By Truf Saya
November 25th 2009 @ 1:55am
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Cold hard facts show Tendulkar is overrated
Indian batsman Sachin Tendulkar nicks a delivery from Australian bowler Brett Lee - AAP Image/Julian Smith
In modern society, the media are the new priests. They pronounce on all manner of things with the air of being the ultimate authority. To challenge these experts is heresy. Yet it can be done.
These so-called experts are vulnerable in a variety of ways. For instance, you can dispute the credibility of their views by bringing forth facts. I believe Tendulkar is overrated and I believe I can show this with hard-core facts.
The only measure by which Tendulkar outshines other batman is the sheer volume of his runs. There are reasons for this and we shall examine them later. But by every other measure he is outshone. Lets look at those metrics.
1. AVERAGE: Sangakarra, Kallis and Ponting all have better averages. If we look at average by batting position Jayawardene also outranks Tendulkar. Note that Ponting and Sangakarra also play in the slightly less protected batting position of number 3. Tendulkar has never batted at this position.
2. 1000 RUNS PER CALENDAR YEAR: while Lara, Ponting and Tendulkar all have 5 years. Both Lara and Ponting have achieved theirs in much less time. Kallis has also achieved his four 1000+ years at a faster rate than Tendulkar.
3. MOST RUNS IN A TEN YEAR PERIOD: Ponting, Kallis, Dravid, Hayden, Jayawardene and Sangakkara have all scored more runs in the last ten years. Ponting has scored more than 2500 runs than Tendulkar over the same period, this despite batting at number 3. Indeed over EVERY single comparable Ten Year period Ponting has scored more runs than Tendulkar.
4. MAN OF THE MATCH: Kallis and Ponting both have more man of the match awards then Tendulkar. Kallis, Ponting, Lara, Hayden and Sangakarra all receive man of the match awards at a greater strike rate than Tendulkar.
So why does Tendulkar have so many runs?
Simply put, it comes down to two things: time and playing in India.
His longevity is a massive credit to him. But another reason is that playing for India and in India is a massive boost for batsmen and there are metrics that can show this clearly.
1. DRAWS: Tendulkar has played an incredible 66 draws! That is almost 41% of the matches he has played have ended in a draw. Remove those matches from his average calculations and his average drops a massive 5 runs to less than 50. That is around a 10% boost from those draws. His average in drawn matches is 65. Interestingly, an analysis of Dravid produces a similar conclusion.
2. MATCHES WHERE TEAMS SCORE GREATER THAN 600 RUNS: over 50% of matches where a team scores over 600 runs in the last ten years have been played in India. Indian pitches produce big scores.
3. GROUND AVERAGES: over the last 20 years, Indian grounds have averaged more than 70 runs per match than those outside of India (minimum 5 matches).
Discussions like the above can generate a lot of heat but not much light.
Amongst the palaver and the hyperbole, the figures reveal the truth about how good a player is. The truth is, Tendulkar is overrated.
Or rather, some lesser rated batsmen should be given more credit.
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(437)
Wayne of Windale said | November 25th 2009 @ 2:13am | Report comment
I like it. Reminds me of when Christopher Hitchens called Mother Teresa a fraud and a fanatic, he was probably right too.
Everyone who reaches the top of their sport these days is referred to by the media as the “greatest ever”. Sampras had barely put down his racket when he found out he wasn’t the “greatest ever” anymore.
But I would say Tendulkar is one of the best cricketers of our time and if that is the claim the “media” is making then the stats only seem to support this. So it depends on how you are rating him as to whether he is over-rated.
But regardless, he is the batsman I have enjoyed watching most since I have been alive.
Dave1 said | November 25th 2009 @ 2:52pm | Report comment
Why was Christopher Hitchens right to call Mother Teresa a fraud and a fanatic?
sunil kumar said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:59pm | Report comment
well this is one of the worst article i have ever read to suit one’sopinion. you can use n number of figures to suppport your silly point but the fact is that tendulkar is the greatest among the modern generation.I can support my view with better statistics but this piece doesnt deserve it. you just come with 5 and 6 points and conclude on the grtness.
some more points
1.average doesnt determine greatness.
2.when tendulkar completed a decade these batsman were not even in the reckoning.
3.on the same indian pitches your pointing has batted like chris martin.
cricket is a team game and man of the match is given generally to winning team.
so Pls stop this silly blogging.since the name tendulkar attracts every one just to catch attention dont write anythin just for the heck of it.there is no denying the greatness of tendulkar,ponting,lara and dravid.so dont try to undermines one just beacuse you are the fan of other one.
RAhul said | February 24th 2010 @ 10:56pm (4 weeks ago) | Report comment
Wonder how overrated is double hundred against SA. I can only hope the editor is following Sachin over the last 20 years. Very easy to relate longevity to performance. Not as easy to carry the pressure of consistency over this extended period. Stats can be skewed every which way. Let’s consider ourselves lucky to have experienced these achievements from a class apart. Ponting and Kallis might have the same feelings. Comparison to Sachin should be honourable enough. Judging them to be better is what statisticians can at most conjure.
marees said | February 25th 2010 @ 1:55am (4 weeks ago) | Report comment
problem with this blog-post has been that it considered only test match performances, which is out of sync with this age and times
Sachin is tipped to cross 100 international(Test + ODI) hundreds by the end of this year. Only major hole in his ODI cv is a missing world-cup trophy.
In ODIS, he now has FIVE 150+ scores
150+,
160+,
170+,
180+
and now 200*
Dave1 said | February 25th 2010 @ 2:18pm (4 weeks ago) | Report comment
Test cricket has risen in importance in recent years especially since the decline in ODI importanc
ohtani's jacket said | November 25th 2009 @ 2:21am | Report comment
Anything can be overrated if you put your mind to it. It all comes down to personal annoyance and to be honest I don’t think your arguments proved much, but I agree that Indian pitches are ridiculous. This current series being an example.
Dave1 said | November 25th 2009 @ 2:58pm | Report comment
According to Rob Steen
http://www.cricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/433868.html
“….In the nineties, six teams drew at least 35% of their Tests; not one has done so this decade…”
sahil said | December 5th 2009 @ 6:01am | Report comment
If indian pitches are ridiculous and sachin has a higher average because he scores more in India then surely ricky ponting is a crap batsman because he cant bat for his life in India.
kumar said | December 23rd 2009 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
Yet, Tendulkar scores 1 run less away to his home average… And here is one more, Tendulkar has 24 centuries away, and just 19 at home…
Ponting’s home average is 60, and away average is 51, difference of 9 points… 9 points to 1 for tendulkar…. Ain’t cricket great…?
Philip Antony said | November 25th 2009 @ 2:42am | Report comment
Hi there very good findings abt Sachin..i guess Don Bradman made a mistake wen he compared himself wid Tendulkar????
Wat do you think abt that? Any statistical findings abt that matey?
Punter never had to face the likes of a feiry Aussie like bowling, his records or runs are very commendable but..most centuries scored against Aussies after Sir. Jack Hobbs? Have a look in Google …to update urself with the statistics..
Phil
Newzealand
Freud of Football said | November 25th 2009 @ 5:05am | Report comment
i dnt knw wot u iz saying Phil from Newzealand.
This isn’t a mobile phone and you aren’t writing a text message.
Philip Antony said | November 25th 2009 @ 7:02am | Report comment
Hey why u worry abt what i am writing mate? Thanks for finding out that this isnt a cell Phone ..
Severian said | November 30th 2009 @ 5:56pm | Report comment
Don Bradman was the best batsman of all time, but that doesn’t make him infallible. He was still a human being who made mistakes, many of which happened when he was involved in cricket after he retired from playing. Watch the documentary “Cricket in the 70’s”, and you’ll see what the Aussie players of that time thought of him. Or read some of the things Tiger O’Reilly wrote about him.
His opinion on Tendulkar is not particularly relevant, given that he died 8 years ago at the age of 92, and Tendulkar hasn’t even retired yet. Cable tv only came into Aussie homes in the mid to late 90s, and India only played 11 test matches against Australia in the 1990s, so how much cricket could he have really seen Tendulkar play?
I think the tradgedy of Tendulkar is that he never got a chance to prove how great a player he really is, because India played so few test matches when he was in his prime, and so many of their wickets are too flat.
Philip Antony said | November 25th 2009 @ 2:54am | Report comment
Hi Just attaching a blog about tendulkar …dunno how you managed to find your data but…please read through…might help you….
ODI batsmen ranking based on what they have achieved over their careers.
The following 8 facors are considered.
1. Total runs scored (TRS)
2. Batting Average (AVGE)
3. Runs per Innings (RPI)
4. Strike Rate (STRT)
5. Quality of bowlers faced (BOWQTY)
6. % of Team runs (TRPER)
7. Wins achieved
– Absolute number of wins (WINS)
– Win % of matches played (WINSPER)
8. MOM awards received/frequency (MOM).
A brief description of each factor and the weights given to each parameter is outlined below. The total points add up to a nice round sum of 100.
1. Total runs scored (20 points)
This is a recognition of the longevity of the player. There is no doubt that the runs scored has to be given decent weightage. At the same time care has been taken to see that the olden era players such as Richards, Greenidge et al do not suffer unduly. My belief is that it is very unlikely for any batsman, including Tendulkar, to exceed 20000 runs. Hence the limit seems correct. The formula used is
TRS = Total runs scored / 1000.
2. Batting Average (15 points)
This is a straightforward calculation. We need not worry about not-outs since there is a separate factor for that. Since the batting average is unlikely ever to exceed 60.0, we are within the maximum level. The formula used is
AVGE = Batting average / 4.0.
Note: David Barry is doing some simulation work with a view to establish a correlation between Average and Strike Rates. It is too early to incorporate these first level findings. Hence at this stage I have taken the simple, easily understandable method of separating the Average and Strike Rate measures with individual weightages. Similarly Jeff Grimshaw’s ideas about treating balls played as a resource and giving credit for the same is quite good. However I do not want too many overlapping parameters. Already I have Average and RPI.
3. Runs per Innings (5 points)
This is to mitigate the factor of a high number of not-outs, especially for middle-order batsmen. Again a straightforward calculation. Since the Batting average is unlikely ever to exceed 50.0, we are within the maximum level. The formula used is
RPI = Runs per innings / 10.0.
Note: I briefly toyed with Abhihjeet Dongre’s excellent suggestion of excluding from the total number of innings the innings in which the batsman has finished not out at a score below his batting average. This redresses the balance towards middle order batsmen slightly. However I have finally rejected this tweak since I feel that they have already got the full benefit of not outs while calculating the Batting Average. The purpose of separation of these two factors will be lost if I do not use the full complement of innings played.
4. Strike Rate (25 points)
I consider this factor as the most important measure and that is reflected in the weightage. However much we talk about the importance of scoring runs, it is essential that these are scored at a reasonable pace. It does not mean that every century should be a run-a-ball one. However, it is true that many a match has been lost because the batsmen have not moved up the scoring rate at the right time.
However a major tweak has been done. The actual strike rates have been adjusted up or down based on the decade scoring rates pro-rata. In other words, if Viv Richards played between 1975 and 1991, his actual scoring rate has been adjusted pro-rata for the three decades, viz., 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. In general this will mean that the older players will get a slight benefit since the scoring rates were lower, as indicated in the table below.
AllMats 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s
Matches played 2759 82 516 933 1228
Batsmen innings 47947 1418 8838 16266 21425
Runs scored 1142018 30292 202884 386508 522334
Balls bowled 1473233 46208 277516 505727 643782
Runs per ball 0.775 0.656 0.731 0.764 0.811
% of all-matches avge 100.0% 84.6% 94.3% 98.6% 104.7%
The actual and adjusted strike rates for a few top players is given below. All these adjustments seem very reasonable. The only clear cases are for batsmen such as Pietersen and Dhoni who have played all their matches in the current decade and hence have the same adjustment of -4.4%. The others are pro-rata. For instance, Tendulkar’s and Lara’s strike rates have been adjusted much less since they have played during 1980s, 1990s and 2000s. Zaheer Abbas gains the maximum since his career spanned 1975-1985, the low-scoring years.
Batsman Prev SR Adj SR % chg
Richards I.V.A 90.2 98.4 +9.1%
Haynes D.L 63.1 66.9 +6.0%
Jones D.M 72.6 75.4 +3.9%
Greenidge C.G 64.9 70.8 +9.1%
Zaheer Abbas 80.0 89.7 +12.1%
Tendulkar S.R 85.5 84.6 -1.1%
Jayasuriya S.T 91.0 90.1 -1.1%
Gilchrist A.C 96.9 94.4 -2.7%
Lara B.C 79.5 78.6 -1.3%
Sehwag V 99.1 95.3 -3.8%
Shahid Afridi 111.2 108.2 -2.7%
Klusener L 89.9 88.2 -1.9%
Dhoni M.S 91.3 87.2 -4.4%
Pietersen K.P 87.5 83.6 -4.4%
Since the only Strike Rate to exceed 1.00 is that of Shahid Afridi, I have accepted the fact that only he will exceed the maximum level. The formula used is
STRT = (Adjusted) Strike Rate x 25.0.
5. Quality of bowling faced (15 points)
This is a double weighted adjustment. The objective is to make sure that the runs acored against stronger teams such as Australia are given much higher weighting than the runs scored against weaker countries such as Zimbabwe. Care also has to be taken that the weaker Australian teams such as those during the mid-1980s are treated accordingly. The complex process is explained below.
First a bowling quality index is found for each innings. This is done by the following formula (somewhat similar to the one used by David Barry). I had thought of this earlier, but dismissed it as too complex. Now I think it is necessary.
Sum of (Balls bowled by each bowler x Bowler’s bowling avge)
Innings BQI = —————————————————–
Sum of (Balls bowled by each bowler)
In one of my earlier articles on Team Strength analysis I used a simple average of the top 5 Bowling averages. That was when I was trying to find the strength of team as it walked on to the field. However here I am trying to find how valuable the batsman’s innings was. Hence the actual deployment of the bowling resources is necessary. Wasim Akram will make the Pakistani team that much strong, on paper, however, if he did not bowl a single ball, to that extent the bowling lacks sting.
Now comes the second weighting. For this the actual scores of batsman and the Innings BQI are used. The formula is explained below.
Sum of (Batsman innings score x Innings BQI)
Batsman career BQI = ——————————————–
Sum of (Batsman innings score)
There is some convergence of values as batsmen score many runs. Note the BOWQTY value for the top 5 batsmen. Hence special care has to be taken to assign points. Amongst batsmen who have scored greater than 2000 runs, Craig McMillan is the best with a BQI of 34.48 and Habibul Bashar the worst with a BQI of 43.47. If we lower the limit to 1000 runs, Nicky Boje is the best with a BQI of 31.3 and Glenn Turner the worst with a BQI of 47.63. No batsman has a career BQI below 30.00 and no batsman has a career BQI above 50.0. The Batsman career BQI is used to derive the index value based on the following formula.
BOWQTY = 50.0 – Batsman career BQI.
6. % of Team runs (5 points).
The value of a batsman to the team is also determined by the share of the batting load he takes. In other words the % of team runs he scores. This is a secondary parameters and has a weighting only of 5 points. With a criteria of 2500 runs and above, the highest share of team runs scored is by Zaheer Abbas with 21.6%, followed by Greenidge with 19.2%, then by Richards with 19.2% and finally by Tendulkar with 18.1%. The formula used is
TSPER = % of Team share * 20.0.
Upto this point, the full weight will be given only if the batsman has scored above 2000 runs. Else the points secured will be proportionately downsized.
7. Wins achieved (5 points)
Winning is something special, if not everything (as the Americans profess). No one wants to lose. Hence we should give value to this important aspect of the game without going overboard. This is done in two parts. The first is to derive an index value solely based on the number of wins achieved. This will benefit players who have played more games and have been part of successful teams. The highest number of wins achieved is 220 by Jayasuriya, followed by Ponting with 216, Inzamam with 214, Gilchrist with 214 and Tendulkar with 206. The formula used is
WINS = No of wins /50.0.
8. Win % achieved (5 points)
What about Richards who achieved 132 wins in 187 matches (a 70.6 win %), which is much higher than that of Tendulkar, 206 wins in 417 matches (49.4%) or Steve Waugh, 196 in 325 (60.3%). His win % suffers only in comparison to the current Australian team, some of whom having over 75%.
This factor addresses this problem. Credit is given to the % of wins achieved, subject to minimum number of matches being reached. The formula used is
WINSPER = % of wins x 5.0.
9. MOM awards received (5 points).
The last parameter is on the MOM awards achieved. This is the only subjective measure, as pointed to by Shankar Krishnan of Riyadh. However since this is the only individual evaluation measure available I have to consider it. Whatever be the idiosyncracies of the adjudicators there is no doubt that the MOM awards are a pointer to the contribution to the wins achieved by the team.
I have tried to remove the subjective factor, to a certain extent, by considering the frequency of awards also in addition to the absolute number of awards. This is also fair to the older players. Consider this. Richards has got 31 awards in 187 matches. He lags far behind Jayasuriya who has got 45 awards in 415 matches. However when we consider the frequency, Richards has a frequency of one in 6 matches, while Jayasuriya, one in 9.2 matches. Incidentally Tendulkar leads the absolute number of awards with 55. The frequency ranges from 6.0 to 20.0 (limiting value). The formula used is
MOM = (MOM Awards/30.0) + (3.0 * (20.0 – MOM Frequency)/15.0).
For the last two points, the full weight will be given only if the batsman has played above 50 matches. Else the points secured will be proportionately downsized.
Now the table of top 30 ODI batsmen of all time. The table is current upto match 2759, the facile English win over the hapless South Africans, giving them a 4-0 lead.
The top ODI batsmen of all time – as on 28 August 2008.
No.Cty Batsman Total Runs Avge R/I S/R BwQty Wins Win% % TS MOMs
100.0 20.0 15.0 5.0 25.0 15.0 5.0 5.0 5.0 5.0
1.Ind Tendulkar S.R 79.27 16.36 11.08 4.02 21.16 12.13 4.12 2.47 3.61 4.32
2.Win Richards I.V.A 73.14 6.72 11.75 4.02 24.60 12.20 2.64 3.53 3.85 3.83
3.Slk Jayasuriya S.T 72.24 12.80 8.18 3.13 22.52 12.01 4.44 2.64 2.89 3.63
4.Aus Ponting R.T 71.87 11.11 10.81 3.81 19.63 12.63 4.32 3.59 3.19 2.78
5.Aus Gilchrist A.C 71.12 9.62 8.97 3.45 23.59 12.12 4.04 3.52 2.93 2.88
6.Win Lara B.C 67.70 10.40 10.12 3.60 19.64 12.38 2.78 2.33 3.43 3.01
7.Saf Kallis J.H 67.70 9.61 11.17 3.64 17.33 12.98 3.50 3.15 3.26 3.05
8.Pak Inzamam-ul-Haq 66.72 11.74 9.88 3.35 18.31 11.81 4.28 2.83 3.04 1.48
9.Aus Bevan M.G 66.00 6.91 13.40 3.53 18.31 13.88 3.10 3.34 3.00 0.53
10.Ind Ganguly S.C 65.87 11.36 10.26 3.79 18.14 10.64 2.98 2.40 3.27 3.03
11.Pak Saeed Anwar 65.55 8.82 9.80 3.62 20.20 10.95 2.82 2.85 3.42 3.07
12.Aus Waugh M.E 65.50 8.50 9.84 3.60 19.39 12.29 3.04 3.11 3.22 2.52
13.Aus Symonds A 65.43 5.01 10.09 3.19 22.41 12.58 2.98 3.86 2.58 2.74
14.Slk de Silva P.A 65.02 9.28 8.73 3.14 20.61 12.52 2.56 2.08 3.06 3.05
15.Win Haynes D.L 64.62 8.65 10.34 3.65 16.74 12.16 3.18 3.34 3.63 2.93
16.Saf Gibbs H.H 63.66 7.59 9.12 3.39 20.24 11.95 2.88 3.12 3.03 2.36
17.Ind Dravid R 63.47 10.59 9.87 3.44 17.36 13.25 3.14 2.36 3.00 0.47
18.Pak Mohammad Yousuf 63.22 9.24 10.80 3.64 18.19 10.81 3.12 2.90 3.12 1.40
19.Saf Kirsten G 63.06 6.80 10.24 3.67 17.88 13.45 2.40 3.24 3.35 2.03
20.Saf Klusener L 62.90 3.58 10.28 2.61 22.05 13.92 2.18 3.19 2.27 2.83
21.Aus Jones D.M 62.82 6.07 11.15 3.77 18.86 11.99 1.96 2.99 3.55 2.48
22.Aus Hayden M.L 62.80 6.13 10.95 3.96 19.36 12.26 2.38 3.70 3.34 0.72
23.Pak Javed Miandad 62.74 7.38 10.43 3.39 17.98 13.04 2.38 2.55 3.40 2.18
24.Saf Rhodes J.N 62.73 5.93 8.78 2.70 20.11 15.00 3.10 3.16 2.46 1.47
25.Eng Pietersen K.P 62.46 2.82 11.96 3.87 20.90 14.46 0.68 2.10 3.44 2.24
26.Ind Sehwag V 62.31 5.81 8.11 3.12 23.82 12.41 1.90 2.49 2.70 1.95
27.Ind Dhoni M.S 62.26 3.79 11.85 3.54 21.80 12.73 1.30 2.71 2.90 1.63
28.Ind Azharuddin M 62.10 9.38 9.23 3.04 18.97 12.09 3.20 2.40 2.90 0.89
29.Aus Waugh S.R 61.95 7.57 8.23 2.63 19.26 13.75 3.92 3.02 2.38 1.21
30.Saf Cronje W.J 61.91 5.57 9.66 3.18 19.26 13.51 2.34 3.11 2.92 2.35
Tendulkar is on top, and deservedly so. He has not only scored lots of runs but scored these at a good pace, scored these against good bowlers and contributed more than his share to the Indian cause.
Richards is in second place, again deservedly so. He has scored only 6721 runs, but made up for the huge shortfall in index points with his outstanding average, strike rate, win % and MOM frequency. He may very well move a little bit down in the list in the years to come. But will not lose any of the aura.
Jayasuriya is next, having made up for his low Average and RPI with a mountain of runs scored at a scorching pace. The Lankan readers will be happy that the contributions of the entertainer non-pareil have been recognized. He has managed to retain the third position depsite a poor run of ODI matches against India.
Ponting and Gilchrist, two great Australian batsman, follow in the next two positions, through different combination of high points. Ponting with high average and good strike rate while Gilchrist with lower average and excellent strike rate. Both have great win related numbers.
Lara, Kallis Inzamam, Bevan and Ganguly complete the top 10. This elite placing of these quality batsmen cannot be debated. In fact Lara and Kallis exchanged places after the last match.
There is no doubt that players such as Pietersen (25th currently), Sehwag (26th), Dhoni (27th) and Hussey (39th) will move up the list as they score more runs. However this may be partly compensated by the possible decrease in their averages. Dhoni is surely on the way to becoming an excellent finisher in the Bevan/Hussey mode and as such is unlikely to drop his average. Pietersen’s average could drop a little bit. Hussey’s could drop significantly unless otherwise he does what Bevan did over a long career.
It should be noted that if we change the weightings, the batsmen will move up or down the list. For instance, Strike Rate could be reduced to 20 points. In that case, Jayasuriya and Ponting will exchange places. But these are minor movements only. It is my firm belief that the top 2, Tendulkar and Richards will remain where they are, whatever be the weightings.
Batsmen such as Kluesener, Dhoni and Pietersen, who have not even scored 4000 ODI runs have managed to reach the top 30 positions in the all-time best batsmen table. This indicates that the weightings for non-longevity measures have been given due importance.
Finally, one important point to be noted. No analyst starts with an idea to prove that one batsman is superior to another or push their favourite batsmen on top. Such shallow analyses will be found out in no time at all. The idea is to come out with a vehicle for healthy discussion and exchange of views. Hence please avoid rude and vicious comments. They have no chance of being read by any one. Pl make your point in a courteous and acceptable manner. The readers have their right to be heard but also their responsibilities to be constructive and courteous.
To view the complete list, click here
This list consists of batsmen who have scored a minimum of 1000 ODI runs. Please remember that many of the calculated points are downsized for batsmen in the 1000-2000 range. They are included only to show where some of the batsmen from the lesser countries stand.
Summary response to readers’ comments (Possible tweaks)
1. Avoidance of double weighting for “Wins”.
2. Possible cap on Runs scored weighting.
3. Adjust for the paucity of matches played during the early 10 years.
4. Giving weight to key tournament wins such as World Cup and Champion’s Trophy.
5. The subjective nature of MOMs, already mentioned by me in the main post does not go well with readers.
6. Quite a few readers have, while accepting Tendulkar’s position at no.1, have questioned the wide gap between Tendulkar and Richards. It worries some readers that this gap will keep on widening
davido said | November 25th 2009 @ 11:31am | Report comment
This is a great effort at getting an overall ranking system.
I would suggest that the ICC rankings do a credible job of doing this now.
Also, why not include Batting position? Surely Gilly gets some credit for coming out and slamming bowlers from the get go?
Greg Russell said | November 25th 2009 @ 11:40am | Report comment
The above is all interesting but irrelevant, because it is about ODI cricket, whereas the discussion is on test cricket.
Further, because of the point about pitches in India, ODI statistics have to be regarded very carefully. For many Indians the point of an ODI is as much (or more) to see Tendulkar score a century as it is to win or even have a good match. A lot of pitches are prepared accordingly.
The ICC Players Rankings system attempts to take into account docility of the pitch and quality of the opposition, with performances being scaled accordingly. It is not perfect but no system like this can be. Tendulkar does well with this system but in general he falls short of matching Ponting and even Hayden (e.g. remember the big fuss in India a few years ago about Hayden being 9th on the all-time list for tests whereas Tendulkar was only something like 26th).
Of course people will believe what they want to believe when it comes to subjective issues like this. But I tend to think that the ICC’s ranking system is as close to objective as there is.
ABH said | November 25th 2009 @ 2:57am | Report comment
Here’s some other cold hard facts for you:
1)Till 01/01/2003: The big 3 :SRT 8811@ 57.6 31 hun, BCL 7572@49.5 18 hun; Pont 4246 @ 48.8 14 hun. After mid 2007 again Tendulkar trumps Ponting,Dravid etc.
2) After the 2003 WC-2006, here’s a short bio of Tendulkar:
April 2003: Hand surgery. Most of the next 2 seasons affected by Tennis elbow. At one point in 2004 could not pick up a bat for 6 months. Prematurely brought back after attempting conservative treatment for tennis elbow after India lost the first 2 home tests to Aus. With the inevitable result-more pain and a forced surgery . May 2005: elbow surgery. April 2006: shoulder surgery.
Tendulkar has had some injuries before but they were not all compressed into a short period so recurring. (1998: back injury, 2001 broken toe). So, you have time to get back your rhythm after injury, provided you don’t again get another one.
So, in the years 2003/05/06 , it is not ONLY the pontings,Laras,dravids who massively outscored Tendulkar , but just about every Tom,Dick and Hussey.
This was probably the EASIEST time for batting in cricket HISTORY.
Around mid 2007 Tendulkar got some respite from almost continous injuries and started to get back to something like normal again.
3)Infact if you consider only the 90s Tendulkar avg. almost 60 with Ponting less than 50 and Lara just shading 50.
4)Obviously at his best Tendulkar was the best. That too at a particularly difficult time for batting. Plus you need add ODIs to the workload. I’m afraid in modern day cricket you simply cannot segregate Tests and ODIs. They are joined at the hip. Not a single modern day great has given up ODIs for Tests in his prime.
SO, other batsmen ONLY “outrunned”,”outaveraged”,”outhundreded” etc.Tendulkar for some 4 yrs during his injury ridden spell ( when it was rumoured that he may even retired)….the thing is that in those 4/5 years they put on such OBSCENE runs in such EASY conditions that it has VASTLY inflated their overall stats…completely distorting the true picture.
Basically, out of a 20 yr career, ONLY during a 4 yr spell can any batsmen have said to continously outperformed Tendulkar.
The stats merely affirm what we fans already know (with the possible exception of the author):i.e
The other batsmen ONLY match up to Tendulkar when Tendulkar is injured.
And as of course mentioned the unmatched ODI stats ..Plus intangibles like obscene pressure etc….Tendulkar is simply a Gulliver among Lilliputians. As Roebuck states in a recent article, even stats cannot quite capture the picture as you are attempting to do.
saurabh said | November 25th 2009 @ 3:05am | Report comment
Good one Philip…ur nt geting the point Truf , we in India r celebrating sachin fr nt only his cricket bt fr wat pleasure nd confidence he has given us…it rquires more then cricket for ppl around the world to love players like Sir Don and Sachin. They made diffrence to ppl (lot of ppl).
ABH said | November 25th 2009 @ 3:09am | Report comment
Just a few articles about Tendulkar’s “overating”. Please read and learn:
1)Born to bat- Peter Roebuck 2) Once in a century star- Steve Waugh 3) Sachins top of my batpack- Nasser Hussain 3)The end is nigh but Tendulkar is not yet finished- Paul Moon 5) Only Sachin Tendulkar can equal Don Bradman- John Woodcock.6)Tendulkar’s final onslaught etc. There are numerous others but these are a good starter course for the ignorant.cheers.
Greg Russell said | November 25th 2009 @ 12:04pm | Report comment
And yet Roebuck is the man who famously wrote of Lara: “I never thought I would write this, but another Bradman could be upon us.” He’s never written that of Tendulkar.
Re your list of Tendulkar injuries above, I suggest you check how often Ponting has been injured. Not as often as Tendulkar, but still enough to make a significant dent. (Not to mention too that Lara had his problems.)
Curiously, one name you do not mention above is Warne, who has rated Sachin as the best he has bowled to. On this matter I rate his opinion far more highly than those you list, because he actually had to bowl to Tendulkar, who of course won most of their battles. But even that gives reason for putting an asterisk next to Warne’s assessment, because it means he pretty much has to rate Tendulkar no. 1.
As it so happens I have corresponded with Roebuck on this matter. His opinion is more a holistic one, based not just on batting, but on the way Tendulkar has lived a dignified and scandal-free life under the brightest of spotlights, and the way he has scored mountains of runs even though he has to bear immense pressure to perform from a billion Indians. Indeed. That said, Tendulkar lost quite a bit of my respect when he lied in the Bollywood inquiries in order to protect his good friend Harbhajan (and that is fact, not opinion).
