Storm CEO defects to rival Rebels
By Melissa Woods, 11 Jan 2010 Melissa Woods is a Roar Pro
- Tagged:
- Brian Waldron, Melbourne Rebels, Melbourne Storm, NRL, Rugby League, Rugby Union, Super 15
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Melbourne Storm NRL chief executive Brian Waldron has jumped codes to become the first big-name league signing by the new Melbourne Super 15 rugby franchise.
While attention was focused on Australian and Queensland league halfback Johnathan Thurston, who has been linked to the outfit which will join an expanded competition next year, Waldron’s departure from the Storm to the Rebels came as a shock.
With previous experience as the CEO of St Kilda AFL club and before that an administrative role with Richmond, as well as his five years experience with the Storm, his appointment is a coup for the Rebels as they look for a foothold in the AFL heartland.
Staff, coaches and players were told on Monday, and Matt Hanson, who was the Storm’s chief operating officer, will take over immediately as acting chief executive.
Waldron could be quickly followed into the Rebels by World Cup-winning former Wallabies coach Rod Macqueen.
It’s believed Macqueen, who was also a key figure in establishing from scratch the country’s most successful Super rugby franchise, the Canberra-based Brumbies, will take on a position as director of coaching.
Macqueen, who has been consulting to the Melbourne franchise, said he intended to meet with Waldron and the Rebels board this week.
“I have to have talks with officials down there and that will decide what role I play,” he said.
Under Waldron’s off-field leadership, the Storm have contested the last four NRL grand finals, winning two of them.
“I leave the Storm in tremendous shape and we’ve achieved some amazing things here in my time,” Waldron told AAP.
“It’s an opportunity to build a whole new business, which is something that’s really enticing.”
The Rebels ownership was only settled last week with chairman, media buyer Harold Mitchell, among the owners.
Waldron said discussions and his decision were completed quickly.
“It was a very quick turnaround but in the end for all involved I thought it was best I made a quick decision,” he said.
“It was a difficult and emotional decision to make.
“I wasn’t looking for a new challenge but, when it was put in front of me, it’s the right strategic career move for me at this moment.”
Still employed by the Storm for another month, Waldron didn’t want to discuss his new role and ambitions for the Rebels.
However, he has always been welcoming of their presence in the Melbourne market, believing a new code in town would help spike Victorian interest in non-AFL sports.
A Storm statement said their board would like to “sincerely thank” Waldron for his time at the club and the “magnificent contribution” he had made to it.
Mitchell officially announced Waldron’s appointment in a statement late on Monday.
“Brian’s talents as an organisational leader and his ability to nurture and operate successful sporting entities at the highest level are well evidenced,” the chairman said.
“He is thoroughly committed to achieving success with the Rebels and to developing a team that embodies leadership and integrity both on and off the field.
“His appointment is a vital step toward ensuring our club makes an outstanding permanent contribution to Melbourne’s sporting culture.”
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- Brian Waldron, Melbourne Rebels, Melbourne Storm, NRL, Rugby League, Rugby Union, Super 15

rugbyfuture said | January 11th 2010 @ 2:45pm | Report comment
quick, but not quick enough, whoevers in charge of the AAP feed
Bay35Pablo said | January 11th 2010 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
RF, in that the Daily Terror got the wire out under their own label as cited by Dogs of War on another Rebels thread?
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/nrl/brian-waldron-defects-to-super-15-franchise-melbourne-rebels/story-e6frexnr-1225818097796
Bay35Pablo said | January 11th 2010 @ 2:50pm | Report comment
The OZ cited AAP at 1.50pm.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/sport/brian-waldron-joins-super-rugbys-melbourne-rebels/story-e6frg7mf-1225818117274
rugbyfuture said | January 11th 2010 @ 3:08pm | Report comment
in that it got to two threads and was highly commented on on this site before this came on on this site.
Bay35Pablo said | January 11th 2010 @ 3:09pm | Report comment
Sorry, came late to the threads, and these forums don’t have time stamps. Understand-ee.
(edited) The Roar gets trumped by the regular news for once!!!
Zac Zavos said | January 11th 2010 @ 4:16pm | Report comment
Rugbyfuture – our funding is a little different to The Oz or Daily Tele!
