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The Crowd Says (246) | Page 1 of Comments

• kingplaymaker said | January 14th 2010 @ 8:58am | Report comment

  How sad for England that out of the three league converts last year, Hape, SBW and Gasnier, we end up with by far the least talented of them.

  However, he’s still much better than any English 12.

  Reply
  • 

    Joh4Canberra said | January 14th 2010 @ 11:49pm | Report comment

    Yeah, well, of the three he’s the only one who’s eligible to play for England anyway. I don’t think any of those three has an English-born parent or grandparent which means that the only way they could qualify is three years’ residency in England (and most of Hale’s residence period was spent playing RL). SBW and Gaz are in France (so no chance of qualifying for England on the grounds of residency) and in any event haven’t even been there for three years yet (so not yet eligible for France on the grounds of residency). At the moment Gaz is eligible for Australia only, while SBW is eligible for NZ (birth), Australia (residency) and Samoa (parents/grandparents).

    Reply

    • Jannerboyuk said | January 15th 2010 @ 1:53am | Report comment

      Is the residency rule just being in a place whatever sport an individual has been playing? i dont know why but i assumed they had to have been playing rugby union for that time.

      Reply
      • 

        Joh4Canberra said | January 18th 2010 @ 8:03am | Report comment

        The residency rule is what it says on the tin: residency. There is no requirement to play three years’ worth of rugby union (or any sport for that matter).

        Reply

• Terry Kidd said | January 14th 2010 @ 9:16am | Report comment

  Hello KO are you back on deck? Do you have any comments on the squad?

  Reply

• Sam Taulelei said | January 14th 2010 @ 9:42am | Report comment

  Say it aint so, another Kiwi selected for England.

  Reply

  • Dean Pantio said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:53am | Report comment

    England raping the Islands again.

    Reply

• Grandpabhaile said | January 14th 2010 @ 10:10am | Report comment

  It seems that KO is gone forever from the Roar.

  But he does have a twin brother who has appeared relatively recently on the forum.

  Reply

• Terry Kidd said | January 14th 2010 @ 10:16am | Report comment

  Okey dokey …. does he have any other comments on the squad? Does he have the same level, or better, insight on rugby matters in the NH as his twin? Tis good to see that the family is still represented here … lol

  Reply

  • Grandpabhaile said | January 14th 2010 @ 10:26am | Report comment

    You’ll have to ask him – maybe he’ll volunteer of his own accord.

    Reply

    • Wavell Wakefield said | January 14th 2010 @ 11:10pm | Report comment

      Ahoy hoy all. A reasonably solid squad. The injured parties are returning and there’s a good mix of experience and inexperience. There’s a few stodgers: Payne, Deacon, Hipkiss and Banahan, but they’re unlikely to feature, so I’m not going to complain until the 6N starts. Better to be positive, I suppose. Anyway, Sheridan, White and Ellis are likely to be removed due to injury, so I wait with baited breath to see the replacements.

      I have a sneaking suspicion that England will have a good 6N. The only problem is the balance of the team. Will Wilkinson be able to work with Flutey? Personally I’d rather jettison Wilkinson to the bench and start Flood, who is a far, far better attacking fly half. I’m pleased that Hape is there. He chose to play union to qualify for England so he deserves the benefit of the doubt. He has been very good so far and deserves a shot. It’s interesting that kingplaymaker compares him to SBW and Gasnier, when SBW has been a complete non-event for Toulon and Gasnier has been hit and miss on the wing at Stade. Hape may be the lesser of the three league players but currently he is by far the best union player of the three.

      Oh, Steve Borthwick hasn’t been confirmed as captain. Interesting methinks.

      Reply

• Jay said | January 14th 2010 @ 10:49am | Report comment

  rubbish centre in league.

  england’s rugby side is following their cricketers..

  Reply

• kingplaymaker said | January 14th 2010 @ 10:54am | Report comment

  Grandpabhaile I wonder who that is..

  Jay Hape was a good but not outstanding centre in league, he wasn’t that bad.

  As I say it’s a shame we have to make do with less than the best..but hang on, he’s probably better than Ryan Cross! If you want second-rate league converts.

