By jono52795 -
November 20th 2009 @ 1:17am
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AFL’s lack of international competition hurting the game
The months of October and November are a sobering reminder to the AFL just how much they trail in global stature to sports like rugby union, league and football.
The question has no easy answer, and without a genuine International professional level for our elite level players, perhaps now is the time to get serious on the representative front.
Australia’s four major sports are well supported by fans. Yet one of the four finds themselves with nothing to do from October onwards.
Amazingly, with such free time on their hands, the AFL have not even come close to organising exhibition games in genuine markets such as PNG, New Zealand, South Africa.
This lack of an International cohesion is worrying.
The AFL have introduced new initiatives that help the recruitment of International players, but have so far resisted the urge to give our elite players something to represent.
The success of the Rugby League Four Nations this year will interest a few at AFL HQ, and if similar cracking contests can be played out in Australia and New Zealand in 2010, then footy fans might begin to realise we are missing out on something.
The closest thing the AFL has to elite level International representation is the International Rules Series against Ireland.
Perhaps the worst thing to come from that series is that each and every year we have a series, the rules are tweaked and changed; so much so that it is now just Gaelic football with the addition of mild tackling rules.
Fairer rules that represent Gaelic and Australian football could be found, but the idea that International Rules is the primary opportunity for international footy is just absurd.
Steps need to be taken to introduce the game into countries of HUGE potential (Papua New Guinea, Pacific, perhaps New Zealand) and it is then and only then that an All Australian team might have a contest against another group of Australian footballers.
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BigAl said | November 20th 2009 @ 2:21am | Report comment
No – now is the time for the players to take a well deserved rest.
PJ said | November 20th 2009 @ 2:47am | Report comment
afl will never be international, it is a confusing and comedic spectacle for a lot of aussies not to mention people from overseas. Let it rest and accept your limitations. The success of the 4 nations footy was because each of the nations involved has a history and passion for it. We could throw in a couple more if we wanted to but that is what the world cup is for.
Billo said | November 20th 2009 @ 4:22am | Report comment
Having a longer off-season in now way hurts the game.
The NFL has traditionally played a regular season of just 16 games, for example.
The idea is that you keep people gagging for more of their favourite sport, and favourite teams, and the fans never get bored of it.
We tend to go the other way, as we have seen, unfortunately, with rugby. Too many Wallabies games develops an indifference among the people who should be fighting for tickets.
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 7:42am | Report comment
correct -
and note even the Socceroos – - – who for a little while there were commanding 60-80,000 at the MCG…….struggled to attract 20,000 to Docklands in a (competition wise) LIVE (qualifier) match against Oman.
The Wallabies are practically invisible in Victoria these days.
albe said | November 20th 2009 @ 7:57am | Report comment
different opposition and tournament… the MCG will be full for Australia’s final game before heading off to the Football world cup finals in South Afriica…
Redb said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:04am | Report comment
of course it will, the point is that an international still needs some huztpah.
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:08am | Report comment
yep -
the Socceroos stand alone – isn’t sell out worthy in Melbourne town…..even when there’s nothing else on.
But – the Socceroos in a friendly against Greece!!!!!
or a World Cup final qualifier
so, context IS important. or opposition IS important.
Hypothetically – If the Socceroos played a home and away season with matches in Melbourne every second week…..the novelty wears off pretty soon.
Simmo said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:36am | Report comment
The Socceroos got 84,000 for a midweek WCQ against Japan during AFL season.
But just 4 months later *after* the AFL season has finished a mere 20,000 people turned up to watch the same Socceroos team play Oman.
That’s a fall of OVER 75% !!
This is most alarming. Frank Lowy should resign.
Freud of Football said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:53am | Report comment
Yes he should Simmo. Immediately.
And who do you propose takes over from Lowy? And how do you explain his departure? A huge decline in crowd numbers between two international matches, one against Japan was a WCQ (a powerhouse in the Asian Fed) and the other against Oman as an ACQ (I believe?) but of course, both matches should have attracted 80,000+ and as they didn’t, Lowy should go.
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 2:16pm | Report comment
Clive Palmer would be the first in line relative to bank balance – wouldn’t he?? that seems to be the only criteria.
cam said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:20am | Report comment
Wrong. When Wallabies played All Blacks in 2007 at MCG they got 80K. Next year there’s going to be a Bledisloe cup match at Telstra dome and I would be very surprised if it’s not sold out.
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 12:57pm | Report comment
one swallow every third summer doth not a regular season maketh.
you actually reinforce my point.
Sam said | November 20th 2009 @ 3:03pm | Report comment
The fact that a minor sport in Melbourne can attract 80K fans reinforces that your point was wrong – especially considering one could watch the match live on Foxtel (same with Socceroos). There was no broadcast embargo to inflate crowd numbers.
captain nemo said | November 20th 2009 @ 11:43am | Report comment
Micheal C, I hate to rain on your parade mate, but there is a world outside of Victoria. Fair dinkum mate.It does exist. The wallabies play a sport that is global and requires them to play nations with an opposite weather season to Victoria. You see MC, on planet Earth, the Northern hemisphere has a seasonal weather pattern opposite to Victoria… Bizare but true mate. I know the world of rugby will be dissapointed that the Wallabies are nearly invisible in Victoria but they are not invisible at Twikenham, Croke park etc etc. How pathetic are those Northen hemisphere earthlings to watch the invisible wallabies outside of Victorian football season at a capacity Croke park. mate in all honesty, I couldn’t care less if the Wallabies are invisible in Victoria. They are doing something the the Victorian footballers would love to do, play an honest game at Croke Park of their chosen sport. Now, reply with you 90, 000 spectators and more facts and figures etc, but mate, none else cares!!!!! You are so obsessed with this bloody MCG getting capacity crowds to AFL…. it is meaningless to the rest of the planet mate.
Redb said | November 20th 2009 @ 12:03pm | Report comment
Whatever your smoking halve it, your seeing things that havent been said.
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 12:15pm | Report comment
captain nemo -
what brought that on??
all I said was “The Wallabies are practically invisible in Victoria these days.” You claim you couldn’t care – and yet you’ve gone on a rant-page because of that comment.
Tell me, if the Wallabies barely play a game a year, and aren’t on FTA TV earlier than 11.55pm……….that, without any AFL bias – is “practically invisible”.
Northern Hemisphere – - don’t we know it, a winter sport up there plays their WC in summer and want’s to come to Australia in winter so the summer sport as it is here can kick our distinct winter codes off their fields so the NH seasons are synchronised,……
…..btw – do you celebrate Christmas in December, or as a fair dinkum mid-winter festival in June/July when it should be held in the SH??
Croke Park –
what’s an ‘honest’ game? Are you suggesting the Australia vs Ireland match there Nov, 5, 2006 before 82,127 wasn’t an ‘honest’ game??
Sad to say though, the Australian team is a little more representative of the states and territories of Australia than are the Wallabies. (that should give you something to tackle).
captain nemo said | November 20th 2009 @ 1:31pm | Report comment
MC, you love throwing around those crowd numbers. Honest game mate is a game that is not concocted to give some guys a taste of a test match. Is their an established “international rules” comp. MC, its not a real game, nobody plays it, AFL and Irish people never play the game so mate, its not an honest game. the fact that there was 82, 127 people there really inpresses you. Doesn’t make it an honest game. Only my opinion mate.
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 2:24pm | Report comment
CN -
ah – - honest games, – - – no concocted rules,
unlike Rugby 7s and T20 in their infancy of course, heck,
International Rules is a fluid set or rules within a broad framework….rather like a lot of rulesets.
It’s as honest as it can be. And legitimate.
Perhaps your preference is the Cox Plate as an ‘honest’ race vs the Melb Cup as a concocted handicap – - – to me, they’re both legitimate contests.
captain nemo said | November 21st 2009 @ 9:35am | Report comment
MC, rugby 7’s and T20 are derivatives of a sport!!! rugby 7’s uses rugby players on a rugby pitch, the rules are modified or dumbed down, same same with T20, its a cricket game for the uneducated mass markets. international rules mate is something else. Let me get this straight, an AFL player kicking a soccer ball at rugby posts with a goal keeper standing in front. It doesn’t resemble AFL at all. 7’s and T20 is still rugby and cricket. If I was to propose to you 20 years ago that australias best AFL players get involved in kicking a soccer ball at rugby posts you would of fallen over laughing. so no mate, not an honest game in my books.
Nam Turk said | November 20th 2009 @ 5:06am | Report comment
As long as the game is played on giant ovals with 36 players, your options will be limited.
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 7:45am | Report comment
so true -
but, conversely – WHILST that is the case, then, the game is all the more distinct, identifiable and unique.
Start eroding that (too soon), and the point of difference is eroded.
The AFL has only about 2-4 years of partially serious, underfunded effort in a foreign market (South Africa). Let’s just look at the situation in 10 years time and see what’s required then.
Because, internationally – the game DOES adapt to 9s or 12s formats on soccer/rugby pitches, or here and there are side by side fields, cricket ovals or even polo fields!!!
tifosi said | November 20th 2009 @ 5:09am | Report comment
Actually i think the Adelaide crows started pre-season training yesterday. So the players get 6 weeks off. No need to run them into the ground by playing all year round.
Gatto Nero said | November 20th 2009 @ 5:36am | Report comment
There’s something to be said for having an off-season. Why push the players to breaking point, when you can allow them to rest and ensure a greater spectacle the following season?
Sports that push their players to play more and more often will eventually end up like the NHL or NBA, where games are played every night or, at most, with a four day break for players. The result? The NHL superstars play 15-20 minutes of a 60+ minute game, in order to rest for coming matches. I would hate to see Gary Ablett benched for over two-thirds of a match because his off-season didn’t allow for proper rest and recovery.
Nam Turk said | November 20th 2009 @ 10:35am | Report comment
NHL players do that because of the nature of hockey, not the grueling schedule. Try skating intensely for more than a few minutes at a time.
Freud of Football said | November 20th 2009 @ 5:52am | Report comment
Stop trying to make AFL what it isn’t. It is an Australian game played during the Australian winter, if it was going to be successfully expanded, this would have happened decades ago.
Fact of the matter is it is football that did this and AFL is far too physical to ever be played across the globe (same goes for rugby).
Further, AFL Players have to be ridiculously fit, it isn’t football where they play 2 games a week and 50 a season, a 30 match season will leave them out on their feet, tacking on some pointless internationals at the end isn’t going to please anyone except for Demetriou and his buddies.
I for one would much rather see a return to state of origin before I see Aus playing against SAF.
Redb said | November 20th 2009 @ 7:09am | Report comment
Agree Freud. A return of State of Origin is required, that would be great.
Lack of an International game is not hurting AFL footy.
On all the other stuff I’m comfortable where AFL sits in the landscape on the world stage. Whatever we do is interesting and there are some sparks igniting here and there.
If South Africa continues on its development course we could see a national side good enough in 10-15 years – Africans are made for our game. Emphasis on IF.
But I view all the international stuff as cream not the cake and certainly not hurting the game.
On the international front – rugby league easily gets out done by rugby union who in turn gets out done easily by soccer – that’s a race Aust footy will never win. Australia is a minnow on the world stage our influence is tiny compared to the former British Empire which spread its games around the world.
I also agree wholeheartily with Billo that the off season creates the desire for next season. I hate October it does take time to get use to not having football but the break sure does build the excitement for next season when crowds will flock once again in their droves.
I agree with the author that International Rules has been ruined by the dominance of Gaelic rules – 5-6 years ago it was great to watch. I’m not dead against Int Rules re-emerging but only if they can truly put the best Australian team on the park. Seeing Hird, Buckley and Mcleod in the same team was a treat.
Redb
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 7:48am | Report comment
well – at Under 16 level we’re about to see a ‘world team’ brought together – to compete at Div 2 national level.
That will be a big indicator and potential driver on the possibility that at very least – - within 10-15 years – that we might see a ‘World Team’ able to take on the ‘Australian’ side. Whether any single nation could provide a decent stand alone squad is highly doubtful in the ‘forecast period’.
(however, would we allow parentage eligibility??)
Freud of Football said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:56am | Report comment
I wouldn’t just because of the farce we see in football.
Eduardo turning out for Croatia. The brazilians turning out for Qatar or god knows who else. Steve Bruce who could hardly be any more english, well his son has decided to turn out for Ireland now.
AFL doesn’t need International games and I don’t think any country would necessarily want to play against Aus and just take AFL players, born in Australia but “eligible through their parents”. England didn’t want Brad Moran as he learnt the game in Aus, why should we assume all the other countries would be happy to run out a national team of Australian men with dual nationalities?
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 2:12pm | Report comment
I could understand perhaps if – it get’s to a certain point – that, let’s say a Fiji team would be min 16 AFL-Fiji products, and no more than 6 Aust-Fijians,
but, perhaps limit the ‘Aust-Fijians’ to fellows actually either born in Fiji?? Would that permit Naitanui, Rodan and Carlisle? Perhaps not?? BUt, against whom are they playing anyway? Much would depend on whether the International Cup stays just as it is, or, begins evolving perhaps a Div 1 into a partial ‘world cup’, with lower div’s still international cup eligibility??
However, no one is yet talking about a stand alone top flight international nation anyway – - for now. FIrst step is still the World 18 Under 16s but…..there’s a huge gap between talented/athletic 15/16 yr olds and top class senior professionals.
Anthony said | November 20th 2009 @ 7:34am | Report comment
I agree Redb. It’s appeal is as an Australian game, embedded in our history for 150 years & part of our local communities. It is played on a silly oval field with 36 players. I love my footy, & am glad for the slower pace at this time of the year….until Christmas is over, & then I start getting anxious!
4 Nations does not make League an international sport – nor is that appealing to anyone except ex-colonials! Rugby League & Union are not international sports. They are played by former British colonies, with a few odd strangers, like Romania, Italy & Argentina. Soccer is the only true international sport.
cam said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:23am | Report comment
Anthony I suggest you do some research. Rugby is played around the world and IRB has about 100 member countries. Rugby is huge in France is probably their 2nd biggest sport. It’s also big in Argentina, Japan. Even USA has about 60K players. The inclusion of Rugby 7s to Olympics just shows how the IOC view rugby as an international sport. Rugby is only gonig to get bigger.
Freud of Football said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:30am | Report comment
Well that’s great for rugby. I don’t think the AFL fans here particularly care about it to be honest, AFL fans have never begrudged either rugby code playing internationally and while it might be the second biggest sport in France and have 100 member nations, it pales in comparison – as do all other sports – with football on a global basis.
In the current climate there is only room for one truly global sport, maybe in 25 years when countries are more developed and populations are increased could other sports start getting a cut on the world scene.
Melbourne Dry said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:55am | Report comment
Rugby – France’s second biggest sport? Sorry if I choke on my cornflakes – haven’t you heard of a little thing called the Tour de France?
