Heineken Cup flowing, even when it’s snowing.
By pothale, 22 Dec 2009 Pot Hale is a Roar Guru
- Tagged:
- Heineken Cup, International Rugby, Rugby Union
Related coverage
The turnaround ties in Round 4 of the Heineken Cup were played this weekend, despite several snow blizzards, frozen pitches, postponed games and icy terraces.
And fortunately the tries kept coming too after an initial bout of stodgy rugby.
The back-to-back period of the Cup is regarded as the most critical for teams in setting them up for the final pool stages at the end of January.
Teams that played at home last weekend, travelled away this weekend to meet the same opponents.
Friday’s bout had only one match – Dragons v Biarritz – lined up and early snowfalls postponed it with Rodney Parade frozen out.
By Saturday lunchtime, matches featuring Edinburgh V Bath; Treviso v Northampton; Dragons v Biarritz; Toulouse v Cardiff Blues were all meant for kick-off.
Except willing hands were needed to wield snow shovels to clear many of the pitches. Delays of up to an hour were expected.
Word came that the King Baudoin Stadium in Brussels had frozen over and the planned sell-out match between Stade Francais and Ulster was postponed.
A mad scramble was underway to find another stadium to play the game within 24 hours somewhere in France that didn’t have snow.
At first it looked like the weather was going to prevent anyone crossing the try-line as Edinburgh battled gamely against Bath eventually winning by three penalties to two – 9-6. The two teams at times could hardly see in front of them with the swirling wind and snow.
One eye was being kept on a match that had just kicked off in Italy behind schedule. Treviso were inducing heart attacks in another coaching team. Instead of rolling over like Italian teams had done in the past, the side that had already beaten Perpignan in the opening round were 3-0 up on the Saints after 20 minutes. Unfortunately, South African Marius Goosen, hadn’t brought his proper kicking boots or they’d have been further ahead by the time the Saints got over the tryline just before half-time. Treviso stayed on Northampton’s tail all the way to the end, getting over the whitewash twice but falling short 18-21 at the final whistle.
Meanwhile the Dragons were hoping to haul Biarritz back from romping away into the quarter-final stages at the top of Pool 2. To no avail, as the French side showed no signs of weakness in the Welsh den at Parc y Scarlets.
The postponement did no favours for the crowd attendance with the two squads and their assembled coaching teams seeming to dwarf the 600 odd who turned up.
It was probably just as well as the Dragons were eventually vanquished 8-26. They had the majority of the pressure in the first half but precious few points to show for it. Fussell touched down for the Welshmen, but Dmitri Yachvilli was in flying form with Biarraitz and notched three kicks to go in 8-9 ahead at the break.
Yachvilli crossed the whitewash twice in the second half and kicked his conversions in a display that will have Marc Lievremont relieved since he’s lost Dupuy for 6 months. Biarritz are now practically qualified on 18 points, but they need wins from their last two matches to guarantee them a home match in the next stage.
French dominance continued on home soil with Toulouse quickly dismissing any notions of a Cardiff Blues repeat of their victory last weekend. And it was another sometime French scrum-half who got them through.
Standing in for NZ regular, Byron Kelleher, Freddie Michalak directed events with great assuredness whilst notching 6 kicks and won the man of the match award. The three-time H Cup winners made hard work of it though, and both sides only managed a try apiece.
Toulouse finished 23-7 to the good, and only lead their Pool by one point over Sale Sharks. They’ve work to do. Cardiff on the other hand, are now likely out of this year’s comp.
However, one Welsh side was making hay despite the weather. Ospreys had their return fixture with Italian side Viadana. They ran out easy winners, running in 6 tries to finish 45-19. They lead their Pool by 4 points ahead of Top 14 perennial bridesmaids, Clermont Auvergne, and two-time Cup winners, Leicester Tigers, in the hunt.
The two teams met at tea-time on Saturday in Welford Road, with Tigers’ fans hoping to keep their qualification hopes alive after their team was squashed by a storming display from Clermont in the first match. The Tigers didn’t disappoint. A cracking match finished 20-15 to the home side, and their two tries scored in either half made the crucial difference. This pool will likely go to the wire in the final weekend in a three-way battle with the Ospreys to decide the winner.
