One day there will only be Rugby
Roar Pro
By sheek, 11 Dec 2009 The Crowd is a Roar Pro
- Tagged:
- NRL, Rugby League, Rugby Union
346 Have your say
No, I’m not suggesting the demise of any other football codes, just the coming together of rugby union and rugby league.
I have no doubt that at some point in the future, these two rugby codes will come together. Whether these two codes will merge in a roughly equal partnership with the ‘new’ rugby exhibiting characteristics of both codes, or as some suggest more likely, there is a hostile takeover of league by union, remains to be seen.
I’m not interested in getting into a hysterical frenzy over this, although no doubt some fans of each code will do so in any case.
I am fond of both union and league, with union being my greater love.
So I have no ulterior motive in suggesting this, other than a logical conclusion.
All the logical wisdom in my body says that at some point in the future, practical common sense, or rationalisation, or whatever you wish to call it, will decide the issue.
Whatever will be the trigger to bring the two rugby codes together, I don’t know, except that it will happen.
The first thing that both union and league fans need to accept is this – neither code is a fool-proof game. There is good and bad in both rugby codes at this point.
One possible trigger for change could be provided by broadcasters and sponsors who no longer find it economically viable to split their resources between two rugby codes.
The broadcasters and sponsors might unburden their concerns to both union and league, and ask them to seek common ground. If they fail to do so, the broadcasters and sponsors themselves would decide the fate of the two codes.
Another global financial crisis might accelerate the process.
A football World Cup in Australia might also provide an accelerant to the two rugby codes coming together.
Appreciating the potent power of world football, both union and league might realise they need to combine their resources if they wish to compete against the mighty reach of football.
Or the trigger could be something ridiculously simple we haven’t thought of as yet. But I have no doubt whatsoever that at some point in the future there will only be ‘rugby’.
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sheek said | December 11th 2009 @ 7:40am | Report comment
Spiro,
Good to see constructive debate. I know it’s a shock for people to have their core belief system rattled.
To me, it’s incongruous the two rugby codes won’t merge/takeover at some point. As I’ve mentioned, the way it might happen is not yet known to us.
Years ago, the VHS versus Beta analogy was used. Technically, Beta videos weren’t any worse than VHS, but the industry simply went with one in favour of the other (I can’t recall exactly the why’s & how’s). I think money (business world) might decide the issue eventually, not the two bodies themselves or their fans.
I do take the possibility of league becoming more gridiron-like, which I’ve suggested at different times previously. Basically, league will have to move one way or the other, I think. It will depend largely on what they intend to do with the scrum.
Brett McKay said | December 11th 2009 @ 8:22am | Report comment
So Sheek, perhaps the Union-League divide is Blu-Ray v HD-DVD
sheek said | December 11th 2009 @ 9:42am | Report comment
Yeah, that’s interesting too…..
Monty said | December 11th 2009 @ 10:26am | Report comment
Brett, Sheek
Ive heard that the winner of the Blu-Ray vs HD DVD is determined by who the adult film industry sides with (apparently this was how the Beta vs VHS war was decided (ahem….not that I would know)). Interesting if it is true…..
Monty
Corey said | December 11th 2009 @ 2:09pm | Report comment
Well BluRay have stated that they will not produce Adult Films (as Sony is the major producer of BluRay and are a “family-friendly” business) yet it looks like, and the tech-heads confirm, that BluRay will win out. But I would like to see this other promotion that was touted a while ago, Half a game of RU and half a game of League, at Suncorp, between Aus and NZ. So the All Blacks vs the Wallabies than the Kangaroos vs the Kiwis. Supposedly it would generate 5mill. for each code.
pothale said | December 11th 2009 @ 9:30am | Report comment
Actually the VHS/Betamax analogy is interesting. I used to work in the TV/video industry when these formats were brought to market.
Sony supposedly had the superior tape and superior machines, but their tapes would only record for an hour. JVC’s VHS tapes and machines had lower quality but longer recording times – enough to capture a full-length movie.