But in terms of whom we like best as a batsman, in the end what we are dealing with here is opinions. Maybe Roebuck was just being polite, but after some discussion he ended up agreeing with my opinion that if one looked only at the dazzling quality of batting on the field, then Lara and Gilchrist rate ahead of Tendulkar and Ponting. I would possibly even throw Hayden into my top 3, recognizing that opening batting is a different kettle of cricket. Too often I saw Lara, Gilchrist and Hayden do things that I never thought possible. Yes, Tendulkar also does special things, but not ones that I find set him apart. When it comes to the Indians, I have always found that VVS is the player who does “very very special” things, especially against Australia!
But hey, they are just opinions. The ICC’s pseudo-objective ranking system backs up a lot of my opinions (see comment above), but maybe I’m just lucky in this regard.
ABH said | November 25th 2009 @ 3:16pm | Report comment
Really now? Roebuck has categorically written that “Tendulkar is without a doubt the best batsman I have ever seen”…never mind Roebuck. An observer as wizened, experienced and one who has seen it all -Benaud has said the same thing.
I remember this other anectode too:
It was 1992. The 18-year-old was up on his toes, carving bowlers like cuts of prime Australian beef to all parts of Perth’s WACA ground. The murmurs around the press box grew. The boy had ability, potential, even the makings of a world-class batsman. John Woodcock could bear it no longer. The cricket correspondent of the London Times, wearing his 70s well, stood up, put out his hands and called for silence. “Gentlemen,” he declared, “he is the best batsman I have seen in my life.” A pause later: “And unlike most of you, I have seen Bradman.”
Actually considering that basically Ponting and Lara are the only batsmen in the same frame as Tendulkar it is instructive to note:
Lara: Sachin is the best batsman I’ve ever seen or played against.
Ponting:Sachin is the best batsman I’ve ever seen or played against.
Think these guys may know a thing or two about batting?
davido said | November 25th 2009 @ 5:56pm | Report comment
I am not South African, but I really think Kallis IS in the same league as Tendulkar, Lara and Ponting.
Justin said | November 25th 2009 @ 9:05pm | Report comment
No he isnt. He is a great batsmen no doubt but he is a rung below. Why do I say that?
Well essentially Ponting and Lara have a strike rate in tests of 60, Kallis is in the low 40s, I think 44.
Clearly Ponting and Lara could and did dominate attacks whereas Kallis and Dravid were more accumulators of runs and more defensive. They dont win you Tests like RT and BL.
Unfortunately there is no strike rate for Tendles in Tests though he has 85 v 80 for RT and BL in ODIs.
We are splitting hairs on this sort of debate though, there are so many variables you could use to determine it or argue why ones numbers are better. Ground sizes, pitches, opposition, the list goes on.
The only thing I know is that Ponting kills them as a fieldsman…
Dave1 said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:13pm | Report comment
Looks like after 135 tests Tendlular had a strike rate of 53.90.
http://www.playwickets.com/uploads/Int_l_4_Cards.pdf
Craig said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:34am | Report comment
ABH, Benaud said Tendulkar is the best batsman he has ever seen?
When?
ABH said | November 26th 2009 @ 3:57pm | Report comment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vthfSPF_LCw
ABH said | November 25th 2009 @ 3:28pm | Report comment
And too reiterate what I said: it is ONLY when Tendulkar was injured that the others even appear in the same frame.
Pontings injuries have been relatively mild compared to Tendulkars. Im sure you can check these out for yourself.
Another thing you want to be careful about when using stats: Ponting,Dravid,Kallis etc were fortunate to have a greater “density” of test matches when at their peaks so filling their boots silly between around 2003-07. The fact that this was perhaps the easiest time in history for batting is easily checked- simply check the stats for the top 25-30 batsmen- they will blow your mind. Infact ANY fit ,reasonably good batsman had the BEST consecutive years of their careers in this patch . Including guys like lara, inzy etc. Lara now has his BEST consecutive years from the age of 34 on!
As rgds.dazzling innings or what have you that if very much in the eye of the beholder. During the 90s Tendulkar carried the team- he practically pulled up the other players up in to a higher level-demanding excellence. Only from around 2001 on was the Indian team even half good.
As rgds. bowlers surprisingly I would not put TOO much emphasis on their opinions as compared to other batsmen!
ESPECIALLY when comparing supreme right and left handers like Tendulkar and Lara.( perhaps ok while comparing on either right or left handers)- this is because then factors like angles ,biomechanics etc start to play a HUGE part. For eg. simply check out Muralis record against ANY good leftie.
Another thing you conveniently forget is that if India had not got so infatuated by ODIs god alone knows what Tendulkars Test stats would have been with proportionately less injuries etc.So, ALL factors have to be taken holistically. Starting from an intitial bias and then picking and choosing stats or other factore will OBVIOUSLY lead your right back to your starting point.
I could go on- but whats the point?
davido said | November 25th 2009 @ 5:59pm | Report comment
I sort of object to the Tendulkar injury line of argument.
A) How do you account for the fact Ponting for instance has missed more matches due to injury?
and in light of that fact…
B) how do you account for the fact that over EVERY SINGLE ten year period you can compare Ponting scores more runs than Tendulkar.
You also ignore that Tendulkar has the incredible advantage of batting at no.4. He obviously faces
second string bowlers a lot more than a no.3 batsman. He also faces less of a new ball.
ABH said | November 25th 2009 @ 6:43pm | Report comment
have posted a comment below looking at 3 yr periods.
as also tendulkars predominantly injury years.2003,05,06.
since some 30 other batsmen have done much much better than tendulkar in those years ( check for yourself) it should be obvious how much injuries took their toll.
you know…
strange thing. …we may perhaps have missed out on the best ( at least the most prolific) of tendulkar!!…odd though that may seem
U2 said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:37am | Report comment
Again, you can’t hand-pick statistics or facts. You say, Tendulkar had an “incredible advantage of batting at no. 4″. From the start of Tendulkar’s career until 2008 (19 years later), India never had a settled opening pair of batsmen, let alone a great duo (Sehwag-Gambhir are now settling into an excellent pair.) Walking in at scores like 30/2 and attempting a rescue with Dravid was the basically the norm of things from 1997-2007. Do you seriously think Ponting had a tougher time batting behind Hayden-Langer?
Craig said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:39am | Report comment
Ponting now bats at three behind Shane Watson.
Sounds to me like you are hand-picking statistics.
Dave1 said | November 25th 2009 @ 3:32pm | Report comment
In regards to injuries
http://blogs.cricinfo.com/itfigures/archives/2009/11/least_number_of_absences_over.php
Least number of absences over a long career
ABH said | November 25th 2009 @ 6:51pm | Report comment
dave1. dont mean to go on. but its not just the pure stats or missed matches. just as an eg. i remember when in 2004 (05)? – i forget…there was a phase when tendulkar could not even PICK UP a bat for 6 months. then b4 he could even barely get a net in they rushed him back after 2 tests out against aus(coz india were getting walloped)…with the inevitable result…a flop..further injury,leading to surgery…
it is the type of injuries ,how they affect your game etc.
http://www.cricinfo.com/sachinat20/content/story/307878.html
the above may give some sort of insight into what i mean
Craig said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:46am | Report comment
ABH, is there a cricket stat for performances by batsman whilst carrying an injury?
Just as you highlight Tendulkar, do you know that Lara and Ponting have not suffered the same?
And if they have, do they, or Tendulkar for that matter, deserve their records to be adjusted accordingly?
Does a physical injury hamper one the same as a mental injury, such as stress? Does that not deserve the same consideration?
So many factors to consider.
ABH said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:09pm | Report comment
Craig,
Im not talking about adjusting records here. What are we discussing here?
how good a batsman is right?
so, we need to provide context to stats…
like i said , without context (and just stats)you have some 30 batsmen who are all better than tendulkar for much of the 2000s.
stats are an indicator…not the end all.
i think just in the Dons case…when your stats are so freaky…that it almost kills off all debate,
then stats are guidelines…
especially in a team sport like cricket…there is soooo much to consider…team compositions, pitches, where runs were scored, when, what conditions, against which bowlers…….etc etc
so,when with class batsmen like tendulkar, lara and ponting( with not much diff in the stats)…the intangibles and observeables are obviously paramount.
like i said…if u start with a particular premise , such as “X is the best” or “Y is not so good”…then obviously u can pick, chose and filter stats as you pls to support your conclusion.
Craig said | November 30th 2009 @ 11:03am | Report comment
the context is………you are picking and choosing stats to prove your point.
ABH said | November 25th 2009 @ 4:38pm | Report comment
Just one last thing ! then im outta here! (getting monotonous)
am sure roebuck wrote that in around ‘94 when lara was scoring all those huge runs in both international and county cricket. heck, ANYONE would have made a comment like that then.
you want to check what people say at the after watching all batsmen for quite a while dont you?
I remember hussey averaging 90+ for a while (“mr cricket” and what not)….
when you consider ALL facets, all aspects of batting ,all formats, all types of bowling, pound for pound – it is truly difficult to look beyond Tendulkar as the best modern day batsman.
Dave1 said | November 25th 2009 @ 4:47pm | Report comment
When did Roebuck become the font of all truth? What parrallel universe have I woken up in?
ABH said | November 25th 2009 @ 5:56pm | Report comment
True, was simply replying to “greg” above.
Greg Russell said | November 26th 2009 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
You were the guy who introduced Roebuck (see your second comment). I was merely keying off that.
Indeed, Roebuck made the “Bradman” comment about Lara in 1994-5 after his 501 in county cricket. So that was an early-career judgement. You are right to express caution about that. However you are the person who has quoted John Woodcock on the 18-year-old Tendulkar as evidence of his pre-eminence. You can’t have it both ways: either early-career judgements are allowed or they are not.
In all your comments you completely neglect the ICC’s rankings, which are the least subjective measure of player performance, taking into account things like docility of the pitch and quality of opposition bowling. These rankings definitely do not show that Sachin is no. 1 for his own era.
Whether you like it or not, you have to accept that a decent proportion of Sachin’s test career has been played on batting superhighways like those of the current Ind-SL series. Thus his raw averages and aggregates cannot be directly compared with those not so fortunate to play so often on pitches like this. You need to understand and accept this.
Craig said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:52am | Report comment
ABH – an earlier post from you, above:
“It was 1992. The 18-year-old was up on his toes, carving bowlers like cuts of prime Australian beef to all parts of Perth’s WACA ground. The murmurs around the press box grew. The boy had ability, potential, even the makings of a world-class batsman. John Woodcock could bear it no longer. The cricket correspondent of the London Times, wearing his 70s well, stood up, put out his hands and called for silence. “Gentlemen,” he declared, “he is the best batsman I have seen in my life.” A pause later: “And unlike most of you, I have seen Bradman.”
so considering you now comment “you want to check what people say at the after watching all batsmen for quite a while dont you?”, your Woodcock quote should be disregarded completely. As should Bradman’s comments comparing Tendulkar to himself.
ABH said | November 26th 2009 @ 3:30pm | Report comment
ok.fair enough.
cheers
ABH said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:28pm | Report comment
Another thing the article “only sachin tendulkar can equal don bradman” by john woodcock was sometime in 2002/03 i reckon. a good decade after woodcock made his “tendulkar is better than bradman” comment.
ABH said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:40pm | Report comment
Actually, on second thought.
at the risk of some “dead horse flogging”..
i think i it is obvious that roebuck was referring to laras undeniable penchant for “big scores” more than perhaps batting ability.
whereas clearly woodcock was referring to “batting ability”
Craig said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:32am | Report comment
“That said, Tendulkar lost quite a bit of my respect when he lied in the Bollywood inquiries in order to protect his good friend Harbhajan (and that is fact, not opinion).”
Terrific stuff Greg. Couldn’t agree more. Would have to be the most overlooked cricket statistic in existense :
Times A Player Has Appeared At A ICC Judicial Enquiry And Lied, Causing An International Incident – 1, Sachin Tendulkar.
ABH said | November 26th 2009 @ 3:39pm | Report comment
Fair enough that you see it that way as an Aussie.
Obviously you will look at it from your particular angle.
But there is another viewpoint, from the Indians (and actually most cricket nations)
The Aussies have gotten away with absolutely filthy behaviour for more than 2 decades with scarcely a warning…never mind match bans etc dished out at the drop of a hat.
So,what now happens. Symonds deliberately goes to the pitch and needles Harbhajan. Harbhajan retorts.
And suddenly poor Symonds gets his delicate sensitivities so offended – because after all the retort was “racist”
So, apparently it is no problem at all when the Aussies can use the filthiest language, regarding all sorts of fornication with wives, mothers,laras private parts and what not…but “apparently” when someone is called a monkey( that too as a counter to specific needling), the oh so tough Aussies get so very offended….and since now ofcourse that someone has actually “dared” to reply to the incessant filth and sledging he must be punished right? and an indian to boot?! how dare..
and u know what?!
that bloody tendulkar “lied” about it to protect harbhajan! my god!
now we lovely ,utterly well behaved,polite, refined Aussies will never forgive him and hence “from now on” we have lost all repect for him.
guys….if u dont like tendulkar for whatever reasons that is just fine…but surely we can do without the hypocrisy.
Dave1 said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:41pm | Report comment
I’m sure Che cocatoo collins and Michel long said some bad things on the field but that doesn’t excuse the racist things that were said to them.
When did the excuse for racism become someone saying something you don’t like.
If Australians lied to cover up racism you would never had have heard the end of it.
Abhishek said | November 26th 2009 @ 5:34pm | Report comment
You know, for some ppl, being called a m**$@f****r is a lot more offensive than a racist comment. Just because you’ve got a bias doesn’t mean all of us have to set our standards that way.
ABH said | November 26th 2009 @ 7:43pm | Report comment
strange. i remember when slater racially abused murali. and went on for a while.
i think the match ref probably said something to the slater to the effect ” now now, thats not on”…and slater went ” aw i didnt really MEAN anything. im not really a racist u know.heat of the moment kinda thing…”….” yeah yeah i understand…….end of story.
ren said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:23pm | Report comment
‘You know, for some ppl, being called a m**$@f****r is a lot more offensive than a racist comment. Just because you’ve got a bias doesn’t mean all of us have to set our standards that way.’
ive never heard it put that way, nor have i heard racism justified so poorly. and talking of bias’ pot. kettle. black
Abhishek said | November 28th 2009 @ 7:17pm | Report comment
well let’s forget the “bias” bit then. i’m justified in saying i hate being called the former, isn’t it? i say that evrytime somebody utters the word he should be punished as harshly as he wud for making racist remarks. fair? no? ‘coz seriously, i do.
& u thinking its “poor justification” is of no consequence to me.
Craig said | November 30th 2009 @ 11:00am | Report comment
what on earth are you on about ABH? What a complete load of rubbish.
So correct me if i’m wrong, it’s ok for Tendulkar to lie, because he was sticking up for Harbajhan against those filthy Australians? But Australians are the hypocrites?
And Abhishek, forget people’s bias (though your’s would appear to be an especially interesting case study) this was an ICC judicial matter, and regardless of what you think is better or worse in the form of insults, racial abuse was, and still is, considered a major offence for the ICC.
Abhishek said | November 30th 2009 @ 2:13pm | Report comment
Both the sides are hypocrites. No problems with that. But then, if Australian’s are gonna be abusive, the rest of the world needn’t be saints either.
And I couldn’t care less for ICC rules. I can see this one’s not fair. If they aren’t prepared to treat all forms of abuse equally harshly, then I don’t have a prb with India doing whatever it can to level the playing field.
Also, I assure you, abusing a wife or a mother is treated far more seriously, in my country atleast, than a racist abuse. Doesn’t matter what your(or ICC’s) opinion is.
Craig said | November 30th 2009 @ 2:50pm | Report comment
well then what a pity Abhishek that you weren’t in charge of the Indian cricket side at the time, because then perhaps Singh would have been told to cop his punishment on the chin, Tendulkar wouldn’t have altered his story, and we all could have done without the histrionics of India’s threat to cancel the tour and head home.
Abhishek said | November 30th 2009 @ 4:22pm | Report comment
Sarcasm noted. Although, you’re partially right. I’d like to see a lot of abuse being punished. At the end of the day, players do abuse each other. So if you can punish ‘em all, excellent. Else, “lying and dishonesty” will happen.
I’m not sure if the tour-cancellation threat was ‘coz of the abuse, or the umpire. If it was the latter, I’m by your side. Loss is a loss, bad decisions or no.
Craig said | December 3rd 2009 @ 3:07pm | Report comment
what sarcasm?
yaanni said | December 13th 2009 @ 5:27pm | Report comment
That Sachin lied during the inquiry……how is that a fact and not an opinion? Can you please prove this?
Can you please explain that if Harbhajan did call Symonds a monkey then how come Hayden & Clarke could hear it but the stump mic and the bowler umpire did not hear it?
ABH said | November 26th 2009 @ 3:55pm | Report comment
Greg
Tendulkar has done better away than at home
ive provided loads of stats. why dont u go thru them?
as rgds the batting “superhighways” why dont u take a look a how well ponting has done on them?
just an eg. tendulkar has done better against aus in aus, than at home.
also the 90s, when tendulkar was supreme among other batsmen, the pitches were more raging turners than flat tracks. the 4/5 days were usually very tough.
sure, the pitches/bowling are much much easier in the 2000s( when ponting got all his runs)..but tendulkar is now nowhere near the batsman he used to be.
Greg Russell said | November 27th 2009 @ 2:43pm | Report comment
“Tendulkar has done better away than at home”
Are all your stats as accurate as this? Cricinfo easily gives that Tendulkar’s test average in India is 55.30 vs 54.73 across all tests. I agree that there is surprisingly little in this, which is an interesting point against some of the arguments made here (including by me). However when you make blatantly incorrect statements then it becomes hard to believe any of the information you quote.
Al said | November 27th 2009 @ 3:19pm | Report comment
Re. stats have posted a msg below as to how Maradona was clearly overrated
ABH said | November 27th 2009 @ 3:39pm | Report comment
all right,i was perhaps talking from memory from a while back. i know for certain it was so .
tendulkars home avg b4 the current series was 54.98. the point is tendulkar has done better in aus and eng where pitches are supposed to be tougher to bat on .
also, pls look at pontings lopsided stats home and away. and ofcourse u dont have to “believe” any stats i put forth. u can check for yourself.
The thing is, as i have repeatedly tried to point out, that stats without context are borderline meaningless.
it should be obvious to anyone who follows the game that a run scored in the 90s was worth more than one in the 2000s. also when comparing say two horses : when u are aware that one horse has a broken leg and limping and u then directly compare it to a fully fit thoroughbred- and then compile overall stats to “prove” one is “better”…
i guess u get the point.
ABH said | November 27th 2009 @ 4:52pm | Report comment
Ah, found it after a litte fishing. b4 the away SL series in 2008 tendulkar away :55.58, home 54.95.
(as of now, as u correctly noted the home avg. is marginally better)
U will note that SL pitches are not bouncy tracks either.
I suppose the point u were trying to make is that the low ,slow pitches in india are easier to bat on than aus and england.
contrast this with ponting: home:60.87 away:49.23
lara: home :58.65 away: 47.80
i guess u get the picture.
Shyam said | November 30th 2009 @ 5:57pm | Report comment
I don’t think it was blatantly wrong as you suggest. Until recently he did have a slightly better average overseas than at home.
Harsh said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:07pm | Report comment
Greg Russel, you claim that pitches are laid to suit Sachin. But you completely ignore the fact that Sachin average while playing overseas is the same as his home average. In fact his average in australia in nearly 60s! Do you think they lay pitches in australia to suit his style of batting too?
Omer Admani said | November 29th 2009 @ 3:15pm | Report comment
I agree with you. In fact I rate Ponting and Dravid both above Tendulkar. Dravid has played fantastic innings, Laxman has been a fine matchwinner.
This is how I rate the players I have seen (since 1990):
Lara
Sehwag
Ponting
Dravid
Tendulkar
Kallis
Ghilcrist
Mohd Yousof
Sangkkara
Inzamam
The above is an ODI analysis by the person. On ODI basis alone, Tendulkar is the greatest. As a test player, I have my reservations about putting him at number 5 there, the reason being, his perennial inability to win matches. I don’t buy into the line of view that he has been unlucky over two decades. Tendulkar’s record against Mcgrath, Pollock, W&W leaves a lot to be desired. Unfortunately, his average props against Aus because he has fed off Lee. Hard as it may be to swallow, after Mcgrath’s retirement, Australia’s bowling is nowhere near as it used to be. Lee averages in the 50s, 60, and 70s in the subcontient and he has been average-good inside Australia. Lee has been a much better one day bowler than a test bowler.
Tendulkar has only 2 double-hundreds minus Zimbabwe and Bangladesh. Lara has 7 double hundreds without Zimbabwe and Bangladesh, incidentally, against the top bowling teams. Lara has a 300. Lara also has a 400.
Lara has played matchwinning innings of high quality, has hit double centuries against Mcgrath to win matches, his 153*, his 200s have come against Mcgrath. Lara has stood out in contests against an Australian line-up with Mcgrath from either team, Tendulkar hasn’t even outshone his own teamates, such as Dravid and Laxman (Dravid is the most underated player in world cricket).
Lara has made a much higher percentage of his team’s score than Tendulkar. Above all, Lara has won matches against an Australian side with Glenn Mcgrath playing. He was a much more destructive batsman.
The above analysis (if the criterion is used for test matches) by the person doesn’t account for bowling quality, the type of analysis for used for the matchwinning capacity of a player is shallow– consider that Lara has 3 innings, the only batsman to have so, which are in Wisden’s top 15 innings of all time.
yaanni said | December 14th 2009 @ 3:47am | Report comment
“That said, Tendulkar lost quite a bit of my respect when he lied in the Bollywood inquiries in order to protect his good friend Harbhajan (and that is fact, not opinion).”
You got anything to prove this fact? Come come, now please don’t shy away. I urge you to come up with some link, with some irrefutable evidence regarding this. Please don’t mention some link that ultimately draws its content from Gilchrist’s book. Get me some other source of this rather cavalier scandalous remark that you made.
You were mentioning of your correspondences with Roebuck in these matters and you also mentioned that Roebuck sort of ended up agreeing with you bout a few things. While it was yours and his own private discussion, that Gilchrist name there surprised me a bit. But again, thats just my own little opinion so never mind that.
Craig said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:28am | Report comment
Doesn’t this (a series of articles by people saying Tendulkar is the greatest) just go somewhat towards proving that Tendulkar can be described as “over-rated”? It disproves nothing of what the author has attempted to do, which is disprove a common or repeated assertion with straight out cold hard statistics.
ABH said | November 26th 2009 @ 3:32pm | Report comment
But craig…Ive shown u loads of stats too!! pls peruse below.
Craig said | November 30th 2009 @ 11:16am | Report comment
and the stats show him to be an incredibly gifted cricketer. But no-one is doubting this, only that he is overated….i.e. he is not the clear-cut best player of his generation, and he is most certainly not a divine being.
ren said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:25pm | Report comment
my conclusion exactly. im starting to be amused by the bckering and stat throwing, selection of detail as well.
Philip Antony said | November 25th 2009 @ 3:40am | Report comment
Hi Turf…..You do sound like Ian Chappells Son in law…hahaha just kidding…with not full heart ..he always had to say .that Tendulkar is Lucky…Yes Tendulkar is to Lucky to score 30k.. in International cricket- No one is Lucky if he can be in the game for 20 year and score so many runs ..He is a special talent to be celebrated …and to get to the place were No other Indian Cricketer would be able to get in such a short time is huge thing..The Centuries he scored under the circumstances…the way he batted when everyone said that Tendulkar is finsihed and the way he conducts himself…..Telll you wat mate…He is Next to Brad Man
DT said | November 25th 2009 @ 6:15am | Report comment
Truf – hope you have your flame suit on. I get a little frustrated at the Tendulkar fanboys who can’t accept that maybe there are other good batsmen around. Not taking anything away from him, I think he’s brilliant but it’s got to the point where you can’t praise another batsmen without the Tendulkar army attacking.
Philip, that scoring system doesn’t have much credibility given that Bevan is ranked number 6 and Symonds at 13.
Philip Antony said | November 25th 2009 @ 7:08am | Report comment
Bevan was a solid player..none ever replaced or will replace him…abt Symmo…he himself dunno wat to play…cricket or rugby…or fishing or wether to go to pub..haaaa
I am not rating tendulkar as only the finest and the best, yes there are many others..but out of that he stands out …Ponting commented on Sachin….He sets the benchmark and rest of us guys try and do our best…what does that mean ??? still thinks that he is over rated? You will see for sure when Tendulkar retires he will go down in history as next best to Bradman
Brett McKay said | November 25th 2009 @ 7:37am | Report comment
Truf, your stats and metrics kind of support your arguement, but I know what I’ve seen, and that is that Tendulkar and Ponting are the best batsmen of the last 30 years (probably followed by Lara, but I’m not a fan). Tendulkar’s record will stand the test of time, and it’s quite possible that in those stats and metrics where he is outrated by other players, that his team-mates have done equally well, and in effect have “taken runs off him” (Dravid, Ganguly, Laxman, Sehwag for eg).
And anyway, it’s not as if Tendulkar has made the best part of 30000 International runs by nicking everything between Gully and 3rd slip. He can bat a bit…
Fisher Price said | November 25th 2009 @ 7:37am | Report comment
Tendulkar scored a lot of runs against stronger early and mid-90s attacks.
He’s not one of those flat-track bullies who has thrived thereafter.
SouthernWaratah said | November 25th 2009 @ 8:19am | Report comment
Its always a dangerous area doubting an Indian batsman’s ability, every Indian fan comes out of the wood work and starts abusing the author and defending India’s pride, even accusing people of racism. Mike Atherton has just added some constructive criticism to Tendulkar’s career in his article posted on the times on line site and suggests that his longevity was aided but protective gear – helmets, chest & arm guard.
I like this article as it adds some stats to how great a batsman he was, Ather’s article was merely an opinion and the Indian fans have given him a flogging in the comments section.
One point of note when talking about playing In India; Gavaskar was never given out LBW when playing a Test there.
davido said | November 25th 2009 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
Re Gavaskar, not at all surprised.
Re Indian player criticism, not sure but I think Truf was more about how some players are not getting the credit they deserve. Also, about how the media tends to back one horse only. Tell me if i am wrong Truf.
Rajeev said | November 26th 2009 @ 7:53am | Report comment
Come on guys: there’s no scope for lazy (and false) comments like these with StatsGuru being around.
Away: Gavaskar has 7 lbws out of 97 dismissals in 106 innings (this includes the famous “lbw” b Lillee in Melbourne, which can take its place next to Tendulkar’s shoulder-bw off McGrath as priceless samples of umpiring down under before neutral umpires became the norm).
Home: Gavaskar has 10 lbws off 101 dismissals in 108 innings.
So that makes his rate of lbws at home slightly higher than away (9.9% vs 7.2%)
Of course, it’s clear that Aussie bowlers growing up on home umpiring in the day expected every time the ball gets past the bat to count as a dismissal
, but stats tell a different story. Gavaskar not getting out lbw at home is pure bullshit (apologies for my French).
ABH said | November 25th 2009 @ 4:12pm | Report comment
Nah, not really. Try an article criticising Ponting and see the Aussies jump. Or Lara and the West Indians for that matter.
Anyway, if you have the time you could look up some of my other comments. getting boring……….
Jameswm said | November 25th 2009 @ 8:43am | Report comment
This line sums up for me how Growden approaches his rugby writing.
“In modern society, the media are the new priests. They pronounce on all manner of things with the air of being the ultimate authority”
SouthernWaratah said | November 25th 2009 @ 8:53am | Report comment
I use to work in the Media, with Journalists every day. Some of them reported the facts, others would beat it up and some were of the opinion that their opinion counted.
davido said | November 25th 2009 @ 12:26pm | Report comment
‘of the opinion that their opinion counted’ — hilarious! Sounds a bit like me really.
JamesB said | November 25th 2009 @ 9:17am | Report comment
What about Martin Crowe – he batted at no.3, batted on NZ wickets and had to shoulder an entire teams batting for 10 years, not to mention the injury problems he had.
davido said | November 25th 2009 @ 12:22pm | Report comment
Yep, another guy well underrated.
Tock said | November 25th 2009 @ 10:29am | Report comment
Interesting observations Truf in the same line of thinking I always felt that Kapil Dev was underrated because the vast majority of tests he played were in India where really it is a medium pacers nightmare.
PA the numbers are interesting re ODI is there same for tests which I think was thrust of Trufs article.
Must confess always loved watching Tendulkar and Lara and dont care to split them as i have watched both play wonderful innings under pressure. For some reason I just dont get the same kick out of watching Ponting or Kallis bat but that does not mean that they too are not great players. All I hope is that there is another lara or Tendulka around the the corner and preferably playing for Australia
davido said | November 25th 2009 @ 11:26am | Report comment
The only real measure is in entertainment value. And that is very personal. For me, Viv Richards was the best.
Vented Relief said | November 25th 2009 @ 4:27pm | Report comment
Totally agree there, although maybe he can be described as the most dominating player of his generation. Closely followed by Jayasuriya, Hayden, Gilchrist and Pieterson from their respective generations.
Jameswm said | November 25th 2009 @ 11:39am | Report comment
I do think there is something to the theory that a lot of Tendulkar’s runs were scored on slow and low Indian wickets that suited his style. You’d think at least half his tests were there.
Australia by contrast has a couple of seamer’s wickets, a road and a spinner’s deck.
Dave1 said | November 25th 2009 @ 3:13pm | Report comment
Where are the Australian Seamers wickets?
ABH said | November 25th 2009 @ 4:51pm | Report comment
Actually Tendulkars away record is better than his home record.
As regards “slow,low” pitches in India I suggest you check out how well Ponting and Lara have fared in India.
andrew said | November 28th 2009 @ 7:50pm | Report comment
Ponting and Lara didn’t grow up playing on them.
