Ora: ‘do you know something that we Kiwis don’t do you. Are you in liason with the NZRFU are you?’

Classic Ora, the above statement evokes images of all the world’s Kiwi’s sitting around a camp fire. G Henry asks Ora how his day went, Ora replies that it went well, that his battle with the Northerner still rages despite numerous vitriolic attacks and that people still have difficulty unerstanding him. Ora then askes G Henry how his day was, G Henry replies that ‘ It went well, that he went to the shop, bought milk, brough his watch to get fixed, had a fleeting look at some of the tennis on tv and reiterated his decision not to pick Riki. He also disclosed his ‘inner circle knowledge’ that he, nor any of his AB predecessors, not and NZ coach he knew would ever have picked Riki Flutey. Never ever ever never’.

And so folks, that was the special, warm, fuzzy and wonderful day that boy Ora learned that Riki’s card had been marked and that no one in the AB set up past or present ever for even an iota of a second had ever considered picking Riki…….. Ever.

Ora: ‘But that doesn’t fit your argument at all so you come in here with some ridiculous rant and sarcasm.
You accuse me of saying the same thing I could say likewise for you’.

I have no idea what this means. But if it is a Yoda impression, it is awesome.

The fact – as opposed to other opinion or personal speculation – that Flutey is now selected for England, and therefore couldn’t be selected by the ABs for 2011 seems to have sailed over Ora’s head. Ditto Hape. Albeit Hape’s ability has yet to be proven on a Test stage unlike Flutey.

You make two different points. First of all, you say Flutey wasn’t good enough in NZ to get near the ABs squad. That seems reasonable, most here seem to agree.

You then say that Flutey isn’t good enough now to get in the squad. To back it up, you say that the All Black selectors would have made an approach to him to head back to New Zealand if he had been good enough. I think that’s problematic.

Flutey is one of over a dozen centres England have selected in recent years. He might have stepped up to the Test stage and, like others before him, failed to make an impact. The point is that he showed how good a Test player he could be only after he had committed to England by which point it was too late for the ABs to consider him.

When thinking about whether to commit to England, Flutey would undoubtedly have weighed up his chances of being picked for NZ and decided England offered his best opportunity. You can’t, however, say that he must have decided he had no chance. He would have realized that to play for NZ would have meant finding a team back home and proving himself all over again.

As a professional rugby player, he was being offered a chance to play Test rugby immediately or start a new career path to win selection in NZ. He made his choice.

We don’t know if anyone in the All Blacks set-up did have an eye on Flutey. I doubt it because it is only recently that NZ have considered calling home some of those overseas players (which also obliges them to make concessions to the likes of Carter). They haven’t really looked at anyone outside former ABs so it would only have been tentative contact at most.

Consider, however, what Flutey could possibly have been offered anyway. At most, someone might have hinted he would have a chance at the squad if he could prove himself again in S14. Nick Evans had a spot in the ABs squad but it wasn’t enough to keep him from leaving to pursue his rugby career elsewhere and I’m sure Flutey would have taken that under consideration. That’s no disrespect to the ABs, it’s a simple acknowledgement of how fickle the game can be and why a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush.

I’m sure the fact that Flutey has elected to play for England is enough reason for some AB fans to decide that he didn’t have the right character to be an All Black anyway. I can understand that reaction and it’s all part of what makes conversation between rugby fans a lively affair.

On purely rugby grounds, though, if Flutey had played as well in NZ as he has in England and Lions shirts, I don’t have any doubt myself that he would have been called up for a place in the All Black squad. The only question in my mind is whether he would have secured a regular spot. If he can’t maintain his form at Test level then the answer to that will be an easy “no” but that will also be true for his England place.

Why thank you, Ora. Never thought that I’d be getting compliments on the Roar.

I should reply in kind by telling you what happens with the frog.

It never moves or jumps. It just sits there and grows accustomed to the increasing heat until without knowing it, it is boiled alive.

Try the story out on your 7 year old daughter and then ask her which she thinks you are – the frog or the pot of water. You might be quietly surprised at the answer.

(My money is on the pot.)

So like I have said just above the post which you replied to and much further up the post to your pal Wavell if you don’t like that I have an opinion then run along.!!!

Do you know the old story about what happens if you put a frog into a pot of water, and then slowly heat the water to boiling point?

Where’s your proof that this isn’t true then ?
Come on blow us away with your evidence that Flutey would make the All blacks as too would Hape. Come on sunshine you think you know it all, do you know something that we Kiwis don’t do you. Are you in liason with the NZRFU are you?
Hmmm didn’t think so

As with what you accuse me of your postys are nothing but speculation and your opinion.
This is an opinion site and people are going to have differing opinions. If you cannot accept that why don’t you move along.

Saveyour pathetic little sarcastic rhetoric and attacks, my 7 year old daughter has more maturity about her than you could ever possibly dream of having.
Get a grip and grow up!!!