Sony misread the market and stayed aloof to capture the elite end of the market. JVC got down and dirty – rather than keep their technology to themselves they allowed other brands to badge their product and swamp the market. They had 80% of it by the mid-eighties, and Sony Betamax – supposedly the better technology and superior format – was dead in the water. Interestingly, it dragged on and on through the nineties and was only stopped in production in Asian markets about 7 or eight years ago.
Now people can decide for themselves which Rugby code fits Betamax and which fits VHS.
Better quality but not enough duration to satisfy consumers, versus lower quality but longer-lasting which kept the consumers coming in droves.
rugbyfuture said | December 11th 2009 @ 9:44am | Report comment
in any case, beta was supposed to be better than vhs and hd dvd was supposed to be better than blu-ray, the ones that won however, won because they supported the porn industry
slagger knocker said | December 11th 2009 @ 10:00am | Report comment
The porn industry by and large went with VHS and the rest is history.
Roger said | December 11th 2009 @ 2:51pm | Report comment
Bravo sheek, a pity some others cant see the wood for the trees, although poking the mungo bloggers into a frenzy must have been fun for you.
anopinion said | December 11th 2009 @ 2:56pm | Report comment
Beta was considered technologically superior. Lost out due to a few reasons. Porn was only on VHS, VHS had longer recording abilities and most importantly, because VHS was simpler it was cheaper. Thus in the end the people chose not the best product, but rather the one that met their needs for movies, porn and inexpensive.
cookie said | December 11th 2009 @ 7:52am | Report comment
What were the Kiwi’s smoking in 1929?
A 2-3-2 scrum takes out the whole drive of it…
Spiro… i suspect the 15 man game has the right balance…. The No. 8 has a rather specific role
Can someone start a petition for league to axe the scrum…… I mean take it out of the game completely and simply have a quick tap….. The whole notion of front rower in league is pathetic.
Barking Glider….. sure those figures may or may not be accurate but as spiro points out the ball is ‘contestable’ whereas league it basically is not….
Simplest example would be…..
Rugby…. Ball carrier tackled must release the ball…. therefore must consider positional and support play or lose it….
League… Ball carrier is a protected species…. not only doesn’t have to worry about positional nor support play he can hold onto it and better still the defence is not allowed to touch the ball…. What a joke!
This is what we are talking about when we talk about contesting the ball…. the ball is still in play regardless of the attacking teams retention rate.
Barking Glider said | December 11th 2009 @ 8:16am | Report comment
So you agree. RU may look like a contest, but it isn’t.
AC said | December 11th 2009 @ 8:33am | Report comment
No mate, in social rugby it’s definitely a contest. At professional level, less so purely because the execution is better. At all levels in League the ball carrier is a protected species.
Barking Glider said | December 11th 2009 @ 10:01am | Report comment
Who cares about social rugby when we’re discussing a merger of the two professional codes? I stand by what I said.
AndyS said | December 11th 2009 @ 12:05pm | Report comment
I’d disagree BG – there may be a high retention rate but the players have to work to make sure that is the case. If they don’t, they’ll lose the ball. It is a contest where the execution is under constant examination, failures are punished, but at the top level the execution is largely secure. It isn’t just given to them provided they can simply hold on to it.
Barking Glider said | December 11th 2009 @ 12:44pm | Report comment
This logic sounds like it belongs in an episode of Seinfeld. It’s a contest, but 95% of the time it has the same result.
AndyS said | December 11th 2009 @ 12:55pm | Report comment
Because if it wasn’t a contest, it would be 100% the same result with the ball being turned over every time. What we certainly don’t have is no contesting for the ball, but it is still retained.
Barking Glider said | December 11th 2009 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
50/50 is a contest. 95% times I don’t lose, or 1 in 20 you win, that is called a “chance” not a contest.
In any case, the trend is upward. You’ll soon enough be at 100% just to rid the game of all the penalties the so called “contest” brings.
