Comments on: A year of inconsistent rugby refereeing

By: ohtani's jacket

ohtani's jacket — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 08:15:46 +0000

The Wallabies haven’t outclassed the All Blacks since the Sydney Test in 2008, and even then it was a case of the All Blacks slipping up much like they did in Melbourne in 2007. You’ve just come off back-to-back hidings from the All Blacks and are further away from beating them over a three or four Test series than you were in 2008. Unfortunately, the players think the way you do, which is why they always give away stupid penalties. Pure frustration. The All Blacks copped the same from South African refs from ’98-02. Deal with it.

By: Ai Rui Sheng

Ai Rui Sheng — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 07:05:54 +0000

chief
Your comments are ill founded and emotionally immature. (Play the ball and not the man)
Kaplan is not a always a wonderful referee. When the Kiwis arrested half the Mossad, he penalised the All Blacks off the park. Hardly neutral.
Paddy O’Brien sent a Fijian off, instead of a Frenchman, and the French went on to win and then beat the All Blacks. Possible cost of RWC?
Paddy appointed an inexperienced and obviously partial referee in Cardiff and the French won. That the All Blacks had beaten everyone of note in the preceding months, it is possible to infer that he cost them another RWC.

By: Wavell Wakefield

Wavell Wakefield — Sun, 03 Jan 2010 20:27:49 +0000

‘he should have been more acquainted with the ELV’s at the time – and into the future’

What does this mean?

‘he should be able to ref the test taking the relevant culture in mind’

What does this mean?

By: MM

MM — Sun, 03 Jan 2010 20:16:46 +0000

Damo – I have been watching the comments to the article for a while now.

1] If the article held no bias – other countries would have been mentioned – but they were not in the context of your of your replies, neither the article and subsequent replies.

2] Yes, the Australians do go on and on… when in fact the rugby teams self, have done their bit and moved on with a great percentage of discipline.

Justifying never was a stamped and approved system…

Thus I tend to agree and support what Jerry is saying – his contributions are indeed very fair.

By: Jerry

Jerry — Sat, 02 Jan 2010 22:44:03 +0000

It’s not like it’s been a regular occurance. There’s been one time he spoke out about refereeing decisions and it was regarding a controversial match 5 days after the IRB announced it was going to be concentrating on cleaning up the very area that the controversy was surrounding.

By: Jerry

Jerry — Sat, 02 Jan 2010 22:26:42 +0000

It wasn’t a spear cause he dropped him rather than driving him down and also cause Smit landed on his back/arse rather than head/neck. It was a dangerous reckless tackle and deserved a yellow card.

By: MM

MM — Sat, 02 Jan 2010 00:49:39 +0000

Hey Jerry….

Mate – in fairness if that wasn’t a spearhead tackle – then I’d love to see the genuine thing….

Be it to my detriment, I try to look at the fair side – and so many can’t be wrong – or shouldn’t be.

Could you or somebody please enlighten me as to how John Smit’s fall had any impact on the game – and whether the unforeseen landing was in any way erroneous??

By: MM

MM — Sat, 02 Jan 2010 00:41:58 +0000

Chief – I agree with you. The ref should firstly be far removed from the players and the game – i.e. from as “neutral” a country as possible – and if it’s a northern hemisphere ref – he should have been more acquainted with the ELV’s at the time – and into the future – he should be able to ref the test taking the relevant culture in mind – not merely blowing that “thingy” called a whistle to such an extent where the game or test has 20 minutes odd outage of their game time. We’ve seen it how many times???

By: chief

chief — Fri, 01 Jan 2010 08:49:13 +0000

He has cost the AB’s two RWC’s? You’re off your head. You are completely deranged, and really need to fix up your arguments mate. They are all flawed, and they are all disgraceful.

First Bledislo- Joubert unfairly penalises Australia at the ruck and breakdown. Not to mention the scrum. Australia clearly outclasses the All Blacks.

Another Bledisloe match- Kaplan does a decent job at handling it despite his reluctance to sin bin both teams. Australia not neccessarily outclassed, just were not the full team. That is not a full 40 minute match.

