Kiwi Hape in England’s Six Nations squad
By AFP, 14 Jan 2010
- Tagged:
- Andrew Sheridan, Ben Foden, Chris Ashton, Courtney Lawes, Dan Hipkiss, Danny Care, David Wilson, Delon Armitage, Dylan Hartley, England rugby, Harry Ellis, International Rugby, James Haskell, Jordan Crane, Julian White, Lee Mears, Lewis Moody, Louis Deacon, Mark Cueto, Mathew Tait, Matt Banahan, Nick Easter, Paul Hodgson, Riki Flutey., Rugby Union, Shontayne Hape, Simon Shaw, Six Nations, Steve Borthwick, Steve Thompson, Tim Payne, Toby Flood, Tom Croft, Ugo Monye
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Former New Zealand rugby league international Shontayne Hape was named on Wednesday in England’s squad for the Six Nations rugby union tournament.
The 28-year-old Hape, uncapped in union, was joined in the 32-man squad selected by England manager Martin Johnson by another former rugby league player who has yet to make his England debut in Northampton’s in-form wing Chris Ashton.
But backs Danny Cipriani and Shane Geraghty missed out on selection for the senior squad and were included instead in the second string Saxons party.
Nick Easter, Delon Armitage, Riki Flutey and Toby Flood, who all missed England’s disappointing November campaign through injury, were though included in the senior squad.
England, who managed just one try in three Tests in November, during a win over Argentina that fell between defeats by Australia and New Zealand, begin their Six Nations campaign at home to Wales on February 6.
© AAP 2012England squad
Backs: Delon Armitage, Chris Ashton, Matt Banahan, Danny Care, Mark Cueto, Harry Ellis, Toby Flood, Ben Foden, Riki Flutey, Shontayne Hape, Dan Hipkiss, Paul Hodgson, Ugo Monye, Mathew Tait, Jonny Wilkinson. Forwards: Steffon Armitage, Steve Borthwick, Jordan Crane, Tom Croft, Louis Deacon, Nick Easter, Dylan Hartley, James Haskell, Courtney Lawes, Lee Mears, Lewis Moody, Tim Payne, Simon Shaw, Andrew Sheridan, Steve Thompson, Julian White, David Wilson.
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- Andrew Sheridan, Ben Foden, Chris Ashton, Courtney Lawes, Dan Hipkiss, Danny Care, David Wilson, Delon Armitage, Dylan Hartley, England rugby, Harry Ellis, International Rugby, James Haskell, Jordan Crane, Julian White, Lee Mears, Lewis Moody, Louis Deacon, Mark Cueto, Mathew Tait, Matt Banahan, Nick Easter, Paul Hodgson, Riki Flutey., Rugby Union, Shontayne Hape, Simon Shaw, Six Nations, Steve Borthwick, Steve Thompson, Tim Payne, Toby Flood, Tom Croft, Ugo Monye
January 14th 2010 @ 8:53pm
Billo said | January 14th 2010 @ 8:53pm | Report comment
Hape has had a fine season for Bath, and looks like one of the few inside centres in the Guinness Premiership who can combine sleight of hand and foot to create space, which is at a premium in the competition this season.
January 14th 2010 @ 10:37pm
Ian Noble said | January 14th 2010 @ 10:37pm | Report comment
Billo
I agree with you. When Bath played Quins I thought he was the best Bath player, not only did he create space for the rest of the back line but he has a lovely pair of hands and balance and was always a threat. I also like his attitude. He terminated his contract with the Bulls and spent the majority of his first 18 months playing in Bath’s second team and on the bench learning the game. His promotion direct in the top squad is a surprise but I suppose bearing in mind his age he needs to be tested quickly at the highest level. There is plenty of time for Waldouck, Turner-Hall et al to gain more experience at club level and in the Saxons.
Sam T
I have no problem with players born outside England playing for the national side. Indeed the majority of the other major rugby nations do not show any reluctance in introducing players born outside their country, of which the AB’s and the W’s are prime examples.
January 15th 2010 @ 12:29am
ShaghaiDoc said | January 15th 2010 @ 12:29am | Report comment
Will the last English cricketer or rugby player representing, please turn off the floodlights as he leaves.
January 15th 2010 @ 2:05am
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 2:05am | Report comment
Pajovic,
Neither Deacon or Borthwick are test quality but I feel sorry for Johnson that they have been the best performing locks in the GP. You can’t ignore both of them, but selection of either – even if they don’t make the match day 22 – still elicits criticism. Aside from those two I really think Parling could be a test 5. He’s athletic, always looks to keep the ball alive and is playing in one of the best packs in Europe. Gaskell is another good player, but he’s like a young Tom Croft – he makes no impression at the ruck whatsoever. At least he’s getting regular game time at such a young age.
I don’t think you get to be such an important cog in the London Irish machine by simply being solid, Pajovic. I think he has a lot about him and I think Care is overrated. We’ll just have to agree to disagree until the 6N finishes, I suppose.