PastHisBest said | December 14th 2009 @ 8:03am | Report comment
Wrong BG. You’re talking about the result. Even if there is a chance that you can get the ball you have a contest. Are you saying that lotto isn’t a contest just because you only have a 1 in 42 gazillion chance of winning?
katzilla said | December 11th 2009 @ 11:12am | Report comment
It Basically gives you 4 loosies cookie. Bad enough the damage 2-3 Loosies can do but imagine Pocock and George Smith both on one side of the scrum and breaking out into a back line?
Elsom and Palu on the Blindside.
oikee said | December 11th 2009 @ 12:12pm | Report comment
Arh Cookie mate, if you had to go flatout all game, i think you would love a 20 second break at the scrum. Yes, we all know its dead, but it gives big forwards who put their bodies on the line for fans, a chance to get 2 breaths of air into their lungs.
Now, if you dont believe me, go do 5 quick laps of the pool, and dont stop mate, your playing rugby league, not tiddly winks,.
LT80 said | December 11th 2009 @ 7:54am | Report comment
“The main principle of rugby union is that as far as possible there is a contest for the ball.
The main principle of rugby league is that as far as possbile the main contest is between players with the ball, especially now that contesting the ruck has been removed from the game.”
Sorry mate, total fiction.
The main principle of both games is running with the ball in hand, toward the opposition try line. This plus a couple of other rules such as that passes must be thrown backwards and players must remain on-side, is what defines both games against other types of football.
Rugby union is only a contest for the ball in limited situations, and in most of these situations the rules are skewed to give the team in possession the advantage. Australian rules is far closer to a continous contest for possession.
Justin said | December 11th 2009 @ 8:38am | Report comment
True, limited situations such as kick-offs, rucks, line outs scrums, bombs.
LT80 said | December 11th 2009 @ 8:59am | Report comment
Exactly.
Sam said | December 11th 2009 @ 10:41am | Report comment
Spiro is right. It is the main principle. The other main principle of the game is that it is one for all shapes and sizes. Running with ball in hand is definitely not a principle of the game – otherwise England, the birthplace of the game, wouldn’t play the way they do. Every situation is a contest for possession, the set pieces, kick-offs, tackle and post-tackle (breakdown). The only place where the contest doesn’t exist very much is in the maul.
Onceinawhile said | December 11th 2009 @ 2:52pm | Report comment
How long can you stand around looking forwards and backwards after you take a mark in AFL, me thinks football is the only true contest for possession
stillmissit said | December 11th 2009 @ 8:01am | Report comment
I agree with you Sheek. THis must happen at some point in the future, maybe globalisation will bring this about. I can see a time where a sport that doesn’t have global appeal to major manufacturers will receive little or nothing and will remain a local oddity.
For all we jump up and down about Murdoch and his money in sport, he jumps up and down about Niki et al. Look for the source of the money and you find the power.
cookie said | December 11th 2009 @ 8:07am | Report comment
Sheek…
Your probably right… at the end of the day money decides pretty much everything…. Just look at the crap we are spoon fed on tele….. movies and all sorts of absolute garbage that few if any want to watch….
The free to air channels have vested interests in league and afl thus we a being force fed particularly afl in nsw that few if anyone gives a stuff about…
Just because the tv is showing it doesn’t mean anyone is necessarily watching it….
Having said that money doesn’t necessarly mean sucess…. basketball, baseball and gridiron tried that avenue years ago and failed miserably… only basketball enjoyed mediocre success in the early 90′s but look at it now…
What Rugby has is it is already a global game and now that its in the olympics more so…. Then the money side well more of that overall not to mention many countries will now pour more funds towards the olympic teams and game in general….
Business wise…. I’d rather invest in a global game with much more appeal than some backwater load of trash…
I wouldn’t dismiss the ‘local phsych’ as I’ve mentioned before… what one grows up with …one will usually have more affilliation with.
