By Adrian Musolino
November 29th 2009 @ 2:49am
Related coverage
A-League’s powerhouse club pulling away from the rest
Melbourne Victory fans celebrate with the team. AAP Image/Andrew Brownbill
“This is what the A-League can be like,” implored Fox Sports’ Simon Hill during last night’s coverage of Melbourne Victory’s victory over Gold Coast United; stressing the quality on offer in some parts of the A-League.
It was a tremendous spectacle at Etihad Stadium with a rampant Melbourne Victory dismantling the under-strengthened Gold Coast United 4-0; a spectacle made even more impressive by the atmosphere created thanks to the retractable seating.
How apt the game lived up to the hype created by the pre-match build-up surrounding the new seating arrangements considering a group of visiting international journalists were in attendance as guests of the FFA; examining what Australia has to offer as part of its World Cup bid.
The contrast between the woeful Central Coast – Perth clash played Friday night and the high tempo end-to-end football witnessed at Etihad was stark, both in the quality of football on offer and particularly the atmosphere from the stands, saying much about the huge variance in the spectacle of the A-League at present.
But you can usually rely on the Victory to provide a spectacle, whether they are thrashing teams at Etihad or receiving a thrashing.
Davidde Corran argued here on The Roar that the A-League’s lack of a great club and the tightness of the competition has created a stale league.
He makes some strong points, however, I would counter by suggesting the Melbourne Victory is the powerhouse club of the A-League.
Yes, their form this season has been inconsistent, in keeping with the trend across the league, thanks to some defensive frailties. But Melbourne are still capable of breathtaking performances the like of which other teams in the A-League can only dream of replicating, particularly when the likes of Archie Thompson, Carlos Hernandez and the ever-improving Nicky Ward are in form.
We know all to well the attributes of the Victory’s makeup that differentiates them from the rest – the stability in the running of the club, the on-field success, the star in Thompson, the leader in Muscat and the quality in Hernandez. But what truly differentiates the Victory is the atmosphere produced by its fans, as evidenced Saturday night.
Simon Hill’s suggestion of bottling that atmosphere and distributing it around the league was spot on. The league as a whole would be so much healthier. It is no coincidence that matches at Etihad tend to provide a better spectacle, when the pitch is decent.
Melbourne’s home crowd average is clearly the best in the competition – almost double that of the next best club last season – and their passion and expectations of success – see the criticism of coach Ernie Merrick by some of the fans despite the club’s successes – shows a club with a football culture akin to a European team.
They may not be a powerhouse club in the European mould of consistently increasing crowd figures wherever they go, but that is not a realistic expectation for an A-League club with the league’s inconsistencies in crowds, not to mention a club lacking an international star such as Robbie Fowler or Dwight Yorke.
Whatever your definition of a powerhouse club, it is certain that the Melbourne Victory are a football club in the truest sense of the term.
They are pulling away from the competition off the field, and potentially on the field should they maintain the form they showed against the Gold Coast.
Next season the Melbourne Heart (or whatever they’ll be called) and the new rectangular stadium being built in the Olympic Park precinct are thrown into the Victorian football equation, giving the Victory a local derby and a new home.
While neither the Victory nor Heart have finalized their stadium arrangements for next season, it has been suggested the Victory will play a handful of its blockbuster fixtures at Etihad with the rest played at the new stadium.
The retractable seating has added an extra dimension to matches at Etihad, particularly in the Gold Coast clash and to a lesser extent the Socceroos’ Asian Cup qualifier against Oman.
The choice of stadiums – one that will produce the intimate atmosphere of a rectangular stadium and the other being the colossus of Etihad with its retractable feature – means both Melbourne clubs can recreate the atmosphere the Victory produced against the Gold Coast, to the benefit of the A-League as a whole.
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Pippinu said | November 29th 2009 @ 7:02am | Report comment
Very entertaining game (especially if you’re a Victory supporter), the sheer speed with which the Victory moved the ball was an all-time high for the A-League – and it included stacks of intricate inter-plays – it was another level again to what we are used to seeing locally.
Ernie cops a fair bit from friend and foe alike – but what many don’t appreciate is his high risk-high reward game plan – he encourages his charges to win games, to score goals – and yes – we occasionally get caught out big time.
Another part of the high risk aspect is his unorthodox game plan and game tactics – he employs very fluid formations that are constantly changing from back three to back four and vice versa, and with one or other wing back moving in centrally then moving back again – we get the extra bodies in midfield to win back possession, but we are sometimes exposed to quick counter attacks on the far wing (what we’d call in aussie rules the “fat side”).
The mobility of Arch means that its not unusal to catch him behind Carlos one second, and then latching onto a through ball from deep a second later – very very tough for defenders to keep track of such movement – and Kruse was similar last night, and that’s how the first goal (and his first Victory goal) was engineered last night, when he unexpectedly drifted into the hole rather than Carlos or Arch – it’s this kind of movement that GCU struggled to cope with.
But when it comes together – to be honest, even SFC’s best games do not touch us (and it’s quite stark the difference in rave reviews Lavicka gets compared to Ernie – but that’s just the usual anti-British bias the people express).
tifosi said | November 29th 2009 @ 7:43am | Report comment
This is what the A-League can be like,” implored Fox Sports’ Simon Hill during last night’s coverage of Melbourne Victory’s victory over Gold Coast United; stressing the quality on offer in some parts of the A-League.
Yeah if every team came from melbourne it could be like that.
Asian Football? said | November 30th 2009 @ 4:23pm | Report comment
I guess you’re referring to the AFL then. Most of the Football teams in the AFL are from Melbourne (& surrounds).
Wonder if there’s a link here?
Vicentin said | November 29th 2009 @ 8:05am | Report comment
It was a great game and great performance from the VIctory and yes Pippu possibly the best football I’ve seen to date in the A-League – except for our first half against you guys a few months ago. Lovely combinations between Kruse, Hernandez, Ward and Thompson throughout the game. Archie was on fire yesterday- the only problem was that next week he’ll probably look completely shite again …you know it’s true. Definitely been a step up in the quality of play overall this year despite the occasional shocking matches like the CCM v Perth game mentioned, but even these teams have really turned it on at times this season including CCMs great game against Melbourne… Just want to make sure you don’t forget some of these results!
Pippinu said | November 29th 2009 @ 11:28am | Report comment
What results!! (already erased)
That CCM v Perth game was a shocker.