Pool 6 has two Irish sides in it. London Irish had disposed of Brive in the last round easily, and this week was even easier as the notoriously poor French travellers fetched up in the Madejski Stadium and were promptly put to the sword by the Exiles, collecting their four try bonus point in the final minute from a brilliant display by the returning from injury, Delon Armitage.
In truth, Irish had the game in the bag by half-time leading 20-6, and the final scoreline of 34-13 probably doesn’t do justice to their dominance throughout the game. Brive managed a couple of record lows in the match – they had four players sin-binned and are still without a solitary point after 4 games.
They’ll be easy meat for their next opponents, Leinster, who completed a double rout of the Scarlets at the RDS in Dublin. A sell-out crowd of 18,500 saw the Heineken Cup champions deliver one of their best season performances.
Seven tries to one and a much more complete display than last week saw Rob Kearney, Gordon Darcy and Brian O’Driscoll cross the line twice in a series of sweeping back-line moves, and in a repeat of last week, the revitalized 31 year-old Shane Horgan galloping down his wing for a length of the pitch run after an interception in his own 22.
It finished 39-7.
Any signs that Leinster might miss Rocky Elsom are being quickly dispelled with youngsters Kieran McLoughlin and man of the match, Sean O’Brien, putting in commanding performances in the backrow, alongside the NH Number 8 of the year, Jamie Heaslip.
Kidney will be happy to see some of his newbies developing nicely in time for the 6 Nations – with Cian Healy also putting in a powerful turn in the front row. Australian Shaune Berne had a disappointing night with the boot, only managing to convert 2 of the tries on offer.
But he lead the line well, making a couple of telling passes for his team-mates to score. The bookies have shortened the odds on the Leinstermen repeating their Cup victory to second favourites at 4/1.
They now lead their pool on scoring points difference over London Irish. There’s a humdinger of a match between the two to settle the winner at the end of January.
The last four matches played on Sunday saw Stade Francais play their postponed game against Ulster at Stade Jean Bouin. Losing Dupuy and Attoub to gouging citings didn’t affect them as they moved past Ulster to top their pool in a 29-16 victory with only a single try in the match.
Beauxis kicked all the points, and the Ulstermen had only themselves to blame in not picking up from their victory in last week’s match.
Still this pool remains open with Stade only leading by four points and Ulster and Edinburgh remain in hot pursuit over the last two rounds.
Gloucester and Glasgow fought out what is likely to be a dead rubber with Biarritz sitting pretty at the top of their pool and ten points ahead of the rest. Glasgow took an early lead through two penalties, but the Cherry & Whites fought grimly back and with a try apiece from Brown and Sharples, finished 19-6 to the good.
Sale Sharks are one of the teams in hot pursuit of Toulouse in Pool 5, and their victory over Harlequins – 21-17 – kept them in the hunt. With two tries each, it was a kicking duel between Charlie Hodgson and Nick Evans that settled it with Hodgson landing his conversions and 3 penalties with assurance.
The final match of Round 4 served up on Sunday was a bit like the last of the wine at the Cana wedding. Perpignan vs Munster.
The Top 14 champions on their home turf up against the Magners League champions who have been less than powerful this season.
The Munstermen sneaked a victory last week through the restored boot of Ronan O’Gara despite Perignan getting three tries in the match.
All the pundits before the match had Munster painted as the rapidly fading, ageing heavyweight fighter.
The two-times H Cup winners had been lucky. But playing Perpignan at home where they had gone undefeated for 40-odd matches was a bridge too far.
According to Stuart Barnes in the Sunday Times before the match “The Red tide will probably be reduced to a trickle in Perpignan today … if they are to come away from the home of the French champions with a solitary bonus point, let alone a victory that would rank high among their list of great European achievements,” he opined.
“Munster are not so much set to make history in Perpignan as become history…… This is the most daunting assignment in European rugby,” said the former English international and Sky TV pundit.
Barnes didn’t mince his words in his assessment of Perpignan’s strengths: “Munster’s pack will be savaged at the scrum, the midfield will be hanging on in defence and the ears will be screaming for release from the constant haranguing of this volatile crowd….There was a palpable sense of decline in the Limerick air last Friday; today could see the fall of what was once a mighty side.”