Thus Rugby really needs to start promoting itsself Aust wide properly from the ground up and take a leaf or two out of afl/arl marketing books…
oikee said | December 11th 2009 @ 12:21pm | Report comment
Cookie, do you run a bussiness,? and Gilette and Rexona along with other massive companies world wide, Proton, Toyota, Ford, Holden, Harvey Nowman, xxxx VB, the list goes on, all sponser that so called crap, because they are bussiness savy.
Trust me mate, the sponsers are now off the leash for rugby league, and all the old boys are dieing off, so union is up against more than a dead duck in the water. Rugby league at top level, NRL, Kangaroos is what people want, you will see.
Cheers. If you cant see the product is a winner, thats not my worry, my concern is a commission, not worrying about rules or Crowds,. Crowds will eventually come. As will x-mas. And have a merry one. cheers.
As for rugby union promoting itself to the OZ public, ? thought it has the last 100 years, ? And the public is voting with their feet, wonder what happens when the Europeon public do the same, rugby league is only getting warmed up now the shackles are off.
Roger said | December 11th 2009 @ 2:55pm | Report comment
Oikee, have a look outside Sydney and Brisbane mate, its certainly not all all roses for RL. Sydney And Brisbane are an anomoly compared to all other nations which have these two sports. Lets not pretend otherwise…
Mick of Newie said | December 11th 2009 @ 8:07am | Report comment
Spiro
the move to 11 a side in league died when the 10 metre rule came in. League currently has it right in terms of number of tries scored in a match (even though too many come from kicks).
Unions defensive structures where forwards are not required to join the ruck or maul and a league type defensive line is set up is in my view the cause of many of the furstrations with union. Too much kicking os not the problem in union but the symptom of the difficulty of breaking the line and the punishment for transgressions being too harsh.
League and Union provide good evidence of cause and effect for rule changes, reducing players in union to 13 would be an option but I am sure some will come up with others. Has 13 a side ever been tried in union? If not is the sole reason the entrenched hatred of the other 13 a side game.
Cookie the league scrums serves a useful purpose, it allows an attacking option where there isn’t 12 blokes evenly spread accross the field. An early spread of the ball can see a greg inglis or a jarred hayne go one on one against a defender. Both codes should look for more options to create these sort of situations.
The Link said | December 11th 2009 @ 3:02pm | Report comment
mick – they trialled an 11 a side game in Toyota Cup last year. Its still on the fringes, but it has some key supporters in the game like Ricky Stuart and Warren Ryan.
PastHisBest said | December 14th 2009 @ 8:05am | Report comment
Only because Ricky’s teams can’t score tries with 13 a-side…
Springs said | December 14th 2009 @ 8:12am | Report comment
They had an 11-a side cup back in the 30s, it didn’t work out.
M1tch said | December 11th 2009 @ 8:21am | Report comment
I doubt the codes will ever merge..the northern hemisphere hate the proposed rule changes, they would rather union die than merge with the ‘other’ rugby.
France wouldnt let it happen..
Who Needs Melon said | December 11th 2009 @ 8:24am | Report comment
Ah. Here’s your problem: “at some point in the future, practical common sense, or rationalisation, or whatever you wish to call it, will decide the issue”. Nothing is ever decided using “practical common sense” – it’s the rarest commodity on Earth!
sheek said | December 11th 2009 @ 9:58am | Report comment
Melon,
You may right. My entire argument might unravel on the assumption that logical, practical common sense will have anything to do with it!!!
oikee said | December 11th 2009 @ 12:31pm | Report comment
Sheek, we have been surviving for 100, i dont think we will ever see a merge, not now, rugby league is starting to get warmed up, and the people, ozzies are loving what they see, the only merger will be 7′s union, to league 13, the 15 man game is slowly killing itself now, with 7′s, this process will quicken the death. Trust me, i know what i talk about, i warned you in a 7′s post months ago.
Always enjoyed the wrestling, now thats entertainment.