And as a TV product – the deafening silence of the crowd and the quality of the game feed on each other (which was the exact opposite last night).
It’s a chicken and egg thing. Quality then crowds? Crowds then quality? One thing is for sure – as a TV product – both need to be there to look attractive – if Culina is on fire in front of 2,000 fans – it ain’t gonna look good on TV regardless of how good the play is.
Realfootball said | November 29th 2009 @ 8:40am | Report comment
What a Jekyll and Hyde team Melbourne are. One minute you get the game against Central Coast, then you get a performance like last night. I would struggle to think of a more exhilarating, polished brand of football played in the A League’s short history. Just a pleasure to watch.
Next week I’m at Skilled Park to watch GCU versus the Mariners. Sigh.
clayton said | November 29th 2009 @ 10:17am | Report comment
Loved what I saw last night. Loved what I heard too. Melbourne is showing what is possible for the A-league. Loved seeing the retractable seating in the stands.
Did the Melbourne club do something right or was it just that culturally Melbourne is the place where this support would happen? (Thats not rhetorical, thats actually a question).
Its a bit unfair saying that the other clubs can`t reach the same highs. Gold Coast have had their highs as well as their lows. Welly has put on some shows. Not everyone is gonna appreciate them, but CCM have put on some of the best performances of this season. I love the “Melbourne way” of playing, but it isn`t the only way to play.
Pippinu said | November 29th 2009 @ 10:25am | Report comment
Clayton
I’ve written this a few times before, and it’s not a popular view, but given that half othe Victory’s membership are AFL members, I have always thought that the Victory is helped by being in a strong AFL city, not hindered, and that the Victory management (led by someone with AFL connections) did the right thing by marketing itself to all Melburnians, including AFL supporters.
Many AFL people enjoy having something to watch in the off-season, and you don’t need a large percentage to actually get some big numbers to games.
Dogs Of War said | November 29th 2009 @ 10:29am | Report comment
It’s a cultural thing I believe. Not to mention that the A-League in Melbourne has tried to woo supporters of AFL across, while I don’t think that is necessarily the case in other locations, especially the Northern States. As well the Northern States don’t have membership cultures, which I know a few NRL clubs are now trying to change, and A-League clubs up here should probably try to do deals with their local NRL club where a discount is offered for being a member of both clubs. Sydney FC could end up big winners as they are able to do deals with most NRL clubs in Sydney, as well as AFL clubs in Sydney.
Large crowds can make even the most dour match, a bit more exciting just due to the atmosphere.
oikee said | November 29th 2009 @ 6:12pm | Report comment
Suncorp memberships have now got offered 38 games, Broncos, Roar, And qld reds, so for a set amount you see all 3 codes and also finals, plus extras, like socceroo games origin, wallaby matches. Good value for any fan. Could be the future. Good idea for league and soccer(football) to link up memberships. If this grows, every game should be close to full.
mahony said | November 30th 2009 @ 9:45am | Report comment
No – never. Socceroos are the national mens football team and should stand alone IMO.
NUFCMVFC said | November 29th 2009 @ 3:00pm | Report comment
I would say it is partly a cultural thing, Melbourne is quite multicultural, but without the kind of boundaries Sydney has between West and East of the Sydney. There is a little bit, but it isn’t so physical in terms of tollways plus the CBD is in the centre and economically accessible via Train system and also car of course. This helps in ensuring a good mix at games which have a good football cultural knowledge, obviously what has allowed the atmosphere to evolve from one end is that you have the South End where the British oriented fans went and the North where the South American/continental fans. This has issues as there is a bit of infighting at times. But from having two active ends, at the old OP they were then able to bring in the side stands in football equivalent of a “mexican wave” that you perhaps can’t get at other clubs with only 1 home end.
Another very important issue though is that MVFC started out at Olympic Park, which is a Stadium with old fashioned terracing. importantly no allocated seating which gave rise to a natural and organic fan culture and allowed to thrive, despite there being lots of problems regarding Drums and Flags and so forth. If Melbourne had played at Docklands from the outset, the culture and atmosphere would not be what it is today. The 4 stand chanting started out at OP too in season 2, so it is OP that has been conducive to this, and it is the new OP that will be more conducive to atmosphere than even a rectangular Etihad.
Interestingly, the Cove struggled after season 1 when allocated seating was introduced fro season 2 onwards, they are in a rectangular stadium but basically allocated seating is bad for active support because it doesen’t allow for dynamism but also people with allocated seats buy into active areas and whinge about flags etc, happens all the time at National Team games but these people tend to dilute the atmosphere and they can’t be moved out, whereas with GA you cant tell them to go somewhere else and chanters shuffle into an area and non chanters to the side, these people tend to just stand there “because they have a ticket there”. Sydney possibly could have kind of had two ends, but the SCC got moved.
Same can be said of the Roar, they used to have healthy crowds but below par active support in the so called “best football stadium” in the country, because of stadium management/security, clubs who don’t really care because they consider active fans a threat to family fans (which obviously isn’t true because the wing fans were getting into it last night now weren;t they) but also the FFA’s policy with HEM. A good example is NQ Fury, originally on the basis of their “secuirity advisors” they were going to set a HEM alloocated seating system in the side stand in expensive seats. Thankfully the Fury CEO seemed to have a bit of a brain and was willing to listen and the current system where the active fans can be seperate from and control who comes in a bit (no non actives) has seen a fairly decent active support spring up at the Fury with F-Troop despite being the smaller of the 3 QLD clubs.
CCM is a ‘family’ club quite deliberately, Marinators really seem to have shrunk this year? Have moved location, a shame because I can imagine it would be more enjoyable with a bit of atmosphere, is certainly much better when in Finals games it was full, especially against BJFC when the Jets fans would bring some atmosphere
AUFC fans have what to many supporters seems like the best stadium because of proximity of ends to the goal, but there has been some instability I guess at times
Perth do nicely IMO, despite being cultured Perth simply isn’t as big as Melbourne
GC Utd, crowds are too small, but there stadium is built for active support and has great acoustics.