I think Ireland could offer a quality front row. Healy is still a young man and could be the new Popplewell. Hayes is a goer but is coming to the end so why not give Mike Ross a go? He’s a pure scrummager, as is Rory Best. I think the real problem with the Irish scrum is that they lack big locks. O’Callaghan is basically a flanker. If Ireland could unearth a huge 4 lock then they’d be in business. After what happened during the SA game I’d be surprised if Ireland can manage to avoid some real scrum drubbings this 6N. Horan and Hayes always managed to find a way but propping is like heavyweight boxing. One day you wake up and it’s gone.
January 15th 2010 @ 3:12am
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 3:12am | Report comment
Gaskell is only 19, which is very young to be playing in the premiership and ridiculously young to be playing second row in the premiership – although i don’t think he’d be playing if he made “no impression at the ruck whatsoever” – he’ll end up about two or three stones heavier than he is now by the time he is 22 so not worried about that at all.
Parling is a journeyman in his late 20s who has spent most of his career playing flanker for Newcastle. Hopefully will be Shaw and Lawes through to the next world cup then Lawes and Gaskell after that, maybe throw in Attwood or Blaze as alternatives in the “enforcer” role.
I think Ireland will win it again but I think they might lose a game, if England play Payne and Wilson Ireland’ scrum will be fine against England but they could be in trouble in the other games, especially with Healy up against Castrogiovanni, Euan Murray, Adam Jones and Sylvain Marconnet. I think England should go horses for courses and play Flatman, Thompson and White against Ireland and just tear their scrum apart, that is their only chance
January 15th 2010 @ 3:36am
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 3:36am | Report comment
Tom Croft was playing and making no impression at the ruck when he was younger, and he still has the same problem. Watch him and Gaskell closely next time you get a chance. Croft gets into excellent positions but is always either held or simply pushed off the ball. Just because Gaskell is starting doesn’t mean that he is not bad at rucking, counter rucking and ball stealing etc.
I don’t agree that Parling is a journeyman. He was an excellent performer at Newcastle, was then recruited by the Tigers (who generally get their recruitment spot on) and has consistently been one of the best Tigers every week. He has usurped Ben Kay and is a key member of one of the best packs in Europe. He has soft hands, runs good lines and tries to keep the ball alive. He has the best carrying and linking game out of all the GP locks. The only other lock who carries like he does is James Hudson.
Wilson is an erratic scrummager but he could be very good, IMO. As soon as he came on versus NZ the scrum improved significantly. Plus he’s in a good forward environment at Bath. I think he’ll be a good test player, and would be inclined to play him ahead of White. With Hartley/ Mears, Wilson, Shaw/Lawes, Croft and Haskell England could field the most dynamic pack in the 6N, so why upset that balance with White? I am a fan of White but with the current problem of inconsistent scrum management by the refs I think it’s a big risk selecting a player simply to scrummage. Added to that White won’t have played (if he’s fit) by that point. Flatman is worth a thought but he seems so injury prone. I feel that if England get their best xv on the field then they have a good chance against Ireland. Ireland are a very good team, but I don’t think they have the all round xv to rout the better teams, thus if England do the right things and play accurately and with pace then they have a reasonable chance, IMO. I’m not sure if Healy is the weak link for Ireland. He’s had some strong tight games for Leinster whose pack has really improved recently. I see the Munster players as being the weak link come scrum time. However, the Munster locks will be pushing the front row, so I suppose it’s irrelevant if I think Healy is or isn’t to blame – he still won’t be getting the right support from behind.
I really don’t believe in the role of the ‘enforcer’. Botha is an enforcer in the traditional sense, but he is severely limited as a player and struggles when presented with more talented players, like Shaw, who are just as physical. I would hope that Lawes could grow into Shaw’s role: setting up rucks or mauls in midfield, slowing down the ruck contest, slowing down opposition mauls and generally getting about as Shaw does. Lawes is just as athletic and dynamic, he just needs an accelerated rugby education. He doesn’t need to be part of a team that is content to set up mini ruck after mini ruck down the blindside.
January 15th 2010 @ 4:00am
Colin N said | January 15th 2010 @ 4:00am | Report comment
“Tom Croft was playing and making no impression at the ruck when he was younger, and he still has the same problem. Watch him and Gaskell closely next time you get a chance”
You’re absolutely correct about Gaskell and playing him at six hasn’t really worked. With Koyamaibole usually playing 8, it’s meant we haven’t really had a workhouse to get quick ball at the breakdown and smash people out of the way. The other problem Sale have had is the lineout and that means Gaskell has to play. But with Carl Fearns coming in at six (the most underrated performer this season), Sale have had a more balanced pack.
Gaskell’s time will come, but I’m concerned about whether Lawes will develop into a Shaw type player. There are times when he roams around the field smashing the ball up, showing good hands and looking like the complete player, like against Munster. But other times he looks completely ineffective.
What team would you like Johnson to put out Wavell/KO?
January 15th 2010 @ 10:13am
Viscount Crouchback said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:13am | Report comment
Good analysis, WW, but two points on Gaskell: (1) He’s only 19. Croft is about 23. Paul O’Connell was also whippet thin at the age of 19 and filled out nicely (albeit he’s no Simon Shaw). I’m pretty sure Gaskell can do likewise if he has to. (2) More importantly, imo, Gaskell is being groomed as a classic middle jumper of the Matfield variety. He doesn’t need to become a big brutish specimen. Indeed, Matfield is very thin, makes very little impact at the ruck, and plays more as a “back four” lock. In fact, he apparently keeps his weight down deliberately because he wants to remain easy to lift.
