By AFP
January 14th 2010 @ 1:44am
Kiwi Hape in England’s Six Nations squad
Former New Zealand rugby league international Shontayne Hape was named on Wednesday in England’s squad for the Six Nations rugby union tournament.
The 28-year-old Hape, uncapped in union, was joined in the 32-man squad selected by England manager Martin Johnson by another former rugby league player who has yet to make his England debut in Northampton’s in-form wing Chris Ashton.
But backs Danny Cipriani and Shane Geraghty missed out on selection for the senior squad and were included instead in the second string Saxons party.
Nick Easter, Delon Armitage, Riki Flutey and Toby Flood, who all missed England’s disappointing November campaign through injury, were though included in the senior squad.
England, who managed just one try in three Tests in November, during a win over Argentina that fell between defeats by Australia and New Zealand, begin their Six Nations campaign at home to Wales on February 6.
England squad
Backs: Delon Armitage, Chris Ashton, Matt Banahan, Danny Care, Mark Cueto, Harry Ellis, Toby Flood, Ben Foden, Riki Flutey, Shontayne Hape, Dan Hipkiss, Paul Hodgson, Ugo Monye, Mathew Tait, Jonny Wilkinson. Forwards: Steffon Armitage, Steve Borthwick, Jordan Crane, Tom Croft, Louis Deacon, Nick Easter, Dylan Hartley, James Haskell, Courtney Lawes, Lee Mears, Lewis Moody, Tim Payne, Simon Shaw, Andrew Sheridan, Steve Thompson, Julian White, David Wilson.
Going to the Waratahs v Brumbies blockbuster at ANZ Stadium, Saturday 24 April? If you're keen to meet up with other Roarers, register you interest and we'll keep you informed on the place to meet. Register now.
Get Australia's best Rugby opinion emailed daily.
Like this content? Buzz it up!
Free Email updates:
Our daily emails are only sent if there is content for the sport or that author. You can subscribe to multiple daily emails; or get the daily Roar email with all our content in it. We value privacy. More...
(246)
kingplaymaker said | January 14th 2010 @ 8:58am | Report comment
(Comment deemed poor by Roar community - click to read)
Joh4Canberra said | January 14th 2010 @ 11:49pm | Report comment
Yeah, well, of the three he’s the only one who’s eligible to play for England anyway. I don’t think any of those three has an English-born parent or grandparent which means that the only way they could qualify is three years’ residency in England (and most of Hale’s residence period was spent playing RL). SBW and Gaz are in France (so no chance of qualifying for England on the grounds of residency) and in any event haven’t even been there for three years yet (so not yet eligible for France on the grounds of residency). At the moment Gaz is eligible for Australia only, while SBW is eligible for NZ (birth), Australia (residency) and Samoa (parents/grandparents).
Jannerboyuk said | January 15th 2010 @ 1:53am | Report comment
Is the residency rule just being in a place whatever sport an individual has been playing? i dont know why but i assumed they had to have been playing rugby union for that time.
Joh4Canberra said | January 18th 2010 @ 8:03am | Report comment
The residency rule is what it says on the tin: residency. There is no requirement to play three years’ worth of rugby union (or any sport for that matter).
Terry Kidd said | January 14th 2010 @ 9:16am | Report comment
Hello KO are you back on deck? Do you have any comments on the squad?
Sam Taulelei said | January 14th 2010 @ 9:42am | Report comment
Say it aint so, another Kiwi selected for England.
Dean Pantio said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:53am | Report comment
England raping the Islands again.
Grandpabhaile said | January 14th 2010 @ 10:10am | Report comment
It seems that KO is gone forever from the Roar.
But he does have a twin brother who has appeared relatively recently on the forum.
Terry Kidd said | January 14th 2010 @ 10:16am | Report comment
Okey dokey …. does he have any other comments on the squad? Does he have the same level, or better, insight on rugby matters in the NH as his twin? Tis good to see that the family is still represented here … lol
Grandpabhaile said | January 14th 2010 @ 10:26am | Report comment
You’ll have to ask him – maybe he’ll volunteer of his own accord.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 14th 2010 @ 11:10pm | Report comment
Ahoy hoy all. A reasonably solid squad. The injured parties are returning and there’s a good mix of experience and inexperience. There’s a few stodgers: Payne, Deacon, Hipkiss and Banahan, but they’re unlikely to feature, so I’m not going to complain until the 6N starts. Better to be positive, I suppose. Anyway, Sheridan, White and Ellis are likely to be removed due to injury, so I wait with baited breath to see the replacements.
I have a sneaking suspicion that England will have a good 6N. The only problem is the balance of the team. Will Wilkinson be able to work with Flutey? Personally I’d rather jettison Wilkinson to the bench and start Flood, who is a far, far better attacking fly half. I’m pleased that Hape is there. He chose to play union to qualify for England so he deserves the benefit of the doubt. He has been very good so far and deserves a shot. It’s interesting that kingplaymaker compares him to SBW and Gasnier, when SBW has been a complete non-event for Toulon and Gasnier has been hit and miss on the wing at Stade. Hape may be the lesser of the three league players but currently he is by far the best union player of the three.
Oh, Steve Borthwick hasn’t been confirmed as captain. Interesting methinks.
Jay said | January 14th 2010 @ 10:49am | Report comment
rubbish centre in league.
england’s rugby side is following their cricketers..
kingplaymaker said | January 14th 2010 @ 10:54am | Report comment
(Comment deemed poor by Roar community - click to read)
Wavell Wakefield said | January 14th 2010 @ 11:12pm | Report comment
You were demanding his inclusion months ago, as I recall, so pretty pointless negativity.
hutch said | January 14th 2010 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
why would a country with supposedly so many rugby union players need to keep picking players from other countries?
Stash said | January 14th 2010 @ 6:52pm | Report comment
Flutey has been a good player for England – makes one scratch their heads how he even got lost to NZ.
2 ex-league players being called up for the national Union team – oh dear, not a good indication of depth. Still Johnson has to do something- his record is looking almost as sad as Robbie Deans.
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 5:54am | Report comment
pretty simple really Stash,
There are better players than Flutey playing the game in New Zealand, he was never going to make the All Blacks hence the reason why he left.
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 5:57am | Report comment
Based on his form and th all blacks current centre pairing, one could imagine how things might have been different……….
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:05am | Report comment
One could also compare the two hemispheres and say one is complacent with mediocrity
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:06am | Report comment
In reality there probably aren’t better 12s than Flutey playing the game in NZ beyond Nonu, and he is a totally different type of player and thus any comparison is redundant. If Sam Tuitopou managed to accumulate 10 or so caps at 12 the mind boggles. The crux of the matter is that Flutey played 9, 10, 12 and 15 for Wellington and the Hurricanes, and that isn’t good for the development of a player. He came to England, played 12 for a few seasons and developed as a player. McGeechan seriously considered starting him at 12 for the Lions prior to his injury, and we saw in his fleeting Lions appearances just how good a footballer he is. I agree with Pajovic. Were he playing in NZ the way he was in England and Europe then his footballing skills would most likely have been considered by Henry. Nonu’s run at 12 has certainly impacted upon the way that NZ play.
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:16am | Report comment
You see thats were I think you are wrong, i personally believe Flutely is made to look that much better than he really is because he is not coming up against too many quality centers in the north. He is made to look so much better by the mediocrity that is the English team at present lets face it every team needs a star and England is surely lacking here at the moment and are desperate to put someone on a pedestal.
Riki wasn’t given the chance to cement a position in New Zealand because most rugby minds did not think he was good enough to take it to that next level. In New Zealand he was only ever going to be a utility player nothing more.
Riki is going to have to a lot more than make the bench and the occassional start for an English team before you will convince many Kiwis let alone our Sanzar partners that he is one of the best centres in the world.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:23am | Report comment
Flutey embarassed Olivier and Fourie. He made them look bad players. That’s good enough for me. He hasn’t had the opportunity to play SH opposition for England since his debut, so it would be foolish to make any wild claims about his ability as a test rugby player.
How is a player made to look good when he’s surrounded by mediocrity? It’s far more logical to suggest that a poor team makes good players look worse.
Who is desperate to put Flutey on a pedestal?
Who has to convince the Sanzar partners anything? The best back play this year has come from European players. The best backs in the world are European.
Who said that Flutey is one of the best centres in the world?
P.S. IF you’re argument had consistency and English rugby was so poor then a players like Sam Tuitopou and Greg Rawlinson would surely be the best players in their league. No?
Viscount Crouchback said | January 15th 2010 @ 9:50am | Report comment
Too facile. An Englishman could equally turn around and argue that Kiwi rugby is mediocre because Mauger hasn’t cut the mustard in the Premiership. The truth is that Flutey has improved immensely since he came to England, just like Mike Catt and (in another sport) Kevin Pietersen.
Indeed, Pietersen is a useful example. He batted at 9 for Natal and even his own school coach didn’t rate him as a batsman but I don’t see too many South Africans doubting his quality nowadays, dodgy present form notwithstanding. They accept that he “trained on” in England, just as Flutey has “trained on”.
Sport isn’t simple. Some players develop later. Some players thrive in a different type of environment. Some players need a certain type of coach to get the best out of them. It’s naive to dismiss a player’s talent because he wasn’t a superstar for the Canes at the age of 24.
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:01am | Report comment
What is naive Viscount is for you to come in here and insinuate I have dismissed Rikis talent.
That couldn’t be further from the truth.
What I have said is he has not played the best in the world yet lets wait and see how he goes up against the likes of the big three southern teams.
Also I said he would not get into the All Blacks and at the same time I have said on a few occasions he is a good player just I personally don’t believe he is good enough to make the All Blacks is it really that hard for people to accept someone having a differing opinion because as of yet it is only the northerners who seem to have an almighty problem with it.
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:21am | Report comment
Very constructive stuff Ora. Please, for the sake of my sanity, please, if at all possible leave ‘hemisphere chat’ out of any thread involving me. Anyways, back to rugby, I agree with Wavell exactly on this one. Flutey was a victim of positional selection. Players develop. They don’t just fall off a production line as the finished article like an action man in a shop. Ample time to develop in a position, the right players supporting you and personal confidence are the holy trinity of the making or the breaking of a player. Circumstance plays a huge part. There is no way Henry wouldn’t have at least considered him based on the form he showed last season.
As an aside, Ora, can you please name your top 3 dynamic centre partnerships in world rugby?
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:04am | Report comment
(Comment deemed poor by Roar community - click to read)
kingplaymaker said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:39am | Report comment
(Comment deemed poor by Roar community - click to read)
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:50am | Report comment
Not sure how you came to that conclusion? I’m not sure what you’re talking about?
Dean Pantio said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:58am | Report comment
Because, Wavell, you stated “In reality there probably aren’t better 12s than Flutey playing the game in NZ beyond Nonu”. McAlister is playing in New Zealand.
PastHisBest said | January 15th 2010 @ 9:24am | Report comment
Yes, very convenient WW. Selective memory?
Grandpabhaile said | January 15th 2010 @ 9:52am | Report comment
Well to answer the question from kingplaymaker – McAlister is possibly worse than Flutey.
Flutey played well for England last season and on the Lions tour. McAlister didn’t set anybody on fire.
On recent play from them both, I’d rate Flutey better. He has made a difference to Brive on his return to them in their last two matches, and was up against some top form players in current champions Perpignan in his first match.
ohtani's jacket said | January 18th 2010 @ 10:25pm | Report comment
Wellington wasn’t a great place for Flutely to play since Umaga, Nonu and Smith all belonged to the same club. He wouldn’t be an All Black at any point if he’d stayed in NZ. As it is, he got the chance to play Test match rugby for another country and I don’t see why anyone would rubbish that. He’s played well for England.
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:11am | Report comment
Let me rephrase that,
Ireland a step above the rest of what europe has to offer at present then again the did only draw with a woeful Australia. france deemed the best europe had come the end of 09 were routinely thrashed by the All Blacks in their last meeting at home in France, I’m not sure how many games Riki Flutely and England won in the November tours but I bet it doesn’t come close to the New Zealanders and their average centre pairing as you infer.
Riki is a good player don’t get me worng however he isn’t good enough to make the All Blacks.
one could argue which hemispheres competition is stronger until the cows come home but I think with the current IRB rankings this only confirms which competition is stonger at present.
Colin N said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:17am | Report comment
“Ireland a step above the rest of what europe has to offer at present then again the did only draw with a woeful Australia.”
But they beat South Africa, as did France, widely regarded as the best team this year,which makes your argument redundant.
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:52am | Report comment
No Colin it does not make my argument redundant at all, it’s no surprise the barmy army has jumped all over this like a little boys club at all. I have said Riki is a good player however he has not been tested by the best and it is ludicrous to even suggest he would walk into an AB side who absolutely hammered France who as yourself have stated were regarded as the best team in Europe come years end.
There are some very good 12s who are eligible for the All blacks and Riki is hardly a shoe in.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:17am | Report comment
Ireland and France has absolutely nothing to do with Riki Flutey. Riki Flutey didn’t play in the AIs. That Dan Carter and Donald played 10-12 during the 3N and that Ellison was seriously considered suggests that there has been a problem with the 12 slot since the departures of McAlister and Mauger. Rugby fans know that Henry preferred an intelligent footballer at 12. Flutey is an intelligent footballing 12. What does that have to do with Ireland and France? What does the form of NZ have to do with Nonu? What does Ireland drawing with Australia have to do with that?
One could argue about the hemispheres but one doesn’t care too as the subject is boring and totally and completely irrelevant to the discussion. It seems that you are instigating that old chestnut. Next you’ll tell us that Ireland has never ever beaten NZ.
pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:31am | Report comment
(Ahem – he said jumping in from stage left….)
Surely you mean NZ has failed to beat Ireland all of the time?
Be at ease, all England fans. Your time has come in 2010.
I can confidently predict Johnson is going to be knighted by the end of this Six Nations as they take home the Championship in swaggering style having defeated Les Bleus in front of their home fans in a final crunch match.
Johnson has enough players available to him – good ones – to do the job. That’s who I’m putting my money on. I also have a small wager in place that Borthwick will not stay as captain.
France are going to be toughing it out with them for top spot – Lievremont needs to bring home the bacon in France.
Both coaches are the ones most under pressure to deliver.
Kidney should have other priorities this year, in my view. He needs for Ireland to have a good Six Nations on the back of good performances by the provinces in Magners, Amlin and Heinken. But he also needs to develop a few players in the squad for WC 11, and if that comes at a cost of losing a 6N match or two, so be it.
Ireland need to win three away games before the Autumn Internationals – France, Australia and New Zealand – and I think that should be the main target for this year alongside the development of some of the younger/newer players.
Unlikely to be a Grand Slam this year, I think. There’ll be games taken off each other, and it’ll be settled on points. It may come down to how many England, France, and possibly Ireland, can put past Italy, Scotland and Wales. The BBC have got it right in putting ‘Le Crunch’ as the final match of the series.
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:41am | Report comment
It is very relevant because it shows the quality of 12s Flutely is measuring himself against week in week out,
As for the suppossed problem NZ has with the 12 spot I see it more so as Henry and co developing some stronger players in that position that are of equal or not better quality than Nonu. Dan carter was never seriously going to be a 12 and only a fool would even think he was. Ellison is a young and up and coming player who has a long way to go in his career and is a more worthwhile investment and the kid has class a few more seasons and he will be worldclass. Macca come back somewhat underdone and then had a 3 month layoff inbetween seasons. When he is onsong even he would no doubt keep Flutey out of a AB team. Mauger it seems is destined for a return to NZ rugby but don’t let that get in the way of your thinking. Are you now going to tell me that you believe Flutey to be a step above him also……
Like I said Flutey is a good player but unfortunately I do not believe him to be as good as some of you like to think he is.
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:31am | Report comment
Ora, ‘France routinely thrashed by NZ’? Do you follow ties between these sides? Didn’t France beat NZ in NZ this season? Did you see France’s performance v the Boks?
Had you watched the ‘mediocrity that is the English team’ (no arguements there btw) this Autumn, you would realise that Flutey did not feature. Did you follow any of the Autumn tests?
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:49am | Report comment
(Comment deemed poor by Roar community - click to read)
pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:56am | Report comment
“11 changes to their match day 22″ line up against France?
Nonsense – they put out the best team they had available and many of that side went on to play in the Three Nations. This kind of piffle excuse-making wouldn’t be tolerated from other sides.
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:07am | Report comment
(Comment deemed poor by Roar community - click to read)
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:15am | Report comment
Ora, I am still waiting with baited breath for your top 5 centre pairings in world rugby! Dazzle me!
As for your Barmy Army assertions, I am not English. I’m guessing your an Antipode though? Kiwi??? Am I warm? Or red hot? Hot as in as hot as the next ’second string’ 11’s centre pairing that Henry will unleash on a furtive France next time round?
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:28am | Report comment
Pajovic like I said how about you name yours.
I have never questioned any pairing in this thread nor have I even tried to?
What I have done is said Flutey would not walk into the ABs like you and the Northern boys club like to think he would.
So how that has in turned lead to pairings only you can answer yourself. To be honest i have no interest my only interest is and only is the fact that you and a some northerners seem to think Flutey is top of the class when he has barely even played an international in recent times
pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:32am | Report comment
That’s still nonsense. There wasn’t 11 changes to their match day 22. They were without a few key players, same as the French. It happens in rugby. It was their first match against a tired French side. That evened it up. And they came good in the second match. Get over it, they lost fair and square to a better team.
And France weren’t “routinely thrashed at home” either by NZ in the Autumn. France don’t get routinely thrashed at home. Which makes the NZ win all the more compelling.
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:49am | Report comment
(Comment deemed poor by Roar community - click to read)
Pajovic said | January 14th 2010 @ 8:19pm | Report comment
Ideally, from that squad I would like to see a team of:
Sheridan
Hartley
Wilson
Shaw
Lawes
Croft
Moody
Haskell
Care
Wilkinson
Cueto
Flutey
Tait
Ashton
Armitage
which i think is pretty decent and at least has some dynamism up front and some pace in the backs
Unfortunately we all know Johnson will play:
Payne (as Sheridan is injured)
Hartley
Wilson
Shaw
Borthwick
Croft
Moody
Easter
P.Hodgson
Wilkinson
Cueto
Flutey
Hipkiss
Banahan
Armitage
Payne has to be the worst player in the 6 nations and Banahan, Hipkiss and Hodgson must be the three slowest backs in international rugby. Banahan has the turning circle of Emile Heskey.
Just you wait, England will have at least 3 or 4 more injuries before it starts. If either Shaw or Moody go down then England are completely as sea.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 14th 2010 @ 11:16pm | Report comment
I think Hodgson is a good 9, Pajovic. He commands the pack well, and is technically accurate. Care has looked bewildered this season at Harlequins.
I agree about Shaw, but have hopes that Lawes can grow into his position. I don’t agree about Moody. England controlled the ruck contest last 6N with Worsley at 7, so a natural 7 is not a necessity. France, Italy and Ireland don’t play natural 7s, so were Worsley (injured) and Moody unavailable then I’d consider playing Haskell there.
Banahan is perhaps one of the worst test wingers ever. It doesn’t help when you have people like Stuart Barnes supporting his inclusion as the new Jamie Roberts.
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 12:12am | Report comment
Interesting points Wavell, however I don’t agree with your point about Care, he makes loads of breaks and causes problems when I see him play for Quins and his tactical kicking is top drawer for a scrum half.
Hodgson is a solid club player, nothing more, he is never an international scrum half. Just being a “good talker” shouldn’t get you in the england team, especially when we have got a load of exciting, attacking young scrum halves like Care, Simpson, Youngs and Young coming through. Same goes for Ellis who has completely lost his running game since his knee injury
I rate Haskell but he is not in the same league as Moody as a 7. He was England’s best player in the autumn by about 3 country miles. Along with Shaw, Sheridan and maybe Flutey, Englands only world class players. Sounds like he is considering dropping Borthwick for Lawes though because has not confirmed the captaincy and also sounds like he may play Tait at 13 which is very good news. All we need now is for Tim Payne to get injured and England could be in business, whih would make for an interesting 6 nations Series.
I still fancy Ireland though.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 12:42am | Report comment
I think Care poses a threat around the ruck, and he is inventive with the ball, but he is still making the same error of judgements and giving away the same silly penalties that he was giving away two years ago, Pajovic. I think that Hodgson is sometimes unfairly seen as a solid player simply because he does so many things well. He is also a good breaking scrum half, like Care, and with a pack that is comparatively inexperienced, England, IMO, could do with a player to cajole and galvanise the big men into the right areas. I think his consistent form at least entitles him to a run of games. Simpson and Youngs etc may be the long-term options but I don’t think they’re the right men for now whereas I really do think that Hodgson could organise the way England play like the way he does at London Irish.