Some people swear that Barnes did it on purpose. He knows that nothing gets up the nose of Munster players than calling their ability and values into question, particularly in making the hard yards at scrumtime and in the breakdown. McGahan probably pinned the newspaper piece to the dressing-room wall. Adding to the stew had been the unfortunate comments from a 21 year old Perpignan player who thought Munster had played in the previous game like academy players.
Cue a firestorm at Stade Aime Giral. The Top 14 champions never knew what hit them. Or when they did, what to do about it. In a display that was as blistering as it was breathtaking, Munster won the scrums, lineouts and breakdowns with commanding ease as the game wore on.
O’Connell played one of the games of his career, pilfering ball on every second Perpignan throw and demanding 100% accuracy from his own players. Mafi, Earls, O’Leary all had their stone faces on. Warwick at full-back and Howlett on the wing looked like they were going to burst, so intense were their faces at kick-off. With 7 minutes gone, someone turned to me, and said this is going to be one of those days – Perpignan are dead and they don’t even know it.
Big hits abounded. Mafi, Wallace and Leamy acting as personal ball-wreckers whoever they came up against. There was plenty of tetchy stuff, with Gallic snarling and swearing to go with the raucous stadium atmosphere.
USAP were first on the scoreboard and the crowds were cheering. O’Gara missed a drop goal and then nailed a penalty kick. USAP threatened through Tincu, Mermox and Mele making breaks. Munster weathered and then hit back with Quinlan powering towards the line. He was held up but the pressure continued and Denis Fogarty went over. O’Gara converted.
The two sets of forwards mashed into each other, and Perp gained a couple of penalties before the half-time to leave it 9-10 at the break. They could have been ahead when Munster got sloppy in the last 5 minutes of the first half, but Mele missed two chances of kicks.
The second half opened with a bang, or rather a head-butt – by Schuster on Leamy. Cue sin bin. And a penalty by O’Gara. And then another. And then O’Gara got sloppy, and got binned for cynical play. Munster didn’t withdraw. They moved to Perp’s line and a fantastic pass by Warwick to Hurley put them over the line again.
Perpignan rallied briefly and off a lineout, Guirado stole over the line to briefly close the gap. As O’Gara returned to the field, on came de Villiers from the bench. He made his presence felt within a couple of minutes, making a brilliant break to the line and touching down under the posts. The congratulations from his team-mates showed that he has finally arrived.
Munster could not be denied. The fourth try had to come. As the clock ticked to 80, Munster were camped in the Perpignan 22. Munster stole the ball again at the breakdown and out it came to O’Gara. He looked up at the onrushing defence, and calmly chipped through on the ground, Howlett sped through and grounded. O’Gara converted and the ref blew the whistle. 37-19 to Munster.
Cue pandemonium in the streets of Cork and Limerick. The bookies re-installed the Munstermen as favourites.
Not a bad way to start the Christmas.
Enjoy the break, everyone.
Enjoy sports? Enjoy a bargain? All Sports Online has your favourite sporting brands at up to 70% off. Online only, premium quality sporting goods and merchandise at discounted prices. Get a deal now.
Do you have what it takes to become a sports writer? Write for the roar
Rugby Union articles
- Will Super Rugby crowds continue their slide? (178)
- Will South African rugby force a Super 21 by 2018? (171)
- Brumbies 2012: New coach, new players, new attitude (128)
- Pocock set to be named new Force skipper (56)
- Can the ‘Tahs win the battle after losing the Waugh? (51)
- What does the future hold for the Six Nations (50)
- Wales and France the early stars of the Six Nations (48)
- Wales’ Davies banned for ‘tip tackle’ (2)
- Graham Henry’s rugby future confirmed (12)
- Barnes to lead Waratahs in first hitout
- Harris and Lucas in Reds No.10 audition (3)
- Wales show Southern Hemisphere how to play running rugby (18)
- Dan Parks and the unsolved questions of expat rugby (61)
- David Pocock: a skipper my Force teammates will fight for (21)
- Wales show Southern Hemisphere how to play running rugby (18)
- What opening matches of Six Nations taught us (16)
- Will Super Rugby crowds continue their slide? (198)
- Clinical Chiefs cost rusty Rebels in Corio (9)
- Six Nations shows rugby is a parochial game at heart (5)
- Goose’s Super Rugby up-and-comer XV for 2012 (29)
- What does the future hold for the Six Nations (50)
- Explore:
- Heineken Cup, International Rugby, Rugby Union

Wavell Wakefield said | December 22nd 2009 @ 2:22am | Report comment
Interesting article, Pothale.
