Screw the ARU, let’s start our own comp
Roar Guru By rugbyfuture, 5 Jan 2010 rugbyfuture is a Roar Guru
If the ARU doesn’t do something soon, there will be no turning back and we could suffer the same path that rugby took in post- war Germany. Rebuilding is much harder than renovating. So what can we do?
Spain have set up the Superiberica de Rugby (Iberian Super Rugby) independent from the Spanish Rugby Federation. The first competition was seen as a success and the Portuguese Rugby Federation are said to be setting up four teams to join in, with two other teams – one from Gibraltar and the other from Andorra – set to join in the future, too.
This competition was set up by enthusiastic investors, including the Real Madrid Football Club, rather than the Spanish Rugby Federation.
The question raised here is whether the same enthusiasm with large scale capital investors can be emulated in Australia, even with the close competition from the NRL, AFL and A-League.
The Gold Coast and Western Sydney rugby enthusiasts seem to point to such enthusiasm, with their bids for the fifteenth Super Rugby team.
Indeed, The Roar can help point the way towards Australian Rugby enlightenment, with the enthusiasm put behind a grassroots Rugby Australia, built from a single article.
One of the major flaws in the ARU is the money needed to establish and contain a competition until it can be independently viable. Many have also pointed out that private equity is the only way to go (although there seems to be fault with this when co-operating with the ARU).
Of course, this sort of drastic action can only be applied if the ARU fail to react to what the rugby community have been yearning for.
If, indeed, this were to happen, the competition could easily be re-admitted into the ARU playing and development structure.
It is the dream of the people to have this competition, so why shouldn’t the community act on this. With proper lobbying and administration, rugby in Australia could have hopes of retaining, in the first instance, players who were juniors in rugby but have since gone on to rugby league.
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January 6th 2010 @ 7:27am
Patstick said | January 6th 2010 @ 7:27am | Report comment
This topic has been debated repeatedly, but I am always confused on one point, why does a new competition require 8 or more teams to start? Why not use the current professional set ups to grow a national competition? What I mean is if we only have 5 Super Rugby teams why not start with 5 teams in a national comp. The Super Rugby players not selected for Wallaby duties would form the base for new teams, with academy players filling the open spots. NSW would become Sydney, QLD becomes Brisbane, ACT – Canberra, WA – Perth and VIC – Melbourne. Everyone plays each other home and away with semi finals and finals. Thats a 11 week competition that keeps our professional players in an elite program, while offering the chance for younger player to prove their mettle against quality weekly competition. It also reduces the cost of player payments, a major hurdle in any national comp and most of the administration costs. The only problem with this is it only provides for two games per week, not overly attractive to potential sponsors. But when this proves to be successful you can then look to expand to Western Sydney, giving you three games a week. Future expansion would then be second Brisbane team (North or South Brisbane) and a third Sydney team (North Sydney). Lets get the foundations right before we look at expanding straight away, and when we do expand do it in the rugby strongholds before venturing outside.
January 6th 2010 @ 9:43am
Sam said | January 6th 2010 @ 9:43am | Report comment
In my opinion there are two major weaknesses of only having the 5 exisiting teams. 1. that you will hardly introduce any new players into semi-pro / pro rugby. So you are not going to increase depth, which is a major reason people cite for a new comp. 2. The competition may become a bit stale, without teams distinct from their Super 14 brothers, people might view the comp as just a bunch of end-of-year Super rugby friendlies devoid of the best players.
January 7th 2010 @ 10:30pm
rugbyfuture said | January 7th 2010 @ 10:30pm | Report comment
the idea for a third comp though is to provide a way of exposure for new up and coming players, creating a comp which is basically a junior tahs v junior reds etc would simply make it a curtain raiser and nothing more. also, the Unions heading the provincial teams would not want to violate their brands as these could later serve as rep team brands. Costs were discussed in looking at a fully privately funded comp and the fact that there was so much support for a puch in the super 15 for a western sydney, sunshine coast and gold coast team, plus you have the failed alternative melbourne bids which if properly structured would all most likely be excited at starting in something which could lead to a huge oppurtinity in rugby development.