Seriously mate – you have no idea!
Chris said | November 20th 2009 @ 11:13am | Report comment
I think we are talking team sports here mate. Not a bunch of guys on roids in ultra tight lycra.
katzilla said | November 20th 2009 @ 3:38pm | Report comment
‘Rugby – France’s second biggest sport? Sorry if I choke on my cornflakes – haven’t you heard of a little thing called the Tour de France?’
More people own Bicycles in OZ then play AFL
Chris said | November 20th 2009 @ 4:31pm | Report comment
I’d wager that more people own bikes worldwide than play soccer. That said – just because I like riding my bike doesn’t mean I enjoy watching men in skintight lycra do it.
steve said | November 20th 2009 @ 10:53pm | Report comment
France an English colony? you better stay away from the French they might cut you for saying that.
keeper11 said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:02am | Report comment
did someone say ‘the success of the 4 nations’ ..umm??
is this guy a multi from the league mouthpiece the DT…
did even one match sellout?
did thousands of australians stay up to watch this gripping spectacle?
as for uninformed comments re socceroos crowd figures…
asian qualaifier against…Oman ?
hardly a blockbuster….
contrast..leagues Kangaroos are such ‘drawacrd’ in league homeland sydney..that the ARL has only scheduled a match versus PNG..
when the kangaroos last appearance attracted an embarrasing 15thousand in sydney for the world cup semi ..the writing is on the wall…
you didn’t know that?…
but ofcourse….news-limited didn’t run any ‘league crowds crisis’ stories..
and we didn’t see 20 forums on ‘whats wrong with international league’ ala the ‘A-league’ crowds .. …
Redb said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:07am | Report comment
This is about the AFL and its international footprint or lack thereof, not the rl 4 nations, save it for a league thread.
sheek said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:11am | Report comment
Rubbish!
5 years ago I might have agreed with you, but I’ve realised the success of a domestic sport has no bearing with its international reach. Rugby union folk try the same argument against rugby league, but it carries little weight.
What is relevant is the footprint a sport has on its domestic market – end of story. AFL has 16 national teams, soon to be 18. Most of these clubs are owned by their supporters, a unique situation. 10,000 people will turn up just to watch a training run!
The AFL doesn’t have to worry about anything else apart from its national domestic comp. No inter-state matches, no inter-provincial matches, no international matches. Just the AFL.
As long as Australian football maintains its domestic market-share, its lack of internationalisation is totally irrelevant. Besides, the game is uniquely Australian. Why have other countries taint it?!?!?
True Tah said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:20am | Report comment
Plus they dont have to deal with a global governing body in terms of rule changes or trying to schedule windows for internationals.
Australian football will become a lot bigger in both NSW and QLD within the next 20 years, they have the $$$, best sporting management in the country by a mile, are ambitious and engage with their supporters far better than either rugby or futbol.
keeper11 said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:30am | Report comment
“Why have other countries taint it?!?!? ”
AFL’s myopic view of the rest of the outside world huh..
Mmmmm… wouldn’t want those ..umm foreigners ..they’re all so ‘un -australian’ you see..
getting their grubby hands on our superior pure, true blue, good as gol’ game..
Anthony said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:41am | Report comment
Most of us are proud that Australia has its own code of football that is as popular as any other in the world. Not all Aussies have to grow up here or have played it as a kid to appreciate it. I would be interested to hear from soccer supporters as to why they want to denigrate it.
jim_bar said | November 20th 2009 @ 11:00am | Report comment
Anthony you mention “Australia has its own code of football that is as popular as any other in the world” do you have any facts to back this statement up?
Freud of Football said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:46am | Report comment
Oh but of course, AFL is the sport of biggots, of racist Southerner’s because Sydney and everything to the north of it are so diverse and forward thinking what with their Kings Cross and Gold Coasts? What a blatantly inflammatory comment.
As far as I know, Melbourne has the second largest population of Greeks outside of Greece. SA was the only state not settled as a colony of the English and was predominantly made up of Germans and there are a lot of Italians in both SA and Vic in particular, I’ve been told this is because they prefer the climate which is similar to the Mediterranean.
I think there have been Greek, Italian and German “Team of the Century”’s named as well haven’t there? I’m sure RedB will be able to help out here.
Many of the greats of the game eg. Barassi, Silvagni etc. have come from these “immigrant” based teams so I would hardly say that AFL has a problem accepting “un-australian” people, if anything they have embraced them.
Indeed, I believe the worst riots in Australia’s recent history which were racially motivated were held in Cronulla, Sydney – Rugby League heartland – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Cronulla_riots
Redb said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:51am | Report comment
Not getting into the Sydney v Melbourne thing you’ve started – other than Sydney sucks
But yes there have been heaps of migrant influences on AFL, big part of the past and the future.
Redb
True Tah said | November 20th 2009 @ 9:12am | Report comment
Freud of Football, if anything, the Cronulla area is futbol heartland.
Chris said | November 20th 2009 @ 9:38pm | Report comment
South Australia – proof Tasmanians can swim.
sheek said | November 20th 2009 @ 9:24am | Report comment
Exactly!
Besides, it’s just my viewpoint, & my first team sport is rugby union.
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 9:32am | Report comment
I would think Sheek is speaking more from the perspective of the style of game and it’s structures/cultures etc. It is the most uniquely Australian game BECAUSE it doesn’t have to pay heed to international bodies (other than WADA!!!), or seek approval or bow to the demands of international bodies.
If the game suddenly took of in, hypothetically speaking – in the US, and suddenly 500,000 Americans are playing it and suddenly the US pro league is trying to dictate to Australia and the game is ‘tainted’.
It’s the ‘be careful what you wish for’ line that has been stated a few times around Aust Footy going international.
Midfielder said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:39am | Report comment
Jono52795
If the AFL are in trouble … then I want some of that trouble…
Cricket has found or is finding that two many matches and the national thing becomes to much…
A solid fan base … arguably the best crowds in the world… massive media deal … heaps of influence at government & business levels…
Not to sure what your sport is but it has not hurt the AFL to date and I can’t see it doing any harm in the future.
jono52795 said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:04pm | Report comment
look, I understand the opposition to my article. I’m not interested in AFL being an international game; but there simply has to be at least one form of representation for our players (be that State of Origin, International Rules, or something different). The fact that RL has been willing to give the international game a go, signifies the switch in thinking for most sports on an international level.
I dont at all beleive the AFL is in trouble, in fact it is probably the most likley of the Australian codes to prosper in future years. But we are entering the 21st centry, and the AFL’s version of representation is embarrasing, the game should not be dominated by clubs and clubs only… not any more!
Gweeds said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:50am | Report comment
I really can’t fathom why the AFL want to be international in any way. Association football is my no.1 sport so I am primarily a soccer person (and keen follower of the A-League) but I can say that just because a sport is international doesn’t make it necessarily better. Look at McDonalds. That food franchise is everywhere in the world, but does that make the product better than the local hamburger joint down the street?
I think the AFL should concentrate its off season efforts in places where Australian Football is the main code but have no AFL representation such as Northern Territory (which I think they already do to some extent) and Tasmania.
Redb said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:58am | Report comment
The international aspect for me is more about widening the recruitment pool – which all codes need to do. As rugby and soccer build profiles in AFL dominated states it’s inevitable that talent will be split where once it was retained. That is why GC and WS are important as well.
I dont think any AFL fan is obsessed with the idea that we must play international tests. However, I really like the concept of the International Cup where other countries with local amatuer AFL comps send their countryman to play our game and we host the tournament.
As far as Sheek’s final comment I must disagree, I think Africans are naturals at our game much like our indigengous people in Australia.
Redb
Freud of Football said | November 20th 2009 @ 9:03am | Report comment
Why go international RedB? We have a HUGE country, sparsely populated and a negative birth rate.
If Aus would just improve it’s immigration then everyone would benefit – including sports – but with a population of 21.4 Mill and the growth states being Rugby orientated then in the long run, the AFL does need to come up with something.
I just don’t think SAF or PNG or NZ is the right something.
Redb said | November 20th 2009 @ 9:11am | Report comment
newsflash Freud, Australia’s immigration is booming and our birth rate is in the positive. Not sure of exact numbers but migration this year is over 250K, normally ave about 110-120k.
Our environment is in serious trouble with water dam levels and the agricultural food bowl under serious threat. I dont know if its that rosy.
captain nemo said | November 20th 2009 @ 1:57pm | Report comment
not to mention red, a public infrastucture appropriate for a population of about 17 million, welfare benefits alone are up $450 on this time last year. Australia is not a bottomless pit of money as some people may think it is. back to sport.
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 2:28pm | Report comment
and the best people can think of is to host a sporting tournament so as to divert public funds into more and more sporting infrastructure development whilst continuing to under fund public transport, hospitals, police etc etc.
…..how many new trains with decent air conditioning could Melbourne have got instead of a $300 million dollar ROOF (with a soccer pitch UNDER it)………gawd it irks me that the State Govt build that and it can’t be considered for the FIFA WC…….gawd what a ruddy waste!!!
Freud of Football said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:59am | Report comment
The AFL might want to go international, the fans don’t but the AFL just does what it wants. Most people aren’t happy with the rule changes over the last few years, when one looks at how different the rules are now compared with 15 years ago pretty much no-one is happy except the AFL as they feel they have an “improved product”.
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 9:12am | Report comment
Gweeds & FofF:
just remember – the AFL has never seriously tried to go international.
Even now – with the little South AFrica ‘experiment’, the total annual funding is only around $400,000. Chicken feed. Especially in comparison to the financial commitment to GWS18 and GC17 and supporting/growing the grass roots in QLD and NSW.
The international element – has not been AFL initiated. This has caught the AFL on the hop. ‘World domination’ has not been on the radar (for a long time if ever).
btw – 15 years ago Steve Silvagni blighted the game by holding and wrestling forwards and he got rewarded as full back of the century……that was BAD…the AFL has been cleaning this aspect up and true body contest skills are returning…..that’s GOOD.
keeper11 said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:55am | Report comment
true..the AFL comp is immensley succesful comp… .if not quite truly national..
but despite the stench of provincialism that still pervades here…australia is not the US..
they’re a superpower of 300mill…they beleive they’re the best anyway so don’t need or follow national teams to prove anything..
austrlia however is an isolated middle size country of 20mill…our national teams DO matter to Australians…
but what is stopping yr average open-minded AFL supporter also cheering on the Wallabies or socceroos on the international stage ?
Does that make them a football or rugby supporter …prob not?
does that mean they may even abandon ‘footy’ and switch codes?…don’t think so..
Freud of Football said | November 20th 2009 @ 9:01am | Report comment
Your “average AFL supporter” probably follows cricket, the Aussie cricket team is still Australia’s pride and joy in international sport.
Redb said | November 20th 2009 @ 9:02am | Report comment
“but what is stopping yr average open-minded AFL supporter also cheering on the Wallabies or socceroos on the international stage ?”
Nothing, many of us do just that.
Redb
Andrew Sutherland said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:56am | Report comment
The positive thing about AFL is there is just the one competition. The premiership is the focus for clubs, players and supporters and it’s all that matters. The competition isn’t distracted and compromised by representative discussion, injuries and burnout. Soccer, in particular, just has too much going on. Along with the premiership there are assorted cups, trophies, qualifiers and friendlies. Too many for any one of them to have real significance.
AndyRoo said | November 20th 2009 @ 9:03am | Report comment
I don’t understand why the AFL “needs” international competition.
It seems to be doing quite fine without it.
Paul J said | November 20th 2009 @ 9:07am | Report comment
I’m sure AFL fans would love to see an Australian team in green and gold take on a few nations in serious internationals but this will never happen.
The AFL does not need to be an international sport. It’s already the biggest code in Australia.
Surely it can not have everything?
keeper11 said | November 20th 2009 @ 9:09am | Report comment
The positive thing about AFL is there is just the one competition. The premiership is the focus for clubs, players and supporters and it’s all that matters. The competition isn’t distracted and compromised by representative discussion, injuries and burnout. Soccer, in particular, just has too much going on. Along with the premiership there are assorted cups, trophies, qualifiers and friendlies. Too many for any one of them to have real significance.
‘ One-dimensional ‘…
yeh..thats the word i was looking for…
Andrew Sutherland said | November 20th 2009 @ 9:28am | Report comment
Being overplayed doesn’t make something multidimensional.
Ziggy the God said | November 20th 2009 @ 9:15am | Report comment
This is the Elephant in the room that the AFL does not want anyone to see.
As the World becomes more and more Globalised, why would a talented kid in the future restrict themselves to playing a small provincial game where 99.7% of the World will never see his skills?
If the Kid is content with overseas trips to Geelong and Adelaide, good luck to them.
True Tah said | November 20th 2009 @ 9:20am | Report comment
Ziggy
the fact is said kid may enjoy playing said “small provincial game” with his mates. It offers him a valid career option within this country.
And globalisation goes both ways, who is to say that kids in other countries may want to give this game a go?
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 9:24am | Report comment
Ziggy -
globalisation works on many levels.
The globalisation of information has assisted locals across the world to establish and sustain their own AUst Footy clubs like never before.
Not everyone opts for the sport they play just because of the potential to make multi millions if they happen to be in the top 0.0001 percentile of all players globally.
There are a multitude of concerns and inspiration.
Thankfully. Otherwise the only sport in the world might be soccer or basketball.
btw – for every globalisation ‘action’, there tends to be a roughly opposite (and sometimes equal) ‘localisation reaction’.
sheek said | November 20th 2009 @ 9:31am | Report comment
Ziggy,
There’s no elephant in the room – Globalisation is way, way, way, way over-rated.
You can always go overseas for a holiday. You don’t need to play sport to go overseas.
I enjoy immensely watching American football (NFL) but that’s as far as my interest goes. Australia needs another footy code (NFL) like a hole in the head!
Local market is king!
Generally speaking, the footy codes in Australia are inverse in popularity to the rest of the world. So obviously, most Aussies don’t give a damn what the rest of the world considers relevant. And especially, neither do the Yanks!
AndyRoo said | November 20th 2009 @ 9:33am | Report comment
One game is on FTA 4 times a week and has average crowds of 40k and you don’t have to go overseas to earn a decent crust the other has the potential for multi millions if you’re better than 320m other players but you have to go overseas to earn it. Different kids will choose different options.
I also seriously doubt kids pull out their calculater when choosing what sport they play…. I never did.
Why doesn’t everyone just play Golf (shudders) then?
Plenty of kids chose Rugby when that game paid you ZERO!
Redb said | November 20th 2009 @ 9:40am | Report comment
All of these replies are spot on. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Roman said | January 19th 2010 @ 8:22pm | Report comment
Thats your favorit line stop clouding the issue speak for yourself!
