’ without people calling it sour grapes.” This is the only sentence in your reply where I have to say you’re wrong. Even though they didn’t say that, MANY pundits have “analyzed” the footage with their “expert” opinions and deemed the All Blacks scrum as a lost cause and the coaches were using it as an excuse to cover their “inadequacies”. Its sad when you voice your frustrations and still get SO many people interpreting it as an excuse which is totally unacceptable. I’m just glad Paddy O’Brien came clean with an apology and helped to enlighten the so called “experts” in this matter. I’m sure the same pundits to try to save their reputation would call this a farce as well. I just want to see how many have the balls to stand up and apologize for their mistake!
katzilla said | November 18th 2009 @ 6:08am | Report comment
Our front row at the WC will likely be Hayman, Hore, Woodcock – Not Tialata, Flynn, Crockett
The engine power of Boric and Donelly is not quite the same as Thorn, Jack or Williams.
We’ll be fine. Us not winning the next WC will have nothing to do with the Scrum.
Darwin hammer said | November 18th 2009 @ 8:40am | Report comment
Time to delete this article from the website methinks – as it’s now been proven to not be based on fact courtesy of Paddy O’Brien ….
Ziontrain said | November 18th 2009 @ 9:50am | Report comment
Pretty ignorant article buddy
ExpatSin said | November 18th 2009 @ 9:50am | Report comment
Mr Rugbythinker. Time to change your name to Mr Rugby-non-thinker I think. You obviously where not watching the same game we where.
Dean Pantio said | November 18th 2009 @ 9:53am | Report comment
“What is it with Graham Henry and Steve Hansen? Are they really that paranoid that after an indifferent performance in Milan, they can’t recognise they were out-scrummaged by Italy, and that they were lucky not to have conceded a penalty try?”
Probably because, unlike you and the ref, they know what they’re talking about.
Matt said | November 18th 2009 @ 9:55am | Report comment
In RugbyThinkers defense, before Paddy O’Brien made the public apology the opinions he expressed in his articles mimiced a lot of what was being said in the media. Not to mention the man who hold the joint record for successive winning streak of test matches (Nick Mallet) saying that he thought it should have been a penalty try.
What does that say about a) His knowledge or scrummaging or b) His honesty?
If O’Brien hadn’t been so transparent then we’d all be wondering what exactly had been going on in those scrums.