The backbone of the site is you guys, so please simply drop us a line via the contact form (http://www.theroar.com.au/contact-us) should we ever miss or be late on any news item like this.
Thanks,
Zac
rugbyfuture said | January 11th 2010 @ 4:22pm | Report comment
nah just havin a bit of a joke with ya, maybe you should add a give us a tip tab near or next to the submit an article one. like gawker media and weblogs inc have on their pages.
M1tch said | January 11th 2010 @ 2:46pm | Report comment
Storm seem to like St Kilda men
Zac Zavos said | January 12th 2010 @ 7:42am | Report comment
Rugbyfuture – we have a Tip us Off link at the footer of the page. Will look to make it more prominent. cheers, Zac
The Answer said | January 11th 2010 @ 2:49pm | Report comment
It will be interesting to see what the rugby public make of this. They are constantly saying that the Storm have been a huge failure in Melbourne, so surely you can’t hail the signing of a man who was in charge of that failure.
Bay35Pablo said | January 11th 2010 @ 2:53pm | Report comment
2 titles and 4 finals in a row, not a failure on the field. If the Rebels can follow that, they’ll be doing awesome.
The problem with the Storm has been crowds (which has been partially the stadium and partially being in an AFL town), and getting on TV (which is Channle 9 and their conflict of interest given they have AFL currently). Juniors wise they have done OK in starting from very little. Union has a larger junior and fan base to an extent, so hopefully Waldron can run with that and do even better.
Can the Rebels out Brumbie the Brumbies?
Brett McKay said | January 11th 2010 @ 2:55pm | Report comment
Pablo, I’d expect Republican to lob in to answer that question…
ren said | January 11th 2010 @ 5:18pm | Report comment
the football is on seven and ten, was on nine and ten previously, so no conflict of interest there
Bay35Pablo said | January 12th 2010 @ 10:02am | Report comment
Hmm, you’re right. Meh, never watch AFL anymore anyway. Channel Nine seems to have its head up its a$$ in Melbourne on footy. I guess if they put NRL on Friday nighs they’d have the Melbourne Footy Show boof heads come around and whinge along with Eddie Everywhere. So there are enough AFL heads there to create tension and conflict.
The Answer said | January 11th 2010 @ 6:08pm | Report comment
Not sure how many tackles Waldron made, he is responsible for off the field, which Pete Fitzsimmons constantly points out is an entity losing $6 million per year and gets crowds of circa 12,000.
Dassie said | January 12th 2010 @ 12:32pm | Report comment
Absolutely, the Rebels will do a Storm.
One city team, in isolation, Rebels by name…..
Siva Samoa said | January 11th 2010 @ 2:59pm | Report comment
a couple of rugby fans on the net doesn’t represent the whole rugby community.
StormGal said | January 12th 2010 @ 1:47am | Report comment
The rugby public are saying Storm have been a huge failure in Melbourne?? Oh dear. We will be fielding 4 teams in Melbourne this year – an U/18′s squad, U20′s squad, Victorian squad playing in the NSW Cup and our 1st Grade Squad.
I can’t see how this can be classified as a failure.
rugbyfuture said | January 12th 2010 @ 2:28am | Report comment
and all will dissappear if fiscal policies arent put in place, especially with news ltd trying to dump you
StormGal said | January 12th 2010 @ 11:41pm | Report comment
Beg to differ with you, its the NRL trying to dump News Ltd.
rugbyfuture said | January 12th 2010 @ 11:44pm | Report comment
in which case, they’ll have to dump the storm and start anew or find a mystery bidder for the team. Mainly in relation to the whole club as a business model and the 6 million dollar per annum debt generated.
Brett McKay said | January 11th 2010 @ 2:54pm | Report comment
as I said in the other thread on this, Waldron is a good signing, someone Melbourne knows, and someone who knows Melbourne…
Dogs Of War said | January 11th 2010 @ 2:58pm | Report comment
Can Waldron pull this off?
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/nrl/rebels-join-race-for-thurston/comments-e6frexnr-1225817884008
THE tug of war for Johnathan Thurston’s signature has taken a surprise twist, with the Melbourne Super Rugby franchise targeting the NRL star as a foundation player.
The Daily Telegraph can reveal that Thurston’s camp fielded an approach from a senior Australian rugby figure on behalf of the Rebels six weeks ago.
