A-League crowds reviewed and the winner is still MVFC
Roar Guru By Michael C, 28 Jan 2010 Michael C is a Roar Guru
- Tagged:
- A-League, football, HAL, Melbourne Victory
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Finally, round 19 has been completed. The round that began way back on December 16, included two games pre-Xmas and three in the last fortnight, with all matches midweek.
Now, with this round completed, we have a chance to look at the first 21 rounds of V5, compared with the four previous completed 21 round seasons.
For total attendance over 21 rounds – V3 (wins) with 1.22 million; V2 at 1.08 million; V3 at 1.02 million; V5 at 1.01 million; V1 at 921,019.
Obviously, V5 has included an extra match per round. Thus, for 21 extra matches, V5 match by match average is pretty sick by comparison even to V1.
For average match attendance over 21 rounds – V3 (wins) 14.6K; V2 12.9K; V3 12.1K, V1 10.9K; V5 9.6K.
The obvious point to argue for V5 to be given a fair go is that the run into the finals is only beginning.
The following are the final three round growth factor relative to the per match crowd average as at Round 18: V1 : +3%; V2 : +15%; V3 : + 24%; V4 : + 20%.
In fact, though, the rounds 18-21 of V5 have exhibited a 12% ‘growth’, which has continued to a lesser degree over the last three weeks (round 22-24) at a 1.7% growth rate.
There’s a little secret to these results over the last 6 rounds.
MVFC
MVFC have played four home matches amongst those six rounds. Thus far, MVFC has played 13 home matches. The MVFC ‘home’ rounds show a 15% higher than average attendance.
The 11 rounds without MVFC at home show a 18% lower than average attendance. This is a massive variance of 33%, so important is an MVFC home match.
In fact, Round 7 is the only round this season to top a 10,000 match average without MVFC playing at home. MVFC attendances account so far for 23.1% of overall attendances.
As it is, MVFC has just one home match to come, but, round 25 sees the almost traditional late season Brisbane vs SFC match, whilst SFC host MVFC in a round 27 ‘blockbuster’.
Even allowing for a best case of 25% increase over the last 3 rounds (the V3 benchmark), the average attendance for V5 will still lie sub 10,000 (at 9,934).
The overall attendance would be around 1,341,124. The worst case is V1, with a 3.1% increase, which would deliver 9,706 avg and around 1,310,392 aggregate.
What can the HAL deliver with only one MVFC home match to go?
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January 28th 2010 @ 1:25pm
AndyRoo said | January 28th 2010 @ 1:25pm | Report comment
Good link Towser. Their seem to be some universal truths that come out of it.
Good performance or a new stadium = rises
Poor performance or price increases = falls
Not exactly rocket science but while I think guessing the overall figure is hard it’s a lot easier guessing which teams are likely to do better next year and which are worse.
Bne Roar. Would have to have an amazing off season to turn it around. I think a lot of members from this year will be wary of renewing.
Decrease.
GCU. Perhaps a finals campaign will help out but Palmer seems intent on a premium pricing strategy and I know a couple of members who won’t renew so I am guessing around the same or a decrease for next year. Not the end of the world.
Nth Qld. A slow burner and if they maintain their current strategy I would expect a slight increase.
Perth Glory. A new coach would add numbers but I expect the next couple of years to be roughly the same as now. With the force moving to ME if that results in improvements to the stadium down the track that would spark slight increases.
Adelaide. All comes down to the ownership. Fans have been extremely loyal this year but Vidmar had some credit in the bank that must have run out by now. Could be a slight decrease but could also increase if their new owners are any good.
MV. New stadium so will get a very good increase. I sometimes wish the ends were further in at Suncorp…. But then I think of those in Melbourne that only have an oval ground so I keep that thought to myself.
SFC. Would expect a slight increase due to them upgrading their Marquee spot and keeping a coach for more than 12 months.
Jets. Would expect an increase as the Western Stand is finished and they try to get away from Sunday afternoon time slots. People seem to have learnt to love Con for who he is even!
