By RugbyThinker -
November 18th 2009 @ 1:57am
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Loading ...No World Cup for All Blacks with that scrum
What is it with Graham Henry and Steve Hansen? Are they really that paranoid that after an indifferent performance in Milan, they can’t recognise they were out-scrummaged by Italy, and that they were lucky not to have conceded a penalty try?
What is wrong in accepting that teams like Italy are improving and that a second string All Black team had a difficult day at the office?
No, all we get is accusations against the referee. Henry called it a farce, but the only farce is his reaction.
Now, Dickinson’s general performance left a lot to be desired, but he actually helped the All Blacks by not giving the Italians a penalty try at the end of the match.
Credit should be given to a powerhouse front row in Castrogiovanni, Ghiraldini and Perugini. The Leicester powerhouse Castrogiovanni had destroyed the Springbok front row days earlier.
The All Blacks scrum is in trouble. Australia, which has had a terrible scrum in recent years, has now seemingly passed the Blacks in that department as shown in the Tri-Nations.
Little wonder that on tour up north, where scrum is considered king by many countries like Italy, the All Black scrum is struggling.
Since Carl Hayman left for the north, the Kiwi scrum has not been the same.
With such a platform, the Italians enjoyed better territory and possession, but did not have anyone behind the scrum remotely capable of doing anything constructive.
If they had a playmaker, who knows what might have happened?
If Henry doesn’t address this set piece problem by admitting firstly that there are flaws, then New Zealand will not win the World Cup with what he has. Even on home soil.
The All Blacks won the game, regained top place in the International Rugby Board World Rankings and have a hugely impressive squad developing. But it could all come undone without the foundation of a solid scrum.
The current laws with the limited approval of the ELVs means the set piece is vital.
Based on the weekend’s performances, the best scrums in world rugby at present belong to Argentina, Italy and an improving France, who comfortably beat the Springboks after a close series in New Zealand earlier in the year.
One can only suspect by the current paranoia and verbal gibberish that Henry is feeling the pressure.
Is France in New Zealand’s Rugby World Cup pool, by any chance?
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(39)
The Gosling said | November 18th 2009 @ 5:04am | Report comment
Clutching at straws here. Guess what would have happened if, like New Zealand, Australia played their second string front row against Italy? They’d still be picking their teeth out of their arse.
Yes the Wallabies have finally found two props that won’t embarrass them but what about three and four? They’d be too petrified to dip their net back into the pool looking because they’d hear it clanging on the bottom.
New Zealand’s trying to blood some new guys and have some learning the ropes in Crockett and Franks. Back in NZ they also have Jamie MacKintosh. These guys might be struggling now, as Carl Hayman did when he was a newby, but there are two very long years to go until the World Cup.
And let’s not forget that if Hayman goes back to NZ, which would have to be a 50% chance, the All Blacks could go through the pointy end of a world cup campaign with him, Woodcock and Hore manning the front row. That unit would still be the best in the world.
The real problem is that the current second tier of Tialata and Afoa is bereft and has been forever. That’s where the three young fellas come in. One or two of them may even be challenging for a starting spot by 2011. Let’s put it this way…do you see NZ S14 scrums going backwards often? No. The talent’s there, they just need their time in the mines to learn the trade.
Some more continuity in the ABs second row will also help the scrum. Brad Thorn has been the only constant in the tight five this year but, again, the kiwis have about three or four locks lining up to cement a spot into the future. Ali Williams will likely be one. The other spot will probably be taken by Ross or Boric, who could both be outstanding. The real trick is developing one of those into an enforcer capable of replacing Thorn, who cannot be relied upon to last through 2011.
Gosling
PS – the refereeing of the scrum was a joke. If the ABs were in the wrong seven times then Dickinson should have whistled a penalty try, ipso facto Henry’s call that DIckinson kooked it stands. I think what NZ is suggesting is that the reason Dickinson didn’t blow a penalty try is because he didn’t really believe they deserved one against them. The inference there being that he was just blowing penalties to try and restart the game. Personally, I don’t know. I played hooker many times and I still can’t tell what’s going on from watching tv. If you can, you’re better than me.