I wouldn’t compare Haskell and Moody as 7s, Pajovic, but I don’t think a groundhog type of 7 is a necessity in the 6N. The SH breeds those players but the 6N doesn’t. Perhaps using him at 7 might negate his dynamism. Also, last season Worsley did a lot of tight work at the ruck that Haskell may not be able to. It’s just a thought and might be useful were England looking to score some tries against Scotland or Italy. The question is whether England could play the way they did last season this season with Moody instead of Worsley. They’re such different players.
I hope that Borthwick is dropped. He’s had a good season in the GP (including totally outplaying Nick Kennedy), but surely he is one of the least athletic second rows currently playing test rugby?! He’s small, underpowered and insists on carrying the ball so close to the rucks. Such decision making is perplexing, and it makes me worry about whether his ego is affecting the way England play. I don’t think referees have much of a relationship with him either. However, I’m also not sure whether Lawes is ready for test rugby in the lock position. Stuart Barnes and Stephen Jones recently labelled him as the best second row in the GP, which is patently ridiculous given that he has been playing flanker recently. As much as it pains me to say it Louis Deacon and Steve Borthwick have been the best locks in the GP this season. Geoff Parling too. I would like to see him given an opportunity at some point.
Agree about Payne. Jon Golding has a fabulous work rate but I think he’s injured (?).
Agree about Ireland. They don’t have a fun draw but they are a very, very good outfit.
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 1:38am | Report comment
yeah Golding is good, does a lot of work around the park and can scrummage (i.e. he is the opposite of Payne) but guess what…….. your right……he’s injured!
Borthwick and Deacon are good solid premiership men but neither have the size to play the Botha/Shaw role at international level and neither are even remotely athletic. Parling is the same, not an international. The man to watch out for is James Gaskell at Sale, only 19, is a little light but is still holding his own in the forward slug-fest that is the premiership, will be very good when he fills out a bit.
as for scrum half, you will never convince me that Paul Hodgson is anything other than solid. he might make the odd break now and again for London Irish but only if the game is stretched and there are acres of space, Care can makes breaks from nothing when the game is tight. if England are playing a solid, kicking fly-half like Wilkinson they need to balance it with a creative scrum half. Will really annoy me if we have an era of Paul Hodgson blocking the progress of all the good young scrum halves we have coming through just because he talks a lot in training
Payne vs Hayes at twickenham – the battle of the two worst scrummagers in the 6 nations will be worth the entrance fee alone.
What do you think Wavell? What are the potenially key clashes in the Ireland clash? Can irelnd find a quality front row?
Colin N said | January 15th 2010 @ 4:07am | Report comment
Care said a while back that he had been told to hold back his natural game for England. When he plays for Quins he likes to speed the game up, take quick taps from penalties etc. Sometimes it’s the wrong thing to do and he needs to find a balance, but he’s an exciting player to watch.
When he first came into the England side, he did what he did for Harlequins, but those risks he takes for them hasn’t quite worked for England. He came under heavy fire for this and thus was told to tone his game down. He’s looked a shadow of the player since and now hardly ever looks for the gap in England colours. Hodgson’s a better organiser and passer and gets the ball out quicker than Care, which means he’s more suited for the role for now, unless Care is allowed to let loose.
I also think the other Hodgson (Charlie) should have been called up to the elite squad, but there you go, you can’t have everything.
Ian Noble said | January 15th 2010 @ 9:23am | Report comment
P
Care plays a high tempo game as do Quins and with Evans at fly half it dovetails neatly. The problem with Wilko is that a high tempo game is a problem for him, he is not a natural runner and makes very few if any dynamic breaks. He is an excellent game manager, although I feel his kicking out of hand is inconsistent. MJ has to decide whether to go for a high tempo game or go for a predominately conservative game plan and play the %s. I suspect expendiency will win out and he will go for the %s because although they talk about the expansive game in the limited time available it is virtually impossible to coach an expansive game when players come together so infrequently particularly as the AIs were so disrupted by injury to key players. I suspect that MJ will go for Hodgson and Wilko with Care and Flood on the bench.
Personally I would go for Care and Flood from the outset with the Care/Easter fulcrum at the base of the scrum being key to controlling the ball out of the scrum where a good understanding between 8 and 9 is so critical. Why Flood because I think he would be on the same wavelength as Care and would be faster and more creative and anticipate Care’s sniping around the fringes with the ability to give Flutey the space to open up to Moyne, Ashton/Cueto, Tait and Armitage, all flyers if given the space.
I would leave Gaskell to develope in the U20s, there are a number of potentially exciting young players in this squad who are already playing in the GP. They need to play together as they will provide the back bone of future England squads. It is his first season in the GP and as proven elsewhere he may suffer from 2nd season syndrome. Lawes seems to have made the leap forward from U20’s but it is pretty rare phenomenon.
Viscount Crouchback said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:03am | Report comment
I couldn’t agree more with WW. Danny Care is a lamentable player. In fact, he is one of the worst scrum halves I’ve ever seen in an England shirt and epitomises the new breed of player who are picked solely for their physical qualities – in Care’s case, speed – and have no rugby nous whatever.
It’s not enough to be able to run fast. To play 9, you need some rugby intuition. You need to know when to rumble on in the tight and when to go wide; when to make a break and when to play safe; when to tap and when to slow down and take the pen. Care hasn’t a clue about any of these things. He simply cannot manage a game. His forwards bully him when he should be bullying his forwards. And he’s so, so slow to remove the ball from the base of the ruck.
Hodgson is no great shakes, but he’s a proper scrum half. Let him occupy the shirt until one of Simpson, Young and Youngs demands inclusion.
Billo said | January 14th 2010 @ 8:53pm | Report comment
Hape has had a fine season for Bath, and looks like one of the few inside centres in the Guinness Premiership who can combine sleight of hand and foot to create space, which is at a premium in the competition this season.
Ian Noble said | January 14th 2010 @ 10:37pm | Report comment
Billo
I agree with you. When Bath played Quins I thought he was the best Bath player, not only did he create space for the rest of the back line but he has a lovely pair of hands and balance and was always a threat. I also like his attitude. He terminated his contract with the Bulls and spent the majority of his first 18 months playing in Bath’s second team and on the bench learning the game. His promotion direct in the top squad is a surprise but I suppose bearing in mind his age he needs to be tested quickly at the highest level. There is plenty of time for Waldouck, Turner-Hall et al to gain more experience at club level and in the Saxons.
Sam T
I have no problem with players born outside England playing for the national side. Indeed the majority of the other major rugby nations do not show any reluctance in introducing players born outside their country, of which the AB’s and the W’s are prime examples.
ShaghaiDoc said | January 15th 2010 @ 12:29am | Report comment
(Comment deemed poor by Roar community - click to read)
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 2:05am | Report comment
Pajovic,
Neither Deacon or Borthwick are test quality but I feel sorry for Johnson that they have been the best performing locks in the GP. You can’t ignore both of them, but selection of either – even if they don’t make the match day 22 – still elicits criticism. Aside from those two I really think Parling could be a test 5. He’s athletic, always looks to keep the ball alive and is playing in one of the best packs in Europe. Gaskell is another good player, but he’s like a young Tom Croft – he makes no impression at the ruck whatsoever. At least he’s getting regular game time at such a young age.
I don’t think you get to be such an important cog in the London Irish machine by simply being solid, Pajovic. I think he has a lot about him and I think Care is overrated. We’ll just have to agree to disagree until the 6N finishes, I suppose.
I think Ireland could offer a quality front row. Healy is still a young man and could be the new Popplewell. Hayes is a goer but is coming to the end so why not give Mike Ross a go? He’s a pure scrummager, as is Rory Best. I think the real problem with the Irish scrum is that they lack big locks. O’Callaghan is basically a flanker. If Ireland could unearth a huge 4 lock then they’d be in business. After what happened during the SA game I’d be surprised if Ireland can manage to avoid some real scrum drubbings this 6N. Horan and Hayes always managed to find a way but propping is like heavyweight boxing. One day you wake up and it’s gone.
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 3:12am | Report comment
Gaskell is only 19, which is very young to be playing in the premiership and ridiculously young to be playing second row in the premiership – although i don’t think he’d be playing if he made “no impression at the ruck whatsoever” – he’ll end up about two or three stones heavier than he is now by the time he is 22 so not worried about that at all.
Parling is a journeyman in his late 20s who has spent most of his career playing flanker for Newcastle. Hopefully will be Shaw and Lawes through to the next world cup then Lawes and Gaskell after that, maybe throw in Attwood or Blaze as alternatives in the “enforcer” role.
I think Ireland will win it again but I think they might lose a game, if England play Payne and Wilson Ireland’ scrum will be fine against England but they could be in trouble in the other games, especially with Healy up against Castrogiovanni, Euan Murray, Adam Jones and Sylvain Marconnet. I think England should go horses for courses and play Flatman, Thompson and White against Ireland and just tear their scrum apart, that is their only chance
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 3:36am | Report comment
Tom Croft was playing and making no impression at the ruck when he was younger, and he still has the same problem. Watch him and Gaskell closely next time you get a chance. Croft gets into excellent positions but is always either held or simply pushed off the ball. Just because Gaskell is starting doesn’t mean that he is not bad at rucking, counter rucking and ball stealing etc.
I don’t agree that Parling is a journeyman. He was an excellent performer at Newcastle, was then recruited by the Tigers (who generally get their recruitment spot on) and has consistently been one of the best Tigers every week. He has usurped Ben Kay and is a key member of one of the best packs in Europe. He has soft hands, runs good lines and tries to keep the ball alive. He has the best carrying and linking game out of all the GP locks. The only other lock who carries like he does is James Hudson.
Wilson is an erratic scrummager but he could be very good, IMO. As soon as he came on versus NZ the scrum improved significantly. Plus he’s in a good forward environment at Bath. I think he’ll be a good test player, and would be inclined to play him ahead of White. With Hartley/ Mears, Wilson, Shaw/Lawes, Croft and Haskell England could field the most dynamic pack in the 6N, so why upset that balance with White? I am a fan of White but with the current problem of inconsistent scrum management by the refs I think it’s a big risk selecting a player simply to scrummage. Added to that White won’t have played (if he’s fit) by that point. Flatman is worth a thought but he seems so injury prone. I feel that if England get their best xv on the field then they have a good chance against Ireland. Ireland are a very good team, but I don’t think they have the all round xv to rout the better teams, thus if England do the right things and play accurately and with pace then they have a reasonable chance, IMO. I’m not sure if Healy is the weak link for Ireland. He’s had some strong tight games for Leinster whose pack has really improved recently. I see the Munster players as being the weak link come scrum time. However, the Munster locks will be pushing the front row, so I suppose it’s irrelevant if I think Healy is or isn’t to blame – he still won’t be getting the right support from behind.
I really don’t believe in the role of the ‘enforcer’. Botha is an enforcer in the traditional sense, but he is severely limited as a player and struggles when presented with more talented players, like Shaw, who are just as physical. I would hope that Lawes could grow into Shaw’s role: setting up rucks or mauls in midfield, slowing down the ruck contest, slowing down opposition mauls and generally getting about as Shaw does. Lawes is just as athletic and dynamic, he just needs an accelerated rugby education. He doesn’t need to be part of a team that is content to set up mini ruck after mini ruck down the blindside.
Colin N said | January 15th 2010 @ 4:00am | Report comment
“Tom Croft was playing and making no impression at the ruck when he was younger, and he still has the same problem. Watch him and Gaskell closely next time you get a chance”
You’re absolutely correct about Gaskell and playing him at six hasn’t really worked. With Koyamaibole usually playing 8, it’s meant we haven’t really had a workhouse to get quick ball at the breakdown and smash people out of the way. The other problem Sale have had is the lineout and that means Gaskell has to play. But with Carl Fearns coming in at six (the most underrated performer this season), Sale have had a more balanced pack.
Gaskell’s time will come, but I’m concerned about whether Lawes will develop into a Shaw type player. There are times when he roams around the field smashing the ball up, showing good hands and looking like the complete player, like against Munster. But other times he looks completely ineffective.
What team would you like Johnson to put out Wavell/KO?
Viscount Crouchback said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:13am | Report comment
Good analysis, WW, but two points on Gaskell: (1) He’s only 19. Croft is about 23. Paul O’Connell was also whippet thin at the age of 19 and filled out nicely (albeit he’s no Simon Shaw). I’m pretty sure Gaskell can do likewise if he has to. (2) More importantly, imo, Gaskell is being groomed as a classic middle jumper of the Matfield variety. He doesn’t need to become a big brutish specimen. Indeed, Matfield is very thin, makes very little impact at the ruck, and plays more as a “back four” lock. In fact, he apparently keeps his weight down deliberately because he wants to remain easy to lift.
Gaskell will be fine so long as he plays alongside some beef at 4.
Ian Noble said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:37am | Report comment
VC
First of all Gaskell, as Kingsley Jones has suggested he would like to take Gaskell out of the firing line and give time to develope. He will bulk out but as you say it must be controlled as if he becomes a gym monkey it will probably adversely affect his speed around the park.
On Danny Care, I am a Quins STH and therefore bias, but as a 23 year old he has proven to be one of Quins most potent forces. He continually outplays his opposite number including Youngs and Simpson, the problem with Quins is that the rest of the back line have not been playing too well partly because the loss of Turner-Hall through injury has been significant. On the England front, he needs more game time and a fly half who complements his style of play, hence the preference for Flood or even Geharty over Wilko. Your comment is attuned to the safe old fashioned England, no adventure, kick to the corners et al…..
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:46pm | Report comment
Indeed, Gaskell is a young man, VC, but I would rather he was kept away from representative honours until he either fills out or learns a few ruck secrets. I have noticed that Gaskell is back with the age group sides, which led me to wonder whether or not that would be a good idea. Younger players that excel at a higher level sometimes fall back upon bad habits when reintroduced to rugby with their peers. Obviously with the right coaching age group rugby can be hugely important. It’s certainly worth a thought.
Regarding your point about Gaskell playing with a lump, I agree, which also led me to wonder whether Croft needs such a presence in the back row – Worsley, Easter etc. The worry that I have about Croft is that he doesn’t seem a 5 or a 6 yet. He doesn’t do what a 6 traditionally does. Hence he looked good last 6N when a 6 was playing 7.
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:26pm | Report comment
Agreed re Gaskell, he should keep playing at senior level, he needs to don about 3 stone before he will be the finished article but at 19 he has time.
‘Younger players that excel at a higher level sometimes fall back upon bad habits when reintroduced to rugby with their peers’.
Completely true. Gaskell should be out of his comfort zone. It’s the only way he will develop. Protect him sure, but dont send him back down.
Speaking of backrows, I can’t wait to see what sort of beast Ferris will be this year. He blew me away on the Lions tour and is awesome for Ulster.
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:16pm | Report comment
I reckon we are putting a little too much emphaisis on the GP, (myself included). International rugby is a different ball game to the GP, particularly in the forwards – you need extra physicality, you need to be a tough **** and you also need to be dynamic because the pace is much quicker than the GP. I stick by my assertions that but Parling and Hudson don’t have it, Lawes and Gaskell potentially do, especially Lawes – he has got a real nasty streak in him, from the Dylan Hartley school of diplomacy.
I reckon England might do well in this 6 nations. Wales lack of form has been wrangling with me and well, I guess I have been alerted to their alarming lack of cover or lack of a squad. They appear to have the kind of depth Ireland had in 2003. I.e. one good first team with little or no cover. France are as of yet an unknown quantity . Realistically, England seem to have a sort of hoodoo over France and can beat them reasonably regularly. I think England, with a decent team, like the one I picked (IMO), will beat Wales, (remember how close a truely dreadful England team ran them last year) in Cardiff, they will beat Scotland and I expect Italy to be total walkovers this year. Dreadful. Flutey embarrassed Olivier and Fourie. He made them That’s good enough for me. He hasn’t had the chance to play SH opposition for England since his debut, but he should have a field day beside the right centre partner against the wearer 6 nations outfits. Not sure if Tait will be up to it, he’s hardly the kind of support that Flutey had in SA but let’s see. It is worth a shot. Flood at ten whould make things a little more interesting and I might slot him in instead of Wilco. Good call lads. Can’t see Johnno diching Wilco though. No chance.
This 6 nations really is a ‘Make or Break’ 6 nations. Ireland really need to sort out their scrum and blood a few more players and settle on a back row. They need to target a win in Paris and away wins in Aus and NZ. That has to be their main objective. But obviously the championship is important too, but they need to take their game to the next level. Wales, will confirm their implosion or not, it’s back to square one for them as Gatland said. They are too reliant on a perennially absent Byrne and a fading Williams who has no real backline support. Martin Willimas although creative is just not abrasive enough at the breakdown. Gatland and Edwards under a lot of pressure. Not looking like such an awesome coaching team right now, maybe they will prove me wrong. Perhaps now is the time to be imploding and not in 2011? Scotland need to win against either England or Wales. France under Lievrement have a lot to prove. Consistency is required but this will be a bi*ch of a 6 nations to achieve that in.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 4:17am | Report comment
Agreed about Lawes. You can tell that he hasn’t grown up playing rugby. Agreed about Fearns too.
From fit players in the EPS squad I’d like to see this team:
1. Payne, 2. Hartley, 3. Wilson, 4. Shaw, 5. Lawes, 6. Croft, 7. Moody, 8. Easter,
9. Hodgson, 10. Flood, 11. Monye, 12. Flutey, 13. Tait, 14. Ashton, 15. D. Armitage.
16. Mears, 17. White, 18. Haskell, 19. S. Armitage, 20. Care, 21. Wilkinson, 22. Foden.
I still have doubts about Hartley and Lawes, but I’d rather England picked a more athletic, dynamic pack. With Shaw and Lawes Croft has to play to run the lineout, but I think Haskell provides great dynamism from the bench. Croft can also cover 5 so I’d like to see S. Armitage again, plus I like the idea of two sevens playing at the same time, late into the match (Moody and Armitage). I don’t see the point in putting Hape on the bench, I’d rather he started one of the lesser matches – preferably Italy. My 10 preference is for Flood because he attacks the line. Perhaps further down the line he and Hape could play off each other. Hipkiss is too limited and despite some hit and miss form Tait deserves a run of games simply to prove himself. In an ideal world I’d like to see Golding, Cole, Parling/Hudson involved either from the bench or starting. With the core of the England team returning I think Johnson has an ideal opportunity to mix and match the younger players into the 22. What about you, Colin?
Colin N said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:11am | Report comment
I would like to have seen Golding if fit and if White is replaced, hopefully Cole will come into the squad as cover. Ideally my lock paring would be Shaw and Lawes, but I can see Borthwick being there. In the back-row I would like to see Haskell, Moody and Easter. I don’t believe Croft is in great form and it could diminish the lineout without him, but Hartley’s a good thrower, Shaw’s a good front jumper and both Lawes and Easter are good operators.
I too would like to see Flood, the second most underrated performer (behind Fearns
) in England. Apart from standing flat, he has good footwork and good distribution. He’s not the quickest but neither are many fly-halves. His link-up with Flutey in the last six nations was the key behind England’s good form IMO.
If Care is allowed to play the way he does for Quins then he would be in my side. If not then I would have Hodgson.
Providing Flutey’s playing well, I would have him in the team alongside Tait. The two best attacking and defensive centres in the squad. Tait’s also been in good form this season. The wingers pick themselves, Ashton’s too inexperiences and Banahan is yet to convince, so it’s Cueto and Monye. I’m unlike many people in the sense I do think there is potential in Banahan, but he hasn’t shown it at international level yet.
Full-backs quite easy – Armitage, Foden on the bench, maybe starting against Italy.
I’m also slightly disappointed that Neil Briggs hasn’t been named in the Saxons squad. He’s been the form hooker in the GP recently. However, there are a couple of weaknesses in his game that need addresing, but I think they’re minor ones.
so:
1. Payne
2. Hartley
3. Wilson.
4. Shaw
5. Lawes
6. Haskell
7. Moody
8. Easter
9. Care/Hodgson
10. Flood
11. Monye
12. Flutey
13. Tait
14. Cueto
15. Armitage
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:31am | Report comment
Oh yeah… I forgot about Cueto. Pencil him at 14 for me.
Croft hasn’t been that great (prior to his injury), but then I don’t think he was ever that sensational at club level. He does some things very well and is a good athlete but he’s never set the domestic scene alight. I would always pick him over Haskell, however, as Haskell offers excellent impact from the bench but Croft wouldn’t, and I think Croft always has to be in the 22. I’d rather have a player like Croft who could spend the first half contesting re-starts and lineouts (for a man of his ability I rarely see Croft challenging re-starts), and then bring Haskell on. Perhaps to that extent I’d start Wilkinson and look for stability. I’m not sure..