But a public squabble with the ARU over funding has since stalled the negotiations, which could resume this week with Melbourne expected to finalise several official appointments.
A source close to the negotiations said a member of the new consortium had made secret inquiries about Thurston’s desire to switch codes by engaging an intermediary to contact the player’s manager.
“An approach was made but it was some time ago,” the source said.
“There was a desire to know whether Thurston was serious about switching codes and how he’d feel about doing so in Melbourne. That’s as far as it has gone at this stage.”
_______________
Personally I believe it would be a waste of money, he is too old to make that transition. And really not worth that amount of money, you would have though the ARU had learnt that lesson, but the new boys on the block don’t want to heed their advice it seems.
Roger said | January 11th 2010 @ 3:01pm | Report comment
Matt Carroll already said last week that ARU is not interested in Thurston for same or more than he was on at NRL, plain, clear and simple. Pity that News Ltd when writing this story didnt do their reserch and has somehow also said consortium and ARU are still fighting…terrible journalism.
M1tch said | January 11th 2010 @ 7:30pm | Report comment
your in dream land if you think the ARU doesnt want Thurston, or any League player who would put their hand up
rugbyfuture said | January 11th 2010 @ 7:41pm | Report comment
best pickup in terms of marketability in melbourne would be slater
M1tch said | January 11th 2010 @ 7:41pm | Report comment
lucky he is signed up til 2012
rugbyfuture said | January 11th 2010 @ 7:47pm | Report comment
i heard he always has an escape clause in his contracts for clubs outside of the NRL, 2012 is still good though, one year after establishment
Bay35Pablo said | January 11th 2010 @ 3:07pm | Report comment
The Tele and Nine just don’t know how to report Union. They just can’t help thinking in league terms, and sensationalising it.
The ARU showed their attitude to league players with Tuqiri and Tahu. if a player doesn’t want to come for the game, and not fit into the system, they don’t want them. They will not pay a premium for them like they did in the early 2000s with Rogers, Sailor et al. JON has made clear his policy, and the man’s not for turning.
Thurston is a talent, and would be a “name” that would attract attention in Melbourne because of his profile in league. However, the ARU would look at him, value him within their talent struture, and go on that. Thurston likely wants more than that, especially as in his agent’s mind he’d be looking at what japan or Europe could pay him (which is way above the ARU).
Thurston will probably stay in the NRL, or go to foreign union. If he does come to union he will take a big pay cut from what he could get, and I’d be very pleasantly surprised.
But it won’t happen.
Brett McKay said | January 11th 2010 @ 3:07pm | Report comment
Dogs, a couple of mates and I were discussing this very article today, and I happen to think it’s a classic case of manager-speak, and that “the source” is actually Thurston’s manager. He’s the only person the article quotes directly, and blow me down if he doesn’t confirm the alleged approach….
I think this whole code-switch thing is a crock too – remember he’d supposedly had a “concrete” $1M offer from Japan?? Why now is it only mentioned in dispatches as “..$1 million-a-year-plus approaches from cashed-up European and Japanese rugby clubs.”?? He’ll end up re-signing with NQ before too long.
On the other hand, I read elsewhere today that Luke Rooney is set to join Worcester next year (from Toulon) to replace Chris Latham, who is ……. returning to Australia. He’s the sort of player I’d be calling from Melbourne….
Bay35Pablo said | January 11th 2010 @ 3:08pm | Report comment
And Rooney is allegedly looking to play for England. The way they are playing he might get into the squad too!!!
Dogs Of War said | January 11th 2010 @ 3:10pm | Report comment
I tend to agree he will stay at the Cowboys, mainly because his missus is the marketing manager at the Cowboys, so it seems silly to throw that in. If he does move, it will be to the Bulldogs to replace Kimmorley (Kevin Moore was Thurston’s coach for the majority of his time at the Bulldogs)
Brett McKay said | January 11th 2010 @ 3:13pm | Report comment
just to clarify my unfortunate typing, I’d be calling Latham from Melbourne, not Rooney…
Bay35Pablo said | January 11th 2010 @ 3:17pm | Report comment
I have been thinking about who the Rebels might pick up from the 1st XV of other Aussie temas, and it might be afew good players.