Wellington Phoenix. Hasn’t really picked up much in the second half of the season which is surprising so I don’t see them being big movers either way next year…or ever until they get out of that giant oval of a home ground. static
CCM. No Canberra games so that should make up for a disspaointing second half of this season. Hopefully a change of coach or more inspired recruiting but I will assume neither. static
January 28th 2010 @ 2:00pm
Towser said | January 28th 2010 @ 2:00pm | Report comment
AndyRoo
Heres some more interesting statistics regarding Urawa. Remarkable acheivment in 16 years to go from 11000 average to now averaging around 45000. Perhaps the Roar should send Bombolas over to Japan to have a look at how they do things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urawa_Red_Diamonds_Competitions_Record
January 28th 2010 @ 2:10pm
Redb said | January 28th 2010 @ 2:10pm | Report comment
Japan have a bit of corporate club rugby but no dominant NRL or AFL – totally different market IMO. I dont think much that happens in Japan’s sporting scene would be analogous to OZ.
January 28th 2010 @ 2:28pm
Towser said | January 28th 2010 @ 2:28pm | Report comment
But they do have a football league & so do we.
If you wish to draw comparisons between other sports & football in Japan the Japanese market is little different to Australia. They have an estabilished baseball league that pulls in 22 million. In fact the second highest total attendance in the world.
Personally I believe it is nonsense to compare a developing sport with a different estabilished one.
But we all have our opinions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attendance_figures_at_domestic_professional_sports_leagues
January 28th 2010 @ 2:19pm
Michael C said | January 28th 2010 @ 2:19pm | Report comment
exactly as Redb points out – the HAL is in far less of a ‘football’ vacuum than either of USA or Japan.
That and, the old NSL was the first national football code back in the 70s.
What the stat about Urawa really illustrates is the previously immature state of elite domestic sport in Japan full stop.
January 28th 2010 @ 2:32pm
Towser said | January 28th 2010 @ 2:32pm | Report comment
See above for immature sport in japan.
January 28th 2010 @ 3:21pm
AndyRoo said | January 28th 2010 @ 3:21pm | Report comment
That’s a lot more charitable than where I would send him Towser.
SFC played Urawa in the ACL and there were a lot of stories about how they were the Man Utd of Europe, but without the titles. The game in Japan had a fantastic atmosphere (even on TV) and since then I have seen footage of Josh Kennedy playing for Nagoya Grampus and it certainly looks an exciting place to play. Nagoya (Kennedy) vs Urawa (Spiranovic) this year will be a good spectacle.
MLS and the J league have both built respectable competitions against the back drop of being a minor sport initially/still media wise so they are pretty good case studies. There are not many great examples to follow in Australia.
You can learn a bit from how the big AFL teams work on match day and membership drive but the model is flawed if you take it further because they are established FTA and newspaper behemoths.
There are the Force in WA, Storm in Vic, Lions in QLD and Swans in NSW as the only teams to make it big in new markets. You can’t plan to replicate the Super league war or just wait 25 years like the Swans did. The Storm hemorrhage money at the moment but some of their marketing practices are probably useful, the Force are going backwards at the current time leaving the Lions as the best example. As far as I can tell the Lions plan seemed to be survive for x amount of years to prove you’re a real footy team and then win the comp 3 times in a row. Perhaps they also tried to win over Victorians who had moved to QLD which I guess would be the football equivalent of what happened in the 50’s
The best studies would be to follow the GWS and GC17 projects but the FFA doesn’t have 200m to grow the game to set up its next 2 teams, interesting if they come up with some new tricks we haven’t seen in sports marketing yet.
January 28th 2010 @ 3:44pm
Michael C said | January 28th 2010 @ 3:44pm | Report comment
that’d be the “Man Utd of ‘Asia’”??
the big difference in both USA and Japan is far greater population base – -
in the US the ‘hispanic’ and other soccer expats is a huge domestic audience comapred to all of Australia.
Both Japan and US HAVE conducted a FIFA WC, where in Japan built way too many stadia and now struggle to maintain all of them, whilst in the US the infrastructure pre-existed. Niether had to push off competing football comps (let alone 2) to run the WC.
For GC17 and GWS18, given no Clive Palmer style private owners – their main trick is the 2 year operational lead in of a Under 18 side evolving to a 2nd tier senior side evolving to an elite top grade senior side.
January 28th 2010 @ 3:56pm
AndyRoo said | January 28th 2010 @ 3:56pm | Report comment
The US world cup happened in 94 and their league didn’t come in until after. It was also a very slow burner until they got more appropriate venues and chose their expansion areas better.
Some of the places they have put teams are interesting. What worked and what didn’t work makes for good copy too as the issues are largely what we have here.
they have tried embrassing the Hispanic market with one of their two teams in LA (chivas) but I think Galaxy have done a lot better.