I overlooked the absence of Briggs. He’s worth a punt. I think that Webber is massively overrated.
Colin N said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:42am | Report comment
Whenever I see Webber he doesn’t play very well, but I only ever see him on the TV. He’s a good thrower (I think) and is powerful, but doesn’t have the all round game of Briggs, but I am biased.
I’m also watching the Saracens – Toulon and the French side must feel the world is against them. They’re down to 13 men and Saracens are still bereft of attacking ideas.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:47am | Report comment
The Wasps lineout creaks a lot but whether that is solely down to Webber..? Incidentally, the team with the most lost lineouts is … Sale Sharks. News to me. My main issue with Webber is that he’s hyped as a great carrier, but he isn’t. Neither is Hartley, and he receives the same praise. It’s as if both players have read their press and feel the need to try and overdo what they have been praised for, or perhaps they simply think they’re more powerful than they are. Simply put neither is a punishing carrier in the mould of a Du Plessis or Szarzewski. Both players have soft hands so I’d rather see off-loading than slupming into a defender at speed. Briggs is a far better all round scavenger than the pair.
Saracens are horrible. They’re going to get so many tunings during the warmer months.
Colin N said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:55am | Report comment
Wasps don’t particularly have good lifters or jumpers, which is needless to say a huge problem.
In regards to their carrying ability is you’ve got to ask yourself whether Webbar could do what Briggs did twice against Harlequins recently and the answer is probably no. That slight problem Briggs has is his scrummaging
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:49pm | Report comment
Watched Toulon v Sarries last night and thought Jonny played pretty well, plays a lot flatter for Toulon, and I think Flood is a bit flaky. Jonny’s defence asks a lot of other teams because it cuts off one of the main points of attack. The problem in the autumn wasn’t Jonny, it was that the gameplan was obviously for him to sit back in the pocket and either kick or go wide early rather than standing flat and get people across the gain line. That is what it boils down to really, no matter which players we put out there, our coaching is a disaster. Every single player in the england squad plays better for their clubs. Saying that I’m still undecided over number 10.
I am a massive fan of Flutey, him coming back will make a big difference and England have to go with Tait alongside him. Hipkiss just runs into brick walls all day and gets nowhere. I think Tait has got it all, he just needs a run of games at centre. The supposed question marks over his defence are a complete myth, i don’t think i’ve seen him miss a tackle for about 3 seasons and apparently he has the best strength to weight ratio in the england squad. Hape at outside centre could be an interesting leftfield pick but no way Johnno will have the b*lls to pick him.
Hard to say with Wales, they were missing Phillips, Byrne and Adam Jones in the autumn so will make a big difference if those 3 are back. Don’t think they will have a total shocker but I quite fancy England to beat them in the first game. This will set up a delicious encounter a Twickenham against the Irish. On paper, Ireland should win the grand slam again but either England or France are capable of beating them on a good day, esp if Ireland start sluggishly. Also, Ireland desperately need to sort their scrum out before the world cup. What is imperative is that we see what Cronin can do in the big games. He committed to Connacht for another season last week. His throwing is excellent and his scrummaging is solid too. I just need to see a viable alternative to Best as a replacement hooker for Flan. Likewise, can Court really do it. He was great against Munster in Ravenhill 2 weeks ago, but that was a weakened pack. His whole strength is that he can play tight and loose. Can Ross rediscover his form having left the GP also, can Healy transfer his excellent HC scrummaging to the International scene? The back row will be fine. O’Brien is another brilliant find. It’s getting seriously competitive there.
I’m really looking forward to the 6N starting, just praying for some timely injuries to Payne, Deacon, Hipkiss and Banahan to ensure that Johnson doesn’t completely mess it up.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 16th 2010 @ 12:52am | Report comment
I don’t think Wilkinson has the attacking instincts to lead England forward. Last night his first option of the match was to drop for goal from 30 metres plus. It reminded me of the Autumn when he kept looking for the drop, and at one stage v NZ didn’t even notice an overlap so fixed was he on kicking a drop goal. The key point was that Wilkinson didn’t even look. Perhaps he was unhappy about what he had outside him in the AIs, but generally he is first and foremost a conservative player, IMO, and I believe that French rugby breeds that conservatism. However, it is necessary to have alternative options and Wilkinson is a better option than Goode. Were I more sure of his ability to lead a line then I’d definitely make him captain over Bad News Borthwick.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:39am | Report comment
Pothale,
all of the time that Ireland has played NZ, Ireland has beaten NZ none of the time, every time. You see? HemJ wuz here!
I don’t think there’ll be a GS, and hopefully Borthwick won’t be up to his old tricks (annoying referees, being slow & offering poor banter to the opposition, “Yeah, take some time. You look like you need it!”). Johnson is at the Saracens game tonight though.
As it happens, Pajovic’s comment that England would be stuffed without Shaw or Moody got me thinking about other nations which led me to consider that Ireland really need some more depth in certain positions (something that Johnson said he was after this 6N). Ironically O’Driscoll’s absence might not be felt as much as players like Wallace or Hayes. Going into an important season there is no real back up to 3 or 7 (or O’Callaghan or O’Connell as I write this). Kidney has a good squad of players but the replacements are so inexperienced. So, IMO, Ireland should take the tournament seriously, but I completely agree that their eye should be on the big prize.
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:56am | Report comment
Interesting selections lads. It will definitley be interesting watch things unfold in the coming months. Although I still stick with my assertation that Johnno will pick the usual stodge. Like I said earlier, Payne has to be the worst player in the 6 nations and Banahan, Hipkiss and Hodgson are three slowest backs in international rugby. I still fancy Ireland to win the championship, but in a series where probably everyone (esp given Irelands fixture schedule) will lose a game, then Ireland’s inability to really bury the bigger teams might catch them on points difference, who might catch them, England France?. I really have no idea what sort of Wales team will turn up next month. I really just have no idea……
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:07am | Report comment
The bigger problem, Pajovic, is that there is nobody beyond Payne (fit anyhow).
I would hope that Hipkiss doesn’t get a go. Johnson has spoken of it being the right time for Tait to assert himself in the 13 jersey, so hopefully he’ll have five opportunities.
I’m going to make a bold predicition that Banahan doesn’t start – if only for my own sanity.
How France goes is an intriguing question. No Barcella or Traille, and Lievremont loves Traille’s big boot. Mermoz is injured too, so who knows?
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:40am | Report comment
That’s true re: Payne. Tragic but true nontheless. A fit Sheridan would be nice I agree with the Banahan comment, he was on the cover of Rugby World there a few episodes back and I nearly choked on my airline sambo when read the write up. Somethings I will never understand. I’m enjoying Pothale’s new ELV. And who said the NH boys were all against them?
I’m still unsure about Court, he just blows so hot and cold, he was brilliant against Munster in Ravenhill, but, that was a much weakend munster pack. This 6 nations will make and break a lot of players. I agree with Pothale that Ross seems to be losing form and well, as much as I think. I like Healy and he makes some good plays and has a flankeresque quality about him, but once again, he seems to scrummage like a flanker too sometimes which is a worry!! Still, that can be worked on.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:08am | Report comment
Banahan could probably score all the tries in the world against Italy but the Australians just laughed at him. He’s actually slower than Emile Heskey. Mark Lawrenson is probably quicker than him.
Court blowing hot and cold? An Australian prop
The Make or Break 6N. I like that statement. I agree.
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:54pm | Report comment
What about Flatman for Payne? I had forgotten about him.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:48pm | Report comment
Injury prone. I don’t think Johnson trusts him, which is ironic given that he tends to get more game time than David Barnes at Bath.
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:39pm | Report comment
he had a terrible few years with injury but has been ok the last 2 seasons. he is infinitely better than David Barnes. Nick Wood at Gloucester is even worse. Of the young looseheads, Corbisiero and Golding are both very promising but are injured and Matt Mullan is too small so i’d go with Flatman. He is a top class scrummager, if he gets injured then so be it.
Basically my view is “anyone but Tim Payne”
Just got to pray that Sheridan recovers, he had to have a complete shoulder reconstruction – apparently would have been career ending a few years ago
on the plus side though, Englands crop of props is looking very good post world cup – Sheridan, Golding, Corbisiero, Mullan, Cole, Wilson plus Matt Stevens to come back. Add to that the fact that Hartley is only 23 and they are looking strong in the front row for a long time
What’s your long term prognosis for the irish front row i.e. for 2011? Who ill be there and how will it happen?
pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:44am | Report comment
Oh. Ok then.
Though I wouldn’t discount Jennings or O’Brien at 7. I think O’Brien is going to do really well this year at club level – and if he’s given time in the green shirt – at test level.
Hayes is the perennial problem. Court is the front runner cos Buckly just isn’t good enough, and Ross seems to have gone backwards at Leinster.
Could we introduce an innovative Irish ELV for the World Cup – no scrums in your own half?
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:01am | Report comment
Court is a good player. He’s spiteful too. I like that.
O’Brien is worth a shot (McLaughlan too), but the major issues is what type of 7 is more relevant – destructive (H. Brussow) or constructive (M. Williams). A young player like him deserves the entire tournament to test himself, but I can’t see Kidney looking beyond his big guns.
I’m going to enter into an agreement with myself, and you’re more than welcome to join in pothale, Colin, Pajovic etc. I’m going to promise myself that I won’t feed the Hemjay from now on. It’s like eating orange peel. Unecessary and leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:12am | Report comment
Take your point about destructive v constructive though I thought Brussouw played both roles in some of the matches I watched.
O’Brien is hungry and puts himself about – agressively – so probably falls more into the destructive role – but he’s made a few good carries too. If Cheika gives him more time this season, he may turn Kidney’s head. Maybe if Ireland lose to France in the second round, he might decide to get more experimental for the remaining matches.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:58am | Report comment
Yeah, I see what you mean, but I mean in the sense that his first instinct is to slow ball down whearas a player like Williams automatically looks for support to pass the ball to. Do you see what I mean?
Has O’Brien always been a 7, Pothale?
pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:37am | Report comment
Right – I didn’t understand your definition of constructive. Must watch for that in the next match – not sure if he’ll be playing against Brive – I presume Cheika will want to give Jennings as much game time as possible.
O’Brien has played both 6, 7 and 8 – though flanker is the likely position I presume. He’s another GAA player (from Carlow) who played well at minors level, then made the transfer across to rugby, but retained the handling/catching skills he got from football. He was part of the U-20 Grand Slam squad in 2007. He’s only 23 this year, so he’s a bit of growing and learning to do in the role with Gibbs and Kiss.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:52am | Report comment
Jennings could probably go straight into the test team, IMO. I’d forgotten about that sly fellow.
That’s it, maybe I read something about O’Brien previously playing 8 (I read something a while back but can’t for the life of me recall the specifics).
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 9:12pm | Report comment
Party to the agreement.
Ona slightly different note, I think Scotland will do ok, they have got a good pack. Both England and Ireland will struggle against them in the scrum – Payne and Healy up against Euan Murray. Splaaat!
Italy seem to be going backwards, Parisse is out, Bortolami is past it, the Bergamascos aren’t first choice for Stade any more. Apart from Castrogiovanni and a few other decent props they are really going to struggle.
Any views?
Wavell Wakefield said | January 16th 2010 @ 12:42am | Report comment
I’m going to make a prediction about Scotland – their pack will be mauled unless James Hamilton plays in concert with Murray. After the Scotland pack bushwhacked the Springbok pack two seasons ago the general theory is that they have a good scrum, but that theory ignores the fact that Scotland had probably never produced a larger pack than that. With Hamilton absent during the AIs, and with the stick thin Kellock playing behind Moray Low, the Scots were thrown about and their mauling game was almost redundant. Murray will make a difference, of course, but his job will be that much harder if Kellock is chosen to lock the scrum.
Italy have gone backwards at a rate of knots since Mallett took over. They needed a big ideas man, not an insular South African forwards coach.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:56am | Report comment
1. No, HemJ. Ireland drawing with Australia has no relevance to Flutey’s ability whatsoever. None.
2. What players has Henry developed in the 12 jersey? Carter, Ellison, Donald or MacAlister… Do you mean these players, because I haven’t seen any real development there.
3. The Carter/Donald 10-12 split indicates that Henry was unhappy with his options at 12. The argument is, and I repeat myself here, that Henry prefers a footballing 12, and that Nonu’s presence at 12 had seriously stifled the NZ attack. Thus, had Flutey been playing in the way that he had for a few seasons and on the Lions tour then at some point he would have most likely been considered by Henry.
4. Ellison world class? Really? If Henry was solely interested in long-term development then Tom Donnelly would not be wearing an All Black jersey.
5. You didn’t state that Flutey was a good player.
6. Please follow the threads and read 3 for your assessment of the Mauger situation.
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:20am | Report comment
(Comment deemed poor by Roar community - click to read)
Colin N said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:25am | Report comment
“No thats right because they have their eye on a much more talented player in Aaron Mauger and they have always maintained a very close relationship with Aaron since he left NZ. But don’t let that cloud your judgement now”
Actually, Flutey was seen as a very important age grade player in New Zealand, so he kept Mauger out of his favourite position. There was a very interesting story a few months back in Rugby World about Flutey and his checkered career on and off the field.
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:38am | Report comment
Age grade whoopie doo, Its senior rugby where you really make a name for yourself and that is where Aaron mauger really came to fruition and this is what really matters.
Flutey has had a very colourful past there is no denying that one noteable case was the Grevious bodily harm charge back in the early 2000’s
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:54am | Report comment
(Comment deemed poor by Roar community - click to read)
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:57am | Report comment
(Comment deemed poor by Roar community - click to read)
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:06am | Report comment
Ora, what’s wrong with me is that I am in my office, in front of a monitor waiting for comments back on a final version sale putchase agreement on a transaction that has to close tomorrow. I am bored out of my tiny mind. Pre new year, I would probably be outside my office having a cheeky smoke. However new year resolutions dictate that I instead sup on coffee and well, find other things to do. Sadly, I allowed myself to get sucked into a childish tit for tat arguement that ordinarily I would not have done. I feel ashamed and a little dirty I might add.
My final comment is that the rap sheet I listed off there is in fact true. Have a wee google and see.
I am tapping out of this one.
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:08am | Report comment
How is adding something to what another poster stated a tit for tat argument.
Quite frankly all this is is the usual northern suspects who have got their noses out of joint because a Southern has dared question their thinking
Colin N said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:54am | Report comment
You said Mauger is a more talented player. Is he? The fact that Flutey was seen as the best second-five in his group, over Mauger, could suggest he is equally or possibly more talented than Mauger? No?
It’s whether they fulfilled that potential and it’s obvious that it’s taken longer for Flutey to do so.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:30am | Report comment
I didn’t say that you said he was currently world class either. I questioned your opinion that he would go on to be world class. Btw, it isn’t logical to suggest that he will be world class simply because he plays in a single position. The inference you make, of course, is that it has been suggested that Flutey is world class. It hasn’t. It was stated that Flutey improved quickly because he played in one position, obviously because previously he had been moved about a lot. There is a rather large difference.
Ireland drawing with Australia is irrelevant. However, you keep saying that that game somehow represents the status quo of rugby and yet ignore the fact that SA were thrashed by France and easily contained by Ireland. Your point is wildly irrelevant but it would do you no harm to maintain a consistency.
Nobody stated that Flutey would be a shoo in. Please re-read the arguments pertaining to Mauger, and the broader themes. I’m not going to repeat myself.
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:39am | Report comment
Like I said all I have to say to you Wavell is refer to your own point 6
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:55am | Report comment
That makes no sense, just as it didn’t the first time.
Look, Hemjay, I know that there is an anti-NZ bias on the Roar, especially from the NH contributors, I know that NZ aren’t allowed to have injuries, I know that only beating NZ is what counts and I know that people can’t cope when you challenge their perceptions etc. The reason I know all this is because you’ve said it so, so many times before. NZ is the best rugby side in the world, I have no qualms in stating that. In fact I enjoy watching NZ play. Know you know how I feel why don’t you go and ruin another thread, because I can’t politely describe how boring I find your constant tirades on anything involving non-NZ rugby. Everybody engages respectfully and politely with the other NZ contributors like Sam and OJ, so why not take a leaf out of their book.
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:03am | Report comment
(Comment deemed poor by Roar community - click to read)
Zac Zavos said | January 15th 2010 @ 3:56pm | Report comment
Wavell – please stop referring to commenters with other names. Ora is not a previous Roar contributor.
Can I remind you to play the ball not the man in all debates.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:13am | Report comment
Yo Ora,
when NZ played France in NZ:
Woodock, Hore, Tialata, Thorn, Ross, Read, Thomson, Messam, Cowan, Donald, Jane, Nonu, Toe’ava, Rokocoko, Muliaina
when NZ played Australia in the last game of the 3N:
Woodcock, Hore, Tialata, Thorn, Donnelly, Thomson, McCaw, Read, Cowan, Carter, Rokocoko, Nonu, Toe’ava, Jane, Muliaina
See any similarities?
pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:48am | Report comment
Was that the first test line-up WW?
I think this was the second test line-up:
Mils Muliaina (captain), Cory Jane, Conrad Smith, Ma’a Nonu, Joe Rokocoko, Stephen Donald, Jimmy Cowan, Kieran Read, Tanerau Latimer, Jerome Kaino, Isaac Ross, Brad Thorn, Neemia Tialata, Keven Mealamu, Tony Woodcock.
Replacements: Aled de Malmanche, John Afoa, Bryn Evans, George Whitelock, Piri Weepu, Luke McAlister, Isaia Toeava
Muliania, Jane, Cowan, Nonu, Thorn, Ross, Woodcock, Rokococko, Tialata, Read, Toeva – all played in the three matches.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:01am | Report comment
‘Because, Wavell, you stated “In reality there probably aren’t better 12s than Flutey playing the game in NZ beyond Nonu”. McAlister is playing in New Zealand.’
And McAlister didn’t tour Europe for what reason, Dean? Having stated that had Flutey been playing in NZ with the same level of form that he had at test level and in Europe I hadn’t exactly attached a time scale to my comment. In any case, Flutey’s form in Europe was far superior to that of McAlister’s.
Dean Pantio said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:23am | Report comment
“And McAlister didn’t tour Europe for what reason, Dean?”
What are you dribbling about? McAlister toured.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:50pm | Report comment
Slow down, Pantio. Manners cost nothing. My mistake. It was late and I made an error. Regardless, Flutey has been in better form than McAlister. Nice contribution, however, Dean. Thanks man.
pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:23am | Report comment
Is it my imagination or has the site just been given a voting system on people’s posts?
This could get interesting. If a tit for tat breaks out, there’ll be nothing left for people to read.
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:26am | Report comment
Yeah, I just saw that too. I also just cheered the above observation which further confirmed out suspicions.
pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:40am | Report comment
Well naturally, I’d expect all my observations to be cheered by everyone, Pajo.
Zac Zavos said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:32am | Report comment
Pothale – correct, we’ve implemented cheers and boos for comments.
Comments which are deemed ‘poor’ by the crowd will be hidden (though viewable with a click). Good quality comments will be lifted visually. This will hopefully allow the crowd to stop flames and thread hijacking and further bring out what The Roar is all about: high quality, respectful sports opinion and debate.
As always, please send us your feedback using the contact form.
cheers, Zac
The Roar
pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:43am | Report comment
Thanks Zac for the info. Interesting addition.
At what point do they get hidden? When they hit a certain number of ‘poor’ clicks?
And what does ‘lifted visually’ mean when it’s at home? Highlighted? Gold stars?
PastHisBest said | January 15th 2010 @ 9:48am | Report comment
“though viewable with a click”
How Zac?
Zac Zavos said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:00am | Report comment
It will read: “(Comment deemed poor by Roar community – click to read)” and this will happen once a certain number of unique readers mark it down. It will be a high enough threshold to stop a few guys controlling conversations.
The goal is to bury poor quality comments and I think The Roar’s community will enforce it well.
Jannerboyuk said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:08am | Report comment
Bloody hell – you cant be serious!
Matt said | January 15th 2010 @ 9:02am | Report comment
To move slightly away from the hemisphere debate (and hopefully not into a RL/RU one), it’s interesting to see Hape make the team from having so little Union experience. I don’t know that much about his history and whether he played any union in NZ, but I do find it somewhat remarkable that he’s made the England side in what is quite a difficult position to master.