Shyam said | November 30th 2009 @ 6:20pm | Report comment
On the same token, did Tendulkar grow up on Australian wickets to have an average of 58 there? Can we then agree that Tendulkar adapted to different pitches better than Lara or Ponting? When you compare batsmen, wouldn’t you take into consideration there adaptiveness to different kinds of pitches? Between Lara, Ponting and Tendulkar, who would you pick to play in all sorts of conditions (includes pitches, crowds, weather and state of the game) against any kind of bowling attack? My choice would be Tendulkar because he has a proven track record. In case of Lara and Ponting, I cannot be sure because they have not shown they can perform in the subcontinent as well they do elsewhere.
davido said | November 25th 2009 @ 11:39am | Report comment
Three points made by Truf I agree with:
A) I agree that Kallis is well underrated.
B) This is a fascinating stat — ‘Indeed over EVERY single comparable Ten Year period Ponting has scored more runs than Tendulkar’ If this is true then surely Ponting is better than Tendulkar!? Truf you did not point out that Ponting averages over 60 batting at no.3
C) Indian and Sri Lankan grounds are designed or are naturally perfect for big big scores. Just look at the recent run festival 1500+ runs!
ABH said | November 25th 2009 @ 4:32pm | Report comment
So easy to manipulate stats. as mentioned in another comment.
1)Till 01/01/2003: The big 3 :SRT 8811@ 57.6 31 hun, BCL 7572@49.5 18 hun; Pont 4246 @ 48.8 14 hun.
2) After mid 2007 .When Tendulkar started getting an injury free run again he again trumps Ponting,Dravid etc.
So, it is essentially ONLY from 2003-07 That not only Ponting ( but EVERY fit Tom, dick and Hussey) piled on easy runs.
Now you know…….
davido said | November 25th 2009 @ 8:17pm | Report comment
It seems like you are picking and choosing your years to compare.
Over the entire length of Ponting’s career he has scored more runs than Tendulkar – 11345 to 10434. That is a simple fact. He has done it:
1. with a higher average.
2. mostly as captain – unlike Tendulkar.
3. at no.3 unlike Tendulkar who plays at the more protected no.4
4. on less friendly batsman pitches unlike Tendulkar.
5. winning way more man of the match awards then Tendulkar.
6. with a greater number of INJURYs
It seems straightforward to me. Ponting is better than Tendulkar. Hands down.
ABH said | November 25th 2009 @ 8:37pm | Report comment
LOL. oh no , i am not picking and chosing.
He has played some 20 innings more with 5 NO more and avgs. 00.40 more , so he is better hands down?
are you serious.
and im certainly NOT picking and chosing. 2003/05/06 were Tendulkars worst injury ridden years. In these years itself ponting scored huge runs , disorting the overall picture.
Now again, if ONLY ponting had scored silly runs in the period we may well have said that sure there is “something about ponting”……..but when some 30 other batsmen all have the best years of their careers…and ALL outscore and avg tendulkar?!
You may prefer ponting….but as far as pure batsmanship is concerned tendulkar is simply the better batsman. ..something which ponting himself (no less) would second immediately.
davido said | November 25th 2009 @ 8:42pm | Report comment
You cannot just remove Tendulkar’s worst 3 years and then compare those best years with other peoples average years.
I havent looked it up but why dont you remove Ponting’s worst 3 years and compare it then?
As to the assertion that ‘everyone’ has piled on runs. I am sorry but what matters is who piles on more. Thus it is a relative measure. In that case Ponting still scores more runs than everyone else over the same period. And he still averages more.
So on those factors alone he is a better batsman. If you consider the other factors I mentioned then he is a much better batsman. Have you considered just how much of an advantage playing 41% of matches to a draw is? I dont know but im thinking Ponting has played less than 10% draws.
It may be an INCONVENIENT TRUTH but there is no doubt on the figures as they stand now, that Ponting is the better batsman.
ABH said | November 25th 2009 @ 10:56pm | Report comment
phew. actually if you look another post i have removed pontings worst years on tendulkars scores. right below here somewhere.
the point is not “removing” scores. the point is that it is very easy to play tricks with numbers. for eg. i say lets take a “10 year period” , in pontings career starting 1995/6 obviously tendulkars injury years 2003/05/06 will figure in ANY 10 year period.
so, for eg ive taken 3 yr periods and “proved” tendulkar was better for 9? capische?
again, to stress….the only thing you have going for you is that if you seriously believe that some 30 batsmen were all “better” than tendukar for 3/4 yrs, then fine.
the point is that in those 3 yrs ponting (AND just everybody) scored mega runs …it is these 3 yrs which distort the whole picture.
In any case if you take the 90s , tendulkar is far ahead of all other batsmen.lara included. he avgs almost 60 in a period when only 2 others avg.50+.
if you have seen cricket or have some knowledge of cricket in the 90s you would know that basically a run scored in the 90s was worth more than one in the 2000s. how would you account for that?
just hammering on about some random stats reveals a fundamental lack of understanding of batting/sport.
Practically all cricket observers in the know from woodcock,benaud down to the laras,waughs,ponting himself….all clearly have tendulkar as the best…surely they have a better understanding of batting and the game itself than u and me?
ABH said | November 25th 2009 @ 11:31pm | Report comment
added another comment below….about stock gains….sort of sums up what im trying to say.
sandeip said | November 26th 2009 @ 3:38am | Report comment
dude@”"” You cannot just remove Tendulkar’s worst 3 years and then compare those best years with other peoples average years.!!”"”
can’t believe you said that. that says Tendulkar had about 17 best years and the other people had some 12-13 average years in which they outscored him. really?!
Shyam said | November 30th 2009 @ 6:49pm | Report comment
Davido: There is enough justification to exclude the 3 years as shown by ABH. Tendulkar did suffer a string of injuries during that period and even when he did play he was not 100% fit. By sheer coincidence, that period happened to be the most productive for most batsmen. If you include this period when comparing Tendulkar with his contemporaries it would merely be a statistical comparison and not an analysis.
Craig said | November 26th 2009 @ 12:00pm | Report comment
no, you are picking and choosing.
Dave1 said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:18pm | Report comment
http://www.cricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/433868.html
Test cricket in the last two decades Decade Tests 700+ scores RPO Bat Average % of draws
2000s 452 8 3.20 34.08 24
1990s 347 1 2.86 31.64 35
Overall 1932 16 2.80 31.90 35
U2 said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:53am | Report comment
Let me try to add some balance to your points:
Also, Punter had a fantastic team to back him up, unlike Tendulkar who was dragging the weight of an awful team for much of the 90s (till the arrival of Dravid and Ganguly).
1. True, agreed.
2. Not Tendulkar’s fault he wasn’t captain. His batting record as captain was not awful by any standards, but the Indian cricket system goes hand in hand with politics and officials with inflated egos. Be glad Ponting did not have to deal with that
3. From the start of Tendulkar’s career until 2008 (19 years later), India never had a settled opening pair of batsmen, let alone a great duo (Sehwag-Gambhir are now settling into an excellent pair.) Walking in at scores like 30/2 and attempting a rescue with Dravid was the basically the norm of things from 1997-2007. Do you seriously think Ponting had a tougher time batting behind Hayden-Langer?
4. Sure, scores in India are, on average, higher than in SA and Aus. But the fact that there are so many more results in Australia has a lot more to do with the Aussies having a brilliant bowling attack in the 90s and earlier this decade. Can you look at Ponting’s awful record in India and console him with stories of how the pitches are “batting-friendly”?
5. Just look back a month at the 175 Tendulkar scored against the Aussies in the Hyderabad ODI. Is it really his fault the team did not win that game? Sure, he was Man of the Match.. but in test matches, a brilliant hundred is far more likely to go ignored when your team’s poor bowling attack fails to get you a win.
6. Agreed.
Now, an additional point: why did Ponting play fewer games and fewer years than Tendulkar? I don’t think it’s because Tendulkar decided to pick himself for the national team when he was 16. It was because he was a prodigy and was much better than the mediocre batsmen playing for India at the time. Don’t chastize him for having to carry the burden of a weaker team and the impossible expectations of a billion people for 20 years.
Craig said | November 26th 2009 @ 12:05pm | Report comment
point 3 – Ponting never had a bloke batting ahead of him at three nicknamed “The Wall”.
J said | November 26th 2009 @ 2:14pm | Report comment
I am Indian and firmly believe that Tendulkar is overrated. Sachin was a brand carefully nurtured by Gavaskar, Shastri & Co. and taken care by the media. Dravid is India’s best test batsman ever. Go through this analysis if you still don’t believe me. http://www.holdingwilley.com/thehwreport/
Vijay said | November 27th 2009 @ 4:57am | Report comment
Here’s your HoldingWilley myth busted –
http://perceptz.blogspot.com/2009/02/is-rahul-dravid-indias-greatest-ever.html
Eni said | November 27th 2009 @ 7:10am | Report comment
But Ponting did had Hayden and Langer to see of whatever shine the new ball had for most part of his career. You might say he bats after Watson right now but for how many matches it has been?? So the arguement that Ponting bats at No.3 is not very valid.
Why do u want to leave away the quality of the opposition bowling in this?? Who has ponting played against?? Mcgrath? Warne? Ponting is a good cricketer having an extended run of form. Thats about it.
Dave1 said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:22pm | Report comment
it is Tendulkar’s fault he wasn’t captain.
http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/content/story/108728.html
“……… The little master announced that he would be stepping down as captain after the two Tests…..”
davido said | November 28th 2009 @ 7:00pm | Report comment
I disagree with point 2.
Tendulkar won 4 matches and lost 9 as captain. I would suggest that that record and the possible adverse affect on his batting of being captain had a good deal too do with why he didnt captain for longer. Politics may also have played a part… who knows.
Ponting did have a good team to back him up but still captaincy is a burden he has had to have for a lot longer.
I also agree with your last point. The reason Ponting didnt make the team when he was 16 because the Australian team was quite strong. By comparison the indian team was not as good as it is now when Tendulkar joined. Would Tendulkar get into the Indian team today at 16? I think not.
Youre very last point about the expectations of a billion people is also true. But that works both ways too.
Subra said | November 28th 2009 @ 6:40am | Report comment
………. and
1) NOT having to worry about batting collapses if he gets out
2) NOT having to worry about their bowling bailing them out if batting collapses.
Tendulkar has often played with a feeling of
“If I get out cheap, the team loses”.
Accounting for this is far more easily done subjectively than with figures alone. Perhaps some one can come up with an analysis whether batsmen tend to perform better in winning teams or losing teams.
It is when talking in this sense, that Tendulkar is generally given more regard than just his numbers.
For a player of such immense achievement, it is ironic that when being compared to his peers, he is still perhaps subconsciously rated on a “what might have been” basis, with his team being such a let down most of the time.
I am an Indian and my favorite player is Ponting (Tendulkar is way down for me because he is no longer that attractive to watch) – he dictates the tempo of matches from No.3 unlike a Dravid or a Kallis who are more defensive, and is lovely to watch. In a good team, I will take Ponting any day, but in a not-so-good team, I guess Tendulkar will edge it.
These are two modern geniuses, mastering the domains that fate has dealt, we can only speculate what they might have done if they were born into the other domains; we have no way to tell and we should be grateful for it, for we can enjoy both their feats without prejudice.
yaanni said | December 14th 2009 @ 1:17am | Report comment
Provide a link or else give some info bout the injuries suffered by Ponting so far.
Craig said | November 26th 2009 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
i’m confused…..so manipulating stats is a good thing, or a bad thing?
ABH said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:34pm | Report comment
good question. it is neither. it is just a “thing”
any half arsed sports fan will give stats their due only when placed in propah context.
simply dishing out blind stats and then claiming you have “proved” something is the preserve of academicians and nerds…
not any one who has actually ever held a bat, or played a sport.
thats what ive been attempting to show.
Craig said | November 30th 2009 @ 11:26am | Report comment
time honoured and accepted statistics will suit me over those where it is acceptable to remove a player’s worse three seasons.
ABH said | December 2nd 2009 @ 11:04pm | Report comment
reply below
ohtani's jacket said | November 25th 2009 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
You forgot point number 4 — HE’S NOT AUSTRALIAN.
ABH said | November 25th 2009 @ 3:34pm | Report comment
Copying in a bit of reply to someone else which i think is generally applicable:
Another thing you want to be careful about when using stats: Ponting,Dravid,Kallis etc were fortunate to have a greater “density” of test matches when at their peaks so filling their boots silly between around 2003-07. The fact that this was perhaps the easiest time in history for batting is easily checked- simply check the stats for the top 25-30 batsmen- they will blow your mind. Infact ANY fit ,reasonably good batsman had the BEST consecutive years of their careers in this patch . Including guys like lara, inzy etc. Lara now has his BEST consecutive years from the age of 34 on!
As rgds.dazzling innings or what have you that if very much in the eye of the beholder. During the 90s Tendulkar carried the team- he practically pulled up the other players up in to a higher level-demanding excellence. Only from around 2001 on was the Indian team even half good.
As rgds. bowlers surprisingly I would not put TOO much emphasis on their opinions as compared to other batsmen!
ESPECIALLY when comparing supreme right and left handers like Tendulkar and Lara.( perhaps ok while comparing on either right or left handers)- this is because then factors like angles ,biomechanics etc start to play a HUGE part. For eg. simply check out Muralis record against ANY good leftie.
Another thing you conveniently forget is that if India had not got so infatuated by ODIs god alone knows what Tendulkars Test stats would have been with proportionately less injuries etc.So, ALL factors have to be taken holistically. Starting from an intitial bias and then picking and choosing stats or other factore will OBVIOUSLY lead your right back to your starting point.
I could go on- but whats the point?
Eni said | November 27th 2009 @ 7:13am | Report comment
It would be interesting to note how many of Ponting’s runs actually came against England’s bowling which has been hopeless except for the 2005 ashes series. If they wanna play down sachin scoring in the ‘HELPFUL’ Indian conditions, then we shud pbly leave out all the runs ponting accumulated against the english.
Dave1 said | November 25th 2009 @ 3:38pm | Report comment
There were no easy runs for Ponting in the 2005 ashes, which was in the middle of 2003-2007.
ABH said | November 25th 2009 @ 4:11pm | Report comment
Ah,sure. I think you know what I mean. Sure you are going to have the hard series here and there. But in general please go through the stats. There are some 25-30 batsmen who have got more runs,hundreds etc what have you…in such obscene numbers…it is as if a half good, fit batsman simply had to pad up. Certainly the easiest time in cricket history for batting. No way you can even compare it to even the 90s ,when just 3 (THREE!) batsmen who played through the 90s average 50+.
Some 30 batsmen avg 50+ in that period.
IMportantly- I am NOT knocking Ponting!
Ponting and lara are obviously all time greats. It is simply that for all their merits they have clear and distinct weaknesses.
Which Tendulkar doesnt. So, in a way it is simple- you have 3 great batsmen, with more or less equal strengths. 2 with clear weaknesses, 1 with none- who would you have at the best?
Craig said | November 26th 2009 @ 12:09pm | Report comment
so can we clarify……2003-2007 were easy, except the 2005 Ashes, and NO, we’re not picking and choosing statistics to suit our argument?
ABH said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:22pm | Report comment
aint that what everyone ,including the author is doing? thats exactly my point.
Craig said | November 30th 2009 @ 11:30am | Report comment
no, the author used career statistics, he did not pick and choose to omit certain performances, only you have.
ABH said | December 2nd 2009 @ 5:59pm | Report comment
BS:
Career stats can only be used appropriately when comparing two players who debuted at about the same time: especially in a sport like cricket where things have changed drastically from the 90s to the 2000s.
You cannot compare overall stats of a guy who is still at his peak to someone whose stats have gotten hammered as he entered the twilight of his career. that is just stupid.
I have repeatedly gone on ad nauseum about the much greater difficulty of run scoring in the 90s. Even if you have not watched cricket in the 90s, the stats are an obvious indicator.
I have again repeatedly said that at a similar stage of pontings career (after approx 14yrs)
Tendulkar was well clear of all batsmen.
The other guys the author is comparing tendulkar with (including ponting) are basically 2000s players. i.e they filled their boots in the 2000s.
Again if you have followed cricket you would know that tendulkar was seriously injured for a few years in there (03/05/06 and actually there was a strong probability that he may actually retire)
so, for 14 yrs this guy is by far the best in the world. ..ponting and co. are all in the same mix.
so -if you want to compare -compare guys who debuted at the same time and under the same conditions-
here, you are comparing guys like ponting who have not yet fully entered the “decline” stage of their careers like tendulkar- and so their overall stats have still not been pulled down. also ,ponting etc had the immense good fortune of a greater “density” of matches in the mid 2000s ,in ideal batting conditions and at their peaks.
so ,unless you are comparing players who debuted at the same time (or at least wait till ponting and co. finish their careers) then ofcourse it is picking and chosing.
ABH said | December 2nd 2009 @ 7:20pm | Report comment
ABH said | December 2nd 2009 @ 7:21pm | Report comment
To explain:
The author has taken “Picked” Time “t1″ which is “as of now”…this works out to about 14 yrs into pontings career and 20yrs into tendulkars.
I have simply taken Time “t2″ which was an equivalent 14yrs into tendulkars career.
at that point tendulkar was clearly regarded by all and sundry as the best batsman in the world ,with the stats- avg, runs, hundreds etc well ahead of the pack.
so,
the author has “Picked” time “t1″ for some ridiculously lopsided comparison, I have used time “t2″….capische?
yaanni said | December 14th 2009 @ 1:43am | Report comment
Are you crazy Craig, you mean this author Truf Saya used only the career statics and did not pick and chose to omit certain performances? Did you even read the original article properly?
WOW, each comment from you is like a gem of utter ignorance and grasplessness.
Let’s see it point by point.
1. AVERAGE: He talks bout Sachin’s protected batting position & other’s avg at #3. etc
2. 1000 RUNS PER CALENDAR YEAR: Other’s achieveing their 5 1000 run scoring years faster than Sachin. etc.
3. MOST RUNS IN A TEN YEAR PERIOD: Others scoring more than Sachin in a given 10 year window etc.
4. MAN OF THE MATCH: Others having more man of the matches awards at a higher strike rate.
Apart from this, Truf Saya eliminates from Sachin record:
1. Drawen matches and then re calculates SAchin’s avg etc.
2. MATCHES WHERE TEAMS SCORE GREATER THAN 600 RUNS:
3. GROUND AVERAGES:
In case you hadnt read the original article, I’ve summarised what Truf Saya used as a basis to say that Sachin is over rated. Truf Saya has an opinion and he has full rights of expressing it and he does not himslef mention that he is using the career statistics as the basis. He is clearly picking and chosing something out of it, it may be logical or not but that’s his opinion.
But for you, the author is not pickin and chosing. Only ABH is picking and chosing stuff here. How logical, how very Aussie. I guess the only things you and may be the author picks is nostrils and bum hair.
Craig, typing to argue is not quite the best way of deciding such things esp with a fella as smart and logical as you. I wish I could meet you over snacks sometime to conclude these things. Trust me, you would have no arguments left to argue with, not even the illogical ones. You could bring Dave1 & others too, I will ask Ashtung & ABH to come with me.
ABH said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:22pm | Report comment
aint that what everyone ,including the author is doing? thats exactly my point. posted another reply below.
saurabh somani said | November 29th 2009 @ 3:45pm | Report comment
right. so he had five difficult Tests in a 5 year period. way to prove your point dave.
Benjamin Conkey said | November 25th 2009 @ 3:59pm | Report comment
Ahh the overrated debate. The Daily Telegraph claims Michael Clarke is overrated because of a ridiculous survey which incidently 14% of the population thought he was. Hardly a majority. And also it’s a stupid question. “Which of these players are overrated?” I didn’t see the option that you could tick that said “none of them are”.
Anyway with that vent of frustration out of the way..onto Tendulkar.
How can he be overrated if he averages 56 against Australia…58 in Australia…and 54 away from Home?
Brett McKay said | November 25th 2009 @ 4:01pm | Report comment
..and Conks, when he’s scored damn near 30000 Interntaional runs?!?
Dave1 said | November 25th 2009 @ 4:43pm | Report comment
What about Stuart Clark, averages 44 in the ashes and people want him in the test side.
Or last season Bracken has one of the worst strike rates in shield cricket and people are ringing up talk back saying she should be in the test side.
Craig said | November 26th 2009 @ 12:13pm | Report comment
is anyone suggesting that Tendulkar is not a great batsman, or just suggesting that the claims to divinity some attribute to his batting are overated?
Personally, i just think he’s a wonderful batsman, but i don’t find him a clear-cut better batter than Ponting and Lara, and for that matter rate him behind Viv Richards standards.
As for overated, i know this…..his character is massively overated given the events that transpoired in the Monkey-gate affair.
Shyam said | November 30th 2009 @ 7:57pm | Report comment
Craig: “As for overated, i know this…..his character is massively overated given the events that transpoired in the Monkey-gate affair.”
You mean the same way Ponting’s character took a beating when he claimed a catch after he “grounded” it? Sure, may be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bwn-uAWdoQ
Craig said | December 3rd 2009 @ 3:12pm | Report comment
No, Ponting’s character has never been over-glorified the way Tendulkar’s has.
AL said | November 25th 2009 @ 4:25pm | Report comment
I think this article reveals a fundamental lack of understanding of sport, particularly team sport.
I could quite easily “prove” that Diego Maradona was “overrated” as compared to say “Pele”,”Garrincha”, or even “Zidane” etc. using some filtered stats.
Don’t you people actually ever actually Watch sport?!
Anyone who can even half jokingly state that a Sachin Tendulkar (or Diego Maradona) is overrated doesn’t know a thing about cricket/sport.
Craig said | November 26th 2009 @ 12:15pm | Report comment
wow, AL makes a good point….he’s right and we’re all wrong….end of argument.
In fact, i think that’s the end of the internet.
Bye
Dave1 said | November 26th 2009 @ 3:55pm | Report comment
What sort of Scoccer stats are there? Its not like baseball
Al said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:37pm | Report comment
Alright ,since you asked for it, here’s an eg:
Maradona (appearances/goals): club -588/307 ;int : 91/34,
Platini (appearances/goals) : club - 580/312 ;int : 72/41
Clearly Maradona is “overrated” as compared to Platini.
Now , of course, I don’t care to hear about nonsense like skills, talent, “magic”, what the rest of the team was like ,how he fits into the team, glues the team and all other such rubbish. Or for that matter extraneous nonsense like player views etc
I have proved conclusively with “cold,hard stats” that Maradona was indeed overrated.
Similarly, I think nonsense like skills, type of pitches, rest of team, bowling faced, ability against all types of bowling, ability to vary the pace of innings, match saving innings, etc etc is again all rubbish. After you have cold,hard stats don’t you?
andrew said | November 28th 2009 @ 8:02pm | Report comment
what about hand-balls?
Al said | November 29th 2009 @ 4:25pm | Report comment
damn, and here i was thinking we were talking about “cold ,hard stats”
ABH said | November 25th 2009 @ 6:36pm | Report comment
Another example of how easy it is to manipulate stats:
From Pontings debut:
3 yr spans :
08/12/95 – 08/12/98
Tendulkar : 2110 @ 57.0
Ponting : 1194 @ 38.5
08/12/98 – 08/12/01
Tendulkar : 2607 @ 65.2
Ponting : 1887@ 49.7
08/12/01 – 08/12/04
Tendulkar : 2395@52.1
Ponting : 3173@67.1
08/12/04 – 08/12/07
Tendulkar : 1694 @ 42.8
Ponting : 3254 @ 74.0
08/12/07 – date
Tendulkar :1628 @ 52.5
Ponting : 1837 @ 42.7
So, one could turn around the argument and say that in their overlapping 15 year career so far Ponting has been better for 6 of those years (in the 2000s) and Tendulkar has been better for 9. Again the 01-04 yrs period includes Tendulkars injury screwed year 2003 – 153@17.
The above obviously include Tendulkars injury/surgery years : 2003- 153@17, 2005 – 444 @ 44.4 ,2006- 267@24.3.
Now- compare these pathetic year stats to the other big boys and you will see how these three years which Tendulkar lost purely due to injuries COMPLETELY distort the overall picture.
As I said if you start with a “conclusion” or other bias then it is relatively easy to pick, choose and filter stats to support your initial stance. Making it magically appear that you have “proven” something.
Craig said | November 26th 2009 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
what, your other examples of manipulating stats weren’t enough?
Freud of Football said | November 25th 2009 @ 6:42pm | Report comment
Is he overrated? Is Bradman overrated? How many of the crowd here have seen Bradman in the flesh? I’d hesitate a guess and say none, as such we go by his legend, his stats etc. and we wouldn’t dare claim he is overrated, with an average of 99.94 how could he be, right?
Tendulkar, most of us have seen. His average isn’t pushin 100 and there are a few other batsman around that are pretty handy too.
If you want to ask the question, is he overrated, then forget stats, strike rates and perctanges, how often he wins man of the match etc. That’s not really relevant.
Fact of the matter is he is supremely talented, whether he is the best batsman ever, the best of the last 30 years or only amongst the Top 5 is irrelevant as he is up there with the best and as such, how can he be overrated?
ABH said | November 25th 2009 @ 7:21pm | Report comment
Heres another interesting trick:
Tendulkars worst years since pontings debut : 2003- 153@17, 2005 – 444 @ 44.4 ,2006- 267@24.3.( 1 NO)
Ponting worst years: 1996 :163 @20.7 ,1998: 382 @ 29.4(1 N.O) ,2007: 192@38.4( 1 N.O)
TOTALS , since Pontings debut 08/12/95:
Ponting :11345 @ 55.9 (229 inn , 26 NO)
Tendulkar : 10434 @ 55.5 (209 inn, 21 NO)
So, subtract the runs Ponting made in Tendulkars worst years and vice versa.
You get:
11345-1503-1544-1333=6965 runs
(In 2003/05/06 ponting played 64 inn, 7 NO)
Tendulkar -10434-623-647-776=8388 ( 40 inn,3 NO)
So, one can argue that in their 15 yr overlapping careers Ponting has actually only overshadowed Tendulkar for 3 yrs.
It is simply that the HUGE differential in these 3 years completely and totally distorts the overall picture to an almost circus mirror degree. But, as mentioned it is not ONLY ponting, but just about everyone who piled on runs in this period .
In no other period in batting history (never mind the 90s) will you find a spell when some 30 batsmen avg 50+ and ALL have the best years of their careers simultaneously
Philip Antony said | November 25th 2009 @ 9:02pm | Report comment
Some Aussies think hes the best and some dosent wanna agry to the fact that he has mustered runs all around the world…looks like your one of them..who dosent wanna agree…tat he is the best
OldManEmu said | November 25th 2009 @ 9:04pm | Report comment
Statistics – did someone say lies,and damned lies…….?
Tendulkar is the best batsman I have ever seen. And I speak from considerable beer hazed experience having been to every day’s play of the SCG test match for 27 years. He is a joy to watch, effortless, powerful, fearless, technically correct, and a gentleman.
Give me Tendulkar five time till Sunday over the brilliant destruction of Lara and the brattish steel of Ponting.
Philip Antony said | November 25th 2009 @ 9:05pm | Report comment
Then why would Ponting say abt Tendulkar…that 20 years of career…i would be batting ..in a wheel chair.if u want just have a look…in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sachin_Tendulkar. Abt wats been said and which aussie players think he is the best
You look back at his centuries at perth ..sydney ….double hundred in melbourne..241*…wat abt Sharjah sandstorm?? His recent 175? He is blessed wid ideal physic and a great work ethic …so he had proved a better one than anyone else
Craig said | November 26th 2009 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
and here i was thinking this was about MY opinion ???
brad said | November 25th 2009 @ 9:18pm | Report comment
Tendulkar was in the top 5 before ponting, with Ponting and probbaly after ponting. He has lasted 20years and still been one of the best. If a player were given points at the end of each year for his grid position at the end of the season, the Fact that Tendulkar has been near the top and for many seasons right at the top for his entire 20 years he would outstrip any of the pretenders to the thrown. Ponting could never expect to reach the current heights that Tendulkar is at in his 20th year NEVER. Kallis NEVER Lara NEVER.
Philip Antony said | November 25th 2009 @ 9:21pm | Report comment
Justin…i guess here we are not debating abt avg…of players…Den why is there a Debate when Sir.Don is up there wid 90+????
Justin said | November 25th 2009 @ 9:25pm | Report comment
I dont really follow what you are trying to say… I dont think anyone is debating the Dons spot as the best batsmen of all time.
Philip Antony said | November 25th 2009 @ 9:31pm | Report comment
Justin…i was trying to say that why would you think u have a better opinion in judging Tendulkar? Than Bradman himself???
Did ever Bradman said that Sachin looks like the exact sameway he use to play..His Techniqiue? His Strokes? His stance?? Was this overrated judgement??
Shane warne, Mcgrath,Brett Lee,S.waugh these aussie players would say that he is the best…and you dont even know how to hold a Cricket Bat and you judge tendulkar on the base of some stupid stuff? You Aussies make me laugh mate
Justin said | November 25th 2009 @ 9:38pm | Report comment
PA – suggest you go and back and have a read of what I wrote. Where did I even mention that I knew more the Bradman?
All I did was express my opinion that Kallis is not in the same league as the 3 players most on here are comparing, RT, BL and ST.
I may or may not know how to hold a bat but I think you might be holding one now
ABH said | November 25th 2009 @ 11:27pm | Report comment
Basically a run scored in the 90s was worth much more than a run scored in the 2000s.
A quick check of the two decades will show you that.
Lets put It another way..looking at stock gains for say 15/20 yrs.
What could well happen is that 3 yrs (say 2003/05/06) of outsize performance in a BULL market by several investors may make their total gains for the 15/20 yr period perhaps more than another investor who may have missed out on the bull run for whatever reason ( lets say he was hospitalized in the period and so cashed out).
Obviously tricks such as “an 10 yr span) will include these yrs in a 15 yr career.
But over the 17 other yrs this hospitalized investor may have done steadily better in varying and ALL conditions, including torrid bear runs.