Anthony said | November 20th 2009 @ 11:16am | Report comment
Baseball & basketball have been attracting Aussie youth to the US for years. Some have been successful & put Aussies in the news. However both sports still struggle here & attendances are v small. The USA is much more attractive to our youth than the UK, Turkey or China. Soccer/League players go there because that’s the game they play.
Roman said | January 19th 2010 @ 8:14pm | Report comment
Excuse me Australian girls football players and boys are getting college/uni scholarhips in the USA, football is getting more and more popular there – Aussie Rules is dominated in Victorian News papers and TV News and such success and any success in football is kept quiet. There are many Australians playing football all over the world and getting paid.
Even our local ABC radio Albury/Wodonga have a winter sports program with Joesph Thomsen and a sports hillbully from Broken Hill ABC radio that only give us AFL and they call it the Sport report!
Norm said | November 20th 2009 @ 9:26am | Report comment
“Elephant in the room”….oh please!
Norm said | November 20th 2009 @ 12:34pm | Report comment
umm…I didn’t say that!
Anthony said | November 20th 2009 @ 9:39am | Report comment
Growing up I could have played football, rugby, soccer, hockey or baseball – all within 10 mins walk. At high school I was told if I played rugby I could represent Australia & I went to an international game (Aus v Sth Africa). But I chose footy because I liked the various skills, because it was invented in Australia & it was part of our history!
AndyRoo said | November 20th 2009 @ 9:46am | Report comment
I choose Football (Soccer) because in my area (full of Maltese) that was the game. The local suburban team had 4 teams for every age group and even managed to spend a year in the NSW top flight.
Not for one second did anyone think about millions of dollars to be made or chances to go overseas….. we just wanted to score goals.
So I doubt being International is important for attracting talent, what other reason is their that AFL “needs” to be international.
Republican said | November 20th 2009 @ 11:00am | Report comment
I can’t believe we are still having this rubbish debate.
Last tiime I looked AFL’s popularity was continueing to grow while Union continues to battle for survival in Oz as well as struggling in NZ. League, which only just qualifies as international, is holding it’s own domestically. Soccer is strong at GR’s but so what, since the jury is still out on any elite potential in this country.
So much for the theory that having zip i/n status is hurting the code, to the contrary, it’s uni lateral appeal is it’s strength – ie NOT seeking to be cringingly international.
The last thing we need is another sudo tokenistic i/n fixture between NZ, crickey have we not reached saturtation point in Trans Tasman chest thumping events and as if the International Rules was not compromising enough. Can you imagine our game being bastardised by a Union stronghold such as NZ. I perish the thought.
Fare go, this topic has surpassed being laborious
Good day and good luck
captain nemo said | November 20th 2009 @ 12:02pm | Report comment
republican, am i on drugs mate or did you just say that rugby is struggling in NZ!!!!! mate, get a life
captain nemo said | November 20th 2009 @ 12:07pm | Report comment
republican quote “Last tiime I looked AFL’s popularity was continueing to grow while Union continues to battle for survival in Oz as well as struggling in NZ.” sorry Redb but I think thats what it says. The last time I was on here I received an email from Zac cautioning me that I was inciting arguements between the codes etc.. when rubbish like this is being broadcast, I realise why I only have a peek at this site every few weeks. seriously, some of you guys are brainwashed….
Redb said | November 20th 2009 @ 12:15pm | Report comment
Argue the facts that disprove the statements then.
You always come across with a strong anti Vic bias that clouds what would otherwise be lucid comments.
captain nemo said | November 20th 2009 @ 12:37pm | Report comment
Red, the comments by MC were that the wallabies are almost invisble in VIC. my point is so what!! when roar contributor and Wallaby David “Bambam” Pocock lines up for the national athem on Murrayfield, Twikenham, Croak park etc could he care less if he is invisible in VIC. Packed house watched by millions, I don’t think they feel invisible out their in the middle. Or the aussie expats that travel from whereever they are living standing in the cold watching their national team, getting ripped of with local accomodation etc, do they care if they are invicible in VIC, no way mate. The wallabies represent Australia, yet if they are invisible in VIC, then I suppose the state is not interested in them, so what mate. Am i anti VIC, nope, awesome city, very user friendly, great food etc etc however…..
Redb said | November 20th 2009 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
nemo.
I really dont think MC meant to have a go at the Wallabies but he is right to a point, that in recent times, there has been little publicity about the Wallabies. Not sure when the last bledisloe was held in Melbourne but it was a few years a go. The recent test drew a fairly small crowd at Etihad.
Most AFL fans know who the Wallabies are and like them, the Socceroos have gone past them though these days as the national team other than cricket if that makes sense.
Redb
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 2:30pm | Report comment
CN -
What Redb said,
I’ve still no idea why you went ranting on.
Take a chill pill,
and stick to the topic.
Anthony said | November 20th 2009 @ 11:07am | Report comment
jim_bar:
AFL average attendance exceeds 36,000 – making it the 3rd highest in the world after NFL & Bundesliga. I am not sure about club membership, but would have to be up there also.
Lazza said | November 20th 2009 @ 11:10am | Report comment
AFL fans in general do not support the Socceroos or the Wallabies. They see them as rivals and competitors and they openly admit that they don’t watch anything besides AFL. Just have a look at a Melbourne or Adelaide newspaper when the issue of World Cup stadiums come up. You’ll see 500 comments from bitter, fearful AFL fans telling us that they don’t care about the World Cup, don’t care about Soccer or any international sports in general and that we shouldn’t be playing any British or foreign sports.
It’s no surprise that the AFL dominated Crawford report just concluded that Australians aren’t that interested in international sporting success and we shouldn’t worry about the Olympics. That’s not the Australia I’ve always known, we’ve always cherished our international sporting heroes, taken great pride in our sporting success and am glad there’s been such a huge backlash against those absurd recommendations. Why would you put AFL people on a committee to examine sport in Australia anyway? They don’t have the knowledge, experience or interest in international sport, don’t know anything except AFL and are clearly biased.
I have this debate with AFL fans here in Adelaide all the time. I tell them that we could have the best of both worlds but they’re just not interested in being a great sporting nation. Having our own sport is fun but not if we have to sacrifice international sporting glory.
Redb said | November 20th 2009 @ 11:29am | Report comment
Leave your bias at the door. Youv’e gone off on an off topic rant.
if you want to speak for yourself that’s fine, dont support the Wallabies or Socceroos.
Lazza said | November 20th 2009 @ 11:46am | Report comment
You know I follow both sports Redb because I know so much about Aussie Rules and am a keen Crows supporter. I’ve grown up with Aussie Rules, played the game in my youth and am happy to follow both sports.
My problem has always been with the attitude of so many AFL fans, especially the older ones. If you don’t think that attitute is common amongst them then go onto a newspaper site and read the comments my friend.
Redb said | November 20th 2009 @ 11:59am | Report comment
When I do Lazza, I read a lot of stupid comments from one eyed world game fans too.
AndyRoo said | November 20th 2009 @ 12:03pm | Report comment
True Redb
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 11:33am | Report comment
Lazza – there’s a difference between wanting the FIFA WC and wanting it at ALL COSTS.
basically, the AFL position which is:
support it in principle, but need to see the detail.
Lazza said | November 20th 2009 @ 1:15pm | Report comment
I read RealFooty this morning where they said that Soccer was the ‘enemy’. Like I said, we could have the best of both worlds. The AFL doesn’t have to become international and Football doesn’t have to become the dominant code in Australia.
The attitude of so many AFL fans, journalists and administrators is what disappoints me so much. Keeper is right, go to a mainstream site and read the comments.
Redb said | November 20th 2009 @ 1:21pm | Report comment
Lazza,
And what if I ventured over to 442 or SBS the World Game. Would I find an embracing love of AFL footy? or a bunch of media conspiracy theorists and world game to conquer all rhetoric?
Lazza said | November 20th 2009 @ 1:31pm | Report comment
You won’t see 500 comments bashing the AFL. There may be an article or two defending the sport and replying to the “anti-football” brigade. If AFL journalists want to attack Football then they have every right to respond.
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 1:47pm | Report comment
the glasses through which you readeth such forums are heavily tainted in the hues of roses.
Anthony said | November 20th 2009 @ 11:34am | Report comment
The problem with people like Lazza is that they see AFL as the enemy, & then wonder why we footy supporters respond to their bias.
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 11:51am | Report comment
we can always flip this a little anyway,
the problem for domestic soccer in Australia is the almost total international dimension.
It constricts the local domestic league.
The problem is that they want to be part of the global world of their game – and in doing so, are suffering their imbalance via the FIFA WC big. Their destiny is not in their hands.
We often here about teams seeking to make the finals, the FFA presently is needing to rely on other teams losing to get through!!
The AFL lack of international competition means the AFL can play where and when they like. Where as the Domestic soccer situation, and even the running of the FIFA WC – against sees huge restrictions and limitations.
If the FIFA WC bid fails in Australia – it is not the fault of the AFL – but, 100% the fault of domestic soccer for being so limited and too internationally geared.
The Socceroos is indicative of the issue. They are infact homeless. They play and live the majority of their soccer lives outside of Australia – the team gathers variously depending upon FIFA windows or not – and play someone somewhere in somebody elses stadium. Even in Australia – the Socceroos don’t have a ‘home’.
Domestic soccer has failed itself for over 100 years in NOT building it’s own bastions. It must only be naive to believe that you can waltz down a street, pick the best house, knock on the door and compell the occupants to vacate just so you can house some overseas visitors……as Derryn Hinch would say “Shame, shame, shame”.
Does that work???
“A glass is half empty to the thirsty man, and half full to the sated man.”
“Half full or half empty; depends on whether you’re in over your head or only up to your knees.”
Lazza said | November 20th 2009 @ 1:23pm | Report comment
AFL has failed miserably for 150 years in becoming a national sport. Because it started so late it may never become a truly national game. It’s pretty naive to believe you’re going to convince all those Rugby and League fans to follow what they perceive to be a Victorian sport.
Who cares really though. Follow your favourite winter code but just don’t ignore international sports. I don’t really regard League as an international sport. It’s a niche sport in England and France, and a poor number 2 in NZ. Great sporting rivalries occur when BOTH countries are passionate about a sport.
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 1:46pm | Report comment
“AFL has failed miserably for 150 years in becoming a national sport.”
the only national sports were national prior to 1860…..i.e. cricket!!
If the AFL (Australian Football) has failed in 150 years,…….what then is to be said of Rugby and Soccer with the might of the British Empire and favourable migration behind them.
Who cares about Rugby U and L fans……the most insular people on earth if all these people who reckon a sport orignating in Victoria 150 years ago is reason enough to hate it……if that sums them up – then let the AFL focus on the new generation of slightly more worldly kids for whom Rugby League and Union doth not alone constitute a sport smorgasboard.
btw – who’s ignoring international sports? the main thing is, international is not the be all and end all,
and, for all we might pick on our own AFL because of the Tom Hawkins poster….we look to the great mighty world game as see the hand of ‘le frog’……and realise that ain’t nothing perfect…..so, just – play ball!!!
Lazza said | November 20th 2009 @ 2:01pm | Report comment
I agree and if all AFL fans were as reasonable as you then I wouldn’t have a problem. The problem is that they are not, especially the older ones.
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 2:36pm | Report comment
Lazza -
thanx, that almost read as a compliment……(I must have misread the tone, perhaps??)
but, seriously, the older ones in all the codes tend to be a tad stuck in their own patch of mud……no matter how worldly they think they are by virtue of primary choice of football code to watch.
Main thing on the local/international front – - – you can only ever play who is up against you on the day. Be it the neighbouring suburb or a team from Bolivia.
I used to be a bit more apathetic and anti AFL HQ until I realised just how cool it is that we have our own unique code that technically predates Rugby/Soccer, and that IS getting a following overseas, gradually – - – and DOES give us something a little different for the pretty exchange student to see when we open the door to our dorm room……figuratively speaking.
btw – the Vics are closing in,…1 for 241.
Lazza said | November 20th 2009 @ 3:40pm | Report comment
All our international stars are homeless. All our Footballers, Basketballers, Tennis Players, Golfers, Athletes, Motor Sports etc have to ply their trade overseas to compete at the highest level. Unlike some sports all our Footballers come home and represent the country when needed.
The toughest ask in AFL is winning interstate, right? Imagine having to play in England on Saturday then flying half way round the world to play for your country on Wednesday. That’s tough.
I was paying you a compliment earlier by the way.
keeper11 said | November 20th 2009 @ 12:12pm | Report comment
The what ?
Problem with people like Anthony is they’re not comfortable with any possible change or opening of australias insular sporting landscape and run to their friends at Herald sun/ Advertiser /3aw etc that tells ‘us’ what ‘we’ want to hear and who ‘those’ enemies are……sniff sniff
Lazza is right…the anti-football/ anti-’international ‘ / anti anything ‘foreign’ vitriol from the AFL types on those mainstream sites has to be beleived…
btw..cricket may be ‘your’ preffered alternate national sport….
but its also ‘our’ Socceroos and ‘our’ Wallabies last time i checked
Redb said | November 20th 2009 @ 12:17pm | Report comment
right. So tell us about the number of AFL games you attend and watch on TV.
I keep reading you say AFL fans are insular? do you take your own advice?
captain nemo said | November 20th 2009 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
who are you asking Red???
Redb said | November 20th 2009 @ 12:31pm | Report comment
keeper11.
anyone someones been let off the chain and the debate will head south quick.
see ya.
oikee said | November 20th 2009 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
You forgot our Kangaroos, keeper, if you live in 1 of 2 states, or happen to be a storm supporter, it was their players doing the damage over-seas.
Republican said | November 20th 2009 @ 12:18pm | Report comment
Cap – i – tan
Nope, thats what i have been reading from various sources over the past year or so.
Perhaps it’s all just a beat up fabrication of dubious intent however, this has been a regularly aired opinion subject in NZ media for some time now.
More recently it was put to Kiwis if they prefer Soccer to Union post the All Whites v Dubai game? One of those subjectively conducted polls perhaps, however this revealed quite significantly that Soccer appeared more popular at that moment.
There has certainly been a shift in Kiwi sporting conciousness over the past few years, which indicates a groundswell of anti Union sentiment across the ‘dutch’. I reckon this is true and will only intensify with a growing Australian diaspora in NZ today
Cheers
captain nemo said | November 20th 2009 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
Republican, I couldn’t disagree with you more except that the All whites are having their moment in the sun and good on em!!!
republican quote “There has certainly been a shift in Kiwi sporting conciousness over the past few years, which indicates a groundswell of anti Union sentiment across the ‘dutch’. I reckon this is true and will only intensify with a growing Australian diaspora in NZ today” anti union sentiment. Now maybe there is a kiwi who is anti rugby but mate, they are few and far between. defn of anti, ” a person who is opposed to a particular practice, party, policy, action, etc.”