One only has to think back to the miserable performances of Tamana Tahu to see how a league convert can potentially be a fish out of water in the Union midfield. Ashton’s selection as a winger isn’t quite so surprising to me. From the few viewings I’ve seen of him on TV (from way down here in NZ where GP coverage is limited to the Rugby Channel and Internet) Ashton seems to have a great positonal sense in attack (not so much defensively yet) and has some great dynamism about him. League player can convert well to the wing (Robinson, Tuquiri, Sailor. Maybe not Vainakolo!) but centre is infinitely more difficult.
I’ll be interested to see how Hape goes at the top level. I’ll also be interested to see how the selection of Hape and Ashton impact on other players ambitions of crossing codes to play for England. These two have shown that a VERY realistic opportunity is there for average/good League players who might see the bigger money and glory on offer in English Rugby Union and decide to take a punt. This is also at a time when England have a great batch of young league players coming through the system who are only starting out in their professional careers. For Ashton to convert at such a young age and then find success so quickly might suggest that it’s not that difficult of a transition (whether that’s true or not is debatable, but the indication to league players is there all the same).
It does paint quite an intersting picture of the state of the world game these days when England have 3 Kiwis and 2 League converts in their team at once. It is something that I’m sure would have been almost unbelievable only 15 years ago. How things change!
As a Kiwi I certainly hope that the selection of Hape, on top of Flutey and Hartley goes someway to negating the traditionally uneducated barbs about NZ ‘raping’ the Islands for players. I guess most of these jibes are more aimed at stirring up readers than anything else (and that the more knowledgable general/rugby public realise as much) but I’m sure many do believe some of what they read on this topic. And for those people I sense there is a false sense of righteousness in thinking that NZ may win most games, but only do so with an foundation based on exploitation of the little guy.
I also hope that Hape and Flutey selection are more an abberation than a trend too. I’d hate to see the day when the English team is one made up of players who are eligible because of residency. Somehow to me those kinds of players are not a representation of international rugby based around nations, rather they represent rugby soley as a business.
Personally I can’t imagine how you could be truely proud of wearing another nations jersey and singing someone else’s national anthem because you’ve worked there for only 3 years. Sure you’d be proud that you’ve acheived the unique success of playing your chosen sport at the ultimate level (and that your performance inspires people and makes them happy, when you play well of course). But I’d wager that Hartley, Hape and Flutey (especially) would rather the jersey they wears was a black one, if they had the choice. But the other players in their team wouldn’t. Such is the nature of test rugby, which is why I hope it stays that way and doesn’t become a representation of where you’ve worked recently.
pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 9:08am | Report comment
HAPE PROUD TO BE ENGLISH
“I was brought up in New Zealand and I’m proud of where I come from but I’m proud to be an Englishman as well and have dual nationality.”
Shontayne Hape
Dean Pantio said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:08am | Report comment
What else would you expect him to say?
pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:21am | Report comment
I’m just reprinting something that he chose to say – in response to Matt’s comment above, Dean. I’m sure he could say plenty of other things.
Matt said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:37am | Report comment
By reprinting that comment in response Pothale, does it mean that you’re of the opposite opinion to myself on the topic of dual nationality players and pride in playing for a recently adopted nation instead of your own?
pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:54am | Report comment
Well I’m not sure to be honest Matt.
Ireland went through a period of recrutiing a number of Englishmen as players for its soccer team in the nineties. Jack Charlton discovered the grandparent rule and went wild in scouting for players across the English and Scottish leagues. it became a standing joke that if you stood still for more than 5 seconds in the dressing room after a match, that Jack would attempt to sign you up for the Ireland squad. For a time, they were derisively called the England B team during the 1990 World Cup by English commentators.
All the players loved playing for Ireland, and were staunch players for country and the shirt. The 1990 team was the most successful in Irish soccer history in getting to the quarter-finals at the first time of qualifying for the comp. Who am I to question their commitment? No doubt there were some who maybe made the decision that they weren’t going to play for England, but that’s the choices they make.
It’s the same position in rugby. Irish qualified players who choose to play for England and English-qualified players who’ve chosen to play for Ireland. And as I’ve instanced below, players from Australia and South Africa too.
Dean Pantio said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:53am | Report comment
(Comment deemed poor by Roar community - click to read)
Viscount Crouchback said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:22am | Report comment
It insults our intelligence. We know he’s not an Englishman. Just say: “I want to play international rugby and I’ll give my best”. Forget all the poppycock about growing teary eyed whenever you hear God Save The Queen.
I think a national team can get away with a couple of non-natives,bu England are getting dangerously close to the limit in both rugby and cricket. The Army decided a couple of years ago that it had to clamp down on hiring too many Commonwealth soldiers so as to preserve the “essential Britishness” of the organisation. I think the same ought to be true of English sports teams.
Dean Pantio said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:33am | Report comment
(Comment deemed poor by Roar community - click to read)
Matt said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:03am | Report comment
Not exactly dean. If he has dual nationality it means he is linked to two nations in some way. Just because you represent a sports team it doesn’t mean you are now of that nation, just that you represent it.
Take for example the Beast, who despite pulling on the Bok jumper numerous times and saying that he is proud represent South Africa at rugby, doesn’t hold a South African passport and being threatened with deportation now by South African politicians.
To suggest that someone is English to me suggests they have a strong cultural affinity with England plan to continue to represent that nation. To suggest that Flutey or Hape are English to me would lead me to believe that both hold citizenship or an english passport. Surely to be considered English it would take some kind of legal document proving your nationality. In 10 years time Hape and Flutey will no doubt have hung up the boots and moved back ‘home’ to NZ with their fortunes in tow. Will they then be considered English too?
Hartley I’d consider to be English nowadays, as he moved prior to becoming a pro player and not necessarily just for the rugby I believe (I might be wrong on this though).
I’ll probably move to the UK in a year or so (most likely after the 2011 WC) to do my OE. It’s possible that, like many NZers, I’ll get a job in London and work there for a few years too (just like Flutey and Hape). I’ll no doubt to be proud to work for whichever company hires me, just as I’m sure Hape and Flutey are proud of the England rugby teams history and to be a part of that. But the fact is that they made a decision to move to the UK to make money and see another part of the world. While there they have been given the opportunity to play international footy and earn significantly more money by doing so. It wasn’t any particular affinity towards the country of England that made them decide to pull on a White jersey over a blue, green or red one. It just happened that they had an opportunity to represent that particular team as opposed to another.
I’d argue there is a very significant difference between being English and representing England. And I also argue that Hape and Flutey are the in latter group. I beleive that had they been playing in the Top 14 and been offered a French jersey they’d also have taken it. They are mercenary men who are looking to make as much money as possible in their limited careers. If that means pulling on the red rose and telling the fans they are proud to do so (which they no doubt are) then that’s what they’ll do.
I see quite a distinct difference between dual eligility of players who do so through residency as opposed to birth or heritage. If Flutey and Hape truely consider themselves as Englishmen (as many naive fans probably consider them to be) then I’d expect them to gain English nationality and an English passport rather than maintaining a New Zealand one.
I love to see a rule change where players must hold a passport for the nation they represent. That might make the mercenaries a little less likley to reduce the aura of nation versus nation test rugby by player for whoever will pay and pick them. But maybe that’s just my feeling for the issue.
Personally I wouldn’t be happy if a 24 year old Englishman moved to NZ to play pro rugby and then was picked for the AB’s after 3 years. Obviously you’d be happy to have a good player when there were no NZers good enough to keep the Englishman out, but I wouldn’t consider the guy to be a Kiwi unless he did so to the extent of obtaining a passport.
Dean Pantio said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:25am | Report comment
(Comment deemed poor by Roar community - click to read)
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:26am | Report comment
I’m all for players playing for another country if they want to
However I’m still unsure the effect it really has on players coming through the ranks of the country from which these “foreign players” are being selected to play for.
In this case England are Hape and Flutey taking the spots of Englishmen or are they helping to grow the game in England with their experience?
Does Flutey or Hape for that matter really believe they are English is also another matter I’d say the former would class himself as Maori first and foremost.
In Riki’s case he never played for NZA or the All Blacks and he qualifies on residency so good for him he’s done the time why shouldn’t he be eligible to play? Hape on the otherhand has played representitive league for New Zealand as did one of the Paul brothers so I guess it gets a little wavey on if he is doing this for the Queen and England or just for the stirling.
The real question I guess is how do these players see themselves, if they were in a pub and asked where they were from what would the say. I’m maori and from the wairarapa or I’m English and from London.
To me they would be a fraud to some degree if they deemed themselves as non english but will take the spot of an englishman who has worked his butt off to represent his homeland but only to have his chance taken from him by a foreigner after the kachin$
pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:45am | Report comment
Why is two okay but not three, VC?
Is the line not already crossed as soon as you have one?
And what constitutes non-native? Tom Court was born in Brisbane, and grew up there, playing for the Reds at one point. He moved to Ireland and started playing for Ulster. He won his first Ireland cap last year I think. He didn’t qualify under the residency rule but through grandparentage.
Brett Wilkinson – an SA born player who props for Connacht has been included in the Ireland squad. He qualifies under residency rule but is uncapped at senior level. Should he not play?
Viscount Crouchback said | January 15th 2010 @ 3:39pm | Report comment
I didn’t say “two but not three”. I said there comes a tipping point beyond which the essential Britishness (or Englishness) of the organisation is diluted beyond an acceptable limit. I don’t know precisely where that tipping point lies but I daresay Malcolm Gladwell could tell you. Interestingly, Geoff Miller, the England cricket selector, has made some similar comments this week.
In fairness, it’s not completely mad to have Commonwealth chaps playing for England or Brazilians playing for Portugal – shared culture and all that – but it will become silly if Spanish footballers start turning out for England.
Jannerboyuk said | January 15th 2010 @ 9:39am | Report comment
I think you make a good point about the message it sends to young rugby league players about seeing the reality and genuine possibility of getting into the england set up (you can’t accuse the england coaching set up of prejudice at least) and its no accident that wigans congratulations was connected to a statement about not letting similar young players go. Whether they can manage that or not is another question.
Ian Noble said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:08am | Report comment
Matt
An interesting post.
Ashton and Hape have taken time to play union instinctively, so no instant conversion. Hartley’s mother is English and he came over to England as teenager to stay with family and never returned once he started to play rugby. Hape has dual nationality, Flutey I don’t know but I suspect he is still a Kiwi. Where I would draw a line is for example where Kenyian athletes change nationality to run for Qatar or Bahrain for an initial cash incentive to change nationality followed by further uplifts when they win medals for their new nation.
Matt said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:28am | Report comment
Yeah I certainly see Hartley as an Englishman. While he learned the game and played right through to High School level in NZ, his move to England wasn’t about rugby or money and he has close family and cultural links to the country.
I see Flutey and Hape as more in the vein of the Kenyan runner example. I know it’s well within the rules and that it means that the game of rugby is of a higher quality (because Hape and Flutey wouldn’t be playing for NZ if they were on the books of Bath or Brive) but personally I don’t like the idea of guys taking the money and representing a nation that they don’t truthfully belong to. I guess maybe because of my own sense of patriotism.
It is possibly also because it gives an advantage to wealthier nations (where talent is typically drawn to the money there) when they shouldn’t really need it. England should be a team for Englishmen, not for New Zealanders to earn more money. This attitude might be amplified in part by the general trend of UK clubs to selfishly syphon off NZ (and other) players to the detriment of the NZ game. And also by the common misconception of NZ rugby as the bottom trawlers of pacific island rugby. After years of being criticised and looked down upon (unfairly I believe) by the English media for supposedly stealing away PI talent on a regular basis, I find it is somewhat annoying to then see guys who are clearly NZers then being picked for England and embraced/paraded as Englishmen.
These factors may be clouding my judgement on eligibility, but it annoys me that England might beat NZ with NZ players in their team who are there because English rugby has more money than NZ rugby (rather than English Rugby being better).
Jannerboyuk said | January 15th 2010 @ 9:13am | Report comment
I think england have hit the classic problem. The pressure to succeed, to be the saviour has got rediculous. People are declared failures by a press impatient for the story, and a spectacular success is only just most newsworthy then terrible failure. The young guys that should be fed slowly into the system are therefore put in a stupid situation. Why is cipriani not part of this squad at least? Because Johnson is terrified of the press if he doesnt deliver. How that can be solved is anyones guess. Is Hape going to be a convenient fall guy when england choke yet again?
Siva Samoa said | January 15th 2010 @ 9:47am | Report comment
capriani has been given heaps of chances and hasn’t deliver in both international and club. hape made it because he performed well and earn his place. if hape play badly then he deserves to be dropped like everyone else. but fall guy should rest on the shoulder of the english coach and selectors.
goodluck to hape i always like to see league players success from club level up to international . i don’t like national union buying league players and then fast track them into international rugby arena.
Jannerboyuk said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:13am | Report comment
You would know his qualities more then me, it was more about the atmosphere that has grown up around the england rugby union team. whether its cipriani or some other young player, the idea of developing slowly has gone out the window. This is partly the game being a victim of its success, their is a media circus who only knows jonny wilkinson and are always looking in the great british media tradition to tear people down.
Colin N said | January 15th 2010 @ 12:01pm | Report comment
Cipriani hasn’t had that many chances to be fair, but you are right that he hasn’t performed well enough for Wasps to be selected
Ian Noble said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:14am | Report comment
Siva
Cipriani came back into the England too early following his serious injury. He is just beginning to perform and against Leicester last weekend he was urguably the best Wasps player and made a cracking try with an outside break. He needs more game time but don’t write him off yet.
Both Ashton and Hape have taken their time nearly three seasons in Ashton’s case and two for Hape to understand union and play it instinctively. It takes time and in future GP clubs when looking for players from RL will go for the younger players. Lee Smith of Leeds and England has moved to Wasps and he knows it will take a season or so before he can play union succesfully on the GP never mind at international level. Kyle Eastwood of St Helens has hinted he would probably like to switch at some stage. The problem for RL is that they will struggle to keep some players because the rewards are so much
greater in union. However their saving grace is that transistion is not easy and takes time and players thinking of switching have to have a certain mental strength to succeed.
On the nationality bit, I don’t see anybody questioning Vickerman or Rathbone’s attaching their allegiances to the Ws, or Cooper or Ioane for that matter. By the way I read somewhere that Lote T would like the IRB to change the rules so he can play for Fiji, as a second tier nation. If that happened how many ex ABs might be tempted to play for Samoa, Tonga, Fiji…..
pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:28am | Report comment
I think that rule change request got canned a few months ago, Ian.
Did you really think that Cipriani was arguably the best Waps player last week? I thought he started out well and made the break for their early try, but he seemed to fade more and more as the game went on and Leicester took a firm grip on the match. If anything I thought that pointed to his lack of leadership in the middle of the park. He made one or two O’gara-style touchline kicks, but other than that I thought he lacked severely and got shown up badly.
Ian Noble said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:45am | Report comment
Yep during the time he was on the park he thought he was Wasps best player, but he ran out of steam and is obviously not yet up to full fitness. He needs more game time. By the way I was not surprised to see Wasps so mullered in the pack, as they were definitely 2nd best to Quins in the big game. Wasps backs hardly got any decent ball in the 2nd half and it was all Leicester.
pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:01am | Report comment
True – I’ve never seen a Wasps scrum go backwards so rapidly and so frequently – Dallaglio must have been hiding behind the sofa in embarassment.
I presume it was a typing error when you say “during the time he was on the park he thought he was Wasps best player” – or is that a Freudian slip about Cipriani’s view of himself?
Ian Noble said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:09am | Report comment
Yep Cipriani’s alter ego!!
Siva Samoa said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:28am | Report comment
cipriani is still young and if he keeps up that form will take the reign from johnny and hopefully keep it as long as wilkingson and andrews did in the past.
i ilke the rib to change the laws so those who played sevens, a team, and less than ten international games can play for samoa, tonga and fiji.
i wouldn’t want to see collins, tuqiri and howlett play for the island nations but i would like to see guys like anesi, samo, smith and nacewa given another chance at international level.
Pajovic said | January 16th 2010 @ 11:08am | Report comment
Cipriani, interesting that we have avoided him until this juncture of the thread. If he can learn to defend and tackle, yes, but until then, he hasn’t got a place. I’m sure Stephen Jones will disagree with me but hey, its the truth. He’s is a skillful lad, but I wouldn’t pick him. He seems to have made his reputation internationally against a morbidly disspirited Irish team in 2008 minus BOD and POC that was after a diabolical WC and that obviously had no time for Eddie O Sullivan. The charge downs play heavily in my memory. He has the ability, but has he the temperment?
Viscount Crouchback said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:28am | Report comment
“What I have said is he has not played the best in the world yet lets wait and see how he goes up against the likes of the big three southern teams. Also I said he would not get into the All Blacks and at the same time I have said on a few occasions he is a good player just I personally don’t believe he is good enough to make the All Blacks is it really that hard for people to accept someone having a differing opinion because as of yet it is only the northerners who seem to have an almighty problem with it”.
Fair enough. I think it’s reasonable for Kiwis to wait to see how he performs against, say, the All Blacks. You might be surprised. We’ll see.
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:00am | Report comment
Exactly VC he has not played the ABs who are rightfully or wrongfully the best team in the world at present, this in itself is arguable as i would say South Africa is the team to beat. Anyway I digressed, riki flutely is yet to face a full strength springbok team the third lions test was not the number one team. However Riki did play a very smart game. Riki is yet to play Australia and he has not come up against his home nation in the ABs and all this started from myself giving the opinion that Riki would not make the ABs.
Like I said lets see how he goes against the top teams in the world before we start making such huge claims of how he is better than number 12’s running around in NZ. he may prove me wrong but at this stage I doubt very much he would crack it.
Riki is a star in an underperforming english team and it certainly isn’t that hard to stand out in such an environment at the moment.
Would he be so influential in say Ireland, Australia, Springboks for example?
I doubt so Australia aside I would suggest he would be up against it to get a startting spot
pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:28am | Report comment
But that is the point. In assessing him, who would Flutey be competing against in the 12 stakes across the various top teams?
There isn’t a surfeit of outstanding 12s at the moment anywhere in the game – it seems to be a weak point across many teams.
As I stated earlier, I certainly think Flutey is better than McAlister going on form and play over the last 12 months. As you stated, he was very smart for the Lions. He did well against du Preez, Jacques Fourie and Olivier in the third match, and Steyn and Piennar on the bench. I wouldn’t call that opposition second rate – nor would SA fans.
Yet, you seem to be basing your opinion of him when he was playing utility for the the Canes in 2004 – he’s moved on and has been given time to develop one position. Aside from the Lions test, how much have you actually seen him play recently – he was very good for England in the Six Nations last year. And he’s started playing well with Brive in the Top 14 on return from injury.
You ask would he be so influential in say Ireland, Australia and the Springboks? – yes he would, in my view. Australia have dithered on their 12 spot – a point you allude to yourself. Ireland have vacillated between Wallace and Darcy – I’d pick Flutey on a given day if he was available as a foil to O’Driscoll. He was more than a match for Fourie in SA.
Your initial comment on him was “There are better players than Flutey playing the game in New Zealand” which is why he wasn’t picked for the ABs. That may well have been true at the time – six years ago at his skill level then. But besides Nonu now, who are the others that are so well ahead of him?
It’s not a case of putting him on a pedestal, but you seem to dismiss his talent very easily – mainly in the context of he wouldn’t get on the AB team, in your opinion. But in comparing him to various 12s around the world, he’s doing well. You say that you very much doubt that he” would crack it” at being “better than number 12s running around in NZ”? Are there that many good 12s running around in NZ compared to everywhere else?
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:40am | Report comment
(Comment deemed poor by Roar community - click to read)
pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:54am | Report comment
The dismissal is in your questioning his potential performance against the SANZAR teams, and saying that he only looks good cos he plays in a mediocre England side. You don’t rate him compared to a number of 12s running around in NZ at the moment. I regard that as dismissal of his talent. Does that makes sense?
Right now, you said there were better 12s than him in NZ. All I asked you was to name some of them besides Nonu? That’s not a trick question – I watch the S14 and I’m curious to know who you’re referring to.
In judging Flutey’s form, you omitted the very good 6 Nations that he had to which I referred earlier. Maybe you didn’t see any of that, and therefore, would be unable to take account of that in your assessment of him. I’ve no problem if you didn’t watch the 6 Nations, but you can’t make a comment about his form over the last 12 months, if you didn’t see him play.
You say that I should stop inferring that you are dismissing him. And then go on to say that you are dismissing him as an AB. Except, that’s the point I’m picking you up on. Who else is there to rival him or is better than him in NZ? You said there were a number of 12s. Besides Nonu and the not on song McAlister. Who are these players?
