Sometimes Greg, you can only be only as good as the team around you. This is especially, the case with the exceptional Barcelona team of last season who took all before them.. With the exception of Ronaldo, 4 out of the top 5 in the Balon D’or played for Barcelona. Then Kaka came 6th.

So what did Madrid do they to combat the dreaded spectre of Barcelona hegemony, they bought Ronaldo and Kaka.

What Freud was complaining was the exorbitant transfer fee Madrid paid for Kaka. 56 million pounds, but Madrid also paid an exorbitant 80 million pounds for Ronaldo.

Considering Real Madrid spent the money – they should be the ones best placed to see how the 2 compare.

Madrid paid about 40% more for Ronaldo than Kaka. But Kaka is 3 years older. If Kaka was Ronaldo’s age you can make an argument Madrid would almost pay the same amount for both players.

Finally, Ronaldo, Kaka, Henry, they are all great players and it would be wonderful if one day Australia could have a player of such talent. Kewell came close but we have yet to produce a player that kids all over the world want to put on their backs.

I thought some more about why Freud’s inclusion of Kaka may have riled so many people. It’s possibly because of the other names on his list. It might be taken from this that Freud is ranking Kaka alongside Owen, Carragher, etc. Such a ranking is obviously absurd, and I cannot believe Freud would have meant that.

My own interpretation of Freud on Kaka is simply that he’s suggesting that he’s no longer (I stress the last two words) in the top handful. When I agreed with this, I wasn’t aware that the Ballon rankings for 2009 were also in agreement with this opinion, with Kaka not being in the top 5, just as he also wasn’t last year (and yes, I’m aware that 6th is close to top 5, but it is not top 5, and see my earlier comment about there only being so many spaces at the top of a list).

On rugby, I’m wondering if you realize how good Dan Carter is? As my astute, knowledgeable and rugby loving boss said to me last Friday night, “New Zealand has had other loose forwards as good as McCaw, but I don’t think there has ever been a rugby player as good as Carter.” Carter then gave a performance against the French fully consistent with this. There is no single skill at which he’s the best there has ever been, but he’s very strong in every single skill. I have never seen another 10 who is so good in all departments, and 10 is the most important position on the rugby field. I’d say he’s the Pele of rugby, except that I’m not even sure Pele was so strong in all departments (who of us actually saw enough of him to know?)

So, too right you would not say this about Carter, and even to compare Kaka with Carter is not right, because I think we can definitely agree that it’s not right to talk of Kaka as one of the greats of all time. (That said, I do realise that football is played by billions, rugby not even by millions. So the competition to be the greatest in football is many, many times tougher.)

Neither does Henry. That was one of the ‘jokes’ when Henry was in his prime, everyone kept asking ‘will he ever score a goal with his head.’

“Henry (who I think has been overrated since he’s been at Barca)”

But this raises the question, ‘what is overrated,’ because by all accounts, Henry was very poor in his first season at Barca? The fans and press weren’t happy with his form, so does that mean he was overrated? By all accounts he’s improved, but has he really been getting the accolades?

On Kaka, he’s a fabulous player, who was fantastic against Manchester United in ‘that’ semi-final. It was one/two of those performances where you thought, ‘is it possible to stop him’, that’s how good he was.

Zeljko, Holman, John Aloisi, Lucas and Scott McDonald are a bit overrated.

Henry 1.88m
Kaka 1.86m
C Ronaldo 1.86m

Yes, Messi is a little man, Kaka sure isn’t.

It’s my favorite Goal ever, well 2nd favorite after Yankos vs Argentina but that is for personal reasons.

He didn’t single-handedly dismantle United in the CL, United simply didn’t have the experience and it was much a case of them losing as Milan winning, it was the first big match for a lot of the team and Rooney and Ronaldo (who were still just kids) were quite obviously overwhelmed and didn’t perform. I watched that game with a lot of people and even before I came out with the line they all noted that they would come back the next year and they did.

Fact is Milan were better over the two legs and Milan made use of all their experience, they were always going to advance from 3-2 but it was Seedorf who really hurt United in those games, Kaka was just in the right place at the right time to knock in his goals and while he deserved his Ballon d’Or, he has certainly fallen away since then.