  Reply

  • Wavell Wakefield said | January 14th 2010 @ 11:12pm | Report comment

    You were demanding his inclusion months ago, as I recall, so pretty pointless negativity.

    Reply

• hutch said | January 14th 2010 @ 1:16pm | Report comment

  why would a country with supposedly so many rugby union players need to keep picking players from other countries?

  Reply

• Stash said | January 14th 2010 @ 6:52pm | Report comment

  Flutey has been a good player for England – makes one scratch their heads how he even got lost to NZ.

  2 ex-league players being called up for the national Union team – oh dear, not a good indication of depth. Still Johnson has to do something- his record is looking almost as sad as Robbie Deans.

  Reply

  • Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 5:54am | Report comment

    pretty simple really Stash,
    There are better players than Flutey playing the game in New Zealand, he was never going to make the All Blacks hence the reason why he left.

    Reply

    • Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 5:57am | Report comment

      Based on his form and th all blacks current centre pairing, one could imagine how things might have been different……….

      Reply

      • Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:05am | Report comment

        One could also compare the two hemispheres and say one is complacent with mediocrity

        Reply

      • Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:06am | Report comment

        In reality there probably aren’t better 12s than Flutey playing the game in NZ beyond Nonu, and he is a totally different type of player and thus any comparison is redundant. If Sam Tuitopou managed to accumulate 10 or so caps at 12 the mind boggles. The crux of the matter is that Flutey played 9, 10, 12 and 15 for Wellington and the Hurricanes, and that isn’t good for the development of a player. He came to England, played 12 for a few seasons and developed as a player. McGeechan seriously considered starting him at 12 for the Lions prior to his injury, and we saw in his fleeting Lions appearances just how good a footballer he is. I agree with Pajovic. Were he playing in NZ the way he was in England and Europe then his footballing skills would most likely have been considered by Henry. Nonu’s run at 12 has certainly impacted upon the way that NZ play.

        Reply

        • Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:16am | Report comment

          You see thats were I think you are wrong, i personally believe Flutely is made to look that much better than he really is because he is not coming up against too many quality centers in the north. He is made to look so much better by the mediocrity that is the English team at present lets face it every team needs a star and England is surely lacking here at the moment and are desperate to put someone on a pedestal.
          Riki wasn’t given the chance to cement a position in New Zealand because most rugby minds did not think he was good enough to take it to that next level. In New Zealand he was only ever going to be a utility player nothing more.
          Riki is going to have to a lot more than make the bench and the occassional start for an English team before you will convince many Kiwis let alone our Sanzar partners that he is one of the best centres in the world.

          Reply

          • Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:23am | Report comment

            Flutey embarassed Olivier and Fourie. He made them look bad players. That’s good enough for me. He hasn’t had the opportunity to play SH opposition for England since his debut, so it would be foolish to make any wild claims about his ability as a test rugby player.

            How is a player made to look good when he’s surrounded by mediocrity? It’s far more logical to suggest that a poor team makes good players look worse.

            Who is desperate to put Flutey on a pedestal?

            Who has to convince the Sanzar partners anything? The best back play this year has come from European players. The best backs in the world are European.

            Who said that Flutey is one of the best centres in the world?

            P.S. IF you’re argument had consistency and English rugby was so poor then a players like Sam Tuitopou and Greg Rawlinson would surely be the best players in their league. No?

          • Viscount Crouchback said | January 15th 2010 @ 9:50am | Report comment

            Too facile. An Englishman could equally turn around and argue that Kiwi rugby is mediocre because Mauger hasn’t cut the mustard in the Premiership. The truth is that Flutey has improved immensely since he came to England, just like Mike Catt and (in another sport) Kevin Pietersen.

            Indeed, Pietersen is a useful example. He batted at 9 for Natal and even his own school coach didn’t rate him as a batsman but I don’t see too many South Africans doubting his quality nowadays, dodgy present form notwithstanding. They accept that he “trained on” in England, just as Flutey has “trained on”.