Republican, I get to NZ about 6 or so times a year, I have not yet met a Kiwi who is “anti” or opposed to rugby… to claim that there is a groundswell of people opposed to rugby in NZ is bizzare. Some of your arguements about rugby in the ACT seem reasonable however you shoot yourself in the foot with this garbage.
Republican quote “More recently it was put to Kiwis if they prefer Soccer to Union post the All Whites v Dubai game? One of those subjectively conducted polls perhaps, however this revealed quite significantly that Soccer appeared more popular at that moment. ” Could you provide a link to this poll please??
republican quote ” this has been a regularly aired opinion subject in NZ media for some time now.” mate, could you please provide me with a few of the links in the NZ press about the growing anti rugby sentiment in NZ. Its time to put up or shut up because any of us on here who frequent the shaky isles over the last 20 years plus have a plenty of kiwi work mates know you are stretching it to put it nicely!!!!
katzilla said | November 20th 2009 @ 4:27pm | Report comment
I know what it is your talking about Republican but your misguided.
NZers in general are becoming anti-super rugby and recently have become dis-illusioned with the ABs and their poor play against various teams this year.
This doesn’t mean rugby is on the downer though. The ANZC enjoyed one of its most successful years ever, and if one of the either Southland or Hawkes bay had of made the finals it would have been a final for the archives.
Rugby is as strong as it ever will be, anyone who thinks this time in the sun for the All Whites will cause a turning of the tide is highly delusional (a few kiwi soccer media types ala Cockerill here)
Everyone in NZ is super stoked for the All Whites, including every rugby fan. Why? Because Soccer is seen as a Niche sport in NZ. Its a minor player, this recent run may see them gain a slightly bigger part of the pie and i’d be stoked with that too because i want to attend some All Whites matches against some big guns and if we do well in SA we might just get a couple of big boys to come out for a trip.
Even Sean Fitzpatrick (one of the greatest AB captains of all time) was barracking the All Whites home.
I knew quite a few mates that went to the game (used ot live in Wellington before i moved to oz) and out of the 12 or so i knew, only 1 i would say is a genuine Soccer fan. The rest are rugby heads.
But nothing is bigger then the Soccer world cup and as a nation we’re stoked to be going.
NZ will never be anything other then a rugby country – everything else is fighting for a piece of whats left.
oikee said | November 20th 2009 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
AFL is a aussie game, but to be biased against other codes is unhealthy. You are missing out on so much to just follow Melbourne sport. And the most support is in Melbourne, and expats. So yes agree, AFL will always be a local product, because the rest of the world has their sports, and it takes years to just build interest in other sport. What Melbourne has to be aware of, their is a whole new genaration of fans coming onto the market for other codes. The new play-ground(stadium) will hasten this genaration in earnice. Nobody can stop this, not Demetriou, not AFL supporters, no-one.
BigAl said | November 20th 2009 @ 1:28pm | Report comment
Stop that !!!!
Republican said | November 20th 2009 @ 12:32pm | Report comment
keeper11
Australia is far from an insular sporting nation mate. Do you need a list of the international events, codes and dicsiplines Oz competes in and in fact excels at? I think not.
Many who resent our national game and you appear to be one of those ( I will scour for your non deplume on the Soccer threads in keeping this site consistent and honest) do so because it is so fervently patronised domestically, to the detriment of the international codes on offer.
I think we should celebrate this wonderous irony in such a hum drum world of global sameness. This is hardly an insular expectation of it’s custodians, for what is a cultural institution which should be nurtured as such.
Republican said | November 20th 2009 @ 12:40pm | Report comment
Oikee
Guess what mate, there is also a whole new generation of new Australians embracing our game with gusto.
You also should cease perpetuating the myth and mischeif that our game is soley a Melbourne game, you know and I know, this is NOT so.
Cheers
Lazza said | November 20th 2009 @ 1:27pm | Report comment
The TV ratings would seem to indicate that it is primarily a Melbourne game. About 60-70% of the TV ratings and revenue come from one city – Melbourne.
The Swans and Lions get beaten by SBS in the TV ratings up there. If you wait 120 years before you finally decide to expand the game it’s going to be tough.
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 1:35pm | Report comment
Good growth potential then.
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 1:34pm | Report comment
careful,
Oikee will tell you about how RL has such worthy grass roots in both Perth and Melbourne that they are considered RL states……
but AFL is still ‘vicball’ and has no worthwhile presence in QLD and NSW.
something about geese, gooses, and ganders.
y’know the old saying “The grass is greener on the other side,….., after they’ve painted it”
oikee said | November 20th 2009 @ 3:24pm | Report comment
Has the game not grown out of Melbourne? has the expats not taken the game to other areas? So my point is valid, and to try and say that you are the only game to introduce their own rules, bullocks, rugby league in oz has introduced every rule into the game and the other countries follow suit, why keep lying to us on here that your the only code to make your own rules, (mybe not you, but someone said it) and finally their are a whole lot of people taking rugby league with Gusto, Hulk Hogan being one of them Gusto.s
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 3:30pm | Report comment
oikee -
what are you talking about??
Has the game not grown out of Melbourne? well…..yes. ANd soccer should be Londonball, and Rugby….is….well….Rugbyball……so, 50/50 on that one – - but, perhaps League should be termed ‘Sydball’ or ‘Huddersball’??
Yes, Hulk Hogan…..and when in Melbourne he’ll be donning a Collingwood jumper……..
Mushi said | November 20th 2009 @ 2:46pm | Report comment
Why do the fans of each Australian sport want theirs to be the McDonalds of the sports world? Why can’t we be happy being a high quality Australian based restaurant?
Why does it matter if the South Korean’s love rugby league or the argentines follow the brownlow? Does the game actually become any better? Does my enjoyment increase knowing that Kin Sum saw a ferocious try saving tackle in an origin or that Marcello Abellos just witnessed a running banana kick?
Has anyone thought that the genuine internationalisation of our game is actually a threat for Australian sports fans?
The more countries where the sport becomes a mainstream choice, then the less likely that the best competition will be on Australian soil.
So risks of failure = financial ruin, risks of success larger economies around the world become better professional destinations and we’re stuck with a third tier competition like the HAL.
Lazza said | November 20th 2009 @ 2:53pm | Report comment
Mushi, the HAL seems 3rd rate because we can compare it to other leagues. In actual fact, it has the deepest talent pool of any professional sport in Australia. Football has 1.2 million registered players from the WHOLE country and the rest of world to recruit from. The very best play in Europe but there’s a lot of talent out there if you can find it.
The AFL is the best Aussie Rules comp but I still go and see my old SANFL club on occasions.
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 3:01pm | Report comment
care to list your source of 1.2 million registerd players,
btw – what proportion are female?? recent ‘growth’ was largely made up of the increase in womens participation.
Too often it’s a case of comparing Apples and Oranges on one side with only Apples on the other and claiming it all to be Apples,
……when, quite clearly, if you present me an Apple Danish chock full of orange pulp I’ll be thinking you’ve short changed me my glass or orange juice.
Is it beer o’clock yet????
btw – for taking the kids – the best thing in Melb is the VFL, you can bump into any number of AFL Players in the crowd, and CAN get on the paddock for a kick with the kids.
AndyRoo said | November 20th 2009 @ 4:07pm | Report comment
Why don’t girls count?
The AFL counts girls as a full person not a half person. It’s the future of Hawthorn Footy Club.
We dont discount AFL cowd figures because some of them are girls
Robbos said | November 20th 2009 @ 4:14pm | Report comment
Very good question AndyRoo?
Mushi said | November 20th 2009 @ 3:34pm | Report comment
Thanks for confirming my point lazza because other countries have more financial resources they get the best players (including our own) and field a better competition.
Also deeper should not be used as a synonym for better. Quantity of players is hardly a great differentiator when others have access to higher quality.
You go watch the SANFL that’s great, I’m glad you enjoy it. The majority of sports watchers though don’t wander out to the local leagues.
Lazza said | November 20th 2009 @ 3:46pm | Report comment
It’s just common sense Mushi. The greater the number of participants the greater the quality even if you do lose some of the cream. Having a million potential recruits is better than just having a few thousand.
oikee said | November 20th 2009 @ 3:28pm | Report comment
Nice try Mushi, but the Hal is your problem. And nobody will ever watch a second rate comp. Not being nasty, but if the NRL or AFL grow big overseas, the destination of Choice for players will be in OZ, so our games have more revellence to Australia as sports. Your stuck with Man U, go buy a Jersey. Sorry , but thats a fact.
Mushi said | November 20th 2009 @ 3:49pm | Report comment
Oikee generally if you disagree with me I’m become far more confident with my conclusions.
Yes players will want to play in the best competition and if it truly starts to get international as you claim (personally I think it is utter rubbish and just anecdotal “evidence” with zero substance from your side) then the regions with the greatest financial resources to deploy will be best placed to consolidate the game.
If you can’t already see how that has happened in soccer or beginning to happen in cricket then you’re blind. Hell it even happened in rugby league with the NSWRL competition before it became a national game.
Also I don’t get the “hal is your problem” line.
I’m happy with the sports options I’ve got, I follow to various extents the NRL, AFL, NFL, NBA, NHL, cricket, EPL, rugby and tennis. If the HAL were up to EPL standard would I watch it more, hell yes, but I’d hardly say my life is missing something with out it.
I understand that you view someone who dares follow more than one sport as some kind of polygamist but I view single sports fans as people who don’t really like sport at all but rather crave the sense of belonging and tribalism. The way you continually penis measure with the AFL guys just reinforces that for me.
Lazza said | November 20th 2009 @ 3:53pm | Report comment
Mushi, that was my argument. AFL fans generally don’t follow other sports and don’t care if we succeed in international sports or not. That’s what I find offensive and whatever MC or Redb say, there are a lot of AFL fans like that.
Beast-A-Tron said | November 20th 2009 @ 6:43pm | Report comment
Are we to accept your anecdotal evidence as gospel? Shall I regale with a few experiences of my own, with regards to one-eyed soccer fans? I think not, because I know there are soccer fans out there who are on the whole balanced, whom can enjoy a diverse selection of sports.
oikee said | November 20th 2009 @ 4:54pm | Report comment
Mushi, see your point, really i do, but i have lived through all sports, and tried to folow most, and the game that came out on top was rugby kleague. Noiw, if i was a kid again, i would probably follow soccer, and love every minute of it, i know i would. But if i never decovered rugby league in my lifetime, i would not be the wise old man i am growing up to be. So, there you go, have nothing against all other sports, and now you know where i am coming from, cheers dude.
Yes a couple of speeling mistakes, me keyboard is giving me greff, not sure who to spell that. I blame the keyboard, the government are not around to take the hit.
Football said | November 20th 2009 @ 2:51pm | Report comment
International competition sets a barometer against which you can measure yourself, being the best means nothing when there is no one to compete against.
England thought they were the best footbal team in the world until they entered the world cup & got punished by the USA.
BigAl said | November 20th 2009 @ 2:55pm | Report comment
. . . but then again, it’s still limmited to this world !
Robbos said | November 20th 2009 @ 3:26pm | Report comment
You have to limit it to this world, because due to our lack of technology there is no concrete awareness of other worlds either outside or inside.
Mushi said | November 20th 2009 @ 3:51pm | Report comment
And people who play that sport
Republican said | November 20th 2009 @ 2:58pm | Report comment
Lazza
There is alot more to qualifying and quantifying the poularity of any given code besides TV ratings.
Tele is a banal and fickle medium that cannot accurately or comprehensively represent this on it’s own merits.
The fact is AFL is the most popular of all the Footy codes in the country and at the most recent count it was third in the participation stakes behind only Swimming and Soccer according to the Bureau of Stats.
I knew a Lazza of Polish extractuion who was a fine footy player in the ACTAFL and attended St Eddies in Canberra. No relation by any chance?
Cheers
Lazza said | November 20th 2009 @ 3:06pm | Report comment
No relation mate. TV ratings are the most important factor in determining popularity. That’s where most of the money comes from and 100m watching on TV is more important than 50K at the stadium.
The AFL gets bigger crowds than the EPL because it costs 2000 pounds to get a season ticket over there. Those clubs are so much richer because of the huge worldwide TV ratings they get.
oikee said | November 20th 2009 @ 3:37pm | Report comment
Thank you Lazza, and please could everyone understand this as fact, and is why the Hal will never be huge. The AFL and NRL have everything at their feet, because T/V is where the dollars are, having a 80 thousand crowd means squat if you cant show that game to a huge audience. Yes AFL survives on this with members, but the real money as you all know (MAN U) is invited by T/V dollars and advertising your product to any tom, dick or harry, thats interested. But your product must be good. People who watch the EPL wont buy a Asian product, the quality is inferior, and we are a asian product. And becoming more asia in Football. (soccer) but our top products are yet to hit the market. NRL, AFL.
Lazza said | November 20th 2009 @ 4:25pm | Report comment
You really believe there’s a market for NRL and AFL overseas? You couldn’t get one with all the News Ltd millions with SuperLeague.
In a few years with more money, a FTA TV contract and a new generation the HAL will be a high quality league. There are 90 pro Football leagues in the world. We don’t have to be the best just have to have a high quality product.
When are you going to hit the market? It’s been over a century already.
oikee said | November 20th 2009 @ 5:04pm | Report comment
Lazza, mate, the Hal will never hit any market, now lets get something straight, if i was a kid and was any good, i would be off to England or another league , we both know that, and as you mentioned, 100 leagues out their selling their product, (soccer) gives the Hal no chance really, i can buy poland league cheaper, so your producy is depreciating as we speak.
Now, as for selling the NRL , and i can vouch for this as i watch the game, every game every week, the game is perfect, and t/v networks are about to buy the product, on mass. If you think i am joking, then sit back and watch what happens to NRL over the next 10 years. I have seen the same thing happen with EPL, and i was their at the start, and rugby league is a better product, cry all you like, i watched both sports, and i think i am a better judge than you. My last post on here, i have a ban over my head. Cheers.
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 7:40pm | Report comment
There’s definitely some form of market for Australian Football overseas.
Rugby League is a tough one because – for many people, that market niche can just as easily be filled by Rugby, American or Canadian Football.
Australian Football – - as we have seen, find’s a place for people who like to bring all the skills onto the park in the one game.
Perhaps not the most skilful players….but, the most skill-full sport!!! Get it?? Skill…..full……full of skill…..ah farr-ghedda-boud’it.
Republican said | November 20th 2009 @ 3:06pm | Report comment
BigAl
Limited in quantity but not quality me thinks as with many things of value not at eveyones disposal in’ this world’
Republican said | November 20th 2009 @ 3:15pm | Report comment
Our game is not about being the best.
It is a tribal celebration of our culture. This is the cringe I speak of. For all this global gobbly gook we are subjected to by our citizens of the brave new global world, is it not ironic that those who push the ‘International’ envelope are those who struggle with their cultural identity.