Killerwhale said | November 18th 2009 @ 5:29am | Report comment
You might want to read the article on Rugby Heaven about those penalties.
Killerwhale said | November 18th 2009 @ 5:18am | Report comment
You might want to read the apology from Paddy O’Brien where he states that Dickinson got it “completely wrong”. Which contributed to the dire match. Looks like mallet and yourself are suffering from gibberish.
Lindommer said | November 18th 2009 @ 10:46pm | Report comment
I suspect the “statement” from Paddy O’Brien is a wind-up from a New Zealand blog site masquerading as serious journalism.
Jerry said | November 18th 2009 @ 5:26am | Report comment
The scrum that lined up against Italy was almost completely second choice players. Unless the likes of Romania and Portugal can pull off a huge upset, I don’t think that scrum will have any bearing on the AB’s chances in 2011.
Matt said | November 18th 2009 @ 5:29am | Report comment
Nice try, but your article is completely proven wrong by Paddy O’Brien, the IRB referees Boss, making an unprecedented and transparent apology for the substandard refereeing by Dickinson. This is mainly centred on the scrum where a review of the match footage has lead O’Brien to warn Dickinson to up his game and to open state that Castrogiavanni and Perugini got away with “boring in” and that Dickinson’s repeated penalising of the New Zealanders was “completely wrong”.
Quote from Paddy O’Brien: “The best example I can use is in the last 10 minutes there were eight scrums of which seven the tighthead for Italy is purely illegal,” . “Up here they’re crying that it should have been a penalty try. It should have been a penalty first scrum to the All Blacks.”
So, no the All Blacks scrum has not been overtaken by the Wallabies and no it should not have been a penalty try to the AB’s. And no, Tialata should not have been sent of and no Dickinson in not very good at ‘refereeing’ at scrum because he clearly guessed and he got it wrong 90% of the time in Milan.
And after such a travesty of a performance from the referee what did the All Blacks do, they asked for more “clarity” next time while fielding all kinds of criticism suggesting that their scrum was weak. Pity they couldn’t come out and say ‘the ref was completely wrong’ without people calling it sour grapes.
The Aussie scrum has one decent component in Benn Robinson, but after that it’s pretty sub par (but improving). Whereas this weekend the AB’s will roll out the big boys (Woodcock, Hore, Franks) for the English. When the inevitable return of Hayman occurs there’ll be some genuine class props missing out on WC selection.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/3073661/All-Blacks-get-Paddy-O-Brien-refereeing-apology
Jonathan said | November 18th 2009 @ 3:04pm | Report comment
“Pity they couldn’t come out and say ‘the ref was completely wrong’ without people calling it sour grapes.” This is the only sentence in your reply where I have to say you’re wrong. Even though they didn’t say that, MANY pundits have “analyzed” the footage with their “expert” opinions and deemed the All Blacks scrum as a lost cause and the coaches were using it as an excuse to cover their “inadequacies”. Its sad when you voice your frustrations and still get SO many people interpreting it as an excuse which is totally unacceptable. I’m just glad Paddy O’Brien came clean with an apology and helped to enlighten the so called “experts” in this matter. I’m sure the same pundits to try to save their reputation would call this a farce as well. I just want to see how many have the balls to stand up and apologize for their mistake!
katzilla said | November 18th 2009 @ 6:08am | Report comment
Our front row at the WC will likely be Hayman, Hore, Woodcock – Not Tialata, Flynn, Crockett
The engine power of Boric and Donelly is not quite the same as Thorn, Jack or Williams.
We’ll be fine. Us not winning the next WC will have nothing to do with the Scrum.
Darwin hammer said | November 18th 2009 @ 8:40am | Report comment
Time to delete this article from the website methinks – as it’s now been proven to not be based on fact courtesy of Paddy O’Brien ….
Ziontrain said | November 18th 2009 @ 9:50am | Report comment
Pretty ignorant article buddy
ExpatSin said | November 18th 2009 @ 9:50am | Report comment
Mr Rugbythinker. Time to change your name to Mr Rugby-non-thinker I think. You obviously where not watching the same game we where.