            Sport isn’t simple. Some players develop later. Some players thrive in a different type of environment. Some players need a certain type of coach to get the best out of them. It’s naive to dismiss a player’s talent because he wasn’t a superstar for the Canes at the age of 24.

          • Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:01am | Report comment

            What is naive Viscount is for you to come in here and insinuate I have dismissed Rikis talent.
            That couldn’t be further from the truth.
            What I have said is he has not played the best in the world yet lets wait and see how he goes up against the likes of the big three southern teams.
            Also I said he would not get into the All Blacks and at the same time I have said on a few occasions he is a good player just I personally don’t believe he is good enough to make the All Blacks is it really that hard for people to accept someone having a differing opinion because as of yet it is only the northerners who seem to have an almighty problem with it.

        • Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:21am | Report comment

          Very constructive stuff Ora. Please, for the sake of my sanity, please, if at all possible leave ‘hemisphere chat’ out of any thread involving me. Anyways, back to rugby, I agree with Wavell exactly on this one. Flutey was a victim of positional selection. Players develop. They don’t just fall off a production line as the finished article like an action man in a shop. Ample time to develop in a position, the right players supporting you and personal confidence are the holy trinity of the making or the breaking of a player. Circumstance plays a huge part. There is no way Henry wouldn’t have at least considered him based on the form he showed last season.

          As an aside, Ora, can you please name your top 3 dynamic centre partnerships in world rugby?

          Reply

          • Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:04am | Report comment

            How about you name them pajovic,
            I have never once said any partnership was better than the next I have simply stated Flutey would not make the ABs on his current form and there would be competition from other Kiwis for the centre position which is firmly cemented by Nonu at present.

            And also if you actually read the posts I have written instead of moving the goalposts to suit your argument, I did in fact state that Flutey was not seen worthwhile in developing in one position because the AB selectors did not think he had the ability to transform nor did they even contemplate using him as a utility. So they may have made the wrong decision but we will never know until Flutey takes the field against the best will we as is in the Autumn internationals he barely played. So he has gone on to star in the UK and the english environment but tell me something what has he and England achieved since he made the cut?

        • kingplaymaker said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:39am | Report comment

          Wavell Luke Mcalister’s a worse 12 than Flutey then I suppose?

          Reply

          • Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:50am | Report comment

            Not sure how you came to that conclusion? I’m not sure what you’re talking about?

          • Dean Pantio said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:58am | Report comment

            Because, Wavell, you stated “In reality there probably aren’t better 12s than Flutey playing the game in NZ beyond Nonu”. McAlister is playing in New Zealand.

          • PastHisBest said | January 15th 2010 @ 9:24am | Report comment

            Yes, very convenient WW. Selective memory?

          • Grandpabhaile said | January 15th 2010 @ 9:52am | Report comment

            Well to answer the question from kingplaymaker – McAlister is possibly worse than Flutey.

            Flutey played well for England last season and on the Lions tour. McAlister didn’t set anybody on fire.

            On recent play from them both, I’d rate Flutey better. He has made a difference to Brive on his return to them in their last two matches, and was up against some top form players in current champions Perpignan in his first match.

        • ohtani's jacket said | January 18th 2010 @ 10:25pm | Report comment

          Wellington wasn’t a great place for Flutely to play since Umaga, Nonu and Smith all belonged to the same club. He wouldn’t be an All Black at any point if he’d stayed in NZ. As it is, he got the chance to play Test match rugby for another country and I don’t see why anyone would rubbish that. He’s played well for England.

          Reply

      • Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:11am | Report comment

        Let me rephrase that,
        Ireland a step above the rest of what europe has to offer at present then again the did only draw with a woeful Australia. france deemed the best europe had come the end of 09 were routinely thrashed by the All Blacks in their last meeting at home in France, I’m not sure how many games Riki Flutely and England won in the November tours but I bet it doesn’t come close to the New Zealanders and their average centre pairing as you infer.

        Riki is a good player don’t get me worng however he isn’t good enough to make the All Blacks.
        one could argue which hemispheres competition is stronger until the cows come home but I think with the current IRB rankings this only confirms which competition is stonger at present.