Rugby league is the ultimate modern day battle of gladators and whippets and small men with skills, we have reached the point of no return, the people have spoken. The final process is now being fought with a commission, which will put us onto another level, why do you think players are returning to league, they know what the future holds, Bird, classic case, could have earned 1 million in france, playing now for 100 thousand, go figure.
My classic line, its coming brother, sorry, hulksters line,.
Glen said | December 12th 2009 @ 12:34am | Report comment
Yep Oikee, league has survived 100 years but it has not moved anywhere.
Name one (just one) country where league is now a major game that didn’t play it even 25 years ago. No, better still name one country anywhere in the world where league is the no 1 code! There’s a thousand bucks in it for you! Good Luck!
It is a small force in the North of England, a MINOR, minor sport in France, a minor sport in NZ and South Africa have just given up.. they don’t even field a team anymore.
It’s played by a few home-sick 45 year old expats in the US and Japan and a couple of toothless old women somewhere in the Ukraine. More players join European, South American and Japanese clubs rugby clubs each year than the entire intake of the NRL. Get a grip man…
Come on mate… just 1 country… can’t be that hard!
Adrian said | December 12th 2009 @ 5:05am | Report comment
Papua New Guinea, let me know when you’d like to send that $1000 to me
Glen said | December 12th 2009 @ 8:04pm | Report comment
Sorry mate, Talk about grasping at straws!!! LMFAO…. PNG!!!
You miss by 35 years. The Papua New Guinea Rugby Football League was formed 1949 (that would be 60 years ago)… Keep trying. I’ve still got the grand ready!
Springs said | December 12th 2009 @ 10:33pm | Report comment
Glen you said
‘No, better still name one country anywhere in the world where league is the no 1 code! There’s a thousand bucks in it for you!’
In PNG League is the national sport, Adrian deserves $1000
Oh, and League is a popular sport in Fiji where it was introduced in 1992. Seems I deserve $1000 too…
PastHisBest said | December 14th 2009 @ 8:10am | Report comment
Springs, if you’re going to paraphrase please do so accurately.
M1tch said | December 12th 2009 @ 8:34pm | Report comment
actually Sth Africa do field a team, its the 3rd most popular sport in NZ and 4th most popular in England, the amnrl should show you the teams have many local born and bred yanks..
and btw are you saying the entire european rugby union championships are bigger than the 1 Rugby League comp in Australia? LOL wow I would be shocked if they didnt have more players…
Springs said | December 12th 2009 @ 10:31pm | Report comment
Mate there would not be many countries where Union is a major sport when the country didn’t play it 25 years ago, I doubt there are any.
Hobart said | December 11th 2009 @ 8:40am | Report comment
SHEEK – the Beta system was better than VHS (with the right cable) but lost out because a VHS cartridge held more, which was great for long movies. Also, there was more brand choice with VHS. So much for technology.
SPIRO – what union needs is more stars. At present Dan Carter is the only super star now that Wilko and Steyn flunked in the autumn tests. There are no giants anymore – no Jonah, Campo, no Blanco, no Rives, no Michael Jones, no Zinzan.
There’s not much reason for a leaguie to go see a union game what with the laws the way they are. The only person who seems happy with the present laws is the boss of the IRU.
You’re right about the pain associated with any projected merger of union and league, as for one very basic thing, it would mean rewriting the laws of both games and it’s easier to get blood from a turnip than to get Twickers to change, and Castereagh Street, as the dominant party in this phantom merger, would no doubt insist on expunging the contested scrum and the breakdown. They might buy the lineout as long as the ball could be thrown in crooked.
Nobody in the States rants about the laws of American football mainly because they had the good sense, years ago, to make penalties yardage penalties, something which has been suggested many times to the IRU over the years but they refuse to think about it. For them, rugby is still all about a try at goal. A kicking game for territory, a pushover try and then comes the point of the game – the conversion. Tom Brown’s schooldays are with us still.