Dean Pantio said | November 18th 2009 @ 9:53am | Report comment
“What is it with Graham Henry and Steve Hansen? Are they really that paranoid that after an indifferent performance in Milan, they can’t recognise they were out-scrummaged by Italy, and that they were lucky not to have conceded a penalty try?”
Probably because, unlike you and the ref, they know what they’re talking about.
Matt said | November 18th 2009 @ 9:55am | Report comment
In RugbyThinkers defense, before Paddy O’Brien made the public apology the opinions he expressed in his articles mimiced a lot of what was being said in the media. Not to mention the man who hold the joint record for successive winning streak of test matches (Nick Mallet) saying that he thought it should have been a penalty try.
What does that say about a) His knowledge or scrummaging or b) His honesty?
If O’Brien hadn’t been so transparent then we’d all be wondering what exactly had been going on in those scrums.
ohtani's jacket said | November 18th 2009 @ 10:54am | Report comment
Ouch.
You really should’ve looked at the team list before writing this article, not to mention what constitutes a penalty try. A penalty try would’ve been like the Carter suspension — complete bollocks according to the laws of the game.
Nevertheless, you have a point about the All Black scrum. It hasn’t been the same since Hayman left and it’s gotten worse without Greg Somerville around, but it’s not simply a case of the tighthead. The All Blacks have a lot of young or inexperienced locks who don’t provide the same push as Williams and Thorn. This was a problem in the Tri-Nations last year whenever Boric came on. It’s something that Henry and Cron will have to work on.
Matt said | November 18th 2009 @ 11:04am | Report comment
The other factor though is that, even with the 2nd (3rd??) string front row of Crockett, Flynn and Tialata not once did the scrum collapse or get reset on the AB’s feed. So is the scrum really that weak at all? What more do you want from a front row these days, tightheads are a word of the past (or a mistake by the feeding sides hooker).
Campbell Watts said | November 18th 2009 @ 1:33pm | Report comment
No resets – That’s cause they weren’t playing against Aussie!!!
Shockers for folding like an accordian if they don’t get their hit just right!
mitzter said | November 18th 2009 @ 11:18am | Report comment
If o’brien was this transparent on all the decisions in a rugby game than i wouldn’t have a problem with his stating that the referee was in the wrong in this case. But he isn’t and coming out like this defending his home country stinks.
Everyone who has come out saying ‘well if paddy says dicko was in the wrong then he must be in the wrong’ is overlooking this very important point.
Jerry said | November 18th 2009 @ 12:27pm | Report comment
Yeah, that’s a good point. Paddy is known for showing bias against NZ when discussing ref’s performances. Like when he defended his home country after the 2007 1/4 final.
Oh, wait – that’s right, he actually said he thought Barnes did well and told NZ rugby fans to ‘grow up’.
JamesB said | November 18th 2009 @ 11:18am | Report comment
Given what Paddy O’Brien said today, everything in this article is incorrect except the point about Hayman, but he’ll be back for 2011 anyway.
Mr Denmore said | November 18th 2009 @ 11:27am | Report comment
Aside from the fact that Dickenson’s rulings have now been very publicly declared as wrong by the head of the IRB’s referees panel, we should also question the northern hemisphere teams’ propensity for using scrums as a spoiling tactic. I’m sure all those fatties enjoy watching all those resets, but for 99.99% of the viewing public it is like watching paint dry.
Before anyone goes all Stephen Jones on me and says that I’m promoting “basketball Super 14″ rugby, the All Blacks until Carl Hayman’s departure north for the filthy lucre had the best scrum in the world, yet still managed to play attractive running rugby. Even now, with their best frontline of Tialata, Hore and Woodock they are as competitive as any nation.
The All Blacks have regained their number 1 IRB world ranking, they are still the biggest drawcard in the sport and once some of their frontline troops return to the fold (Hayman from the northern hemisphere and Ali Williams and Keven Mealeamu from injury), they will be a scary proposition.
Whether that will be enough to win a world cup, who knows? I’ve learnt over the years from many bitter disappointments that anything can happen in a four-yearly knock-out.
Chris said | November 18th 2009 @ 12:08pm | Report comment
Even with “that” scrum the All Blacks are – as of yesterday morning – the best team on earth. I guess that is something.
katzilla said | November 18th 2009 @ 2:28pm | Report comment
Not the best team, merely the Number 1 ranked team via the IRBs ranking system.