Regarding Henry. You possibly prefer a different type of player to me. Messi is a short dribbler with great pace and balance, he can turn on the ball quick and has wonderful interplay but I’m not a fan (that’s not to say he’s not good or didn’t deserve the ballon d’Or), Kaka is similar with his interplay but I like the taller, more powerful players who are also good on the ball like Henry and Ronaldo, more strings to their bow and much more exciting to watch.

Henry (who I think has been overrated since he’s been at Barca) was simply sublime at Arsenal, best example – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbASd5CU3H8 – I was unfortunately watching this game from Aus so seeing a strike like that was sort of hard to take in the wee hours of the morning.

Did you watch the video?? Video evidence can sometimes make a powerful argument.

Educated football watchers like Vicentin replied to your post with a lovely decsription as to why Kaka is regarded so highly. Sure all opinions are subjective, but when global collective football opinion rates Kaka as one of the best current players in the world and Maradona as one of the if not greatest player of all time, then it does carries weight.

I have got no idea what you think of Messi. But I did in my earlier post make an argument on how Freud’s opinion on Messi can be seen as misguided. Freud’s is absolutely entiltled to his opinions. Its a good thing he has a thick skin because he sure cops enough on this site.

Finally, I have never ever called myself a supreme expert on football. I am just a someone who has watched football and sport for over 30 years and I pass the time at work by commenting on this site.

I, actually, appreciate most of your comments as sometimes you looks at things from a refreshingly different perspective.

But one thing I will not do is go on a Rugby thread and write about Dan Carter -
“someone who can run, throw accurately and kick the occasional goal, but he’s nowhere near THAT good”

Perhaps you are also thinking back to last week, where I committed the “sin” of agreeing with something from IFFHS, therefore I’m questionable. I’ll openly admit, as I have before, that you (AS) are super knowledgeable on football, more so than me. But I’d also wager that the guys at IFFHS would give you a very good run for your money.

With your comments on DAM last week I also think you need to work on understanding the concept of sustained excellence. If one judges DAM only on his peaks, then sure, he was perhaps even greater than Pele. But it’s quite legitimate to judge someone on their entire body of work … DAM had a lot of sustained lows that bring the average well down from the amazing height of his peaks.

In defence of Freud on Kaka: an interpretation of what he wrote is that (1) he’s talking about Kaka 2009, not Kaka the Ballon d’Or winner from 2007 (a lot of the present arguments seem to be based on this version of 2 years ago), (2) he’s not saying that Kaka is poor, just that he’s not as out-of-this-world as many people rate him, and (3) It’s easy to say Kaka is “brilliant” one day, the same for Messi the next day, Ronaldo the next, and so on. If the discussion is only about one of them at a time, then each can be the greatest alive. But put them all on a list and order them, so that only one can be the greatest. Where does Kaka come then? He actually hasn’t made the Ballon top 5 for the last 2 years, which if anything adds weight to Freud’s point.

Anyway, you are correct that my knowledge on football minutiae isn’t great these days. I do my best not to comment outside my limits of knowledge. But after one has watched a lot of sport and read a lot about sport, the general patterns tend to become very clear. They change remarkably little. On football I try only to comment on general impressions (Kaka’s ranking being such a thing).

To give an example: do I really need to have watched every minute of Torres playing for Liverpool to say that he should definitely have been in the top 10 for the Ballon? After one has seen tens of thousands of goals scored (as I have – there was a time when I watched many matches per week), one has a built-in compass, and so footage of a couple of goals from Torres is enough to say confidently that he is something truly special.

Whatever, don’t take this the wrong way. I do like and appreciate your (AS’s) work, very much. But no-one is the font of all knowledge, not you, not me, not even the real Freud (Sigmund).

I normally watch a lot of the world cup (I think in 2002 I watched every minute of the quarterfinals plus) and I saw a lot if games in 2006 up until Australia was knocked out. After that I felt quite empty (but not for the Italian penalty, I was watching it with my Pop who blamed Neil straight away… I eventually came around) and the only other match i watched after that was Argentina vs Germany. I didn’t even watch the final.

Also the flaws FOF attributes to Pirlo are valid to a degree – he is bloody slow most of the time these days and it gets him in to trouble which is why he’s often milking fouls, but still if you watch enough of him play rather than the odd game where he doesn’t turn up, he still delivers on the game intelligence and killer passes. I’d probably agree he’s past his prime – who’s goes on about him anyway in the “over-rated” sense anyway? I hear more people slag him off than particularly praise him these days.