January 10th 2010 @ 7:34pm
sharminator said | January 10th 2010 @ 7:34pm | Report comment
Im still confused .. who are all these up and coming players that dont get an opportunity today?
Basically, today, if you are any good at rugby you move to sydney .. play in the Sydney or Brisbane or Canberra club comp … and if you play well … you can get a development contract or full contract.
With the new Vic Super 15 there will be 150 contracted players at the highest leve in Australia … I dont think there is any need for another competition or level or rugby … 1 aussie team … 5 super 12 teams … 20 or so top level club sides … you dont need anymore.
Anyway, under the current (old) super 14 structure … there might be an idea for a new comp as all the non wallabies are theoretically free from May, and go back to clubs, but the iidea is now for a seamless Super 15 season … going from Feb to July .. then tests afterwards … so you would have to take the top 150 players out of any alternative new competition.
That dosnt leave many top level players to actually play in a new comp.
Cant see any justification for a new comp … or any benefits from it ..
January 6th 2010 @ 2:10pm
Patstick said | January 6th 2010 @ 2:10pm | Report comment
Sam that’s fair enough about not introducing new players, but i would say that to get the new competition off the ground you need to use what’s available first and start small. We all seem to agree that a new competition will incur many costs. To eliminate as many of these costs as possible is the secret to running a new comp. By using existing player base plus some academy players we save on player payments. By using the existing administration and coaches, more saved in salary payments. I would also package all the teams together for potential sponsors. All teams have the same shirt, sleeve, short, even across the back of the shoulders, similar to what Ford have with the NZ Super Rugby teams. This way we are not looking for 21 sponsors, only 5 (including a naming right sponsor). Throw in a broadcast deal, One Sports Channel perhaps, to play 2 games back to back on a Friday night and you can guarantee potential sponsors national coverage for 3 – 4 hours for 10 weeks straight, that will bring in enough money to cover most if not all the costs associated with a national comp.
January 7th 2010 @ 10:32pm
rugbyfuture said | January 7th 2010 @ 10:32pm | Report comment
i do agree on the united sponsor thing, there would be a high amount of research put into the fairness of it all though.
January 7th 2010 @ 10:03am
karlos said | January 7th 2010 @ 10:03am | Report comment
Rugby League did that 101 years ago. About time you lot started standing up for yourself.
January 7th 2010 @ 10:17am
Sam said | January 7th 2010 @ 10:17am | Report comment
I don’t think anyone is proposing a rebel league – that is, one which is in competition with the Super 14/Tri-Nations etc – but simply one established without the ARU in the driving seat.
January 7th 2010 @ 10:33pm
rugbyfuture said | January 7th 2010 @ 10:33pm | Report comment
actually, this would be applying the same rules as put forth by the governing body, unlike certain bastard sports. it would be more like the super league wars, without the competition from the governing body, and with an aim at integrating back into the development structure of the governing body’s system.
January 7th 2010 @ 1:38pm
simon said | January 7th 2010 @ 1:38pm | Report comment
Westy is right about AUS being behind SAF and NZ in term of developing the skills of players between school and Super Rugby. However, the gap is not widening, but will actually close a little with the Super Rugby expansion. This is not because AUS will improve its third tier (although it may), but because the third tier in NZ and SAF will become less significant in the season (although not necessarily in the hearts of the general public). Super Rugby and the test season will be back to back, and there will no longer be a clear uninterrupted window of exposure for the NPC or CC.
This is not to say that AUS should not be trying to better develop players between school and SR – it should! But the purpose for doing this should be made clear.
It is pointless investing hope in a third tier to capture the hearts of the AUS public in the current climate. Without the Wallabies (and even AUS A players), it won’t even be the best AUS can offer. Sheek’s suggestion is probably the only logical possibility, although it suffers from being severely unrealistic (as I’m sure he would agree deep down. I must say however, I also like to dream about other “possibilities” as well, so I enjoyed his post).