Gaskell will be fine so long as he plays alongside some beef at 4.
January 15th 2010 @ 10:37am
Ian Noble said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:37am | Report comment
VC
First of all Gaskell, as Kingsley Jones has suggested he would like to take Gaskell out of the firing line and give time to develope. He will bulk out but as you say it must be controlled as if he becomes a gym monkey it will probably adversely affect his speed around the park.
On Danny Care, I am a Quins STH and therefore bias, but as a 23 year old he has proven to be one of Quins most potent forces. He continually outplays his opposite number including Youngs and Simpson, the problem with Quins is that the rest of the back line have not been playing too well partly because the loss of Turner-Hall through injury has been significant. On the England front, he needs more game time and a fly half who complements his style of play, hence the preference for Flood or even Geharty over Wilko. Your comment is attuned to the safe old fashioned England, no adventure, kick to the corners et al…..
January 15th 2010 @ 10:46pm
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:46pm | Report comment
Indeed, Gaskell is a young man, VC, but I would rather he was kept away from representative honours until he either fills out or learns a few ruck secrets. I have noticed that Gaskell is back with the age group sides, which led me to wonder whether or not that would be a good idea. Younger players that excel at a higher level sometimes fall back upon bad habits when reintroduced to rugby with their peers. Obviously with the right coaching age group rugby can be hugely important. It’s certainly worth a thought.
Regarding your point about Gaskell playing with a lump, I agree, which also led me to wonder whether Croft needs such a presence in the back row – Worsley, Easter etc. The worry that I have about Croft is that he doesn’t seem a 5 or a 6 yet. He doesn’t do what a 6 traditionally does. Hence he looked good last 6N when a 6 was playing 7.
January 15th 2010 @ 11:26pm
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:26pm | Report comment
Agreed re Gaskell, he should keep playing at senior level, he needs to don about 3 stone before he will be the finished article but at 19 he has time.
‘Younger players that excel at a higher level sometimes fall back upon bad habits when reintroduced to rugby with their peers’.
Completely true. Gaskell should be out of his comfort zone. It’s the only way he will develop. Protect him sure, but dont send him back down.
Speaking of backrows, I can’t wait to see what sort of beast Ferris will be this year. He blew me away on the Lions tour and is awesome for Ulster.
January 15th 2010 @ 8:16pm
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:16pm | Report comment
I reckon we are putting a little too much emphaisis on the GP, (myself included). International rugby is a different ball game to the GP, particularly in the forwards – you need extra physicality, you need to be a tough **** and you also need to be dynamic because the pace is much quicker than the GP. I stick by my assertions that but Parling and Hudson don’t have it, Lawes and Gaskell potentially do, especially Lawes – he has got a real nasty streak in him, from the Dylan Hartley school of diplomacy.
I reckon England might do well in this 6 nations. Wales lack of form has been wrangling with me and well, I guess I have been alerted to their alarming lack of cover or lack of a squad. They appear to have the kind of depth Ireland had in 2003. I.e. one good first team with little or no cover. France are as of yet an unknown quantity . Realistically, England seem to have a sort of hoodoo over France and can beat them reasonably regularly. I think England, with a decent team, like the one I picked (IMO), will beat Wales, (remember how close a truely dreadful England team ran them last year) in Cardiff, they will beat Scotland and I expect Italy to be total walkovers this year. Dreadful. Flutey embarrassed Olivier and Fourie. He made them That’s good enough for me. He hasn’t had the chance to play SH opposition for England since his debut, but he should have a field day beside the right centre partner against the wearer 6 nations outfits. Not sure if Tait will be up to it, he’s hardly the kind of support that Flutey had in SA but let’s see. It is worth a shot. Flood at ten whould make things a little more interesting and I might slot him in instead of Wilco. Good call lads. Can’t see Johnno diching Wilco though. No chance.
This 6 nations really is a ‘Make or Break’ 6 nations. Ireland really need to sort out their scrum and blood a few more players and settle on a back row. They need to target a win in Paris and away wins in Aus and NZ. That has to be their main objective. But obviously the championship is important too, but they need to take their game to the next level. Wales, will confirm their implosion or not, it’s back to square one for them as Gatland said. They are too reliant on a perennially absent Byrne and a fading Williams who has no real backline support. Martin Willimas although creative is just not abrasive enough at the breakdown. Gatland and Edwards under a lot of pressure. Not looking like such an awesome coaching team right now, maybe they will prove me wrong. Perhaps now is the time to be imploding and not in 2011? Scotland need to win against either England or Wales. France under Lievrement have a lot to prove. Consistency is required but this will be a bi*ch of a 6 nations to achieve that in.
January 15th 2010 @ 4:17am
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 4:17am | Report comment
Agreed about Lawes. You can tell that he hasn’t grown up playing rugby. Agreed about Fearns too.