I think everyone knows that SA are currently the worlds best.
Then again they lost to France so maybe France are the best, then hang on France lost to England in the 6N.
ENGLAND ARE THE BEST TEAM IN THE WORLD OMG! The ABs will have their work cut out for them this weekend.
Stash said | November 18th 2009 @ 3:02pm | Report comment
Ummm… I think everyone knows that the All Blacks are ranked Number 1 team in the world.
If South Africa were indeed the best in the world then they would hold there ranking?
(Though I did see a few SA fans suggest that the Boks drop games when its not in their interest such as the Lions last match, the tri-nations pounding by Australia, etc).
Still, one would think that world ranking would be enough motivation to get out of bed (they seemed pretty happy to get the ranking, now strangely, its all of a sudden not that important). That PDV and his funny old bunch of merry men…
Very strange for Paddy to publicly belittle his own ref?!! He must have been highly piss## with Dickinson’s performance (he’s pretty mute about Barnes’ reffing).
True Tah said | November 18th 2009 @ 3:20pm | Report comment
Dont know how you can come to that arrangement with the Boks beating the All Blacks pretty convincingly in Hamilton, and losing all three games to South Africa.
Stash said | November 18th 2009 @ 4:27pm | Report comment
The Boks had a great 2009 season against the ABs – 2008 it was a 2 pointer and NZ 2 -1, 2007 NZ 2-0, 2006 NZ 2-1 (a 1 pointer for SA). The ABs beat SA more often than not.
The IRB rankings are based on collective, ongoing performance – not seasonal.
If the ABs beat England and France – then they fully deserve their No1 spot
Ora said | November 23rd 2009 @ 1:28pm | Report comment
On that note do you believe Australia deserve their No 3 ranking?
I think they have shown on this tour that they are not even in the top 5!
Ai Rui Sheng said | November 18th 2009 @ 3:13pm | Report comment
Well the worm has turned. Now that we are playing the Stefan Jewns rules, we can plainly see that he blew it. He is now asking for the return of the slipper and others want the return of the mark..
Rugby has a history of rule changes whenever the All Blacks are dominant. We can go all the way back to the 2-3-2 scrum and see that the racist Gerrymander, aka IRB, fears the loss of Bleetingish and Oilyish face. Time for the formation of the FIRB and a truly representational Federation of International Rugby Boards. One country one vote!
Big Steve said | November 18th 2009 @ 4:01pm | Report comment
Why is Paddy O’Briens descision on this Gospel. I thought people on this site were able to make their own opinions.
He is a referee or referees boss. They make mistakes. Alot. In every game. In his opinion Dickinson was wrong, but alot of other people who seem to know about Rugby disagree with him.
If it was so straight forward you think he could take all the refs aside for a minute and tell them how to referee the scrum, then we would never have this discussion again.
If you want this article taken off you should go back and take off every one where Paddy Obrien disagrees with a point in it. Rugby thinker disagrees with Paddy OBrien, thats why it says “Sports Opinion”!
Jonathan said | November 18th 2009 @ 5:43pm | Report comment
It isn’t Gospel, but it has strong weight in it in my opinion. People SHOULD have their own opinions, you have yours, I have mine. I don’t want this article taken off, but your argument is flawed till the point where there is no argument whatsoever. You value opinions, and so it is to those that want this article taken off as well. What is your point exactly? You want others to respect others opinions while you yourself cannot.
Yes, he is the IRB’s referee’s boss. Yes I agree, they usually tend to make mistakes, but USUALLY on the field – where you have to make split second decisions and not having the benefit of pause and playback. Which obviously Paddy O’Brien had the benefit of doing. Alot of people who SEEM to know about rugby, many people think that they do (especially on scrummaging but sadly its not that easy to interpret). You would think that a man trained in the IRB laws and regulations, with around 72 hours to review a DVD of the replay, would be able to see what was going on. His move, the apology and reprimanding Dickinson, would have to be a pretty big gamble to his reputation and position as a boss if he was wrong wouldn’t you think.