Jets, were quite decent, have shrunk with crowds overall…
Either way, it is good to have, firstly because it ensures that club and FFA officials see the real benefits of encouraging the facilitation of rather than obstructing active support first hand, but also it kind of shows what is possible in the local context and so hopefully inspires other clubs active fans to “lift”
As far as on the field goes, some great football. Gold Coast were in the mix but I think injuries forced them to subs and change of shape etc. SFC are looking quite stable, and generally I think we can expect Melbourne, Gold Coast and Sydney to be up near the top of thereabouts
As a Melbourne fan, I personally prefer the term “Powerhouse” club which is generally what you would have to say it is at this point in time, as we don’t really care for “Glamour” tag as it is not Melburnian culture, that can quite happily go to Gold Coast or SFC (even if they are wanting to move away from “bling” perhaps?)
mahony said | November 29th 2009 @ 11:27am | Report comment
At the end of the day, Ernie signed this squad, Ernie coached them and Ernie (along with Kevin) set the ‘tone’ for the sort of football that keeps people comming back. Well done Ernie, I know the team has patches of bad play and even bad games, but the fans understand the culture of the team, its football intentions and stay supportive KNOWING that great performances are never far off. That is how a football club succeeds!
Pippinu said | November 29th 2009 @ 11:30am | Report comment
mahony
well put – but I tell you what – we have plenty of colleagues waiting to sink the boot into Ernie – I’m not talking about opposition supporters – I’m talking about our own supporters!! (and yes, even I have been tested at times – it’s very, very hard to cop a 0-4 loss at home)
Midfielder said | November 29th 2009 @ 11:36am | Report comment
When you come to Bluetounge for the annual ..flogging of the Tards….. I will smile all the more…
I have said all along we have a midfield to die for… we still need to solve our scoring problems… but I trust we will solve that …
Pip you coming up to Gods Garden to see the Tards flogging …
KB said | November 29th 2009 @ 11:43am | Report comment
I didn’t think the GCU were too far off the pace, we were in the game, look good at times, held them for 30 mins, then the critical injury to Steve Fitzsimmons, then Porter… along with the inexperience of the youngsters was too much to over come … Don’t give MV too much credit, they faced a decimated GCU squad… SFC will fair much better against them and even CCM will do the business against them… a tough, uncompromising, very fit side, will run over them next week at Blue Tongue; if they show the same form as they did against the Fury the previous week…
~~~~~~
KB
Pippinu said | November 29th 2009 @ 12:00pm | Report comment
Yeh – Rees and Panta are really the sorts of players that are going to make a difference.
KB said | November 29th 2009 @ 1:43pm | Report comment
You left out Den Brink, Traore and Minniecon; did they play last night ?
Midfielder said | November 29th 2009 @ 12:46pm | Report comment
KB
Watch weeMac & Travis next week and you will see what I am talking about… better take the yellow pills to the match.
KB said | November 29th 2009 @ 1:48pm | Report comment
save the yellow pills for pippi boy and the bandages blood bags on the side line for the MV… I’m sure after your midfield are finished with them they are going to need all of the medical support they can get … here’s hoping
zizou said | November 29th 2009 @ 11:59am | Report comment
It will be interesting to see if the stadium management choose again to bring in the retractable seating, especially since the next home game is against Sydney. It would truly make for a great atmosphere and last night was a pointer to what we can expect at the new rectangular stadium.
The North/East/South/West End chants brought back memories of our last ever A-League game at Olympic Park where we clinched the Premiership. Can we have that every home game please?
Pippinu said | November 29th 2009 @ 1:11pm | Report comment
Hey zizou
first time I’ve ever noticed you here!!
Did you have a blast last night??
I think I can work out what your next blog will be about!
zizou said | November 29th 2009 @ 3:45pm | Report comment
Pippinu,
Have been the reading the articles over here for a while now, especially Tony’s. Certainly did have a blast last night, have spent most of this season standing in South End and enjoyed being really close to the action.
danny said | November 29th 2009 @ 1:24pm | Report comment
zizou (fft zizou, i’m guessing?),
the club have said that for scheduling and cost purposes, this was the only time for the season that the seats would be in. read: they only did it because the ffa covered the cost to impress the travelling journos. but geez, what a game for the journos to see! not saying it’s any better than a generic game in england or japan, for instance. but relative to other a-league games they could have seen, they got lucky.
i was loving on the north-east-south-west chanting too, unfortunately wasn’t there for the game against the knights so have been hanging out for it to happen again. very happy.
here’s hoping that docklands management use the retractable seating when we play our ‘blockbusters’ in coming years. i can see myself struggling returning to the oval pitch once i’m comfy on swan st.
zizou said | November 29th 2009 @ 3:47pm | Report comment
danny,
that would be correct – I am zizou from fft.
danny said | November 29th 2009 @ 4:28pm | Report comment
yay, i was right!
minor inconsequential achievements ftw.
Towser said | November 29th 2009 @ 12:33pm | Report comment
Pippinu
For me its a no brainer its quality then crowds. The other way round crowds then quality is doomed for failure,unless you deliver the quality . I know this from the Roar. We had the crowds in season 3. An example of “swingers” attending that season (as one Brisbane sports journalist calls them)was a vast increase in Suncorp members attending. I know because they sat immediately behind me.
These swingers can come from several categories out of curiosity initially. Could be Euro-watchers, general sports fans, other sports fans,young singles with disposable income looking for some form of entertainment to spend spare cash on. These are the ones I recognise from conversations.Could be others.
Expectation/delivery key words in retaining punters in the entertainment industry. That delivery for A-League clubs comes from quality of football on the pitch or winning- both facets should be at home to get them back.In general Roar delivered neither at Suncorp. So Season 4 we see the decline running into season 5. Add to that ridiculous price increases,you see the result.
Personally I dont see it as a problem just a glitch in starting a league from scratch.
Victory & the Roar were a clean slate in season 1 as were the rest. MV have delivered to their fans judging by the football on display last night a reflection in reality of overall deliverance over the 5 seasons. The Roar have yet to deliver to the Brisbane public.
Jeb said | November 29th 2009 @ 3:22pm | Report comment
Towser,
You got it spot on with the Roar – they haven’t ever won much or played good football at home. Where I disagree with you is that you don’t think the lack of crowds are a problem. I like your optimism but I think its more than a glitch as a large part of the football community gave the roar more than a fair chance over a number of years and were rarely rewarded. It’ll take something extraordinary for them to come back.
Towser said | November 29th 2009 @ 3:53pm | Report comment
Jeb
Know where you are coming from being part of the Brisbane football community. I guess neither of us has a crystal ball so it will be an interesting journey to see if they can bring the lost “football community” faithful back to the fold. For myself I’m off to Suncorp to see The Roar vs Wellington Phoenix.