So, does this make the first bunch of investors consistently better?
booyaa said | November 26th 2009 @ 1:03am | Report comment
some interesting stats…did the writer notice though that all the categories that were brought up above the only two names that popped up consistently were tendulkar and ponting. no other name was in all the categories of “achievement” discussed.
also the longevity of his career seems to be cast in a negative way by the writer, whereas if anything, it points to tendulkar’s greatness even more…he’s been able to keep up his output through 20 years to match the top batsmen and is a testament to his professionalism in staying fit and focused. especially in staying focused, where he’s been able to stay at the top of his game inspite of the craze in india around him, so much so that he has to disguise himself when he steps out.
further more, the writer has only analyzed test matches. tendulkar has provided the ODI game with moments that very few have been able to conjure up. and as much as i admit that tests are the premier version of the game, the ODI game stats and achievements can not be ignored.
juzlikedthat said | November 26th 2009 @ 1:07am | Report comment
Some more facts for you
http://www.sachinandcritics.com/sachin_is_a_match_winner.php
booyaa said | November 26th 2009 @ 1:09am | Report comment
btw, excellent points by ABH above about how statistics can be manipulated to prove whatever you want…the truth is in terms of providing highlights and pure and simple cricketing euphoria to viewers, tendulkar has only been matched by lara over the past couple of decades.
Craig said | November 26th 2009 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
i don’t recall too many euphoric highlights from Tendulkar in the 2003 World Cup Final.
Shantanu said | November 26th 2009 @ 2:02am | Report comment
I dont know why people tend to miss one point in Tendulkar Vs Ponting debate.
Tendulkar could play spin with as ridiculous ease as he played fast bowling. You cant name one bowler who made tendulkar his bunny. Warne(Spin), Murali(Spin), Donald(Fast), Mcgrath(Fast) believe that Tendulkar is the best batsman they have bowled to. As for ponting, he is an exceptional player of fast bowling (Majority of his tests have been on fast pitches). But give him a turner with a quality spinner, he is always in a spot of bother! Harbhajan singh made him his bunny in that famous series 2001. Never a spinner has rated Ponting as best batsman ever. So, we know who is a better batsman overall, dont we?
Ramanean said | November 26th 2009 @ 2:27am | Report comment
Averages:
Sangakarra, Kallis and Ponting has better averages -Yes but who can play shots all around the wicket like Sachin???
Ponting –can’t play spin in Indian.. he averages a mere 12 in 10 Test matches in India..
Compared to this Tendulkar has a lower average of only 39…
juzlikedthat said | November 26th 2009 @ 2:34am | Report comment
So true Shantanu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNBBfubigtg
Chinmay said | November 26th 2009 @ 2:35am | Report comment
I think some points are very disputable:
1) Average
Tendulkar’s average is marginally lesser than Pontings, and it can be explained (to some degree) by the fact that Tendulkar spent half his career playing in the days when pitches were not so flat and when there were genuine fast bowlers around.
2) 1000 runs per calender year
I would largely blame the BCCI for this. Example, this year, India are playing in only 6 tests compared to 14 tests Australia are playing. How is Tendulkar supposed to get 1000 runs per calender year if BCCI don’t give him a decent test schedule?
3) Most runs in 10 year period
This is true, but you have to take into consideration that Tendulkar has had a lot of injuries in the last 10 years. His record in the first 10 years of his career was, I think much better and you can’t just ignore that just because his present day competitors were not around then.
4) Man of the matches
Fair point, but in most cases, players on winning teams get the man of the match awards, so not entirely his fault.
5) Playing in India
If batting in India is easy, how do you explain Ponting’s average in India which is 20.85 in 12 matches?
Tendulkar’s average in India, btw is 55.30. His average in Australia (58.53) and England (62) is actually higher than his average in India, which shows where it is more easier to bat. Besides, Tendulkar has scored 19 of his 43 centuries at home (44.186%). Ponting on the other hand has scored 20 of his 38 centuries at home (52.63%). This sort of shows who depends more on home conditions.
And, you haven’t taken into consideration the most important aspect of the Tendulkar’s legend — his record in ODIs where he is, undisputedly the best batsman in the format’s history and which has a lot to do with his fan following.
davido said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:27am | Report comment
I think if you look at average by batting position: Ponting 60+ compared to Tendulkar 56 it is more revealing.
I also think, batting in India is easier. Just because a few players, Ponting included, have not performed well does not mean that the pitches are not better batting pitches.
The points made here about the bowlers faced by Ponting is VALID. He also had the benefit of practising against these bowlers in the nets.
Tarun said | November 26th 2009 @ 3:33am | Report comment
Well said, obviously you would consider Ponting as the greatest, while others wouldnt, you have reasons as do others?
Did you try comparing Ponting performances in India and Sachins performance in India (only for test matches I mean)?
I am sure, Ponting hasnt always played at number three?
I mean stats are like bikinis, what they show is important and what they hide is vital.
As why you compairng just last 10 years?
Charlie Harper said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:38am | Report comment
Another overlooked point..! Who were the best TEST bowlers in the last 12-15 years…?
Warne, McGrath, Walsh, Ambrose, Donald, Kumble, Muralidaran, Wasim Akram …
Ponting never had to face more than half of them and hasn’t fared TOO well with the others… if any it is him who is over-rated
Craig said | November 26th 2009 @ 12:29pm | Report comment
you just named 8 bowlers, of which Ponting had to face 6. That’s more than half.
Justin said | November 26th 2009 @ 12:36pm | Report comment
Oh dear…thats a little embarrassing.
Dave1 said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:24pm | Report comment
Ponting faced all of them except Warne and McGrath
Deepak said | November 30th 2009 @ 11:56pm | Report comment
the question is not how many ponting faced but how well he has done against them?ponting i am sure would have never scored too many runs against wasim waqar ambrose murali because i dont simply remember any one innings where he dominated them.he is avery poor player player of spin thats it nothing more on ponting vs sachin
Dave1 said | December 1st 2009 @ 5:59pm | Report comment
Ponting averaged 57 in the 4 matches he played agaisnt Waqar with 2 centuries and a highest score of 150.
he average 39.71 in matches Ambrose played with 1 century
he averaged 49.25 in matches Wasim played with 1 century and a higest score of 197.
and he averaged 57.20 in the 11 matches hes played against Muralitharan with one century
FameSage said | November 26th 2009 @ 6:48am | Report comment
It’s due to our overt sensitivity as a nation, that Indians rush to defend Tendulkar. However, most articles disputing his greatness are by people trying to piggyback on his fame by whatever means necessary. I am not saying that there are no arguments to the contrary. However, the last time I remember a scene like this was when Gilly was trying to flog his book by making inane points about Tendulkar. It’s all about the money. Fortunately or Unfortunately, all the cricketing money is in India, thats why Gilly, The Roar or other aussies need to anger us, please us or flatter us. Anything but ignore us because that would be financially unwise.
Craig said | November 26th 2009 @ 12:32pm | Report comment
inane?
I hadn’t forgotten what Tendulkar had said and done in the Monkeygate Inquirys before Gilchrist mentioned it in his book.
It was common knowledge at the time.
That a sycophantic media and sycophantic nation of supporters chose to forget about it is hardly Gilchrist’s fault.
Dave1 said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:26pm | Report comment
thes points are not inane, they are valid
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/24/2400825.htm
“………He also claimed Tendulkar changed his story in an appeal conducted by the ICC.
“Tendulkar, who’d said at the first hearing that he hadn’t been able to hear what Harbhajan had said – and he was a fair way away, up the other end (of the pitch), so I’m certain he was telling the truth – now supported Harbhajan’s version that he hadn’t called Symo (Symonds) a ‘monkey’ but instead a Hindi term of abuse that might sound like ‘monkey’ to Australian ears,” Gilchrist said.
“The Indians got him off the hook when they, of all people, should have been treating the matter of racial vilification with the utmost seriousness.”
ABH said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:48pm | Report comment
I think i ve posted a reply above somewhere. covers the sheer scale of aussie hypocrisy involved.
Dave1 said | November 26th 2009 @ 5:02pm | Report comment
Its not hypocrisy, its pretty simple, racism is not allowed. Excuses like “…he started it…” or “….he swore at me…” or “….I don’t tlike him…”.. or “…i dont like what he said…..”….. are not good enough.
Its simple and its been that way since
http://www.curriculum.edu.au/cce/default.asp?id=15305
“…..In 1995, following an ANZAC Day game against Collingwood, Long became the first Indigenous player to highlight racial abuse when he reported offensive language used by an opposition player. The player later apologised to Long. As a result of Long’s actions, the AFL adopted a new rule aimed at stopping racial and religious vilification….”
ABH said | November 26th 2009 @ 6:03pm | Report comment
Oh its so simple. racism is not allowed. but ofcourse you can say what you like about another persons wife, mother,father,oral sex with laras privates etc ad infinitum
this is exactly what i meant by the incredible scale of hypocrisy involved. the sheer scale of hypocrisy would almost be funny if it was not so staggering
Dave1 said | November 26th 2009 @ 6:22pm | Report comment
so racism is not allowed but……….
andrew said | November 28th 2009 @ 8:14pm | Report comment
You call everyone else hypocrites, but you’re making excuses. if it’s ok for Harbhajan to say what he said, stop whining about what others say.
Craig said | November 30th 2009 @ 11:37am | Report comment
not now, but back then, yes that is pretty much the case.
The ICC have since amended the rules…..kinda like letting Murali chuck.
yaanni said | December 14th 2009 @ 2:07am | Report comment
That tells us a lot about the hypocrites some of the Aussies are, esp the cricketers and some here.
What they are trying to say is that:
1.
They are the ones who will stretch the rules to the max, use steel bats, use golf balls, use graphite bats, use under arm bowling ….cos its all under rules mate. But if a Murali has an unconventional bowling action (but not illegal) then even an Aussie umpire will become honest and law abiding.
2.
They are the ones who will sledge and mentally disintegrate the opposition player no matter how honestly and sportingly the game’s been going on, just to suit themselves.
3.
Having started the sledging, they will not mind it if the opposition also does it back but only to the extent the Aussies permit i.e. the opposition can sledge the Aussies no more than what they think is fit for consumption for them.
4.
If anyone from the opposition says something which is not digestible to the Aussies, they are going to make hullo bullo of it and tell everyone how hurt they are. This notwithstanding with the policy that the Aussies themselves have the freedom to say anything to sledge down the opposition no matter how much abusive it may be. Also, it is acceptable for an Aussie cricketer to interpret any remark from the opposition player as a racist remark.
5.
Any pre series agreements is to be honoured, even if the intention behind the agreement is forgotten by the Aussies.
6.
In case of any conflict, the Aussies and only the Aussies have the whole sole right of determining the nature, extent and impact of any event. It does not matter if the event has a bearing on the opposition or their own team. They will be the only judges of any harm caused by anyone to anyone.
7.
Arguments by anyone arguing against their interests are essentially subjective, myopic, rude, hypocritical and above all CLEARLY PREJUDICED & INCORRECT and any supporting material is plain rubbish but any point made by someone in their favour is to be taken at face value even if without any corroboration, his own recent conduct notwithstanding (Michael Clarke’s claimed catch for eg. & Symonds hearing something from Bhajji that the Umpires and the mics failed to pick up).
ABH said | November 26th 2009 @ 7:56pm | Report comment
Just another (!) eg… i remember when slater racially abused murali. and went on for a while.
i think the match ref probably said something to the slater to the effect ” now now, thats not on”…and slater went ” aw i didnt really MEAN anything. im not really a racist u know.heat of the moment kinda thing…”….” yeah yeah i understand…….end of story.
Craig said | November 30th 2009 @ 11:35am | Report comment
when did Slater racially abuse Murali ABH?
Craig said | November 30th 2009 @ 11:45am | Report comment
what Australian hypocrisy ABH? An Australian cricketer has in the past been found guilty by the ICC of racial vilification….Darren Lehmann…..though i may be wrong, it may have been Cricket Australia that found him guilty. As i recall, Lehmann, his teammates, and certainly every Aussie cricket fan i know accepted the decision and agreed he deserved to be suspended.
Regardless, the issue at hand is one of Tendulkar being less than honest and inciting an international incident. The reports of the day indicated that India’s threat to return home (a dummy spit ranked 2nd to none) was instigated by Tendulkar. Tendulkar changed his testimony, this too is on record. This is all relevant, as it is not just Tendulkar’s on-field performances that can be stated as being overated, but also his character, given the sycophancy so often displayed by his admirers.
KGB said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:18pm | Report comment
Why do you find it so difficult to consider the possibility that Harbhajan could actually have said “teri maanki” to Symonds and not “monkey”? It is one of the most common abuses around, so much so that people who’ve lived in college dorms use it once every 5 sentences in India. As for Tendulkar’s credibility, how about Mr. Clarke, who was cited by the judge as a “particularly slippery character”? And as far as racism is concerned, let’s not forget Darren Lehmann punching a dressing room wall and calling the Lankans “fucking monkeys”. It’s rich when Australian sportsmen start talking about gentlemanliness and manners.
Dave1 said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:17pm | Report comment
Darren lehmann was suspended for 5 games and there was no cover up.
and if that indian word was said why wasnt it mentioned to the appeal?
ren said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:32pm | Report comment
why do you find it so difficult to consider the more likely possibillity that he actually did call him a monkey. dont forget he was found guilty. and he isn’t exactly a spotless character, ive never heard of anyone hitting a teammate in any sport, let alone cricket. and a slap too, gutless
yaanni said | December 13th 2009 @ 4:50pm | Report comment
“why do you find it so difficult to consider the more likely possibillity ….”Well, how is it more likely?
“dont forget he was found guilty “…. And how come you say he was found guilty? By whom?
Are you talking bout the verdict Match Referee Mike Procter gave? Well, his thought process was entirely questionable. He was like, I believe one group is telling the truth (The Aussies) and so Harbhajan is guilty. Well, he ignored a lot of other points.
“he isn’t exactly a spotless character”…………Is Andrew Symonds a saint?
“ive never heard of anyone hitting a teammate in any sport”………Really, are you this ignorant? Or did you deliberately chose not to mention someone called Zizou?
Dave1 said | December 20th 2009 @ 3:16pm | Report comment
What points did Proctor ignore?
andrew said | November 28th 2009 @ 8:16pm | Report comment
yaanni said | December 13th 2009 @ 4:34pm | Report comment
Dave, you mention this article as if it is a gospel. You just seem to blindly believe that if Gilchrist said that Sachin lied during the hearing then it must be true.Why? Why do you conveniently overlook the fact that of the people who gave an account of what had happened, one of them was Michael Clarke, someone whose honest behavior and sportsmanship were to be seen when he got out and when he claimed that catch of Ganguly. A man of such dubious character is claiming he heard Harbhajan calling Symonds a Monkey, why should he be believed. The other was Mathew Hayden, who is no darling of Harbhajan, one was Ricky Ponting who himself heard nothing but came into the picture cos he was the captain and so Symonds went to to him to tell him about this incident.
None of these was lying but Sachin was…..WOW. That when he was the one closest to hear them all and all others were quite far, at the slips.
Gilchrist himself has been a person who used Golf balls for extra power in a world cup final and yet you just have to believe all of him quite readily……amazing.
Dave1 said | December 20th 2009 @ 3:15pm | Report comment
Well then why didnt Sachin say something at he original hearing if hewas the one closest to hear them
Im saying that and Gilchirst said it
Gilchrist did not use Golf balls for extra power in a world cup final.
Jason said | November 26th 2009 @ 7:58am | Report comment
Just wanted to add something I discovered about Sachin recently. He is constantly lauded for his record versus Australia – he has made 10 centuries in 29 Tests against them. But dig further and look, you’ll find that only 2 of those centuries came in Tests where Glenn McGrath and Shane Warne were present. Another 3 of the 10 came against Shane Warne only, 2 on the famous 97/98 tour and one versus Warne on debut back in 1992 in Sydney. 97/98 was a great series for him, but it was also great for the immortal Navjot Sidhu who pasted a weak Aussie attack around. Warne is the only guy a casual cricket fan would be able to name from that 97/98 tour. The other bowlers were: Gavin Robertson the off spinner – never played again, Alan Dale an ODI specialist medium pacer was in the team – never played another test and Greg Blewett for crying out loud was bowling 10+ overs an innings… A young Michael Kasprowicz was the only bowler to feature ever again, so Warne had no support at all.
I personally think Glenn McGrath could control Sachin quite well in Test cricket. ODI cricket was different, Sachin came down the wicket to him quite a bit and that is a tactic that I’m surprised no one else ever used to McGrath very often (The only other guy I remember doing it was Abdul Razzaq).
And whoever posted about Murali saying Tendulkar is the best ever…Wrong! Find Murali’s quotes after his 01/02 series against the West Indies. Brian Lara was unstoppable, and absolutely owned Murali despite playing on the turning SL pitches. After that series Murali said that was the best anyone’s ever played him.
I think there is nothing wrong with saying Sachin’s overrated, particularly in Test cricket. That DOESN’T MEAN HE’S NOT GREAT, just means he isn’t the best player since Bradman. I personally think Lara was a touch more impressive than Sachin and you could argue that Ricky Ponting has been just as good as the Little Master. I personally quite admire Sachin, he’s seems so humble and that is a trait missing in many players and teams. His technique too is great to watch. So while I like Sachin very much, I just don’t think he is as awesome as he’s made out to be. Close, but not quite.
davido said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:30am | Report comment
I think the real point about this article is that some players, Kallis, Jayawardene and Sangakarra for example rarely get the CREDIT due to them.
Santhosh said | November 28th 2009 @ 9:14pm | Report comment
In 1999/2000 series Sachin scored 270 runs at an avg of 45 & he is man of the series because he was given out wrongly 4 times in 6 innings
Omer Admani said | November 30th 2009 @ 4:03pm | Report comment
I agree there.
In tests Lara was a much better player than Sachin.
Sachin’s 10 centuries are reduced two with Mcgrath playing. His highest score comes down in the vicinity of 115-120. He hasn’t won any matches with Mcgrath playing. Sachin has won very few matches overall. He has 2 double hundreds only if you remove bangladesh and Zimbabwe. Lara has 7 double hundreds minus these teams. Lara also has a 300 and a 400. Lara has 3 innings in the top 15 of all time. Lara was a much better matchwinner.
Ponting is also better than tendulkar in test matches.
But, I think, unfortunately, a player that will always live in the shadow of tendulkar, but is a much better matchwinner and destructive player, is Virender sehwag. Sehwag debuted in the 2000/2001 period. If we look at India’s win/loss ratio with Sehwag and without Sehwag during that period, there is a humongous jump of 32 percent when Sehwag plays compared to when he doesn’t. Since the ratio is considered only after 2000/2001, with Sehwag and without Sehwag, the only difference in the team, on average, is, Sehwag. As far as I am concerned, this is a much more useful measure of a player’s impact on the team and his matchwinning capability. With Tendulkar, there is absolutely no positive impact, in fact the ratio decreases with him in the team.
So many people are saying Sachin had a very alluring style of play and, for that reason, he should be considered the best. While the line of argument may have merit, Laxman beats Tendulkar any day in that aspect.
I would say:
1) Lara
2)Sehwag
3)Ponting
I believe by the time Sehwag retires, he will be considered one of the most destructive players, along with Richards, to have graced the game (and a better player than Tendulkar). He has almost convinced Murali, arguably the greatest bowler in history, to retire.
ABH said | November 30th 2009 @ 11:07pm | Report comment
1)Born to bat- Peter Roebuck
2) Once in a century star- Steve Waugh
3) Sachins top of my batpack- Nasser Hussain
4)The end is nigh but Tendulkar is not yet finished- Paul Moon
5) Only Sachin Tendulkar can equal Don Bradman- John Woodcock
6)Tendulkar’s final onslaught =cricinfo
7)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vthfSPF_LCw
Please read and learn.
Till 01/01/2003: The big 3 :SRT 8811@ 57.6 31 hun, BCL 7572@49.5 18 hun; Pont 4246 @ 48.8 14 hun. After mid 2007 again Tendulkar trumps Ponting,Dravid etc.
Al said | November 30th 2009 @ 11:16pm | Report comment
It is abundantly obvious that you have not watched any cricket in the 90s.
Or as is usual with a particular part of geography- the insane jealousy towards tendulkar being anointed as possibly the greatest batsman of all time drives you guys up the wall. You simply cannot stomach the fact.
Yaanni said | December 8th 2009 @ 6:44am | Report comment
Care to check Ponting’s record against WI when Walsh and Ambrose were there, against SA when Donald was there, against Pak when the W’s were there……..apply conditions on both sides to be fair………
Tock said | November 26th 2009 @ 8:10am | Report comment
Good point about Pontings playing of spin, he hangs in there rather than dominates and as an aussie supporter I never feel confident that Ponting will survive against the spinners. Both Tendalka and Lara have given Warne and many other spinners some fearful pastings and basically never look troubled.
Tock said | November 26th 2009 @ 8:16am | Report comment
The comparisons with the captancy are to some extent irrelevant if we are talking about the best batsmen and the politics of Indian cricket make it impossible to make a fair comparrison at any rate. Bottom line is that if Tendulka is touring Aus tomorrow I will do what I can to get along and watch.
str said | November 26th 2009 @ 8:17am | Report comment
Guys, nice heated debate going on here.IMHO, separate guys like Dravid,Kallis from the likes of Sehwag,gilly and hayden.They have very different set of and playing styles..but that’s the whole point of watching test matches.
Animals like Sachin,Lara,Ponting belong to a diffenert category altogether in terms of skill,they can do more or less the same things from both set of batsmen based on the mood.Lara and Sachin go up in my view since they batted against the like of mcgrath and warney supported by best fielding side/most hostile crowd in the most dominating phase of test cricket.Sachin a bit higher since he was the only guy given shoulder before the wicket in AUS
Other department Ponting really looses out to other two all time greats is dignity,class and composure.
Justin said | November 26th 2009 @ 12:43pm | Report comment
Didnt Sachin blatantly lie during the fiery AUS summer a few years back to protect Singh?
Craig said | November 26th 2009 @ 2:43pm | Report comment
yes Justin he did, but he did it with dignity, class, and composure.
ABH said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:48pm | Report comment
reply above
Santhosh said | November 28th 2009 @ 9:17pm | Report comment
What is the proof .Even channel 9 doesn’t given the proof for sledge
Dave1 said | November 29th 2009 @ 2:39pm | Report comment
Why ist the testmony different in the appeal compared to the original hearing?
http://www.smh.com.au/news/cricket/all-deals-are-off-declare-indians/2008/01/11/1199988590669.html?page=2
‘…..Meanwhile, the Indians have laughed off suggestions that Andrew Symonds misheard Harbhajan Singh during their clash, which resulted in racism charges being successfully brought against the spinner….”.
Fisher Price said | November 26th 2009 @ 9:17am | Report comment
This sensationalism was hardly deserving of a link to The Surfer on Cricinfo…
Dave1 said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:28pm | Report comment
Its not sensationalism
Justin said | November 26th 2009 @ 12:41pm | Report comment
The one thing that people need to realise when they say Ponting didnt face such and such is that Sachin had only played about 20% of his tests before Ricky came along. Its not like their careers are in such different eras or that Sachin played 100 tests against greats when Ponting didnt.
And lets face it you would prefer to play some of the great fast bowlers in India rather than AUS with all the extra pace and bounce. That I am afraid is indisputable if you know anything about cricket.
Fisher Price said | November 26th 2009 @ 12:50pm | Report comment
20 percent is not insignificant.
Nor is the fact that Ponting has played in the number one Test team for most of his career.
Craig said | November 26th 2009 @ 2:45pm | Report comment
Have his performances not been a significant reason why they were the number one test team for most of his carrer?
Nonsensical argument in my opinion.
KGB said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:25pm | Report comment
Oh, really? Nonsensical? You’re Aussie, you guys know your baseball. Ever hear of lineup protection? If someone has access to the Wisden database, can they do a quick check of the scores when these guys have walked in respectively?
Further, why don’t you subscribe to the fact that having an awesome batting line-up above and below you actually allows you to attack more? Until 2001, when Dravid and Ganguly and Laxman really came into their own, Sachin carried that travesty of a batting line-up for a decade, especially abroad. Why do you think Aussie adjudicators gave him the Man of the Series award in the 1999-2000 series in Aus, when India lost a 3-test series 3-0? India, for vast periods of Sachin’s career, had a terrible bowling attack (for outside India). They also had a massively hit-and-miss lineup, with openers like Vikram Rathore, Sujith Somasundar and other such luminaries holding the fort for Dravid and Tendulkar to walk in. If you were to argue that Dravid has been the better Test player for the last 10 years, no arguments there. But talking about a full career? Can you even begin to imagine how it must have been mentally to play in that shambles of an Indian team in the 90’s?
Al said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:53pm | Report comment
SPOT on.
Problem is i doubt most of the kids here have actually watched any cricket in the 90s
Santhosh said | November 28th 2009 @ 9:19pm | Report comment
4 times wrongly given out
Craig said | November 30th 2009 @ 11:53am | Report comment
Huh?
‘You’re Aussie, you guys know your baseball”.
sorry, the correlation is lost on me.
My point is that in saying Ponting benefited in playing for the best team of his era, this unfairly discounts his performances that contributed to that side being number 1.
Shyam said | November 30th 2009 @ 5:48pm | Report comment
Actually, in case you have not realized it yet, Australia are not the no.1 side anymore. They have slipped to No.4 and this despite Ponting being at or near his peak form. So, to answer you point, I don’t think Ponting can take too much credit for Australia’s domination in the past. A big chunk of that credit would go to Warne and McGrath. Australia’s strong batting lineup then was only a support act and not the reason behind their domination.
Craig said | December 3rd 2009 @ 3:19pm | Report comment
“Have his performances not been a significant reason why they WERE the number one test team for most of his carrer?”
“My point is that in saying Ponting benefited in playing for the best team of his era……….”
Pathrakkaran Sunny said | November 26th 2009 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
>> . MATCHES WHERE TEAMS SCORE GREATER THAN 600 RUNS: over 50% of matches where a team scores over 600 runs in the last ten years have been played in India. Indian pitches produce big scores.
Are you making up the stuff here ? According to statsguru (link at the end), there have been 49 matches which produced over 600 – NINE out of 49 have been in India, including two in the present series.
Oh, by the way, Australia has seen more 700+ scores than India – including one by India, with a certain FTB scoring 241* ! Any idiot – even I – can make up stuff like this that looks impressive at first sight.
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=team_score;runsmin1=600;runsval1=runs;spanmin1=26+Nov+1999;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team;view=innings
sandy said | November 26th 2009 @ 2:57pm | Report comment
aussie supporters still talking abt monkeygate saga!!!!!! u hav to remember one thing folks.symmo is the guy who went to bhajji and startes all the thing…one thing i m sure…aussies tried too much to get into the skin of bhajji and got him under their skin insted….bhajji is not a sort of guy who can be sledged…..the best way to get to him is strike him out the attack…..
returning to the current debate…..lara was inconsistent when compared to sachin….as for as ponting is concered,he never faced the frightning bowlers that sachin had faced……..he good playing against spin but not as exceptional as the other two or his mate clarke…..but he is very good against fastbowlers…and probebly the best puller and hooker the gamehas ever seen…
kallis and dravid belonged to same catogory as batsmen but dravid more technically sound than kallis…….same way ,hayden,pietersen .sehwag and smith belongs to same catogory……..
there are also other batting stars of this gene……..inzi,yousf, fleming,sangakkara,chanderpaul who occupies the position after the top three sachin,lara,ponting………(strictly in the same order)…….
Dave1 said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:35pm | Report comment
this make racism ok?
“….bhajji is not a sort of guy who can be sledged…..the best way to get to him is strike him out the attack…
Vijay said | November 27th 2009 @ 5:31am | Report comment
Carrying the guilt of racism for centuries together has destroyed your psyche so badly that you jump up to accuse all others about racism when people from other cultures do not have a great idea about your slang racist references. In India no one thinks calling someone a “monkey” is racist. Until the Symonds affair happened I didn’t even know that monkey was a racist word. What about when Saint McGrath called Jayasuriya “black monkey”? What about Slater’s racist slurs? What about Symonds calling Sreesanth “orangutan”? If calling someone a monkey is racist then calling someone a black monkey or orangutan is also racist, no?
dasilva said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:20am | Report comment
Please give some source on this “black monkey” or “orangutan” racist allegation. I never heard about this as well as Slater’s racist slurs.
“In India no one thinks that calling someone a “monkey” is racist. ”
Quite frankly the vast majority of “racial” abuse aren’t due to people believing what they are saying is racist. It’s due to cultural ignorance of historical events. The fact is majority of racist words aren’t racist by itself, it’s only becomes racist due to historical used of the words.
Historically a person with black ethnicity were considered below human and were called monkey as a derogative term. So even if you’re intentions weren’t racist, it was still completely ignorant of social context and it’s still unacceptable behavior.
After all isn’t it one of society expectation is to respect cultural differences.
Yaanni said | December 8th 2009 @ 6:31am | Report comment
OK, so according to you A calling B a monkey is necessarily referring to B’s evolution. And there cannot be any other intention behind it.
What about Michael Clark being called Pup, I recall Symonds himself said bout him “Pup has enormous luck going on with him” during the Sydney test presentation (and that was after he had allegedly been called a Monkey by Harbhajan).
Wasn’t Symonds being racist there? How would you explain that? How will you differentiate between these two cases?
Now you would say that Pup is his nick name after all and he doesn’t mind it or may be that Pup is a popular affectionate term in Australia……or may be that Symonds did not say it during an argument but whatever you might say, it will show that calling someone a monkey or a pup or an ass does not necessarily mean racism.
On a diff note, can calling someone “An obnoxious weed” be construed as racism? You see, weeds belong to the kingdom Plantae and plants are generally believed to be inferior to Humans, Wolves, Horses, Bears, Dogs, Gorillas, Orangutans and even Monkeys.
And on an even esoteric. note, don’t you think Symonds’ hair style looks a bit like weeds growing in a kitchen garden? Don’t you think it means the weeds have gotten to his head?
Dave1 said | December 12th 2009 @ 4:43pm | Report comment
An “obnoxious weed” is not racist. Giving someone a nickname ‘pup’ is not racist. Language is not that complicated.
I have already posted on this thread and example of how calling a person of black African background a monkey is racist . it is racist in India and it is racist in Australia
No matter obtuse Harbajan may be,s he knew it was racist because he had already been told this in India by Symond’s.
He knew it because he had seen the reaction to the Indian crowd making monkey noises
http://www.smh.com.au/news/cricket/india-bows-to-pressure-on-racism/2007/10/18/1192300955146.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
Dave1 said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:22pm | Report comment
you might not have known but singh and the indians did becasue symonds told them it was racist.