I agree with your posts except for the following comments:

“They were never on the radar for the ABs and it is highly unlikely either would make the AB team right now neithers form surpasses any of the talent that is already in the squad.”

“The problem here is Pajovic, the selectors do not see either of the two as All Blacks and they never did…..If they were the selectors would have made an effort to get them to come back.”

“So this simple fact you talk about is only possible because they Hape and Flutey are not now nor were they ever wanted by the AB selectors it really is that simple!”

“However reality is they were never on the radar not now not ever.”

I don’t agree with these statements since they are based on a unproven assumption by yourself.

(Unless you’re secretly a spokesman for the AB selectors and have been briefed by them….)

They are ineligible now yes but if they were up to it and not chasing the dollar you could absolutely guarantee they would have been lured home. So this simple fact you talk about is only possible because they Hape and Flutey are not now nor were they ever wanted by the AB selectors it really is that simple!
But that doesn’t fit your argument at all so you come in here with some ridiculous rant and sarcasm.
You accuse me of saying the same thing I could say likewise for you.

Also not sure how long it takes for information to process in your brain but you made a comment
“Can someone post a story about the HC or something so that we can talk about something else???”

Ah hello this is a thread about hape making the England team!!!
Might pay to keep it on track don’t you think ?????

“Both Care and Clegg fell into that cateogory and moved into the Quins academy/development system and mentored by a senior squad member.”

Slightly contradictory don’t you think?

A player can develop when they are 25. Flutey is a prime example.

How is this statement untrue?: ‘They are both off the AB radar because they are not returning to NZ, as Mauger and Hayman probably will do so for RWC 2011′

It makes perfect sense. Just like BOD or Tom Croft are off their radar because they are not eligible, they are off the radar because they will not be eligible for selection for the AB’s – simple really. It’s a statement of fact, which accordingly cannot be said to be untrue.

Ora, you are the most environmentally blogger I have ever come across. You seem to recycle the same point every time you get your crayons out.

Can someone post a story about the HC or something so that we can talk about something else???

“. They are both off the AB radar because they are not returning to NZ, as Mauger and Hayman probably will do so for RWC 2011.”

That is simply untrue.
They were never on the radar for the ABs and it is highly unlikely either would make the AB team right now neithers form surpasses any of the talent that is already in the squad.
As I have stated a few times in this thread already, had the AB selectors thought they were even slightly capable of making the ABs and playing in 2011 they would be trying to lure them back.
Flutey has Nonui, Macca and no doubt Mauger ahead of him not to mention promising youngster Robbie Fruean coming through the ranks.

It is every boys dream to play for the ABs and if we are lead to believe what some posters in here are saying that Hape and Flutey aren’t playing for money then you could guarantee they would both prefer to don the Black Jersey the most famous in world rugby. However reality is they were never on the radar not now not ever.

Re: Northampton – Lawes failed a pre-match fitness test and I believe Brett Sharman is English qualified.

Interesting info, London Irish and Northampton would not meet the RFU benchmark of at least 14 players being England qualified. By the way Stevenson in the Quins squad is an Ulsterman.

Foden (Eng.), Ashton (Eng.), Clarke (Eng.), Downey (Ireland), Reihana (NZ), Geraghty (Eng.), Dickson (Eng.); Tonga’uiha (Tonga), Hartley (Eng.), Mujati (SA), Fernandez Lobbe (Arg.), Kruger (SA), Dowson (Eng.), Best (Ireland), Wilson (Ireland) – 7 English players

Sharman (SA), Waller (Eng.), Vickers (Eng.), Day (Eng.), Gray (Sco.), Dickens (Eng.), Myler (Eng.), Mayor (Eng.) – 6 English players
–
Gloucester 23-8 Biarritz

Morgan (Eng.), Simpson-Daniel (Eng.), Molenaar (Eng.), Fuimaono-Sapolu (Sam.), Vainikolo (Eng.), Robinson (Wales), Lawson, R. (Sco.); Dickinson (Sco.), Lawson, S. (Sco.), Somerville (NZ), Attwood (Eng.), Brown (Eng.), Strokosch (Sco.), Hazell (Eng.), Delve (Wales) – 7 English players

Dawidiuk (Eng.), Wood (Eng.), Capdevielle (France), Eustace (Eng.), Narraway (Eng.), Lewis (Eng.), Burns (Eng.), Voyce (Eng.) – 7 English players

–Leicester 47-8 Viadana

Hamilton (NZ), Tuilagi, A. (Sam.), Hipkiss (Eng.), Vesty (Eng.), Tuqiri (Australia), Flood (Eng.), Youngs (Eng.); Ayerza (Arg.), Chuter (Eng.), Cole (Eng.), Deacon, L. (Eng.), Parling (Eng.), Croft (Eng.), Woods (Eng.), Crane (Eng.) – 11 English players