Joe FC said | November 29th 2009 @ 9:05pm | Report comment
Thought the Roar looked pretty good tonight Towser, perhaps it’s the start of better times.
Pippinu said | November 29th 2009 @ 10:38pm | Report comment
Big turn up with the Jets defeating Sydney, handing MV a 5 point break at the top – you’d have to say, an unexpected break.
Another surprise is that we’ve actually managed to improve our goal difference over Sydney in one just one week (six goal turnaround).
The Mariners’ 13+ goal difference looks massive at this point.
Come year end, that’s as good as a point in a tight battle.
Art Sapphire said | November 30th 2009 @ 8:53am | Report comment
Thanks to the FFA for paying for the reconfiguration for last Saturdays’s game. Victory supporters have now realised what they have missed out on the the last 3 years and feel well and truly jibbed. We will not see the rectangular configuration again this season and the great atmosphere that it generates. Victory’s next home game is against Sydney FC.
Unless the clubs pulls out $80k, which it has not done before, the stadium will revert back to its normal Aussie Rules configuration. The fans have been given a taste of something and don’t want it taken away.
Relief is in sight next season with the opening of the Rectangular stadium. But, it could end up being a PR disaster for the Victory. Their decision to play their “blockbuster’ games at Etihad rather than the new ground will look most unwise. It will be the best free kick imaginable for the new Melbourne team as they can advertise that they will be the only team in Melbourne that will play all their home games at the new football friendly ground.
KB said | November 30th 2009 @ 9:20am | Report comment
Art,
the cost should be equally split i.e. $40k to form the rectangle and leave it in that configuration until the AFL want to play on it… The AFL then should pay $40K to revert to oval… Then if Victory want to play on the rectangle format again they should pay $40k to revert back to rectangle… Then the AFL should pay $40K to return to oval… Simple …
I’m now just going to sit back and wait for the pathetic cries to come from the AFL … “No way Jose” (I’m expecting an avalanche of comments
unfortunately I shall be out for the most of the day and leave you in charge to deal with them… Gooood luck lad ) …
~~~~~~
KB
AndyRoo said | November 30th 2009 @ 9:51am | Report comment
I appreciate what MV have done for the league.
They have brought in big crowds and have probably given a lot of people faith in the leagues potential. If every team was an MV we would have one hell of a comp.
I also am thankful for Ernie’s recruiting. SFC were the team I was most inclined to support (grew up in Western Sydney) but they have constantly signed players from other clubs (Rovers can’t arrive fast enough). MV have by and large brought in players from outside the league rather than the tried and trued practice of Big and Successful clubs (how much better would the SPL be if the Glasgow clubs didn’t target all the best SPL players) of poaching players that have done well at poorer clubs.
The 3 Brazilians, the two Thais, bringing Mate back. The Ticos and playing a fee for Hernanadez. Their based in Melbourne they have won two championships and yet I still don’t hate them….. amazing job by Ernie and co.
M1tch said | November 30th 2009 @ 9:57am | Report comment
are they going to have the seats close for the rest of the season?
Pippinu said | November 30th 2009 @ 10:00am | Report comment
NOt sure – doubt it – while it could stay for all of Dec/Jan, the ground would be needed in its normal configuration by mid-Feb, and the turf would be destroyed and would need to be replaced – which is possible these days – but it’s costly and some turnaround time is required.
AndyRoo said | November 30th 2009 @ 10:04am | Report comment
Someone above said it was only a one off paid for by the FFA to impress the traveling journos about our WC Bid.
Pippinu said | November 30th 2009 @ 10:07am | Report comment
It was definitely done for the sake of the foreign journos – but it remains a legitimate question – for how long could it just be left in place until it needs to be pulled back up again?
AndyRoo said | November 30th 2009 @ 10:16am | Report comment
I think the grounds man would say only for 12 hours
I remember around the 2006 World Cup their was a travels style show which each episode spent a bit of time on each of the Stadiums and the surrounding area (Museums, food and local attractions. little tid bit like the Addidas story).
Apart from putting Germany on my “places to go list” one of the grounds featured has the entire pitch on tracks. When it isn’t game day they roll it under the stadium so it can catch a full day of sunshine.
Redb said | November 30th 2009 @ 10:11am | Report comment
The crowd was a bit over 20,000 for the GC game.
The new stadium should be able to host almost all of Melb Victory’s games with a 31,000 capacity. Even recent games against Sydney struggle to get much more than 30,000.
Play the Grand Final only at Etihad and retract the seats then.
Art Sapphire said | November 30th 2009 @ 10:19am | Report comment
Victory have signed a deal with Etihad to play their so called “blockbuster games” there.
They signed this deal when they were getting 35k+ crowds back in season 2 and 3.
They have miscalculated badly here and all they have ended up doing is alienating their own loyal membership.
Victory members want all their home games played at the new ground.
Redb said | November 30th 2009 @ 11:17am | Report comment
It’s going to cost them serious money. As we all know Etihad management are very flexible, not!
Art Sapphire said | November 30th 2009 @ 11:19am | Report comment
Yes redb – Victory signed a deal with the devil (oops, I mean Mr Collins)
Redb said | November 30th 2009 @ 11:27am | Report comment
Never ever trust a Carlton man.
Pippinu said | November 30th 2009 @ 11:33am | Report comment
If it’s for only two games per annum plus finals – I guess that’s quasi acceptable.
Perhaps one day the Dome will become the permanent home of the A-League grand final (it will naturally be tied to the A-League grand final just as the MCG is naturally tied to the AFL grand final – so often will the Dome host it, that people will naturally view it as the home of the A-League).
Art Sapphire said | November 30th 2009 @ 11:46am | Report comment
The home games against Sydney, Adelaide and Heart will be played at Etihad.
That is 4 – 5 games a season a season not including the finals. It is not acceptable, even if they put the seats in for those games. Every member I speak to just wants to get out of that ground for good.
AndyRoo said | November 30th 2009 @ 11:50am | Report comment
Art
At least their will finally be a point of difference from the Heart.
Art Sapphire said | November 30th 2009 @ 12:31pm | Report comment
The point of difference Andy is that the Victory fans will be envious of their rivals.
I have spoken to some people who go to the odd Victory game.
They are thinking of supporting the new team purely based on the fact the the new team will play all its home games at the new Rectangular stadium.