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 12:20pm | Report comment
No Pothale that is not the point you are picking me up on at all, once again you are changing the tone of the debate to suit your argument and itr really is quite boring.
Both Nonu and Macca as would Conrad Smith primarily a 13 however who is listed officially as a centre would be ahead of flutely at the moment Toeava is another player who has played in the centres and is a reliable Fullback and Wing as is Tamati Ellison both who have a lot alot of potential should he be given the oppurtunity to play regularily an advantage is the have youth on their side. If riki was going to challenge anyone for a spot it would be these youngsters he would need to upset then he still has Nonu, Macca and Smith ahead of him .
The fact I do not agree with you is really grating you and now it is becoming apparrant others from the north also do not rate him so highly but because you and Wavell say so it is so right?
You say you watched the super 14v well good for you how much of the ANZC did you see, remember this is where Riki also started his career and there are some very strong players coming through the likes of JAB Robert Fruean and Former All Black current JAB Antony Tuitavake
So there you go just a few names for you to ponder Pothale all who have achieved something Flutey could not do and that is make the JAB / NZA or the All Blacks. there is plenty of competition for spots and like I said Flutey is in no way a shoe in.
pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 12:45pm | Report comment
So in summary, you’re saying there aren’t a number of 12s running around New Zealand at the moment who are better than Flutey. Besides Nonu and McAlister who is not as good on last 12 month form – you’d nominate shifting a 13, and two other utility players who have played in the centre – and who have potential – meaning they’re not as good at the moment.
I’m not looking for you to agree with me at all. I’m just looking for evidence from you to back up your assertions. There was very little as it turns out. That’s no problem, I don’t mind – you don’t have to worry about it any further. Subject closed on my part.
Night now.
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 12:52pm | Report comment
No pothale stop making up such lewd and false statements to try and prove your worth. All of these players I mentioned can play 12 and all of them would give Flutey a run for his money in my opinion. You asked and I delievered you once again are trying to cvhange the goalposts.
Macca, Nonu and Smith all reknowned centres would keep Flutey out of any AB team Ellison and Toeava would no doubt keep him off the bench. Furean is only young and already is showing huge potential.
I think you should go to bed because its quite clear noone can have an opinion unless it is aligned with Pothales thinking.
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 12:58pm | Report comment
In summary Pothale i am saying there are a number of 12s already and utilitys that can cover 12 who have already made the All Blacks not to mention the up and comers in the JABs NZ Maori or NPC teams. Oh bnut thats right it doesn’t fit your argument does it so you are grabbing at straws to keep yourself above water.
like i said from the very start and you and your croonies manipulated and turned into something it never was.
Riki a good player however not good enough on current form or in my opinion has he ever been. if he had been the NZ selectors would have been over in the UK trying to get him to come home however they didn’t and I’d put it down to them not seeing him as a player good enough to play in the black jersey. It really is that simple!
If he was that good the would be trying to lure him home as they are with Aaron mauger and this article shows, also a very similar article was run in planetrugby.
But like i said it doesn’t fit with your argument that he would stroll into the team.
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12040_5854823,00.html
Ian Noble said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:27am | Report comment
Ora
Who knows but there is no doubt Flutey is a better player and it really kicked off when he moved from London Irish to Wasps. The coaching staff at Wasps told him he would tie down the 12 slot. This gave him the confidence to develope and he went from strength to strength. As for the England it will continue to underperform, partly because MJ is struggling to get a settled side, who play together as a squad for a number of tests. If you look at the great sides over the years, the Irish team of 2009, England 2003, Wallabies in the 90s and the AB’s over the years, the Saffers of 2007. they all were successful because they were settled and had core of players who knew each others game.
Flutey is just one but at the moment is he a racing certainty to be picked everytime? Probably on balance the answer is yes, but one indifferent game will it change?
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:33am | Report comment
Ian,
Your right with the uncertainty surrounding the English side it is anyones guess who will be there from week to week.
I don’t have any doubts Flutey has improved it’s rather obvious he has. My original comment was i do not believe he is now or ever been good enough to crack the ABs.
I did say that maybe he is made to look a lot better due to the less than great performance by his compatriots(English) in other competitions. Is Riki being built up to be something he certainly can not be or is it a genuine feeling that he will be the next BOD?
I believe the situation in English rugby has left everyone looking for a hero and at present it seems many are picking Flutey to be that person
Ian Noble said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:39am | Report comment
Ora
I don’t consider Flutey to be an English hero, if anything his light has diminished since he moved to France, “out of sight, out of mind and all that…” He will have to be on top of his game to retain his place and perhaps his move to France has added another dimension to his game.
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:47am | Report comment
Once again your right Ian,
however others in this forum seem to think of him as some demi god that would just walk into any national team
Wavell Wakefield said | January 16th 2010 @ 12:13am | Report comment
I would love you to show me the quote that confirms yet another of your intriguing assertions, Ora.
Pajovic said | January 16th 2010 @ 12:19am | Report comment
Wavell, refrain…….this is a total waste of time. I have tapped out on this because this gentleman has no attention to detail, no references to back anything up, no memory of who exactly said what or any idea what he is talking about.
Let’s bring this back to the 6 nations. Poor Riki has been flogged to death on this thread. He must be absolutely knackered.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 16th 2010 @ 12:45am | Report comment
Agreed. Us barmy army anti-NZ anarchists must rise above our need for confrontation.
I’m quite excited about seeing the France squad. The coming rounds of HC action should see some players trying to prove themselves.
Ora said | January 16th 2010 @ 5:31am | Report comment
Once again wavell here you are trying to make something out of nothing.
Did I say you said it.
Serriously who the hell do you think you are??
Wavell Wakefield said | January 16th 2010 @ 5:38am | Report comment
Now look here Mr Angry, the point is that nobody hs said such thing, but I demand you quote who you think did just as you made the same demands of Pothale. I really wish you’d stop being so abrasive. It’s a recurring and boring theme, not to mention unpleasant. I would ask you who the hell you think you are, but we all know who you are – Hemjay. Now stop flaming, we’ve all had more than enough.
Daniel King said | January 16th 2010 @ 7:10pm | Report comment
(Comment deemed poor by Roar community - click to read)
Wavell Wakefield said | January 16th 2010 @ 12:54am | Report comment
‘on the plus side though, Englands crop of props is looking very good post world cup – Sheridan, Golding, Corbisiero, Mullan, Cole, Wilson plus Matt Stevens to come back. Add to that the fact that Hartley is only 23 and they are looking strong in the front row for a long time
What’s your long term prognosis for the irish front row i.e. for 2011? Who ill be there and how will it happen?’
Yeah, England has some good long-term prop options – which leads me to think that 2011 is a few years too early for this current group, but I have no idea about Ireland, Pajovic. Pothale is your man for the low down on the Emerald Isle.
Ora said | January 16th 2010 @ 5:51am | Report comment
I demand you read, its not had to ascertain Wavell that you and a few others here namely the little band of lads Pothale and Colin N think Riki is a class above the rest, why else wopuld you state that their aren’t any bhetter 12’s running around in NZ at present. Also I see Pothale seems to thinkl Riki would make the test teams for all the nations I mentioned above however he would be a fill in for BOD who Wavell as i have stated in here I believe to be the best centre in the world.
But thats right I did state why and what i thought and gave answers but it doesn’t fit with your lads argument so you constantly reply with sarcastic rhetoric and try to move the tone of the debate to suit yourself.
i have no time for your attempts to discredit me or your lewd accusations it really is juvenile.
UI stated at the top of the thread thast I do not believe Riki would make the ABs and i stand by that.
if you cannnot stomach someone having a differing opinion I suggest you may want to stay away from opinion sites it really is that simple!
Colin N said | January 16th 2010 @ 6:18am | Report comment
“I demand you read, its not had to ascertain Wavell that you and a few others here namely the little band of lads Pothale and Colin N think Riki is a class above the rest,”
If that is the case then it wouldn’t be hard to find quotes where we have stated so. Isn’t that right? So come on my son, get to work.
Colin N said | January 16th 2010 @ 6:22am | Report comment
Aye, I do, or in Jon Parkin’s case, ‘feed the beast and he will score,’ a personal favourite of mine.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 16th 2010 @ 8:28am | Report comment
Oh goodness… I’d forgotten about him from my Champ Manager days.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 16th 2010 @ 6:18am | Report comment
I’m sorry you feel the need to behave in this way, Hemjay, and I’m sorry that you feel the need to act this way on every single thread you feel the need to voice your opinions on. If you take a close look then you’ll find that nobody has been rude, abusive, melodramatic or personal in your direction whereas on every thread you engage with you offend and insult people at will. There’s a common demoninator. I shan’t be responding to you any more. I’m sorry you got so upset and angry.
pothale said | January 16th 2010 @ 8:26am | Report comment
(Comment deemed poor by Roar community - click to read)
Ora said | January 16th 2010 @ 8:47am | Report comment
I personally don’t have a problem with Hape playing for England at all not sure what the big deal is he has been up there long enough now. My only reservations are do the likes of Hape and Flutely really see themselves as Englishmen or are the English for the money?
I alluded to this in a earlier post if put on the spot say in a pub by regular Joe and asked where they were from would they answer i’m Maori and I’m from Wairarapa or i’m English and from London?
If they answer the former I’d question why they were playing for the rose as money could be the only incentive. How do English fans feel about foreign players being gifted test jerseys?
Is it beneficial to the development of English rugby and what is it saying to those guys who have slugged it out through the grades only to be usurped by a player from another country?
Wavell Wakefield said | January 16th 2010 @ 9:23am | Report comment
The answers to your questions have all been answered time and time again, Hemajy.
Nobody is English for the money. If players chased money then they would be playing sport in Japan.
English fans seem generally content that Flutey and Hape are getting picked because they have played three years in England and their form decrees they deserve to play test rugby, and as has been repeated ad nauseum by other Roarers, in the case of Hape he spent plenty of time in the reserves. Thus to that extent other English 12s had the opportunity to stake a claim during that period. Do younger domestic Kiwis feel aggrieved that players are brought over from the PIs on rugby scholarships? Beyond that I imagine English fans feel the same as Australians did when Strauss and Noriega played in the Green and Gold, or perhaps how Kiwis feel when they see Tialata playing All Black rugby with a Samoa tattoo on his hand, or how Welsh fans felt when Copsey and Moon represented their nation… Carefree if the players were/are a positive influence on and off the field, and if they were/are committed and respectful.
Two players playing test rugby has no bearing whatsoever on English rugby development.
This has all been said by others.
pothale said | January 16th 2010 @ 9:55am | Report comment
(Comment deemed poor by Roar community - click to read)
Pajovic said | January 16th 2010 @ 11:00am | Report comment
Wasn’t the first captain of the All Blacks Irish??? Dave Gallacher. I have seen his headstone in Donegal. Died in the great war in the trenches.
Daniel King said | January 16th 2010 @ 7:12pm | Report comment
Mate I agree, is English rugby in such a bad state we have to rely on foreigners?
Wavell Wakefield said | January 16th 2010 @ 10:08pm | Report comment
I’m confused, Pothale. I don’t know if you’re being serious? You know that I know you’re not Hemjay, and it seems that you know who I’m talking to by including a quote regarding my engagement with Hemjay. Perhaps I should have included the words ‘or until you play nice’ following the words ‘any more’. Can I come out of the naughty corner now? Are you also suggesting the reduction of employment opportunity? That seems unlike you.
I think the nationality of Hape is irrelevant. England doesn’t have a lengthy history of choosing New Zealanders, it has a history of choosing New Zealanders who have played rugby league, and that for me is the real issue. Further, Chris Ashton is in the EPS squad. I find that more interesting than debates on nationality. The fact of the matter is that Hape has been earning a living in England for years now. He left league – as a very good player – and choose to try and earn qualification in England. He wasn’t encouraged to come to England as Wales did with Jason Jones-Hughes etc. More later – have to dash.
pothale said | January 17th 2010 @ 6:52am | Report comment
Dismiss your confusion, W2.
I was being totally seriously.
Ignore the hemjay-like figures of this world – they only bring you on a downer man (to paraphrase young ones’ Neil).
England should be without NZ players – they are much better than this. Lengthy history or not, the slippery slope has been slid down already. Call a brake to the halt.
Ora said | January 16th 2010 @ 12:26pm | Report comment
I’m not sure if you read all of the thread or just what you want to.
If you had you will see Zac Zavos has confirmed for you I am in no way this hemjay who you continually accuse me of being.
Also Wavell you will see I have stated I am not fussed they are playing for England and given reasons why. What I have done and you are still choosing to ignore or once again skewer my post to suit your bullish attitude here. You have a bee under your bonnet and for some reason I have really got up your nose.
What I questioned here wavell is are they really playing for England or is it because they are getting paid alot of money?
Do they really see themselves as English or English right now until career is over and they return to their respective countries?
because if they are the latter they really have no business pulling on the rose because they are taking the dream away from some poor kid who has toiled away for years with the dream to wear the rose yet a foreign national comes along and takes the jersey because its convinient for him.
What i said actually asked was what do the english think on the selection I never said it would impact or not i simply asked the question also I asked how do players coming through the ranks feel?
So pull your head in a little and get that almighty chip off your shoulder.
Show me where in this thread I said they shouldn’t be playing for England. I think you’ll find quite the opposite,
Pajovic said | January 17th 2010 @ 12:18pm | Report comment
Ora, let’s buty this one once and for all. All you need to do is to being so ‘Dawsons Creek’ in your posts, make coherant points and then back them up with some facts. I appreciate that you like rugby and that is great. It’s truely a great game and there are so many permutations which make it great. Eg, good team, bad pack, good line out, dodgy back row, static backline, etc. Just, try your best not to make assertions or statement of well, what in French jurisprudence they might call ‘crimes of passion’. Sweeping statements about northern or southern hemisphere rugby are the refuge of an idle mind and fail to take into account the true differences between nations. One cannot brush 6 counties into one ‘band’. Or make an assertion about a particular nation based on the flakey autumn/end of season internationals. It’s a pity we cannot replace these once off encounters with true tests. Imagine a joyful scenario where say, wales played SA 3 times in SA, the same time, AB’s played Ireland 3 times in NZ, Aus played France in Paris, Marseilles and say Perp in a 3 test series. This would tell us so so so much more about teams abilities to (1) learn from the first game (2) adaptability (3) squads/resources given injuries etc and (4) character. It is a pity that the only true test we ever see is the Lions where it is fascinating. Imagine the same hype about 3 tests fixtures invloving SANZAR/EURO teams. It would be awesome. I wish this could be accommodated.
Anyone any opinion about this? I’m just back from a night out in good old Belgrade (and numerous beers/Rakia/Shots) and have been following the thread on my bberry much to the annoyance and frustration of my missus ha ha. She hates following HC rugger. Excellent night for the Irish provinces. BOD legendary as usual, Munster clinical.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 18th 2010 @ 1:02am | Report comment
Right, firstly don’t be rude. You’ve been rude to countless people on this thread and others too, and yet nobody hs been rude in response to you. Stop it. I have no idea why you think it is appropriate to type-shout and be so hostile to people who are generally so nonchalant to you.
Secondly, please (and I ask you this for the umpteenth time) read the threads closely. Ddoing that will prevent you from making foundless assumptions and wasting time.
- I didn’t state that you were fussed that Flutey was playing for England. Show me where in this thread where I said that.
- I have already stated that playing for England is not a path to riches.
- ‘I never said it would impact’ …. ‘Is it beneficial to the development of English rugby’. Yes you did. Pay attention.
- Beyond that you’re repetitive questions have been answered.
With regards to this Hemjay character it must be an almighty coincidence that you say exactly the same things, in exactly the same manner and with the same incoherent prose, as he did and are just as rude and abrasive. Small world, eh?! I am curious as to how you would allegedly be so offended if you had actually never heard of this character? Bizarre.
Grandpabhaile said | January 18th 2010 @ 12:53am | Report comment
You could ask the same question of players playing for New Zealand of course, Ora.
If an All Black was put on the spot in a pub by a regular Joe and asked where they were from would Sivitatu for example answer I’m Fijian by birth and I’m from Suva or I’m a New Zealander and I’m from Wellington or wherever?
If they answer the former, would you question why they were playing for the fern as money could be the only incentive. How do you and other New Zealand fans feel about foreign players being gifted test jerseys? Is it beneficial to the development of New Zealand rugby and what is it saying to those born in New Zealand who have slugged it out through the grades only to be usurped by a player from another country?
Jerry said | January 18th 2010 @ 6:53am | Report comment
The vast majority of those players from another country have slugged it out through the grades though. Even Sivivatu came as a teenager and played First XV rugby in NZ. The only players I can think of who didn’t play any age grade rugby in NZ would be Joeli Vidiri, John Gallagher, Jamie Salmon, Alama Ieremia, Saimone Taumopeau Greg Rawlinson and Steve Devine. There’s probably a few I’m missing. In the case of Gallagher and Ieremia, they did play a fair bit of club rugby before being selected for Wellington.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 18th 2010 @ 7:18am | Report comment
Wasn’t Sivivatu brought to NZ as a 17 year old on a rugby scholarship?
Jerry said | January 18th 2010 @ 7:39am | Report comment
He was 16 I think. It’s not entirely clear if it was a rugby scholarship or a religious one, though I suspect his rugby was a factor either way. It was Wesley College which is a South Auckland powerhouse and has produced the likes of Jonah Lomu and Stephen Donald and does benefit from Wesleyan scholarships to some extent (though it’s my understanding that many of these are nothing to do with rugby). But yeah, that’s why I said he played First XV rugby in NZ. Those other guys came as adults, though in the case of Ieremia and Gallagher (and I think Taumopeau), their emigration preceded their rugby.
Matt said | January 18th 2010 @ 9:25am | Report comment
Sivivatu moved to South Auckland at the end of 1998 after receiving a Wesley Scholarship.
In Fiji he had played as a Fullback. He then played for Welsey College for 3 years (which must have made him a 19yo in his final year, maybe a second year of 7th form?)
He then “gave up the opportunity to represent his motherland in order to pursue his dream of playing for the All Blacks” according to the PI rugby site. However the IRB refused to grant Sivivatu immediate eligibility after he’d been in NZ 3 years as it ruled out his years at Wesley College as not counting. So Sivivatu then had to wait another 3 years before pulling on the black jersey.
In the mean time, as a winger, he’d made the Counties Manukau team whilst still being at school (as Lomu did and Nanai-Williams also did recently I believe) and played for the Pukekohe club.
Then in 2002 he became the only player in a Second Division side to gain a Super 12 contract. He was also named 2nd Division player of the year in 2002 also, aged 20).
In 2008 he made it very clear where he wanted to play his footy and where he saw home as being:
ALL Blacks wing Sitiveni Sivivatu will buck the trend and stay in New Zealand.
The elusive-running Sivivatu has told Sunday News he will shun lucrative overseas offers and re-sign with the NZRU before his contract runs out at the end of the year.
The reason for Sivivatu’s loyalty to the black jersey is his five-month-old son Alex and his desire for him to grow up in this country.
Sivivatu, who went into last night’s test against Ireland with an impressive record of 21 tries from 21 tests, believes New Zealand is the best place in the world to bring up children and says he has no interest in him or his family having to overcome the language barrier in other countries.
“I think it’s safer here than most foreign countries,” he said. “I want him to grow up in New Zealand and know what it’s like to come from a really nice country where there’s not too much violence.”
Sivivatu said his life changed on January 3, when his wife gave birth to Alex and he says he’s found fatherhood an overwhelming experience.
“It’s been really good,” he said. “I enjoy the times with my son. I’m enjoying fatherhood and having a family but I do miss him when I go away. That’s the hardest part about being a rugby player. ”
As well as Alex, Sivivatu says he still has unfinished business in New Zealand, at Super Rugby and international level.
“My long term goal now is to play 100 games for the Chiefs,” he said.
“I’m on 63 now and I’d really like to get to 100 but it depends on how the body holds up and what life after rugby can offer me.
“My goal for the All Blacks is just to try to stay in the team for as long as possible.
“I love playing for this team. It brings out the best in me.
“I’d love to get into the team for the World Cup but there’s a lot of good guys coming through. You don’t get to choose to keep your spot in the All Blacks, you have to work hard to retain it. But I’ll definitely still be around for the next World Cup.”
Then last season he backed up his words by signing through until 2011 with the NZRU.