The real purpose (from an AUS perspective) needs to be for developmental reasons. Surely the solution with the least resistance is to simply have the academy teams play as curtain raisers to the Super 15. This would mean someone like Beale would play a few seasons with the NSW Academy team, developing his skills against academy teams from NZ and SAF before stepping up. This would close the developmental gap even further, but allow the professional contracts with Super teams to remain a big incentive. The only difference with this scenario compared to now is that players are getting game-time, instead of being warehoused.
Then who cares what happens after S15 during the test season. Just let the non-test Super players go back to their clubs, with increasing emphasis on Force players going back to WA clubs, and Brumbies players going back to ACT clubs, and “Rebel” players going back to Vic clubs even – to help develop the grassroots there as happens in NSW and Qld.
January 7th 2010 @ 10:40pm
rugbyfuture said | January 7th 2010 @ 10:40pm | Report comment
again, the curtain raiser idea would be stupid as it would be relatively insignificant as it would basically be preselected players anyway. and the nuovo ARC would be looking at expanding appeal to selectors for unknown or unlooked at players
January 10th 2010 @ 7:48pm
sharminator said | January 10th 2010 @ 7:48pm | Report comment
I agree completely simon.
With a super 15 … the only reason for another tier is developmental … but the reality is that no one is going to sponsor or pay for a new developmental competition, that is without the top 150 players in the country until July.
At the moment club rugby plays this developmental role and I think that is working. The Force and now the Melbourne Franchise will give a look in to players coming down non traditional pathways (as the Brumbies did in their early years).
I think Academy or under 20 games as curtain raisers .. during the month of derby games when the 5 Aussie teams play each in their conference, could fill this role well, exposing players to a higher level, giving them an opportunity, and developing them.
January 10th 2010 @ 8:10pm
rugbyfuture said | January 10th 2010 @ 8:10pm | Report comment
its 30 and possibly going down to 28 player squads, those that need exposure to the public and the unions are obviously quite unknown and relegated to the local club competitions which are unwatched, if they do pick up a development contract, they are still unexposed to promotion to the real squad until they can prove their worth, which is much harder if you’re playing academy rugby. alot of current players that were found within the ARC are now playing in the top squads and rose quickly because of this. also the third tier would allow for all the players of the same level to develop with eachother by playing eachother.relegating developmental rugby means few opportunities, especially in terms of proffesionalism and is one reason the NRL are able to poach schoolboy players into the NRL and toyota cup, because it is easier to attain proper careers as rugby players. it would also help to expose rugby to australia more in terms of internal interest.
January 10th 2010 @ 10:23pm
sharminator said | January 10th 2010 @ 10:23pm | Report comment
“those that need exposure to the public and the unions are obviously quite unknown and relegated to the local club competitions which are unwatched”
Id have to disagree. Thesedays naturally talented players are being noticed and signed straight out of school and fast tracked into development …such as Beale and O’Connor.
And I dont think that club rugby in Australia is unwatched. The provinces are signing the top young and developing players out of club rugby … and several times this year Robbie Deans went to club rugby games.
On the Wallaby tour this autumn were 3 players who made a name for themselves in Seven’s and Club rugby, rather than Super 14, so that shows that alternative pathways are working right up to Wallaby selection.
With the addition of an extra province 30 extra places will become available to other players … to be signed and get their chance.
“if they do pick up a development contract, they are still unexposed to promotion to the real squad until they can prove their worth, which is much harder if you’re playing academy rugby”
I guess that is just the reality of sport … it is competative. We cant all be Super 14 players. And to replace a 5 year veteran you have to show that you are better … not just the same .. the whole point of an academy contract is to see if you are up to it or not.
For me, the current development pathways in Australia are working, and working well. Australia has a young, developing team, perhaps lacking a little experience, but it has a lot of potetnial.
Lastly, the reason Rugby League will always be able to poach schoolboy rugby players is purely down to numbers. There are 16 NRL teams with under 20 teams, and only 4 .. soon to be 5 professional rugby teams in Australia with a small number or academy contracts.