This must be music to the new team’s ears.
mahony said | December 1st 2009 @ 2:00pm | Report comment
I don’t!
Realfootball said | November 30th 2009 @ 12:18pm | Report comment
If it wasn’t for MVFC, the A League could well be a dead duck by now. MVFC not only keep the A League crowd averages up, they are a beacon of hope for all the other clubs that yes, with good management, it could work for you too. If you take MVFC out of the A League equation it looks, frankly, awful. So thank you Victory, the club and the supporters, you’re keeping optimism alive for the code, quite literally. It helps when you sit in an almost empty Skilled Park to know that one day it could be different. Before that I used to sit in an emptier by the season Suncorp, where a club that proved in no uncertain manner that it could pull an average of 15- 20k people butchered its own future. And, like Jeb, I fear that bringing back that support is going to be very, very hard. The Roar was given enormous rope by Brisbane supporters, and it used it all up.
Redb said | November 30th 2009 @ 12:42pm | Report comment
Interesting that your name is being used these days to promote Victory matches. Another big mistake – 20K aint that special for a heavily promoted match. real football
It use to be football but not as you know it. Now its real football.
Michael C said | November 30th 2009 @ 1:02pm | Report comment
FIrstly – RealFootball, agreed.
You said “If you take MVFC out of the A League equation it looks, frankly, awful.”
I’ve included some stats for this season only to illustrate your point,
MVFC the only side to attract more than 20K all season – on 3 occassions inc one 30K+.
MVFC, 9 of top 11 attendances
All 9 of MVFC home games have been 15K+, only others: Bris, Syd and Ade 1 each.
The HAL avg crowd this year is a sick 9781, but, remove MVFC home matches and that brings it down to 8475.
80 matches played, and 51 sub 10K, (64%), remove MVFC home games, and 71 matches played, 51 sub 10K, gives 72%. Effectively 2/3s blows out to 3/4s of games are sub 10K crowds without MVFC in there to ‘inflate’ the figures.
How important is MVFC to the impression of a marginally healthy league??
(so, at such times, I put to anti Melb/AFL people……’Show us an insular/myopic single code city!!!’)
Redb:
there was a heap of local promotion about coming to see ‘REAL Football’…..(a miscalculation perhaps?), and it was pumped up that it would look and sound like ‘REAL football’ because of the seating being in…….if ever they should’ve been getting 30K for such a game this was it – - a chance to take advantage of the FFA paying for the seats to be in and a chance to make a ’statement’ to FIFA in front of the visiting journo’s…….
…..and that was the best ….. 20,000.
I’m sure all were super impressed by the 36,000 empty seats in a stadium clearly not built for soccer………..yup…..real impressive. Hey guys…..look what we don’t have!!!
Art Sapphire said | November 30th 2009 @ 12:59pm | Report comment
Yes redb – I thought the campaign was somewhat misdirected, considering the ground is going back to its original shape. They should have held back on the marketing until next season.
“Watch real football in a real football stadium”
Anyway 20k ain’t to bad if you consider there were only 12 away fans making up the numbers and casual MV fans have stopped going because the venue is so lousy.
You should remember that Melbourne Demons and Nth Melbourne would be rapt if they get 20k when they play some interstate teams like Port and Freo.
Redb said | November 30th 2009 @ 2:22pm | Report comment
I dont think the FFA needs to get down this real football line.
“Football but not as you know it”, educated, but did not isolate.
As I said 20,000 is pretty ordinary when MV are the only team in town. You compare the lowest drawing AFL clubs in Melbourne, when you know several Melbourne AFL clubs (Essendon, Collingwood, Carlton, Hawthorn, Richmond) could pull 30,000 on their own. Or put another way 200,000 AFL fans collectively go to the football each week during the season.
Plus 1 for bringing the seats in.
Minus 2 for the real football promo.
Redb
M1tch said | November 30th 2009 @ 2:29pm | Report comment
its unfair to compare crowds with Melb AFL teams..otherwise MV should be getting the 200k a week :O
Redb said | November 30th 2009 @ 2:35pm | Report comment
Can’t pick off the weakest teams either and then compare it to another sport with one team for the whole town. Especially when they are top of the table.
M1tch said | November 30th 2009 @ 2:39pm | Report comment
????????????????
Art Sapphire said | November 30th 2009 @ 2:56pm | Report comment
redb – I am comapring clubs. MV is a football club. Yes, it is the only A-League team in Melbourne at the moment but it does not represent all of Melbourne’s football supporters.
It seem like you and a few other people on this thread can’t get your head around this concept.
Yes ofcourse, the AFL will get bigger crowds, its part of the fabric of the city. That is not my argument.
Now, lets compare how my team a big team like Essendon with MVFC
Essendon drew a 27,461 home crowd against Freo this season- a team that does not have many away supporters. So you can make an argument that MVFC home figures are quite healthy and sustainable considering we don’t have a local rival. The problem is clubs like North and the Demons considering their much larger budgets are struggling to stay alive based on the fact that they do not get decent crowds.
Redb said | November 30th 2009 @ 2:57pm | Report comment
Art,
Likewise, did Essendon draw all of its fans to the Freo game?
Redb
Art Sapphire said | November 30th 2009 @ 3:14pm | Report comment
redb – what you can’t argue is that considering the budget to run an AFL club, the Demons and Roos based on their attendances will struggle and will have to rely on AFL handouts to stay alive. This is why they are always crying out to play the big clubs.
MVFC on the other hand are a powerhouse in their competition and also commercially viable. Which is a great thing for thing for the A-league and an example to other clubs.
Pippinu said | November 30th 2009 @ 3:24pm | Report comment
Art
but even stragglers like the Dees and Roos have four or five times the turnover of the Victory.
Michael C said | November 30th 2009 @ 3:32pm | Report comment
Art -
we did okay attendance wise back in the North power era of the ’90s, alas, we hadn’t converted enough members back then. The business model is better now.
So, it’s unfair to comment about Melb and North who are at the bottom of the table presently.
At very least, each club should be about 1.1 million better off next season due stadium deals.
anyway – if we were to get a 100% state funded boutique 30K stadium with cushy deals -we might be okay to forecasting forward.
Art Sapphire said | November 30th 2009 @ 3:53pm | Report comment
Michael – how much state or federal funding did the Kangas get for the new state of the art multi million dollar training training facility?
I doubt it came out of their own pocket. Otherwise, your boys would still be having cold showers
Redb said | December 1st 2009 @ 8:06am | Report comment
Art,
You cant keep changing the premise of your argument.
