To think that your sport deserves ownership of the term ‘football’ and especially the term ‘Australian football’ is very selfish. The same as Union fans who think League should not be called Rugby. And I do not think Australian Rules Football should also be called ‘Australian football’ and no other sport should. All four football codes are football, all are played in Australia, all are Australian Football.

And I think Melbourne should play Sydney in a game of original football, with teams of 3 million each.

Dan,
that is wrong AFL was formed in 1997 as a national body which the South Australian Aussie Rules body are still yet to join as a fully fledged member so technically they can change their rules to suit the South Australian Aussie Rules game in their state and so left the door open for themselves just for that reason… That’s after repeated requests by Andrew Demetriou AFL CEO to fall into line with the AFL brand … and its constitution… SA Aussie rules still remain a separate corporate identity…

The English FA was properly codified in 1862 as the national body for the country as you can see the English FA is much older and technically more codified then the AFL that is a fact… btw the English Sheffield football club was formed in 1857 two years before the Melbourne Aussie Rules club which would be the English Sheffield football club or Melbourne Aussie Rules club equivalent..

“I’m just going to ignore the trolling about calling the game “Australian Football” (I think we both know you’re just trying to get up the noses of the AFL fans).”

Wrong again Dan––I have always considered Football in Australian as being “Australian Football” not English Football etc… Along with long time commentators of the Australian game Les Murray, the late Johnny Warren, Craig Foster, all of the SBS TWG crew, the Fox Football team Simon Hill, Robbie Slatter, Andy Harper and the FOX FC team… Many More I have not mentioned who write for the Fairfax organisation and those who professionally write here on the ROAR Forum, Jessie, Mike and Tony, so I am not alone in this “Australian Football” analogy, all of whom, I have mentioned have written so in their columns or have commented as such during their TV programming…

Now pay attention Dan, as you even fail to grasp what you write because you are so consumed with anti-football hatred (Like the Beast an appropriate name for him when he is not tuned into the Simpsons)… Now again Dan, I accuse you of being an Anti-Football zealot trying to keep real Football from identifying itself as Australian Football or Football just because you have grown up in an AFL or Rugby demographic––not that I believe you are a Rugby man because what is so strange about you is that, John O’Neil the Australian RU CEO is quite clear and happy with the new branding of Australian Football (FFA) in Australia, but for some obscure reason you are not happy with this… So I conclude and suspect you are an AFL zealot, who is intent to force your will upon me… Not me trying to force my will upon you as you keep suggesting…

As proof to that fact, here we are having this nonsensical conversation on a ROAR Football blog about me wanting to use the name Football not Soccer, as my proof in your opening address to me with “Ugh”… No my moniker is not “Ugh” I have repeatedly told you my new moniker part of my new years resolution in honour of our lads who are on their way to the 2010 Football World Cup in South Africa… So I honour our boys with my new moniker Australian Football or AF for short if you so desire…

“As primarily a Rugby League and Union fan I have to say that while the term “football” is confusing, referring to Soccer in Australia as “Australian Football” is just trying to be misleading… If anything you should call it “English Football”, as that’s where it originated. We don’t refer to the low level American Football comps in Germany as “German Football”, so why call soccer in Australia “Australian Football”? That’s just being silly.”

Sorry Dan I should have addressed this parra of yours first… That’s just a polite way of saying I should revert to calling my code Soccer… No denying it Dan––or twisting your words around, it still means the same thing, you are calling upon me to not be silly and support your anti-football zealous belief and have called upon me again to call it Soccer not Australian football or Football… One goes with the other as I am an Australian permanently living in Australia, Queensland so Dan that is ridiculous in your words you are happy for me to call my code Football but draw the line with Australian Football… Don’t you realise that is a contradiction in terms of football ideology…

“Football” is a word that ORIGINALLY referred to all team games “PLAYED ON FOOT” as opposed to “ON HORSEBACK”. Therefore, claims that Association Football was first and that they have a sole right to it are ILLEGITIMATE. They simply have “A” right to it, much like American Football has “A” right to it. Clear?