If its not racist why was Symonds single out?……why not call ponting a monkey?
http://www.cricketnetwork.co.uk/boards/read/s119.htm?118,8919803
“Like many other students from Africa, John Patrick Ojwando chose to come to India, to Mysore, for higher education as it was cheaper here than in Europe or the US. Ojwando is from Kenya, which has a large Indian population, and so he thought India wouldn’t seem too foreign. But it was only when he arrived here that he realised just how much of an outsider Indians could make him feel, and that Indians in India were in fact plainly racist. …….
That persistent gaze on the street that Ojwando faced, people assured him, came from curiosity. After all, many he met didn’t even know where Kenya was. The name-calling followed: strangers and even people known to him would call him a monkey……..
..
yaanni said | December 13th 2009 @ 3:14pm | Report comment
“If its not racist why was Symonds single out?……why not call ponting a monkey?”
Very simple……it was Symonds who had a go at him when Harbhajan was patting Brett Lee. So Simple…..Ponting did not say anything to Harbhajan so he escaped…………What are you trying to prove here? That Harbhajan deliberately patted Brett Lee cos he knew that then Symonds will come and chide him and so then he will be able to call him Monkey to his heart’s desire?
Dave1 said | December 13th 2009 @ 4:09pm | Report comment
Harbijan first called Symond’s a monkey in India. The crowd called Symond’s a monkey in India. The only Australian player called a monkey was Symond’s who is black.
This had nothing to do with Brett lee and Sydney or anything.
Harbijan was told then, in India, it was racist.
He was told it is racist because it is racist.
Craig said | November 30th 2009 @ 11:59am | Report comment
Vijay, when did McGrath call Jayasuriya a black monkey? What are these Slater racist slurs you write of? When did Symonds call Sreesanth an orangutan?
Regardless of your sheltered existence, the Indian players were left in no doubts as to what the Australian cricketing team, and the cricketing world in general thought of Symonds being called a monkey, both by Singh and the Indian crowds, when the Australian team toured India for a one day series prior to the Indian tour of Australia.
Your ignorance may very well be able to be excused, Harbajhans can not.
yaanni said | December 14th 2009 @ 2:28am | Report comment
Since you seem to regard Dave1’s references so highly, you might find this one relevant too.
http://www.334notout.com/ashes/ausmcslur.htm
AS for the remaining two points, even I have never heard of any incident of Slater’s racist slurs or Sree Santh’s Orangutan. I have no idea who made these points. Slater been in an ugly incident in the past but that was in 2001 in Kolkata i guess when he claimed a catch against Dravid AFAIK. That’s all that is there against Slater. (But that was a rather extended display of abuse by Slater, don’t you think?)
Secondly, there is no record of Harbhajan calling Symonds calling him monkey when he was in India. This is frivolous. Craig, you are talking absolutely rubbish here.
Dave1 said | December 20th 2009 @ 2:24pm | Report comment
There is record of Harbhajan calling Symonds calling him monkey when he was in India.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/symonds-tried-to-settle-monkey-row/story-0-1111115284870
“CRICKETER Andrew Symonds refused to allow his team to prosecute Indian spinner Harbhajan Singh as a racist after he allegedly called him a “monkey” during a one-day match in Mumbai on Australia’s tour of India last October.
Symonds reported the racist taunt to captain Ricky Ponting after the game and a team meeting of the Australians resolved to report Harbhajan to the match referee………….”
Yaanni said | December 8th 2009 @ 3:14pm | Report comment
Dave, you seem to have gotten stuck on this racism thing…….are there no other negatives left?
Why do you believe that of all the things, racism is the one that just has to be dealt with most sternly?
Come on, cricket is a sport, a contest between bat and ball. Where is the need of sledging someone? Why should a player be allowed to try to distract another one? Why can’t it be played purely in terms of cricketing skills? Why allow sledging? Why was it ok for Symonds to have a go at Harbhajan, why don’t you talk bout it? It is interesting to note that while Symonds said he went to Harbhajan to give him a piece of his mind for hitting (actually just patting) Brett Lee, Brett Lee himself has not really confirmed that he was patted by Harbhajan. In any case, even if it is true, does it give Symonds the full monty to have a go at Harbhajan? By that token, Harbhajan has the full right of fending off Symonds’ needles pestering by mouthing off anything. Tell me, why do you believe that while racism is absolutely not permissible but it is quite permissible to call someone using the choicest words with all the blood relations mixed with? It is absolutely rubbish.
Dave1 said | December 20th 2009 @ 3:11pm | Report comment
They could have made all those defences, like provocation, at their hearing, if they wanted to.
Or they could have gone to the hearing been found guilty appealed and told a different story at the appeal.
They went for the second option.
sandy said | November 26th 2009 @ 3:10pm | Report comment
the only reason for this debate is only due to the injury years of sachin…..bcci rushed sachin too early in that time coz india continued losing games and it made the problem worse……he sback now and doesn,t cramped while playing 175* and he has more fitness than ever and also has the liberal of choosing games he wants to play,,,,,,,,he will playing more then a couple of years…..the most important thing for all the batsmen is they cant play as they want after getting old……..lesser concentration and low reflexes……..hayden retire because of this………sachin is making a statement that age doesn’t concoquered him yet..his legacy is not finished even after 20 years of intl cricket………
Al said | November 26th 2009 @ 3:23pm | Report comment
Just a thought:
Doesn’t it depend on WHO says so and so is “overrated” or “underrated”?
Does it matter that the people who “rate” Tendulkar as the “Best batsman they have ever seen” include Woodcock,Benaud…all the way down to the Waughs,Warnes,Donalds,Akrams,Pontings,Laras etc.
And that the people who rate Tendular as “overrated” include errr…..ppl like the author and you?
Craig said | November 30th 2009 @ 12:02pm | Report comment
is this your first time on the internet?
Al said | November 30th 2009 @ 11:13pm | Report comment
Err, no.
But the first time you ever watched cricket cannot be more than a about 7 years back.
Anyone who has watched cricket in the 90s would be physically unable to come up with your incoherent garbage.
Craig said | December 3rd 2009 @ 3:22pm | Report comment
isn’t it time you got the crayons out? I’m sure your mum would like another picture to pin up on the refrigerator.
ABH said | November 26th 2009 @ 3:28pm | Report comment
Oh,you win bro. yeah! ponting is the greatest batsman ever! happy? noone but noone has ever had such mastery over all kinds bowling in all kinds of circumstances over such a long period….bravo..ponting.
have u even bothered to check the 90s stats to the 03-07 stats of some 25/30 batsmen?
really whats the point…cheers to ponting…batsmen completo and extraordinaire…ciao, bro…have a good one.
Justin said | November 26th 2009 @ 3:38pm | Report comment
This is getting childish but its amusing when really the tiniest percentage separates most of the current day greats. If one were so superior it would clearly show that in the records.
brad said | November 26th 2009 @ 3:53pm | Report comment
Tendulkar and Ponting are 20 Months apart in age. Sachin Made his Debut in 1989, Ponting was playing schoolboy cricket at the time. I would have loved to have seen ponting been thrown into test cricket in the early 90’s and what that would have domne to his averages! anyhoo. Tendulkar edges it with his bowling
ABH said | November 26th 2009 @ 3:58pm | Report comment
Here’s and interesting vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vthfSPF_LCw
Matt said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:47pm | Report comment
What a fun read. The Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting debate pops up every few months and then the arguments fly. It always seems to decend into comments about Australians in general. Not sure why that is. Stats are great aren’t they? Basically if I was to be asked what would be the best way to spend 2 hours at the cricket, it would be Lara without a doubt. If I want to win a World Cup I would take Ponting every time. But if I want to destroy Shane Warne then Tendulkar is my man. Which of course is all irrelevant. But as usual the fact that the arguments between the three are so fierce tends to show you there is no clear hands down winner. All these posts prove is who has the most supporters with internet access and time on their hands. Obviously Lara loses badly on this very important measure ;->.
ren said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:52pm | Report comment
i was going to say no, but the love fest on here makes me think that some are so blindy faithful to the idea of tendulkar being the 2nd best ever that prehaps is somewhat overated by some.
tendulkar is a genius, shown by him standing the test of time, in saying this it will be interesting to see how long ponting wants to play on for, at least the next ashes in england i would guess, unfinished business et al.
injuries sminjuries- anyone at the top level will ineivtably have injury prone spells in their careers that will lower their averages.
i found the stat on tendulkar v warne/mcgrath very interesting. part of both players greatness is how they worked together. the stat sort of dismisses the great bowler theory being bandied about.
on the bradman comment point, i’m pretty sure there is no way bradman saw ponting at his best.
personally i see rating players as a personal objectivity excercise, each unto their own…
also intrigued that there is a debate as to who is 2nd best- has their even been such a clear cut number one in anyting the way bradman is with batting.
Matt said | November 26th 2009 @ 5:00pm | Report comment
Re your last comment, no there hasn’t been. there was a book a few years ago by a guy called Davis “Best of the Best” and it rated players from all eras over a number of categories and the only one where Bradman was not number 1 was scoring speed. But what he also did was show that in terms of deviation from the mean, Bradman was one in 2 million (I think) and when you consider there has been less than 5,000 test cricketers (let alone batsmen) that is pretty freaky. He also compared that deviation with greats from other sports and made an argument that Bradman was the most dominant sportsman of all time.
Dave1 said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:34pm | Report comment
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1324263/Sir-Donald-Bradman.html
“……..Scoring fast was almost as important to him as scoring high, and over his career he averaged 42 runs an hour. His dominance at the crease was the more remarkable as he was only 5ft 8in tall, and used a light bat. ……..”
yaanni said | December 13th 2009 @ 11:42pm | Report comment
I believe we all generally agree that Ponting’s record got a spectacular catapult in the early part of 2000s, yeah?
Now, when you say that “………..there is no way bradman saw ponting at his best………….”, are you trying to suggest that Ponting’s record in this time period has been the best ever since a long long time? You say that statement as if had Bradman seen Ponting batting in 2000’s, he would have immediately said that “Dear All, errata time, while Sachin comes within a millimetre of my batting style but Ponting comes within an Angstrom.”
No one is denying Ponting his greatness. He is a great player, a heavy scorer who has some strengths which Sachin lacks and some which Lara lacked. But there is something called style, something called Panache, something called “The X Factor” which Sachin has and which Lara had. It is this something which really pushes a player from being merely great to legends. And that’s why, Sachin is a legend, Lara too but Ponting aint.
When Bradman made that comment bout Sachin, he wasn’t necessarily referring to Sachin’s run making talent. Sachin has never had a run spree like Bradman or Lara or Ponting or even like Mohammad Yousuf or Sir Everton Weekes.
What Bradman IMHO intended to say in that comment is that Sachin’s batting reminded him of his own batting STYLE (yeah). And it is this STYLE thing that makes someone a favorite of the media and the peoples. Don’t you feel there is a reason why Chanderpaul hasn’t been mentioned here? Or Mahela Jayawardena (btw, he too has had a solid record of late, just like Ponting had from 2002-2007).
prasanth kongati said | November 26th 2009 @ 5:44pm | Report comment
Considering that Bradman knows something about cricket and we all know that what bradman can do in cricket? If bradman has compared his style and technique matching with tendulkar i dont think we need to have 100000 lines debate to prove something like “Sun rises in the east”…
Yes, there are numerous factors that you can measure a batsem and unfortunately even ICC’s standards are below par to get to the standards. Jacques kallis , Ricky ponting, Brian lara never had to face Curtely ambrose, Courteny Walsh, Mc Grath, Shane warne, Alan Donald , who according to me are mightly bowlers in the era. Where as this little man can lifts his head high against the quality of bowlers he has faced…which according to me is ICC can never measure!!
Dave1 said | November 27th 2009 @ 8:51am | Report comment
Jacques kallis faced Curtely ambrose, Courteny Walsh, Mc Grath, Shane warne
Ricky ponting faced Curtely ambrose, Courteny Alan Donald
Brian lara faced Mc Grath, Shane warne, Alan Donald
Eni said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:30am | Report comment
Yes thats precisely my point.. I always put Sachin n Lara in the same league.. As they have faced tougher bowlers in their time and excelled against them. How much do u think Ponting scored against Ambrose, DOnald and Walsh. He wasnt churning centuries after another when he was playing them. Its only now against the harmisons, Hoggards and others with the help of much improved batting conditions that hes scoring all his runs.
Steve Waugh will always be my fav Australian cricketer. If you tell me he played against tougher bowlers and scored runs, I would agree. Not ponting. Sorry
dasilva said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:11am | Report comment
Exactly, any batsman who average 50 in the 90s is worth more then a batsman who average 50 now (you also missed the likes of Akram and Younis from the great fast bowling list).
That’s why I rate the likes of Lara, Tendulkar and Steve Waugh higher then Ricky Ponting
Ponting in the 90s was averaging 40 ish. A good player no doubt. Only when the retirement of all the great bowlers or when they past their peak did Ponting start cashing in (don’t get me started on Matthew Hayden)
Ponting is an all time great and one of Australian greatest batsman but I wouldn’t put him higher then Steve Waugh and certainly not the likes of Lara and Tendulkar.
ren said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:45pm | Report comment
i dont think its an overly valid point but could it not be argued that the level of dominance reached by ponting and other batsmen of the current decade has lead to the judgement of the surrent crop of bowlers as being lesser than the past crop. kind of a chicken and the egg argument.
having written this i now disagree but still think it raises some interesting wuestoins
yaanni said | December 14th 2009 @ 12:08am | Report comment
Quite a valid point Dasilva. Ponting is undoubtedly good and has a terrific record but he cannot be likened to Lara & Sachin.
Actually, I feel this is not so much about Sachin vs Ponting but more bout Sachin being compared to someone who is just not great enough.
I mean if it is argued that Lara is a better and a greater player than Sachin then I think there won’t be so much of a bruhaha. But when ppl start talking bout everybody who has had a good last few years as being the real great player, thats when it irks.
Btw, here’s an open question for everyone. If Ponting is to be deemed as being a better player than Sachin, then why is Jayawardena not being mentioned too? He has a smashing record in the last 3-4 years and still going strong.
Personally, I was quite surprised to know it when he scored his 9000th run a few weeks back, I had no idea he had scored so much). If Ponting can get so much hype on the basis of his Early 2000’s record, can’t Jayawardena’s fans say the same for Ponting that he is an overrated player too?
redneck said | November 27th 2009 @ 1:32pm | Report comment
Dave1 mate dont forget about the 2 W’s from pakistan
Dave1 said | November 27th 2009 @ 4:19pm | Report comment
What about the 2 W’s from pakistan?
sivaprakasam said | November 26th 2009 @ 8:50pm | Report comment
Lara and Sachin destroyed attacks in spin . fast pitches
Ponting – Poor fellow who dont have records to show in spin pitches, an Fast track bully
Ashwath said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:00pm | Report comment
Its is absolutely ridiculous to suggest tendulkar is overrated. The simple pressure of a billion people should put his feats in perspective search your feeling’s you know it to be true.
Balaji said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:36pm | Report comment
Ah! The same old debate! The cricket fanatics dont fade discussing numbers do they? No wonder the Mom & WAGS are always against us watching the sport! We are measuring greatness by numbers! A wonderful backhand, the best the sport ever saw, fetched Federer a point…not the game,..there are some memories in sport that defines it..!
When Sachin plays, he is technically so clean that some of the awesome shots refuse to leave the memory. That defines him!…Surely yes, Afridi has hit more sixes than Sachin..But the one he hit against Shoaib Akhtar in 03 WC or the one against Warney in 98 Chennai refuses to leave memory which defines what Sachin is!
How many of us here rates Lara’s 400 better than his 200 odd in his final tour to Australia? Numbers merely say whether the man is fit for the profession or not..Records merely puts the numbers into perspective. The driving factor is the passion. Its not merely “bowling in the right areas” like the Pommies claim, its about ” i know i am in that Zone” when you take entertainment into greater heights! Thats what Cricket is all about.
In that scale, Sachin is well and truly one of the greatest! Trying to put a number to greatness is again a mere stastian’s voyuer!
Al said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:38pm | Report comment
Hiya truf saya , et al
Further to a comment above :
Alright ,since you asked for it, here’s an eg:
Maradona (appearances/goals): club -588/307 ;int : 91/34,
Platini (appearances/goals) : club - 580/312 ;int : 72/41
Clearly Maradona is “overrated” as compared to Platini.
Now , of course, I don’t care to hear about nonsense like skills, talent, “magic”, what the rest of the team was like ,how he fits into the team, glues the team and all other such rubbish. Or for that matter extraneous nonsense like player views etc
I have proved conclusively with “cold,hard stats” that Maradona was indeed overrated.
Similarly, I think nonsense like skills, type of pitches, rest of team, bowling faced, ability against all types of bowling, ability to vary the pace of innings, match saving innings, etc etc is again all rubbish. After you have cold,hard stats don’t you?
SAMMY KUMAR said | November 27th 2009 @ 12:19am | Report comment
What this article fails to mention is that Tendulkar started playing in 1989. In ODI’s, he did not score his first hundred until his 79th match, many years after his debut. Sachin started at 16 and he is now 36 and has amassed 30,000 runs.
It his to his great credit, talent, ambition and drive that has enabled him to CONSISTENTLY remain one of the premier batsman in world cricket today.
Ponting started in 1996/7 and has played non-stop. Tendulkar was injury plagued between 2004-2006. It was only in 2007 that he played a full year, smashed more than 1200 ODI runs (in 2007) and was ranked NO. 1 in the ODI rankings. I bet not many people know that??? So he peaked in the mid-late 90’s until arguably 2003.
He then goes and regains NO 1 spot in ODI rankings only two years ago aged 34. He has played much less test matches this decade hence why Ponting, Sanga and Kallis have scored more runs/hundred than Tendulkar.
However – these players have PEAKED this decade, with Ponting being the best batsmen since 2003-2007. Sachin peaked over 10 years ago and he is STILL GOING STRONG.
His average in ODI’s remains over 44 (more than Ponting and Sanga) and his test average has not dipped below 53/54.
In test matches, his HIGHEST SERIES AGGREGATE only came in Jan 2008 against the best team in the world, against Australia in Australia. Sachin has smashed 10 INTERNATIONAL CENTURIES sinec 2008 included seven scores in the 90’s. He has also scored 5 international hundreds against Australia since the start of 2008 including a mammoth 175 recently aged 36.
Sachin also has the most runs and hundreds against Australia in ODI’s and has been the most dominant batsman against the best side in both formats of the game. He single-handedly took apart Australia in 1997/8 in both formats of the game.
Further, Sachin has dominated all bowling attacks and has had to bat against the best bowlers in the world for 20 years. Allan Donald, Pollock, Warne, Viv Richards, Bradman, Boycott, Richard Hadlee are just a few of many respected cricketers who state that Tendulkar is the best player they had seen or played with. Ponting also states this.
No doubt, I believe Ponting to be the best batsman of this decade, but even if he overtakes Tendulkar in tests, he may be claimed as slightly better, maybe, only in the test format.
But as an overall player, in all formats, against all attacks, including spin and playing against the best, Tendulkar surely must be crowned as the greatest batsman of our generation, maybe slightly ahead of Lara.
Instead of trying to diminish a genius and bringn his status into disrepute, one should applaud his longevity, the burden he has had to carry from an over-the-top India and simply the consistency that makes him arguably the best batsman since Bradman.
Just for argument sake, I have prepared the following information. Like the person who wrote this blog, I am being very specific but PLEASE, this is just an analysis to show a neutral view.
Below is statistics of the top players since 01 Jan 2007 to 25 November 2009. Because this article is about Tendulkar, I have started from 2007 as this was when he recovered from injury and started playing consistently.
The following data has been collected from CRICINFO and includes all formats (ODI, TEST & T20) for non-bias and overall overview:
Chanderpaul
Matches: 82
Runs: 4042
Average: 64
Hundreds: 13
Kallis
Matches: 89
Runs: 4540
Average: 51.59
Hundreds: 9
TENDULKAR
Matches: 89
Runs: 4968
Average: 50.18
Hundreds: 13
G Smith
Matches: 91
Runs: 4844
Average: 48
Hundreds: 9
Sangakarra
Matches: 113
Runs: 5132
Average: 43.86
Hundreds: 13
Ponting
Matches: 110
Runs: 5247
Average: 44.84
Hundreds: 13
Jayawardene
Matches: 123
Runs: 5497
Average: 43.62
Hundreds: 14
K Pietersen
Matches: 101
Runs: 4768
Average: 43
Hundreds: 14
——————————————————————-
As you can see, Sachin Tendulkar averages over 50 since 2007. More than any other batsman par from Chanderpaul & Kallis.
BEFORE crazy idiots bombard me and this blog with comments, allow me to state that – no doubt, if you showed stats from 2003-2007, Ponting and Kallis would be at the top. But this is when they peaked. Tendulkar peaked from 1996-2003 roughly.
So like this guy who wrote the article is doing – I am showing stats based on particular range and elements and wanted to prove to everyone, that since 2007, aged nearly 34, Sachin is still doing pretty well, dont you think?
PLEASE NOTE – all I am doing is proving that Tendulkar clearly has not diminished and is still scoring runs, hundreds and averaging better than most other batsman, even in his 17th-20th years of playing cricket.
This writer, is also stating that Tendulkar is outshined in other parts of the decade.
Allow me to compare stats from
01 Jan 1996 – 25 Nov 2009
Tendulkar
Matches: 458
Runs: 24410
Average: 50.12
Hundreds: 76
Ponting
Matches: 473
Runs: 23749
Average: 48.07
Hundreds: 66
Why are Tendulkar’s stats better than Ponting’s? Simple. Tendulkar peaked during the late 1990’s whereas Ponting had just started.
Not a fair comparison? Fair enough, I will now show stats during Ponting’s “reign”, from
01 Jan 2003 – 25 Nov 2009:
Ponting
Matches: 270
Runs: 14438
Average: 50.65
Hundreds: 42
Tendulkar
Matches: 193
Runs: 9750
Average: 46.65
Hundreds: 24
Yes, I know. Ponting outshines completely during this period. There is nothing wrong with that. Ponting has dominated this period, no question about that. Tendulkar also, hardly played for 2 years between 2004-2007. He played 77 less matches than Ponting during this period and has been injury-plagued.
Not Ponting’s problem, we know. Ponting is best batsman of this period – no one denies this.
BUT – ONCE AGAIN – all I am illustrating and proving is that even towards the end of Sachin’s long career, he is still very prolific at the age of 36.
One could argue that other batsman could never have lasted as long as Sachin has, and yet still maintain an excellent record. Consistently scoring, hundreds, and averages over 44 and 54 in ODI’s and Test’s respectively.
Furthermore, does anyone realize the fact the Ponting only averages 20 in India? Does Sachin have a similar records anywhere in the world?
So…who is the better batsman overall of our generation. I think the answer is clear.
marees said | November 27th 2009 @ 1:27am | Report comment
Nowhere in the article does it say explicitly that only tests are being considered and ODIs not in the analysis. If we just go by Test matches, then Sangakkara has been very under-estimated compared to Sachin/Ponting.
If we think about ODIs, Ponting deserves to be 1st because of superior fitness/captaincy. But if we look purely at the batting performance, we should be looking mainly at the strike rate over entire career, here Sachin is next only to Richards and Symonds (whose career seems to have effectively terminated). Sachin’s batting may not be as spectacular as Hayden, but he has been more intelligent and paced his innings well over 50 overs.
marees said | November 27th 2009 @ 1:52am | Report comment
Link to Stats on Sachin’s ODI performance…
If we just take runs scored in SA, AUS and ENG into consideration, he has the 3rd best batting average (behind richards and ponting) for those who have a strike rate better than 80 and scored atleast 3000 runs in these conditions. not bad.
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;host=1;host=2;host=3;orderby=batting_average;qualmin2=.8;qualmin3=3000;qualval2=batting_strike_rate;qualval3=runs;size=200;template=results;type=batting
marees said | November 27th 2009 @ 2:10am | Report comment
OK, I stand corrected. Never guessed that Sachin would have scored lots against BAN, ZIM in ENG/SA/AUS
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;host=1;host=2;host=3;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=2000;qualmin2=.75;qualval1=runs;qualval2=batting_strike_rate;size=200;template=results;type=batting
So apparently, Glichrist,Symonds, Klusener have the highest strike rate, but only Gilchrist had a career comparable to Richards. But his average is not as good as Viv. So that leaves Richard as the undisputed best batsman of ODIs and he was not wearing a helmet and there was no 1 bouncer per over rule also.
Sachin’s greatest strength has been adaptability cum reliability, but he has probably been more of a safe player(against strong opposition in difficult conditions) and never dominated oppositions like Richards/Hayden. But I dont think I have any statistics for this.
SAMMY KUMAR said | November 27th 2009 @ 2:38am | Report comment
ur stats arent a grteat indication – the first link shows ponting playing 100 matches more than tendulkar. also – have a look at overall records against top 7 nations throughout whole career and during 1996-2007.
nilesh said | November 27th 2009 @ 8:19am | Report comment
you have to follow cricket (and the player you talk about) in a lot more detail to come up with some real stuff.. for example take into account sachin’s injuries, and the fact that he skips unimportant (read against easy oppositions) matches etc.
also the times sachin started playing cricket an odi score used to be around 250 or less (and he used to bat in at number 5/6).. so factor that in when you count averages.
and if indian pitches are easy to bowl at how about this ponting never faced the likes of shane warne or glenn mc grath in international cricket. sachin’s average in home is comparable to that outside (yes. you have to factor in some home advantage)
there are other soft reasons for his rating.. for one he doesn’t cheat on field.. unlike one of your favorite player
good luck with your maths! but keep cricket out of it.
Dave1 said | November 27th 2009 @ 8:47am | Report comment
ABH
strange. I dont remember when slater racially abused murali. and went on for a while.
i dont think the match ref probably said something to the slater to the effect ” now now, thats not on”…and and i dont think slater went ” aw i didnt really MEAN anything. im not really a racist u know.heat of the moment kinda thing…”….” yeah yeah i understand…….end of story.
Enter the text shown:
ABH said | November 27th 2009 @ 4:10pm | Report comment
Or was it mcgrat/mcdermot or one of those other neanderthals calling jayasuriya around 1996/97?
Am sure you wouldnt remember though. you were too young then…seeing as you obviously haven’t watched any cricket in the 90s.
Dave1 said | November 27th 2009 @ 4:15pm | Report comment
I don’t know…………….you’re telling the story. You’re the one trying to tell me that racism is alright, sometimes.
You’ve already slandered Slater.
Try some facts.
SouthernWaratah said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:33am | Report comment
Roarers! You’re filling up my Inbox!
We should be counting ourselves lucky to have seen Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting & co in our life time. They’re all brilliant batsman,
Can we leave it at that?
Longmemory said | November 27th 2009 @ 1:36pm | Report comment
What a colossal collection of nitwits! I am amazed that so many of you have so much time to engage in this inane and inconclusive conversation. Anyway, I enjoyed it a great deal, so thanks. I think one of the best windows into the national psyche of the various cricket playing countries is to plow through arguments such as this one. Like all of you, I shall now attempt to name the greatest batsman since Don Bradman – and it will involve no statistics at all. Nope, nothing but my own heartfelt feelings (or prejudice, some might say): Viv Richards. He could play pace and spin; he could do it at home and away; he could save tests and win them in a hurry; and he could do it all with panache and a grin on his face. End of story.
Deepak said | November 28th 2009 @ 2:55pm | Report comment
lol you said richards plays spin very well .now thats not good comment. richards was “average or good”against spin .but not in the class of either lara or sachin.So it must be lara or sachin to be the best (not richards) since bradman.
ATAM said | November 27th 2009 @ 4:11pm | Report comment
This discussion is over-rated and perfectly pointless. If you think he is over-rated, stop writing articles about him, and switch off the TV when he bats. As for what the facts show: people (in hordes) spend beautiful sunny days to watch him bat. And they don’t need to know who said what about him and what nerds with calculators can compute, to enjoy watching him play.
Dave1 said | November 27th 2009 @ 4:55pm | Report comment
I think you should be still able to watch cricket , when he bats even if you think hers overrated.
Also, if someone puts some number out there…that you don’t agree with you,……. have to do better than call them nerds with calculators.
Calling them names doesn’t prove they are wrong.
3sa said | November 27th 2009 @ 5:18pm | Report comment
To Justin…..
You really can’t say that Kallis is not in the same league as the rest ….. clearly not as good as the little master but still in the same league as ponters and brian …..
I really think that in the cricketing world today ….. clearly and i mean CLEARLY the little master is pretty much on top of the cricketing world
Dave1 said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:25pm | Report comment
Why cant you say Kallis is not in the same league as the rest?….. why is he not clearly not as good as the little master?
how can you say that CLEARLY the little master is pretty much on top of the cricketing world?
ABH said | November 27th 2009 @ 5:44pm | Report comment
Sure, here are some random links:
http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2003/dec/09flash.htm
http://www.334notout.com/ashes/ausmcslur.htm
strange, though … That you Aussies are seemingly so blissfully unaware of the incessant filth meted out by your cricket team to all and sundry for over 2 decades. odd.
Craig said | November 30th 2009 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
the first link is to an article by it appears an Indian author. His examples of flash points include:
- and Indian captain spitting the dummy
- an Aussie batsman spitting the dummy
- Indians whunnging about getting a bad umpiring decision
- an Aussie captain abusing an Indian bowler. A completely innocent bowler, who never did any wrong….apparently.
- an incorrect assertion regarding Greg Blewett…..it was his index finger, not his middle finger.
The second articles refer to an allegation made by a Sri Lankan batsman Roshan Mahanama about on-field abuse by Australian Glenn McGrath, about a game Mahanama didn’t even play in.
Come on ABH….seriously, that’s the best you could do?
ABH said | December 1st 2009 @ 12:14am | Report comment
Aww, sorry to dissapoint you. I just randomly googled aussie filth, mcgrath etc and came up with soo many hits, i just randomly picked two.
But seeing as you are so keen to confirm disgusting and filty australian cricket team behaviour i googled a bit more.
surprising you cant be bothered to confirm the same after showing so much concern and interest about harbajans poor behaviour.
heres a few more randomly chosen:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/10/10/1065676159127.html
http://www.lankanewspapers.com/news/2008/1/23383_space.html
http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/01/07/another-hollow-victory-for-australian-cricket/
Literally randomly picked up. havent even bothered to read them fully.