I stated 20K was not a good crowd given the extra publicity around the MV and GC game. You come back with comments about AFL teams.
The fact is MV has levelled off quite quickly, maybe the FFA is right to bring in another team to build derbies but the after season 2 many predicted 40-50K crowds for the blockbusters against Adel and Syd – it has not eventuated.
Redb
Michael C said | November 30th 2009 @ 2:37pm | Report comment
It’s fair though to suggest, that for a ‘collective’ impact on the psyche of a sports mad city,….that roughly 20,000 people once a fortnight during the HAL season is a far, far less significant figure than 200,000 each week (or 400,000 per fortnight) collectively in that city.
It illustrates that somewhere along the line – the FFA needs to be careful to not burn too many bridges with this ‘real football’ corn-twaddle.
M1tch said | November 30th 2009 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
20k for soccer is good..I think people look to AFL and EPL and expect it to be the same
I agree though about ‘real football’ talk etc
Redb said | December 1st 2009 @ 8:09am | Report comment
20K is not that good for Melbourne.
Realfootball said | November 30th 2009 @ 1:12pm | Report comment
I would kill to be at the Victory’s first game in the new stadium. In fact, I’m already thinking of flying down just to be there. Their crowd averages will, I predict, be close to 30k a game once they are in their new home. Course Heart could dent that a bit.
Art Sapphire said | November 30th 2009 @ 1:30pm | Report comment
If both teams play there cards right – the two biggest drawing teams will be in Melbourne next season.
1) The new venue will be a drawcard.
2) There are many football supporters in Melbourne who do not support Victory for a multitude of reasons.
The new team will be their chance to start supporting an A-League team.
Pippinu said | November 30th 2009 @ 1:32pm | Report comment
If Hearts can win over the old Melbourne Croatia supporters – that’s a ready fan base right there.
Towser said | November 30th 2009 @ 1:44pm | Report comment
Pippinu
Why only Melbourne Croatia supporters? Is there some connection between the Croatian community in Melbourne & Hearts?
Pippinu said | November 30th 2009 @ 1:57pm | Report comment
Towser
not directly – they are far too smart for that – but the question has often been asked: how will Hearts differentiate itself from MV? Read Art’s post below for an inkling.
There is method to the madness – helped along by half the list being of Croatian background – if Skoko is joined by Dukes – on top of the the other signings already on board – well – you don’t necessarily have to put up in headlines!!
In Federal politics – the journos call it the dog whistle.
Art Sapphire said | November 30th 2009 @ 1:47pm | Report comment
It won’t only be the old Knights fans. I can see quite a few ex-NSL supporters jumping on board. They did not jump on to Victory because they thought the A-League and Victory were plastic. Some have not followed Victory because thay don’t like Merrick. Well now they have realised the A-League is here to stay and they can band together and support a team to take on Victory. This will end up becoming the most intense derby in Melbourne and Australia.
Towser said | November 30th 2009 @ 2:11pm | Report comment
Art Sapphire
Given that MV is far more prominent in Melbourne than SFC is in Sydney I can see your point. The Melbourne derby is coming from a much stronger position in terms of Hearts rival than the Rovers equivalent.
AndyRoo said | November 30th 2009 @ 2:17pm | Report comment
The Rovers vs SFC Rivalry will have one thing going for it that Melbourne’s does not “context”. I am sure sharing the same piece of dirt that Melbourne A vs Melbourne B will generate some passion. But Rovers vs SFC is East vs West, the league would only be about 7 years old when Rovers come into the comp but the inner city vs fibros rivalry is a good 40 years old!
Towser said | November 30th 2009 @ 2:41pm | Report comment
AndyRoo
Having lived in both Eastern Suburbs & Western Suburbs an equal number of years over a substantial period I understand the “context”. The question I have is have SFC defined their “context” enough to provide as deep a rivalry as the Melbourne one. Will be an interesting observation to see how it pans out.
AndyRoo said | November 30th 2009 @ 2:49pm | Report comment
Well I can’t wait for one but then I am a keen observer of the Hal and think SFC are playing the Eastern Suburbs club (the bad guys) to a tee. Poaching Brosque (Roars best), Brokie (Knightz best), Aloisi (Mariners best), Michael Bridges and Colisimo as well while showing no loyalty to Dwight and Pierre.
The only problem is the smaller support for the HAL when comapred to Melbourne, are their enough Westies watching the A league to know that they should hate SFCand it will be very hard to hate SFC if they don’t have a big support base.
Also going over those memories how much better off Syndey FC would have been if they didn’t pinch pennies for season 2 and kept at least Pierre (I would assume Dwight would be immposible to keep from Sunderland). They had a good thing going PR wise and took a huge step backwards once he left.
Art Sapphire said | November 30th 2009 @ 3:05pm | Report comment
Towser – Andyroo – I think the other problem in Sydney is that ex-NSL supporters are not attending Sydney FC games.
I reckon alot of ex-NSL supporters in Sydney see Sydney FC as Sydney Hakoah Mark II and don’t want to jump on board.
Hopefully, this will not be the case with Rovers.
Whereas in Melbourne, Victory already attracts some fans who went to NSL games and I expect plenty others to jump on board the new team.
Towser said | November 30th 2009 @ 2:56pm | Report comment
AndyRoo
Dont get me started on SFC,so many should haves at that club.
KB said | November 30th 2009 @ 3:30pm | Report comment
Towser,
I don’t think there will be a rivalry in Melbourne, I believe the supporters there will equally support both the teams in Melbourne and have two memberships, a game per week to attend… That’s Melbourne…
I think AndyRoo, is incorrect; if they market the teams in Sydney similar as to Manly NRL vs Parramatta or Wests like the old ’70s Roy Masters per se, the Fribros vs the Silvertails that won’t work for all in my opioion, hmmm, maybe it could, but, I think we are past that idelogy not sure if that will ever work in Football…
I feel Ian Rowdan has to first find a way to entice or embrace the old NSL ethnic supporters of likes of the Marconi and the Croatian lot to join in on the Greater Western concept … That will be a lot difficult to do then anything else and from what I can see he is not even concerned about attracting that demographic, but just entertaining the idea of attraction only Anglo and Celtic supporters from the defunct clubs Parramatta Power, Western Suburbs and Blacktown clubs … I wish him luck, but I think with this strategy of only the old Red, white and Black colour, of those clubs is a big mistake… The colours will be so important and I think he is on the wrong track so far with this selection.. Something totally divorced from anything that has been used in the past should be the way forward…
~~~~~~
KB
AndyRoo said | November 30th 2009 @ 4:47pm | Report comment
Perhaps not KB but reading the 442 forums I think the rivalry is already building. You can try and talk down the bogans chance of success that’s ok, I wouldn’t expect anything less from a SFC fan. We have Rowden and Yankos two smart blokes who are also football folk so the business side of things isn’t being left in the hands of a random patron from Wenty Leagus club (who I am sure would do a fine job….certainly no worse that Clive Mesnik).