Personally I still see Sivivatu as the borderline case in terms of eligibility (compared to players like Jerry Collins/Chris Masoe/Rodney So’oialo etc, which I can’t see where any sane person could claim poaching or immoral actions). He was offered a contract as a 16yo and had always stated a dream of playing for All Blacks. He didn’t come because he was getting paid big money, but instead went to a strongly religious school on a scholarship. He then played his way from schoolboy rugby, to 2nd division rugby, to Super12 rugby to then be told be the IRB that his 3 years of residency in NZ didn’t count. So he stayed and waited and then when he’d been in NZ playing rugby for 6 years he was selected for the All Blacks.
His story does read very similarly to Flutey’s with the exception being that Flutey moved to the UK when he was 25, having already played semi-pro rugby in NZ for 6 years. He was then selected for England BEFORE he’d completed 3 years residency.
Sivivatu is more in the mould of Dylan Hartley to me. He was still a kid when he moved to NZ and was hardly fast tracked by the system into pro rugby. It just happened along the way, even though the promise of talent was always there.
Flutey played 5 seasons for the Wellington, where he struggled for a starting spot. He then left for the money and went to the Exiles. After a couple of seasons there he’d earned a bit of a name for himself and then took an offer for Wasps. After 2 seasons there he took the money on offer in Brive.
So Riki Flutey spent the first 25 years of his life in NZ, of which 5 of those were as a pro player. He then spends 4 years in the UK before moving to France. Yet he is an English player. What a joke of a system. I think it needs changing.
Another case in point. The beast. IRB says he’s been in South Africa for 3 years so he’s South African and can pull on the Bok jersey. South African government says he doesn’t hold a passport and isn’t a South African at all. They have also questioned whether he actually deserves a highly skilled migrants visa when there are plenty of current South African props who are equally as good. Maybe the RFU should ask some similar questions?!
This is from the South African Sport Ministry:
‘Talented as he is, Tendai, like all foreign nationals plying their trade in South Africa, is bound by the laws of this country. The migration laws of our country are clear on issues relating to permanent residence and citizenship. We expect our sport administrators to understand and respect legislation that regulate their business. None of the athletes, sport codes, or federations can be bigger than the country.’
‘While Tendai is a live wire on the field of play, the question is whether it is, in the first place, justifiable to say he has scarce skills – the rationale that would have enabled him to obtain the current work permit. If we go the route our rugby administrators are requesting us to take, and facilitate the fast-tracking of Tendai’s citizenship, what would this say to all rugby players in our country? We cannot as a government department responsible for sport and recreation in this country, afford to insult our players like this,’
The principle here is clear: Only citizens of our country can play for our National team, irrespective of the sport code. Therefore, no foreign national can play for any of our national teams, no matter how outstanding they may be. If any player in any code is to become a South African citizen, this has to be done within the legal framework of our country.
‘Federations, provinces and clubs, are more than welcome to approach us for advice on similar issues, instead of trying to slip a player through the legal framework.’
Maybe the RFU and Premier Rugby should take some heed of that stance. It is the sort of attitude that seems to be found wanting in other administrative sporting bodies these days. When you represent a nation at sport you should be legally of that nation. Not a mercenary.
Rugby is bigger than just the money, or at least I thought so.
Ora said | January 19th 2010 @ 5:21am | Report comment
(Comment deemed poor by Roar community - click to read)
Wavell Wakefield said | January 17th 2010 @ 7:42am | Report comment
Foreign players playing for countries that they weren’t born in/didn’t learn their rugby skills in is nothing new – Prince Obolensky and John Gallagher immediately spring to mind, and surely such a trend would only increase during professionalism – just as has immigration has increased generally in society. I think we (rugby union) have already slipped down the slippery slope and have now climbed back to the top again. Never again will we see the Welsh Grannygate scenario, a scenario where Wales had Peter Rogers, Brett Sinkinson, Jason-Jones Hughes and Shane Howarth all in the same side. What I am saying, therefore, is that there is a difference between a more organic allegiance to a country and one that has been developed through less natural means.
What I have a problem with is when a player like Brendan Laney is brought over from NZ with the express purpose of playing test rugby for another country. If I recall correctly Laney played for Scotland A and Scotland (versus NZ Maori and NZ) all within 7-14 days of arriving in Scotland. What I don’t have a problem with is players deciding that they want to represent a country and paying their dues, so to speak, and then playing for that country. For example, Luke Rooney has stated that he wants to play for England. He isn’t doing that for money. If he was seeking money then he would be in Japan or staying in France. Likewise Shontayne Hape has spent 7 years in England and has had plenty of opportunity to earn money or represent NZ at league, or play in the NRL but he chose to play union. That isn’t the easy decision, and as long as these players represent themselves and England with dignity and respect then I have no qualms with their test selection.
In broad terms I firmly believe in inclusivity (you only have to look at the Windsors to see what too much insularity does for you). Thus I don’t think that Hape and Flutey represent a tipping point, or an illustration of the denigration of English rugby, more that their selections are part of a greater trend that has been going on for years now. As long as there are reasonable boundaries then I don’t mind.
N.B. Were you particularly unhappy that Flutey was a Lion?
Wavell Wakefield said | January 17th 2010 @ 8:09am | Report comment
One thought I would like to add centres on the context of patriotism. Obviously I can’t prove this but I suspect that a lot of players who played for their nations in the amateur era felt patriotic about their presence in a test team, perhaps because in a lot of other cases there was no other reward. In the professional era and with expanded media coverage, and the reduction of tub-thumping nationalism in the changing rooms pre-match I suspect that a lot of test players aren’t as patriotic as their predecessors. Players play because it’s their job and because as elite athletes they want to be seen to be the best. In that sense every player is the same, to which extent Hape is just another player who, IMO, deserves the same chance as other players as long as he passes a specific criteria. Just a thought..
pothale said | January 17th 2010 @ 8:24am | Report comment
Yes I was about Flutey and expressed that at the time, I think. Whatever about your argument for players representing countries, I think the Lions qualifications should have remained sacrosanct. However, they may have been broken before Flutey – so I’m not picking on him specifcally.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 17th 2010 @ 8:27am | Report comment
I recall reading a quote once which stated that freedom will only truly exist when there are no states. Perhaps this trend is a mircrocosm of that potential utopian existence.
At the end of the day anybody who is eligible for a UK passport is eligibile to represent that country at sport (within regulations obviously). That’s as far as the debate goes in my mind. Good luck to the guy, I say.
Jerry said | January 17th 2010 @ 8:48am | Report comment
Would they be eligible though? Having a UK grandparent doesn’t make you eligible for a UK passport, nor does living there for 3 years.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 17th 2010 @ 8:50am | Report comment
How could they gain entry into other countries without a UK passport, Jerry?
Pajovic said | January 17th 2010 @ 3:37pm | Report comment
Brendan the ‘chainsaw’ Laney, easily the worst rugby player I have ever witnessed from the (3SANAR) nations to ply his trade here. He was shocking. In fairness to him though, this was not his fault, and as pretentios as the Wallabies felt about losing to Scotland this year, his Scottish team beat the Springboks in his day. Go Brendan!!!!!!
Wavell Wakefield said | January 18th 2010 @ 6:42am | Report comment
Brendan Laney, Glenn Metcalfe, Martin Leslie, John Leslie, Cammie Mather, Dan Parks, Nathan Hines, Andy Craig… I love how people forget their Scottish rugby history.
Jerry said | January 17th 2010 @ 11:57am | Report comment
With their New Zealand (or whatever) passport. IRB eligibility rules don’t require that a player holds a passport for the country they’re representing as those requirements vary from country to country. For instance some countries like Fiji do not allow their citizens to hold a passport from another country (I believe Sitiveni Sivivatu does not hold an NZ passport for this reason – he would have to revoke his Fijian one). In some cases, a country’s requirements can be less than the IRB – eg it’s possible for some Samoan immigrants to NZ to qualify for an NZ passport immediately.
If you’ve got a grandparent from the UK, you can get what’s called an Ancestry Visa, which allows you to live and work in the UK for 4 years. You can then apply for permanent residence and, eventually get a UK visa. Likewise, if you’re sufficiently qualified you can get a Highly Skilled Work Visa (which is what someone like Flutey would have originally got when he signed up for London Irish). Again, if you’ve lived and worked there long enough, you could then apply for permanent residence and eventually become a citizen.
I’ve no idea whether Flutey or Hape hold a UK visa and it’s entirely irrelevant for eligibility purposes.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 18th 2010 @ 12:53am | Report comment
I see, I think. Thanks. Anyway, Flutey’s selection complies with regulations set down by the government, so I’m satisfied to that extent.
P.S. The original question was a sincere question. It might appear sarcastic, but that wasn’t my intention.
Jerry said | January 18th 2010 @ 5:00am | Report comment
Actually, I think I might have confused the issue with a couple of typos there – when I said “eventially apply for a UK visa” it should have said “eventually apply for a UK Passport” and likewise it should have also said “Passport” when I said “I’ve no idea whether Flutey or Hape hold a UK Visa”. They obviously have had visas to be able to live and work in the UK, but I don’t know if they’ve taken the extra step (or whether they’ve fulfilled the necessary steps to be able to do so).
Matt said | January 18th 2010 @ 7:54am | Report comment
If British fans feel happily naive that NZers etc playing for England is an acceptable practise (especially in the case of Hape, who has only played English Rugby for less that 2 seasons) then I guess it’s their own opinion and good luck to them.
But the fact is that the IRB rules for eligibility are still far more relaxed than most government rules. Hape and Flutey do not need to be British passport holders or citizens to represent England. They only have to have resided there for 3 years. And so you ask why Hape and Flutey moved to England in the first place. The answer being more money.
It is the same for Luke Rooney, who has stated he also now wants to play for England. Why did he leave the NRL in the first place? Money. And why has he now changed clubs? More money. If he didn’t care about the money then he’d be playing in Australia for the nation that he was born and raised in, with the hope of being good enough. Why did Craig Gower move to Italy? Money. Why did he then allow himself to represent the Italian national team? More money. If he wanted to play international rugby for his nation then he’d have stayed and done so. Why did Brad Thorn move to New Zealand to play rugby? Because his father was a NZer and Thorn was born in NZ and wanted to see if he was good enough to make the All Blacks. There is a difference in these different situations. Why did Sonny Bill move to Toulon? Money. If he then got a bigger offer to play for Saracens (as an example) would he take it? Probably. And if he played there for 3 years and was good enough for England then you can bet they’d offer him a contract.
Test match rugby is nation versus nation. If players can represent a nation after being paid to play in that nation for only 3 years then we might well end up with an international game more accurately reflecting the current club scene. The nations with the most money attract more and more quality footballers. The likes of Nick Evans and Selala Mapusua would also be wearing the red rose if they hadn’t already been disqualified by IRB regulations too. Where is the integrety of the RFU in picking foreign players for the NT? Is this the result of a club system that also promotes foreign players above locals? To the point where you can’t field a competitive team with foreign players in the NT?
I personally feel that fans are naive if they think these guys put hand on heart like fans do and sing God Save the Queen. They are mercenaries who avoided doing the hard yards in their home nation in order to make more money. Then when they decide they want to play at Rugby Unions pinnacle, which is international football, then they take the easiest route to get there.
And at the moment it says a lot about the English clubs system that the like of Hape and Flutey can make the Enland team so easily. Flutey was of course selected for the ETS before 3 yearrs residency was up. And Hape has made the ETS after only switching codes on mid 2008.
For Wavell to start looking at players in the amateur era (such as migrants like Obolensky and Gallagher) for examples to make this practise more acceptable speaks volumes to me. The current trends is that money is more important than the integrity of both the Red Rose and of test Rugby.
I have an issue with all of the examples raised. The kilted kiwi’s, the grannygate scenario and now the ‘Proud to play for England’ Kiwis. Playing international rugby to me represents the best of one nation vs another. For players like Flutey, who couldn’t make the All Blacks, to then decide he can make more money in UK rugby and then to accept an England jersey makes me lose a lot of respect for what International Rugby represents.
I’d LOVE for UK and French clubs to put a ban on Kiwi players (and all other Tier 1 nations too). Then they might start to take a better look at seriously investing in their youth. And then the NZRU wouldn’t have to spend all it’s money trying to battle European clubs for the services of New Zealand players. Without the constant threat of UK contracts stealing away top quality players the NZRU wouldn’t need News Corp money or the Super 14. Then rugby in NZ could go back to being a game for the local fans and players and not the glitzy foreign centric Super14 that we have now.
European sport in general has a facination/dependency on foreign players (Football, League and Rugby) that only causes the local players to be ignored and for other nations to see little of their home grown stars. Football has already gone to far to return. League and Rugby are now treading a similar path of selfishness, with more and more Aussies and Kiwis playing there for big money. At least the French are trying to show they’re doing something about it. A quota on foreign players is a great start, but why not limit it to a strict Tier 1 quota to allow the growth of the game in developing nations.
How does NZers playing in England help England or NZ? How does Shontayne Hape and Ricki Fllutey help England or NZ?
The only answer is that England papers over a lack of quality English Centres in the GP, whilst setting a dangerous precedent for future selection and player migration.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 18th 2010 @ 9:19am | Report comment
I think a lot of people have already answered your questions, Matt. The answers are all above you.
Flutey didn’t move to England solely for money. Why would he when he could have gained far more money in France? The same applies to Rooney. In broad terms people move to Europe for myriad reasons: money, culture, education, travel, vibrant competitions etc. It’s a little glib to paint in such black and white colours.
P.S. John Gallagher wasn’t a migrant. He was an English rugby union player. You might also have forgotten that he returned to England to play professional Rugby League. Does that not bear comparison with the professional context?
Jerry said | January 18th 2010 @ 9:41am | Report comment
How was Gallagher not a migrant? He didn’t move to NZ as a pro rugby player cause it wasn’t pro back then. He moved here to live and got a job as a police officer. It’s not really comparable.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 18th 2010 @ 9:52am | Report comment
Gallagher grew up in England. What age did he move to NZ, Jerry? (I know he didn’t move to play pro-rugby,btw.) He learnt his rugby in England and moved to NZ. He then returned to England (where he still lives – near me actually), to play pro rugby. The point being that his shift of allegiance wasn’t as romantic as suggested by Matt. I’d like to point out that I only mentioned Gallagher in my initial point to illustrate that people playing for nations they had not grown up in is not a modern trend.
Jerry said | January 18th 2010 @ 9:57am | Report comment
Right, but he moved to NZ for reasons other than rugby. It may have played a small role I guess, but really he was just wanting to see the world and NZ fitted the bill. I don’t think it’s inaccurate to say he was a migrant for non-rugby purposes – he may not have intended to live here for the rest of his life, but the term doesn’t imply permanence.
I don’t really have a problem with Flutey etc, but there’s a fairly big difference between the likes of Gallagher and Ieremia moving to NZ for non-rugby reasons and Flutey, Hape, Vidiri or Devine.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 18th 2010 @ 10:07pm | Report comment
Not necessarily, because Flutey moved to England for a job, not with the intention of playing test rugby, and if Gallagher moved for funs sake, and ended up playing test rugby for NZ then there isn’t a great deal of difference. My initial point was that if things like that occurred in the amateur era then the trend would more than likely increase during the professional era.
Matt said | January 18th 2010 @ 9:42am | Report comment
Flutey left NZ for the UK for more money Wavell. You make it sound as though he sat in a longing northern gaze in the wake of Woodward’s 2003 triumph and say to himself. Who cares about the money, I want to play in England!
Whereas he would have said, I’m not good enough to cut it here. What are my options. Back in 2005 there wasn’t the same level of Australasian players in France. That has only been in the past 3 seasons. In 05 you had most Kiwi’s going to the UK, where the language barrier is easier to get over. You take the best option your agent gives you and Flutey’s was with London Irish. You can’t seriously believe that a man who spends 5 years in Wellingon, 2 at London Irish, 2 at Wasps and 2 at Brive is a beacon of loyalty above self interest? He’s doing it for the money, nothing more.
Are you really that naive to think he’s doing it for England? It’s just another means to an end for him and Hape. They are mercenary players cashing in on their success. And it set’s a bad precendent that I hope is not followed.
So I don’t really have a question, so much is a belief that selecting Hape and Flutey (whilst in the bounds of IRB criteria) is diminishing to the ethos of Test rugby as a battle of one nation for another.
I do agree that they world is very much a collection of grey (as opposed to blacks and whites) but when it comes to sporting eligbility I’d like to include a simple question. Are you legally English?
I don’t think Flutey or Hape are. I don’t think the Beast is either (but he clearly wants to be if he has applied for citizenship).
Without somekind of legal representation of nationality then players are hardly asked to sacrifice anything to represent an adopted country. I wonder, if Flutey and Hape had to become British Citizens to play for England then would they do it (meaning they’d have to forfeit NZ citizenship?). I’d wager Hape would but that Flutey would be too proud a NZer to sacrifice in the name of England.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 18th 2010 @ 9:48am | Report comment
I dodn’t say that Flutey didn’t leave NZ for money, Matt, I said he left for a variety of reasons: ‘Flutey didn’t move to England solely for money. Why would he when he could have gained far more money in France? The same applies to Rooney. In broad terms people move to Europe for myriad reasons: money, culture, education, travel, vibrant competitions etc.’
Unless you have stats that prove this assertion: ‘Back in 2005 there wasn’t the same level of Australasian players in France.’, I’d have to strongly disagree. Also, there aren’t many Australasian currently players in France, there’s a few Australians and a lot of SAs and NZs.
I haven’t at any point suggested Flutey is patriotic about England. As I said, read the posts and the answers to your questions are all there, Matt.
Ian Noble said | January 18th 2010 @ 11:16am | Report comment
matt
Lets start with the premise that all professional rugby players whether Union or League, play professional rugby because they enjoy the game and want to earn a decent living. In the NH there has been a shortage of quality professional players. Why because particularly in England many decent rugby union players could earn more in civvy street than on the precarious playing fields of professional rugby. However, the structures to increase the number of English professional players have been refined and now creates a pipe line of young players. They are coming through to replace some of the foreign players and indeed the older English players now that the professional game is more established and the players have the opportunioty to earn a decent living. Because of the improving pipe line and as a further encouragement the RFU have an incentive payment for the GP clubs that if they achieve 14 out of the match day squad ( say 66%) are English qualified players then they will receive a further incentive payment.
The clubs are free to employ who they wish, provided in the case of foreign players, they qualify for a work permit. Regarding Rooney and Hape, Rooney has English parents and Hape has dual mationality.I don’t know Flutey’s status Therefore if they wish to put themselves forward for the English team that is their choice. Whether they are good enough to play for the ABs or the Ws is irrelevant? As there have been many instances in professional sport of players moving club, changing environment, playing under a different coach they become a new player and to make judgements based upon past experiences is irrelevant as some will be worst players whilst other greatly benefit from a change.
Lets assume that Flutey only qualifies because of the residency rule, that means out of The EPS squad only I out of 35/36 is in this cateogory. How many in the NZ squad qualify by the residency route, whether by sports scholarship or other means or are they all dual nationals? I suspect the other reason why sport scholarships are so important to these kids is that not only do they hope to aspire to play for the ABs but they can earn more money than in their homeland. Further I would like to know how many of these kids on the sports scholarship actually don’t make it to the ABs, what happens to them?
In reality all countries will try and put their best team on the field of play and provided the players chosen meet the IRB qualification requirements then there is no problem. There is alot of hyprocrisy around and those who call foul should look carefully at their own situation first of all.
Jerry said | January 18th 2010 @ 11:30am | Report comment
The sports scholarships in NZ are a tiny tiny fraction of the PI immigration. The only high profile players I know of that came to NZ on a scholarship are Sivivatu and former Fijian international Bill Cavubati.
There was some talk that Chris Masoe may have, but I believe his family actually moved here. To answer your question, I imagine most of them stay here and work. If they’re good at rugby, but not good enough to make the AB’s they could still play here – I mean there’s hundreds of pro-rugby players who aren’t good enough to make the AB’s. They may wish to represent their country of birth in which case they could still play in NZ though the reality is most players in that situation realise they can make more money in Japan or Europe.
By the way, how does Hape have dual nationality. I thought he qualified under residency – is he married to a UK citizen?
I believe from players selected in 09 the following are born outside NZ. Joe Rokocoko, Mils Muliaina, Sione Lauaki, Rodney So’oialo, Sitiveni Sivivatu, Isiaia Toeava, Jerome Kaino. Other than Sivivatu, the rest were in single figures when their families moved here.