Ai your comment is stupid, and utterly ridiculous. No one is getting apologies from Paddy O’Brien but NZ. Even though they won that match. Your a bit of a genius aren’t you. Gain a better understanding of the game skip.

By: Ai Rui Sheng

Ai Rui Sheng — Fri, 01 Jan 2010 06:25:18 +0000

So the Wannabe’s have lost so many games, (some say closely), this year because the refereeing is so bad. Could it be that poor refeeing has kept the Dingoes in games where they were clearly outcklassed, e.g. four Bloody Slow Cup matches???
Paddy favours his own country? He used to sing Advance Oz Fair E when he refereed. He has probably cost the AB’s two RWC’s so he needs a bit of balance I suppose.

By: hammer

hammer — Wed, 30 Dec 2009 05:20:33 +0000

Barnes may well have improved – he should do over time, all refs should continue to improve (massive emphasis on should) – that’s not the issue with most kiwis – the issue was that at time he was no way experienced enough or ready enough to control a W/cup quarter final – that was an IRB problem and one O’Brien should have owned up to – basically he f@#ked up a quarter final of the IRB’s showcase tournament ….

best reffing display of ’09 – I’d plum for Rolland in the NZ v France game – I don’t think Barnes is anywhere near that level yet … a level Dickinson could only dream of achieving

By: Jerry

Jerry — Wed, 30 Dec 2009 05:08:07 +0000

He landed on his bum – he didn’t see the ‘spear’ cause there wasn’t one. But it was pretty obvious that Thorn was reckless in how he dropped Smit, even if he didn’t drive down.

But seriously – I’m baffled how you can argue that Dickenson missed any part of that incident.

By: chief

chief — Wed, 30 Dec 2009 04:43:44 +0000

The ‘outcome’ in this instance was how he landed, maybe he should have yellow carded for what he saw, as an off the ball tackle. But he thought it could come across of too harsh, as he didn’t see it as a spear tackle. It is pretty easy to miss the spear element of a tackle you know.

By: Jerry

Jerry — Wed, 30 Dec 2009 04:37:02 +0000

What does that even mean? “He didn’t see the outcome?”

Why not? He was looking right at the whole thing. Start. Middle. End. All right in front of him. All in his line of sight. He doesn’t look away at any moment. And quite frankly, the outcome is the most innocuous part of the whole thing anyway – Smit doesn’t actually land that dangerously.

By: chief

chief — Wed, 30 Dec 2009 03:03:21 +0000

Once again Jerry he didn’t see the outcome of the tackle. Believe me, Stu Dickinson is probably the number 1 referee in the world who will make use of his cards whenever he deems appropriate.

AllBlackfan- I have to agree, referees should be appointed on merit, but their nationality could still play a significant part ie; Australia verse New Zealand you wouldn’w want Bryce Lawrence refereeing. But you would want Barnes or Kaplan doing so.

By: Jerry

Jerry — Wed, 30 Dec 2009 02:28:31 +0000

Barnes is pretty good (1/4 final aside, obviously) though he seems to really struggle to communicate with players.

As for the Dickenson incident, I dunno what you think you’re seeing. The whole thing was right in front of his face – there was no reason why he would have missed any of it. He bottled the decision then tried to hide behind not seeing it. If he didn’t see that then there’s something wrong with his eyes cause he was looking right at it.

By: chief

chief — Wed, 30 Dec 2009 01:45:42 +0000

Jerry he saw the tackle, but he didn’t see the landing point of the tackle.

I am not denying that he saw that, I personally think New Zealander’s need to really get over Wayne Barnes, and get used to seeing him for at least another 10 years. It wouldn’t surprise me if Wayne Barnes gets a senior gig in refereeing administration once he’s finished as well. Wayne Barnes actually truly knows his scrum laws, and the ruck is an actual competition when he’s refereeing. If you infringe under Barnes players will know they will not get away with it. Time to face it, Wayne Barnes is the best referee in the world at the moment, and either he, Steve Walsh (if bought back to IRB panel) , Jonathan Kaplan or Alain Rolland will all recieve Semi-Finals, 3rd and 4th play offs and the final.

It’s something you’ll have to get used to, because a lot of people will agree that he’s the best referee in the world.