Obviously someone missing out on an academy contract, or forced to wait a few years in rugby might be tempted into league … but as rocky elsom has shown, this mightny be a bad thing, he thinks that his stint in league helped his physical development massively.
As i said before, under 20 or academy games, played as curtain rasiers before the intra Australian conference super 15 games would give any developing club players a chance.
Another tier of rugby would be costly, unattractive to tv, lose money, and fulfil an unncessary role.
January 10th 2010 @ 10:50pm
rugbyfuture said | January 10th 2010 @ 10:50pm | Report comment
“Lastly, the reason Rugby League will always be able to poach schoolboy rugby players is purely down to numbers. There are 16 NRL teams with under 20 teams, and only 4 .. soon to be 5 professional rugby teams in Australia with a small number or academy contracts.”
that is the greatest problem, with the relatively small numbers of rugby union players and supporters all around the ARU and the varying provincial unions need to retain as many of the top players than they can, a third tier can accomodate for this.
costs as i have said a million times and within the article could more practically be absorbed by private interests.
most Rugby seems to be unattractive to tv these days and we have to work to make it attractive and they fulfill quite a role, there are plenty of posts on this site which can argue for this. interestingly enough, the greatest function of this is not retention although thats close, its marketing.
January 10th 2010 @ 11:20pm
sharminator said | January 10th 2010 @ 11:20pm | Report comment
?????
“that is the greatest problem, with the relatively small numbers of rugby union players and supporters all around the ARU and the varying provincial unions need to retain as many of the top players than they can, a third tier can accomodate for this”
This is the part of your argument that makes no sense.
Australian rugby has a small numbers of players … so it needs a third tier to retain players?
Retention isnt really a problem in Aussie rugby. Some young players go to league .. but with 7′s and academies …the cream of the crop are now kept in rugby, and a lot more so than in the past.
And .. as already stated … a 5th Super team is going to improve retention and development even more.
Australian rugby actually has done a very good job in identifying players and punching above its weight when you compare our player numbers to other countries. There are some players who go to league … or who choose to go overseas .. but apart from a few exceptions they are not regular Wallabies or are older players looking for a new experience.
At the moment a 3rd tier … club rugby in Australia .. exists, and it is self sustaining at minimal cost.
Most supporters of rugby tend to be people who played club or schoolboy rugby in some form so this tier also
has marketing and promotional benefits.
As for private investment, No one is going to invest in a 3rd tier rugby competition without the best 150 players in the country .. and more specifically without the Wallabies, especially in an overcrowded sports market like Australia already has.
From a marketing perspective … a new competition has no plusses. We now have Super teams in 5 major sports markets … the momentum built around these teams is then followed by test rugby.
Club rugby is televised in Sydney and Brisbane and has a following. A new competition, with new unknown teams .. but huge costs .. is simply not worth the investment from any point of view .. and will be a financial disaster with few tangible benefits as the original ARC showed.
The real point is that 90% of Australian rugby players are from the Sydney, Brisbane and to a lesser extent Canberra competitions (some not originally but they go to the best club comps to make a name for themselves and try to get a super contract). This is the reason why an ARC style competition will never work. A Melbourne or Perth ARC team simply means relocating and having to pay more players from Sydney and Brisbane to move there. In contrast in New Zealand or South Africa rugby has always been a national sport so national competitions there work.
January 11th 2010 @ 12:08am
rugbyfuture said | January 11th 2010 @ 12:08am | Report comment
you seem to think that Rugby in australia should stay still. unfortunatley for you, rugby needs to grow, otherwise it will fade into mere nothingness. a third tier will not only initially provide a stepping stone for those in club rugby, but provide a top down value to improve those playing in juniors and club, rectifying the player numbers it takes from club rugby within a few years.
also as i said, the gold coast, sunshine coast and western sydney consortiums were more than happy to invest in new clubs in order to develop rugby and werent exactly concerned over the top players being there. Many big money businessmen would be persuaded quite easily to invest in the fame initially based on the premise of development and ultimately turning into a long term investment with profit, especially if the competition were to take off without the controls put up by the ARU. The ARC we have no idea of the complete financial and administrative model, and so a sustainable model, as with any business, cna be found, even when a similiar business in the past has failed.
this new competition would also help even out the top players in each state, as they would most likely refer to the club tier as a junior level, in every state. The NRL and AFL both proove that making a localised sport slightly national can work, and rugby union still has a wider appeal throughout australia, meaning that a national comp can become and is sustainable.