Dan, I have heard of that posturing and rationale before when you may have been in nappies, it was commonly used all of the time with these stupid debates like this one and I always laugh at its incredible stupid logic for even suggesting that all team games played under foot are football, how terribly insecure that statement is and still no mention of the hands in your argument with the ball moving along the line from the half back to the wing… lol

Please Dan you’re wasting your time and mine with that old fashion brain-washing statement that even the IRUB have let go of… Get up to speed Dan… For instance basketball is a team game played under foot with the hands and two baskets representing goals and the game was an American invention played on a rectangle court inspired from the real football code… But everyone had the good sense not to call it indoor Football, Soccer or Futsal… It has a product name, which they are proud of… wait for it … it’s called Basketball.

Also Dan, I was like you once believing that Rugger sorry Rugby, was the older game of Football being invented before the English London Schools of Football Harrow, Eton Cambridge etc but since I’ve started my research I found that the London dribbling the ball codes with the feet date as far back as the 16th century and recently they found a Harrow school football in an attic of an old Scottish Castle, yes a 16th century a Harrow Football that, the University of Edinburgh had confirm being carbon dated of that period… So suddenly, after being brainwashed to believe what you believe has suddenly all changed for me…

(Don’t worry Dan as you say Football will be continued to be misunderstood to belong to all of the running on foot codes as you say) … For now.

However, for me a lot has changed and I am now of the belief that my football is the true owner of the name Football that was hijacked by the other codes without the proper consent or permission… AFL and eventually all will be forced to concede as the FIFA Football World Cups eventually becomes the only football currency of the World and that will eventually include Gridiron as the Americans grow to love the game Soccer with now 50m registered soccer players who will in the end demand the name change its corporate name from Soccer to eventually Football when they have an EPL equivalent and a dominant National Football Team that will out play Brazil at FIFA world cups..

You know the Americans Dan, once they get a sniff of success in the world’s most popular Football code they will want to dominate it even own it and call it their own invention… Dan, it’s inevitable it will happen they get impressive numbers now for their MLS club games. and still growing with a lot of traction withe its fantastic run in the SA Confederation’s cup that was totally unexpected. Just look what the Football world cup has done in New Zealand with their qualification.

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AF

I most emphatically DO NOT want people to start calling association football soccer just because I do. I’m not, like you, ignorant enough to think my personal preference for a small fraction of the English language could be uniformly enforced on the rest of the English speaking world. I do not go to England, for example, and go around telling everyone “it’s call soccer mate”, the way Englishmen will routinely do in Australia with the reverse demand. Language is too localized and complex for such ignorant assumptions.
My point is simply this: Like it or not soccer is a legitimate part of the English language and it is not short for the word “association”, it is short for “association rules football” the way “rugger” was once short for “Rugby rules football” (this is going back a bit). The simple fact that you find it offensive because you’re an aging soccer fan with a persecution complex does not change the reality that it is a commonly used word (heck, there’s even a major international magazine called “soccer world”). It is not a “slave” term (honestly “slave”?), nor is it a derogatory term. It is a term that gained popularity in Great Britain before either Rugby Football or Association Football (remember that Rugby had not decided to “drop” the football tag 150 years ago) had become predominant. Thus the term rose to utility in other places where there were MORE THAN ONE TYPE OF POPULAR FOOTBALL. I want you to remember that – AND THIS IS IMPORTANT SO READ IT – “Football” is a word that ORIGINALLY referred to all team games “PLAYED ON FOOT” as opposed to “ON HORSEBACK”. Therefore, claims that Association Football was first and that they have a sole right to it are ILLEGITIMATE. They simply have “A” right to it, much like American Football has “A” right to it. Clear?