“If it was so straight forward you think he could take all the refs aside for a minute and tell them how to referee the scrum, then we would never have this discussion again.” This again SEEMS moot to me, if it isn’t straightforward, how can you still argue with the point: “but alot of other people who seem to know about Rugby disagree with him”. Like I said, decisions made on the field and those made with the aid of playback and time are 2 totally different matters. I can calculate 1297 to the power of 3 with the help of a calculator or manually given the time I need accurately, but under the constraints of time and need for an immediate answer, I would probable give you an inaccurate answer.
I totally agree with Gosling on his point where many people are “confounded” how Dickinson didn’t award a penalty try after awarding so many penalties in favor of the Italians. What I can’t understand though, is why they never thought about it that he was unsure of his decisions and although repeatedly penalized the All Blacks, it SEEMS pretty clear to me that he was still sure that the Italians did not deserve the penalty try.
These are my opinions, and I agree with you that everyone has a right to disagree!
deerhunter said | November 18th 2009 @ 5:26pm | Report comment
Because everyone else DISagrees with rugby thinker, and what paddy o’b says proves their point, and despite your attempted assertion that ‘a lot of other people who seem to know about rugby’ might have said otherwise, they almost ALL have vested interests in putting down NZ rugby at the drop of a hat, be it because they are lazy gutter press, or historically well flogged opposition supporters. Nonetheless, it has now been proven beyond ALL doubters (or blinkered deny-ers) that what happened with the scrums v Italy was due to poor quality refereeing and NOT the All Black front row. Why is it Proven? Because the statement came DIRECT from the IRB (referees boss) and NOT some gutter hack – if you prefer to take their word as the contradictory gospel, well, go ahead, but I find it really pretty pitiful.
AndyS said | November 18th 2009 @ 6:23pm | Report comment
As IRB referee manager (and therefore the man ultimately responsible for all refereeing of the laws), I would have said O’Brien’s interpretation is definitive.
Mind you, I suspect he may come to regret the phrase “If the referee is not accurate we’ve got to put our hand up”. I am sure there will be a number of coaches keen to take advantage of this new transparency, especially if a refereeing decision actually affects the result of a match. It didn’t in this case, so if he is prepared to publically censure a match referee over what was ultimately a meaningless passage of play I would expect he will need to be at least as forthright once a match outcome is affected.
Spiro Zavos said | November 18th 2009 @ 8:23pm | Report comment
The key statistic in the scrum fiasco during the Italy-New Zealand Test is that on All Blacks feeds the scrum collapsed one time and on Italian feeds it collapsed 11 times. What was happening was that on the Italian feeds the props bored in and the halfback held the ball until the New Zealand scrum was disintegrated or the Italian scrum collapsed. Why Stu Dickinson, an excellent referee in my opinion, didn’t force Italy to feed the scrum immediately is beyond my understanding. It was all so obvious.
With those last scrums it was equally obvious that it was the All Blacks scrum that was on top. Yet Dickinson kept on giving the ball back to Italy even when they were shoved off the ball.
I think the referee got it into his head early on that Italy had the superior scrum and that was how he was going to decide what was happening. He twice warned the New Zealand half back to put the ball in straight, and then allowed the Italian halfback to do a a rugby league feed.
I think that Paddy O’Brien’s intervention was designed to ensure that the referee for England-NZ, Jonathan Kaplan. does not have a pre-determined idea that the New Zealand scrum is weak. It is not.
Sylvester said | November 18th 2009 @ 8:57pm | Report comment
I have some sympathy for Dickinson actually. Watching the game, I too thought the AB scrum was being destroyed. However, I was very surprised when I saw the aerial shots showing how bad the boring in was from the Italians.
Was it as obvious to the referee at ground level I wonder? It wasn’t to me on the TV footage from the same angle. Or being closer to the action should he have more of a clue?
aix said | November 18th 2009 @ 11:25pm | Report comment
Very NZ centric for Paddy O’Brien to worry about poor little Wyatt Crockett being monstered by that bad long-haired Argentinian Castro … and Graham Henry concerned that the spectators didn’t see a good match of rugby because the IIalians didn’t throw the ball about.