E.g. At the tahs in the hooker position, we have TPN (on fire), Freier (coming back from injury) and Fitzpatrick (talented youngster). Let’s say TPN gets injured (I bloody well hope not!) and Fitzy gets picked, Freier would be thinking about going to the Rebels to get game time and try to get his Wallaby spot back. Similarly if TPN stays No. 1 hooker all year. If TPN and Freier get the picks, the Fitzy starts thinking he might go.
I suspect there are a number of scenarios like that for a number of positions at each team. Toomua and Lealifano(?) at Brumbies are the same, and they have so much talent they have to lose a few!
rugbyfuture said | January 11th 2010 @ 3:19pm | Report comment
TPN has such a loyalty to western syd he wouldnt change, frier might, hes a bit of a fashionista from what i understand and he’d love melbourne!
rugbyfuture said | January 11th 2010 @ 3:29pm | Report comment
and dont forget that the other day when they said they’d release info on the high profile nrl admin they also said they were targeting a NUMBER of RL international backline players
Brett McKay said | January 11th 2010 @ 3:26pm | Report comment
Lealiifano, having made the Aust Schoolboys from Melbourne, twice, would be a big chance of returning home, I’d imagine..
McKibbon might be another one too, if he can’t get past Burgess and Holmes.
It’s a shame Scott Fava retired, now only Josh Valentine can be the first to play for all five sides!!
kingplaymaker said | January 12th 2010 @ 5:42am | Report comment
Brett, he’s also the least worthwhile major star for the ARU to sign. He’s too old and will be in decline soon after he has adapted, he plays in the one position where Australia have more strength than they know what to do with, and he seems to want a lot of money too.
The one interesting point in the reporting of this is that no one knows if the Melbourne stars have get-out clauses in their contracts. Waldron’s said he won’t approach them but if a player like Folau did have such a clause, he would be worth the money.
Unlike Thurston, he is young instead of old, plays in a position where Australia are very weak, and might not make quite the same financial demands.
Brett McKay said | January 12th 2010 @ 8:37am | Report comment
KPM, apparantly the Rebels have denied any interest in Thurston today too, which somewhat confirms my suspicion above about “the source”…
Also, Waldron has indicated he won’t try and poach any Storm players. Interestigly though, he doesn’t start with the Rebels untl March 1. Either way, have you ever heard of a player following an administrator?!?
Folau, by the way, has been a Bronco for over 12 months now…
kingplaymaker said | January 12th 2010 @ 9:36am | Report comment
Brett Slater and Cameron Smith are too old to be worth the investment. Inglis, Hayne, Folau and Hunt are the only top players young enough to justify the sums required to buy them in terms of the return of a a long career. Hunt’s gone, while Inglis and Hayne would be defended strongly by the NRL as their two biggest stars. Folau has been off-form and injured, and they might capture the NRL napping if they made a serious play now..
Brett McKay said | January 12th 2010 @ 9:49am | Report comment
KPM, Inglis is the only current NRL player I’d want, personally speaking. If Lockyer was 22 instead of 32, he’d be another..
kingplaymaker said | January 12th 2010 @ 10:26am | Report comment
I think Australia are awful on the wings at the moment so would be glad of almost anyone else.
However, whichever players might be worth having, they do not include Thurston.
kingplaymaker said | January 12th 2010 @ 11:23am | Report comment
In fact Brett by chance I just read this:
‘Although the Rebels have allocated four spots in their 2011 playing roster to rugby league converts, Waldron has done them no favours by signing such likely targets as Greg Inglis and Billy Slater to long-term contracts with the Storm. Not that he has any intention of raiding the club where he will continue to work for the next four weeks.
“I’d never do anything detrimental to the Storm,” he said.
Indeed, while there have been suggestions the Rebels are interested in Johnathan Thurston, the league player starting to excite most interest is Israel Folau, the former Melbourne winger and centre who moved last year to the Brisbane Broncos.
Although it is widely believed he is committed to the Broncos for another three seasons, in fact Folau signed only a two-year contract with a two-year option, meaning he could well become a target of the new Super 15 club.’
Roger said | January 11th 2010 @ 2:58pm | Report comment
The failure was market share, not organisational. What League deeply cherished to enable bigger market share in Melbourne can be obtained with Union’s place in a (more) international sport. Melbourne will now have a team playing NZ and SA teams, home and away, and players with ‘Melbourne Rebels’ next to their name when playing for Wallabies or Aust Sevens Team.