From fit players in the EPS squad I’d like to see this team:
1. Payne, 2. Hartley, 3. Wilson, 4. Shaw, 5. Lawes, 6. Croft, 7. Moody, 8. Easter,
9. Hodgson, 10. Flood, 11. Monye, 12. Flutey, 13. Tait, 14. Ashton, 15. D. Armitage.
16. Mears, 17. White, 18. Haskell, 19. S. Armitage, 20. Care, 21. Wilkinson, 22. Foden.
I still have doubts about Hartley and Lawes, but I’d rather England picked a more athletic, dynamic pack. With Shaw and Lawes Croft has to play to run the lineout, but I think Haskell provides great dynamism from the bench. Croft can also cover 5 so I’d like to see S. Armitage again, plus I like the idea of two sevens playing at the same time, late into the match (Moody and Armitage). I don’t see the point in putting Hape on the bench, I’d rather he started one of the lesser matches – preferably Italy. My 10 preference is for Flood because he attacks the line. Perhaps further down the line he and Hape could play off each other. Hipkiss is too limited and despite some hit and miss form Tait deserves a run of games simply to prove himself. In an ideal world I’d like to see Golding, Cole, Parling/Hudson involved either from the bench or starting. With the core of the England team returning I think Johnson has an ideal opportunity to mix and match the younger players into the 22. What about you, Colin?
January 15th 2010 @ 6:11am
Colin N said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:11am | Report comment
I would like to have seen Golding if fit and if White is replaced, hopefully Cole will come into the squad as cover. Ideally my lock paring would be Shaw and Lawes, but I can see Borthwick being there. In the back-row I would like to see Haskell, Moody and Easter. I don’t believe Croft is in great form and it could diminish the lineout without him, but Hartley’s a good thrower, Shaw’s a good front jumper and both Lawes and Easter are good operators.
I too would like to see Flood, the second most underrated performer (behind Fearns
) in England. Apart from standing flat, he has good footwork and good distribution. He’s not the quickest but neither are many fly-halves. His link-up with Flutey in the last six nations was the key behind England’s good form IMO.
If Care is allowed to play the way he does for Quins then he would be in my side. If not then I would have Hodgson.
Providing Flutey’s playing well, I would have him in the team alongside Tait. The two best attacking and defensive centres in the squad. Tait’s also been in good form this season. The wingers pick themselves, Ashton’s too inexperiences and Banahan is yet to convince, so it’s Cueto and Monye. I’m unlike many people in the sense I do think there is potential in Banahan, but he hasn’t shown it at international level yet.
Full-backs quite easy – Armitage, Foden on the bench, maybe starting against Italy.
I’m also slightly disappointed that Neil Briggs hasn’t been named in the Saxons squad. He’s been the form hooker in the GP recently. However, there are a couple of weaknesses in his game that need addresing, but I think they’re minor ones.
so:
1. Payne
2. Hartley
3. Wilson.
4. Shaw
5. Lawes
6. Haskell
7. Moody
8. Easter
9. Care/Hodgson
10. Flood
11. Monye
12. Flutey
13. Tait
14. Cueto
15. Armitage
January 15th 2010 @ 6:31am
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:31am | Report comment
Oh yeah… I forgot about Cueto. Pencil him at 14 for me.
Croft hasn’t been that great (prior to his injury), but then I don’t think he was ever that sensational at club level. He does some things very well and is a good athlete but he’s never set the domestic scene alight. I would always pick him over Haskell, however, as Haskell offers excellent impact from the bench but Croft wouldn’t, and I think Croft always has to be in the 22. I’d rather have a player like Croft who could spend the first half contesting re-starts and lineouts (for a man of his ability I rarely see Croft challenging re-starts), and then bring Haskell on. Perhaps to that extent I’d start Wilkinson and look for stability. I’m not sure..
I overlooked the absence of Briggs. He’s worth a punt. I think that Webber is massively overrated.
January 15th 2010 @ 6:42am
Colin N said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:42am | Report comment
Whenever I see Webber he doesn’t play very well, but I only ever see him on the TV. He’s a good thrower (I think) and is powerful, but doesn’t have the all round game of Briggs, but I am biased.
I’m also watching the Saracens – Toulon and the French side must feel the world is against them. They’re down to 13 men and Saracens are still bereft of attacking ideas.
January 15th 2010 @ 6:47am
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:47am | Report comment
The Wasps lineout creaks a lot but whether that is solely down to Webber..? Incidentally, the team with the most lost lineouts is … Sale Sharks. News to me. My main issue with Webber is that he’s hyped as a great carrier, but he isn’t. Neither is Hartley, and he receives the same praise. It’s as if both players have read their press and feel the need to try and overdo what they have been praised for, or perhaps they simply think they’re more powerful than they are. Simply put neither is a punishing carrier in the mould of a Du Plessis or Szarzewski. Both players have soft hands so I’d rather see off-loading than slupming into a defender at speed. Briggs is a far better all round scavenger than the pair.
Saracens are horrible. They’re going to get so many tunings during the warmer months.
January 15th 2010 @ 6:55am
Colin N said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:55am | Report comment
Wasps don’t particularly have good lifters or jumpers, which is needless to say a huge problem.