January 11th 2010 @ 4:31pm
sharminator said | January 11th 2010 @ 4:31pm | Report comment
rugby isnt staying still!!! … there is a new Super 15 franchise …the number or games aussie teams and players will play at super level will almost double with the Super 15.
This is growth .. and growth at a top class level which is attractive to broadcasters and the public!!! With the Perth and now Melbourne franchises the rugby development, exposure and interest in those states has increased 1000% as well as increasing nationally and increasing the opportunities for up and coming players by 60%.
As I’ve already said .. there is no need for another level or rugby in the country … there will soon be 150 contracted players in Super 15 squads … plus academies … below that 22 1st grade clubs in brisbane and sydney and the overwhelming majority of super players come from these competitions …
Businessmen were interested in a Super 15 franchise. They will not be interested in investing in a lower level of rugby, without the 150 best players in the country, especially in australia’s already overcroweded sports market.
You so far havnt presented any compelling arugment as to why this new tier is necessary, the benefits it will bring, or why anyone would want to invest in it.
And how many teams? from where? who will support it? No benefits … high costs … no point ….
January 11th 2010 @ 4:50pm
rugbyfuture said | January 11th 2010 @ 4:50pm | Report comment
if it was currently attractive to broadcasters and the public wouldn’t it all be on free to air? did you even read the article? pay attention and take heed on EVERY word of my comments and article. the NRL have 400 players contracted each season with 16 teams. thats more than double the amount Rugby has and one reason so many talented schoolboys are and will drain away.
January 11th 2010 @ 6:23pm
sharminator said | January 11th 2010 @ 6:23pm | Report comment
?????
Now you are just dreaming or being silly.
you cant compare rugby league to rugby union in australia.
I prefer rugby union to rugby league, having always played union, but the reality is that AFL is the number 1 winter sport in Australia, rugby league number 2, and soccer has more participants than rugby.
“According to official government statistics, in 2005–06, the most popular sports in terms of crowd attendance were Australian rules football, horse racing, rugby league, motorsport, cricket, rugby union and soccer (association football) in descending order.”[2]
“Research by a marketing company found that those attracting the “most interest” among adults in capital cities during 2006-07 were cricket, swimming, tennis, Australian rules football, soccer, rugby league, rugby union and motor sport.”[3]
Although “For the first time ever, league has outrated AFL according to official numbers around the country. In 2009, rugby league claimed an aggregate television audience on free-to-air and pay-TV of 128.5 million compared to AFL’s 124.3 million”
“According to official statistics, the most popular forms of “physical recreation activity” among Australians aged 15 years and over, in 2005-06 were walking, aerobics/fitness, swimming, golf, tennis, soccer and Australian rules football ”
Reality 1: rugby union is a minor sport in australia. It is never going to reach the popularity of league or AFL
and we are never going to have 16 Super teams and the popularity of rugby does not justfy this.
Reality 2: 5 super 15 teams is more than enough for Australia.
The ARU admits this lack of depth by allowing 10 foreign players to be in the new Melbourne franchise.
Reality 3: There is no market for a new, third, minor tier or rugby in australia. It would be a complete waste of money.
The current super system rewards excellent players who stand out at club rugby, the next tier.
A 3rd tier would be without the best 130 players in the country.
No one would want to watch a 3rd tier.
No one would sponsor a 3rd tier.
The ARU and Unions would not fund a 3rd tier.
The clubs would not back a 3rd tier.
The only people who would benefit from a 3rd tier would be players who arnt good enough to ever stand out enough to be within the top 130 players in the country. But at the moment aspiring players get noticed in club rugby, so event development idea dosnt really work.
Your idea has no substance and no logic. Think before you post.