By: Jerry

Jerry — Wed, 30 Dec 2009 01:21:59 +0000

That’s a load of crap, he saw the whole thing. Watch the replay http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZchPz1xQII , it happens 2 metres in front of his face and he’s looking straight at it the entire time.

By: allblackfan

allblackfan — Wed, 30 Dec 2009 00:58:14 +0000

The problem we’re seeing here is not that the refs are missing a lot of minor misdemeanours (which we can pick up at home thanks to slow mo replays).
The issue is that match officials (including refs) are missing major transgressions, or are being inconsistent with how they treat them.
Consider the recent Irish-Wallabies test: how does Palu get a yellow card for that tackle yet the Irish covering defence on Rocky Elsom as he scored gets away with a blatant shoulder charge?
Or that NZ-SA Test match which Dickinson controlled: Thorn gets banned for one game yet Bakkies Botha gets away with illegal thuggery on the field (I remember counting at least four incidents) which goes unnoticed by all officials. Granted, the weather was atrocious but at least one oof these incidents was breathtakingly blatant (a forehand smash to Nonu’s face 5m away from the breakdown).
As for Barnes … don’t get me started.
It’s time for refs to be appointed on merit (a la NRL) … you don’t perform, you get dropped to a lower level. And vice versia.

By: chief

chief — Wed, 30 Dec 2009 00:07:11 +0000

Steve Walsh admittedly bought it on himself. But he was still a damn good referee. And if it is true that Lyndon Bray is keeping one of the best officials out of the game, then he seriously needs to get over it and realise that the current bunch of officials are lacking Steve Walsh’s feel of the game. Steve Walsh had his chances, and he blew them. The NZRU maybe was right to sack him, but look at all the other players out their who have been sacked, they have been given more chances, and it certainly isn’t stopping them from moving forward which Walsh is trying to do.

Allblackfan- I believe Walsh will not be able to referee NZ games but will still be able to referee Australian games.

How a referee controls the game is how the game will be played. Dickinson indeed cannot make a game spectacular, but he can ensure that it is played with very much attacking flair. It used to be Dickinson whistling a lot but he has made drastic improvements to his performances of recent times. As for Dickinson not carding Thorn, he didn’t see the ‘spear’ result, he saw the lift after being provoked and then the tackle. It was an unusual style of tackle not the traditional ‘lift, twist, dump’ or the ‘lift, twist, drive.’

By: hammer

hammer — Tue, 29 Dec 2009 21:13:00 +0000

Neutral refs wow who would thought – it’s more a reference that poor old misunderstood Australia are actually found out by a number of different refs from either side of the globe

By: allblackfan

allblackfan — Tue, 29 Dec 2009 15:27:54 +0000

If Walsh is accredited with the ARU refs panel, there’s a good chance he could end up controlling the ABs in the 2011 RWC final (provided the ABs make it that far!)

By: ohtani's jacket

ohtani's jacket — Tue, 29 Dec 2009 15:16:04 +0000

I love how people bring up one good game Dickinson reffed as though Dickinson was the reason it was good. I also love how Steve Walsh is some kind of victim.

By: Dublin Dave

Dublin Dave — Tue, 29 Dec 2009 14:47:43 +0000

“NO one can deny that in Ireland Kaplan ruined the game and screwed Australia around”

I can.

By: Jerry

Jerry — Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:19:12 +0000

I’ve always thought Dickenson was a bloody awful referee. Whether it’s not carding Brad Thorn for his throw on Smit and claiming he “didn’t see it” when the replay showed it happened 2 metres in front of his face right in his line of sight or stuffing up the Hurricanes v Waratahs match in the S14 this year. His reffing in the Italy game was bad too, not just the scrums at the end.

By: chief

chief — Tue, 29 Dec 2009 09:12:07 +0000

I have to agree with Lindommer, I definitely think Dickinson is a top referee, and I would regard him one of the 5 best in the world. No not at all the best, but from this year we have seen Dickinson’s British and Irish Lions match which as I said earlier was one of the best International refereeing performances of the year, for O’Brien to drop him like that and ensure that Dickinson’s test match fixtures are becoming more and more limited, despite his performances increasing.

My top 5.