In regards to their carrying ability is you’ve got to ask yourself whether Webbar could do what Briggs did twice against Harlequins recently and the answer is probably no. That slight problem Briggs has is his scrummaging
January 15th 2010 @ 8:49pm
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:49pm | Report comment
Watched Toulon v Sarries last night and thought Jonny played pretty well, plays a lot flatter for Toulon, and I think Flood is a bit flaky. Jonny’s defence asks a lot of other teams because it cuts off one of the main points of attack. The problem in the autumn wasn’t Jonny, it was that the gameplan was obviously for him to sit back in the pocket and either kick or go wide early rather than standing flat and get people across the gain line. That is what it boils down to really, no matter which players we put out there, our coaching is a disaster. Every single player in the england squad plays better for their clubs. Saying that I’m still undecided over number 10.
I am a massive fan of Flutey, him coming back will make a big difference and England have to go with Tait alongside him. Hipkiss just runs into brick walls all day and gets nowhere. I think Tait has got it all, he just needs a run of games at centre. The supposed question marks over his defence are a complete myth, i don’t think i’ve seen him miss a tackle for about 3 seasons and apparently he has the best strength to weight ratio in the england squad. Hape at outside centre could be an interesting leftfield pick but no way Johnno will have the b*lls to pick him.
Hard to say with Wales, they were missing Phillips, Byrne and Adam Jones in the autumn so will make a big difference if those 3 are back. Don’t think they will have a total shocker but I quite fancy England to beat them in the first game. This will set up a delicious encounter a Twickenham against the Irish. On paper, Ireland should win the grand slam again but either England or France are capable of beating them on a good day, esp if Ireland start sluggishly. Also, Ireland desperately need to sort their scrum out before the world cup. What is imperative is that we see what Cronin can do in the big games. He committed to Connacht for another season last week. His throwing is excellent and his scrummaging is solid too. I just need to see a viable alternative to Best as a replacement hooker for Flan. Likewise, can Court really do it. He was great against Munster in Ravenhill 2 weeks ago, but that was a weakened pack. His whole strength is that he can play tight and loose. Can Ross rediscover his form having left the GP also, can Healy transfer his excellent HC scrummaging to the International scene? The back row will be fine. O’Brien is another brilliant find. It’s getting seriously competitive there.
I’m really looking forward to the 6N starting, just praying for some timely injuries to Payne, Deacon, Hipkiss and Banahan to ensure that Johnson doesn’t completely mess it up.
January 16th 2010 @ 12:52am
Wavell Wakefield said | January 16th 2010 @ 12:52am | Report comment
I don’t think Wilkinson has the attacking instincts to lead England forward. Last night his first option of the match was to drop for goal from 30 metres plus. It reminded me of the Autumn when he kept looking for the drop, and at one stage v NZ didn’t even notice an overlap so fixed was he on kicking a drop goal. The key point was that Wilkinson didn’t even look. Perhaps he was unhappy about what he had outside him in the AIs, but generally he is first and foremost a conservative player, IMO, and I believe that French rugby breeds that conservatism. However, it is necessary to have alternative options and Wilkinson is a better option than Goode. Were I more sure of his ability to lead a line then I’d definitely make him captain over Bad News Borthwick.
January 15th 2010 @ 6:39am
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:39am | Report comment
Pothale,
all of the time that Ireland has played NZ, Ireland has beaten NZ none of the time, every time. You see? HemJ wuz here!
I don’t think there’ll be a GS, and hopefully Borthwick won’t be up to his old tricks (annoying referees, being slow & offering poor banter to the opposition, “Yeah, take some time. You look like you need it!”). Johnson is at the Saracens game tonight though.
As it happens, Pajovic’s comment that England would be stuffed without Shaw or Moody got me thinking about other nations which led me to consider that Ireland really need some more depth in certain positions (something that Johnson said he was after this 6N). Ironically O’Driscoll’s absence might not be felt as much as players like Wallace or Hayes. Going into an important season there is no real back up to 3 or 7 (or O’Callaghan or O’Connell as I write this). Kidney has a good squad of players but the replacements are so inexperienced. So, IMO, Ireland should take the tournament seriously, but I completely agree that their eye should be on the big prize.
January 15th 2010 @ 6:56am
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:56am | Report comment
Interesting selections lads. It will definitley be interesting watch things unfold in the coming months. Although I still stick with my assertation that Johnno will pick the usual stodge. Like I said earlier, Payne has to be the worst player in the 6 nations and Banahan, Hipkiss and Hodgson are three slowest backs in international rugby. I still fancy Ireland to win the championship, but in a series where probably everyone (esp given Irelands fixture schedule) will lose a game, then Ireland’s inability to really bury the bigger teams might catch them on points difference, who might catch them, England France?. I really have no idea what sort of Wales team will turn up next month. I really just have no idea……
January 15th 2010 @ 7:07am
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:07am | Report comment
The bigger problem, Pajovic, is that there is nobody beyond Payne (fit anyhow).
I would hope that Hipkiss doesn’t get a go. Johnson has spoken of it being the right time for Tait to assert himself in the 13 jersey, so hopefully he’ll have five opportunities.
I’m going to make a bold predicition that Banahan doesn’t start – if only for my own sanity.
How France goes is an intriguing question. No Barcella or Traille, and Lievremont loves Traille’s big boot. Mermoz is injured too, so who knows?