        Reply

        • Colin N said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:17am | Report comment

          “Ireland a step above the rest of what europe has to offer at present then again the did only draw with a woeful Australia.”

          But they beat South Africa, as did France, widely regarded as the best team this year,which makes your argument redundant.

          Reply

          • Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:52am | Report comment

            No Colin it does not make my argument redundant at all, it’s no surprise the barmy army has jumped all over this like a little boys club at all. I have said Riki is a good player however he has not been tested by the best and it is ludicrous to even suggest he would walk into an AB side who absolutely hammered France who as yourself have stated were regarded as the best team in Europe come years end.
            There are some very good 12s who are eligible for the All blacks and Riki is hardly a shoe in.

        • Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:17am | Report comment

          Ireland and France has absolutely nothing to do with Riki Flutey. Riki Flutey didn’t play in the AIs. That Dan Carter and Donald played 10-12 during the 3N and that Ellison was seriously considered suggests that there has been a problem with the 12 slot since the departures of McAlister and Mauger. Rugby fans know that Henry preferred an intelligent footballer at 12. Flutey is an intelligent footballing 12. What does that have to do with Ireland and France? What does the form of NZ have to do with Nonu? What does Ireland drawing with Australia have to do with that?

          One could argue about the hemispheres but one doesn’t care too as the subject is boring and totally and completely irrelevant to the discussion. It seems that you are instigating that old chestnut. Next you’ll tell us that Ireland has never ever beaten NZ.

          Reply
          • 

            pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:31am | Report comment

            (Ahem – he said jumping in from stage left….)

            Surely you mean NZ has failed to beat Ireland all of the time?

            Be at ease, all England fans. Your time has come in 2010.

            I can confidently predict Johnson is going to be knighted by the end of this Six Nations as they take home the Championship in swaggering style having defeated Les Bleus in front of their home fans in a final crunch match.

            Johnson has enough players available to him – good ones – to do the job. That’s who I’m putting my money on. I also have a small wager in place that Borthwick will not stay as captain.

            France are going to be toughing it out with them for top spot – Lievremont needs to bring home the bacon in France.

            Both coaches are the ones most under pressure to deliver.

            Kidney should have other priorities this year, in my view. He needs for Ireland to have a good Six Nations on the back of good performances by the provinces in Magners, Amlin and Heinken. But he also needs to develop a few players in the squad for WC 11, and if that comes at a cost of losing a 6N match or two, so be it.

            Ireland need to win three away games before the Autumn Internationals – France, Australia and New Zealand – and I think that should be the main target for this year alongside the development of some of the younger/newer players.

            Unlikely to be a Grand Slam this year, I think. There’ll be games taken off each other, and it’ll be settled on points. It may come down to how many England, France, and possibly Ireland, can put past Italy, Scotland and Wales. The BBC have got it right in putting ‘Le Crunch’ as the final match of the series.

          • Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:41am | Report comment

            It is very relevant because it shows the quality of 12s Flutely is measuring himself against week in week out,
            As for the suppossed problem NZ has with the 12 spot I see it more so as Henry and co developing some stronger players in that position that are of equal or not better quality than Nonu. Dan carter was never seriously going to be a 12 and only a fool would even think he was. Ellison is a young and up and coming player who has a long way to go in his career and is a more worthwhile investment and the kid has class a few more seasons and he will be worldclass. Macca come back somewhat underdone and then had a 3 month layoff inbetween seasons. When he is onsong even he would no doubt keep Flutey out of a AB team. Mauger it seems is destined for a return to NZ rugby but don’t let that get in the way of your thinking. Are you now going to tell me that you believe Flutey to be a step above him also……

            Like I said Flutey is a good player but unfortunately I do not believe him to be as good as some of you like to think he is.

        • Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:31am | Report comment

          Ora, ‘France routinely thrashed by NZ’? Do you follow ties between these sides? Didn’t France beat NZ in NZ this season? Did you see France’s performance v the Boks?

          Had you watched the ‘mediocrity that is the English team’ (no arguements there btw) this Autumn, you would realise that Flutey did not feature. Did you follow any of the Autumn tests?