Of couse, they would have loved to seen have seen the All Blacls beat Italy by 70 points as in 1987 but since NZ had picked 15 no hopers it would never have happened. Maybe the 80,000 Italian spectators actually were more interested in seeing Italy beat NZ, which they nearly did.
Gosh NZ, you lost to France in NZ with your best side, almost lost to Italy in NZ with your best side, and were very lucky to win this test against Italy. If any of you believe that NZ had the dominant scrum against Italy in Milan you must believe in Santa Claus – it was a massacre. You will certainly lose the next World Cup in NZ if you go into it with this attitude – Woodcock, Hore, and Hayman not withstanding – and I expect France to give you a premonition in Marseilles next weekend.
ohtani's jacket said | November 19th 2009 @ 2:11am | Report comment
Italy didn’t come anyway close to beating us. They weren’t even trying. It was a BS performance from the Italians and an even worse performance from the All Black second and third stringers. One of the worst Test matches I’ve seen in my entire life. Still, the fact that NZ is number one again tells you a whole bunch about how good the rest of the world are.
Jerry said | November 19th 2009 @ 8:09am | Report comment
“almost lost to Italy in NZ with your best side?”
There are 3 statements of fact in that sentence, 2 of which are wrong. Italy briefly got within 7 points in the second half for about 2 minutes and in the end lost by 21. And about half that AB side was second string. But the match was in NZ so you got that bit right.
Jonathan said | November 19th 2009 @ 8:50am | Report comment
“Gosh NZ, you lost to France in NZ with your best side, almost lost to Italy in NZ with your best side, and were very lucky to win this test against Italy.” From this statement, I know you don’t have a clue of what you’re talking about! Against France, McCaw, Dan Carter, Ali Williams, Richard Kahui, Conrad Smith and Sivivatu were out injured, against Italy, similar to the above but add on Andrew Hore and even Stephen Donald to the list. How does that constitute to NZ’s best side, do you even know who plays for the All Blacks? Almost lost to Italy in NZ? The Italians didn’t even come close to scoring a try there. Very lucky to win? Did you even watch the matches? Just for your info, NZ wears a black jersey. Italy came nowhere near to winning in NZ and had limited chances at the San Siro. Their only glimpse of hope were a Sergio Parisse break and a penalty try that obviously even the referee didn’t deem fit to give.
“and Graham Henry concerned that the spectators didn’t see a good match of rugby because the Italians didn’t throw the ball about.” Of course he was, any rugby loving person would. With a game like that I don’t see ANY Italians are going to be interested in supporting a sport that seems dull boring. Remember in Italy, football is king. “Maybe the 80,000 Italian spectators actually were more interested in seeing Italy beat NZ,” If I had paid money to watch the match, I would be too with the way the game was being played, at least there is something to cheer about. For your information, I’ve ONLY supported the All Black’s since I started playing and watching rugby at 12.
“If any of you believe that NZ had the dominant scrum against Italy in Milan you must believe in Santa Claus – it was a massacre.” I don’t know about you but to me everyone else seems to think that NZ doesn’t have the dominant scrum, just a scrum that isn’t as weak as what the Northern Hemisphere folks are building it to be. I hate to be mean but I seriously wouldn’t be surprised if you didn’t know what half the rules of rugby were or how the game is played. NZ certainly has to improve ALOT to win the next WC, but other than that, everything else you said seems like bollocks to me (in my honest opinion).
Ora said | November 23rd 2009 @ 1:30pm | Report comment
Aix,
New Zealand did not lose to France with their best side, only a complete numbskull would even suggest that!
johno said | November 22nd 2009 @ 5:29pm | Report comment
Gentlemen, I think you are all missing the point. Paddy’s actions are the problem. Dickenson allowed Castrogiovanni the same leeway in the match between Leicester and the Springboks. There was no appology, or any other action. The Springboks have been complaining and asking for clarity on the way Wayne Barnes interprets scrums, wrote two reports, requested audiences, etc. There has been no feedback, intervention, personal meeting at hotels, or any other action taken by Paddy or the IRB. FAct is irrespective of what Paddy’s done, he’s wrong, since he’s favoring one team above another, again!