Davies (Wales), Stankovich (Eng.), White (Eng.), Newby (NZ), Moody (Eng.), Grindal (Eng.), Mauger, A. (NZ), Murphy, J. (Ireland) – 4 English players
–
Stade Francais 15-13 Bath

Maddock (NZ), Stephenson (Eng.), Carraro (Aus.), Hape (Eng.), Banahan (Eng.), Little (Fiji), Claassens (SA); Flatman (Eng.), Mears (Eng.), Wilson (Eng.), Short (Eng.), Grewcock (Eng.), Beattie (Eng.), Salvi (Aus.), Watson (SA) – 9 English players

Dixon (SA), Barnes (Eng.), Jarvis (Eng.), Hooper (Eng.), Skriving (Eng.), Bemand (Eng.), Davis (Eng.), Cuthbert (Eng.) – 7 English players
–
Blues 36-19 Sale

MacLeod (Wales), Cueto (Eng.), Tait (Eng.), Thomas (Wales), Cohen (Eng.), Hodgson (Eng.), Peel (Wales); Lewis-Roberts (Wales), Briggs (Eng.), Halsall (Eng.), Schofield (Eng.), Gaskell (Eng.), Fearns (Eng.), Seymour (Eng.), Koyamaibole (Fiji) – 10 English players

Jones, M. (Wales), Kerr (Scotland), O’Donnell (Eng.), Jones, C. (Eng.), Abraham (Eng.), Wigglesworth (Eng.), Kennedy (Eng.), Doherty (Eng.) – 6 English players
–
Toulouse 33-21 Harlequins

Brown (Eng.), Strettle (Eng.), Tiesi (Arg.), Mordt (Eng.), Evans (NZ), Care (Eng.); Jones (Wales), Fuga (Samoa), Andress (Ireland), Percival (Eng.), Robson (Eng.), Guest (Eng.), Skinner (Eng.), Easter (Eng.) – 9 English players

Brooker (Eng.), Croall (Eng.), Johnston (Sam.), Stevenson (Eng.), Robshaw (Eng.), Dickson (Eng.), Clegg (Eng.), Williams (Eng.) – 7 English players
–
Scarlets 33-21 London Irish

Armitage, D. (Eng.), Hewat (Aus.), Seveali’i (Sam.), Mapasua (Sam.), Homer (Eng.), Lamb (Eng.), Hodgson (Eng.); Dermody (NZ), Paice (Eng.), Rautenbach (SA), Kennedy (Eng.), Casey (Ireland), Thorpe (Eng.), Armitage, S. (Eng.), Hala’Ufia (Tonga) – 8 English players

Coetzee (SA), Murphy (Eng.), Ion (Romania), Roche (Eng.), Johnson (Eng.), Rudd (Eng.), Richards (Eng.), Malone (Aus.) – 5 English players
–

It certainly true that they did not come through the Quins academy from 12/13, but as Tony Diprose explained at a supporter forum, once an academy player is 18 he can move to another club. Both Care and Clegg fell into that cateogory and moved into the Quins academy/development system and mentored by a senior squad member. In the case of Care, Andy Gomersall was his mentor, ironic now that he has moved to Leeds. On the other hand Quins decided to not award a further academy contract to Billy Twelvetrees when he was 18, nickname 36 (think Irish) and he moved to Leicester and as part of his development/academy programme they loaned him to Bedford.

It’s like Chelsea saying they should take the credit for Daniel Sturrigde’s development, despite the fact they’ve signed him as a teenager. The same could be said of Dan Gosling
at Everton.

In terms of rugby the same could be said of Doherty at Sale.

The fact is, they have never been part of Quins’ academy.

Tosh had an excellent season last year as a foil to Turner Hall, but this season has struggled to get game time as Tiesi has been playing very well. He is a good squad member but he coming under pressure from George Lowe, who at 20 is considered to be part of the future of Quins. I suspect that when Conor O’Shea arrives as DOR, he will reassess the squad and the future of Tosh may be questionable, particularly as there is another young back, Ross Chisholm, who was England schools 400M champion pressing for a place in the centre in the next year or so.

Rather a pathetic comment, the major issue in this thread is whether the IRB current regulations on national qualification are satisfactory. Frankly if Flutey didn’t qualify then us Poms would not get upset as it would be non issue, we have enough good quality players to cover his position. However he does qualify, he wants to play test rugby, which is afterall the pinnacle of any sportsman dream. I don’t think when he originally moved to England it was on his agenda, but his move to Wasps seemed to change his outlook, Shaun Edwards and Ian McGeechan moved him to 12 and as part of the motivation raised the bar with the aim of test rugby. He responded positively and was voted player of the year by his peers in the GP.