You have charged me with claiming that I think AFL has the sole right to use the word football. You’re either being stupid or just plain dishonest so you have a point to argue. Again, the AFL most certainly has NO RIGHT to claim exclusive use of the word. But then neither does Association Football. It’s that I claim the latter that seems to upset you so much and maybe in your rage you form your own realities about what I’m actually saying.

Next important point:

You state that you don’t see the word football as “generic” anymore. So bloody what if you don’t? I don’t see god’s existence to be anymore probable than the existence of a KFC on Mars, but I don’t go around trying to burn down churches. The fact is the word football existed LONG before Association Football ever came into existence. You’re belief that it’s not specific and belongs to association football, is just that – a belief, and one with no grounding in history or reality.
I don’t see the word football as specific in the Australian context and neither do a lot of people. It can be specific at an A-League match, but it is equally specific at an NRL, NFL or AFL match. The point is context; which makes it subjective here. By stating that you don’t see the word as subjective, YOU are insisting that everyone else stop using the word soccer. It’s you who is the linguistic nazi here, not me.

Nevertheless, you’ve banged on and on about me “insisting” that you call your game soccer instead of football, so here’s a challenge for you: go and find one sentence where I say that ANY association football fan ought to call it soccer. I’ll give you a hint: THERE ARE NONE. What you’ve irritating failed to understand is that I’m not speaking for soccer fans, they call the game football and I’m fine with that, I’m simply explaining that I know the game as soccer and know Rugby League as Footy. I prefer Rugby League and Rugby Union to soccer, and I relate with a lot of league fans who know League as “Footy”. Why is it that I should have to alter my use of English because you are so utterly emotional and irrational as to feel “soccer” is a “slave name”?

As for the argument about “Australian Football”… well I honestly can’t help you here. Calling it Football makes sense if you’re an association football fan, but calling it “Australian Football” outside of very specific contexts (eg: “the quality of the Australian Football competition hasn’t produced many premier league stars”) makes it sound like you’re speaking about an originally Australian sport. Call it that if you like, but don’t be surprised if you confuse more than a couple of people not intimate with your odd little fascist linguistic tendencies.

Moving on.
I also never said old people like you are stopping young Australians from using the term soccer (where on earth did you get that idea?!? How old are you exactly?). I am a member of “today’s youth” and I’ve always known the sport as soccer. Again, explain to me why your feelings on this issue are supposed to dictate how the rest of us use our language?
Lastly, if you’re wondering why I’ve been debating you so insistently, its because of statements like this: “… the moral and rightful name football for Real football on their forums…”
It’s precisely your assumption that soccer has a “moral” superiority that entitles it to be known by all as “football” that I’m debating.
Again, if we’re speaking of the English speaking world here, then why do you consistently ignore the North Americans who make up the majority? Why is their linguistic preference less relevant than those of the UK? You’re just as ridiculous as the AFL nuts who re-titled their section “Real Footy” after the SMH changed the soccer section to “Football” (notice that it doesn’t read “Australian Football” however). You both assume some sort of ownership of the word. You keep assuming I’m an AFL fan, but the truth is there’s no need for me to pretend to be anything because my point still stands regardless of what my preference is. It’s merely a reflection of your own glaring insecurities that you need to imagine me as an AFL fan to feel ok about this (I debate with expat poms and they hate me more for being a rugby fan – remember it’s a class thing over there – but they don’t dwell on it).

Language does not “morally” belong to you or any sport. It’s you who’s the zealot, not me.
Once you can explain to me why anyone who knows the game as soccer and has grown up with different sports being known as “football” or “footy” should suddenly drop the word, and consequentially come up with new names for their other sports to accommodate your game (which they’ve less interest in), then I’ll stop debating. But all you’ve come up with so far is that it’s a “slave” name… which is garbage.

I’m inclined to say you want everyone to call soccer exclusively football, and pretty much every other code can f%#@ off. Of course you won’t openly admit that, so I’m only speculating, but I can tell by the way you argue [inaccurately] so vigorously about history and etymologies that in your mind there is only one real ‘football’ and it gets you pretty angry that other sports have the audacity to call themselves ‘football’.