I also completely disagree with the disparaging comments on Messi, I think he’s great. I think Ronaldo is great too – I just don’t like him though. I also think they’re ridiculously different to each other. It’s all very Oasis V Blur, or for earlier Australian generations Sherbet Vs Skyhooks. Is that the time? I’m hungry ciao!

But seriously, I think your knowledge on football is questionable, just like the author of the piece, but at least you have the humility to so that you might be wrong.

” Kaka – someone who can run fast and pass accurately and score the occasional goal, but he’s nowhere near THAT good.” This will go down as one of the most ridiculous statements in the history of football. Well done, Freud.

Kaka convincingly won the Balon D’or in 2007 defeating Ronaldo and Messi in the process. The 2 other players that make up the three best current players in the world. But that year he dominated the champions league and also single handedly dismantled Man U. He has also made the FIFPro World XI for the last three years running. The World XI are chosen by the footballers themselves.

Still, not convinced here is further proof. Watch the video and see if Freud’s ridiculous statement still rings true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zU9hsWjKBDA&feature=related

Mystifyingly Freud also rates Henry above Messi. Yes Henry was a very fine player in his prime, but if you compare what Henry and Messi have achieved by Lionel’s current age of 22, well then there is no contest.
I’ll give you a clue at the age of 22 Henry had just joined Arsenal. Henry’s stellar years were in his mid twenties.
Messi’s best years are still ahead of him.

Oh yes and there was that goal he scored – should not forget that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIep5g_GeSQ

Freud might write alot about football, Greg, but unforunately, he views the football world in EPL prescription rose coloured glasses.

Freud, I like this on Kaka.

The other element you forgot to mention is that he’s Brazilian. Just doing a bit of pop psychology on the run here (so I may be wrong), but I think a lot of people have the attitude that Brazil’s marquee player at any moment must automatically be one of the best few players in the world, because of Brazil being what they are. Yes, this is very often the case (Pele, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, etc.), but it need not always be. Sometimes a football team can be one of the very best in the world because it is strong from 1 to 11, as opposed to being one of the very best because it has some of the very best players in the world. I may be wrong, but I suspect that the former scenario describes Brazil at the moment.

Actim is not a respected measure of form, the Actim Index is based on stats, not how good a player is.. That’s like saying your fantasy league team could beat anyone because they finish top out of 2 million – it’s ALL based on statistics, players get points for everything they do, Chelsea have conceded just 8 goals in the EPL, that’s why Cech is top of the Keepers.

“there is not one Man U player there” – well that’s fantastic, whose second on the table? Is Steven Hunt really better than Rooney? No, Rooney’s score is based on the goals he scores, he just hit a hat trick last week and Hunt is an Ireland International who plays for 15th placed Hull yet he is above Rooney in the list.

That tells the whole story.

Top 10 players, top ten goalkeepers, take your pick of either ranking – there is not one Man U player there – check for yourself.

Actim is a respected and objective measure of form.

How would there be a Man Utd keeper on the list? Van der Sar was out injured so two keepers have both played half the games, they wouldn’t have earnt enough points to make the list.

The Actim index is based on stats, Chelsea are top of the table and have only conceded 8 goals this season, not thanks to the brilliance of Cech but the hard work of their midfield, some decent defending and some poor refereeing but he is the one who benefits on this list.

http://www.premierleague.com/page/Top10Keepers/

I wonder if you know who is waaaaayyy ahead at number one? Perhaps not so overrated after all then. Interesting that there are no Man U players in the top 10 at all…

Henry however has lost that bit of pace on which his game heavily relies and Barca have screwed him over. Wenger started him through the middle at Monaco, got him back from Juve where they’d tried to stick him on a wing, put him back through the middle at Arsenal – where he was untouchable for a couple of seasons – and then Barca try to play him as a wide forward to suit the team.

Henry was brilliant but like Ronaldo – not Cristiano, the Brazilian – his star has fallen with his pace.

Oh but then again, a triple then a double and the last 3 league crowns in a row…

I guess some of United’s players might be – in your opinion – overrated but the trophies don’t lie.