As to your AFl example, I was thinking more specific about how they are going to punch through media wise, what sort of partnerships they set up with local papers and how they will get air time. The sort of little tricks you need to know.
Although interestingly the FFA is pushing for Canberra to have a NYL team come in before the senior team is granted a license.
Shame the Rovers couldn’t afford to do that as well.
January 28th 2010 @ 4:15pm
AndyRoo said | January 28th 2010 @ 4:15pm | Report comment
“For GC17 and GWS18, given no Clive Palmer style private owners – their main trick is the 2 year operational lead in of a Under 18 side evolving to a 2nd tier senior side evolving to an elite top grade senior side”
So far it has all been about K hunt and Sheedy though. I haven’t heard much about how GC17 went in the TAC cup.
January 28th 2010 @ 4:27pm
Dogz R Barkn said | January 28th 2010 @ 4:27pm | Report comment
Don’t forget that the US has a pro soccer league before the MLS (which went bust).
But in its day, it had some well known teams, chiefly the New York Cosmos, who regularly drew 50,000 crowds and signed some of the biggest stars of the game.
Check out some of these names:
Franz Beckenbauer
Hubert Birkenmeier
Johan Neeskens
Pele
Wim Rijsbergen
Not a bad list!!
January 28th 2010 @ 4:28pm
Michael C said | January 28th 2010 @ 4:28pm | Report comment
depending where you live, the TAC Cup mainly in Victoria will be pretty invisible.
Main thing for now – is the growth of the true footy base,
the K.Hunt thing, that’s interesting, and Sheeds as well – - a bit of ‘fluff’ publicity whilst the real foundation building is undertaken.
It’ll be interesting to see how it all gels together. We’ll probably get our first ‘feel’ for that mid year this year when K.Hunt get’s thrown in the deep end at Gold Coast in the VFL.
January 29th 2010 @ 9:54am
AndyRoo said | January 29th 2010 @ 9:54am | Report comment
MC
I am guessing you will enjoy this piece a lot.
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/blogs/balls/soccers-sleeping-giant-still-dozing/20100129-n255.html
On topic Silkstone writes
Many are sceptical about the AFL’s Napoleonic expansion into the Gold Coast and Western Sydney — both areas where soccer has the natural advantage. But the resources being ploughed in by Aussie Rules, the constant stream of stunts, announcements and media opportunities, show how aggressively you need to act to ensure growth in the current sporting market. Would anyone suggest soccer has even attempted this in recent times?
January 29th 2010 @ 10:17am
Redb said | January 29th 2010 @ 10:17am | Report comment
AndyRoo,
That’s a fairly realistic assessment by Silkstone. The crowd at the SFC v MV game at Etihad in Season 2 was 50,000, so its’ where has the other 30,000 gone?
MV should not be worried, they a have a solid core and get 20,000 to their games. Melb Heart will struggle, but if they manage a top marquee player who knows? Sustainability is the key.
I think the main message that is all games are only as good as their traditional fans, people don’t naturally seek out alternatives if they are already happy with the ‘football’ they watch. They will go to one-offs or games that have that extra bit of magic, but its not sustainable unless the magic remains.
For many Melbournians brought up on Aussie Rules with massive crowds at the MCG, an Essendon v Collingwood or Carlton game is as good as it gets for a panoramic live sporting spectacle especially if the teams are competitive. It is tough opposition for any sport to consistently match.
The AFL’s problem is that is can’t transplant the MCG and the big Vic club rivalry all over the country, so it loses some of its gravitas as a result.
Redb
p.s. The 8 team T20 league could be a ripper if they recruit well.
January 29th 2010 @ 10:36am
Michael C said | January 29th 2010 @ 10:36am | Report comment
AndryRoo -
not a bad synopsis,
I’m a bit like the ‘Ken’ descriped by Dan. I was there that night (50,000 actually), and since, I’ve been caught up on the domestic T20 bandwagon, I went to the final 2 years ago – 30,000 at the G, we (Vic) beat Tassie. I took the family last year to see us play SA, about 20,000 that night, and this year I went with the whole family and along with 43,000+ others.
The comparison is that for value for money and for entertainment and relaxed atmosphere and just having good summer (off season) fun – - it was brilliant.
Reality for us ‘footy fan’ types – the winter is for our angst and deep seeded concern about our club – - summer is meant to be a tad more light hearted!!! FOr we footy folk – sports over summer really is just ‘theatre’, which is why basketball, soccer and even tennis and golf have limited ‘deep rooted’ success. T20 might just buck the trend.