That whole garbage about football being a product and not a generic term, shows a fundamental ignorance in regards to the evolution of the English language.

Not to mention Dan has repeatedly indicated he has no problem with soccer fans referring to association football as ‘football’.

I mean really, do you look at what you type? Refusing the “moral and rightful name football for Real Football”, seriously do you not see how fanatical that is? Moral?! Let me quote that once again: “moral”?! You sound exactly like a preacher, you really do. Sort of like the whole Protestant vs. Catholic thing and who was ‘Real Christian’.

PS. Your analogy about the ‘Breast Feeding Association’ is just…bizarre.

PPS. “Moral”…lol

As far as the Football history is concern you are the one that is ignorant forgetting that AFL does not have an exclusive right to the name Australian Football in Australia, if it’s only by logic… Do they own the term football..? Is it the only code played in Australia..? No of course not… Football (name) was an English invention not an Australian indigenous invention or am I mistaken about that too…? Can you prove to me that Tom Wills was the first to invent the name Football and it was the English round ball enthusiasts that stole the name from him…? No of course they didn’t…

The problem is Dan, you see the term Football as generic I don’t anymore, I see it as a product name belonging to the men who first coined the name and are the ones who morally own the right to the use of the name football exclusively (of course in reality that won’t happen)… But it is sheer arrogance that people like you who play other codes insist we use the term soccer and not football on sport forums or in any media you choose to name…

If the term Australian Football is confusing to you then adopt the “Aussie Rules Football” tag or tailor your name to suit your meaning, I will continue on my path thank you…

You could not be more ignorant to suggest that old Football folk like me are the ones stopping the young Australians from the use of the term Soccer; hah, you can’t possibly be serious because you would be a fool to think so… You are totally wrong if you do––if you are suggesting the Footballing youth today are comfortable with the term Soccer they are definitely not…

You are of course an AFL advocate (sorry that’s what you are don’t pretend you are a Rugby person) who is totally ignorant that the young Footballing generation of Australia are not the ones rebelling to the continued use of the term Soccer by the Murdoch media empire protecting their AFL and NRL interests by refusing the moral and rightful name football for Real football on their forums…

Lastly and most importantly Dan, I did not personally have anything to do with the name change from Soccer to Football in Australia it was John O’Neill Rugby CEO who had over seen the corporate name change for the FFA (Football Federation Australia) and for good reason to stop people like you denigrating the code by suppressing it in the media with phrases like Football (AFL) vs. Soccer… I totally agree with his strategy if old AFL agitators like you don’t…

Did you buy today’s SMH by any chance? Now there’s a progressive media outlet proudly displaying Football in their sport pages…

Thank you for your concern about my mental health but you are the one stalking me here on this thread tell me to revert to Soccer not me stalking you to call my code football so stop the pretence and it may be you that has the problem not me… btw my moniker is Australian Football (AF) it is no longer KB, please in future use my new moniker when addressing me––– if you have a problem with that then don’t reply…

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AF

¬At no point was I ever expecting or insisting that you to call Association Football “soccer”. This is simply something you have imagined possibly due to the fact that you are (by your own admission) a very old and long suffering Association Football fan in this country, a fact that has probably contributed to you assuming I must be an Australian Rules Football fan for defending the heterogeneous use of the term “football”. I never once said that any one code had a particular right to the term “football”, all I did was 1. explain that you were ignorant of the historical meaning of the word (but only after you left yourself open to it by hopping on your high horse), 2. illustrate that the word soccer, though irrationally regarded as offensive by some English people and yourself, is indeed an English word that actually is the dominant name for the game of Association Football in the English speaking world (and when it comes to “the rest of the world” in a debate about the use of a portion of the English language, surely the fact that the majority of the English speaking world actually use the name soccer for Association football would be of some significance to you), and 3. that you could not reasonably expect people in Australia to not be confused by calling soccer “Australian Football” any more than you would expect an American to assume you meant soccer when referring to “American Football”. I get it, you don’t like the AFL or its fans.