Haven’t you seriously watched cricket from say 1990?? Are you seriously questioning the fact that the Aus team is by far the filthiest and most disgustingly behaved team in the past 2 decades?
get a grip boy… i am so glad harbhajan wasnt penalised (even tho i cant stand harbhanan meself)..
its just that after all the filth dished out by the Aussies (and then allowed to get away scot free for donkeys years) it would have been a travesty of justice.
Dave1 said | December 1st 2009 @ 6:02pm | Report comment
they are not “Literally randomly picked up” …………..if you searched for them
sarath chandra said | November 27th 2009 @ 5:54pm | Report comment
Interesting debate. but pointless. I am an Indian,big sachin fan and did not think ponting rated a mention alongside sachin and lara but hey he did do a lot right and he did win over me over past 2yrs despite not being at his best! He does provide entertainment when he hooks or pulls! And his innings in England where he saved the match is my favorite knock by an Australian. So did his composure when even when they lost to a totally undeserving England side this year. And so did his will do crush them next time they met in odi series,not to forget ashes in aussies last time around! As for sachin scoring only 2 100’s against mcgrath and warne, he only played 8, 5 in india and 3 in aus with both of them in the team. he excelled in australia,won Man of the series and scored 2 100’s but he did score a 55 on a raging turner and thats worth more than some of his other 100’s like the most recent one against SL. He also got debatable decisions. he avergaes only 40 odd against them in india but then you are not questioning his ability in india! Surely not! You can always point at some thing and find fault but I find it better to enjoy the game! Bradman was the best ever batsman but the most dominant ought to be one mr Jahangir khan. most of you would not know him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahangir_Khan Won 555 matches of squash in a row! thats something!
Dave1 said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:36pm | Report comment
Heather McKay was more dominant than Jahangir khan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heather_McKay
Dave1 said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:08pm | Report comment
yes if this happened……….. yes it is bad
yes the world has changed since 1995/96.
The Michael long incident had only happened in April 1995.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Long_(footballer)
In 1995 Long made a triumphant return to AFL football and played almost a full season. In the Anzac Day match between Essendon and Collingwood at the MCG, Long claimed to have been racially taunted by Collingwood’s ruckman, Damian Monkhorst. The AFL arranged a mediation session between Long and Monkhorst and although Long was clearly unsatisfied by the short-term outcome of this meeting, long term it set a precedent and since this incident, there have only been three widely publicised accusations of racial taunts on the AFL field.
And thanks to him the world has changed.
3sa said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:23pm | Report comment
For the record i am Not a AUSSIE …. HELL NO
Dave1 said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:26pm | Report comment
For the record I am an Australian
3sa said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:30pm | Report comment
Clearly buddy clearly … that’s why this debate will never end …. all we need is indian and the it’s good to go
sarath chandra said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:53pm | Report comment
@ dave 1. nice info! just 2 losses in a whole career is pretty AWESOME!
AM said | November 27th 2009 @ 7:21pm | Report comment
Ponting has definitely outscored Sachin in the 2000’s; Ponting has clearly been the most consistent player of this decade.
Sachin went through a lean patch between 2003-07.
The ’90s were definitely tougher for batting than the ’00s – check this link http://www.cricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/423412.html
Only 5 players averaged more than 50 in Tests during the ’90s, and Sachin leads that pack by some distance. Ponting does not feature in the list – http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?batting_positionmax1=7;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=30;qualval1=innings;spanmax1=31+dec+1999;spanmin1=01+jan+1990;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting
Also the ’90s had Ambrose-Walsh, Wasim-Waqar, Donald-Pollock, Gough-Cork(or whoever), McGrath-Warne. Definitely, that decade was tougher for batting.
And regarding easy batting conditions, here is an interesting link – http://www.cricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/360625.html . 3 Australian pitches feature in the top 10 of most batting-friendly pitches in the 2000’s
Anyway, all I’m trying to say is something that we all know. Sachin was at his peak in the ’90s, and he more than managed to hold his own against some of the best bowlers ever – both home and away. Another thing, the BCCI ensured that we played very few tests during those days (same story now). Who knows how much Sachin would have scored if we played more during his peak. For e.g: In 1998, when Australia toured India for a 3 Test series (the Warne-Sachin duel series), I think we played only 1 more Test during that entire year. So thats 4 Tests in 1 full year when Sachin was in prime form. That’s criminal.
So the next time, all you Sachin doubters want to dismiss his record citing easy batting conditions, weak attacks,etc etc, please think again.
Also, being a Sachin fan does not necessarily mean hating Ponting. I’m a 100% Sachin fan, but I admit that Ponting has been the best of this decade.
ats said | November 28th 2009 @ 4:28pm | Report comment
I think there is no point of discussion , you cant compare Sachin with anyone or vice versa, The thing is Ponting has averaged miserable in India is a matter of fact, he has been given Not out’s by umpire in LBW decision to due the Australian influence, whereas Sachin has been given out in some cases which you think its absolutely ridiculous , eg (take his dismissals in the desert storm in Sharjah where both the decisions were dubious) such many instances have happened, even too lara that has happened but in case of ponting he is no where near these two, so stop comparing,. thanks and have sweet dreams , preferably of Sachin annoying you Aussies.
Dave1 said | November 29th 2009 @ 2:01pm | Report comment
When has Ponting been given Not out’s by umpire in LBW decision to due the Australian influence?
Ashtung said | November 27th 2009 @ 8:47pm | Report comment
Just like all other, I too have an opinion and I rate Sachin much higher than Ponting or Lara. He created the Sandstorm when Ponting was a toddler and hit a magical 175 when both are considered veterans.
Did you guys know that one of his toes has been crushed beyond repair since 2003 or that he played half of 03 WC with a fractured finger, on painkillers?
Stats do not tell the whole story. Ponting is closing in quite fast but playing for 20 years is an achievement in itself. Also, any given batsman would rather play as an Aussie no.3 that an Indian no.4, just because you had Hayden and Langer batting above you.
About the monkeygate scandal: How many of the Aussies can deny the slurs, racial or otherwise, have been initiated by Australia in the past 20 years? Watch this to get a little perspective
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivxqjNi4VnE
And if you still think that Sachin lost a bit of respect, you might wanna look in to the reports on the Sydney test Aussies won against India. In Kumble’s words, “only one team played in the spirit of the game”, as Mr. Ponting appealed for even clearly grassed catches, in spite of a pre-match agreement. And oh, THE Greg Chappell, who ordered his brother to bowl an underarm delivery?? These 2 guys should be animals in your view, nay, “monkeys.”
Ponting might come close but is nowhere near him in class and dignity. Sachin bowls too
Dave1 said | November 29th 2009 @ 1:05pm | Report comment
In Kumble’s words were a disgrace. It was him pushing his upper/ upper middle class pompous values on to everyone else.
gph said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:01pm | Report comment
if forced to select one batsman for my team from either ponting or tendulkar, it would be ponting every time.
Harsh said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:11pm | Report comment
Yer, The great Don and most other experts have picked Sachin every time over Ponting
Dave1 said | November 29th 2009 @ 1:21pm | Report comment
The great Don died in early 2001 he didn’t see most of Pontings test career
yaanni said | December 20th 2009 @ 1:49am | Report comment
Dave1, I have given you aqn answer to this somewhere above and you did not respond to it.
You have this irritating habit og making one sided, highly subjective and very unusual statements (and that’s fine to an extent) but you seem to either ignore the replies or just make another such weird point somewhere else in this thread.
For your recollection, here is my what I had responded when you said that Don dint see most of Ponting’s test career……
”
I believe we all generally agree that Ponting’s record got a spectacular catapult in the early part of 2000s, yeah?
Now, when you say that “………..there is no way bradman saw ponting at his best………….”, are you trying to suggest that Ponting’s record in this time period has been the best ever since a long long time? You say that statement as if had Bradman seen Ponting batting in 2000’s, he would have immediately said that “Dear All, errata time, while Sachin comes within a millimetre of my batting style but Ponting comes within an Angstrom.”
No one is denying Ponting his greatness. He is a great player, a heavy scorer who has some strengths which Sachin lacks and some which Lara lacked. But there is something called style, something called Panache, something called “The X Factor” which Sachin has and which Lara had. It is this something which really pushes a player from being merely great to legends. And that’s why, Sachin is a legend, Lara too but Ponting aint.
When Bradman made that comment bout Sachin, he wasn’t necessarily referring to Sachin’s run making talent. Sachin has never had a run spree like Bradman or Lara or Ponting or even like Mohammad Yousuf or Sir Everton Weekes.
What Bradman IMHO intended to say in that comment is that Sachin’s batting reminded him of his own batting STYLE (yeah). And it is this STYLE thing that makes someone a favorite of the media and the peoples. Don’t you feel there is a reason why Chanderpaul hasn’t been mentioned here? Or Mahela Jayawardena (btw, he too has had a solid record of late, just like Ponting had from 2002-2007).
”
I hope you do reply this time.
The point you are making essentially says that had Bradman seen Ponting batting once he really got going in the 2000’s then probbaly he would have said the same things (or may be even better ones) for Ponting what he had said for Sachin.
Dear Dave1, if you had ever really heard what Bradman had said for Sachin then you would not have made this point cos Bradman did not make that point bout Sachin by him scoring heaps n heaps of runs (that’s what you clearly refer to when you say that Bradman died in 2001 and never saw much of Ponting). Bradman made that point bout Sachin “by seeing the way Sachin scored them.” That’s the crux here my dear Dave1 and you are missing it by a mile.
The way you say it, it looks as if Ponting has had the greatest run scoring spree ever seen in the history of the game, surpassing every other great batsman there has been since Bradman retired.
And by using your own logic, since Mohammad Yusuf had a phenomenal year a few years back, he broke the record for most test runs in a calendar year, (you can check it out yourself) so on that basis alone he become a much betterbatsman than Ponting & Sachin & Lara & Viv Richards (cos it was his reord he broke and all others cos no body that many runs ever in one eyar ) Ditto for Mahela Jayawardena too since he has had amazing successes in the last few years, perhaps even better than Ponting’s spree. And moreover, Sachin has a better record than Ponting since the end of 2006. Sachin has scored more runs and more hundreds at a better average in fewer tests & innings than Ponting. And in fact, there are several others who pip Ponting when we talk of the last two years. So clearly, Ponting is on the decline, he had his peak some years back and now is on the wane. Sachin, on the other hand, is still going strong, he is still in the top ten since 2007, Ponting isnt. Sachin has never peaked too much, there has not been a maxima and a minima in his record. And boy, to be so consistemt for 20 years is no joke. That’s why we all love him. That’s why Sachin is such a legend, he is as stylish as a Mark Waugh & David Gower, as technically perfect as Dravid & Kallis and as prolific as your fav Ponting. Ponting, for all his talent & peaks & with the strong Aussie squad support, still trails behind Sachin & Lara (And I think that is a bit fair sequence). Ponting couldn’t sustain for more than a few years and is now clearly struggling even on a much slower than ususal Perth wicket against a newbie fast bowler and he even gets hurt now.
Dave1 said | December 20th 2009 @ 2:51pm | Report comment
No……… I’m saying if someone is saying that Tendulkar is better than or more over/underrated, or whatever the topic is, than Ponting, then you cant use any of Bradman’s comments as a proof when discussing Ponting.
This is because Bradman died in early 2001 and that is before Ponting was at his best.
ABH said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:18pm | Report comment
Which is exactly why you will never ever be a selector for even your local club team.
Ashtung said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:07pm | Report comment
Jut to remind you guys, the Sydney match I was referring to, happened in the same tour, prior to the monkeygate incident. No castigating Ponting for that? Or is it like, it’s allowed to cheat but absolutely forbidden to take your teammate’s side when Aussies, none other, are crucifying him for uttering something they perceive to be racist.
On the Indian tour prior to that, the Aussies actually filled up, yes, filled up a rough spot on the eve of day 5 of a test match (Steve Waugh’s last one) since they had to bat for survival. That’s certainly classy in Aussie culture I suppose.
Point is, get over the monkeygate guys. Something bad happened and for a change, someone stood up to the Aussies and that’s about it.
Dave1 said | November 29th 2009 @ 1:14pm | Report comment
so if you could give me list of times when racism is alright
you’d have on that list……….. you are allowed to be racist if “….the Aussies actually filled up, yes, filled up a rough spot on the eve of day 5 of a test match (Steve Waugh’s last one) since they had to bat for survival. ……”
yaanni said | December 20th 2009 @ 2:55am | Report comment
Get this Racist tag out of your mind. You’ve no other point but just this little one there. And I had responded to this point of yours too earlier but you did not reply to it, you ran away from it and simply started making the same point elsewhere.
And if you are so stuck on this Racicm tag, then why don’t you see the point that when someone is abused unnecessarily and in most unspeakable words then doesn’t that person has the right to defend himself in whatever manner he feels fit? Who are you to tell him that listen, you can abuse in this way & not that way this since I chose to abuse you in only this particular way.
Racism Racism Racism.
Dave1, you’ve got no idea bout how we think of the word Bunder or Monkey in India. For us, anyone who is hyper active & of meddling nature is often nick named monkey. I have had my classmates nick named Baander in School & at College level. Even in my office, I’ve got one Bunder. Ajay Jadeja modelled as a Monkey in a Pepsi more than a decade back. We even have movie dialogues based on the Bunder theme (Yay Bunder Jaisi Shakal Kyun Bana Rakhi Hai? – Why are you so ape faced today?) When somebody passes off someone else’s work as his, we call him Nakalchi Bunder – Copying Monkey. In fact, even in the English language (and this is interesting), copying someone’s habits & making fun of it is called “APING”. Now, are all those English speakers racist? By your logic, YES.
It is debatable whether Bhajju did call Symonds a monkey or was it just a trap to frame Bhajji. I have posted elsewhere in this thread that if Bhajji had indeed called Symonds monkey then how come the umpires & more imp. the mic dint get it? How could Hayden (A sworn Bhajji basher) & Clarke – of all ppl, him be the only ones who heard it and heard only at the precise moment when Bhajji allegedly called Symonds a Monkey and heard nothing else?
You speak so critically of Sachin’s role in this incident since in your opinion, he lied at the hearing. The source of this point is Gilchrist’s book, you have mentioned this elsewhere in this thread. Surprisingly, while you give such a Biblical status to this book, you somehow, just ignore what Mahanama said bout McGrath abusing Jayasuriya in a match some years back. Actually that’s quite consistent with yuor biased and illogical approach so evident throughout in this thread.
Coming back to your criticism of Sachin’s role, you would find it very interesting to hear that Gilchrist wasn’t a witness in the hearing and he never claimed that he had heard Bhajji calling Symonds a Monkey. So if Gilchrist never heard it then how could he say that Sachin lied at the hearing? Simple, Hayden & Clarke must have told him that yes, Symonds is right, even we had heard that obnoxious little weed (how noble words) calling Symonds a Monkey. As for Sachin, either he heard Bhajji calling Symonds something or may be he did not hear anything. In
the latter case, he must have asked Bhajji if he did call him Monkey. And just as it is so acceptable to you that Gilchrist took the word of Symonds & Hayden & Clarke, Can’t Sachin too take the word of Bhajji? Is it illogical?
All this when the man who labelled Sachin a lier, himself used a squash ball in a World Cup Final and derived clear advantage out of it and then defended himself.
It is extremely surprising that there was no material evidence to corroborate the allegation. No Mic pickings, no umpires hearing anything. The two witnesses happened to hear just the word Monkey (others words were just sweet nothings). Nice timing by them.
Dave1, you need to get this thing in your head that merely calling someone a monkey does not mean being racist.
It is all contextual.
I suggest to you that please read the judgement of Justice Hansen. He clearly states that even if it was proven somehow that Bhajji called Symonds Monkey, it would still not hold as a racism charge since it was Symonds who initiated it and had used abusive words with the clear intention of offending Bhajji.
And in the end, since you love the Aussie that all is fair if it is within the rules, here was a hearing that took place with the highest regard to rules (Please go through the para where Justice Hansen establishes the degree of proof needed to hold this charge & the para where he decides upon the format of the ruling based on the precedents in ICC & other civil and criminal courts). In this ruling, Justice Hansen states that he was under no pressure from any party to take sides and that the decision was not a ICC decision but a court’s decision. He also states that even in the hypothetical scenario of Bhajji accepting that he did call Symonds a Monkey, the racism charge would not have been upheld.
The ruling by Justice Hansen actually nailed a few lies by Clarke and overall was not very favorable to the Aussie witnesses’s truthfulness (Please do read this part of the ruling).
Once you read the ruling, and if you are really a logical impartial unbiased person (I assume that you would ideally want to be so) then you would stop making several of the allegations that are your staple.
The Sachin vs Ponting or the Sachin vs the rest debate can go on unabated however….. :p
Dave01 said | December 21st 2009 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
@ Yaani you stated “if Bhajji had indeed called Symonds monkey then how come the umpires & more imp. the mic dint get it?”
Whatever was said was not picked up by microphones. If it was there would have been no controversy.
Hayden, Clarke, Symonds and Tendulkar (only at the appeal though) all said they heard something. Harbajin said he said something.
They all agreed that something was said They disagreed at the appeal on what was said.
But all 5 agreed that something was said that was not picked up by the microphones.
Ashtung said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:08pm | Report comment
Jut to remind you guys, the Sydney match I was referring to, happened in the same tour, prior to the monkeygate incident. No castigating Ponting for that? Or is it like, it’s allowed to cheat but absolutely forbidden to take your teammate’s side when Aussies, none other, are crucifying him for uttering something they perceive to be racist.
On the Indian tour prior to that, the Aussies actually filled up, yes, filled up a rough spot on the eve of day 5 of a test match (Steve Waugh’s last one) since they had to bat for survival. That’s certainly classy in Aussie culture I suppose.
Point is, please don’t say you lot respect for Sachin over that if you at all respect your players.
Harsh said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:10pm | Report comment
I should congratulate the article writer. A very fine article indeed
Using his way of lloking at things i just discovered this
That Gambhir, Sangakarra, Kallis, Hayden and Mahela are way better than the much over-rated Lara and Richards
Biy were the experts all wrong. Thank you for opening my eyes
JA said | November 28th 2009 @ 6:07am | Report comment
very interesting article and some good stats by readers.
There are two issues though: First,Tendulkar is a band-wagon – now that he has been around for 20 years, he is bound to have scores and everyone is on that band-wagon of how great he is. Second, media has played a huge rule in this hero making – media makes Dhoni and Ishant Sharma as greats when they are pretty ordinary in their core competency (keeping and bowling). If Tendulkar wasn’t around, world would definitely be praising one of the most elegant batsmen around – Dravid (and I don’t even support indian team
). Stats and how we look at them produce the result that we want i.e. numbers can be given a prejudiced appearance. Tendulkar has most runs in a lost cause, more centuries in a lost cause!! He has either failed miserably or he has failed elegantly but he has failed on more occassions when it mattered! now it can be said that at least he tried and failed but that doesn’t indicate greatness – most recent being against Australia where he scored 175 but with 30 odd runs left, he got out – result, india lost and \tendulkar added to his runs and centuries. Lots of young bowlers show how important is his wicket to them and almost all of the good ones have it in their early careers – Asif, Walgadera, Mendis, Lee, Akram, Younis – as if Tendulkar helps them boost their careers. I believe, players like Dravid, Sangakarra, Ponting, Lara are far better and dependable when going gets tough. Indian cricket market needs a hero and Tendulkar has provided that heroship. But as a sport viewer, and so many more other viewers, we get a kick watching Dravid’s elegance, Ponting’s cool, Sangakarra’s dependability and Lara’s perseverence. At least, Tendulkar is not dropped and picked and dropped from the side unlike Dravid’s classy plays. Food for thought …
Surfer said | December 19th 2009 @ 5:24am | Report comment
I have a feeling that you are insinuating that Sachin is a selfish player… I can give you a few examples contrary to that which, I think, should settle that issue..
1. He scored a century against Pakistan in excruciating pain and got out trying to end the match because he could not bear the pain any more… The last 4 wickets could not score 18 runs (much like the recent 175 effort against Aus) and India lost… Sachin was awarded MoM but he did not ce out to receive his award…Why? He was crying on the loss…
2. His father passed away during the 03 WC. He left for India, missed a match, returned and scored a century in the next one. This is called dedication and there is only one more such example in modern times when Tresco stayed on for a tour when his Father in law was in the ICU.
3. Dravid declared innings when he was on 194. Any batsman would have felt bad i suppose? Issue was settled without any noise, he insisted on bowling the last over the next day and got Moin Khan…
4. And yeah, he played the 03 WC with a broken finger
RAF said | November 28th 2009 @ 7:51am | Report comment
HARSH, sarcasm aside, which of those has 500 international wickets?
It irks me when people dismis Kallis out of hand and then go on to use intangibles to prove why they think Ponting or Tendulkar is the best (of the current bunch). Being able to match them statistically as a batsman (although definitely not in terms of flair and technique) while also being able to put together a fast-medium bowling career that a specialist bowler would be proud of makes Kallis a better cricketer than either of them, even if they’re better batsmen.
How often have Ponting or Tendulkar had to come in at the fall of the first wicket *after* having bowled 15, 20 or more high effort overs during a day’s play (Tendulkar’s odd overs of two step spin hardly compare in terms of effort)? While his batting stats may not have been much better had he never bowled, Tendulkar or Ponting’s would almost certainly have been worse had they been shouldering the same workload.
davido said | November 28th 2009 @ 5:04pm | Report comment
Good point about the bowling of Kallis, it is often ignored.
vs said | November 28th 2009 @ 10:58am | Report comment
let us not forget warne and mark waugh getting money in 1994 for giving weather predictions (5 years before matching fixing scandal).
australian board didn’t even mention it until 2000 cronje scandal. neither warne nor mark waugh was banned.
Dave1 said | November 29th 2009 @ 1:54pm | Report comment
so your saying racism is alright if “…..warne and mark waugh getting money in 1994 for giving weather predictions….”?
The Mark Wauth, Shane Warne stoy was uncovered in December 1998 almost two years before the Cronje scandal.
saurabh somani said | November 29th 2009 @ 4:27pm | Report comment
Dave1,
racism is alright if:
- the other side has incessantly provoked you by using filthy language, cursing your mother/sister/other random family members/questioning your sexuality etc
in this case, person A abuses person B and person B retaliates by abusing person A.
Are you trying to say that A’s abuses are okay, but B’s aren’t?
Dave1 said | November 29th 2009 @ 4:46pm | Report comment
Harbhajan Singh has sworn at cricketers all over the world. So according to you its alright for him to be racist if someone swears at him.
So, according to you whenever Harbhajan swears at anyone from now on its alright to be racist towards him.
saurabh.somani said | November 29th 2009 @ 10:22pm | Report comment
You’re arguing in an infantile fashion. Every situation and exchange between players is not the same. In that particular case, Andrew Symonds had some very nasty things to say to Harbhajan, so Harbhajan gave it back to him.
I am an Indian, and I believe he did say ‘monkey’ and not ‘teri maa ki’ as it was made out to be later. However, in that particular case, he was extremely provoked and hence his extreme reaction.
All forms of vile abuse are bad IMHO – and what I’m trying to say is that just as you are offended by the racist terms he supposedly used, you should realise that other people may be offended by the abusive terms Symonds used, and a lot of people will not distinguish one form of abuse from another as better/worse.
Craig said | November 30th 2009 @ 12:30pm | Report comment
you are
vs said | November 30th 2009 @ 5:41am | Report comment
i brought that up to say that no body is a saint.
however, acb did hide it for 4 years.
i have visited australia, they are not racist, one of the best countries i have visited.
sledging is bad. if that is acceptable for aussies, racist sledging will happen.
solution is to ban sledging, as you can’t draw a line.
you can abuse me (most indians) with racist words, but i can’t tolerate you abusing my wife or mother .
Deepak said | November 28th 2009 @ 2:47pm | Report comment
hi guys about this debate regarding the best i will have to say this .Ponting is completely out of the equation simply because to be a master batsman you have to play spin and fast bowling pretty well.ponting simply doesnt play spin well .i dont care about averages.then it comes down to lara and sachin.now between them it is merely a matter of opinion.i would say tendulkar of the nineties was the best modern day batsman(due to his many injuries he has become less dominant after 2003 although not less effective)
Ranjil Basnet said | November 28th 2009 @ 3:18pm | Report comment
Im from Nepal and im a neutral cricket observer. of all the batsmen i have watched playing…..no one has given me more pleasure and enjoyment as Sachin Ramesh Tendulkar. HE IS THE BEST CRICKETER EVER. PERIOD!!!!!!!
Ashtung said | November 28th 2009 @ 3:19pm | Report comment
Sachin or Ponting might be the best of today, but nobody since Bradman?? That’s rich. You can’t just overlook the fact that the likes of Jack Hobbs, Len Hutton, Denis Compton or Gary Sobers too used to play the game called cricket. And comparing their stats here is naive.
Just to reiterate, I believe Sachin is better than Ponting. While their Test averages are almost equal, Sachin has a few wickets against his name too. Not the mention carrying the workload of ‘10 others’
davido said | November 28th 2009 @ 5:26pm | Report comment
carrying the workload of ‘10 others’ — a bit insulting to the likes of Dravid, Gambhir etc isnt it?
Their test averages ARE NOT EQUAL. At no.3 Ponting averages almost 61. A no.4 Tendulkar averages 56. That is a statistically significant difference.
NAYAN PRAKASH said | November 28th 2009 @ 6:04pm | Report comment
Why are you guys having a partial look of statistics?
If only you see it in totality, you will know that such comparison is baseless…
You can have your favorite and term him the greatest and there are three nominations Sachin, Lara and Ponting- each supported by their own contrymen but its the support that Sachin gets from other countries including Austrailia…
This article would not have existed but for personal vendetta on MONKEY- GATE scandal…….
My AUSSIE friends should know this….
1 Monkey is not considered a racial slur in India….and Harbhajan is an Indian
2 Harbhajan might have said “maa ki” that vagueky means mother f****r and then he should have got a more severe punishment but even I rue that he didn’t
But why are you protecting Slater and co. who has admitted that he used a racial slur in HEAT OF MOMENT…
Dave1 said | November 29th 2009 @ 2:13pm | Report comment
If its not racist why was Symonds single dout?……why not call ponting a monkey?
http://www.cricketnetwork.co.uk/boards/read/s119.htm?118,8919803
“Like many other students from Africa, John Patrick Ojwando chose to come to India, to Mysore, for higher education as it was cheaper here than in Europe or the US. Ojwando is from Kenya, which has a large Indian population, and so he thought India wouldn’t seem too foreign. But it was only when he arrived here that he realised just how much of an outsider Indians could make him feel, and that Indians in India were in fact plainly racist. …….
That persistent gaze on the street that Ojwando faced, people assured him, came from curiosity. After all, many he met didn’t even know where Kenya was. The name-calling followed: strangers and even people known to him would call him a monkey……..
..
Craig said | November 30th 2009 @ 2:00pm | Report comment
when did Slater admit he used a racial slur NAYAN PRAKASH ?
Dave1 said | November 29th 2009 @ 1:59pm | Report comment
I don’t think you can say Tendlulkar is better than Ponting because he bowls occasionally.
Donthaveaclue said | November 28th 2009 @ 4:46pm | Report comment
Would you determine the top rock bands ever by:
a) only looking for ‘Sales of album covers on the third thursday of the month’?
b) observing the frenzy of fans looking to get into stadiums at live performances over their career?
c) combination of a and b?
One thing is for sure. Writing an article with this title ensures clicks, not necessarily an increase in credibility though a fair attempt has been made using the words “cold hard facts”. Using selective analysis to prove a point is like looking for your keys under a lamp post. Take any sportsperson and you will be able to identify periods / combinations that show ‘inferior’ performance. These only show that the person in question is after all human, not that he is inferior to his peers.
The writer obviously started with the hypothesis that ‘Tendulkar is overrated’ and then tunneled into the data to see what came up. I set out to look at the debate a little more objectively. Inspite of being a tendulkar fan I set out some parameters for comparison in advance to then see how he fared against a set of batsmen I believe represent the cream of his peers. On a couple of those he did worse than his peers while on some other he was way ahead, whichever way you look at it. Overall however he is miles ahead of his contemporaries and would require his challengers to play in a perpetual purple-patch to end at par with him.
http://outsideedge.wordpress.com/the-sachin-tendulkar-debate/
This analysis is for ODI cricket only although I intend to do the same for test cricket soon. Weigh in with your thoughts on whether you agree/disagree with the points made.
Cheers!
davido said | November 28th 2009 @ 5:15pm | Report comment
What rubbish.
Over the entire length of Ponting’s career he has scored more runs than Tendulkar – 11345 to 10434. That is a simple fact. He has done it:
1. with a higher average.
2. mostly as captain – unlike Tendulkar.
3. at no.3 unlike Tendulkar who plays at the more protected no.4
4. on less friendly batsman pitches unlike Tendulkar.
5. winning way more man of the match awards then Tendulkar.
6. with a greater number of INJURYs
It seems straightforward to me. Ponting is better than Tendulkar. Hands down. It seems to me that Sachin fans cannot handle an INCONVENIENT TRUTH.
ABH said | November 28th 2009 @ 6:03pm | Report comment
strange.
this is exactly the same rubbish you posted earlier.
and to which a beffitting reply was given.
are u for real?
davido said | November 28th 2009 @ 6:37pm | Report comment
Yes I am real and unlike you i am not in denial. Sometimes the truth has to be told several times for the apologists and denialists to accept it.
It is the indian bloggers who have turned this into a Tendulkar v Ponting thing. The article is about other how other players are underrated compared to Tendulkar. Now Tendulkar supporters have invited the comparison they dont like the results.
It really is simple. On the two key OBJECTIVE metrics – average and runs scored, Ponting is better than Tendulkar. And not just by a little bit. At no.3 he averages almost 61, Tendulkar averages at the easier no.4 spot 56. He has scored almost a thousand runs more over his career than Tendulkar. On other OBJECTIVE metrics like captaincy performance, easier pitches and injuries suffered Ponting compares more favourably.