I don’t think we are going to see a really intense rivalry in the A league for a while because we are still at the stage where there is a shared bond of struggle that all football fans have had to put up with. I think the critical mass of two HAL teams will start the ball rolling PR wise and along with FTA we will be on the road to ACL domination.
East vs West isn’t everything but it will be that little element that gives the Sydney rivalry a head start, that tiny bit of undercurrent that invokes that little bit extra of local pride
AndyRoo said | November 30th 2009 @ 5:16pm | Report comment
KB, I don’t think that some new colors would change anything. Just being enthusiastic about the club does wonders and coupled with a 6 year gap from when these teams were left out of “new” football and playing a few games at these state league clubs will do wonders. Actions speak louder than words/pictures and time heals all wounds etc etc. If they are in any way a new Parramatta Power they can forget about any Croatian support though.
They should also enter into agreements with Marconi and Sydney United so that those teams receive more than the stipulated 3k from a transfer to an A league club. Perhaps putting in a generous sell on % so that those teams are happy for Rovers to suceed rather than seeing them as the fox sports funded enemy.
As to the colors Red Balck and White I have seen this potential kit and I think it looks quite fetching. This isn’t what ROvers would look like but does show the potential of those colors.
Realfootball said | November 30th 2009 @ 3:39pm | Report comment
SFC are rather like the Roar – mismanaged for so long that no one can feel either faith or optimism in them. Like the Roar, their runs of good form are paper thin, liable to tear at any moment. Their inconsistency is simply mind boggling. I see only 10k turned up to see them play the Jets. There’ll be less next time. I am confident that Rovers will outdraw them in support from game 1.
KB said | November 30th 2009 @ 4:00pm | Report comment
Is this thread being hijacked by the AFL lot as per usual… ???? Three of them onto poor Art… No matter what Art don’t mention Marn Grook or your comments will be deleted …
Art Sapphire said | November 30th 2009 @ 4:16pm | Report comment
Fear not KB – they d not stand a chance. They will need 300 to have any chance breaking me down. Also, as a Melburnian, I have been granted immunity and can mention AFL as much as I like. Having attended AFL games over the last 30 years should give me some privileges
BigAl said | December 1st 2009 @ 2:33pm | Report comment
Nothing wrong with ‘Marn Grook’ ! – in fact personally I’d be quite happy to have that (or what you’re alluding to ) adopted as the official name of Aussie Rules in this country.
It would be a great tribute to our Indiginous peoples – and would probably be more apppreciated and of far more value than any of the ‘SORRY’ statements that seem to be so fashionable these days.
However, I have the common sense to realise that it just wouldn’t catch on !
Sort of like trying to get everyone in Australia to call Soccer . . . Football !
Pippinu said | December 1st 2009 @ 2:38pm | Report comment
Yeh – it is a bit like that!!
KB said | December 1st 2009 @ 3:32pm | Report comment
Big Al,
so now with your permission I can use the term Marn Grooky, Marn Grook, or just Grooky … glad to have you on board, I now feel vindicated, and hope you will never pull the trigger of my use of that term/terms again … By all means call my preferred code Sokkah if your wish, as it will never be known by that throughout the majority of the world ..
The FFA have boldly relaunched their corporate name and image as “Football Federation Australia” … as it being their right to do so … ie reclaiming their rightful name “Football” as it was first coined by the inventors of the round ball game, which every other code had hijacked… So let’s rejoice together and abide by that long awaited grand FFA imitative, long live Grooky and Football side by side on Planet Earth and eventually all over Australia… (after your eventual demise of coarse)
~~~~~~~
KB
Brian Munich said | November 30th 2009 @ 4:51pm | Report comment
MVFC’s commitment to Etihad revealed last week – 5 games per season and all ACL matches – is a disgrace and a huge disappointment particularly after MVFC have been using the new stadium as a hook for membership. It’s clear that the special configuration at Etihad is going to be a rare event. I agree the new stadium is going to be sensational and MVFC has potentially handed Melb Heart the “unique selling proposition” it was looking for if its signs up for ALL of its games there.
Art Sapphire said | November 30th 2009 @ 7:54pm | Report comment
Spot on Brian – As a Victory member for 5 years, all I can say is that Geoff Lord and the board got way ahead of themselves during season 2 and 3. The original design of the new stadium was for 20k. Even when the government was successfully lobbied to increase the capacity to 31k. Lord thought the new stadium would still be too small and signed the deal with Etihad to stage the blockbuster games and ACL games. This is the worst decision the club has ever made and will backfire badly. The club has 18k members. The priority for the club is to keep the members happy and to grow the membership base and the best way to do that was by putting them in a football friendly stadium and not to cater to casual theatregoers who might want to go to the odd big game.
Pippinu said | November 30th 2009 @ 8:20pm | Report comment
I would agree that if you could sell out your full capacity as memberships each year (say, around 30,000) – you’d never, ever want for anything in perpetuity.
Michael C said | December 1st 2009 @ 7:59am | Report comment
ah, we tried to tell ‘em that there would be this ‘honeymoon’ period……..
but, Lord to his credit, struck while the coals were hot and drew public funds to develop a stadium for the private play-thing franchise teams of super wealthy individuals.
so, don’t you DARE complain (or give the impression of not being 100% grateful for) about a free gift $270 million stadium. THAT would be very, very poor form.
Art Sapphire said | December 1st 2009 @ 8:14am | Report comment
Michael – your constant whinging of the development of the new stadium is pathological.
You don’t see me complaining of the 15 million dollar super gym which the utterly bankrupt Roos were given by the taxpayers. Why don’t you write an article complaining about the waste of taxpayers money so your boys can have a nice spa bath.