Barnes loves melodrama. Following the Munster loss to Northampton he declared that the Munstermen were baically dead and buried, despite collecting a valuable bonus point and despite it being the first or second game of the group stages. Iit must be all that wine.
The Irish teams are picking up where they left off last season, the Welsh sides are as bad as they were last season and the French teams are stereotypically erratic (terrible away records abound).
Parisien said | December 22nd 2009 @ 2:49am | Report comment
Love the title this time Pothale!
Knives Out/Wavell, perhaps you meant “the French teams are stereotyically consistent (terrible away records abound)?”
Wavell Wakefield said | December 22nd 2009 @ 2:53am | Report comment
I meant what I said, and that is made abundantly clear by the world ‘stereotype’. The inference is glaringly obvious.
Parisien said | December 22nd 2009 @ 4:29am | Report comment
I understood. Glaringly obvious as you say. But I think it reads even better as stereotypically and consistently erratic. Just an opinion or suggestion…
Wavell Wakefield said | December 22nd 2009 @ 4:49am | Report comment
I’ll keep that in mind, although I do think that stereotypically consistent lends itself to what I am trying to articulate. Perhaps consistently stereotypic lends itself to what you are saying? Perhaps there is very little difference?
Parisien said | December 22nd 2009 @ 4:58am | Report comment
Glad you agree with me for a change. Both are better than “stereotypically erratic”.
pothale said | December 22nd 2009 @ 4:58am | Report comment
Parisien, you’re beginning to look like a guy searching for a row in an empty room.
Parisien said | December 22nd 2009 @ 5:30am | Report comment
Pothale, you are absolutely right, an empty room with the lights out and the windows open.
I was amazed – he just keeps coming back for it and bites every time. You know the guy – is he mad?
Anyway, I’ll stop.
Wavell Wakefield said | December 22nd 2009 @ 6:08am | Report comment
Please stop acting like this and do not type about me as if I don’t exist. It’s unnecessary, low-class and pointless. There is no need for your continued rudeness. This is an opinion blog, and this is the rugby union section. I have seen so little rugby debate from you that I am genuinely perplexed what you think you’re achieving apart from being personal and argumentative. You certainly aren’t contributing to any topic in an adult and positive manner. Somebody has taken the time to write an article so I would suggest that you contribute with appropriate content ot just go away.
Wavell Wakefield said | December 22nd 2009 @ 5:02am | Report comment
‘Glad you agree with me for a change. Both are better than “stereotypically erratic”.’
I think you mean ‘stereotypically erratic’, and not “stereotypically erratic”. Irrespective, I don’t agree with you, I think to label the French stereotypically erratic is accurate and apt. I mistyped what I said, meaning to type ‘stereotypically erratic’ and not consistent. Stereotypically consistent implies that consistency is the French stereotype and could only be qualified by a non-bracketed reference to the generic French away record. For example, ‘The French stereotype is consistent as the HC clubs away record is as erratic as ever.’
I agree with Pothale. Do you not actually like to engage about rugby union? The HC does contain various French teams after all.
cookie said | December 22nd 2009 @ 6:45am | Report comment
pity we can’t really watch any of it in Aust….
Rickety Knees said | December 22nd 2009 @ 7:31am | Report comment
Great post Pothole – on another matter – would there be any merit in Rugby being played in the summer months – say in the evening? It would provide firmer pitches, promote more ball-in-hand play and be more spectator friendly.
Wavell Wakefield said | December 22nd 2009 @ 7:38am | Report comment
But surely that undermines the entire point of rugby which is that it is an outdoor winter sport?