January 15th 2010 @ 7:40am
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:40am | Report comment
That’s true re: Payne. Tragic but true nontheless. A fit Sheridan would be nice I agree with the Banahan comment, he was on the cover of Rugby World there a few episodes back and I nearly choked on my airline sambo when read the write up. Somethings I will never understand. I’m enjoying Pothale’s new ELV. And who said the NH boys were all against them?
I’m still unsure about Court, he just blows so hot and cold, he was brilliant against Munster in Ravenhill, but, that was a much weakend munster pack. This 6 nations will make and break a lot of players. I agree with Pothale that Ross seems to be losing form and well, as much as I think. I like Healy and he makes some good plays and has a flankeresque quality about him, but once again, he seems to scrummage like a flanker too sometimes which is a worry!! Still, that can be worked on.
January 15th 2010 @ 8:08am
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:08am | Report comment
Banahan could probably score all the tries in the world against Italy but the Australians just laughed at him. He’s actually slower than Emile Heskey. Mark Lawrenson is probably quicker than him.
Court blowing hot and cold? An Australian prop
The Make or Break 6N. I like that statement. I agree.
January 15th 2010 @ 8:54pm
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:54pm | Report comment
What about Flatman for Payne? I had forgotten about him.
January 15th 2010 @ 10:48pm
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:48pm | Report comment
Injury prone. I don’t think Johnson trusts him, which is ironic given that he tends to get more game time than David Barnes at Bath.
January 15th 2010 @ 11:39pm
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:39pm | Report comment
he had a terrible few years with injury but has been ok the last 2 seasons. he is infinitely better than David Barnes. Nick Wood at Gloucester is even worse. Of the young looseheads, Corbisiero and Golding are both very promising but are injured and Matt Mullan is too small so i’d go with Flatman. He is a top class scrummager, if he gets injured then so be it.
Basically my view is “anyone but Tim Payne”
Just got to pray that Sheridan recovers, he had to have a complete shoulder reconstruction – apparently would have been career ending a few years ago
on the plus side though, Englands crop of props is looking very good post world cup – Sheridan, Golding, Corbisiero, Mullan, Cole, Wilson plus Matt Stevens to come back. Add to that the fact that Hartley is only 23 and they are looking strong in the front row for a long time
What’s your long term prognosis for the irish front row i.e. for 2011? Who ill be there and how will it happen?
January 15th 2010 @ 6:44am
pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:44am | Report comment
Oh. Ok then.
Though I wouldn’t discount Jennings or O’Brien at 7. I think O’Brien is going to do really well this year at club level – and if he’s given time in the green shirt – at test level.
Hayes is the perennial problem. Court is the front runner cos Buckly just isn’t good enough, and Ross seems to have gone backwards at Leinster.
Could we introduce an innovative Irish ELV for the World Cup – no scrums in your own half?
January 15th 2010 @ 7:01am
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:01am | Report comment
Court is a good player. He’s spiteful too. I like that.
O’Brien is worth a shot (McLaughlan too), but the major issues is what type of 7 is more relevant – destructive (H. Brussow) or constructive (M. Williams). A young player like him deserves the entire tournament to test himself, but I can’t see Kidney looking beyond his big guns.
I’m going to enter into an agreement with myself, and you’re more than welcome to join in pothale, Colin, Pajovic etc. I’m going to promise myself that I won’t feed the Hemjay from now on. It’s like eating orange peel. Unecessary and leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
January 15th 2010 @ 7:12am
pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:12am | Report comment
Take your point about destructive v constructive though I thought Brussouw played both roles in some of the matches I watched.
O’Brien is hungry and puts himself about – agressively – so probably falls more into the destructive role – but he’s made a few good carries too. If Cheika gives him more time this season, he may turn Kidney’s head. Maybe if Ireland lose to France in the second round, he might decide to get more experimental for the remaining matches.
January 15th 2010 @ 7:58am
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:58am | Report comment
Yeah, I see what you mean, but I mean in the sense that his first instinct is to slow ball down whearas a player like Williams automatically looks for support to pass the ball to. Do you see what I mean?
Has O’Brien always been a 7, Pothale?
January 15th 2010 @ 8:37am
pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:37am | Report comment
Right – I didn’t understand your definition of constructive. Must watch for that in the next match – not sure if he’ll be playing against Brive – I presume Cheika will want to give Jennings as much game time as possible.
O’Brien has played both 6, 7 and 8 – though flanker is the likely position I presume. He’s another GAA player (from Carlow) who played well at minors level, then made the transfer across to rugby, but retained the handling/catching skills he got from football. He was part of the U-20 Grand Slam squad in 2007. He’s only 23 this year, so he’s a bit of growing and learning to do in the role with Gibbs and Kiss.
January 15th 2010 @ 8:52am
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:52am | Report comment
Jennings could probably go straight into the test team, IMO. I’d forgotten about that sly fellow.
That’s it, maybe I read something about O’Brien previously playing 8 (I read something a while back but can’t for the life of me recall the specifics).
January 15th 2010 @ 9:12pm
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 9:12pm | Report comment
Party to the agreement.
Ona slightly different note, I think Scotland will do ok, they have got a good pack. Both England and Ireland will struggle against them in the scrum – Payne and Healy up against Euan Murray. Splaaat!