Mushi
I love your work son. I could not have explained it more succinctly myself. More powre to you!
Republican said | November 20th 2009 @ 3:28pm | Report comment
Ah the filthy lucre
If that’s all it’s about then we might as well all give up now and just follow Golf or better still, we might aspire to a day that involves just sitting at home on our fat bondoons, watching the stock market unfold live on tele; Perhaps even have a punt on it while we’re at it.
Now that’s a rivetting prospect, don’t you reckon?
Have a good weekend Lazza
keeper11 said | November 20th 2009 @ 3:40pm | Report comment
the AFL types seem to confuse the notion of culture/tradition and sport..
but ‘footy’ is our home game blah blah and therefore part of our identity blah……
yeh true ..and ??
the whole essence of sport is competition…
sport is utterly meaningless without an arena where competitors strive to win , come first or be the best.
As somewone pointed out..england invented both football and rugby ( and league ) ..
they would have assumed they had the best competion and were the best in it.
Now they are not…
All domestic English football, rugby and league is judged to an extent by its international comparison.
The EPL might like to think it is the best football comp and best clubs in the world but there is that little thing called the
Champions League’ ..
and it might think it has the best players ..but again the response is ..
‘prove it in the World cup’
No such comparison or context exists for AFL ..
so to me seems stuck in a closed mindest of self-agrandizment…
Lazza said | November 20th 2009 @ 3:50pm | Report comment
You are spot on mate. Sport is about competition and testing yourself against the best. That’s why I have the highest respect for those Aussie sportsmen who take on the world and succeed.
Look at our Olympic athletes. Even though they’re amateurs they don’t drink or go clubbing because the international competition is just too intense and they can’t afford to do that and be competitive.
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 4:05pm | Report comment
ahem…..sports is also about participation, enjoyment, local rivalries, being the best you can even if you’re never going to get past the back pocket in the reserves……
btw – the Amateurs – - the status of many Olympians as Amateurs is a tad cloudy,
but, ……. the great thing about the international competition of Aust Footy between a nice little variety of nations is…..just that, pure amateur.
That’s why it’s so cool playing host to these passionate folk when they make their way down here every 3 years. THAT is pretty cool.
btw – our swimmers have blown the image of not going clubbing, and not drinking……it was a nice gilt edged image whilst it lasted.
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 3:59pm | Report comment
culture and tradition and sport have a varied mix from city to city.
In the case of Melbourne – the culture and tradition of sport is very, very real.
Not all the worlds cities are quite so lucky…..some have historys of warfare, bloody battle, betrayal, famine and plague…….
Melbourne’s a tad naive on that front,…………damn good thing too. I’ll take the sport thanx.
Republican said | November 20th 2009 @ 4:20pm | Report comment
Keeper!1
Are the ‘AFL types’ your stereo type of what you prefer to think they are? What Type exactly are you Keeper11.
We have competition in AFL. This takes place between the tribes referred to as clubs. To expand this furtther tribes become states and then countries I suppose. I really don’t grasp your rationale in trying to devalue AFL based on it’s percieved inferior and limited reach.
As I have stated previously, we dont need to be judged or affirmed by any international benchmark in order to be sustainable or indeed fervently supported. We also stand to compromise much of our games unique cultural DNA in satisfying this ego driven internationalist agenda.
Lazza
I am an avid AFL fan yet follow a number of other sports as well. I dont believe I am the exception in this respect either.
There definately seems to be an agenda on your part and others to devalue our game purley on its parochial status, which is sad.
Republican said | November 20th 2009 @ 4:36pm | Report comment
This is interesting
i was almost excommunicated from Roar this week, for a mild and constructive crit of the roond ball game on a recent Soccer thread.
Are our detractors here of the roond ball persuasion and if so are they being closley monitored, for transgressing in this respect?
Finally – good night and good luck!
oikee said | November 20th 2009 @ 5:08pm | Report comment
Cheers M.C, and thank goodness you can now take any sport, league Union and the real football. Along with the indigernous code of course, we all know that rules the roost. Cheers mate, will be off now before i get bludgeoned by the moderators.
Ben said | November 20th 2009 @ 7:02pm | Report comment
Easy on the RL being international……..182 people at the Aust v France game ? C’mon get real.
International is tough for our two biggest football codes – AFL and NRL whereas Rugby and Soccer would be the laggards when it comes to domestic. Balances out really.
oikee said | November 20th 2009 @ 7:22pm | Report comment
Hey, M.C, i have also seen that the AFL is taking a match to China next october. ? Lions, Esserton, lets hope neither makes the final, ? or is tanking still alive and well. ? Well that narrows it down to 14 teams next year. Mate, i am so far ahead of this game its not funny.
The oikster, hes going to get banned, i can see it coming.
Michael C said | November 20th 2009 @ 8:33pm | Report comment
Perhaps being international is over rated:
Egypt, Algeria diplomatic row grows over World Cup qualifying matchNovember 20, 2009 11:29AM
EGYPT has recalled its ambassador to Algeria as part of a growing diplomatic row caused by a bitter soccer rivalry between the two Arab nations that has sparked violence among fans.
Egyptian fans were attacked after Algeria won a make-or-break World Cup qualifying game on Wednesday in the Sudanese capital Khartoum, and offices of Egyptian companies in Algeria were ransacked after a game in Cairo at the weekend.
Perhaps, just perhaps, sometimes – it’s better to keep the rivalry to the level of across streets or a river than across national borders. (note – ’sometimes’, international is not always best).
JimC said | November 20th 2009 @ 11:19pm | Report comment
The aussie soccer fans like Keeper11 seem to want us all to watch soccer to the exclusion of everything else. Be careful what you wish for.
It would be no better if AFL or RL or RU or korfball dominated. Diversity should be cherished.
Robbos said | November 21st 2009 @ 5:41pm | Report comment
The Aussie Soccer fan wants to watch their sport of choice in their own country, is thsi that difficult to understand.
Michael C said | November 21st 2009 @ 7:41pm | Report comment
Robbos -
“is thsi that difficult to understand.”
yep, but, only when you spell it (“this”) that (“thsi”) way.
oikee said | November 22nd 2009 @ 8:56am | Report comment
Have to agree with you M.C, about international growth, one thing we dont want to do is upset the natives. Some angry nations out their.
Lions Demons are the 2 teams playing in China, read it in the paper this morning, where AFL and Fervola made the back page. 
kick,clap,kick said | November 22nd 2009 @ 9:19am | Report comment
Stop trying to make AFL what it isn’t. It is an Australian game played during the Australian winter, if it was going to be successfully expanded, this would have happened decades ago.
Fact of the matter is it is football that did this and AFL is far too physical to ever be played across the globe (same goes for rugby).
Further, AFL Players have to be ridiculously fit,
Fof F..
This is another myth ..the superior fitness of AFL players….most other sports have a very limited interchange….AFL has 100+…
Some players would run more going to & from the bench.
Freud of Football said | November 22nd 2009 @ 9:24am | Report comment
It is no myth. AFL players run twice as far as footballers and in not a great deal more time, not to mention it’s a full-contact sport with no protection.
I don’t think there is any myth behind AFL players’ fitness, sounds like the talk of a rugby “our blokes are the toughest and fittest in the world” type to me.
kick,clap,kick said | November 22nd 2009 @ 9:32am | Report comment
Its a myth when you can get interchanged whenever,you need it…100+..a joke.
Freud of Football said | November 22nd 2009 @ 9:36am | Report comment
So what if they can get interchanged whenever they need it? They still run 15-20 kms a game, sometimes more over a longer field with full contact.
Where is the myth? They get a break in between which compensates for the extra 5-10+ kms they run per match?
Michael C said | November 22nd 2009 @ 7:55pm | Report comment
Whilst not a huge fan of unlimited interchange in the AFL – the outcome now is that stuff all players get a ‘cushy’ game without much running, and whilst we no longer tend to see a couple of midfielders going head to head unchanged all day and covering 20+ kms,
the trade-off for a couple less km’s is that the intensity/speed has gone up several notches,
which can make it a bit hard nowadays for AFL fans to watch many a game of soccer or rugby and take it seriously because so much is like it’s in slow motion (off side does that, naturally)……that said though,…..there’s crap games of AFL too where teams look like they’re so scared of accidentally winning that they’d best just stuff around with the ball in their own back half……..(groan!!!).
bever fever said | November 22nd 2009 @ 1:44pm | Report comment
I think all footy fans see it differently, lots of fans only want the code to be played in Australia and are not interested in exposing it to the world. They are quite happy with their comp the way it is, there is also quite a lot of fans who would be more than happy to revert to the old state based comps (VFL,WAFL etc).
And of course their are fans like me who want to see the game carve out a niche O/S.
ATM it appears that the AFL has upped the ante in attempting to get players/athletes from O/S to create more depth because of the new tams coming in , that is my take anyway.
But there has been no real attempt to help O/S comps grow from the AFL, this might be changing now, as we see with the AFL game in China at the new stadium , but in reality most growth O/S has been by non-payed volunteers.
IMO there are 2 main reasons why the game has not really spread past our shores and they are -
1- Australia unlike England has not colonised anywhere and therefore our games haven’t, unlike rugby, soccer, hockey, tennis etc that the British took with them.
2- Size of the field and number of players per team, not many nations play cricket outside of commonwealth countries and its much harder to organise a game of football, than a game of park soccer.
Redb said | November 22nd 2009 @ 9:21pm | Report comment
Agree with all of that.
The China game is intruiging but even if fullly funded it needs a long term plan.
Redb
Michael C said | November 23rd 2009 @ 11:41am | Report comment
Interesting re the China game and apparent ACTUAL broadcast interest of AFL in China.
both
“Next year’s match is likely to be broadcast live throughout China.”
and
”There is a large curiosity about the game with everyone we have spoken to in the last few days,” he said. ”There’s an awareness that it is the top sport in Australia and they want to know what makes it so successful. We are really encouraged by the genuine interest they have in finding out more about it.”
captain nemo said | November 23rd 2009 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
MichealC, thats the funniest thing I have read in ages. Please keep them coming
Redb said | November 23rd 2009 @ 12:39pm | Report comment
Dont be like that.
SideShowBob said | November 24th 2009 @ 6:22am | Report comment
A bit more on the game in China, from an ABC correspondant based there:
AFL to play first game in China
————————————-
ELIZABETH JACKSON: The AFL has announced it will have its first ever game in China next year. The Brisbane Lions will take on the Melbourne Demons as part of Australia’s contribution to the International Expo in Shanghai.
The game is part of a wider push to expand Australia’s home-grown football code into Asia.
But as our China correspondent Stephen McDonell reports from Shanghai, converting the Chinese to Aussie Rules is not going to be easy.
STEPHEN MCDONELL: On the outskirts of Beijing, Shanghai or Tianjin is possible to find young Chinese blokes running around and kicking a Sherrin football.
Here the locals who play the Australian game are nearly all university students and their team mates are the expats who live in China.
Zhang Wei plays for the Beijing Bombers. He said he’s been playing Aussie Rules for a year and likes it because it’s game for real men.
But the AFL has bigger plans for China. David Matthews is its general manager for development. He came to Shanghai with an announcement.
DAVID MATTHEWS: In a year’s time we’ll be back with an exhibition game, the first one ever played in China between Melbourne, and Brisbane and just a great opportunity to showcase Australian culture, Australian sport.
STEPHEN MCDONELL: Shanghai’s historic Jiangwan Stadium was built in the 1930s. Here next October, the Brisbane Lions will take on the Melbourne Demons in front what the AFL hopes will be a capacity crowd.
Chinese spectators may not know the rules but the plan is for them to come along out of curiosity and be won over by the action.
Former Brisbane Lion and now Western Bulldogs player Jason Akermanis also came to Shanghai to promote the event.
He took time out of kicking the footy with local primary school kids to speak to AM.
JASON AKERMANIS: Yeah, October 17. When they get a chance to see the greatest, our great game on show at the Expo, I mean it’s our best product I think. It’s such a, it’s ingrained in our culture and our community, so you know, for them to see it live is, there’s nothing like it. Seeing it on TV has never done it justice.
STEPHEN MCDONELL: Lu Jian from the Beijing Bombers thinks the AFL has a fair chance of attracting wider support here.
He says that many people, especially students, have heard about Australian football and that its success here will depend on how well it’s promoted.
It would be an up-hill battle, to say the least, to convert China to Aussie Rules. [*****] But the AFL knows that here all you need is a very small proportion of the population to get interested and you already have a considerable fan base. [!!!]
This is Stephen McDonell in Shanghai for Correspondents Report.
http://www.abc.net.au/correspondents/content/2009/s2749553.htm
oikee said | November 22nd 2009 @ 1:57pm | Report comment
Freud, what you fail to understand is you play for a extra hour. So yes they run further. And i always say rugby league is the toughest, you want to come down to the park and take a hit.? be my guest, and i wont go lightly on ya either.
Dont worry about rugby league players, they are fit, most go 40 minutes without a break. Hey i just read that AFL is taking on the NFL and Baseball in the china shop.
Good luck with that one my friends, should have guessed that AFL would be bringing out some lame game to counteract the rugby league selling rights into USA.
Seems like all they could muster up is a lousy channel that only covers 20 million veiwers, and they have to give the product away free. ?
Gotta laugh at what they tell the broadcasters, yes nobody has heard of our game even though we are the number 1 code in OZ., but dont worry about that, we have never tried to sell our code before. spin spin spin baby spin?:, been selling it for decades to the states my good friends, and gone no-where my furry felines.
Spinner come in my good fellow, how’s me league doing in USA after ten? what that, got 250 thousand veiwers straight up,
Come on guys, when are you going to just tell us the real stories, not some watered down version of the truth.
and they are buying, (not giving away) another full season, thanks spinner.
To go a step further, the only way they can sell Union in the States is to call the game Super Rugby League.
Mate, rugby league is about to explode, as i mentioned , 10 years and its all over, the number 1 code will be known in Australia. And guess what, yes the oikster is on a roll, we will simply just eat up the dead carkass of AFL. 
Where have i heard that before, oh, on the rugby site, and its nearly over for them. Man, you guys must really loathe the oikster. Well, what? what you want me to tell you, your doing fine, wont be long before you not only take QLD and NSW, but China will be next. ?
Take a lesson, what the oikster does is brings you back to reality, and then we can move on from their, baby steps.
Hopefully i wont get banned again. Just being honest. Honesty is banned on here.
Republican said | November 25th 2009 @ 4:06pm | Report comment
Thin edge of wedge!
i have been saying for some time that this AFL off shore focus will eventually compromise our own demographics and this is currently the case with the Western Bulldogs clandestinely looking to sell two home games to Wellington NZ, expediently willing to forego Canberra and Darwin into the bargain next season.