January 11th 2010 @ 6:34pm
rugbyfuture said | January 11th 2010 @ 6:34pm | Report comment
i think plenty before i post and thats why i have managed to get so many articles published, most here would agree with me on needing a third tier, its dillusional to ever think that Rugby needs to stay as a minor sport. It definitely needs to grow and the proof is right there that Rugby union used to be higher on the list than it is now. those players who would participate would build the crowds and then the crowds will build them, someone needs to provide the catalyst and that catalyst should be its creation rather than relying on crowds and players to develop to a dream that isn’t in place.
January 11th 2010 @ 7:26pm
Spencer said | January 11th 2010 @ 7:26pm | Report comment
Currently most league and union juniors with talent are scouted from/across both games. League offers 400 + full professional contracts, and another 400-600 semi-pro contracts. Union offers nothing like this (120 + 100??) and therefore its ability to progressively and sensible develop talent (as League does with Toyota cup etc) is limited. Furthermore because top-end talent such as Beale and Cooper are fast tracked straight from school it creates other problems (social/strength etc).
Union needs to understand that it is competing directly with League (and soon AFL – once Melbourne S15 gets going) for the same talent (i.e. collision sports men). Currently union would get at best 10% (guess) of the best collision sportsmen in Australia. If this could be doubled to 20% then it is reasonable to assume the quality would also increase to some extent.
I would prefer a 3rd tier competition on an U23 semi-pro basis with 12 teams. This would do minimal harm to current PR, and would actually allow PR to remain community based. I also think the 3T clubs should NOT be aligned with S15 organizations. I liked JFs suggestion of University based competition with financial support from private equity or benevolent alumni.
January 12th 2010 @ 6:34pm
sharminator said | January 12th 2010 @ 6:34pm | Report comment
keep dreamin …
January 12th 2010 @ 6:39pm
rugbyfuture said | January 12th 2010 @ 6:39pm | Report comment
dreams are a driving factor in realisation
January 18th 2010 @ 11:36am
Working Class Rugger said | January 18th 2010 @ 11:36am | Report comment
Spencer
I have previously posted a suggestion of using the existing Acadmey under the City they are based as the backbone of such a competition. The current 4 Academies plus the soon to be Rebels academy. Add in one from Western Sydney, Gold Coast and Adelaide ( other’s would be welcome). Each could be either run either independently or by the existing Unions as an extension of existing academy structures.
January 14th 2010 @ 10:52pm
Working Class Rugger said | January 14th 2010 @ 10:52pm | Report comment
Rugbyfuture
” one from Gibraltar and the other from Andorra – set to join in the future, too. ”
Where have you sourced your info on the teams from Gilbraltar and Andorra. Gilbraltar was mooted in the intiall planning late in 08 but were dropped. If they are back in contention then that’s excellent. Andorra on the other hand are news to me. I’ve been keeping an eye open for news on the second instalment of the Supaiberica de Rugby but haven’t seen any reference to Andorra. Could you forward me your source. Will make interesting reading.
January 14th 2010 @ 11:09pm
rugbyfuture said | January 14th 2010 @ 11:09pm | Report comment
it was a while back now soz, but it was part of a peice i read at one of the news sites about the foundation of the league, i was more presuming that they would continue with this plan since andorans share much with catalans and french and gibralter is british, ill have to check it to find where i read it and get back to you. in the mean time, i’ll be happy to wear my gibraltan jersey…
January 14th 2010 @ 11:17pm
rugbyfuture said | January 14th 2010 @ 11:17pm | Report comment
http://www.scrum.com/scrum/rugby/story/77607.html
“They also join at a crucial moment in the development of Spanish rugby, with plans underway for the launch next spring of an Iberian Super League with a dozen teams from Spain, Portugal, Andorra and Gibraltar, aimed at raising the profile of the game and moving it towards a more professional basis.”