I imagine it is related to the fact that you are (by your own admission) a very old and long suffering soccer fan in this country (so charmingly illustrated by the “tsunami” argument that only soccer fans of the baby boom generation are so famous for – young association football fans don’t carry on with that rubbish).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4I3-w9589E

I have found this video link above showing how the game was played in the late 16th century keeping the old London Harrow school football traditions alive… You will find this contemporary video fascinating with its use of a round football as big and as a medicine ball, and no doubt as heavy when wet… So in short if the game that is played with the feet, dribbling the ball with the feet and looks like football, it sure is likely to be called football… Rugby is the code expertly controlling the ball with the hands and now the term Rugby is as important as the name Football.

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AF

We have now hundreds of internet sites using the name Football and the Sydney Morning Herald have weighed in with the Football tag on their sporting pages… So I suggest you take a good hard look next time you buy a copy of the SMH—go to the sport section and tell me what you read…

I haven’t told you to call my code Football you are try to tell me to stop calling my code “Australian football” and revert to calling it Soccer, simply because you can’t stand the thought of Soccer in this county changing its corporate name from old “Soccer Australia” to the new name “Football Federation Australia” FFA… Well get use to it Dan, it is here; a growing tsunami that, will wash the Australian sporting landscape clean of the name soccer eventually, within 20yrs, because of our continued success in FIFA Football World Cups…

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AF

Then they wil be able to get on doing what they do best . . . without being hindered by questions about human rights, global pollution etc. – as they have a Tuckerman Global Citizen Award.

On the same token, South Africa is now a global citizen and Australia is not, despite the fact that until recently the South African government was one of the reasons for Mugabe staying in power. Not to mention the pathetic response to the AIDS epidemic. Im sure there would be a few more interesting areas to delve into.

Australia is as good as a global citizen as it can ever be, and hosting the FIFA world cup, while it will be an excellent thing if we get it, it will not make us anymore of a global citizen than we already are. Mike I normally enjoy reading your articles, but I have to say, this is well below your usual standard.

Jimbo the AFL have allready said “have the MCG” so it will be part of the bid.

Probably a bit cheeky throwing you all in with Pip though, he has dropped a few more doozies soon after.

For that alone, the WC bid deserves to be torpedoed by the AFL.

It amazes me that so many on soccer forums honeslty think the AFL is incapable of doing precisely that.

I wouldn’t count on it happening in the near future. Official names aside, a lot of people who like soccer (and believe it or not I know a fair few) actually rather like the name “socceroos” because they consider it part of the team’s heritage. I think that maybe its just old soccer nuts like you that hate the term because you’re from an era where you felt it stigmatised the sport (though the name never had anything to do with it I’d say), whereas people of my generation don’t really care that much… we watch what we like. I call it soccer, some of my friends call it football (though I’ve never any of them call it “Australian Football”) and we all get along fine not telling each other how to use our language.

Redb

p.s. any chance the waves were bigger in the rivers around Byron?

Calling me an AFL fan doesn’t deflect from the fact that you haven’t managed to address my points. Again, I haven’t told you that I want you to call the association football “soccer”, I’ve simply illustrated that the latter term remains one of significant utility in much of the English speaking world and you’re therefore in no position to tell us no to use it (particularly considering North America makes up much more of the “English speaking World” than the UK and New Zealand – and in NZ nobody has any issues with calling the game soccer anyway).

If you honestly can’t understand why calling Association Football in Australia “Australian Football” would be confusing, then I’d suggest you’re living in some kind of fantasy land…

Wow where to start. Fairly presumptuous to tell an entire country how to name their favourite sport and how to express their language. One thing you don’t seem to understand… is that language is constantly evolving and is FLEXIBLE. That is why we have British English & American English. No one ‘owns’ the word ‘football’, just as no one ‘owns’ the English language.