Despite this not coming to fruition they are apparently continueing negotiations which include a letter to the NZ P.M. of all things, for the 2011 season.
What after that, an Aussie Franchise based in NZ’s capital at the expense of demographics that include this nations capital?
I am absolutely appauled at this prospect and as stated previously, this will disenfranche many i.e. myself to the AFL’s detriment, if this money grabbing off shore folly continues.
AndyRoo said | November 25th 2009 @ 8:21pm | Report comment
I thought of you as soon as i saw that.
At first I scoffed at your talk of AFL in NZ …. since then there has been the hawks move and now that Bulldogs story.
Brumbies fans should be worried!
cuzybros cuz said | November 25th 2009 @ 10:00pm | Report comment
republican, what money grabbing off shore folly. this would COST the AFL money. So when do the Brumbies finish republican???
Working Class Rugger said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:25pm | Report comment
cuzybros cuz
Republican’s new exclusive scoop. Now Melbourne have been awarded a Super Rugby birth the ARU alongside the South Australian Rugby Union and SA Govt of course are secretly plotting to re-locate the Brumbies to Adelaide.
Chris said | November 26th 2009 @ 10:12pm | Report comment
There will never be an AFL team in New Zealand – there simply aren’t enough Victorians living there. AFL will never, ever, expand beyond Victoria and Victoria Jnr (WA/SA).
allblackfan said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:11pm | Report comment
the Bulldogs won’t be able to sell two home games to NZ!! Why would NZ shell out all that money for two games guaranteed to make a loss?
First of all, where would you play it? In lower Upper Hutt? The game would have to be played on a cricket oval to keep the expenses (and revenue) down. The last time they had an AFL game in NZ, it was in Wellington with the Swans — it was played at a cricket oval about the same size as Manuka (or smaller), it wasn’t sold out and it was watched largely by Aussie ex-pats and tourists.
The boss of the Bulldogs is apparently a good friend of the NZ PM but he may be asking too much of their friendship
By the way, just where are the Western Bulldogs based? I know in Victoria but that’s all I know (and I’ve been living in Australia for almost 20 years)
Republican said | November 26th 2009 @ 8:15am | Report comment
Cuzybros cuz and AndyRoo
Looks like the Brumby’s are safe because the AFL don’t give a toss about this little town, that is obvious now. The Hurricanes on the other hand will be feeling very nervous indeed, as they should, since Soccer is already creating consternation for thugby across the ‘dutch,’ so I would imagine they are seeking out John Key’s ear as we speak.
I believe that NZ will derive an AFL franchise at this countries expense, as they have with many other codes, despite having absolutely NO Aust Footy grass roots or culture. This is sport today sadly, which is more to do with top down corporate growth rather than fostering and rewarding traditional tribal grass roots and loyal demographics in growing any given code.
i had always hoped in vain, that our game would not degenerate to this extent but now the ‘Internationalist’ cringe lobby have infiltrated, the writing is clearly on the wall.
How ironic that a backwater ie NZ would boast an Aust Footy organization albeit entirely run by Ozzies from the top down, in it’s capital while none existed it’s own countries capital. The game is rapidly falling from grace as a cultural institution especially now that a sovereign country of mercenary repute would assume priority over our games heartlands.
This will transpire in the next decade I assure you.
Shame on you AFL!
Michael C said | November 26th 2009 @ 8:51pm | Report comment
I wouldn’t think the AFL has any definite ‘internationalisation’ strategy other than the more broad ‘Oceania’ concept as a junior development (source of talent) scheme, along with Sth Afr (source of talent),….
….however, just what might be getting texta’d into a little ‘never say never’ category on the whiteboard might be very interesting to see.
cuzybros cuz said | November 26th 2009 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
republican quote “The Hurricanes on the other hand will be feeling very nervous indeed”
hahahahaha
AndyRoo said | November 26th 2009 @ 2:45pm | Report comment
Don’t understimate republican I doubted his predictions at first but they all came true.
Republican said | November 26th 2009 @ 2:54pm | Report comment
cuzybros cuz
The fact that you are casting an eye over this AFL thread indicates your interest in the game as a Kiwi or is your interest purely fear based?
Believe me NZ is already shifting culturally with an increased Australian diaspora and sport is no exception. Australian Football will be wholeheartedly embraced within twenty years and as avidly supported as Union there.
My only concern is that NZ is not given the assumed privelege it seems to derive from this country all too often at the expedience of local demographics, especially when it comes to our national game. NZers simply do not deserve to be considered in this respect.
You know it makes sense cuzybros cuz.
cuzybros cuz said | November 26th 2009 @ 10:00pm | Report comment
Republican, i have sat back and watched you my friend spruik on both rugby and league threads on here about the demise of these codes in the ACT over the last 6 months. You are constantly appearing on both rugby threads, yet you have the hyde to accuse me of being on this thread out of a base of fear. I take offence to that my friend. I suggest Zac is not doing his job in keeping you in line young man!!!!!! I have lost count how many times you have repeated yourself on here with the same stuff about both codes of rugby going down the drain in the ACT and lately you have changed your tone to imply rugby is heading south in the shakey isles. Republican, I will put you straight!!!! I popped my head up on this thread because I saw your name appear in th top right hand corner so i decided to defend my love of rugby. Firstly republican, you are getting really boring. No sane AFL fan would even suggest that rugby is heading south in NZ, not one. Although I donot actively follow AFL, I admire their sporting skills and will not criticise the game here because of the garbage you continue to put forward. Sometimes you start off with what is sounding like a resonable response then you blow it with extreme rubbish. I find your comments quite belittleing to Kiwis because you have little to base your arguements on. Suggestion, why don’t you write an article on Rugby and its demise on both sides of the ditch. I think Brett has suggested it before, however I really think its time for you to put up or shut up as you have been allowed to be a first class sh#t stirrer of both rugby fans and lately Kiwis for too long.
Regards
Tina Meredith
Richard said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:29am | Report comment
Whenever I am at the ANZAC Day clash between Essendon and Collingwood, or attend a key contest like St. Kilda v the Cats, or go to a finals match at the MCG, I never get the impression that AFL is hurting because of a lack of international competition. Rugby union, cricket and to a lesser extent soccer rely on international competition because their domestic competition is so weak. Rugby League has a somewhat stronger domestic competition, but lets face it, it’s the State of Origin match which counts in the elite stakes for Rugby League. The Kangaroos come a very poor second. For AFL, who cares if we play South Africa or not. I’d much rather a great contest with Essendon, Swans, Geelong or St. Kilda any day. And I reserve a special sense of accomplishment whenever we drub Carlton. The great game is great because it’s a great game, not just because its played all over the world.
bever fever said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:26pm | Report comment
I agree that a great game is a great game regardless of whether it is international but i would love to see this game have a international face the size of league or union, i dont think i have a cultural cringe, but i love to see people get enjoyment out of the game that i have enjoyed, and lets face it, everyone else in this world is far more open minded about aussie rules than your average aussie league, union and soccer fan.
People all over the world should be afforded that, that doesn’t mean i want the Bulldogs relocated to Wellington or it will only appeal to me if its international.
I dont understand why you think showing the game off O/S will lower its appeal here.
Republican said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:45am | Report comment
That is an extremely exaggerated and emotively charged response on your part Tina. I am pleased that my posts engage your interest as I have obviously touched a raw nerve here.
There is absolutely nothing deflamatory in my post, certainly no more than others that appear on Roar. I think that repitition is something we can all be accused of from time to time, including yourself and if my contributions are that boring as you like to put it, why not do us both a fave in biting your juvenile tongue if you are that exasperated in future.
Your sanctimony is fairly indicative of most Kiwis I know, so I suggest you re visit your latest bemusing tirade of me, which is more worthy of vetting than anything I have produced on Roar and get some perspective in comprehending what I actually said. You don’t have to agree however it would be better for all concerned that you did not react in such an emotively unproductive fashion.
I won’t waste yours or my time in defending my opinion to you Tina, as there is simply naught to defend and it seems that you are the exception in grasping the thrust of my particular train of thought, which could be because you are a Kiwi and it’s all a little close to the bone which renders any rationale on your part null and void.
Good day and good luck Tina.
Republican said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:53am | Report comment
Richard
My sentiments exactly but try telling that to the cringing internationalists that have infiltrated our great cultural institution. They seem to be gaining in status and would see the game compromised to the extent of international mediocrity in satisfying their expansionist ego’s.
NZ’ers for example will only take up the game if there is NO referance to it being Australian such is their disdain of this country. This would be the thin edge of the wedge if we were to ever surrender the games historical cultural roots to this end.
Cheers
Richard said | November 27th 2009 @ 12:37pm | Report comment
I sure hope that that awful hybrid game with the Irish gets ditched. If they want a contest, let them play a proper game with a proper ball and stop whingeing whenever one of their players gets bumped .Whingers. As for NZ, if they’re happy playing rugger and pulling faces at each other then I’m ok with that. They missed their chance to be part of Australia 100 years ago.
Pippinu said | November 27th 2009 @ 12:44pm | Report comment
The hybrid game is history.
Republican said | November 27th 2009 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
Richard
I second that. I for one dont believe Kiwis are at all like us culturally apart from some shared Brit heritage and even that was quite different for both countries. This similarity is a misconception that’s quite over stated and fuled by sentimental pathos through such dated constructs as the ANZAC alliance, which is a farce really. When one scratches just below the surface, you reveal two very different and opposing cultures that only tolerate each other to be perfectly blunt.
Those Southsea Poms only like to be part of Australia when they stand to glean some benevolent advantage ie as being resourced in a sporting sense, at the same time collectively deriding us at every opportunity.
The sporting leg up they derive is all too often at the expense of local demographics, which must not be allowed to ever transpire in respect of our National game in my opinion.
Cheers
cuzybros cuz said | November 27th 2009 @ 2:21pm | Report comment
republican, i can read you know!!!! making comments such as “the Hurricanes should be worried” regarding a proposed AFL game in wellington, displays to me a sense of immaturity on your behalf!! Over the last 6 months, I have watched various people on here ask you for links/facts etc to back up your opinions. To this date nothing!!! Like I said my friend. Its time to put up or shut up.
Football said | November 27th 2009 @ 2:55pm | Report comment
The expansion policy by the AFL demonstrates its lack of alternate revenue streams which International competition provides for both Rugby & footbal. The amount of resources thrown into makeing expansion work further demonstrates the requirement for alternate revenue streams.
Michael C said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:24pm | Report comment
And the million dollar question is….just what amount of resources HAVE actually been thrown into making international expansion work (as distinct to Australian only).
What the AFL has done is recognise that they MUST take a view 50 years down the track…..and that requires AT LEAST 4 teams north of Wagga.
Standing still would in real and relative terms mean sliding backwards.
Is it a search for alternate revenue streams – - or just shoring up existing?
Over seas expansion – - there’s been stuff all actually investment (esp relative to GWS and GC17) – - – however, there’s more little nibbles of late from a variety of ‘interests’ which makes this area ……. interesting.
Republican said | November 27th 2009 @ 3:02pm | Report comment
I have read many comments on sites over the years on this subject, as well as news papers including the NZ Herald, constantly referring to Unions ebbing national appeal. The most recent of these was in the wake of the All Whites victory over Bahrain and that another popularity poll was conducted on Union V Soccer in this case, is no revelation on my part I assure you Tina.
Whether you choose to believe it or not is no skin off my nose, it has been happening for a good three to five years now, especially at NZ’s Unions Grass roots apparently.
That you choose to communicate in such an agressive manner only reinforces the possibility that you are quite scared at this prospect which is more to do with you than me. I would ask that you now defer from acting like a complete yob and suggest it is you that gets on the front foot in researching the media sources that I refer to at least, especially the NZ Herald, for your links and ‘facts.’
Good night and good luck!
Republican said | November 27th 2009 @ 3:18pm | Report comment
P.S. Tina
I make no apologies for my use of irony in posting. The ref to the Hurricnaes is a case in point. You take things too literally and are way too precious to be using that’ Cuzybros’ non deplume surely?
Republican said | November 27th 2009 @ 7:11pm | Report comment
Bever fever
There is a glut of international fixtures and codes already to satisfy all Australian sporting punters surely.
Have any of you ever stopped to think what makes our game unique? A large component of this is in it’s uni lateral appeal that it flourishes despite a lack of international status. This is truely it’s great strength.
Our’s is not simply just another game but a cultural icon to be nurtured, rather than sold off on a corporate whim, especially to a footy backwater like NZ. It will be compromised forever once it goes down the I/N path believe me and all that you considered great about the game will be lost forever. I believe many Australians take what could be termed the spiritual essence of our game, for granted.
If those countries ie NZ really have a desire to play this game they should do so off their own bat rather than expediently plotting to have a piece of the elite action without an iota of substance or pedigree. NZ are a wealthy developed country unlike say PNG, Saffa and parts of Oceania who if anything deserve more of the AFL’s support. The fact that Hawthorn and now the Doggies are even putting their toe in the chilly Kiwi waters is of grave concern not because the game should not be shared and celebrated throughout the world but because this is the early stages of a calculated coup on that country, which will eventually compromise the loyal demographics of Australian footy devotees, not to mention causing the name ‘Australian Football’ to be dropped in placating NZers to this end.
NZ is a logical place to experiment in overseas top down growth, given all the other Australian leagues they have managed to avail themselves of. As i have stated ad nauseam, if this transpires, it will disenfranchise many who support the AFL in Australia especially if a franchise was built in that countries capital while Australia’s capital remained dormant in this respect.
This needs to be closely scrutinized when talking up these frivolous notions of taking our game to the world because our game is not like any other game in it’s relationship with it’s people and you never know what you’ve got until it’s gone.
cheers
SideShowBob said | November 30th 2009 @ 1:08am | Report comment
An update from todays New Zealand Herald:
“…So confident is (AFLNZ CEO) Vanstam that Aussie Rules will take off in New Zealand he predicts that in 10 years every All Black will have had the opportunity to choose between Aussie Rules and rugby…”
Aussies luring Kiwi kids into kicking and jumping game
———————————————————————————-
The Australians are invading – but in a sporting way.
And New Zealand schools and rugby clubs are showing little sign of fighting them on the beaches, the playing fields or the streets.
Aussie Rules football is booming in schools across the country, with top Melbourne club Hawthorn leading the drive.
The club, in league with the New Zealand Australian Football League, has invested hundreds of thousands of dollars to get the sport approved by the New Zealand Secondary Schools Sports Council.
One teenage Waikato player – the nephew of an All Black – has already made his choice.
Kurt Heatherley, 14, has become the first AFL International Scholarship player to be signed by Hawthorn. Heatherley, whose uncle Geoff Hines debuted for the All Blacks in 1980 and played 12 matches as flanker, has chosen Aussie Rules over his own promising sporting career in rugby.