However, Dan couldn’t resist -
referring to CA “Even after you allow for the fact that they diddled the figures ” – - – I attended with 5 people in my family, only 4 of us were paid and counted as my 4 year old didn’t get a ticket/bar code and went under the turnstyle. Diddled….yep…..but down, not up!!!
and re the ‘stunts’……did not Clive Palmer come in all guns blazing ‘stunt’ wise. His massive wealth, his jets flying his team to China etc etc,
has not the A-League presented a bevy of ‘big names’ like Dwight Yorke, Robbie Fowler, some aged guy looking for 1000 goals who played in Adelaide??, and a couple of some time socceroos in Moore and Aloisi and Muscat. Has not the A-League provided us a movie star owner in Anthony LaPaglia,……Asian participation,…..World Cup bids……there’s stunts and fireworks and the like….
but – there’s stunts and then there’s stunts,
everyone does it – - just as the Melbourne Rebels carefully unveiled major announcements on consecutive days – - Brian Waldron, next day Harold Mitchell, next day Rod McQueen, there might have been more subsequently, I gave up trying to keep up with it.
btw –
and for like with like – as it was 50,000 back in V2, the SFC matches this year have still drawn high 20s near enough 30. It’s still mainly the equation – - where did the other 20K go.
……..I notice Dan didn’t resort to the ‘honeymoon period’ phrase. Or ‘novelty value’.
Anyway – some realists recognise that the hard work is just starting.
January 29th 2010 @ 11:25am
AndyRoo said | January 29th 2010 @ 11:25am | Report comment
“Sustainability is the key”
Yeh that’s pretty much the key word. I don’t prescribe to Michael C’s basketball theory about the future of football, I don’t see the game’s profile going anywhere but up (even if it does so very very slowly).
It’s probably why I can enjoy pieces like this because I am not worried at all about the game just the running of individual clubs. There is quite a bit of variance to how teams are run and that seems largely because of private ownership. The game is doing fine, I just think it could be run better and that would get better results (crowd wise). I still see a lot if unfulfilled potential in how the northern teams (bar Fury) are run so there is definitely potential for growth once tapped.
Am glad that Cricket has got it’s act together domestically. Previously we would have had a one day game between West Indies and Pakistan not involving any Aussies and now we instead get Victoria vs NSW with a couple of overseas stars each in front of a good crowd. Seems a much better deal to me
January 28th 2010 @ 2:12pm
Australian Football said | January 28th 2010 @ 2:12pm | Report comment
Danny Tiatto, is no fan of Ange —-read it on TWG site—-I’ve heard of managers that like to leave their stamp on a club but I think Ange boy may have gone too far..
~~~~~~
AF
January 28th 2010 @ 4:07pm
Towser said | January 28th 2010 @ 4:07pm | Report comment
Australian Football
Dont you mean the other way round,that Danny stamped on Ange at training?
January 28th 2010 @ 4:13pm
Australian Football said | January 28th 2010 @ 4:13pm | Report comment
Possibly
January 28th 2010 @ 4:15pm
Dogz R Barkn said | January 28th 2010 @ 4:15pm | Report comment
That sounds more likely!!
January 28th 2010 @ 1:51pm
hazza said | January 28th 2010 @ 1:51pm | Report comment
Down in AFLAND they like to artificially spike everything from there attendances to participation rates( auskick v organised participation) to membership rates. Hawthorns 50 000 members includes one game memberships . So for a $16 dollar membership you have access to one game? Melbourne Demons have apperantly signed 31000 members yet there average attendance against any interstate club is 17000 . Gotta ask where the other 14000 members go missing?
January 28th 2010 @ 2:04pm
Redb said | January 28th 2010 @ 2:04pm | Report comment
The crowd of 83,000 at the MCG for the last game of the season between Ess and Haw wasn’t real? Could have sworn the G was pretty full. Must all be carboard cutouts eh.
January 28th 2010 @ 2:12pm
Michael C said | January 28th 2010 @ 2:12pm | Report comment
Hazza – why do you insist on bringing the AFL into this?
however – I will bite as I’m curious where you believe they offer a 1 game $16 dollar membership?
Their ‘low game’ memberships include:
They have 4 game packages for Tassie,
and 5 game packages for Regional/Interstate/Overseas,
and the non match day memberships (effectively subscribing to being on the email list!!!! and getting a sticker or two.) $120.
btw – at any given time there are many established and often long term members clearly unable to attend games,
However, an Adult Regional 5 is still worth $183 to the club – reserved seating is extra.