..it would also make sense to even out to 12
January 14th 2010 @ 11:21pm
Working Class Rugger said | January 14th 2010 @ 11:21pm | Report comment
rugbyfuture
I know that the Portugese were looking at entering at least 2 teams come this season with another 2 a possiblilty if not now but in the near future. It’s an interesting development. One I was very surprised to hear about. Has its own TV Deal who also sponsor the League. Plus both Real Madrid ( Madrid Gatos) and Sevilla FC ( Mariners) have backed teams. Recently heard that Barca FC are looking to back the Catalan team.
January 14th 2010 @ 11:28pm
rugbyfuture said | January 14th 2010 @ 11:28pm | Report comment
I reckon rugby can grow to become the number 2 winter sport in spain, maybe portugual, then the lions (spain) would be playing les bleus and the poms and the irish, that would make it epic in europe, and make germany pick up the pace with the rugby bundesliga and so then u get western europe on ure side. especially if u get these big soccer clubs on the continent backingthese teams andit becomes sort of part of owning a sports club, you have one football team and a rugby team, perfectly complimentry in terms of the athletes they attract.
January 15th 2010 @ 8:06am
sharminator said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:06am | Report comment
The whole football in rugby thing hasnt really eventuated in Spain.
There is an FC Barcelona rugby club .. but it is a social club for FC Barcelona fans and plays in lower leagues.
A few years ago there was a takeover and rebranding of a higher league club .. but it fell apart.
The problem with football clubs in soccer in Spain has always been that the rugby clubs are afraid of losing their identity to real madrid .. barca … whatever … many clubs have been around a long time and dont want to be taken over to nothing. The Mariners have nothing to do with Sevilla FC. Im not sure about the gatos.
The reality is that rugby in spain is daylight behind soccer … there is rugby amongst those who know about it, but, having lived there, most spanish have never heard of rugby .. quite often if you talk to the Spanish about rugby they confuse it with american football.
I used to play for Rugby La Vila (now one of the superiberica teams, the Mariners) .. Spain has a high number of foregieners .. british ex pats, argies, romanians and the reality is that the majority of our team wasnt Spanish … only one of our forwards was Spanish. The Spanish physically are the shortest race in europe (only the Portugueese are behind) and they simply do no have the size.
The interesting point this develops is that the good club teams would beat the national team … as the national team is without the best players who tend to be the foreigners.
Spain is a long long way from being able to play france. The Super League Iberica is a good start .. but geographcially where some of the teams are dosnt make sense. A lot more also needs to be done regarding promotion. It exists .. but in the wider public no one knows about it.
I think a better option if you are looking for world development … especially from the australian perspective, iis South America, where I have been living recenty. Argentinian rugby is crying out for investment … the last RWC showed their potential .. and there is a high level of interest among the public. But they need support financially to get a league off the ground, and to help keep their players in the country.
The recently discussed idea of a rule requiring a few argies per super team in SA and a few pacific islanders per aus and nz super team is also a good idea.
January 18th 2010 @ 10:18pm
rugbyfuture said | January 18th 2010 @ 10:18pm | Report comment
the superiberica thing only just started though, the gatos are owned and sponsored by real madrid and rugby sevilla fc is the one owned by sevilla fc haha.
January 19th 2010 @ 12:02am
sharminator said | January 19th 2010 @ 12:02am | Report comment
Dont know where you guys get your info from … its almost as bad as the AFL nutters on world AFL expansion … so rugby dosnt lose credability, get your info right.
The gatos are not owned or sponsored by real madrid. They are a joint venture between the four historic higher level rugby clubs of Madrid – Club Alcobendas Rugby, Complutense Cisneros y C.R Liceo Francés and CRC Madrid.
The last club, Club Rugby Canoe Madrid, is the only club from Madrid presently in the Division Honor highest division of Spanish club rugby. They DID sign an agreement with Real Madrid in 2007 to become their Real Madrid’s Rugby Division from 2008, but nothing ever came of the agreement and they continue to be CRC Madrid.
The Andalucian representative, Seville F.C. is a joint venture between all andalucian clubs. They were allowed to use the name Seville F.C. by the football club, as in the past it was a strong participant in rugby but the participacion of Seville F.C. dosnt really go past the name. Games are shared amongst the grounds of the higher level clubs.