Stay tuned for announcement (tomorrow?) that McQueen Head Coach for next year…now who could be this mysterious assistant coach to take over in 2012?
Ziggy the God said | January 11th 2010 @ 4:05pm | Report comment
Market share? The Rebels have less chance of being on FTA than the Storm, and that is the way that you build support amongst the masses.
In terms of crowds, we continually hear about the vast swathes of Union support in Melbourne, and I will believe it when I see it.
At least Wadron knows what it is like to run an organisation that loses millions each year, because that is what he will be running when it comes to the Rebels.
The only difference is that this time it will be private owners copping the losses, so l give them around 3-5 years before they bail out and the whole thing folds, because the ARU couldn’t even run a micky mouse comp that cost $5m a year, so there is no chance that they could take over the reins.
Bay35Pablo said | January 12th 2010 @ 10:04am | Report comment
Ziggy, it didn’t cost $5m a year, it lost that in its first year setting up.
John allyne said | January 11th 2010 @ 4:07pm | Report comment
Roger
I hope some young talented Australian backs coach who has the vision to coach and not some outdated ex School teacher coach like the Tahs have
Forgetmenot said | January 11th 2010 @ 4:29pm | Report comment
Just to point out.
A CEO (Chief Executive Officer) is basically concerned with the running of the business. Waldron has left Storm successful on the field but still losing millions a year off it.
Although he will be very good at promoting Rugby in the right way in Melbourne. He will know the mistakes that League has had, and also where Leagues weaknesses lie.
It may be a very good idea for the Rebels to target Storrm fans after initially targetting the Melbourne public.
rugbyfuture said | January 11th 2010 @ 4:31pm | Report comment
how were the storm running before he came to power in terms of losses? anyone know?
Pete said | January 11th 2010 @ 5:05pm | Report comment
Not sure but it appears he did well at St Kilda. Perhaps the AFL Roarers know if this was his doing or something/somone else
“In October 1999 he joined the St.Kilda Football Club as General Manger, Football Operations and was promoted to CEO in late 2001. In his time in charge of the Saints, Waldron oversaw gross turnover growth from $13.7million at the end of 2002 to in excess of $21million in 2005. Under his leadership the Club achieved a net turnaround in business operations from a loss of $3.7million in 2002 to a profit of $580,000 in 2003 and $1 million EBIT in 2004. ”
http://www.melbournebusinessnetwork.org.au/objectlibrary/443?filename=Brian%20Waldron%20Biography-Overview.doc
Redb said | January 12th 2010 @ 5:26am | Report comment
Waldron’s success was more about Melbournising the Storm, tapping into the membership culture, integrating RL as a niche sport in Melbourne. Up until Waldron, the Storm were like a team that were based Melbourne but still lived out of their suitcases.
Waldron was the most heard Storm voice on Melbourne radio with daylight second. He made a significant contribution.
Redb
Michael C said | January 12th 2010 @ 9:23am | Report comment
Interesting that Waldron was probably most heard in Melbourne (a weekly regular on SEN with Kevin Bartlett and Neil Balme) – - whereas, he probably was never heard in Sydney where I’d suggest more ‘NRL’ credible voices were heard on behalf of the Storm???
StormGal said | January 12th 2010 @ 11:50pm | Report comment
Some Storm fans will buy memberships for both clubs. Hopefully we can grab some of the Rebel fans to do the same. Most likely that will happen too or are you ruggers too insular to do that lol.?
rugbyfuture said | January 12th 2010 @ 11:54pm | Report comment
nope, most ruggers just dont like league, same as leagueys dont like union, except we have a better choice to follow
Jannerboyuk said | January 13th 2010 @ 12:07am | Report comment
Is this assumption or has anyone actually properly researched this? Anectdotes can be misleading. If the atmosphere of rugby is anti-league sometimes that can mean people keeping sctum about liking league.
Crosscoder said | January 12th 2010 @ 6:23am | Report comment
Actually a shrewd move by the Rebels.Waldron knows the market,and it was he who stated the Storm have a base of up to 20,000 fans(based on the number attending the semi v Broncos with few Broncos fans in attendance at the Dome). This from basically scratch.He can therefore build a club such as the Rebels..