Sometimes in life people have to get away to realise their full potential and perhaps in Flutey’s case he is one of those who by luck, maybe good judgement has found the right circumstances to achieve his dream of playing test rugby. I know from reading articles that to play for England was not an easy decision and as a proud Maori his preference would have been to play for the ABs, but that door was closed and the IRB qualification route offered him the opportunity to play test rugby. England consider him good enough to be chosen and the other English players will have to step up to the mark to dislodge him, not such a bad thing.

I don’t know whether you can recall but Martin Johnson was picked as a junior All Black and could have played as an AB. His wife is a Kiwi. However his rugby future was in England and he returned and the rest is history. Flutey and Hape’s rugby future is in the NH. Hape has dual nationality and has been in the UK for 8/9 years. They are both off the AB radar because they are not returning to NZ, as Mauger and Hayman probably will do so for RWC 2011.

All the major rugby nations have had players who were born outside the country in their squads without embarassment, Vickerman and Rathbone for OZ are examples. I didn’t see any lessening in intensity by these two players when playing for OZ. The fundamental question is whether the IRB qualification route is the right way.

Care joined when he was 18/19, Clegg is still 19 and plays primarily in the As with the other academy members and is in his second season with England U20s. He is understudy to Nick Evans and as he gets more experience he will get more game time.

WW

I forgot UGO. He probably is the biggest success of Quins academy system having been involved with Quins since he was 14/15.

Quins have an excellent academy structure and Brown, Lowe, Masson, Turner Hall, Care, Clegg, Robshaw, Guest, Robson, Lambert have come through the academy route and have appeared in the first team this season. Other regulars are Strettle, Easter, Mordt, Easter, Skinner, Percival, Brooker, Croall and Dickson who are all English qualified players. Dean Richards always made a point of bringing through English talent. Quins have 1 AB (Nick Evans) 2 PIs (Fuga and Johnson) 3 Ulstermen (McMillan, Andress and Stevenson), 3 Argentinians (Tiesi, Camacho and can’t remember but a new 2nd row). I know I have missed some but all the academy are English with a mix of U20 and U18 internationals. As a fan I enjoy watching this blend of English and overseas players.

The RFU through the professional Game Board has agreed to pay an incentive to clubs who have at least 14 players registered for England in their matchday squads. As you can see from WWs post some clubs have reduced their foreign quota through bringing through more academy players and scouting for players in ND1 (now known as the Championship). It is difficult to have actual quotas as it is probably against employment law in the UK.

I believe Hape might have played union when he was very young but according to Robbie Paul he appears to have played League for many years. It appears he was encouraged by Vianikolo to switch codes. What I really like about Hape is the way in which he handled the switch. He showed considerable respect for the change and was prepared to learn union in the A team for nearly a season, so that when he made the step up to the GP side he could play instinctively. He terminated his contract at the Bulls before expiry and moved early so he could learn the game. Not easy but shows alot of mental strength. How he goes for England is in the lap of the gods but the way in which he has handled himself to date means he should be able to handle the pressures he will be faced with on the international arena.

On the question of too much rugby, in the UK partly mainly because of football we are used to seeing major sport every weekend throughout the year. The major rugby clubs need games every weekend in the season to generate the income. The league and cup competitions have to be meaningful to consolidate the spectator interest. They generally carry a squad of between 35/40 players which allows for rotation. The new agreement between club and country and ratified by the PGB restricts the internationals to 30 games a season plus they have to rested prior to the onset of the international games in the Autumn and the Spring (6Ns). Player care and recovery is a big issue as the game is faster and harder than ever before. Injuries are unavoidable but it how they are managed is important. Nothing is perfect but the clubs and regions in the UK seem to got their structures about right judging from the increasing interest in the professional union game.

Another club is a bit of trouble is Bourgoin, who’s players were forced into taking a pay cut to avoid bankruptcy in 2009.

Are those foreign numbers in England really decreasing WW? All the GP rugby I’ve been watching lately has seen plenty of foreigners in the run on sides, maybe the youngsters are on the bench or reserve squads? No cheeky suggestions there, just genuine disbelief that foreigners are decreasing. You did say gradual though.

If this drop is happening, is it because of a change in mindset from the coaches, or is it the finacial incentive scheme that Ian (I think) was talking about somewhere eariler? And is that the RFU equivalent of a quota for the GP?

One point regarding the quota system – I recall reading that foreign players would count as home trained i.e. trained by the club, and thus not foreign, if the player had been at the club for a specific time. The example of Matt Henjak was cited at Toulon. BUT … something to note is that the top French clubs are generally top heavy with French players. It is the smaller clubs who are looking to break into the higher echelons that have invested more in foreign players.

One point regarding foreign players in England. The numbers are gradually decreasing and most coaches seem to be taking the home grown option more and more. I’m sure Ian could expand pertaining to his club Harlequins.