Matt said | January 18th 2010 @ 11:57am | Report comment
Of the current 34 man All Blacks team 30 are NZ born, the exceptions being:
Jerome Kaino – American Samoa (moved to NZ aged 6)
Rodney So’oialo – Western Samoa (moved to NZ aged 5)
Mils Muliaina – Western Samoa (moved to NZ aged 2)
Sitiveni Sivivatu – Fiji (moved to NZ aged 16)
So Sivivatu is the only All Black to qualify by residency, although he did also move to NZ prior to being a professional rugby player. Sport scholarships are not as very common occurance in NZ sport, primarily because there are not many private schools in NZ willing to spend the money. The players on scholarships, as far as my experiences go, are there to receive a better quality of education. They are not their to ‘earn money’.
Hardly any (maybe two or three at most) island players on scholarships have made the AB’s. They are not there to make the AB’s though. They are there to help that schools first XV win matches. If they stay within the NZ system then they’ve done well for themselves. Most others would appear to stay in NZ permanently, or possibly move to Europe to play rugby. The number of NZers playing for pacific nations such as Samoa and Tonga shows just how much NZ rugby has given back to the islands. The NZRU allows NZ sides to contract PI players, but special exemptions must be made for other nationalities. There are hundreds of Pacific Island players making a rugby career for themselves around the world thanks to their time being groomed in the NZ system. Maybe you could argue guys like Riki Flutey and Shontayne Hape are doing the same?
But in essence Ian I do agree with you. Everyone is just trying to do what’s best for themselves. Japan for instance has come along well lately under John Kirwan and the whole host of residency eligible Kiwi players there.
You are also correct in saying “There is alot of hyprocrisy around and those who call foul should look carefully at their own situation first of all”. I’m sure that, based on your opinion above, you’ll be happy to correct those who claim NZ has been raping and pillaging the PI’s to better the All Blacks Ian? Just as I’ll maintain that England has been as equally honest about the rules and regualations of nationality. Because of course it is as silly and unfounded a comment as those people claiming the Armitage brothers were pillaged from Trinidad.
Essentially though, everyone is looking out for themselves and their own best interests. The best interests of the IRB is in maintaining the integrity of international rugby. I just hope that have the mettle to maintain these interests in a time of change such as this.
Matt said | January 18th 2010 @ 10:53am | Report comment
Without wanting to commision an investigation into the playing numbers across Europe from 05 to 09 Wavell I’ll do a bit of digging to try to prove my point anyway, and to feed your obvious hunger for stats.
Based on the 08-09 season, and in an article admitedly from a NZ newspaper, it was published following Round 4 of the 08-09 H-Cup. Off all 24 teams playing that weekend 134 were ineligible to play for one of the 6 nations teams (so not counting players who’d qualified by residency.
Of those 134, 25% were Pacific Islanders and 25% were New Zealanders. The remainder were Australian, South African, Argentinean and Georgian.
However, closer to 50% of the GP team in that H-Cup round were foreigners, which mathmatically suggests that if the number of foreigners in England is above the average for the H-Cup by so much then the other nations must be below.
Aside from that, before 05 there were very few big name Kiwi’s or Aussie in France. Since then you had Carl Hoeft, Kees Meuws, Cameron McIntyre, Rodney Blake, Ross Filipo, Manny Edmonds, Craig Gower, Campbell Johnson, Karmichael Hunt, Tone Kopelani, Lachy McKay, Chris Masoe, Steve Kefu, Brad Flemming, Kevin Senio, Brock James, Tasesa Lavea, Simms Davison, Shannon Paku, Dan Carter, Johnny Leo’o, Andrew Mehrtens, Brent Ward, Matt Henjak, Saimone Taumoipeau, Sonny Bill Williams, Luke Rooney, Byron Kelleher, Tana Umaga.
Of those from the top of my head there are 9 or 10 All Blacks, quite a few Wallabies and 4 international league players.
Before 2005 I don’t think you had anything more than a few guys who’d never have made Wallabies or All Blacks signing for French clubs. Some, like Tony Marsh who played for France, took the mercenary route also. But I certainly believe that the migration of Australasian players to France has jumped up since 05. You’ve seen an extention in the signing power of the French clubs in the last season alone with the contracts of Flutey, Haskell, Thompson and Wilkinson.
You can’t believe that the French have always had this recent kind of spending power? The big trend of Aussies and Kiwis in the Top 14 only gained momentum with the rebirth of RC Toulonnais. Boudjellals signing of Umaga (for such a substantial amount) gave the agents the spark of what was on offer. Gregan went to Toulon, as did Merthens and a other guys like Oreni Ai’i and Saimone Toumoepeau. Umaga singed for Toulon in 06. Before that there was hardly any movement of Australasian stars to France. Meeuws and Hoeft were probably two of the biggest. By saying the ’same level’ I’m referring to quality/hype as much as I am quantity.
Back when Flutey signed France was an uncommon target for player agent and it certainly wasn’t awash with the kind of ridiculous money on offer now.
Flutey left for money. Not solely for money, that is true. But mostly for money. Flutey didn’t accept an England jersey solely for money to no doubt, but mostly for money no doubt. But you said “Nobody is English for the money. If players chased money then they would be playing sport in Japan”. I’m suggesting that Hape and Flutey are English precisely because of the money.
You also said that “Two players playing test rugby has no bearing whatsoever on English rugby development”. I believe that it does have a bearing on English rugby development. More importantly it also has an impact on the integrity of test match rugby. I’m just sharing my opinion, which is I’d prefer the IRB to replace the 3 year residency rule to one based on citizenship. Flutey and Hape playing for England sets a bad precident.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 19th 2010 @ 12:36am | Report comment
I don’t have a hunger for stats, Matt, I do, however, think it’s necessary to support assertsions with evidence.
I am confused by your reference to the ‘GP team’ in a single HC round. Surely there was more than one? I am also surprised at the 50% statistic. FYI the amount of foreigners currently playing rugby in the GP (and this includes Irish, Welsh, Italian, NZ etc):
Bath: 34%; Gloucester 40%; Harlequins: 27%; Leeds: 33%; Leicester: 35%; London Irish: 36%; London Wasps: 31%; Newcastle: 29%; Northampton: 31%; Sale: 32%; Saracens: 44%; Worcester: 35%
‘Aside from that, before 05 there were very few big name Kiwi’s or Aussie in France. Since then you had Carl Hoeft, Kees Meuws, Cameron McIntyre, Rodney Blake, Ross Filipo, Manny Edmonds, Craig Gower, Campbell Johnson, Karmichael Hunt, Tone Kopelani, Lachy McKay, Chris Masoe, Steve Kefu, Brad Flemming, Kevin Senio, Brock James, Tasesa Lavea, Simms Davison, Shannon Paku, Dan Carter, Johnny Leo’o, Andrew Mehrtens, Brent Ward, Matt Henjak, Saimone Taumoipeau, Sonny Bill Williams, Luke Rooney, Byron Kelleher, Tana Umaga.’
Hardly any of these are big names (McIntyre, Filipo, Johnstone, Kopelani, Mackay, Kefu, Flemming, Senio, James, Lavea etc). Only Hoeft, Meeuws, Masoe or Mehrtens would fit that category, and Hoeft and Meeuws were playing France prior to 05. Umaga and Carter only played for brief spells (as Campese used to in Italy) and the rest are utter journeymen or 1 cap All Blacks or 1 cap Wallabies. However, all you have done is list names. You have no means of actually confirming whether or not there were as many Australasian players in the 2005 era. I think there were, but can’t prove it, so we’ll just have to agree to disagree. As an avid Top 14 fan I can recall players like Norm Berryman, yet another NZ journeyman, so for me there is no difference whatsoever. Btw, Edmonds was playing French rugby in 2002, and Hunt is an AFL player who was basically on a brief sabbatical. If I recall back as far as 1998, the Brive team that beat Leicester in the HC final contained Grant Ross, Loic van der Linden and Tony Rees. Journeyman have always been present in French rugby. Always. John Daniell’s wrote an entire book on the subject. (Incidentally, I believe that only 10 or 11 Australian players currently play rugby in the Top 14.)
‘But I certainly believe that the migration of Australasian players to France has jumped up since 05. You’ve seen an extention in the signing power of the French clubs in the last season alone with the contracts of Flutey, Haskell, Thompson and Wilkinson.’
Where has this new money come from? The top French clubs have always had huge money. They haven’t simply unearthed wads of cash from thin air. That more English players have been signed simply reflects a trend. The French season is lengthy and English players are seen as stoic and well-conditioned, i.e. ideally suited to a grind. Beyond the four players you have named the rest of the English signed are absolute journeymen which reflects that trend. In the early 00s Scottish players abounded in French rugby: Redpath, Townsend, Longstaff, Reid, Brotherstone, Smith et al. That was a trend just like we are seeing with a handful of English players now. It is a misinterpretation to suggest that a sudden influx of one nationality represents a sudden influx of new money. It is also worth considering that Wilkinson publicly stated that he had always wanted to play in France, had been learning French for years, and wanted to experience a different lifestyle. Thus we come back to the crux of the matter which is that players move to different countries for different reasons, and not solely money.
‘You can’t believe that the French have always had this recent kind of spending power? The big trend of Aussies and Kiwis in the Top 14 only gained momentum with the rebirth of RC Toulonnais.’
You seem to be confusing French rugby with Toulon. How could Toulon’s wealth have an effect on an entire league? Yes, as aforementioned, the top French clubs have always had vast wealth. And, as aforementioned, the big trend of Aussies and Kiwis in the Top 14 did not gain momentum with the rebirth of Toulon. More Australasian players signed for Toulon, yes, but not throughout the entire league. However, as stated previously none of the Anzac players at Toulon are stars. They are journeymen, not Anzac stars, and journeymen have peperred French rugy for years.
‘Back when Flutey signed France was an uncommon target for player agent and it certainly wasn’t awash with the kind of ridiculous money on offer now.’
Yes it was. The top clubs always had huge sums, and a few years ago there was more than 14 clubs in the top league.
‘I’m suggesting that Hape and Flutey are English precisely because of the money.’
Why would Hape spend months playing reserve team rugby at Bath? For money? Why would an established league international join an entirely different sport and play reserve rugby? No professional takes that risk on the proviso that he might be selected for England two years down the line.
‘You also said that “Two players playing test rugby has no bearing whatsoever on English rugby development”. I believe that it does have a bearing on English rugby development.’
How? The English age group side has reached the past two WC finals, and there are fewer foreign players currently playing in the GP than when England won the WC. England has two injured 12s (Olly Barkley and Jordan Turner-Hall), so how does the selection of two foreign 12s cynically affect English development?
I also disagree that Flutey and Hape sets a bad precedent. As I stated in a previous post, a few years ago players were being lured to Wales solely to play test rugby: Peter Rogers, Brett Sinkinson, Jason Jones-Hughes & Shane Howarth. The same was occurring in Scotland: Martin Leslie, John Leslie & Brendan Laney. That was a bad precedent and does not compare at all with players spending a few years playing domestic rugby in that country and then declaring themselves available for that nation. There is a huge difference.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 19th 2010 @ 3:27am | Report comment
Btw, here’s some ’star’ players who graced the French leagues prior to the Toulon explosion, Matt: Scott Robertson – Perpignan (2003), Daniel Herbert – Perpignan (2003, Joe Roff – Biarritz – (2001), Manny Edmonds – Perpignan (2002), Lee Stesness – Toulouse (1998), Kees Meeuws – Castres (2004), Carl Hoeft – Castres (2005), Rupeni Caucaunibuca – Agen (2003), Sam Cordingley – Grenoble(2005).
Wavell Wakefield said | January 20th 2010 @ 4:08am | Report comment
Isitolo Maka – Toulouse (2000).
Rugby Ran said | January 18th 2010 @ 5:26pm | Report comment
Flutey has done well enough when he has turned out for England and appeared to have won the respect of fellow British Lions for his play and willingness to get back from injury. That was no small feat given that some Lions, like some supporters, did not approve of his selection.
I haven’t seen enough of Hape to know whether he is a decent player but I’m slightly worried that England might just be trying to throw someone else into the mix in the hope they strike lucky. We’ve often blamed the centre partnership when it is as much the half back choices or the gameplan which hasn’t helped anyone shine.
Thinking about the 10, 12 & 13 spots, all of the following have played in one of those positions for England and are still available now (injuries permitting): Wilkinson, Flood, Goode, Hodgson, Geraghty, Cipriani, Tindall, Vesty, Allen, Noon, Barkley, Erinle, Tait, Hipkiss and Flutey, Delon Armitage also plays occasionally at centre for London Irish while Bradley Barritt (born in SA) and Dominic Waldouck will take that position for the Saxons. Stephen Myler & Ryan Lamb have both played at 10 for the Saxons before. I’ve probably missed some obvious names too.
Hape might turn out to be a good player and deserve regular selection but I can’t help thinking the England management and coaches have blundered over the last few years by never being able to work out even one decent partnership from those names.
Tait was either played too soon, or not enough, depending on your view. Noon played either far too much, or never with the right partner. Others say England played too deep to bring out the best in Geraghty. Wilkinson has never been selected only as a centre and the “they’ll swap during the game” strategy seems to add to the confusion. Tindall is either a pillar of strength and composure or an over-the-hill, injury-prone liability. As it stands this weekend, the only one of the names above guaranteed a game in the Heineken Cup Quarter finals is Erinle and he’s not even in the Saxons squad.
Occasionally, England select someone who does seem to click. Lewsey did that in Woodward’s squad while Johnson has found Delon Armitage. More often that not, we laud a new player for a fair showing against mediocre opposition and then can them when there’s a run of bad team performances. Wingers seem especially vulnerable to that treatment so it’s probably only a matter of time before Banahan is out of the picture as we’ve seen with Varndell, Strettle, Vainikolo, Sackey etc. I’m not a fan of his play so that won’t pain me too much.
I don’t watch all these players regularly enough to have a good view of who should be our best 10, 12, 13. I do recall that even Woodward never completely settled on a pairing. When Betsen threatened to put Wilko off his game, or England lacked composure, he went for Catt. Catt’s 2001 combination with Greenwood produced some of the best English back play seen in the professional era. It was also a major reason why Brian Ashton was brought back to the fold to help Robinson. Against a centre partnership including a player like Mortlock, however, Tindall was the choice.
At the moment, Flutey seems to be the one man in that group guaranteed a place in the starting line-up, probably more so than Wilko at 10. Here’s hoping we find someone to stick with him even while the rugby press cries out that another one of a dozen names is being criminally underused. For goodness sake, it wasn’t that long ago some of those same writers were lauding Billy Twelvetrees as an England prospect on the strength of a single good club outing.
ohtani's jacket said | January 18th 2010 @ 10:46pm | Report comment
Whether Flutely made the move for money seems immaterial to me. He gained the opportunity to play for England and he’s taken it. I don’t think he would’ve ever been an All Black had he remained in NZ, but so what? Henry has a system and there’s a lot of guys who don’t (or didn’t) fit that system. What are they supposed to do? Chew grass for the rest of their careers?
Ian Noble said | January 19th 2010 @ 7:12am | Report comment
Matt, WW and RR
Really excellent posts with interesting detail. If I recall next season the Top 14 are bringing in a salary cap of 7M euros which compares to the GP of circa £4M and they are insisting that game squads must include at least 60% of French qualified players.
What effect will it have upon foreign recruitment? The rumour is that Wilko gets £700K plus bonuses for Toulon, so I suspect there will still be room for the marquee signing but the present blanket high salaries may become a thing of the past. In many ways very similar to the GP where the development of the academy pipeline is increasing the number of domestic qualified players and the reliance on foreign players to make up the squad will reduce.
The other major issue with England is selection, I don’t know how many players MJ has used for the England team but it is a considerable number partly caused by the large volume of injuries, but somehow he got to create a settled side and go with his initial selections for the whole of the 6Ns regardless of results. A brave call because if England were to lose against Wales in the first game then the press would have field day, but unless he does stick to his guns England will still be shambles at the end of the 6Ns.
RR when Hape played against the Quins, he was the main threat, good hands, balanced runner with deceptive speed. I also llike his attitude, as I have mentioned before, he terminated his contract with the Bulls and moved to Bath, played his first season in the A team to learn union. No arrogance but got his head down and has gradually proven that he can play union. Judging from a friend who is a Bath nut, he is an excellent team man and is held in very high regard by the Bath fans.
Matt said | January 19th 2010 @ 8:32am | Report comment
I think the other big factor Ian is the french governments proposed changes to Image rights for sport players. This was the law introduced in 2004 which basically allowed French clubs to treat 30% of a players salary as image rights. This was a massive tax break which is probably what lead to, in my opinion WW
, the increased spending of French clubs since 2005.
With the government removing this law from 1 July 2010 there will be an immediate reduction in the money on offer in France. That, coupled with the Salary cap (which is hardly restrictive on its own!) and Quota on foreign players might go some way to restoring French rugby’s dangerous trends for well paid foreigners.
However, as the Dupuy eye gouging saga has shown (and the Tincu one previously) the clubs weild considerable power and have a legal system that is very liberal to back them up. Should the foreign quota system be met with opposition from a certain club (maybe Toulon, who tend to have a lot of foreigners) then will they be able to use the courts to get around the LNR’s quota?
On the topic of injuries too Ian, obviously England have had more than their fair share of late. That raises another topic which the Top14 is facing now too, fixture congestion and too much rugby. I wonder if Premier Rugby or the LNR will ever be able to force a reduced calendar on their clubs? Presently it seems that all nations have too much rugby on their calendar’s. Maybe Australia is the exception to this, which is why we now have a Super15 for next season, but for most nations the reliance on TV money has seen the top athletes being overworked and left injury prone.
A couple of final questions (that admitedly I’m too busy/lazy to answer myself right now):
1. Does Premier Rugby (and the other respective NH unions) have similar plans for a foreign quotas, or do they exist already?
2. Has Shontayne Hape already played Rugby Union before? Being from NZ it is very likely he has had some kind of experience, but I wonder if he might have even played at school boy level at some stage.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 19th 2010 @ 9:02am | Report comment
Matt, 1 quick point & some brief random points – agreed about the increased wealth BUT far more significant amongst the smaller clubs – Bayonne, Brive etc. The Toulouse & Clermont budget, for example, has always been monstrous.
One point regarding the quota system – I recall reading that foreign players would count as home trained i.e. trained by the club, and thus not foreign, if the player had been at the club for a specific time. The example of Matt Henjak was cited at Toulon. BUT … something to note is that the top French clubs are generally top heavy with French players. It is the smaller clubs who are looking to break into the higher echelons that have invested more in foreign players.
One point regarding foreign players in England. The numbers are gradually decreasing and most coaches seem to be taking the home grown option more and more. I’m sure Ian could expand pertaining to his club Harlequins.
Ian Noble said | January 19th 2010 @ 10:39am | Report comment
WW
Quins have an excellent academy structure and Brown, Lowe, Masson, Turner Hall, Care, Clegg, Robshaw, Guest, Robson, Lambert have come through the academy route and have appeared in the first team this season. Other regulars are Strettle, Easter, Mordt, Easter, Skinner, Percival, Brooker, Croall and Dickson who are all English qualified players. Dean Richards always made a point of bringing through English talent. Quins have 1 AB (Nick Evans) 2 PIs (Fuga and Johnson) 3 Ulstermen (McMillan, Andress and Stevenson), 3 Argentinians (Tiesi, Camacho and can’t remember but a new 2nd row). I know I have missed some but all the academy are English with a mix of U20 and U18 internationals. As a fan I enjoy watching this blend of English and overseas players.
Colin N said | January 19th 2010 @ 6:49pm | Report comment
Clegg was signed from Newcastle and Care from Leeds.
Ian Noble said | January 19th 2010 @ 9:12pm | Report comment
Colin N
Care joined when he was 18/19, Clegg is still 19 and plays primarily in the As with the other academy members and is in his second season with England U20s. He is understudy to Nick Evans and as he gets more experience he will get more game time.
WW
I forgot UGO. He probably is the biggest success of Quins academy system having been involved with Quins since he was 14/15.
Colin N said | January 19th 2010 @ 10:31pm | Report comment
But neither came through the Quins academy which is what I assume you are trying to show.
It’s like Chelsea saying they should take the credit for Daniel Sturrigde’s development, despite the fact they’ve signed him as a teenager. The same could be said of Dan Gosling
at Everton.
In terms of rugby the same could be said of Doherty at Sale.
The fact is, they have never been part of Quins’ academy.
Ian Noble said | January 20th 2010 @ 3:57am | Report comment
Colin N
It certainly true that they did not come through the Quins academy from 12/13, but as Tony Diprose explained at a supporter forum, once an academy player is 18 he can move to another club. Both Care and Clegg fell into that cateogory and moved into the Quins academy/development system and mentored by a senior squad member. In the case of Care, Andy Gomersall was his mentor, ironic now that he has moved to Leeds. On the other hand Quins decided to not award a further academy contract to Billy Twelvetrees when he was 18, nickname 36 (think Irish) and he moved to Leicester and as part of his development/academy programme they loaned him to Bedford.