The bit that is relevant to the original post is this … the Liga Superiberica has nothing to do with the FER (Spanish Rugby Federation). It was organsied by Michael Robinson, an Englishman, franchises were given to the people with the most money, and the real problem is that the competition is run during the Spanish off season (Spanish summer).
So it is similar to the idea of starting a non ARU comp in Australia.
I was talking to one of my former teammates from Rugby La Vila yesterday, and as he said, the problem is that apart from the normal season playing for his club, he now has the Super Iberica, so there is no off season for them. The other problem is that the franchises dont reflect reality. The Super Iberica is on top of the long regular season.
This raised an interesting question, if you start a non ARU competition who would play in it. Surely all Aussie players really want to play Super 15 or for Australia, and would therefore only playiIn a sanctioned comp. Or are we imaging a world series cricket or Super league war type situation in Australia?
The Seville, Madrid, Basque and Catalunya teams are joint ventures between some of the rugby clubs of those areas, however the Mariners and Cavaliers are simply club teams with a few extras, and players from their rivals dont want to play for them. There is also a problem that lots of players are not included in the areas the teams represent.
Anyway… for rugby development in OZ.. focus on the super 15, promoting the new derbies, and for development have academies play each other
January 19th 2010 @ 1:23am
rugbyfuture said | January 19th 2010 @ 1:23am | Report comment
my mistake on the superiberica then sharminator, it is hard for me to navigate through xenolingual articles, i was rather under the impression that gatos was in fact owned by madrid and sevilla was in fact names for its owner. (you were a bit offensive and attacking in this reply however which i do not appreciate).
what we are looking at in this theoretical situation is the new comp, independantly enginered and maintained become a stepping stone for those not represented at the super rugby level. and eventually reforming within the ARU’s powers. we are avoiding the super league situation obviously. a base would eventually become the superclubs equivalents put forward in the failed ARC but with a competition that was sustained through private ownership in its foundation years and having these years dedicated to creating a fan base. the academies and super rugby provide insufficient exposure to the stakeholders who would be involved.
January 19th 2010 @ 5:24am
Jannerboyuk said | January 19th 2010 @ 5:24am | Report comment
So what would you call the no2 winter sport in spain right now then RF?
January 19th 2010 @ 4:35pm
sharminator said | January 19th 2010 @ 4:35pm | Report comment
After football, basketball is probably the biggest sport in Spain. Not sure if Motor Racing is a summer or winter sport, but Formula 1 and Motorbike racing are also huge.
As in many countries rugby is a popular minority sport in Spain. I’d say its popularity is similar the level of popularity of rugby to the US where I also played. Those that know about rugby tend to be very strong supporters of it … but apart from those involved, rugby is not well known amongst the general population.
There isnt much exposure in the popular media … occasionally Spainish games, and some league games are shown on minor cable channels at strange hours. The Super Liga is also now shown.
In certain towns … Vallodalid .. the Basque Region .. parts of Catalonia … and La Vila Joiosa rugby is popular and the people in those towns know what rugby actually is … but football is still number 1.
A problem is that good athletes tend to always be taken up by football .. and all the tall athletes by basketball. In my club in Spain we only had 1 or 2 Spanish forwards as they simply didnt have the size to be front rowers or second rowers or number 8′s.
Rugby is also very much an ex-pat game in Spain. Argentinians in particular dominate some clubs. There are also quite a lot of Romanians and Georgians in Spanish rugby. Depending on the region a lot of Brits also play rugby in Spain. In my club .. in terms of home grown Spanish players … we had 4 Spanish in our usual first team. Its a bit of a circle really as the Spanish sometimes felt excluded or got annoyed by the dominance of ex pats .. but on the other hand ex pats were improving the level of rugby …
Generally, when I played in Spain if I told Spanish people that I played rugby, they quite often thought that rugby was the same as American football .. asking if it was the Ameircan sport with about the helmets and padding (they have seen American football in movies and cable channels) … and its impossible to buy a pair of rugby boots in a shop … you have get them by mail order.