Italy seem to be going backwards, Parisse is out, Bortolami is past it, the Bergamascos aren’t first choice for Stade any more. Apart from Castrogiovanni and a few other decent props they are really going to struggle.
Any views?
January 16th 2010 @ 12:42am
Wavell Wakefield said | January 16th 2010 @ 12:42am | Report comment
I’m going to make a prediction about Scotland – their pack will be mauled unless James Hamilton plays in concert with Murray. After the Scotland pack bushwhacked the Springbok pack two seasons ago the general theory is that they have a good scrum, but that theory ignores the fact that Scotland had probably never produced a larger pack than that. With Hamilton absent during the AIs, and with the stick thin Kellock playing behind Moray Low, the Scots were thrown about and their mauling game was almost redundant. Murray will make a difference, of course, but his job will be that much harder if Kellock is chosen to lock the scrum.
Italy have gone backwards at a rate of knots since Mallett took over. They needed a big ideas man, not an insular South African forwards coach.
January 15th 2010 @ 6:56am
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 6:56am | Report comment
1. No, HemJ. Ireland drawing with Australia has no relevance to Flutey’s ability whatsoever. None.
2. What players has Henry developed in the 12 jersey? Carter, Ellison, Donald or MacAlister… Do you mean these players, because I haven’t seen any real development there.
3. The Carter/Donald 10-12 split indicates that Henry was unhappy with his options at 12. The argument is, and I repeat myself here, that Henry prefers a footballing 12, and that Nonu’s presence at 12 had seriously stifled the NZ attack. Thus, had Flutey been playing in the way that he had for a few seasons and on the Lions tour then at some point he would have most likely been considered by Henry.
4. Ellison world class? Really? If Henry was solely interested in long-term development then Tom Donnelly would not be wearing an All Black jersey.
5. You didn’t state that Flutey was a good player.
6. Please follow the threads and read 3 for your assessment of the Mauger situation.
January 15th 2010 @ 7:20am
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:20am | Report comment
Wavell maybe you should take note of your point 6 in relation to point 4.
I said in a few seasons he could be world class I never said he was worldclass now did I, lets use your and your boys clubs notions here. If he is given the chance in one position instead of being used as a utility he will develop will he not???
Oh no thats right that argument can only be used for players in the North silly me
[point 5 again refer to your own point 6 and go back and read the thread I think you’ll find I mentioned Flutey as a good player on more than one occasion!
My reference to Aus and Ire is in relation to Flutey playing in a competition where he is not regularily challenged by better centres O’D aside (who is in my opinion the best in the world), this match said alot about the respective competitions and where the talent in world rugby actually is. Ireland who had a stella season were held to a draw by an Australian team who proberly by their own admissions played one of their worst.
Flutey would not be a shoe in for the NZ team and if he had been even in the slightest don’t you think Henry and Co would have been over in the UK trying to lure him back? No thats right because they have their eye on a much more talented player in Aaron Mauger and they have always maintained a very close relationship with Aaron since he left NZ. But don’t let that cloud your judgement now
January 15th 2010 @ 7:25am
Colin N said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:25am | Report comment
“No thats right because they have their eye on a much more talented player in Aaron Mauger and they have always maintained a very close relationship with Aaron since he left NZ. But don’t let that cloud your judgement now”
Actually, Flutey was seen as a very important age grade player in New Zealand, so he kept Mauger out of his favourite position. There was a very interesting story a few months back in Rugby World about Flutey and his checkered career on and off the field.
January 15th 2010 @ 7:38am
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:38am | Report comment
Age grade whoopie doo, Its senior rugby where you really make a name for yourself and that is where Aaron mauger really came to fruition and this is what really matters.
Flutey has had a very colourful past there is no denying that one noteable case was the Grevious bodily harm charge back in the early 2000′s
January 15th 2010 @ 7:54am
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:54am | Report comment
Ora, how did you morph from Aaron Mauger to GBH? What has Flutey’s past got to do with anything? Jerome Kaino – drink driver, Byrom Kelleher – drink driver? Sitiveni Sivivatu in hot water not to long ago? Robin Brooke is in a bit of mischief too if I’m not mistaken? to name but a few?
Is this really relevant?
January 15th 2010 @ 7:57am
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:57am | Report comment
Oh Pajovic stop trolling for an argument,
I was simply adding to Colins post that he has had an interesting past and named one of the more noteable incidents, you then in turn it into some attack. Seriously mate get a grip what the hell is your problem.
As for Aaron mauger if you had been actually reading and following the thread instead of making up such utter lies and roaring for an argument you would be able to answer that yourself.
January 15th 2010 @ 8:06am
Pajovic said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:06am | Report comment
Ora, what’s wrong with me is that I am in my office, in front of a monitor waiting for comments back on a final version sale putchase agreement on a transaction that has to close tomorrow. I am bored out of my tiny mind. Pre new year, I would probably be outside my office having a cheeky smoke. However new year resolutions dictate that I instead sup on coffee and well, find other things to do. Sadly, I allowed myself to get sucked into a childish tit for tat arguement that ordinarily I would not have done. I feel ashamed and a little dirty I might add.
My final comment is that the rap sheet I listed off there is in fact true. Have a wee google and see.
I am tapping out of this one.