Rugby & American Football have kicking aspects in their game, I see no problem with these sports calling themselves ‘football’.

I don’t subscribe to this nonsense peddled around (by code warriors of all persuasions) that one code is the real football. The term ‘football’ is in the eye of the beholder.

What I don’t understand is, you appear to think that football codes involving the disposal/possession by hand are somehow disqualified from the name ‘football’. Never mind throw ins, goal keepers, Hand of God & T.Henry goals. The removal of carrying the ball came after the formation of the FA, not before (October 1863). Clearly the semi-prohibition of hand use is not sacrosanct, nor intrinsic to soccer.

In your eyes, when soccer decided to drop use of hands (to an extent) suddenly Rugby is no longer football.

http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Laws:of:Football.html
Here is a couple of nuggets I’ve dug up in researching the origins of soccer (which will also prove how ignorant you are of the history of your own sport):

“8. If a player makes a fair catch, he shall be entitled to a free kick, provided he claims it by making a mark with his heel at once; and in order to take such a kick he may go back as far as he pleases, and no player on the opposite side shall advance beyond his mark until he has kicked.”

“13. A player shall be allowed to throw the ball or pass it to another if he made a fair catch or catches the ball on the first bounce.”

“4. A goal shall be won when the ball passes between the goal-posts or over the space between the goal-posts (at whatever height)…[no crossbar].”

One additional commentary I’ll add about throw ins. I don’t know when this rule was introduced, but it wasn’t apart of the original thirteen laws. So somewhere along the line in the history of soccer, an additional rule allowing hand disposal has been added.

You claim association football is the ‘football’ because of the semi-exclusive use of feet, well it seems Association Football’s founders had different designs from yourself.

The smarter thing to do is be aware of the AFL … its limitations and its strength … accept football past management practices… With a clear head simply move forward one step at a time… consider 2004 and compare to 2009… two new teams coming in… more likely four… training academies being built… FA cup format being developed… a junior development program to keep footballs best…

Fox already have offered a new 5 year 300 million deal two replace the remaing four year 68 million dollar deal… but they want options the FFA are not prepared to give … but this if nothing else shows how far we have come … remember the RL deals ends in 3 years and is only 80 million with 16 teams…

The issue of Melbourne in the WC is past now … the Dome is rightfully AFL’s .. the MCG has been provided .. many thanks must go to the AFL for this… now the Vic gov get decide if it wants to invest coin in the development of Swan street for not only football but RU as well…

But and it is a big BUT its is over the more it is talked about only adds to how stuipid the whole thing is… it is now in the hands of the Vic gov / nay the vic people to make up their mind if they want a second stadium in the WC… I think they will but if they don’t it won’t make any difference to the bid…

I dont see you pulling up Jimbo with his ‘blabbing’.

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AF

Dan,
you are an AFL supporter enough of this tripe that you are a Rugby supporter…

Dan, that is a ridiculous statement of yours above; we play Football, we live in Australia, what do you expect us devoted Football supporters to call it…? Greek Football, Italian Football not English Football you have tried that one…

Now why don’t you call on your AFL administrators to call your game “Australian Rules Football” as a compromise…?

As far as the English speaking countries are concern we have England, Scotland, Wales, Nth Ireland, and now New Zealand and Australia calling Football … Football.

~~~~~~
AF

About the no offers to share the MCG or Etihad? Or Rundle Mall being in Brisbane?

“will crush any anti-football protagonists who are trying to stop the biggest sporting event on earth…”

I don’t know why but this sentence kind of reminded me of that Simpsons episode which parodies the founding fathers signing their their declaration of independence:

Owner: Please, sir! You’re destroying my establishment!
Man: We just created the greatest democracy on earth, you low-life commoner! [kicks him]

Ah man that is fairly hilarious. Where can I find such images?