Rickety Knees said | December 22nd 2009 @ 8:09am | Report comment
WW – I am interested – where does it say that the “entire point of rugby is an outdoor winter sport” or is that your opinion?
Wavell Wakefield said | December 22nd 2009 @ 8:23am | Report comment
It doesn’t say it in any rulebooks as far as I’m aware, hence I said (to paraphrase) isn’t that the point, and not ‘it’s a rule to play rugby in the winter’, RK. Rugby did develop in England and the game developed as a winter sport. Bayonne’s rugby section (having originally been an athletics and rowing club), for example, was created so that the local residents had a winter sport to play. That’s why there are constant debates about the merits of stadiums using a roof given that rugby is an outdoor sport that has always been played through the winter.
LT80 said | December 22nd 2009 @ 8:21am | Report comment
No wait…isn’t the entire point of rugby that it’s a game for all shapes and sizes?
Wavell Wakefield said | December 22nd 2009 @ 8:24am | Report comment
All weather and all sizes…
AndyS said | December 22nd 2009 @ 1:54pm | Report comment
I’d've said it is traditionally a winter sport, rather than it being a specific requirement or defining characteristic of the sport (such as, say, ice hockey).
pothale said | December 22nd 2009 @ 2:30pm | Report comment
RK – leaving aside WW’s point about it being an all-weather game, I’m not sure it would be a runner in all countries. In Ireland, for example, Soccer was shifted to the summer months to avoid conflicts with other sports. And in GAA, football, hurling and camogie all take place across the summer with the finals in September. Rugby would have to remain a winter game for it to survive, and not cause endless havoc at professional and amateur levels in other sports.
Although I’m not sure if Winter game is not a bit of a misnomer. The rugby season start in August (Autumn) and runs through winter, spring and into the first month of summer in May, leaving aside the June tests down South.
Nick S said | December 22nd 2009 @ 8:54am | Report comment
When the Italians enter two teams in the Magners League and thus the Super 10 is dropped from top-flight European Rugby (which is how it’s going to work as far as I can gather) does anybody think there is merit to dropping the number of teams in the Heineken Cup to 16? It would be 5 – English, 5 – French, 5 – Celtic/Italian and the 16th side would be a play-off winner between the 6th placed sides of the two nations that wen’t the furtherest in the last cup (eg. Say Toulouse and Munster play the final fo the last Heneken then the next year the 6th Magners would verse the 6th French).
Just a thought, because other wise as far as I can discern with only three competitions (totallying 38 teams) ‘competing’ for 24 places sought of rewards medicoracy (much as the 9 out of 10 qualification for the Magners League does now).
pothale said | December 22nd 2009 @ 9:39am | Report comment
Not sure about dropping it to 16, but I’d be in agreement on heating up the competition for places, Nick.
I had a similar thought around the Magners when it becomes a 12 team league. Instead of the 2 or 3 automatic places for each of the countries of Ireland, Wales and Scotland, it would go to the Top 6 automatically and then play-off matches between Celtic, English and French teams for remaining spots.
Pajovic said | December 22nd 2009 @ 9:51am | Report comment
I can’t see the point of culling so many teams from the Magners league in the HC. The whole point of it (ML) was to increase the number of competitive games that smaller rugby playing nations top teams/provinces could play in the top flight. This then, in turn increases the competitiveness of their national teams. This then increases the competitveness of the 6 nations and accordingly makes for a better challenenge internationally for all the 6 nation national teams.
The ML concept includes giving the best teams from Scotland Wales and Ireland the chance to compete in the Heineken Cup each year, where players play at a quasi test level in many games. England and France have the opportunity to play 6 teams in it each year (this year England got 7), Wales 4, Ireland 3, Scotland 2. The 2 nations with the largest playing pools have more teams which is fair enough. Italy then have their 2. The Celtic teams have as many (taking into account the wild card magners place) as is justifiable given their player base and as their budgets allow. To scrap this system for Nick’s proposed system would make no sense. Imagine a HC with say 3 Irish teams and 2 welsh teams with no Scottish teams based on a hypothetical ML top 5 finish? It would spell the end of the ML and kill interest in the HC. A similar structure/development philosophy is used in the Super 14. Look at the Saffers player base, then look at their representation compared to that of NZ and then look at the Aussies player base. The whole point there is for the Super 14 competition to be (a) entertaining (b) competitive and (c) a vehicle what will ultimately improve the quality of internatonal competition in the tri nations, which, it undoubtedly does. That’s the raison d’etre. Each country is given the chance to develop a sufficent amount of players to become as cometitive as possible at a national level. This is essentially what the ML strives to do too. And it does it reasonably well too.