January 15th 2010 @ 10:08am
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:08am | Report comment
How is adding something to what another poster stated a tit for tat argument.
Quite frankly all this is is the usual northern suspects who have got their noses out of joint because a Southern has dared question their thinking
January 15th 2010 @ 11:54am
Colin N said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:54am | Report comment
You said Mauger is a more talented player. Is he? The fact that Flutey was seen as the best second-five in his group, over Mauger, could suggest he is equally or possibly more talented than Mauger? No?
It’s whether they fulfilled that potential and it’s obvious that it’s taken longer for Flutey to do so.
January 15th 2010 @ 7:30am
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:30am | Report comment
I didn’t say that you said he was currently world class either. I questioned your opinion that he would go on to be world class. Btw, it isn’t logical to suggest that he will be world class simply because he plays in a single position. The inference you make, of course, is that it has been suggested that Flutey is world class. It hasn’t. It was stated that Flutey improved quickly because he played in one position, obviously because previously he had been moved about a lot. There is a rather large difference.
Ireland drawing with Australia is irrelevant. However, you keep saying that that game somehow represents the status quo of rugby and yet ignore the fact that SA were thrashed by France and easily contained by Ireland. Your point is wildly irrelevant but it would do you no harm to maintain a consistency.
Nobody stated that Flutey would be a shoo in. Please re-read the arguments pertaining to Mauger, and the broader themes. I’m not going to repeat myself.
January 15th 2010 @ 7:39am
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:39am | Report comment
Like I said all I have to say to you Wavell is refer to your own point 6
January 15th 2010 @ 7:55am
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:55am | Report comment
That makes no sense, just as it didn’t the first time.
Look, Hemjay, I know that there is an anti-NZ bias on the Roar, especially from the NH contributors, I know that NZ aren’t allowed to have injuries, I know that only beating NZ is what counts and I know that people can’t cope when you challenge their perceptions etc. The reason I know all this is because you’ve said it so, so many times before. NZ is the best rugby side in the world, I have no qualms in stating that. In fact I enjoy watching NZ play. Know you know how I feel why don’t you go and ruin another thread, because I can’t politely describe how boring I find your constant tirades on anything involving non-NZ rugby. Everybody engages respectfully and politely with the other NZ contributors like Sam and OJ, so why not take a leaf out of their book.
January 15th 2010 @ 8:03am
Ora said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:03am | Report comment
I find this interesting I have no idea who you are talking about but it is astounding how you have got your nose so far out of joint by myself stating flutely would not make the ABs.
Time to get a grip me thinks Wavell or should I refer to you as Knives Out
January 15th 2010 @ 3:56pm
Zac Zavos said | January 15th 2010 @ 3:56pm | Report comment
Wavell – please stop referring to commenters with other names. Ora is not a previous Roar contributor.
Can I remind you to play the ball not the man in all debates.
January 15th 2010 @ 7:13am
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:13am | Report comment
Yo Ora,
when NZ played France in NZ:
Woodock, Hore, Tialata, Thorn, Ross, Read, Thomson, Messam, Cowan, Donald, Jane, Nonu, Toe’ava, Rokocoko, Muliaina
when NZ played Australia in the last game of the 3N:
Woodcock, Hore, Tialata, Thorn, Donnelly, Thomson, McCaw, Read, Cowan, Carter, Rokocoko, Nonu, Toe’ava, Jane, Muliaina
See any similarities?
January 15th 2010 @ 7:48am
pothale said | January 15th 2010 @ 7:48am | Report comment
Was that the first test line-up WW?
I think this was the second test line-up:
Mils Muliaina (captain), Cory Jane, Conrad Smith, Ma’a Nonu, Joe Rokocoko, Stephen Donald, Jimmy Cowan, Kieran Read, Tanerau Latimer, Jerome Kaino, Isaac Ross, Brad Thorn, Neemia Tialata, Keven Mealamu, Tony Woodcock.
Replacements: Aled de Malmanche, John Afoa, Bryn Evans, George Whitelock, Piri Weepu, Luke McAlister, Isaia Toeava
Muliania, Jane, Cowan, Nonu, Thorn, Ross, Woodcock, Rokococko, Tialata, Read, Toeva – all played in the three matches.
January 15th 2010 @ 8:01am
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 8:01am | Report comment
‘Because, Wavell, you stated “In reality there probably aren’t better 12s than Flutey playing the game in NZ beyond Nonu”. McAlister is playing in New Zealand.’
And McAlister didn’t tour Europe for what reason, Dean? Having stated that had Flutey been playing in NZ with the same level of form that he had at test level and in Europe I hadn’t exactly attached a time scale to my comment. In any case, Flutey’s form in Europe was far superior to that of McAlister’s.
January 15th 2010 @ 11:23am
Dean Pantio said | January 15th 2010 @ 11:23am | Report comment
“And McAlister didn’t tour Europe for what reason, Dean?”
What are you dribbling about? McAlister toured.
January 15th 2010 @ 10:50pm
Wavell Wakefield said | January 15th 2010 @ 10:50pm | Report comment
Slow down, Pantio. Manners cost nothing. My mistake. It was late and I made an error. Regardless, Flutey has been in better form than McAlister. Nice contribution, however, Dean. Thanks man.