On the only SUBJECTIVE measures that provides a measure of team contribution he easily outranks Tendulkar in Man of the Match performances. What is it that fails to convince you? Perhaps youre on-eyed support makes you blind to the facts.
ABH said | November 28th 2009 @ 11:11pm | Report comment
Hmm.
ok let me put it in simple (r?) english:
Till 01/01/2003: The big 3 :SRT 8811@ 57.6 31 hun, BCL 7572@49.5 18 hun; Pont 4246 @ 48.8 14 hun. After mid 2007 again Tendulkar trumps Ponting,Dravid etc.
Now, suppose Ponting starts to suffer a string of injuries. Say in the next 3/4 yrs he has elbow,hand,shoulder etc surgery. Cant even pick up a bat for 6 months etc.
Now say in this period some of the younger players fill their boots and Pontings stats turn horrible.
This will drastically pull down his overall stats. So, then it would be extremely easy to argue exactly as you are, that say sanga,mahela etc are better…INCONVENIENT though it may be to you.
If anyone can actually compare a limp horse to a fit horse and “compare” stats then claim that the fit horse is an overall “better” horse , then obviously it a non issue.
ALso, the simple INCONVENIENT TRUTH is that practically every prominent cricketer and cricket observer from woodock,benaud down to the modern greats,lara and of course ponting HIMSELF categorically state that Tendulakr is the best batsman they have ever seen.
Think they may be aware of your statistical manipulations? their lack of context?
I also cleary mentioned that even AFTER tendulkars worst 3 yrs in 2003/05/06 which were practically pontings best years…their records are still equal.
Ponting has played 20 innings more(the fact that you have intentionaly tried to slip this beneath the carpet reveals a lot about your particular way of thinking)with an avg of 00.40 more including 5 N.O more.
If anyone can seriously imagine (as you seem to be doing) that runscoring was not easier in the 2000s, then he needs to rethink his thesis.
Craig said | November 30th 2009 @ 2:03pm | Report comment
strange.
this is exactly the same rubbish you posted earlier.
and to which a beffitting reply was given.
are u for real?
Al said | November 28th 2009 @ 11:32pm | Report comment
Hi davido,
i have posted a comment up here somewhere CLEARLY showing that Maradona was overrated.
If you can convince me that the stats i have provided show that this is actually NOT so, only then will this line of debate of yours have any sense.
Otherwise it is just shooting in the wind.
Craig said | November 30th 2009 @ 2:05pm | Report comment
is anyone doubting that Maradona was overated…..it appears that’s pretty much accepted?
If you ask me, he was nothing but a flat track bully.
deepa said | November 28th 2009 @ 6:27pm | Report comment
ok davido and truf saya, mr punter’s crazy fan.
To Davido:
point 4. “PONTING SCORED RUNS ON LESS BATSMAN FRIENDLY PITCHES UNLIKE TENDULKAR” and
To Truf saya
MATCHES WHERE TEAMS SCORE GREATER THAN 600 RUNS: over 50% of matches where a team scores over 600 runs in the last ten years have been played in India. Indian pitches produce big scores.
GROUND AVERAGES: over the last 20 years, Indian grounds have averaged more than 70 runs per match than those outside of India (minimum 5 matches).
When you combine both these guys shouting, What they are trying to say is that sachin has scored more number of runs in India, which is supposed to be batsman friendly.
Let us look at stats of Sachin in Australia in tests.
Statistics / Statsguru / SR Tendulkar / Test matches
Statistics Home|Statsguru|2009 Records|All Records|Ask Steven|Numbers Game|The List|It Figures
Tests (1989/90 – 2009/10)
ODIs (1989/90 – 2009/10)
T20Is (2006/07)
Records type all-round analysis [change type]
View match by match list [change view]
Opposition team Australia
Home or away away (home of opposition)
Host country Australia
Match result won match or lost match or drawn match
Ordered by start date (ascending)
Career averages
Span Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 5 Ct St
unfiltered 1989-2009 161 12917 248* 54.73 43 44 3/10 52.22 0 104 0 Profile
filtered 1991-2008 16 1522 241* 58.53 6 7 2/10 44.42 0 13 0
Match by match list
Bat1 Bat2 Runs Wkts Conc Ct St Opposition Ground Start Date
16 7 23 0 13 0 0 v Australia Brisbane 29 Nov 1991 Test # 1177
15 40 55 0 16 2 0 v Australia Melbourne 26 Dec 1991 Test # 1180
148* - 148 1 2 1 0 v Australia Sydney 2 Jan 1992 Test # 1181
6 17 23 2 54 1 0 v Australia Adelaide 25 Jan 1992 Test # 1184
114 5 119 0 9 1 0 v Australia Perth 1 Feb 1992 Test # 1186
61 0 61 0 12 0 0 v Australia Adelaide 10 Dec 1999 Test # 1476
116 52 168 - - 0 0 v Australia Melbourne 26 Dec 1999 Test # 1479
45 4 49 1 34 0 0 v Australia Sydney 2 Jan 2000 Test # 1481
0 DNB 0 0 9 0 0 v Australia Brisbane 4 Dec 2003 Test # 1671
1 37 38 2 39 0 0 v Australia Adelaide 12 Dec 2003 Test # 1673
0 44 44 1 57 2 0 v Australia Melbourne 26 Dec 2003 Test # 1678
241* 60* 301 0 36 1 0 v Australia Sydney 2 Jan 2004 Test # 1680
62 15 77 0 4 2 0 v Australia Melbourne 26 Dec 2007 Test # 1855
154* 12 166 0 20 3 0 v Australia Sydney 2 Jan 2008 Test # 1857
71 13 84 - - 0 0 v Australia Perth 16 Jan 2008 Test # 1862
153 13 166 0 6 0 0 v Australia Adelaide 24 Jan 2008 Test # 1863
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;home_or_away=2;host=2;opposition=2;result=1;result=2;result=4;template=results;type=allround;view=match
Look at the above table, Sachin has scored century in Perth in 1992( in 1993, in same ground Australia were destroyed by Ambrose who took 7 wickets in single spell). He scored century in Melbourne( track which suits fast bowlers on opening day and little bit on slower side). He scored century in Sydney( spinners paradise). He scored century in adelaide (batsman track, but australia consisting of ponting, steve waugh were dismissed for 192 in 2003 series in third innings against India)
Then next Mr.Truf saya pointed out that Sachin scored lot of runs in India, which is more suited to batsman.
coming to davido argument that Ponting scored lot of runs in less batsman friendly pitches. That means he should have scored more runs in India, because truf saya says that India is one of the most batsman friendly pitches in the world.
Look at record of Ponting in India
Statistics / Statsguru / RT Ponting / Test matches
Statistics Home|Statsguru|2009 Records|All Records|Ask Steven|Numbers Game|The List|It Figures
Tests (1995/96 – 2009/10)
ODIs (1994/95 – 2009/10)
T20Is (2004/05 – 2009)
Records type all-round analysis [change type]
View career summary [change view]
Opposition team India
Home or away away (home of opposition)
Host country India
Match result won match or lost match or drawn match
Ordered by default (ascending)
Career averages
Span Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 5 Ct St
unfiltered 1995-2009 137 11400 257 55.88 38 5 1/0 48.40 0 159 0 Profile
filtered 1996-2008 12 438 123 20.85 1 0 - - 0 18 0
Career summary
Grouping Span Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 5 Ct St
v India 1996-2008 12 438 123 20.85 1 0 - - 0 18 0
in India 1996-2008 12 438 123 20.85 1 0 - - 0 18 0
in Asia 1996-2008 12 438 123 20.85 1 0 - - 0 18 0
away 1996-2008 12 438 123 20.85 1 0 - - 0 18 0
year 1996 1 27 14 13.50 0 - - - - 3 0
year 1998 3 105 60 21.00 0 - - - - 3 0
year 2001 3 17 11 3.40 0 0 - - 0 7 0
year 2004 1 23 12 11.50 0 - - - - 2 0
year 2008 4 266 123 38.00 1 0 - - 0 3 0
season 1996/97 1 27 14 13.50 0 - - - - 3 0
season 1997/98 3 105 60 21.00 0 - - - - 3 0
season 2000/01 3 17 11 3.40 0 0 - - 0 7 0
season 2004/05 1 23 12 11.50 0 - - - - 2 0
season 2008/09 4 266 123 38.00 1 0 - - 0 3 0
*RT Ponting 2004-2008 5 289 123 32.11 1 0 - - 0 5 0
*MA Taylor 1996-1998 4 132 60 18.85 0 - - - - 6 0
*SR Waugh 2001-2001 3 17 11 3.40 0 0 - - 0 7 0
is captain 2004-2008 5 289 123 32.11 1 0 - - 0 5 0
is not captain 1996-2001 7 149 60 12.41 0 0 - - 0 13 0
is not keeper 1996-2008 12 438 123 20.85 1 0 - - 0 18 0
won the toss 1996-2008 6 253 123 23.00 1 0 - - 0 11 0
lost the toss 1998-2008 6 185 87 18.50 0 0 - - 0 7 0
won toss & batted 1996-2008 5 253 123 25.30 1 0 - - 0 8 0
won toss & fielded 2001-2001 1 0 0 0.00 0 - - - - 3 0
lost toss & fielded 1998-2008 6 185 87 18.50 0 0 - - 0 7 0
matches batting first 1996-2008 5 253 123 25.30 1 0 - - 0 8 0
matches fielding first 1998-2008 7 185 87 16.81 0 0 - - 0 10 0
1st team innings 1996-2008 12 364 123 30.33 1 0 - - 0 10 0
2nd team innings 1996-2008 12 74 17 8.22 0 0 - - 0 8 0
1st match innings 1996-2008 12 203 123 40.60 1 0 - - 0 4 0
2nd match innings 1996-2008 12 161 87 23.00 0 0 - - 0 6 0
3rd match innings 1996-2008 12 50 17 12.50 0 0 - - 0 7 0
4th match innings 1996-2008 11 24 12 4.80 0 - - - - 1 0
won match 1998-2001 2 16 16 8.00 0 - - - - 5 0
lost match 1996-2008 8 195 60 12.18 0 0 - - 0 10 0
drawn match 2008-2008 2 227 123 75.66 1 0 - - 0 3 0
won fielding first 1998-2001 2 16 16 8.00 0 - - - - 5 0
lost batting first 1996-2001 4 113 60 14.12 0 0 - - 0 7 0
lost fielding first 1998-2008 4 82 24 10.25 0 - - - - 3 0
drawn batting first 2008-2008 1 140 123 70.00 1 - - - - 1 0
drawn fielding first 2008-2008 1 87 87 87.00 0 0 - - 0 2 0
only match in series 1996-1996 1 27 14 13.50 0 - - - - 3 0
1st match in series 1998-2008 3 160 123 32.00 1 - - - - 5 0
2nd match in series 1998-2008 3 82 60 13.66 0 0 - - 0 3 0
3rd match in series 1998-2008 3 114 87 28.50 0 0 - - 0 5 0
4th match in series 2004-2008 2 55 24 13.75 0 - - - - 2 0
Coming to truf sya, you say that Indian pitches are batsman friendly pitches, then why ponting failed so miserably in India.
Also you have said Indian pitches have become flatter in last 10 years.
Look at Ponting’s record in last 10 years in India
season 2000/01 3 17 11 3.40 0 0 - - 0 7 0
season 2004/05 1 23 12 11.50 0 - - - - 2 0
season 2008/09 4 266 123 38.00 1 0 - - 0 3 0
Since 2000, when Indian batting has prospered, Ponting has played in 8 test matches and 14 innings, scoring 316 runs at average of just above 20.
Ponting has played at Mumbai( decent batsman paradise, but there is always a test result on or before fifth day afternoon), Chennai ( Batsman and spinner’s paradise, Warne picked his only five wicket haul in India at chennai), Calcutta( many people know the epic game in 2001) and Bangalore( only place where he scored test ecentury in India).
If Ponting scored runs at an average of 20, then how come, Truf saya can say that Indian pitches are batsman’s friendly pitches. If Truf saya is a professional journalist, he should take note of the facts provided by me and should add to his article.
see
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/7133.html?class=1;home_or_away=2;host=6;opposition=6;result=1;result=2;result=4;template=results;type=allround;view=match
More facts to come
I am not like other Sachin fans. I provide facts which you people can never deny it. More shockers to come for ponting, kallis, sangakarra , jayawardena fans.
Dave1 said | November 29th 2009 @ 2:05pm | Report comment
Rock Music is different from Cricket. Cricket is a game where there is a winner loser or it is a draw.
Rock Music is not necessarily a contest with a clear winner.
Donthaveaclue said | November 29th 2009 @ 2:25pm | Report comment
Dave1: cricket might have winners and losers but we’re discussing individuals here. There is not much doubt about the Australians being the strongest team of the past decade but the reason there are hundreds of conflicting comments here is that it’s much more subjective when it comes to ranking the best players.
ankur mathur said | November 28th 2009 @ 4:51pm | Report comment
now if u can pls compare odi records of sachin ponting
n even bradman is nothign in front f sachin………he played 4-5 test per year n rested all time
he did not play on many different conditions
india n wi n sa n pak n nz were all minnows apart from aus n wng n new to cricket
so bradman had easy runs
bradman played only on few grounds of eng n aus n conditions r almost same
every player has a particular team liking n bradman had it for eng,
so u cant say bradman was great….he is been made a great by media…..he was above avg n may be good
Dave1 said | November 29th 2009 @ 2:02pm | Report comment
If it was so easy back in Bradmans time how come no one else averaged 99.94
Donthaveaclue said | November 28th 2009 @ 6:25pm | Report comment
I think those who’re relying on proving the superiority of one player based on tearing down another are missing the point. For purely aesthetic reasons some batsmen will be liked better than others. To English supporters, Collingwood is far more valuable to his team tham Mark Waugh ever was to the Aussies but for neutral observers, watching Mark Waugh in full flow would trump many other experiences. There is a reason why Shivnaraine Chanderpaul hasn’t been named in the debate so far. But ask a West Indies supporter how vital he has been to that lineup.
The point here is not that Ponting scored x more runs in that period between 2001 and 2004. The point is, as observers of cricket, not beginning with statistics, who do we think are the best? To then step through their statistics to not say “A sucked, B is great” but to identify the strengths that each of them showed. I am an Indian supporter but I’ve been up at 3am many a time to watch Ponting on hard bouncy pitches for his backfoot play. It would be silly to argue that there is a better player of the pull/hook in this generation. However, based on my ODI analysis atleast, the ranking is :
Tendulkar
Ponting
Pietersen
Lara
Gilchrist
Gibbs
Sehwag
http://outsideedge.wordpress.com/2009/08/23/the-best-odi-batsmen/
davido said | November 28th 2009 @ 7:08pm | Report comment
Given the high degree of respect shown in this blog by Indian and Australian Fans to each other (and I am not being sarcastic)…
Can I ask the question, are we all friends again? Because, from my perspective, these two nations are now the future of cricket.
deepa said | November 28th 2009 @ 7:29pm | Report comment
Now davido is running from debate.
If you want to end this debate, Truf saya AND DAILY ROAR must accept all his provided here and ask netizens sorry for portraying Sachin in such bad state.
Truf Saya, its let to you to finish the debate.
deepa said | November 28th 2009 @ 7:32pm | Report comment
Truf saya you have told kallis, jayawardena and sangakkara have better batting averages than sachin.
And you have told ,” These so-called experts are vulnerable in a variety of ways. For instance, you can dispute the credibility of their views by bringing forth facts”
Now Truf saya, I am going to dispute the credibilty of your view by providing facts here.
So I come to your way of providing facts
Sachin Record against australia (total, home and away, if you want to check his record in austraila, look at my previous post)
period tests runs highest score batting avg. 100s wkts best bowling bowling average 5 wkts catches
1991-2008 29 2748 241* 56.08 10 11 3/31 51.36 0 19
Kallis record against australia
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/45789.html?class=1;home_or_away=1;home_or_away=2;opposition=2;result=1;result=2;result=4;template=results;type=allround;view=match
period tests runs h.s bat.ave 100s wkts best bowling ave. catches
1997-2009 24 1664 114 40.58 4 48 3/22 36.37 0 29
jayawardenas record against australia
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/49289.html?class=1;home_or_away=1;home_or_away=2;opposition=2;template=results;type=allround;view=match
period tests runs h.s bat.ave 100s
1999-2007 10 581 104 32.27 1 - - - - 11 0
snagakkara record against australia
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/50710.html?class=1;home_or_away=1;home_or_away=2;opposition=2;result=1;result=2;result=4;template=results;type=allround;view=match
period tests runs h.s bat.ave. 100s catches stumps
2004-2007 6 503 192 41.91 1 - - - - 14 4
So its clear, Scahin scored 10 centuries and hit 2748 runs against australia in 29 tests at average exceeding 55.
Kallis scored 4 centuries and hit 1664 runs against australia in 24 tests at average of 40
Jayawardena scored 1 century and hit 591 runs aginst australia in 10 tests at dismal average of 32
Sangakara scored 1 century and hit 503 runs against australia in 6 tests at an average of 41.
I have given facts here, Mr. Saya. How come you can say that kallis, sanga or jaya are better batsman than sachin, when all three had not done well against Australia which was the world’s dominant team in 1990s to 2007(WARNE,MCGRATH RETIRED) and still continue to be dominating force in world cricket.
Ashtung said | November 28th 2009 @ 8:30pm | Report comment
Harbhajan too got a match ban for that.
Anyway, let’s put an end to all this. I propose a vote for the batsman you reckon to be the favorite. The only catch is, you cannot vote for a player from your own national side, i.e., Indians will have to pick someone other than Sachin and Aussies can’t pick Ponting.
What I want to show is that Sachin will be picked more often, once people are free from patriotic inclinations, and hence is definitely more popular than Ponting.
My pick will be Lara, solely for the 2 innings against Australia n the 08-09 season (Frank Worrell Trophy)
Sagar said | November 28th 2009 @ 10:51pm | Report comment
To each his own opinion, but your 2 factors-time and playing in India don’t speak much for you. Playing in Australia, England, or Srilanka, Tendulkar has a slightly better average than playing in India and would have scored more runs than playing in India. In last 10 years, playing in Australia Tendulkar has a better average than Ricky Ponting (in Australia). Contrary to media drivel, batting isn’t easy in India compared to everywhere else, Australia boasts the Adelaide track which is just as batsman friendly as many Indian grounds. However, bowling for bowlers has been tough for fast bowlers, and thanks to answering the criticism of spin-friendly tracks, now they don’t assist spin bowlers either.
Al said | November 28th 2009 @ 11:33pm | Report comment
Guys
i have posted a comment up here somewhere CLEARLY showing that Maradona was overrated.
I have not received a single reply.
If you can convince me that the stats i have provided show that this is actually NOT so, only then will this line of debate of yours have any sense.
Otherwise all your attempts to use stats ring hollow.
Ashtung said | November 29th 2009 @ 5:22pm | Report comment
@Dave: The quotes from the African only goes on to point a finger as branding asians as a whole as racist. I so wish this should not have started. We were discussing individuals. Just to hit back at you, we asians, might be prone to name-calling aimed at other races, BUT WE CERTAINLY DO NOT BEAT THEM UP LIKE YOU GUYS ARE DOING TO INDIANS IN AUSTRALIA. And don’t you claim “it’s just a few individuals”, because I’ll say, “same here”, and reiterate, ” FOREIGNERS ARE NOT ASSAULTED IN INDIA DUE TO THEIR RACE”
As for other points, what Harbhajan did was not really OK and he did get punished for that. But all I wanted to point out was, Sachin was not wrong their in getting Harbhajan’s back, a friend and a teammate. Aussies do that too.
And if “Kumble’s words were a disgrace”, I think you should start reading the newspaper. Ponting’s approach in that particular match was condemned by every important cricketer of past and critics. Even CA had a few harsh words for him. On the other hand, Kumble is the gentlest of human beings who is liked by all and sundry.
Replying to all your comments is as good as banging my head against the wall. In stead of pointing fingers at a race or dignified individuals, you would do better to shut up and slightly more balanced people do the talking.
@Other Aussies: I do not mean to offend you guys, who have kept it about players. It was just for myopics like Dave. I am really sorry to have brought that up.
Craig said | November 30th 2009 @ 2:26pm | Report comment
Ashtung,
i am Australian. I haven’t beat up anyone from another race.
Sachin was wrong, he lied. Lying is wrong, especially (if you are an international cricketer) in front of an ICC judiciary. Please provide instances when Australian cricketers have done likewise.
Ponting’s approach was not condemned by every important cricketer of past and critics. Kumble is not the gentlest of human beings who is liked by all and sundry. His comments were pompous, mis-guided, and incendiary.
Your’s (whatever it may be) is not a race of dignified individuals, or you would not have posted such an exagerated and incorrect comment, so dismissive of other’s views, nor would you be advising others to shut up.
Dave1 has stated and repeated facts which are in the public arena. Your ramblings are based on nothing but emotion.
Dave1 said | November 30th 2009 @ 4:52pm | Report comment
No the article is meant ot point out that Nayan and Vijay may be wrong
NAYAN PRAKASH said “…..Monkey is not considered a racial slur in India…….”
Vijay….”…… In India no one thinks calling someone a “monkey” is racist…….. ”
I gave them an example that showed maybe they are incorrect.
Also, just because Sachin has a friend doesn’t mean he can do whatever he wants.
Again this is the issue
On January 12 it was reported that
http://www.smh.com.au/news/cricket/all-deals-are-off-declare-indians/2008/01/11/1199988590669.html?page=2
“……Meanwhile, the Indians have laughed off suggestions that Andrew Symonds misheard Harbhajan Singh during their clash, which resulted in racism charges being successfully brought against the spinner.
Websites and gossips have claimed Singh said “m** k*”, an obscenity in the Hindu language, and that the Australian all-rounder believed he had been called a “monkey”, which led to an official complaint.
But the Indians will claim no such thing at the appeal, which is yet to be scheduled, and will maintain that nothing of the sort was said by Harbhajan…..”
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/cricket/mystery-of-mistaken-hindi-insult/story-e6frfg8o-1111115448189
“………..Harbhajan Singh did not use Adelaide defence
February 01, 2008
ACCEPTED as evidence of his innocence in Adelaide, Harbhajan Singh and India did not raise the “mistaken Hindi insult” defence once at the original ICC hearing in Sydney.
Sources present at the four-hour hearing on January 6 confirm that neither Harbhajan nor Sachin Tendulkar mentioned the possibility of the spinner calling Symonds a “teri maki” and not a monkey.
Despite the likelihood ICC match referee Mike Procter could have resolved the issue in Sydney with such an explanation, India did not bother to alert him to the apparent Hindi insult and instead only denied Harbhajan had used the word monkey.
Indian manager Chetan Chauhan also reportedly stressed in the hearing that monkeys were sacred in India.
Only several days after Harbhajan was suspended for three matches for racism, did it emerge from the Indian camp the words “t*** m***i” could have been the source of a misunderstanding.
Even revelations in the Herald Sun on January 12 of these words were reportedly “laughed off within the Indian party” as rumour and gossip…………”
Ashtung said | November 29th 2009 @ 5:56pm | Report comment
Ponting has an avg. of 0.4 more than Sachin in a 13-14 years span, while Sachin has played for 20 years. Let me see Ponting play that long and only then can we compare. Even the gritty Steve Waugh did not survive that long. Nobody does.
By the time Sachin was 14 (around 03) years old in International Cricket, he was leaps and bounds ahead of the rest. Let’s see how long Ponting lasts and let’s only then compare the COLD, HARD STATS. Until then, 20 years with that sort of average is anyday better than 14 years.
Wylie said | November 30th 2009 @ 12:18pm | Report comment
Note to self – never mention Sachin Tendulkar in a sports blog or you will be overwhelmed by posts displaying irrational Indian (and Australian) nationalism.
This is why I gave up reading cricket forums long ago. It’s just a game fellas.
Ashtung said | November 30th 2009 @ 3:41pm | Report comment
@Craig: It was not emotional. Dave accused a whole country by quoting the experiences of an african in India. I just replied to that mentioning that. I am sure that neither you, nor Dave have beat anyone up but the COLD, HARD FACT is that Indians have been attacked. I only wish that he keeps these things to himself in stead of taking pot-shots at culture, people etc.
Well, I agree lying is wrong, but is it OK to claim grassed catches, in spite of a pre-series agreement? Correct me if I am wrong, but that’s worse. Lying and cheating. and you cannot deny that Aussies did take a few like that and hence won the Sydney test. Just to remind you, Rashid Latif got a 5 match ban once, for claiming a grassed catch, while the umpires in Sydney were only too happy to take Ponting’s word for it, when they had the 3rd umpire to fall back on.
And lease stop bringing in the race. I alreeady apologised to other individuals. N yes, in my race we ask others to shut up, rather than ask about the taste of a team-mate’s private parts.
You must really watch the video-link I hae posted somewhere. You will know a little more about the saintly Michael Slater.
Go through the Wisden Almanack report of that test and you will know the difference between high-handedness and being polite. Your heroes, Ponting, Symonds and company are castigated by a very, very neitral observer here.
Ashtung said | November 30th 2009 @ 3:49pm | Report comment
Focus on the words, “Took Ponting’s word for it”, “Clark claimed a grassed-catch” and “Ganguly walked due to a pre-match agreement”
It might interest you to know that England and SA captains have since refused to enter such an agreement with Ponting, while the same Graeme Smith had no qualms in reaching a similar understanding with the Indians.
Cheating? Lying? or in Ponting’s words, “Simply pushing the limits?” I’d definitely not go with the last.
Ashtung said | November 30th 2009 @ 3:55pm | Report comment
http://www.cricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/365670.html
Here’s the link to the report. Now I believe any neutral observer will side by Kumble on that. But if you are agreater authority than Widen, I’d be glad to hear your views on it.
Craig said | November 30th 2009 @ 4:35pm | Report comment
The author is Greg Baum, not Wisden.
Where does it state Australia were in the wrong? There are a lot of mentions of umpiring errors. There are mentions of appealing. Gamesmanship? That’s a highly emotive accusation, and extremely hard to prove. What exactly does it even mean? And is it wrong? If so, can a team be penalised for it?
Clarke refused to walk? How did that all work out for him? Is it in the rules that one must walk? Was he not given out anyway? So how was the result influenced there?
“….and then claimed a disputed low slip catch himself on the final day. Ganguly, the batsman, felt the ball did not carry but, after Benson gave him out without consulting Bucknor at square leg, he honoured the pre-series agreement between the captains that the fielder’s word would be taken “. So tha ball was hit to Clarke, who claimed a catch, and Ponting agreed the catch was taken, and Ganguly honoured the pre-series agreement between the captains that the fielder’s word would be taken. So where is the problem? Why is there whinging?
Do i think India got the rough end of the pineapple in this particular test? Of course. But it wasn’t a one way street. Nor was it for the rest of the series, or other series for that matter. Tendulkar was plum LBW in the 30’s on his way to a 150. Swings and roundabouts.
yaanni said | December 14th 2009 @ 1:07am | Report comment
“The author is Greg Baum, not Wisden.”
Really Craig, you are one of a kind.Everywhere in that article, right from the first word in the Browser heading to the copyright notice, it is mentioned “WISDEN”. Greg Baum is the author for sure but the article comes out from the Wisden stables and hence has the reputation of Wisden behind it. So simple to understand.
Every point you make here is like the typical Aussie thing, “WTF”.
Gamesmanship:- So what if the Aussie did not adhere to it, WTF?
Clarke not walking: So what, it is not written somewhere, WTF?
Pre series agreement, Clarke claiming a catch which was at least ambiguous, Ponting believed him, Ganguly complained but “HONOURED” the agreement. yet he and India were whining later, WTF?
I had read a post by you somewhere else in this article about holding one Ashtung as being rudely dismissive of others opinions (esp Dave1) and merely giving out his personal whins.
Craig, what are you doing here? Are you not yourself giving out just your personal thoughts?
As for the last point you made, what irks most of the Indians is not that the decisions went against India but that while the very blatantly obvious dismissals were not given in their case, even the very iffy ones went against their batsman, Dravid in the 2nd inns for eg.
Btw, you got a link of that Sachin being plumb LBW in the 30’s thing? Can you prove it? Or are you again giving out your personal opinion?
Neil said | November 30th 2009 @ 4:05pm | Report comment
1) Are my eyes playing tricks? The Aussies of all people cribbing about sledging? Oh, oh of course it is “racism”…do they even realise what shiite their players have got away with for years and years? As others have rightly said- what a bunch of hypocrites.
2)For those keen on stats. Lets have someone score 30,000 International runs and 87 International hundreds.
Ponting or anyone, whether they play for 10,20,30 years doesn’t matter…….let someone score these first….then we can even START talking. Comparing Ponting to Tendulkar?! Jesus- you people have lost it.
An average bowler like Harbhajan Singh makes Ponting look worse than a club cricketer.
Craig said | November 30th 2009 @ 4:07pm | Report comment
Ashtung,
Dave1 made no such accusation against a “whole country”. He merely highlighted another incident to assert that calling a person of negroid appearance a “monkey” is racist whether it be done in India, Australia or anywhere else. Shouldn’t the definition of what is considered racist or not be determined by the victim, not the accused…..i.e wouldn’t Andrew Symonds be in a better position to determine whether being called a monkey was racist? If you consider that a pot-shot at your culture, perhaps your culture is not as robust as you would like to think.
Yes, Indians have been attacked in Australia. I am wondering how that is even remotely relevant to anything in this discussion.
Claiming grassed catches? I am going to assume you are referring to the Clarke catch at slip, and the Ponting catch in close.
Firstly, despite the hysterical rants of Sunil Gavaskar, the Clarke catch was not grassed, it was a fair catch.
The Ponting catch, i agree was not a catch. Nor was it given as out. Ponting was well within his rights to appeal for it. The ball was taken simultaneously as it also touched the ground. Darrell Hair was asked to comment on it in the aftermath, and he claimed he would have given it out. I mention this only in the relevance that Hair had recently been adjudged amongst the ICC umpires as having the highest score in regards to his knowledge of cricketing rules. In reading the rules to the letter of the law, i would assert that Hair was wrong, but it merely highlights that if such a highly accliamed judge as Hair can get it wrong, Ponting should hardly be hung out to dry over the matter.