Why tinker with the HC format, it is already many peoples’ favourite tournament. Look at when top teams slip up against ‘lesser’ teams each week and the dramatic games and clashes that are made possible by virture of the diversity and randomness of teams and fixtures in it. This is what makes it so special. Teams play against each other in European Competition on an irregular basis, thus keeping the whole concept fresh. I’m not taking a swipe at Super 14, but having followed it closely on tv and from the stands, its just doesn’t have freshnesss and the ‘once-of-ness’ that you get with the Heineken Cup. It is a tad stale in many many games although it has some great games and magnificent skills too. It’s just a little less interesting as a spectacle (in my opinion).
If it isnt broken, then don’t fix it. Many things might (arguably) need tinkering in rugby, but HC rugger isn’t one of them.
Nick S said | December 22nd 2009 @ 2:09pm | Report comment
Many fair points re the incredibly likely situation that Italy and Scotland would not have teams in the Heineken Cup, limiting it to just four nations. Though Scotland and Italy would still have teams in the Challenge Cup, which could be greatly expanded (say to 32, to compensate for only 16 in the HC). Though of course it wouldn’t be the same… But this would open up more spots for lesser nations’ clubs.
As much as I agree with your points regarding its benefits for the Celtic nations international test sides, the English and French clubs do have a legitimate reason to feel hard done by. They are the clubs that actually make money and draw in fans. The Magners League has relatively low crowds and TV ratings when compared to these two competitions, and their fans tend to only come out in huge numbers for HC games, and thus the French and English clubs do have some claim to a more democratic shot at the spots rather than the current 6 1/2, 6 1/2 and 9 in favour of the Magners League.
I agree that it isn’t broken, and I’m sure FIRA will do the conservative thing and keep the status quo as is. I’ll be more interested to see if the Super 10 teams remain invited to the Challenge Cup, or if only a few will and instaed more spots will be granted to Russian or Iberian clubs.
Pajovic said | December 22nd 2009 @ 8:44pm | Report comment
Nick, have you been to Thomond park for a game in the ML? Great Stuff and highly attended. Same goes for The RDS. Ravenhill is epic. I fear that a lot of the English fans have no idea what happens in the ML but still make their minds up about the ML with little or no material to base their opinions upon. Have they ever seen a game? Been to one? As far as I know Munster and Leinster draw in more cash than any GP side. Munster’s sponsorship deal with Toyota is worth 5M Euro over 3 years. I’m not really buying your ‘democratic’ shot arguement.
The average quality of a lot of the GP sides has been exposed yet again this year. Apart from a few teams with questionable numbers of Englishmen (which is super frustrating), they rest are not up to it. 7 teams is more than enough and I dont see why the French and English should feel hard done by? Do you hear the Boks moaning about the number of teams the Aussies have in the S14, soon to be S15? Nope. They get on with it and win games. Regardless of the representative disparity. Its about breeding competition. It shows how competitive the 6 nations is now when ‘le crunch’ is pretty much just another game. It hasn’t been the decider in years.
I agree with PotHole though, ratching up the ML a little on the HC front wouldnt be a bad idea. However, places should not be cut in favour of letting more mediocre English teams into the competition. if that’s gonna happen, why not just let them all in? Hopefully the addition of the Italians to the ML will sort the Italian problem re: hideously uncompetiive teams loaded with journeymen antipodians (Treviso excluded).
As for the Challenge Cup, I don’t know, I guess I am just somewhat predisposed against it. Many teams have a sort of ‘who cares’ type of attitude to it in many games and I dont think the number of teams currently in domestic European leagues merits such a competition. And if your team wins it, who really cares??? But on the other hand, it hands less competitive teams a chance to compete in Europe.