          Reply

          • Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:49am | Report comment

            Yes I did follow the Autumn tests Pajovic that is why I am disputing many of your claims he is oh so great thye guy barely played go back and reread my post instead of changing it into what you would like it to read.
            Also you will see that I was talking about the Autumn test when I said France was routinely thrashed at home and at the time they were rated the best team in Europe more than anything due to their first up win in the June international over a New Zealand team with 11 changes to their match day 22 but thats right the ABs aren’t allowed excuses or warranted that reason nor the fact they were [playing their first internationals for the season. Also for a second string side to only have lost to france by such a small margin the best in Europe as many deemed them was an achievement in itself is it not.
            What I am trying to say is puit it all in context before you start brandishing players as the best when in fact they have not played the best it really is that simple
          • 

            pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:56am | Report comment

            “11 changes to their match day 22″ line up against France?

            Nonsense – they put out the best team they had available and many of that side went on to play in the Three Nations. This kind of piffle excuse-making wouldn’t be tolerated from other sides.

          • Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:07am | Report comment

            The only nonsense pothale is the inability of some people to read the post,
            Like I said the All Blacks were decimated by injury and players unavailability.
            It was in no way the best team the All Blacks could’ve fielded however it was the best at the time due to the circumstances mentioned above.

          • Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:15am | Report comment

            Ora, I am still waiting with baited breath for your top 5 centre pairings in world rugby! Dazzle me!

            As for your Barmy Army assertions, I am not English. I’m guessing your an Antipode though? Kiwi??? Am I warm? Or red hot? Hot as in as hot as the next ‘second string’ 11′s centre pairing that Henry will unleash on a furtive France next time round?

          • Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:28am | Report comment

            Pajovic like I said how about you name yours.
            I have never questioned any pairing in this thread nor have I even tried to?
            What I have done is said Flutey would not walk into the ABs like you and the Northern boys club like to think he would.
            So how that has in turned lead to pairings only you can answer yourself. To be honest i have no interest my only interest is and only is the fact that you and a some northerners seem to think Flutey is top of the class when he has barely even played an international in recent times
          • 

            pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:32am | Report comment

            That’s still nonsense. There wasn’t 11 changes to their match day 22. They were without a few key players, same as the French. It happens in rugby. It was their first match against a tired French side. That evened it up. And they came good in the second match. Get over it, they lost fair and square to a better team.

            And France weren’t “routinely thrashed at home” either by NZ in the Autumn. France don’t get routinely thrashed at home. Which makes the NZ win all the more compelling.

          • Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:49am | Report comment

            How about you get over it Pothale, i was putting it in context but your usual resentment to anything NZ rugby has once again came screaming to the forefront. New Zealand lost to france I never said there was an issue with it however i did say put it in context. New Zealand then went on to win the second june test then ventured north and absolutely humiliated the French team on home soil. So maybe it is you who should get over it. I see that there is referral to to Ireland and the All Blacks record here brought up by the northern boys. So the ABs may not have won every match big deal, however what really grates with you and the others is that Ireland has never beaten them.

• Pajovic said | January 14th 2010 @ 8:19pm | Report comment

  Ideally, from that squad I would like to see a team of:

  Sheridan
  Hartley
  Wilson
  Shaw
  Lawes
  Croft
  Moody
  Haskell

  Care
  Wilkinson
  Cueto
  Flutey
  Tait
  Ashton
  Armitage

  which i think is pretty decent and at least has some dynamism up front and some pace in the backs

  Unfortunately we all know Johnson will play:

  Payne (as Sheridan is injured)
  Hartley
  Wilson
  Shaw
  Borthwick
  Croft
  Moody
  Easter

  P.Hodgson
  Wilkinson
  Cueto
  Flutey
  Hipkiss
  Banahan
  Armitage

  Payne has to be the worst player in the 6 nations and Banahan, Hipkiss and Hodgson must be the three slowest backs in international rugby. Banahan has the turning circle of Emile Heskey.

  Just you wait, England will have at least 3 or 4 more injuries before it starts. If either Shaw or Moody go down then England are completely as sea.