Regardless, those were on field, spur of the moment matters. I would regard Tendulkar’s dishonesty in front of an ICC judiciary as being worse, but that is my opinion.
Australia did not win the test through those decisions. A, the decision to give Ganguly out caught by Clarke was the correct one, and B, the decision where Ponting claimed a catch was deemed not out anyway, so had no bearing on the result. I would suggest your complete denial of India’s pathetic efforts to thwart Michael Clarke’s gentle off-spinners late on day 5 of that test smacks somewhat of straw clutching.
If bringing up race so offends you, one must ask, why did you bother to do it?
I am unable to watch links of Michael Slater that you have posted. Please detail what they refer to. Are they of him racially vilifying another player?
Please post the link to the Wisden article also. Perhaps we can compare neutral observers.
Abhishek said | November 30th 2009 @ 4:16pm | Report comment
Agree with that. If the decisions were wrong, umpires are to blame. Whether India or lost ‘coz of those decisions is something no one knows. But using that as an excuse for a loss, is well, loser-ly.
Whether Tendulkar lying was as dishonest, or less, or more, is anybody’s opinion. I, personally, am not complaining about it.
Milind Panditrao said | November 30th 2009 @ 5:03pm | Report comment
Agree 100% with Author. Indians and especially indian commentators are crazy about Tendulkar, the same shot by Tendulkar will get 8 times more praise than Dravid.
Tendulkar is great but not the greatest and I am not saying anything about if he is greater than Ponting or Sanga or anybody else. Point is they all are great. Though I am parcial to Dravid.
I would say as a Indian fan, Sehwag, Dravid are keys to Indian victories than Tendulkar especially since 2001. Unfortunately in earlier years Tendlya was whole and sole for Indian team and I think that took toll on him. Though I have seen some positive signs off late from Tendlya as far as match finishing is concerned.
Ashtung said | November 30th 2009 @ 5:28pm | Report comment
My apologies to Dave. I took your comments out of context. Sorry for that.
I have watched that claimed catch many times over and every time I wonder as to how can anyone even appeal for that. You should watch the video. The Slater video shows him condemning Harbhajan but when Tony Greig reminds him of his actions during a certain match, he makes excuses like, ” I was having family problem; It was in the heat of the moment etc.”
Going by the facts, Ponting perhaps did no wrong as the ICC did not set up a tribunal for those instances. If you happen to watch those videos, t is amply clear that to Ponting, on both occassions, it was clear that the ball had already touched the ground. I request you to watch them. But he certainly did not honour the agreement which is LYING. If that’s not enough, perhaps you could explain why Graeme Smith and Strauss refused similar agreements with Pontng but Smith did agree to have it with Indians.
I only wanted to point out that you can’t say that you lost respect for Sachin over that. Harbhajan said somethig, got the ban and that’s that. Sachin, perhaps lied. All I want to point out is that worse thing have been done by others but I don’t see guys ‘losing respect for them’.
For instance, Ponting’s links with the bookies. Steve Waugh ordering the curator to fill up a rough patch on the field (this one did not create rumbles as both teams agreed to play it down). Chappell ordering the underarm ball.
It was one isolated incident and you cannot judge Sachin’s character based on that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bwn-uAWdoQ
Just watch this video mate. The least he is doing is lying.
Craig said | December 3rd 2009 @ 3:39pm | Report comment
Rubbish Ashtung, the video does not clearly show the ball hitting the ground in the instance of the Clarke catch, and in neither video is it amply clear that to Ponting the ball had already touched the ground. You saying so does not make it true.
You are no position to tell me how and why i lost respect for Tendulkar. It is arrogant to suggest otherwise. I DID lose respect for Sachin because he DID lie.
Ponting’s links with bookies? What, on-track at Wentworth Park in Sydney? Has this discussion sunk to depths so low that you’ve resorted to making stuff up.
I heard Sachin crashed his car the other night ‘cos his missus had just clubbed him in the head with his favourite willow after she found out he’s was having an affair with Sourav Ganguly!
Al said | November 30th 2009 @ 5:53pm | Report comment
If Tendulkar did lie, I am so very glad that he did. Him, the Indian team and several other teams have had to put up with an immense lot of garbage from the Aus team for a very long time. Apparently the Aus team can say and do what they like- but can’t take it.
Dave1 said | December 20th 2009 @ 2:59pm | Report comment
I on the other hand don’t think he should be able to do whatever he wants. I’d prefer him to do the right thing.
Neil said | November 30th 2009 @ 6:10pm | Report comment
Let someone (anyone) play International cricket for 20 years, score over 30,000 International runs and 88 International hundreds first. Whether it be Ponting or anyone.
Then, can we even START comparing ponting to tendulkar.
Even an average bowler like harbhajan singh makes ponting look like a club cricketer ( actually that is probably the reason ponting tried to get harbhajan banned for the remaining tests)
Freud of Football said | December 1st 2009 @ 12:18am | Report comment
Well done lads, 300+ comments on a cricket article, pity it’s on such a banal issue nevertheless, it’s good to see the Indians coming out of the woodwork!
ABH said | December 1st 2009 @ 12:24am | Report comment
LOL.Yeah bro. only surprising thing is the pakis havent jumped eagerly to denigrate tendulkar and hoist lara!
same old theme.
good fun though…
Freud of Football said | December 1st 2009 @ 12:28am | Report comment
eh Bro!
Vinay, I hope you’ll reprimand ABH here for his petulance, I know plenty of Pakistani’s who have nothing but the utmost respect for Tendulkar, they might hat India but “credit where credit is due”.
ABH said | December 1st 2009 @ 1:30am | Report comment
Oh well, perhaps I was referring to the nutty few.cheers
rugbyguy said | December 1st 2009 @ 6:06pm | Report comment
cold hard stats show tendulka is getting on a bit, he may not have been at his best in recent times but one look at the all time career run total for either test or ODI then it becomes plainly obvious how good tendulka is
Ashtung said | December 3rd 2009 @ 12:42am | Report comment
@Al,ABH etc.: I think the Aussies have got the message. Thumbs up for the stats. Cheers
Interestingly, since I posted the video link for Ponting’s catch appeal, there haven’t been any comments on Sachin’s ‘character’
Freud of Football said | December 3rd 2009 @ 2:12am | Report comment
There’s nothing to comment about on Sachin’s “character”, he lied pure and simple so don’t come spouting here how Ponting is a cheat because you feel aggrieved by attacks on your little “sacred cow”. Actually, they’re not even attacks, apparently you just can’t see how any person on earth doesn’t think the sun shines out of Tendulkar’s arse.
I watched your video, whether the ball hit the glove is questionable, due to the angle it spat out away from the Batsman and the position Ponting was standing in he is bound to think it did however he certainly caught the ball, his hand and arm made contact with the ground before the ball did and as such it was a clear catch.
You said; “It was one isolated incident and you cannot judge Sachin’s character based on that.” – So it’s ok for you to do it with Ponting or Slater, but not for anyone to do the same to Tendulkar?
You’ve listed Chappell’s underarm which was decades ago and within the rules at the time and also noted; “For instance, Ponting’s links with the bookies.” – His nickname is Punter for christ’s sakes, he loves gambling, what, you think in all that time he wouldn’t know the name of a single bookie?
“Steve Waugh ordering the curator…” – I don’t even particulary like Steve but did you see the Delhi pitch in the ODI game a while back? You think India bowling 31 overs out of 50 with spin is normal? No, the pitch was doctored to hell so don’t start talking about Australian’s talking to curators, Australian pitches always play the same and there is a good mixture of spinning tracks and bouncy wickets, in India the pitches fall apart so you can open with a spinner.
Also, if you want “compare the COLD, HARD STATS” – Ponting has won 66.4% of the tests he’s played in, Sachin’s won 32.1%.
Any self respecting cricketer would give up all their personal accolades to win the things Ponting has won, 3 WC’s, Ashes’ series, Champions Trophy, World Record for most wins in tests etc etc etc.
What has Tendulkar done? Sweet FA. He might be a great individual but in a team sport, success isn’t measured by your individual stats. Greg Russell made the point that Indian’s don’t care if they lose as long as Sachin bats well, well Australian’s hate to lose and if they do, stats don’t mean a thing – that’s the difference, the mindset.
So come back and argue how brilliant Tendulkar is, the Aussies will happily take it because they will continue to wipe the floor with India with it’s 1 billion+ cricket fanatics for decades to come as they can’t see that they need to worry about the team, not the individual.
ABH said | December 3rd 2009 @ 3:30pm | Report comment
LOL.was just waiting for the pakis to come out of the woodwork!
Ashtung said | December 3rd 2009 @ 4:11am | Report comment
Freud of Football
You joined this debate a little late and seem to have missed out on a few things. It was not I who started questioning characters but an aussie buddy of yours. He pointed out one incident and I then listed out a few more. Personally, I like Ponting’s swagger and till sometime back wished that Indians learnt something from the Aussies.
Talking about rules; if Sachin so ‘blatantly’ lied, do you think the ICC is run by some nuts who could not see through it when every Australian could. If that is the case, then the ICC, World Bank, UNO and every other major organisation in the world should be run by them since they are obviously sharper in spotting the missing links.
About the Ponting catch, either you are getting to watch a doctored video or I am, since I just cannot figure out an angle from where you could say that the catch was clean. From what I saw, it was clear that he ‘had’ to ground the ball to gain control of himseelf. About the links with bookies, it was much more than exchanging phone numbers. you seem to have conviniently forgotten that he got paid by a bookie and not for winning a bet.
Are you really so blind as to defend Chappell?? I agree what he did was within the rules and hence he was not punished for that. Should not the same yardstick apply to Sachin? If he was on the wrong side of the laws, he would have been punished. It is a 2 way street. Morality is not only others’ burden.
Coming to the pitches, preparing spinners’ pitches is called ‘HOME ADVANTAGE’ and there is nothing wrong in that. Filling up patches on the last day of a test match is NOT ALLLOWED. The ICC says so. That filled up patch could have had an impact on the result of the match. The issue did not blow up because (surprise, surprise) the Indian senior players chose to play it down.
You are right about the comment on self-respecting cricketer. But those laurels are not exactly on sale, are they? There winning percentages cannot be compared because of the difference in the other 10. Going by your logic, Justin Langer was a better batsman than Lara because his winning percentage is higher. I am sure you cannot support that now, can you?
Now for the interesting part. ‘Sun shining out of Sachin’s arse’. Well if Aussies could believe that there are suns shining outside of Aussie arses then why is there even a debate??? The topic: ‘Sachin is overrated’. Indians say, “Load of crap. Sachin is not overrated and you need to dig a little in to the stats” .Aussies say; ‘Ponting is better.” Now who brings Ponting in to picture when the discussion should have been about Sachin.
BTW, your comments about ’sacred cow’ and 1 billion people were in bad taste and uncalled for. I made a comment about race too but promptly apologised realising my mistake. However, it’s up to you. I request you not to take pot shots on culture.
Freud of Football said | December 3rd 2009 @ 5:43am | Report comment
I didn’t join the discussion too late, I was active before yourself, I just didn’t see any need to throw fuel on to an already raging fire.
“if Sachin so ‘blatantly’ lied, do you think the ICC is run by some nuts who could not see through it when every Australian could.” – I think the ICC is the BCCI in disguise, as does most of the world. If India didn’t get their way in “monkeygate” they were going home, CA and the ICC could hardly afford that so the Indians got there way.
Re Ponting’s catch. Look at about 29-30 seconds, you’ll see he has total control of the ball (which is enough for a catch in anyone’s book) and when he lands, the arm-hand touch the ground before the hand rotates and the ball takes a chunk of dirt. It’s clear as day, you might miss it with your novelty-sachin-fan-goggles on though.
Do I need to defend Chappell? No, as I said it was decades ago, if the Kiwi’s can move on (and they did before the Aussies) then I hardly think it’s worth some Indian bloke who is trying to defend Sachin Tendulkar’s demigod status to mention.
Pitches. Ok. By now I realise you have no idea how to be objective and barely any of what you’re talking about.
India doesn’t play with “home advantage”, India doctor’s their pitches. In Aus you’ve got the SCG for spinners, the MCG to a lesser extent but it also spins and Adelaide Oval spins towards the end but it is predominantly a batting track, same as Hobart while the Gabba and the Waca are both known for their bounce. 6 pitches, 2 for spinners, 2 for the quicks, 2 for batsman and what does India throw up, pitches where everything spins, 100% of the time, bouncers barely make it to hip-height etc etc. – their is a difference but apparently you can’t see the line.
I didn’t say Ponting was a better batsman than Tendulkar, I gave you a fact which meant more than any other, when Ponting plays, he wins 66.4% of the time, far far more then Tendulkar. Any self respecting cricketer would give up the records for the success of the Aussies over the past 15 years, you, being Indian, measure success on an individual level. Me, with my win-everything attitude think it’s a failure if the team doesn’t win, I don’t care a great deal for Allan Border’s records, why?
Because AB only won 32% of his tests, without him Australia would have lost more but he didn’t give them the glory that the country demanded, he holds (or held) numerous records but you won’t catch people in Aus banging on about him constantly or his brilliance in scoring so many runs, playing so many tests, captaining so many times. No. Australia weren’t successful under Border, it’s not a period we will bang on about even if he played so well as an individual.
Lara (24% win rate) was better than Langer (win rate 66.6%), so what, Langer will be remembered for far greater things, he’ll go down as part of one of the all-time great opening pairs, for clean-sweeping the Ashes, not for anything he did as an individual but as a part of an amazing team. Lara will be remembered for his 400, and then, when it is surpassed? He was part of nothing special other than his own individual feats.
Some goes for Ponting over Tendulkar. It’s the Australian players who cricketers want to be, it’s the fans who want to be Tendulkar or Lara.
“sacred cow” = Tendulkar is not potshot at any culture. “Sacred cow” has wider applications in the English language than insulting Indians or Hindu’s – http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sacred+cow . It was meant to mean that Sachin Tedulkar is seen as untouchable, he can blatantly lie and no-one will care as long as he keeps scoring runs for India – read what I wrote and you’ll be able to interpret that rather than trying to make me out to be something I’m not.
Craig said | December 3rd 2009 @ 4:03pm | Report comment
Ashtung, when did Ponting ever get paid by a bookie for something other than winning a bet?
Who said Ponting was better than Sachin? All i have read is of an argument over whether Sachin is overated. There is more argument from you and your brethren that Ponting is NOT better. Fine, that’s a valid opinion. But it’s not what the article is about.
Craig said | December 3rd 2009 @ 4:09pm | Report comment
could be wrong, but pretty sure it was a New Zealander who was the first on this link to quetion Sachin’s character. How cool is that!
Uh-oh….watch out, Ashtung and his crew will be telling us how crap Hadlee and Crowe are now.
ashtung said | December 3rd 2009 @ 7:13am | Report comment
I won’t discuss ‘that’ catch anymore because we clearly cannot reach a common ground… While I might be accused of wearing Sachin-fan-shades, I’d rather believe that you are wearing Ricky-tinted-glasses… It’s just that the law of averages tells me that it’s highly unlikely for an individual or a team to be pushing the rules (to which he has regularly admitted) so many times without getting it wrong even once…
Pitches. Well.. Just because Australia has a good mix, doesn’t mean the world should follow it’s trail… India prepares (or rather used to) prepare pitches which suited them. They are yet to get it right but it’s an improvement… Anyhow, never were the pitches ‘doctored’ as they were not even touched after the toss, let alone on the 5th day (which, i repeat, is what Steve Waugh did)… Indians played down the issue… The thing is, Sachin plays on all that good mix of pitches Australia so sportingly provides but when Ponting comes to India, he becomes a Bhajji bunny… Are Indians a spoilsport now??? Or is it about more than winning when it comes to India????… They are in fact, well within their rights to do so, aren’t they?? The Aussie ways of winning surely applies to others too…
Chappell; I like him… He did something disgraceful but that’s OK because he won you a match… When Sachin lies (if he did), he commits a blasphemy… From my perspective, he showed how much of a TEAM-MAN he is, risking hi image for a team-mate… Aussies, of all, should respect that quality, after all, it’s about the team…
Funnily, Aussies don’t harp about Border but the trophy is Gavaskar-Border trophy… Australia could surely have picked up someone who had won more matches for them??? Taylor, may be???
Lara and Langer: Clearly, you have either not watched cricket in the 90s or you switch off your TV and erase the memories of an Aussie loss… The 400 will be surpassed in time but not the match-winning 200 he scored against Australia or the 80 runs he made with Walsh and Ambrose, again, against Australia will not be repeated…
Coming to Langer, he was a good player, but you just keep going that extra mile to eulogise them… Tell me honestly, do you even know the names of the Bradman 11 or the all-conquering Windies of 70s.. But if you know your cricket, you would have heard of Denis Compton, who once scored a century in a team-score of 180, or Waqar Yunis’s toe-crushers…
Ponting and Sachin, if India happen to win the WC, will still be remebered for more than just that… I am not sure if I agree with the statement ‘cricketers want to be australians’.. They are not good losers n whinge about it…
“Sacred Cows” – My sincere apologies… Blame it on my lack of knowledge of the Queen’s language…
To end it all, We are fighting for points in the grey area and that too, on a topic tangetial to it all… All because someone said he lost respect for Sachin due to the monkeygate and as an Indian, I didn’t like it.. n then it just kept piling on… I don’t personally find either Sachin or Chappell on the wrong in those cases… I admire Ponting but I don’t like his arrogance in wins and those occassional whinges on a loss…
JII said | December 3rd 2009 @ 2:16pm | Report comment
As an Indian, I find it nauseating when some of my fellow Indians try to defend anything and everything to do with Tendulkar. Grow up guys. He is not God. Morally, what he did during the monkeygate was wrong. But, he might have wanted to protect a team-mate. But, there is no point trying to defend it. As for cricketing grounds, Rahul Dravid, Anil Kumble & even Virender Sehwag has won more Test matches for India. In a team game that is what matters. Also, when someone says he wants to play till he scores 15000 test runs, that shows where his priorities lie. It’s the records that he plays plays for. Everything else is incidental.
Justin said | December 3rd 2009 @ 4:48pm | Report comment
Border is one of the greatest Australian players ever, miles in front of Taylor! Taylor wouldnt make a 3rd greatest 11 for AUS…
ABH said | December 3rd 2009 @ 4:17pm | Report comment
Just shows your lopsided prejudice. as with others you have already decided. tendulkar did not say he wants to play till he scores 15000 runs. i suggest u read what he actually said. typical half cocked nonsense on your part.if a guy is approaching a hundred obviously he would like to get one – ask any batsman who ever played the game.
playing for records is when batsmen keep batting on dead pitches without any reason but to score some high scores ,for eg as in antigua.
ashtung said | December 3rd 2009 @ 4:19pm | Report comment
Craig
Quoting Ponting here, “You should not be here, if you are questioning my integrity” – I hope you get the joke here (Ponting said that to a journo, and I borrowed his words)
Link with the bookies: my mistake… He did not take any money…
I am not telling you who to respect and who not to.. I’m just asking you to apply the same yardstick…
I think Sachin deserves every bit of praise showered upon him…
JII
Sachin has repeatedly mentioned that he wants to win the WC for India. I have never heard or read him say that he wants to score 15,000 runs… I am not gonna argue about Sehwag, Dravid and Kumble: Sachin has now slipped in to the role of an accumulator in a team boasting of a strong batting lne-up and his job does not require him to be extraordinary at anything, just keep up the best… If you watched cricket in the 90s, you’d know how many times was he the last man out when all others failed around him… There are others who did that for their respective teams, but they either could not adapt, or did not last this long. Lara was billigerent in the matches he won for Windies, but he was not nearly as consistent…
JII said | December 3rd 2009 @ 4:42pm | Report comment
Ashtung,
Please check this link http://www.indianexpress.com/news/sachin-eyes-15k-test-runs-mark-2011-wc/498872/
See how he has added 2011 WC as an afterthought. Surprising for someone who knows everything about SRT that you haven’t read this before. And FYI, I have been watching cricket since mid 80s. Yes, he was the best batsman in the world in the 90s. But, times have changed. You have to admit it.
ABH said | December 3rd 2009 @ 5:57pm | Report comment
“Sunil Gavaskar has told me that I have to get to 15,000 runs. He said he would be angry with me and would come and catch me if I didn’t. I admire him so much and to score that many would be a terrific achievement, but that is not the only aim,” he said, adding that “to win the World Cup in 2011″ is his another ambition.
“He said he would be angry with me and would come and catch me if I didn’t.” cant see the jest? Infact Gavaskar has gone on record many many years before this that in his opinion a player of tendulkars calibre must score at least 40 hundreds and that he would again “catch tendulkar”………dont get it do u?
Pretty damn clear isnt it. Problem is that you are seeing it through your tinted glasses.
ashtung said | December 3rd 2009 @ 4:57pm | Report comment
A mentor gives him a landmark to keep him going.. What’s wrong with that.. Every player has eyes on personal landmarks; keeps them going as individuals… I have read this before but I also know that he talked about ‘11 WC in 07-08 and I thought’ “He’s gotta be out of his mind. He can’t last that long.” Now he can
I don’t even claim to know everything about him or anyone else for that matter… I just watch a lot of matches…
Freud of Football said | December 3rd 2009 @ 5:59pm | Report comment
Look ashtung, people on The Roar really don’t care about Tendulkar and his greatness, nor do they care about Ponting and his “greatness”, in fact I’ve been quite critical of Ponting, I’m no fan of his captaincy at all and I wouldn’t list him in any “Top 5 players I’d pay to watch” so I certainly don’t own any “Ricky-tinted-glasses”.
You have had your credibility called into question now by a few of us after you’ve made some pretty outlandish comments.
“Ponting and Sachin, if India happen to win the WC, will still be remebered for more than just that… I am not sure if I agree with the statement ‘cricketers want to be australians’.. They are not good losers n whinge about it…”
You have got to be joking me? The English players wouldn’t kill for the success the Aussies have had? Or the Windians or the SAFfers? The Indians maybe not because they’re happy amassing individual records. So no, Australia aren’t good losers because they ALWAYS want to win, they don’t accept defeat, if you beat them then they’ll want to play again and come out and smash you, everyone in Aus is already waiting for the next Ashes series because we are expecting to tear the Poms apart. I’ve said it enough, it’s the mentality and that’s why Aus have been so successful.
I’ll just put in one last word about the pitches.
“Pitches. Well.. Just because Australia has a good mix, doesn’t mean the world should follow it’s trail…” – SAF has a decent mixture too and at least in England, you know what to expect, there is still some variation but they aren’t all keyed for one type of play.
So no, maybe India shouldn’t follow ENG/Aus/SAF’s trail, the ICC should just come in and put really hard regulations down as to the consistency expected and India would fail every time.
davido said | December 3rd 2009 @ 5:05pm | Report comment
Is this thing still going?
GET A LIFE PEOPLE !!
ashtung said | December 3rd 2009 @ 7:53pm | Report comment
I’ll only make some points about the pitches here… India used to prepare dustbowls in the 80s and 90s. Then they started improving and the direct result was India’s improved performance on faster tracks; batsmen playing pacers better, along with quite a few pacers making their mark in International cricket.
So this is a major improvement. Their are still glitches here and there but the BCCI maintains about 45 International cricket ground in a country which is so hot that even maintaining a playable pitch is something of an achievement. The weather makes the nature unpredictable to an extent too.. Throw in the problems of a developing economy like finding skilled manpower, and you might know how difficult it would be to maintain a ‘good mix’ or a sporting track, as you call it… Case in point; in spite of regular throwing up good fast bowlers, pakistan have never had pacer-friendly wickets… But I am not using that as a reason or excuse..
I am not sure which match you are talking about but personally, I don’t see any problem with it unless the ball was spitting out after pitching. The pitches in India range from flat roads to spin-assisting which last the game but never truly pace-friendly. So I don;t think there’s much of an issue with predictability because the flat pitches are now all over the world.
India were reprimanded for the dustbowl against SA in Kanpur but the next match on the pitch; previous match of the ongoing series; had quite a sporting track… The Indian pacer got wickets and so did the spinners. Also, I am not sure but I don’t think if SA have a spin-friendly track and the Australian tracks you are talking about, too have slowed down in the 200s – a phenomenon apparent all around the cricketing world. Neither have SL ever prepared a track for the fast bowlers.
Akshit said | December 3rd 2009 @ 8:13pm | Report comment
Hello,
I have to admit one thing – i am a huge Tendulkar fan, such that in matches in which he is not involved i dont care what India does. Its only Tendulkar who i want to see batting.. Having said that, i am a big fan of Test Cricket and competitive matches always are better..
I personally think that many people above have discounted a lot of factors when considering “who is the best” since 1990’s.. Only 3 players come to mind – Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting.. and a few others like Kallis, Dravids, Hayden (i am a big fan)..
Now, many of the guys above pointed out Indian pitches are the best to play on in the world.. I would say its actually completely false. Yes there are many flat pitches offlate since the last 2 years or so but prior to that if you see 4-5th days of test matches were almost impossible to bat on..
Ponting -> he averages less than 21 in India in 12 Test matches – he has come India i think 4 times? So he failed in India and struck only 1 century last time around)..So the so-called flat pitches of India is totally false.. India has one of the lowest 3rd and 4rt innings team averages all over the world, and this is one of the reasons why Sachin’s second innings totals have been below par – and it was even so when he played in the 90’s when it was just impossible to bat on 4rt and 5th day.
Does this happens in Australia? The wickets reamin the same in australia through the 5 days except maybe in Sydney.. Tendulkar averages more Lara and almost the same as Ponting in Australia and after having played quite a few test matches there – so the stats are not as if its just based on 1 series..? What do you guys have to say to that?
Tendulkar averages more than any other batsman in away test matches.. Ponting averages less than 50 in tests outside Australia.. So shall we say Ponting cant play on all type of wickets? whereas Tenduldar can play in bouncy waca, swingin england, turning sub-continent?
Lara on the other hand i would rate him second after Tendulkar becoz he has faced the same quality of bowling as Tendulkar has done, Tendulkar has played Ambrose, Walsh, Holding (some great exponents of bowling) so Tendulkar faced better bowlers than Lara as well..Ponting on the other hand, was dropped from the Australian team due to poor run of form in England and one other coutnry and his off-field antics.. in the 1995′-98 i think, and he played in the team which had the best bowling attack? The best openers (to give him cushion) as one of the guys pointed out..
So in the end i would say, i dont look at stats, cause any one stat cannot give you a clear picture.. Yes i agree, in this decade, Ponting has been the best Test player in the world ahead of Tendulkar – but as i said you cannot compare players from different decades, Ponting scored most runs when there were no good bowlers in other teams, Tendulkar was in his prime when there were greats of the game playing against him.. Tendulkar scored most of his runs against “The Best Team in the World”, just like Sunil Gavaskar did, so Ponting is absolutely out of the question when it comes to Top 2 players, because it would be Tendulkar and Lara only.. Also one important factor which Tony Creig once pointed out, India played very few matches when Sachin was in his prime (in the 1990’s) whereas Australia always plays most test matches, and played te highest no. of matches in post 2000 (when Ponting was in his prime)..
The best would be let Tendulkar, Ponting finish their careers and then see how they end with..
On top of that if you combine both ODI’s and Test Matches, then Tendulkar would be far ahead than Ponting and Lara.. Even so called Mr. Cricket (hussey) is fading in test matches – from averages of 90 he is now 52 (less than the Big 3)
Ponting is already gone past his prime.. So now the real thing counts..
RG said | December 4th 2009 @ 9:54am | Report comment
I know this article is about Sachin being overrated. However, when people talk about Sangakkara, Jayawardene, Kallis or Ponting – how come no one talks about Sehwag? If Dravid grinds the opponents to dust, this guy bulldozes them. Sehwag has been an opener for anybody that says Ponting that bats at no. 3. This guy has scored big many times even when everyone else including Tendulkar has failed to reach 50.
Ponting and Richards had one big advantage that Tendulkar and Lara did not have. They played for the best teams. The opposition was not just planning for them; they had to plan for almost all the batsmen in the team. Ponting did not bat under as much pressure as did Tendulkar.
If you cannot play spin, half your game is not good. If you are comparing Tendular’s 4th innings average with that of Pointing’s – two factors – it is harder to play 4th innings in India and it is not fair to compare someone fighting to save or win the match vs someone who scores a cool 40 n.o. when you have to score 150 to win.
Hugh said | December 4th 2009 @ 6:06pm | Report comment
As so many people have mentioned -how in the world do you call some “overrated” who has played at the highest level of international cricket for over 20 years, done well in all conditions, against all bowlers ,all over the world , in all formats, scored 30000 and more runs, 88 hundreds- while still at the end of it averaging as good or better than the others?!
I mean…
how? with what stretch of imagination- can someone even come to this conclusion?
BN said | December 8th 2009 @ 3:41pm | Report comment
Simple, he scores heaps of run but dosen’t win matches, and, last time I checked cricket was a team sport. And any body who knows sport knows what sepparates the Great from just the Good is the ability to constanly win the big games while under pressure, not just score runs when there’s little to lose.
Hugh said | December 9th 2009 @ 12:21am | Report comment
I’m afraid you cannot see the glaring contradiction intrinsic to your own statement. Cricket is indeed a team sport, which is why it is next to impossible to distill with very great accuracy an individuals ability to “constantly win the big games while under pressure” out of the other 21 individuals involved in the final result.
As an eg. % of matches won for arguably the two greatest batsmen of the generation:
1)Sachin Tendulkar : Tests 33% , ODIs 50%
2)Brian Lara : Tests 24% , ODIs 46%
Just to add some spice suppose we take also say Darren Lehmann ( Ive selected him as basically an average to good batsman as compared to Tendulkar and Lara- but one who played in a dominant and superior team)
So, then we get
3)Darren Lehmann: Tests 82 % , ODIs 72%
Actually, your argument exposes either a classical and typical flaw about those who lack a fundamental understanding of team sport or then again you are just one of those nit pickers.
Al said | December 9th 2009 @ 1:45am | Report comment
Well put. To add some more wallop to your stats : In Tests won Tendulkar avg. 65 , Lara 61, Lehmann 54.
And yet Lehmann is involved in 82 % of matches won (almost THRICE that of Tendulkar and Lara but avgs. 20% LESS)in which he played to 33% and 24% respectively for Tendulkar and Lara!
So, much for “TEAM” games…LOL!