1. Barnes
2. Rolland
3. Walsh
4. Kaplan
5. Dickinson

Andre Watson would surely have to be the perfect replacement. One of the best rugby referees, and definitely one of the better rugby administrators going around. You can tell with the upcoming SA talent, all you have to do is watch the Currie Cup and see the likes of Jason Jaftha, and Stu Berry.

As for Steve Walsh it is Lyndon Bray actually keeping him off the main panel. I get the feeling Lyndon and Steve weren’t exactly best of friends when they refereeing together which occurred for so long. For Bray to be the current SANZAR referee panel manager is a joke. No one can doubt that Steve is a good referee, he was probably going to get the 2011 RWC final providing NZ were not in it. He is like Barnes, his games are always freed up and entertaining affairs.

I was reading Peter Marshall’s blog (http://bloggers.heavensgame.com/Main/?p=211) and it pretty much sums up the disarray which the ARU is going through. You get 20 something year old guys who are starting off in first grade and they have really no chance of moving forward.

By: Jerry

Jerry — Tue, 29 Dec 2009 08:05:29 +0000

How do you know there was little consultation re the tackled ball ruling? As far as it being ‘ill thought out’ it was merely putting in writing what was effectively being ruled already.

By: Lindommer

Lindommer — Tue, 29 Dec 2009 07:34:40 +0000

“…you reckon have been robbed by so many different refs of various nationalities robs your statement of legitamacy”. In case you’ve missed it, H, Australia ALWAYS gets “different refs of various nationalities”. It’s called neutral referees.

I’m not an apologist for Dickinson, in fact I don’t enjoy most games he reefs as I feel he’s overly officious. But I find it difficult to criticise him as he doesn’t miss much.

Hammer, Barnes is a Pom. And Watson’s a Saffer. I’m neither, I’m an Aussie if you’d like to know. Do try and keep up.

PS. Steve Walsh is a very, very good referee.

By: hammer

hammer — Tue, 29 Dec 2009 06:11:37 +0000

funny it could easily be said the fact you are of the same nationality as the man you’re defending and the team you reckon have been robbed by so many different refs of various nationalities robs your statement of legitamacy

By: Lindommer

Lindommer — Tue, 29 Dec 2009 05:46:20 +0000

Funnily enough I’m with you here, B35P. Dickinson started off at the same referee association I belong to in Sydney, he occasionally attends meetings and carries on in his typical lecturing fashion. His style has always been to browbeat, not to engage others in a dialogue. Those who’ve read my posts here (and elsewhere) would know I reckon Dickinson is an overly prescriptive referee who, I think, shows off his encyclopaedic knowledge of the Laws. Simply put, I think he whistles too much. And yet, while we’ve all been roundly criticising refs for mistakes which affect our team, Stuart makes very few howlers and/or errors. That includes the ABs game in Milan where I think they were bloody lucky not to see a forward, or two, carded. In my opinion O’Brien was manifestly incorrect in his summary of Dickinson’s performance. The fact he’s of the same nationality as those complaining robs his statement in this instant of any legitimacy.

The performances which have pissed me off for their sheer incompetence the last few years have been those against the Wallabies whistled by Lewis, Kaplan, Bryce Lawrence and Joubert. There’ve probably been equally poor performances by other referees but as they weren’t against the Wallabies I didn’t see them. Barnes seems to have a very good feel for the game as most games he refs are invariably good to watch. Wayne Erickson had, and Steve Walsh also has, this ability to ref a game which is mostly good to watch while missing very little that’s important.

O’Brien’s immediate future at the iRB is somewhat problematical. His ruling re the tackler holding on to the ball was poorly tought out, and, it would seem, without much consultation. And Dickinson’s exclusion from the 6 Nations refs’ panel is tantamount to petty foot-stamping; his overly prescriptive style is EXACTLY what the NH scribes have been callling for and what their rugby public seem to like. I sincerely hope the iRB are putting plans in motion to find O’Brien’s replacement. Andre Watson seems to be doing a good job with the junior Saffer referees, maybe he’s the man for the job.

PS. The fact Paddy’s a Kiwi doesn’t affect my opinion of him one way or the other. Apart from his comments on NZ rugby, that is.