Colin N said | January 20th 2010 @ 7:39pm | Report comment
“but as Tony Diprose explained at a supporter forum, once an academy player is 18 he can move to another club.”
“Both Care and Clegg fell into that cateogory and moved into the Quins academy/development system and mentored by a senior squad member.”
Slightly contradictory don’t you think?
A player can develop when they are 25. Flutey is a prime example.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 19th 2010 @ 9:46pm | Report comment
I played with Masson through the age groups. His ascent to professionalism is either a miracle or the perfect illustration of hard work.
Ian Noble said | January 19th 2010 @ 10:05pm | Report comment
WW
Tosh had an excellent season last year as a foil to Turner Hall, but this season has struggled to get game time as Tiesi has been playing very well. He is a good squad member but he coming under pressure from George Lowe, who at 20 is considered to be part of the future of Quins. I suspect that when Conor O’Shea arrives as DOR, he will reassess the squad and the future of Tosh may be questionable, particularly as there is another young back, Ross Chisholm, who was England schools 400M champion pressing for a place in the centre in the next year or so.
Matt said | January 19th 2010 @ 9:23am | Report comment
I actually read (I think it was on Wikipedia though, so not 100% trustworthy) that Brive were looking to slash their budgets by 40% ahead of the 10/11 season?! Apparently they are spending 7.2M euro per season, which is obviously 90% of the proposed 8M euro cap. I guess maybe our mate Riki isn’t exactly charging peanuts for his french sojourn.
Another club is a bit of trouble is Bourgoin, who’s players were forced into taking a pay cut to avoid bankruptcy in 2009.
Are those foreign numbers in England really decreasing WW? All the GP rugby I’ve been watching lately has seen plenty of foreigners in the run on sides, maybe the youngsters are on the bench or reserve squads? No cheeky suggestions there, just genuine disbelief that foreigners are decreasing. You did say gradual though.
If this drop is happening, is it because of a change in mindset from the coaches, or is it the finacial incentive scheme that Ian (I think) was talking about somewhere eariler? And is that the RFU equivalent of a quota for the GP?
Wavell Wakefield said | January 19th 2010 @ 9:59pm | Report comment
I believe that to be the case (fewer foreigners in the GP), Matt – and I suspect that the credit crunch has had a hand to play, and also the fact that young professionals are getting better and better. Professionalism is a very nascent concept in rugby union (in GB at least), and so theoretically year after year the academy players should be getting better and better. I’ll have a look at the English team sheets from the most recent HC games and get back to you.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 20th 2010 @ 4:04am | Report comment
Northampton 34-0 Perpignan
Foden (Eng.), Ashton (Eng.), Clarke (Eng.), Downey (Ireland), Reihana (NZ), Geraghty (Eng.), Dickson (Eng.); Tonga’uiha (Tonga), Hartley (Eng.), Mujati (SA), Fernandez Lobbe (Arg.), Kruger (SA), Dowson (Eng.), Best (Ireland), Wilson (Ireland) – 7 English players
Sharman (SA), Waller (Eng.), Vickers (Eng.), Day (Eng.), Gray (Sco.), Dickens (Eng.), Myler (Eng.), Mayor (Eng.) – 6 English players
–
Gloucester 23-8 Biarritz
Morgan (Eng.), Simpson-Daniel (Eng.), Molenaar (Eng.), Fuimaono-Sapolu (Sam.), Vainikolo (Eng.), Robinson (Wales), Lawson, R. (Sco.); Dickinson (Sco.), Lawson, S. (Sco.), Somerville (NZ), Attwood (Eng.), Brown (Eng.), Strokosch (Sco.), Hazell (Eng.), Delve (Wales) – 7 English players
Dawidiuk (Eng.), Wood (Eng.), Capdevielle (France), Eustace (Eng.), Narraway (Eng.), Lewis (Eng.), Burns (Eng.), Voyce (Eng.) – 7 English players
–Leicester 47-8 Viadana
Hamilton (NZ), Tuilagi, A. (Sam.), Hipkiss (Eng.), Vesty (Eng.), Tuqiri (Australia), Flood (Eng.), Youngs (Eng.); Ayerza (Arg.), Chuter (Eng.), Cole (Eng.), Deacon, L. (Eng.), Parling (Eng.), Croft (Eng.), Woods (Eng.), Crane (Eng.) – 11 English players
Davies (Wales), Stankovich (Eng.), White (Eng.), Newby (NZ), Moody (Eng.), Grindal (Eng.), Mauger, A. (NZ), Murphy, J. (Ireland) – 4 English players
–
Stade Francais 15-13 Bath
Maddock (NZ), Stephenson (Eng.), Carraro (Aus.), Hape (Eng.), Banahan (Eng.), Little (Fiji), Claassens (SA); Flatman (Eng.), Mears (Eng.), Wilson (Eng.), Short (Eng.), Grewcock (Eng.), Beattie (Eng.), Salvi (Aus.), Watson (SA) – 9 English players
Dixon (SA), Barnes (Eng.), Jarvis (Eng.), Hooper (Eng.), Skriving (Eng.), Bemand (Eng.), Davis (Eng.), Cuthbert (Eng.) – 7 English players
–
Blues 36-19 Sale
MacLeod (Wales), Cueto (Eng.), Tait (Eng.), Thomas (Wales), Cohen (Eng.), Hodgson (Eng.), Peel (Wales); Lewis-Roberts (Wales), Briggs (Eng.), Halsall (Eng.), Schofield (Eng.), Gaskell (Eng.), Fearns (Eng.), Seymour (Eng.), Koyamaibole (Fiji) – 10 English players
Jones, M. (Wales), Kerr (Scotland), O’Donnell (Eng.), Jones, C. (Eng.), Abraham (Eng.), Wigglesworth (Eng.), Kennedy (Eng.), Doherty (Eng.) – 6 English players
–
Toulouse 33-21 Harlequins
Brown (Eng.), Strettle (Eng.), Tiesi (Arg.), Mordt (Eng.), Evans (NZ), Care (Eng.); Jones (Wales), Fuga (Samoa), Andress (Ireland), Percival (Eng.), Robson (Eng.), Guest (Eng.), Skinner (Eng.), Easter (Eng.) – 9 English players
Brooker (Eng.), Croall (Eng.), Johnston (Sam.), Stevenson (Eng.), Robshaw (Eng.), Dickson (Eng.), Clegg (Eng.), Williams (Eng.) – 7 English players
–
Scarlets 33-21 London Irish
Armitage, D. (Eng.), Hewat (Aus.), Seveali’i (Sam.), Mapasua (Sam.), Homer (Eng.), Lamb (Eng.), Hodgson (Eng.); Dermody (NZ), Paice (Eng.), Rautenbach (SA), Kennedy (Eng.), Casey (Ireland), Thorpe (Eng.), Armitage, S. (Eng.), Hala’Ufia (Tonga) – 8 English players
Coetzee (SA), Murphy (Eng.), Ion (Romania), Roche (Eng.), Johnson (Eng.), Rudd (Eng.), Richards (Eng.), Malone (Aus.) – 5 English players
–
Ian Noble said | January 20th 2010 @ 4:25am | Report comment
WW
Interesting info, London Irish and Northampton would not meet the RFU benchmark of at least 14 players being England qualified. By the way Stevenson in the Quins squad is an Ulsterman.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 20th 2010 @ 5:03am | Report comment
Stevenson – so he is, Ian. Right you are.
Re: Northampton – Lawes failed a pre-match fitness test and I believe Brett Sharman is English qualified.
Ian Noble said | January 19th 2010 @ 9:24am | Report comment
Matt
The RFU through the professional Game Board has agreed to pay an incentive to clubs who have at least 14 players registered for England in their matchday squads. As you can see from WWs post some clubs have reduced their foreign quota through bringing through more academy players and scouting for players in ND1 (now known as the Championship). It is difficult to have actual quotas as it is probably against employment law in the UK.
I believe Hape might have played union when he was very young but according to Robbie Paul he appears to have played League for many years. It appears he was encouraged by Vianikolo to switch codes. What I really like about Hape is the way in which he handled the switch. He showed considerable respect for the change and was prepared to learn union in the A team for nearly a season, so that when he made the step up to the GP side he could play instinctively. He terminated his contract at the Bulls before expiry and moved early so he could learn the game. Not easy but shows alot of mental strength. How he goes for England is in the lap of the gods but the way in which he has handled himself to date means he should be able to handle the pressures he will be faced with on the international arena.
On the question of too much rugby, in the UK partly mainly because of football we are used to seeing major sport every weekend throughout the year. The major rugby clubs need games every weekend in the season to generate the income. The league and cup competitions have to be meaningful to consolidate the spectator interest. They generally carry a squad of between 35/40 players which allows for rotation. The new agreement between club and country and ratified by the PGB restricts the internationals to 30 games a season plus they have to rested prior to the onset of the international games in the Autumn and the Spring (6Ns). Player care and recovery is a big issue as the game is faster and harder than ever before. Injuries are unavoidable but it how they are managed is important. Nothing is perfect but the clubs and regions in the UK seem to got their structures about right judging from the increasing interest in the professional union game.
Ziontrain said | January 19th 2010 @ 11:32am | Report comment
This is a hilarious debate. The poms are trying their best to jusify Hape, Fluelty and god knows who else as proud englishmen doing it for the country. Absolute bollocks. You are embarrasing yourselves.
Ian Noble said | January 19th 2010 @ 9:53pm | Report comment
Ziontrain
Rather a pathetic comment, the major issue in this thread is whether the IRB current regulations on national qualification are satisfactory. Frankly if Flutey didn’t qualify then us Poms would not get upset as it would be non issue, we have enough good quality players to cover his position. However he does qualify, he wants to play test rugby, which is afterall the pinnacle of any sportsman dream. I don’t think when he originally moved to England it was on his agenda, but his move to Wasps seemed to change his outlook, Shaun Edwards and Ian McGeechan moved him to 12 and as part of the motivation raised the bar with the aim of test rugby. He responded positively and was voted player of the year by his peers in the GP.
Sometimes in life people have to get away to realise their full potential and perhaps in Flutey’s case he is one of those who by luck, maybe good judgement has found the right circumstances to achieve his dream of playing test rugby. I know from reading articles that to play for England was not an easy decision and as a proud Maori his preference would have been to play for the ABs, but that door was closed and the IRB qualification route offered him the opportunity to play test rugby. England consider him good enough to be chosen and the other English players will have to step up to the mark to dislodge him, not such a bad thing.
I don’t know whether you can recall but Martin Johnson was picked as a junior All Black and could have played as an AB. His wife is a Kiwi. However his rugby future was in England and he returned and the rest is history. Flutey and Hape’s rugby future is in the NH. Hape has dual nationality and has been in the UK for 8/9 years. They are both off the AB radar because they are not returning to NZ, as Mauger and Hayman probably will do so for RWC 2011.
All the major rugby nations have had players who were born outside the country in their squads without embarassment, Vickerman and Rathbone for OZ are examples. I didn’t see any lessening in intensity by these two players when playing for OZ. The fundamental question is whether the IRB qualification route is the right way.
Ora said | January 20th 2010 @ 5:26am | Report comment
Ian I agree with you post except for one comment
“. They are both off the AB radar because they are not returning to NZ, as Mauger and Hayman probably will do so for RWC 2011.”
That is simply untrue.
They were never on the radar for the ABs and it is highly unlikely either would make the AB team right now neithers form surpasses any of the talent that is already in the squad.
As I have stated a few times in this thread already, had the AB selectors thought they were even slightly capable of making the ABs and playing in 2011 they would be trying to lure them back.
Flutey has Nonui, Macca and no doubt Mauger ahead of him not to mention promising youngster Robbie Fruean coming through the ranks.
It is every boys dream to play for the ABs and if we are lead to believe what some posters in here are saying that Hape and Flutey aren’t playing for money then you could guarantee they would both prefer to don the Black Jersey the most famous in world rugby. However reality is they were never on the radar not now not ever.
Pajovic said | January 20th 2010 @ 6:18pm | Report comment
Ora stated: ‘That is simply untrue’
How is this statement untrue?: ‘They are both off the AB radar because they are not returning to NZ, as Mauger and Hayman probably will do so for RWC 2011′
It makes perfect sense. Just like BOD or Tom Croft are off their radar because they are not eligible, they are off the radar because they will not be eligible for selection for the AB’s – simple really. It’s a statement of fact, which accordingly cannot be said to be untrue.
Ora, you are the most environmentally blogger I have ever come across. You seem to recycle the same point every time you get your crayons out.
Can someone post a story about the HC or something so that we can talk about something else???
Ora said | January 21st 2010 @ 5:41am | Report comment
The problem here is Pajovic, the selectors do not see either of the two as All Blacks and they never did, and just to keep the carbon footprint down as you say. If they were the selectors would have made an effort to get them to come back.
They are ineligible now yes but if they were up to it and not chasing the dollar you could absolutely guarantee they would have been lured home. So this simple fact you talk about is only possible because they Hape and Flutey are not now nor were they ever wanted by the AB selectors it really is that simple!
But that doesn’t fit your argument at all so you come in here with some ridiculous rant and sarcasm.
You accuse me of saying the same thing I could say likewise for you.
Also not sure how long it takes for information to process in your brain but you made a comment
“Can someone post a story about the HC or something so that we can talk about something else???”
Ah hello this is a thread about hape making the England team!!!
Might pay to keep it on track don’t you think ?????
pothale said | January 21st 2010 @ 6:44am | Report comment
Ora
I agree with your posts except for the following comments:
“They were never on the radar for the ABs and it is highly unlikely either would make the AB team right now neithers form surpasses any of the talent that is already in the squad.”
“The problem here is Pajovic, the selectors do not see either of the two as All Blacks and they never did…..If they were the selectors would have made an effort to get them to come back.”
“So this simple fact you talk about is only possible because they Hape and Flutey are not now nor were they ever wanted by the AB selectors it really is that simple!”
“However reality is they were never on the radar not now not ever.”
I don’t agree with these statements since they are based on a unproven assumption by yourself.
(Unless you’re secretly a spokesman for the AB selectors and have been briefed by them….)
Ora said | January 21st 2010 @ 7:16am | Report comment
So Pothale,
Where’s your proof that this isn’t true then ?
Come on blow us away with your evidence that Flutey would make the All blacks as too would Hape. Come on sunshine you think you know it all, do you know something that we Kiwis don’t do you. Are you in liason with the NZRFU are you?
Hmmm didn’t think so
As with what you accuse me of your postys are nothing but speculation and your opinion.
This is an opinion site and people are going to have differing opinions. If you cannot accept that why don’t you move along.
Saveyour pathetic little sarcastic rhetoric and attacks, my 7 year old daughter has more maturity about her than you could ever possibly dream of having.
Get a grip and grow up!!!
Rugby Fan said | January 21st 2010 @ 8:08am | Report comment
Ora,
You make two different points. First of all, you say Flutey wasn’t good enough in NZ to get near the ABs squad. That seems reasonable, most here seem to agree.
You then say that Flutey isn’t good enough now to get in the squad. To back it up, you say that the All Black selectors would have made an approach to him to head back to New Zealand if he had been good enough. I think that’s problematic.
Flutey is one of over a dozen centres England have selected in recent years. He might have stepped up to the Test stage and, like others before him, failed to make an impact. The point is that he showed how good a Test player he could be only after he had committed to England by which point it was too late for the ABs to consider him.
When thinking about whether to commit to England, Flutey would undoubtedly have weighed up his chances of being picked for NZ and decided England offered his best opportunity. You can’t, however, say that he must have decided he had no chance. He would have realized that to play for NZ would have meant finding a team back home and proving himself all over again.
As a professional rugby player, he was being offered a chance to play Test rugby immediately or start a new career path to win selection in NZ. He made his choice.
We don’t know if anyone in the All Blacks set-up did have an eye on Flutey. I doubt it because it is only recently that NZ have considered calling home some of those overseas players (which also obliges them to make concessions to the likes of Carter). They haven’t really looked at anyone outside former ABs so it would only have been tentative contact at most.
Consider, however, what Flutey could possibly have been offered anyway. At most, someone might have hinted he would have a chance at the squad if he could prove himself again in S14. Nick Evans had a spot in the ABs squad but it wasn’t enough to keep him from leaving to pursue his rugby career elsewhere and I’m sure Flutey would have taken that under consideration. That’s no disrespect to the ABs, it’s a simple acknowledgement of how fickle the game can be and why a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush.
I’m sure the fact that Flutey has elected to play for England is enough reason for some AB fans to decide that he didn’t have the right character to be an All Black anyway. I can understand that reaction and it’s all part of what makes conversation between rugby fans a lively affair.
On purely rugby grounds, though, if Flutey had played as well in NZ as he has in England and Lions shirts, I don’t have any doubt myself that he would have been called up for a place in the All Black squad. The only question in my mind is whether he would have secured a regular spot. If he can’t maintain his form at Test level then the answer to that will be an easy “no” but that will also be true for his England place.
pothale said | January 21st 2010 @ 8:57am | Report comment
Good summary and response, Rugby Fan.
The fact – as opposed to other opinion or personal speculation – that Flutey is now selected for England, and therefore couldn’t be selected by the ABs for 2011 seems to have sailed over Ora’s head. Ditto Hape. Albeit Hape’s ability has yet to be proven on a Test stage unlike Flutey.
Pajovic said | January 21st 2010 @ 8:10pm | Report comment
Ora, the simplicity of your arguement is charming. I admire your passion, if not your syntax, attention to detail or your crushing inability to articlate yourself. You seem to have no idea what anyone has said in previous posts. Instead, you have created a combined super human called ‘The Northerner’ which appears to be your number one nemesis.
Ora: ‘do you know something that we Kiwis don’t do you. Are you in liason with the NZRFU are you?’
Classic Ora, the above statement evokes images of all the world’s Kiwi’s sitting around a camp fire. G Henry asks Ora how his day went, Ora replies that it went well, that his battle with the Northerner still rages despite numerous vitriolic attacks and that people still have difficulty unerstanding him. Ora then askes G Henry how his day was, G Henry replies that ‘ It went well, that he went to the shop, bought milk, brough his watch to get fixed, had a fleeting look at some of the tennis on tv and reiterated his decision not to pick Riki. He also disclosed his ‘inner circle knowledge’ that he, nor any of his AB predecessors, not and NZ coach he knew would ever have picked Riki Flutey. Never ever ever never’.
And so folks, that was the special, warm, fuzzy and wonderful day that boy Ora learned that Riki’s card had been marked and that no one in the AB set up past or present ever for even an iota of a second had ever considered picking Riki…….. Ever.
Ora: ‘But that doesn’t fit your argument at all so you come in here with some ridiculous rant and sarcasm.
You accuse me of saying the same thing I could say likewise for you’.
I have no idea what this means. But if it is a Yoda impression, it is awesome.
pothale said | January 21st 2010 @ 7:30am | Report comment
I didn’t accuse you of anything, Ora – would you ever calm down. I simply said that I didn’t agree with some of your comments. That’s my opinion and I’m entitled to it. This is an opinion site and people are going to have differing opinions. If you cannot accept that, then maybe you should think about this:
Do you know the old story about what happens if you put a frog into a pot of water, and then slowly heat the water to boiling point?
Ora said | January 21st 2010 @ 7:41am | Report comment
Pothale instead of rewording what I have just said to you so that you sound somewhat moderate and witty, i’d just restrain yourself from hitting the reply button.
What i have taken exceptionj to is your ridiculous rhetoric and sarcasm, you and your little band of friends hunt in packs it really is quite juvenile. Funny how only the Northern posters seem to think Hape and Flutey would make the ABs don’t you think?
So I’d actually think before you write your next attack Pothale because as of yet it is only you and your friends who have got personal and throwing around insults and sarcastic comments.
So like I have said just above the post which you replied to and much further up the post to your pal Wavell if you don’t like that I have an opinion then run along.!!!
Wavell Wakefield said | January 21st 2010 @ 7:53am | Report comment
Actually not a single person has been rude to you on this thread, Ora.
pothale said | January 21st 2010 @ 7:51am | Report comment
I sound “somewhat moderate and witty”?
Why thank you, Ora. Never thought that I’d be getting compliments on the Roar.
I should reply in kind by telling you what happens with the frog.
It never moves or jumps. It just sits there and grows accustomed to the increasing heat until without knowing it, it is boiled alive.
Try the story out on your 7 year old daughter and then ask her which she thinks you are – the frog or the pot of water. You might be quietly surprised at the answer.
(My money is on the pot.)