Pothale, whats your plan for a British Irish league, do tell!
Wavell Wakefield said | December 22nd 2009 @ 9:56pm | Report comment
Pajovic, how has ‘the average quality of a lot of the GP sides’ been exposed yet again this year? That’s a very debatable assertion. Of the 10 HC finals this decade there has been 7 English finalists (and 6 winners), France has had 8 finalists and Ireland the rest. The 08-09 HC saw 3 English teams make the knockout stages; the 07-08 HC saw 3 English teams make the knockout stages; 06-07 HC saw 4 English teams qualify; 05-06 3 teams; 04-05 3 teams etc. Does that not illustrate a dominance?
If we examine the current individual clubs then we can see that only two of the top 5 GP clubs are actually in the HC cup this year. Therefore, surely the poor performances of Bath and Gloucester, for example, indicate that the mediocrity of the GP has not been exposed given that both clubs are doing poorly in the GP, and both clubs will not qualify for the knockout stages of this years HC.
Conversely, the only pool that doesn’t contain an English club in the top two positions is Bath’s group. Does that not reflect a consistency as opposed to mediocricy being exposed AGAIN?
Also, what English and French clubs are moaning? I haven’t read anything in the media along those lines. And what do you mean that the SA Super sides just keep on winning and not moaning? I thought that Sarfu has long been pushing for extra places despite the fact that the SA Super sides had generally been woefully uncompetitive? I’m confused by what you’re suggesting about English and French underachievement?
pothale said | December 23rd 2009 @ 12:44am | Report comment
W2 – cos I’m too lazy to look it up, do you happen to know off-hand who the English and French finalists were over the decade? Has it been the same three or four teams like Leicester, Wasps, Gloucester, London Irish with Tigers and Wasps dominating?
I know Brive were in there early on but they’ve faded – Toulouse, Clermont, Biarritz and Stade are the regular contenders for France with Toulouse and Biarritz dominating?
Colin N said | December 22nd 2009 @ 11:08pm | Report comment
“Nick, have you been to Thomond park for a game in the ML? Great Stuff and highly attended. Same goes for The RDS. Ravenhill is epic. I fear that a lot of the English fans have no idea what happens in the ML but still make their minds up about the ML with little or no material to base their opinions upon. Have they ever seen a game? Been to one?”
I would actually say it’s the other way round, with Celtic fans not knowing their GP rugby. I watch a lot of Magners and however bad the Guinness Premiership has been this season (it’s improving slowly), it’s still not as poor as the Magners League.
pothale said | December 23rd 2009 @ 12:35am | Report comment
Spot on Colin. ML is getting viewed through the prism of Leinster, Munster and possibly Ulster. Even their games have not been good this season in comparison to their performances in H Cup. Welsh clubs have been dire. The Scottish sides have been the best perfomers in the ML so far – league position doesn’t lie.
Pothale said | December 22nd 2009 @ 11:16pm | Report comment
I don’t have any plans for a British Irish league, Pajo. There’s a British & Irish Cup up n running if you’re interested.
pothale said | December 22nd 2009 @ 2:19pm | Report comment
Don’t forget Pajo that there’s the Challenge Cup as well.
Besides look at what has happened in recent seasons in the Magners – teams have fallen off the pace with mainly the Irish teams dominating winning it. I suggested the top 6 would automatically qualify. Currently it’s 7, with Wlales invariably getting the 8th team spot in the playoffs with Italian sides.
What’s absent from the ML is any threat of relegation (or absence from competition) – similar to the S14 – a flaw in my view, albeit one could argue it was never set up on that basis. However, teams like Southern Kings and Queensland Reds continue to flounder in the nether regions of the comp, year in, year out.
If you tighten qualification for the H Cup a notich, and ratchet up the pressure, it makes the ML more competitive, and qualification more highly prized. Besides, the current standings in the ML has the two scottish teams first and second, followed by Leinster. Munster are in 7th spot. Admittedly that may change, but don’t forget Edinburgh finished second last year. And The Blues didn’t bother with the league last year – Dai Young made it quite clear what his priority was.