He like any CEO who has achieved somewhat,and is offered no doubt higher pay on a new venture,will jump ship.
He would aso be aware being part of the groundwork for the new NRL commission,and the Storm eventually pulling out,as a News Ltd appointee his postion may not be guaranteed.More so when the Storm has private backing.
The Storm will also no doubt replace him with a high profile CEO with Vic knowledge.
The Storm’s backline stars have been tied up til end 2012.
i find it amazing that the Storm have been criticised for having non Vic players,yet the Rebels(in a long established ru state with 5,000 plus registered players) are tripping over themselves to get NRL backline leaguies,Sth Africans,NZedders,Johnny Wilkinson anyone who has picked up a Gilbert.
RF
The current losses for that club firstly are not as great as Fitzsimons likes to bang on about(and boy does he crap on) taking into account tax losses,secondly the club will get more through the gate on the new stadium and Waldron has stated in the past more sponsors boxes.OP was and is a dogbox for sponsors and indeed for fans.The expected increase in TV contract monies and the retention of a 16 team NRL for teh time being,will ensure an increase in the salary cap and a further dent into any Storm losses.
Anycase i like the idea of 2 rugby clubs in existence in Melbourne.Cross marketing as far as ticketing(maybe)and more of an awareness of what the two codes are about and their unique playing styles.Although the Rebels will not appear anywhere in oz on FTA.Playing on alternate weekends.
Bay35Pablo said | January 12th 2010 @ 10:09am | Report comment
Crosscoder, “i find it amazing that the Storm have been criticised for having non Vic players,yet the Rebels(in a long established ru state with 5,000 plus registered players) are tripping over themselves to get NRL backline leaguies,Sth Africans,NZedders,Johnny Wilkinson anyone who has picked up a Gilbert.”
Um, the Storm have been there for over 10 years, so the question becomes when they will start to field local talent. The Rebels are a start up where the local players are playing the equivalent of subbies.
Didn’t the storm “trip over” themselves to sign out of state players when they set up? Because that’s what they had to start it with!!! The Rebels are in the same boat the Storm was over 10 years ago.
Paul J said | January 12th 2010 @ 7:56am | Report comment
Waldron is a great acquisition.
The biggest worry for the Rebels is private ownership. If they, like the Storm, take a while to get up and running in the AFL capital then it will put pressure on the private owners.
The NRL is more cashed up than the ARU – especially after they both sign their next TV rights deals – and the NRL can afford to help the Storm as long as it takes, the Rebels will not have that kind of on going financial support.
The Rebels will play in the new stadium which will help but they’ll need to make a profit asap or it will only build pressure for the private owners and the ARU that they don’t need.
Jay said | January 12th 2010 @ 8:44am | Report comment
Yeah that is a concern.. the melbourne franchise is financiall independent of the ARU and receives a smaller annual grant. If things go pear shaped, what sort of saftey net does the ARU have?
Bay35Pablo said | January 12th 2010 @ 10:10am | Report comment
They step in like the FFA has with HAL clubs. Except at least the FFA gets a franchise fee when they buy their franchise.
Sam el Perro said | January 12th 2010 @ 10:57am | Report comment
The only problem will be if the ARU’s capacity to step in isn’t great. I am _not_ saying that this is the case, by the way, rather observing that if the ARU does invest in another competition (as we were discussiong on another thred) or have to put some money into Qld or NSW, for example, their capacity to bail out the Rebels may be limited.
cam said | January 12th 2010 @ 8:15am | Report comment
Crosscoder get real mate. Only rugby team is the Rebels. League isn’t rugby. Just because you have ‘rugby’ in the name doesn’t mean it’s rugby. Loige has been living off rugby’s good name and international presence for a long time. It’s time you leaguies got yoru own name.
Storm fans must be quite scared about the Rebels!
M1tch said | January 12th 2010 @ 8:26am | Report comment
lol, yeh I suppose the game should have caved in to the Vichy and re-named to ‘game of 13′
calm down buddy, I’m sure the Rebels will do well for themselves
Brett McKay said | January 12th 2010 @ 8:28am | Report comment
guys, seriously, let’s not go down this tired, boring path again….
Justin said | January 12th 2010 @ 8:33am | Report comment
Agreed, get the moderators in if necessary but lets not stuff a good thread with the same old crap…