He will receive specialist training and coaching with Hawthorn over the next three years and make regular visits from his home in Tauranga to Melbourne to train with the club.
Throughout New Zealand primary schools, a junior development programme called Kiwi Kick has already been going for eight months, and 1200 children are now playing the sport regularly.
Next year organisers hope to get 5000 school children playing Aussie Rules when the programme will move into 70 schools nationwide.
Hawthorn’s general manager of personnel and strategy, Chris Pelchen, was quoted in The Australian as saying: “Every secondary school child will be exposed to AFL Football, every one of them.”
One of the Auckland schools to take up the Aussie game with gusto is Green Bay High School, where 50 year 9 and 10 pupils are playing regularly after school.
Two have been picked to play in the Oceania Cup in Fiji in December.
The school’s sports co-ordinator, Casey Redman, said the sport took off when it was introduced this year.
Garry Carnachan, executive director of the New Zealand Secondary Schools Sports Council, said Aussie Rules had to meet some criteria before it became the 43rd sport sanctioned to be taught in New Zealand schools.
Now it is available for all schoolkids to have a go – and Carnachan think it will become popular.
“We’ve always said that if it wasn’t called Aussie Rules New Zealanders would have been playing it years ago.”
Robert Vanstam, NZAFL CEO, said the sport was marketing itself as an alternative to rugby and soccer. “Sometimes rugby can be a bit rough for some children, and soccer a little bland, so we’re a middle ground.”
Vanstam said the fact that no visa is required and Australia is only three hours away makes us an untapped resource of future players.
“There’s no reason why New Zealand can’t take up a new game and be just as successful as Australia.
“First choice athletes are limited, there’s a lot of different sports trying to get the same kids.”
So confident is Vanstam that Aussie Rules will take off in New Zealand he predicts that in 10 years every All Black will have had the opportunity to choose between Aussie Rules and rugby. (!!!!!!!)
Kurt Heatherley, for one, has already made that choice.
Source: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10612332
bever fever said | November 30th 2009 @ 7:25pm | Report comment
Very interesting but IMO quite optomistic, know a stack of kiwis over here and they dont take a great interest in the Australian game because i reckon its called australian rules, their kids take much more interset than them.
Different from South Africans who seem to take a keen interest in footy and many of their kids play, but they dont seem to look at Australia the same way kiwis do.
If Hawthorn can get a couple of international rookies from a couple of years funding and they actually make the grade then i think you could call the program a sucess, this talk of everyone in the shaky isles playing footy is pie in the sky.
Republican said | November 30th 2009 @ 1:40pm | Report comment
The very significant quote is the bit referring to Kiwis playing the game long before this, had it NOT been called “Australian Football’.
This says it all really. Are we, the custodians of the National Code willing to yield to their pathetic collectice cringe in placating them further to take up our great game, by compromising it to this end?
If so may as well put up the Kiwi flag, learn the lines to God Bless NZ and brush up on the Haka from here on in.
I find this prospect not only insulting but sadly plausible, given our benevolently paternal naivity towards NZ over many years and their mercenary ability to extract any advantage from us withouit exception.
cuzybros cuz said | November 30th 2009 @ 2:04pm | Report comment
Republican, takes alot for me to make this accusation but you my friend are a RASCIST and the roar should hang their head in shame for letting you smear the amount of muck that you have for so long.. Tina
bever fever said | November 30th 2009 @ 7:28pm | Report comment
Whats a rascist ?, anyway what ever you mean Republican is not one.
Michael C said | December 1st 2009 @ 8:07am | Report comment
agreed with BF,
I have no idea where you’re coming from using the ‘R’ word in such an accusatory manner.
Republican said | November 30th 2009 @ 2:56pm | Report comment
Hello again Tina.
If you read the comment in the NZ Herald which is not unusual in that part of the world, re NZ’s collective sentiment in NOT wanting to play our national code because it is called ‘Australian Football’, you would have to agree, the discrimination rests entirely on your country. If this wasn’t so glaringly indicative of NZers absolute disdain of all things Australian it would be half amusing really.
RACIST’ is a strong word Tina but then you Kiwis have always been very quick to judge we Aussies, assuming the role of moral barometer for we mere convicts, that Kiwi sanctimony never ceases to amaze.
Have a good day
ohtani's jacket said | November 30th 2009 @ 7:45pm | Report comment
What is it with you Australians and your sports? You spend more time concocting up how to globalise your sports than you do following them. I’ve never known anything like it. Any usless piece of information you find warrants 200 posts about some pipe dream. Crazy.
Pippinu said | November 30th 2009 @ 8:28pm | Report comment
OJ
I think you’re exaggerating – what pipe dream are you referring to?
There are only six or seven regular AFL supporters on the Roar. One or two are a bit keen on developments overseas (and a lot has happened in 15 years with zero AFL involvement); most of us have a look out of curiousity more than anything else; and at least one of our number is dead set against trying to do anything overseas.
Of the 1 million plus people that watch at least one game of aussie rules per year in Australia – you’d be lucky if even 0.1% had the foggiest idea that there were comps overseas.
Speaking of pipedreams – not too long ago someone put up an article about wanting to see live Japanese rugby on Australian FTA.
Now honestly – there’s far more chance of 100 NZ schools playing the occasional game of aussie rules than that happening!!
AndyRoo said | November 30th 2009 @ 8:54pm | Report comment
I think he is also talking about Rugby League too, if he is into rugby he has probably seen a few of Oikee’s master pieces
ohtani's jacket said | December 1st 2009 @ 10:50pm | Report comment
Mate, I played rugby league and Aussie Rules in school, which we called Aussie Rules incidently.
If a bunch of Kiwis end up playing in the AFL, so be it. There’s a fair few of them playing in the NRL and we haven’t exactly become a nation of league lovers. The dominant sports in all countries were decided years ago for far more significant geographical, political and historical reasons than whatever cultural influence Australia has.
Anyway, my apologies for butting in on the Australian game. I saw some ridiculous Herald article and a bunch of absurd comments and couldn’t help myself.
Redb said | December 1st 2009 @ 8:12am | Report comment
“You spend more time concocting up how to globalise your sports than you do following them.”
36K crowd average for AFL games, 3rd highest in the world, I’d say we spend a bit of time following the sport.
It is the off season nonetheless.
Republican said | December 1st 2009 @ 8:15am | Report comment
I reckon he is hoping it’s just a pipe dream.
Who knows how things will pan out and granted, this is all very speculative however when I joined this forum not THAT long ago, many here thought my predicted NZ AFL forays were a nonsense. Now you have some very influential power brokers on board ie Jeff Kennett and some Foot es cray fella who is mates with John Keys. Even the NZ Herald is sitting up and taking notice, so I reckon Union is quietly sweating over this myself.
Pip
I am only opposed to any O/S crusade on the part of the governing body, if it’s at the expense of the patient and loyal heartlands who have already been shafted with the GWS and GC expansions, of which there are many. Tassie has been long suffering and now look like having to share Hawthorn with the ‘Tasman Triangle’ as Kennett has dubbed it. This is unacceptable since Tassie is not onley a state of this country but an historic Footy heartland to boot.
Money is one thing however they, the AFL need to be very careful indeed, not to cut off their nose to spite their face in this process, since we are dealing with a foreign country rather than burgeoning state frontiers here.
Again,NZ quite simply have NO GR’s cred or cultural persuasion for our game and they would change it’s name to satisfy their cringing ego and we would probably oblige them which is more to the point.
Pip, please try to make this subtle distinction re. any future ref to my anti O/S stance because it is not that black and white.
Thanks mate.
Pippinu said | December 1st 2009 @ 8:25am | Report comment
Republican
I didn’t say anything derogatory towards you, I simply put things in context for OJ- what he said was an exaggeration – there is a big difference between pushing a pipe dream (which I believe none of us do), and showing some curiosity towards an unusual development – and that’s how I woudl describe the Hawthorn NZ Hanz Up initiative – it’s an unusual development.
Personally, I honestly doubt NZ rugby would be sweating on this – as I read it – aussie rules will become the 43rd officially sanctioned sport at school.
43 official sports!! That’s a fair whack!!
Redb said | December 1st 2009 @ 8:25am | Report comment
Republican,
“Even the NZ Herald is sitting up and taking notice, so I reckon Union is quietly sweating over this myself.”
Rubbish. There is room for all sports, Australian football sits between rugby and soccer.
you don’t think rugby will take a share of Melbourne’s future talent pool? of course it will. That’s just the way it is no need for any sport to get alarmed.
Redb
Michael C said | December 1st 2009 @ 11:13am | Report comment
There’s a difference between ‘exposing kids to the game’ at schools and having all kids PLAYING for clubs,
and there’s a difference b/w taking on RU head to head in winter compared to the current status of being an off-season sport (up against cricket) that aspiring rugby players can use to keep fit and improve ball handling/kicking skills.
Whatever the AFL/Hawthorn does – it still comes back to talent identification early enough to perhaps divert a couple of decent players towards the AFL…..on that front, it might be in competition with French Rugby!!!!
Republican said | December 1st 2009 @ 9:21am | Report comment
Redb
The elite footy pool of NZ’s talent has traditionally gone to Union however this is already being challenged by League and Soccer. They have never been in a situation like this before, where they will experience a further thinning of available talent as we do here in Oz. Not only will they have to contend with League and Soccer, but our game as well, so I reckon they are sweating because in a decade or so all those budding All Blacks will be also weighing up AFL as a realistic choice of career.
The small NZ demographic will experience a further weakening of their Union pedigree as a result.
Pip
It will be fast tracked from 43rd to third in a decade I reckon. The time is ripe and the AFL have a hunch this is so.
Any offerings on how many Schools in NSW have AFL as part of the sporting currriculum compared with NZ’s quite significant Hawthorn programme?
‘You know it makes sense’!
Cheers
Republican said | December 1st 2009 @ 11:44am | Report comment
Michael C
When the code attracts large numbers it will no longer simply assume the status of an off season sport in NZ, which is what I am predicting.
I think alot of people here are extremely naive if they think the AFL are merely investing in NZ to shore up some sub standard talent identification potential. This is a contradiction in terms given the current NZ off season status will not glean too much quality, so in that respect, they will be planning to foster further growth in the hope the game becomes a winter competitor with both Union and League.
Cheers
Michael C said | December 1st 2009 @ 8:56pm | Report comment
and indeed you might be right – - and in the previous post you mention that AFL might have a hunch that the time is right…..to at least have a punt…..why not. Presently, the actual investment is very small.
The same rules apply any where that Rugby and Soccer exist – - – that in schools, it defeats the purpose to play one or the other, but, a game that sits somewhere in the middle has a definite advantage and a definite use.
Republican said | December 1st 2009 @ 2:41pm | Report comment
For the Kiwi sceptics out there -
Yet another ref to Unions status in NZ.
‘Migrants vital to future sports’ NZ Herald on the 30th of this month under Sport.
Both Netball and Union are heading for minority status over the next 20yrs apparently unless they up the anti by being more pro active in profiling their sport to the ‘New’ New Zealander.
Oo Roo
ohtani's jacket said | December 1st 2009 @ 10:43pm | Report comment
What are you doing reading the Herald? Shameful.
Professor Spoonley has a fair point. I’ve made it myself several times. But it’s all conjecture as he says himself. Let’s have a look at some figures for this year — http://www.voxy.co.nz/sport/rugby-playing-numbers-new-zealand-show-increase/5/24288
bever fever said | December 2nd 2009 @ 1:51am | Report comment
You might enjoy this republican.
Tigers to Lose Rising Star
Wednesday 18th November 2009
With only eight 1st Grade games with the Queanbeyan Tigers to his credit, youngster Kaine Stevens has been snapped up by the new Western Sydney AFL Club for 2010. ……Kaine is the product of the Tigers Juniors and son of George who played 200 1st Grade games for the Queanbeyan Tigers during the eighties and nineties. He played the later part of his teenage years with St Edmunds College Under age teams before being picked earlier this year to play in his first 1st Grade game for the Tigers Club at age 15. He didn’t disappoint posting 6 goals (5 in the last quarter) to ensure the Tigers had a win over Tuggeranong at Greenway Oval.
In a little over two year’s time, Kaine Stevens could be lining up to face his favourite AFL club, the Sydney Swans, in New South Wales’ first ever local derby…….The Year 11 St Edmunds College student grew up in Jerrabomberra, but moved with his family to a property in Little Burra several years ago.
Stevens was consigned to the sidelines for the majority of this year due to a variety of injuries, but represented ACT/NSW at the Under 18 level, and played for the Queanbeyan Tigers’ first grade side.
Kaine will complete his studies at boarding school next year as he looks to secure a place in the inaugural senior squad in 2012.
http://www.tigersclub.com.au/latest-news.php
Pippinu said | December 2nd 2009 @ 10:53am | Report comment
bever
thanksfor that – quite interesting.
Republican said | December 2nd 2009 @ 8:05am | Report comment
OJ
I use the Herald from time to time, as one of a number of resources, in keeping abreast of the Australian diaspora in the region, which is rapidly influencing the cultural shift in NZ, with Australian footy being one such litmus of this evolution.
It is also a fairly good source for measuring the collective attitude towards this country, which continues to be very slow to change. Kiwis continue to assume they will have their pav and eat it also and certainly maintain a bemusing disdain of Australia, it’s culture, politics and people.
I am also interested in PNG in this respect however their sources are no where near as comprehensive.
Cheers
Republican said | December 2nd 2009 @ 8:13am | Report comment
Bever fever
Thanks for That.
I was not aware of this important piece of recruiting news. I believe there will be quite a healthy number of ACT – Qbyn players represented in this new GWS side.
‘
I read today that Struggle Town’ as Qbyn is affectionately called, was a shared nick name if you like, for Melbournes Richmond, also ‘Tigers’ and who sport the same guernsey, as I am sure you are aware.
Just some more historic trivia to pass on.
Have a good day!
Michael C said | December 2nd 2009 @ 10:46am | Report comment
with the really positive results of late that the NSW/ACT Under 16s and 18s have achieved at recent national junior championships – it shows the benefits of the NSW scholarship scheme.
Further benefits must flow from a whole bunch of kids coming together even if just for one year as the GWS TAC cup side,
along with the new academies and high performance pathways, the main thing is that footy kids in NSW-ACT aren’t left in a ‘developmental’ backwater.
Sydney is so big that there’s probably at least a half an Adelaide worth of AFL state expats….you can’t force all their kids to have to look to soccer or rugby because the AFL pathway is too ill-defined. THe main challenge obviously is to incorporate Canberra into it all. But, it’s not good latching a large parasite onto a pigmy hippo…..better get a full size hippo before latching the parasite……..;-)
(no offence meant to the fine city of Canberra)
AndyRoo said | December 2nd 2009 @ 10:54am | Report comment
Sydney is so big that there’s probably at least a half an Adelaide worth of AFL state expats
Hmm this would be interesting what the demographics are, check the medicare transfers or such but I think NSW wouldn’t be a large recipient of SA immigration. And those that would come to Sydney are likely to reside in the talent producing black hole (compared to other areas of the City and State) that is the Eastern Suburbs and CBD.