  Reply

  • Wavell Wakefield said | January 14th 2010 @ 11:16pm | Report comment

    I think Hodgson is a good 9, Pajovic. He commands the pack well, and is technically accurate. Care has looked bewildered this season at Harlequins.

    I agree about Shaw, but have hopes that Lawes can grow into his position. I don’t agree about Moody. England controlled the ruck contest last 6N with Worsley at 7, so a natural 7 is not a necessity. France, Italy and Ireland don’t play natural 7s, so were Worsley (injured) and Moody unavailable then I’d consider playing Haskell there.

    Banahan is perhaps one of the worst test wingers ever. It doesn’t help when you have people like Stuart Barnes supporting his inclusion as the new Jamie Roberts.

    Reply

    • Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 12:12am | Report comment

      Interesting points Wavell, however I don’t agree with your point about Care, he makes loads of breaks and causes problems when I see him play for Quins and his tactical kicking is top drawer for a scrum half.

      Hodgson is a solid club player, nothing more, he is never an international scrum half. Just being a “good talker” shouldn’t get you in the england team, especially when we have got a load of exciting, attacking young scrum halves like Care, Simpson, Youngs and Young coming through. Same goes for Ellis who has completely lost his running game since his knee injury

      I rate Haskell but he is not in the same league as Moody as a 7. He was England’s best player in the autumn by about 3 country miles. Along with Shaw, Sheridan and maybe Flutey, Englands only world class players. Sounds like he is considering dropping Borthwick for Lawes though because has not confirmed the captaincy and also sounds like he may play Tait at 13 which is very good news. All we need now is for Tim Payne to get injured and England could be in business, whih would make for an interesting 6 nations Series.

      I still fancy Ireland though.

      Reply

      • Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 12:42am | Report comment

        I think Care poses a threat around the ruck, and he is inventive with the ball, but he is still making the same error of judgements and giving away the same silly penalties that he was giving away two years ago, Pajovic. I think that Hodgson is sometimes unfairly seen as a solid player simply because he does so many things well. He is also a good breaking scrum half, like Care, and with a pack that is comparatively inexperienced, England, IMO, could do with a player to cajole and galvanise the big men into the right areas. I think his consistent form at least entitles him to a run of games. Simpson and Youngs etc may be the long-term options but I don’t think they’re the right men for now whereas I really do think that Hodgson could organise the way England play like the way he does at London Irish.

        I wouldn’t compare Haskell and Moody as 7s, Pajovic, but I don’t think a groundhog type of 7 is a necessity in the 6N. The SH breeds those players but the 6N doesn’t. Perhaps using him at 7 might negate his dynamism. Also, last season Worsley did a lot of tight work at the ruck that Haskell may not be able to. It’s just a thought and might be useful were England looking to score some tries against Scotland or Italy. The question is whether England could play the way they did last season this season with Moody instead of Worsley. They’re such different players.

        I hope that Borthwick is dropped. He’s had a good season in the GP (including totally outplaying Nick Kennedy), but surely he is one of the least athletic second rows currently playing test rugby?! He’s small, underpowered and insists on carrying the ball so close to the rucks. Such decision making is perplexing, and it makes me worry about whether his ego is affecting the way England play. I don’t think referees have much of a relationship with him either. However, I’m also not sure whether Lawes is ready for test rugby in the lock position. Stuart Barnes and Stephen Jones recently labelled him as the best second row in the GP, which is patently ridiculous given that he has been playing flanker recently. As much as it pains me to say it Louis Deacon and Steve Borthwick have been the best locks in the GP this season. Geoff Parling too. I would like to see him given an opportunity at some point.

        Agree about Payne. Jon Golding has a fabulous work rate but I think he’s injured (?).

        Agree about Ireland. They don’t have a fun draw but they are a very, very good outfit.

        Reply

        • Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 1:38am | Report comment

          yeah Golding is good, does a lot of work around the park and can scrummage (i.e. he is the opposite of Payne) but guess what…….. your right……he’s injured!