Millster said | December 1st 2009 @ 2:20pm | Report comment
I come back for a peek here once in a while and its comforting to know, in the midst of such a politically volatile day down there in Oz, that the same old crew are arguing the same old things here on the Roar. (Good work though KB, keep giving it to those ‘wonky-ball’ southerners lad.)
KB said | December 1st 2009 @ 3:41pm | Report comment
Millster terrific to have you back — somethings are just more important than the nation’s 2 party political leadership manoeuvring
~~~~~
KB
Towser said | December 1st 2009 @ 2:46pm | Report comment
Powerhouse club or not,couldnt hold Fabiano. To another Thai club no less:-
http://au.fourfourtwo.com/news/117864,fabianos-early-exit-to-thailand.aspx
Art Sapphire said | December 1st 2009 @ 3:07pm | Report comment
Fabiano was released because he was not getting a game. Since the departure of Allsop, Victory have been playing less long ball and deploying a more mobile front 3. There was no point keeping the lad. Good move by Victory.
Chop said | December 1st 2009 @ 3:19pm | Report comment
I love it, the articles on here make me chuckle so very much…..
Let me get this straight, the powerhouse club in Melbourne, with their high profile, big city, lots of supporters….
So the club that has pumped the so called powerhouse twice this year by a combined 6-0 (the apparently boring Mariners) is nothing….Classic.
Pippinu said | December 1st 2009 @ 3:54pm | Report comment
CCM would have to pump the powerhouse club 6-0 for the next 10 years for peceptions to change.
Towser said | December 2nd 2009 @ 12:37pm | Report comment
The “Australian” gives out the accolades to MV.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/sport/melbourne-has-invested-in-its-future-by-re-signing-midfielder-leigh-broxham/story-e6frg7mf-1225805929399
Just reading this The Roar are 5 years behind on & off the field. They cocked up from word go by accepting the “Lions” bid.. We appointed a football manager last week(young Brazilian) & Ange has just put the feelers out with local BPL coaches to provide a stronger pathway from local club football to the Roar. In other words develop a feeder system.
Pippinu said | December 2nd 2009 @ 12:47pm | Report comment
Towser
thanks for the link – good article.
Stability has been the name of the game – about six regular starters have been there for at least 4 seasons – that shoudln’t be big news – but in the A-League, as young as it is, it actually is a bit of a rarity.
I’m not a huge fan of Broxham’s, and I’m sure Art isn’t either, but I accept what this article is saying that he works hard to fit in with the more “gifted” players, doing the dirty work, tracking back, pressing, winning 50/50 balls, and occasionally bringing a player down – he does have a bad habit of sliding in indiscriminately, and hopefully he can fix that bad habit up in the near future.
He’s not too bad on the ball and with his passing – but he can be inconsistent – and go through lengthy patches where he is abslutely spraying them left, right and centre.
And please, please – leave the dead ball situations to Carlos!!
Towser said | December 2nd 2009 @ 1:08pm | Report comment
Pippinu
I remember at the start of the A-League that each club would send media communications people to have regular meetings with Matt Caroll. I know this because I knew the bloke at the Roar. Supposed to be an exchange of ideas each club learning off the other. Unfortunately that old enemy of progress “Ego” got in the way at the Roar. Again known from the same source.
In comparison MV has been a well oiled machine with each part coordinated to produce close to a Rolls Royce engine than a Kia. Ange is starting to make the right moves,increasing the people with football knowledge around him. Will take time(dont expect much this season) but his moves so far are in the right direction.
Pippinu said | December 2nd 2009 @ 1:17pm | Report comment
Towser
I obviously don’t know the ins and outs of the Roar behind the scenes, and we now all know that Farina had some personal problems, but at least he blooded a fair few kids (in fact, we now have one of the ones he blooded, and not necessarily the best one either, although he scored a good debut goal on the weekend).
That’s certainly one thing that stood out to me observing from afar.
But – and I include the Victory here – over the whole 5 years, just about every club has been next to hopeless at home, with the Roar perhaps the worst off.
Building a following is tough from scratch – but if you can’t get it together especially when you’re at home – that just doubles the difficulty factor!!
AndyRoo said | December 2nd 2009 @ 1:53pm | Report comment
I now live in Brisbane so I attend Brisbane Roar games and even though I accept Greystanes won’t be promoted to the A league I haven’t yet shifted allegiances.
Most of the enjoyment I get is from seeing attacking football or good young players coming through and doing well. Frank played the kids but I am confident Ange will too (he was Australia’s youth coach before) and a couple of the players appeared to have stalled under Farina (Nichols and Kruse) so I am not concerned about the coaching change.
I would be disappointed though if they don’t hold onto Devere. It’s my personal opinion derived from the NSL days is that you know a club is doing badly off the field if they let a player with overseas potential go to another Australian club.
KB said | December 2nd 2009 @ 2:01pm | Report comment
What ever happens at the Roar FC they should sign 21 yr old Oar up for 5 years… Love to have him at SFC or GCU … Second thoughts GCU FC as I could see him play live every home match at Fortress Miron…
~~~~~~
KB
Towser said | December 2nd 2009 @ 2:26pm | Report comment
KB
17 year old Oar,18, 10th December. Already 2 levels of football thinking ahead of his team mates.
Pippinu said | December 2nd 2009 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
Is he still only 17??!!
KB said | December 2nd 2009 @ 3:07pm | Report comment
Wow 17yrs, geeez then sign him up for 12 years … I hope we snap him up if he ever decided to leave the Roar… I know SFC or Gold Coast would love to have him..
cab711 said | December 2nd 2009 @ 2:52pm | Report comment
Entertaining game, especially in contrast to the mediocre Sydney FC performance I went to on Sunday. Guy sitting next to me was crying for his money back. There was 10mins of heart from the players and the rest was ball watching save the usual suspects of Brosque and Collosimo. It takes more than 2 players to make a winning team. Pull you finger out Sunshine!
Thought that Kruse had a good game and really made a good target man. However, saying that I believe GCU just had a real shocker night and made The Vic look real good. This! I believe was what Culina Snr. was alluding to in his eloquent manner. The teams perform the same but if the opposition lags off it gives the other the upper-hand.
Towser said | December 2nd 2009 @ 2:59pm | Report comment
Pippinu
Hard to imagine by his performance I know. Hope to hang onto him at the Roar for a couple more seasons.
Every post is being stopped now for editing. See no reason given the content(as above). Glitch or not, becoming annoying. This happened before also.