And if not winning the league in the future still means automatic qualification, then the ML teams are not sufficiently incentivised. Welsh rugby is heading for a major slump with the way things are going and it already showed itself in their match against Australia.
Resting players/fielding weaker teams in prep for H Cup becomes less of an option, and/or demands bigger squads.
This year sees the introduction of the trapdoor in the H Cup where the next best runners up in the Pools drop down into the Challenge Cup, so the teams still are in the hunt, since the winner of the Challenge Cup automatically qualifies for the next season of the H Cup. And if the same country wins both, there’s an extra spot for that country.
i don’t see the point of a team like Viadana continuing to qualify for the H Cup automatically under the current system. They are practically guaranteed 10 pointer for any teams in their pool. The Ospreys put over 90 points past them. It makes it too easy in that pool, and doesn’t help Viadana at all. Much better that they developed a) in the Magners (or the new franchise did) and b) in the Challenge Cup. Treviso – whilst much improved – might also fare better in the Challenge Cup, but it will be interesting to see how they do in the Magners – better than some people might think.
Having a more open two-tier European tournament with greater competition for places would be a good thing in my view.
Mind you, that’s only half the story. Next up is my grand plan to break the existing structures of the ML and the Premiership and create a Celtic and English league instead with 3 or 4 divisions – but maybe that needs a separate article.
King of the Gorganites said | December 22nd 2009 @ 12:55pm | Report comment
good post pothale. keep them coming. in australia it can be difficult to see coverage of the H cup. ESPN shows two games a round. this week one of the games was meant to be stade v Ulster. unforunately as the game as postponed all we got was a replay of the round 3 match. summaries like this are useful. cheers.
brad said | December 22nd 2009 @ 9:43pm | Report comment
Most of the lions came from the magners league this year so it can’t be that bad.
Wavell Wakefield said | December 22nd 2009 @ 10:01pm | Report comment
The ML has some fantastic players, brad, but one has to remember that the ML is geared toward HC and test rugby but despite this only Leinster and Munster have proved consistent competitors/winners.
Colin N said | December 22nd 2009 @ 11:11pm | Report comment
True, but the Magners League contains three of the four countries who qualify for the Lions. England would have to have around 20 representatives to outweigh the ML contingent..
Pothale said | December 22nd 2009 @ 11:48pm | Report comment
Has that not happened in the past?
Wavell Wakefield said | December 23rd 2009 @ 12:09am | Report comment
2005: 21 (not including call ups)
2001: 18 (not including call ups)
Wavell Wakefield said | December 23rd 2009 @ 12:18am | Report comment
1997: 18 (” ” ” “)
brad said | December 22nd 2009 @ 11:18pm | Report comment
Colin N. Excellent observation, I feel like an idiot now. We get the GP in south Africa and never the Magners league. We only get to see the ML teams through Heiniken cup and they are pretty strong. I guess we expect more form the English teams because they are the richest. French teams despite their foreign presence are amazingly inconsistent
Wavell Wakefield said | December 22nd 2009 @ 11:48pm | Report comment
Brad, as I said to Pajovic, only the Irish sides have been consistently strong in the HC, and by that I mean Leinster and Munster. The English and French teams are currently the regular achievers. That comment isn’t intended to demean the ML, but given that it is geared toward HC and test rugby the results from the Scottish and Welsh franchises/provinces have been very, very poor. The French have an unfortunate domestic schedule which means that only the richest and biggest clubs can compete in both tournaments, and contextually the French championship is hugely important to the average French rugby professional far more than the HC is.
Wavell Wakefield said | December 23rd 2009 @ 12:53am | Report comment
Pothale:
Winners:
France -Toulouse, Brive
England – Bath, Northampton Saints, Leicester Tigers, London Wasps
Ireland – Ulster, Munster, Leinster
Losing finalists:
Wales – Cardiff Blues
France: Brive, Colomiers, Stade Francais, USAP Perpignan, Toulouse, Biarritz
England: Leicester Tigers
Ireland: Munster
That there is a greater diversity of losing French finalists is perhaps a reflection of the financial context of French rugby (sugar daddies etc), the significance of the Brennus shield, and the unfortunate length of their season.