          Borthwick and Deacon are good solid premiership men but neither have the size to play the Botha/Shaw role at international level and neither are even remotely athletic. Parling is the same, not an international. The man to watch out for is James Gaskell at Sale, only 19, is a little light but is still holding his own in the forward slug-fest that is the premiership, will be very good when he fills out a bit.

          as for scrum half, you will never convince me that Paul Hodgson is anything other than solid. he might make the odd break now and again for London Irish but only if the game is stretched and there are acres of space, Care can makes breaks from nothing when the game is tight. if England are playing a solid, kicking fly-half like Wilkinson they need to balance it with a creative scrum half. Will really annoy me if we have an era of Paul Hodgson blocking the progress of all the good young scrum halves we have coming through just because he talks a lot in training

          Payne vs Hayes at twickenham – the battle of the two worst scrummagers in the 6 nations will be worth the entrance fee alone.

          What do you think Wavell? What are the potenially key clashes in the Ireland clash? Can irelnd find a quality front row?

          Reply

          • Colin N said | January 15th 2010 @ 4:07am | Report comment

            Care said a while back that he had been told to hold back his natural game for England. When he plays for Quins he likes to speed the game up, take quick taps from penalties etc. Sometimes it’s the wrong thing to do and he needs to find a balance, but he’s an exciting player to watch.

            When he first came into the England side, he did what he did for Harlequins, but those risks he takes for them hasn’t quite worked for England. He came under heavy fire for this and thus was told to tone his game down. He’s looked a shadow of the player since and now hardly ever looks for the gap in England colours. Hodgson’s a better organiser and passer and gets the ball out quicker than Care, which means he’s more suited for the role for now, unless Care is allowed to let loose.

            I also think the other Hodgson (Charlie) should have been called up to the elite squad, but there you go, you can’t have everything.

          • Ian Noble said | January 15th 2010 @ 9:23am | Report comment

            P

            Care plays a high tempo game as do Quins and with Evans at fly half it dovetails neatly. The problem with Wilko is that a high tempo game is a problem for him, he is not a natural runner and makes very few if any dynamic breaks. He is an excellent game manager, although I feel his kicking out of hand is inconsistent. MJ has to decide whether to go for a high tempo game or go for a predominately conservative game plan and play the %s. I suspect expendiency will win out and he will go for the %s because although they talk about the expansive game in the limited time available it is virtually impossible to coach an expansive game when players come together so infrequently particularly as the AIs were so disrupted by injury to key players. I suspect that MJ will go for Hodgson and Wilko with Care and Flood on the bench.

            Personally I would go for Care and Flood from the outset with the Care/Easter fulcrum at the base of the scrum being key to controlling the ball out of the scrum where a good understanding between 8 and 9 is so critical. Why Flood because I think he would be on the same wavelength as Care and would be faster and more creative and anticipate Care’s sniping around the fringes with the ability to give Flutey the space to open up to Moyne, Ashton/Cueto, Tait and Armitage, all flyers if given the space.

            I would leave Gaskell to develope in the U20s, there are a number of potentially exciting young players in this squad who are already playing in the GP. They need to play together as they will provide the back bone of future England squads. It is his first season in the GP and as proven elsewhere he may suffer from 2nd season syndrome. Lawes seems to have made the leap forward from U20′s but it is pretty rare phenomenon.

          • Viscount Crouchback said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:03am | Report comment

            I couldn’t agree more with WW. Danny Care is a lamentable player. In fact, he is one of the worst scrum halves I’ve ever seen in an England shirt and epitomises the new breed of player who are picked solely for their physical qualities – in Care’s case, speed – and have no rugby nous whatever.

            It’s not enough to be able to run fast. To play 9, you need some rugby intuition. You need to know when to rumble on in the tight and when to go wide; when to make a break and when to play safe; when to tap and when to slow down and take the pen. Care hasn’t a clue about any of these things. He simply cannot manage a game. His forwards bully him when he should be bullying his forwards. And he’s so, so slow to remove the ball from the base of the ruck.

            Hodgson is no great shakes, but he’s a proper scrum half. Let him occupy the shirt until one of Simpson, Young and Youngs demands inclusion.