It took years for the forward pass to be made legal in American football. The marginally, I say marginally, forward pass in union should go the way of the dodo. How refs and touchies, 15
metres behind the play, can tell when a pass between two galloping players is lateral or a tweensy bit forward is beyond me. Furthermore, a player should be allowed to recover his own fumble. Get rid of the knock-on rule – it demands perfection, and there ain’t no more perfect players.
sheek said | December 11th 2009 @ 9:44am | Report comment
Thanks for correcting me, Hobart. As I said, I wasn’t sure of the why’s & how’s, but now I’m clear!
I’ve sometimes thought it would be a good decision by league to move further away from union & closer to gridiron, but still far enough away from both to be viewed as an entirely & uniquely distinct sport.
League has to resolve the scrum. My idea is to replace it with a line of scrimmage, & have a forward pass on the first tackle play only. After that, the remaining tackle plays return to league as we now it now.
This way, league has characteristics of both union & gridiron while being entirely different from both.
Rickety Knees said | December 11th 2009 @ 8:46am | Report comment
What we have here is something that is unique to Australia. The IRB and the rest of the world’s rugby community could not give a hoot about Rugby League. There would NEVER be any compromise on rule changes to bring the games together just to appease Australia.
The only scenario where I believe it will work is the demise of Rugby League and I don’t believe that is likely to happen given the passionate tribalism of the RL community.
Given the very limited player stocks of Australian Rugby – I too look at RL players such as Haynes, Inglis, Slater and dream about what might be. But it is a dream and I believe will remain so.
oikee said | December 11th 2009 @ 12:45pm | Report comment
You dream about league players Rickety, and maybe you could sleep better if you did not have to dream, just go watch rugby league mate. Those players are being reproduced at junior level now. So your dreams wont subside mate, they might get worse for you now that rugby league is producing these players at the tender age of 17 to 22. Yes, we have a whole new batch about to hit the market next year.
Rickety Knees said | December 11th 2009 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
I have played both games – sorry mate RL just does not do it for me. In over 100 years RL has not, I repeat, not been able to crack a new market – not even in Melbourne. IMHO your faith in a yet to be founded commission is premature. RL has its place in the Australian psyche and that is unlikely to change for quite a while but let’s not get carried away just yet – when you can put on an international event watched by more than 1 billion people where anyone of six teams could win a world cup then you can start crowing.
Barking Glider said | December 11th 2009 @ 1:04pm | Report comment
Please give us an example of one major populated city that has changed its established professional football code allegiance from one code to another?
Barking Glider said | December 11th 2009 @ 2:42pm | Report comment
Hey Rickety? Still looking for an answer here.
Rickety Knees said | December 11th 2009 @ 2:55pm | Report comment
BG – I am not suggesting that that has happened nor will it happen.
If you look at my first post:
“The only scenario where I believe it will work is the demise of Rugby League and I don’t believe that is likely to happen given the passionate tribalism of the RL community”.
Sam el Perro said | December 11th 2009 @ 3:16pm | Report comment
“In over 100 years RL has not, I repeat, not been able to crack a new market.”
PNG?
Justin said | December 11th 2009 @ 1:07pm | Report comment
Space is what makes so many of these athletes look world beaters.
Barking Glider said | December 11th 2009 @ 3:03pm | Report comment
Rickety – I was referring to thisstatement you made: ” In over 100 years RL has not, I repeat, not been able to crack a new market”
No major western city has changed its football allegiance once established. RU hasn’t got any further in 100 years either. Soccer still dominates its cities, and the AFL has its. Same in North America.
Yet you suggest that rugby league has failed. Just which city on the planet do you think it ever had a chance of cracking?
Rickety Knees said | December 11th 2009 @ 3:17pm | Report comment
My point is that whilst Rugby now is played nationally in over 100 nations in the world – RL still is played in the same pockets it was 100 years ago.
Springs said | December 11th 2009 @ 3:43pm | Report comment
Rugby has been in those nations for 50-100 years, and is mostly in ‘rugby league-sized pockets’ in those countries.
M1tch said | December 12th 2009 @ 8:30pm | Report comment
thats very incorrect..need to check out rugby league world sites first