I am sure there would be some areas that would be hotspots for immigration from AFL states, the Blue Mountains perhaps?
Pippinu said | December 2nd 2009 @ 10:58am | Report comment
Many Southerners end up in Sydney because it’s the financial capital of Australia, and many head offices are there – but I couldn’t hazard guess at how many.
But it’s true that the ones that do end up there are likely to be reasonably well off.
Republican said | December 2nd 2009 @ 11:03am | Report comment
Michael C
I don’t believe Canberra will ever become a ‘full size hippo myself’ assuming GWS are the parasite you refer to? This has always been to the ACT’s disadvantage especially in gleaning any elite sporting franchise.
I reckon we will be subsumed by NSW eventually, with a local council style geovernment. The Federal triange, similar to Washington DC will remain thus. Canberra has struggled to be sustainable since self government was imposed on us really.
Cheers
Michael C said | December 3rd 2009 @ 10:14am | Report comment
Rep’n
had to re-read to remember,
Canberra is the parasite, and GWS/Swans/Sydney based talent pathways in general – - get them properly built and Canberra can come along for the ride,
but, have too many half rrrr’s’d poorly constructed compromises in the short term and the pygmy hippo (GWS/Swans/Sydney pathways) remains a pygmy……..rather than a full sized man-eating river dwelling hippo.
jus de couchon said | December 3rd 2009 @ 6:32am | Report comment
As an Independent observer Im curious re Kiwi /Oz animosity. How serious is it? With so many common interests why do they barely tolerate eachother? Im not trying to stir things up , but would be interested to know.
Redb said | December 3rd 2009 @ 8:45am | Report comment
They tend to be quite arrogant about their little country and posesss a stange superiority complex when it comes to Australia and Australians and yet they’re all over here.
I make it firm policy to never employ New Zealanders.
Respect the haka though. One of the best cultural sights in sport.
Redb
AndyRoo said | December 3rd 2009 @ 8:55am | Report comment
I work with heaps of them and have no problems. Sure they bore me to death sometimes about their talk of provincial Rugby (reds vs taranaki colby hurri blues) but eventually (takes about 10 years) they realise RU isn’t a huge part of Australia’s culture and all these years they thought they were striking a blow at the heart of the Australian Sporting psyche they then find out they were just beating a few private school old boys.
10 years after that then they complain about Warney retiring.
Jay said | December 3rd 2009 @ 8:54am | Report comment
Id say the Aus – Eng rivalry is greater, but its just a neighbourly thing.
We’re both similar in terms of demographics and history.. I guess its not too much different to the US-Canada rivalry.
Republican said | December 3rd 2009 @ 8:38am | Report comment
The animosity is often passed off as friendly rivalry however this is no simple exercise in deconstructing and a can of worms probably best left alone. I would be happy to give my account on a more appropriate forum perhaps, however I believe that to stir the poss here would be tantamount to war!
I will say the resentment is more from the Kiwi side, while most Australians are quite impervious to how deep seated this collective NZ sentiment runs, their cringe being a serious affliction of national proportion.
Culturally we share some British veneer that gives the appearance to the rest of the world that we are one and the same however this is overstated and along way from the truth. Our Britishness and colonial foundations were very different indeed and I could elaborate on many other factors that make NZ and Australia like cheese and chalk really, but that’s about all i will say here jus.
Cheers
Michael C said | December 3rd 2009 @ 9:07am | Report comment
and the sooner we adopt a clearer and more distinct national flag – - as a re-born republic nation – - the better. If only, on the basis of comparison to NZ!!!!
Richard said | December 3rd 2009 @ 9:27am | Report comment
Wow. This debate has really strayed from its original thesis. I have to say that many of my friends are New Zealanders, they have a beautiful country and I don’t care a toss whether they like Australian Football or not. As a sports lover I also enjoy a good game of rugby at the international level and lets face it, its the only sport NZ’ers are good at so all power to them in their love of the sport. So let them have their pride in the All Blacks and their love of the beautiful game. So happens that my first love is AFL; I can’t explain the pride I feel when those Black and Whites run out onto the ground, no matter where they sit on the ladder, and the joy I feel when they win without any input from me at all. It just happens. And because it happens its the reason why I don’t think AFL needs an international competition. Lets have a real state based comp, if players need some national recognition. With or without New Zealand.
Redb said | December 3rd 2009 @ 9:32am | Report comment
I dont think anyone is seriously opposed to NZers. Just a bit of fun.
albatross said | December 3rd 2009 @ 9:41am | Report comment
The Ruddster needs a distraction or two and all that clean hydro energy would help reduce our per capita CO2 emissions.
I say we invade NZ.
Everyone’s a winner. NZers would learn to talk properly., Australia would have an unbeatable RU team, the AFL could have a franchise in Auckland.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo6fgZ-dbOw
Pippinu said | December 3rd 2009 @ 10:18am | Report comment
There’s a lot of merit to that idea.
Republican said | December 3rd 2009 @ 3:09pm | Report comment
There could be merit in purchasing H2O from the Shakey Isles to be sure however, any support for a NZ Footy franchise must be seriously challenged Pip.
There are many more deserving local demos to nurture and foster and quite frankly to go to NZ would devalue our game irreparably.
You know it makes sense
Cheers
Republican said | December 3rd 2009 @ 7:20pm | Report comment
Michael C
You have got to be ‘Roars’ solitary Hippo Boffin surely?
I must defer to you on anything relating to hippos in future, pygmy or otherwise mate.
I am impressed.
The GWS Pygmy Hippos does have a ring to it however – the Canberra Parasites???
Cheers.
Jaredsbro said | December 3rd 2009 @ 7:54pm | Report comment
Now I really am insulted…absolutely no-one alterted me to the subtle subterfuge happening in this thread (behind my back I might admit
) NZ is a beautiful country and in terms of the variety of landscape maybe only the United States is better than us. But in terms of culture we tend to be quite…backward, in comparison with you Aussies. But you Aussies are exceptionally blessed by an aptitude for sport (and you’re right we sometimes do envy you guys) and a more optimistic outlook on life in spite (or because) of the hardships of your founding
We Kiwis are better at taking risks if only because all those who came here definitely had a lucid notion about how far we are from everywhere else, which didn’t appear to be the case for some Australians who came from the old country
Finally there’s a general consensus about how friendly we are as a people, maybe due to the long-lasting tradition in these parts of being hospitable to all outsiders or maybe as part of a realisation of the fact that we need to get the most from all the visitors we get
AndyRoo said | December 3rd 2009 @ 9:29pm | Report comment
I always felt like kiwis were a little bit softer of heart (in a good way). If your in Thailand and the beggers approach you it’s always the Kiwi who snaps first and hands over his baht
And also the treatment of indegenous people isn’t a favourable comparison for Australians.
Republican said | December 4th 2009 @ 8:20am | Report comment
I do believe Kiwis think theirs is the only country on the planet that is ‘beautiful’. This is something they frequently use when comparing Oz with NZ and implies that Australia lacks beauty.
‘Beauty is in the eye of the beholder’ surely!
AndyRoo
This is an Interesting analogy which is not often realized with re the Indigenous peoples of this continent and NZ’s and that is Aboriginal Australians were far more fragmented and broken up into numerous language groups. They were often at odds with each other and the immense vastness of the country made it near impossible in countering the imperialist advances of perfidious Mother Albion.
Conversely, the Maori according to my sources, spoke the one language which helped their cause no end and geographically they were advantaged in this respect as well.
Just thought this should be shared given the predictable stereotyping that sometimes ensues when broaching this subject.
I will endeavor to get back on track now.
Cheers
Cheers
jono52795 said | December 4th 2009 @ 9:58am | Report comment
Whoa! Never would have guessed this articke would be the 3rd most talked about on the Roar! Look, the point of the article was above all else:
-To inform readers that the game of Australian Rules is specificley devoted to clubs
-Representative football appeals to people in the 21st Century (I should know, I am a minor after all)
-The game is too “One-Dimensional!” Modernisation in our game must be acheived
-The best code of football is Australian Rules, why are we limiting it to this country
-International awareness is better than International recruitment
Thanks for all the replies!
Jaredsbro said | December 4th 2009 @ 2:44pm | Report comment
Yeah a definite advantage, but remember the Aboriginals (if I know my Oz History) were largely confined to specific areas of the continent. The Maori travelled around a lot more=because everything was a lot closer
This interchange created a uniquely Maori culture where otherwise you would’ve had twenty or so tribes with their origins all in different Polynesian islands.
By the way I think NZ would actually be quite good at Aussie rules Republican, it may be an insult to you as you think us below your wonderful game, but there was a reason it was at least as popular as other football codes in the South Island from 1850s to 1870s. The problem with the coming of Rugby School rules was that it meant the end of a brief period of cross-polination between footies in NZ (particularly in the coastal strips) but since then we’ve defined success in sport first by seeking to beat Albion and then more recently you guys (particularly after your RU got better and our Cricket got better!)
Republican said | December 4th 2009 @ 11:36am | Report comment
jono
Thanks to you too.
I trust you have taken on board some of the real concerns from those who DON’T support the internationalist agenda as well.
Cheers
ruckrover said | December 5th 2009 @ 8:25am | Report comment
Aussie Rules grows every year around the world – sure it is only “green shoots” that could whither and die, but in fact the growth has accelerated every year for past 15 years from virtually zilch to around 40,000 participants. The structures are starting to be put in place for the next phase of more organised growth – and this includes belated interest by the AFL itself. Expect 100,000 participants 10 years from now and as many footy players outside Oz as within it 30 years from now.
http://www.worldfootynews.com
ruckrover said | December 5th 2009 @ 9:19am | Report comment
Should add:
Why this international expansion?
Well – it is not the AFL going out and trying to evangelise the world – no matter that some cynics in the media have tried to portray it as.
The growth from zilch to 40,000 in 15 years was nearly all expat Aussies wanting to play the game they loved where they were living and inspiring local converts to join them.
In the past few years the AFL has had to take notice because the international Aussie Rules leagues wanted to come and play a world cup style tournament in Melbourne. The AFL found itself having to be host to uninvited guests. Then it found by last year with the jump in standard in the 3rd International Cup – that these guests had a lot of talent.
I suspect the AFL’s current interest is they see international development shoring up the standard of the competition through increased talent.
If 30 years from now (and very possible) there is 1 million participants in Australia and another million overseas – then the standard of an 18 or 20 teams AFL competition would be very high – drawing more fans, TV dollars, merchandising, kids wanting to play the game.
By then a niche global TV market of a miniscule % of world’s sports fans could translate to a doubling of TV rights for the AFL.
There is another side to the globalisation coin. Certainly in Australia globalisation supports interest in big international sports like Soccer. But conversely a tiny growth of Australian Football globally leads to big dividends for the indigenous code here.
Republican said | December 9th 2009 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
Jaredsbro
Australian Footy was palyed briefly in NZ post gold rush and by expat Aussies in the main i believe. That’s along time ago.
Who knows how good NZ would be at our game. NZers are obsessively opposed to most things Australian however and it has been stated that the game would have to compromise any referance to its cultural heritage in order to placate Kiwis to be involved at any serious level, so thats quite insulting for starters.
I personally don’t care one iota that NZers do not take an interest in our game as there are more than enough Trans Tasman jingo contests to endure as is and if anything, it is refreshing to be able to follow something that does not include NZers for a change.
I have watched Junior Kiwi teams over the years, play in the now defunct’ Barrasi Cup’ and can say although their entusiasm was compendable, especially when pitted against any Australian teams which was almost akin to war for them, their skill levels were no where near as good as say the PNG teams and this despite far greater resources and support from OZ.
The NZ teams I have witnessed in action and this has also been said of the recent VAFA U18’s v the NZ Falcon U20’s, tend to play quite an agricultural style game, which has much to do with their Union background. These games are always blown quite liberally otherwise the free kick count would prove impossibly demoralising for the young Kiwi lads, who are very hard at the ball and have little restraint or understanding for the finer points of the game.
MY real concern is more to do with the AFL potentially gifting a NZ city a franchise at the expense of our loyal demographics. This is unacceptable to me, especially since NZ would have absolutely diddly pedigree to offer such a franchise. Any NZ AFL organisation would be entirely patronised from the players, coaching staff through to management by Australians so it would be a purely corporate top down move on their part which must NOT be allowed to happen with ‘Australian’ Football.
Canberra, the capital of our country continues to campaign for inclusion in the indigenous codes elite league as well as having to consatntly grovel for more elitte fixtures being played there. Conversely Wellington, the capital of a soveriegn country and an AFL backwater, is being touted for two Doggies home games after doing the dirty on the ACT in this respect for 2010. That is also insulting.
The ACT have quite a decent Aust Footy pedigree and in fact, any place you care to mention in this country compared to NZ does. I would say the exceptiopn in venturing off shore for some talent would be PNG in this respect. T.I and the Tiwis especially, are extremely passionate and skilled at the indig game and close to PNG as is all of the top end where the game is very strong indeed, so the AFL really should be focusing more on our backyard potential rather than any Kiwi corporate driven folly.
Cheers
jus de couchon said | December 10th 2009 @ 2:45am | Report comment
AFL will do well to not repeat the misstakes of Leagues fantasy driven expansionist ambitions. Some posters allude to the fact that AFL does not need to be an International sport. Here in the U.K, as witnessed by the recent 4 Nations debacle , money is thrown away to support invented International teams at the expense of real supporters.
Michael C said | December 11th 2009 @ 12:57pm | Report comment
Good to see the Oceania Juniors tournament ready to go in Fiji in the next couple of days.
it occurred to me that with Australian soccer having pulled out of the Oceania confederation, it’s a nice little combination of factors to give Australian Football a good shot at getting somewhere – - – I wonder if that’s been a consideration in deciding to actually have a reasonable (I stop short of saying ‘fair dinkum’) crack at it.
Justin said | December 11th 2009 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
Rugby is the national sport in Fiji
Michael C said | December 11th 2009 @ 1:17pm | Report comment
That’s nice.
Mr said | December 11th 2009 @ 1:28pm | Report comment
Although Australia pulled out of Oceania, FIFA have upped their spending in these economies. With the World Cup bid requiring the support of the OFC, the FFA have also been spending on equipment, fields and training. The last I heard, football was outspending both the rugby codes combined.
captain nemo said | December 11th 2009 @ 1:38pm | Report comment
christianity and rugby came to places like Fiji with christianity remaining strong in the islands because rugby is the game they play in heaven
There is 2 things that Fiji will never waiver, their strong faith and their love of rugby. Everything else is irrevelant…