I gather, on average, each membership equates to about $100 straight to a club – so, for Hawthorn, 50,000 members will give or take a tad, equate to about $5 million.
What IS the case in AFL land is that there’s often severely limited cash through the gate – for example an Eagles or Geelong home match might be 95% home fans and all members. There’s a requirement to provide a minimum amount of seating for visiting fans……not much though!
re ‘artificial’ spiking – the AFL use the same accounting practices as soccer, rugby etc. What seems most annoying for people is that the AFL actually publish their numbers each year in their annual report – whereas other codes are shrouded in secrecy and we’re left trying to extrapolate out from surveys.
January 28th 2010 @ 2:16pm
Dogz R Barkn said | January 28th 2010 @ 2:16pm | Report comment
It’s well known that in the middle of Winter all those MCC/Demon fans are at the snow fields!!
January 28th 2010 @ 3:35pm
hazza said | January 28th 2010 @ 3:35pm | Report comment
Hawthorns Armchair membership allows entry to one home game per season for Tasmanian supporters. Check their website if you want more details.
January 28th 2010 @ 3:51pm
Michael C said | January 28th 2010 @ 3:51pm | Report comment
excellent – so, how many of those 50,000 members do you reckon fit that ‘introductory level’ Tassie only category? Reality though is that yes – Hawthorn will have several thousand Tassie based members who, in the main will be low total value memberships. Thus the Hawks rapid rise to the top, and thus Collingwood fans would sit back and probably share your scepticism!!
actually – I reckon the misconception amongst many outside of AFL land is that everyone is a full H&A member or all home games member.
Quite possibly other clubs have tried 1 game memberships such as when the Doggies take a game to Darwin. No big deal that. The Swans have the 3 game memberships for the Homebush matches only. It’s all about getting the money up front.
Reality is, given that clubs no longer play at a single venue week in week out for home matches – and this has been so for quite some time, there’s an awful lot of flex,
there has to be,
such as the ability to get reserves seats at either or both of MCG and or Etihad,
and when a team has interstate matches – as when North were playing 3 a year in Canberra or GC, that meant the Melb based Home package was only 8 games, although we often had a reciprocal ’9th’ match with another club – ironically Hawthorn.
January 29th 2010 @ 12:52am
Kurt said | January 29th 2010 @ 12:52am | Report comment
Those members don’t get counted in the official membership tallies published by the AFL. Last season the vast majority (75%+) of Hawthorn’s 50K members were full season ticket holders based in Victoria.
January 28th 2010 @ 3:49pm
hazza said | January 28th 2010 @ 3:49pm | Report comment
My point is we dont get the full picture with the AFL. Attendances are great at the AFL dont get me wrong. But they are great because the top drawing sides play each other twice as opposed to 30 game home and away series where each team plays each other twice. In this case the crowd averages would tumble. Ask anyone in the AFL about participation and all he quotes is AUSKICK participation. So if my child participated in AUSKICK for one hour per year he would be included in Aussie Rules participation stats? Sorry, I dont think so.
January 28th 2010 @ 4:19pm
Dogz R Barkn said | January 28th 2010 @ 4:19pm | Report comment
I’m not sure what your beef is.
If my team, Canterbury-Bankstown, had over 50,000 members, which happened to include a few thousand who only got to see a few matches per season, I’d be pretty happy about that!! (along with the $8 million collected before the start of each and every season)
I’m not sure, but I think I read somewhere that Kennett reckons they’ll get to 75,000 members by the end of the decade.
Doesn’t matter which way you cut it up – that’s a very big number!!
January 28th 2010 @ 4:20pm
Michael C said | January 28th 2010 @ 4:20pm | Report comment
ask anyone at the AFL and you’d get a response along the lines of the annual report for season 2008 :
- Record participation in 2008 of 693,052 which represented growth of 8.5 per cent or 54,224. The final figure is 72,000 ahead of estimates included in the Next Generation – Securing the Future of Australian Football strategy which estimated that participation would reach 700,000 in 2011. (NSW and Queensland now account for 30 per cent of total participation in the game – up from just 14 per cent of total participation in 1997).
- Record NAB AFL Auskick participation of 163,885 at 2913 centres – up by 1.7 per cent on the previous year.
- A 2.6 per cent rise in community club football with 290,590 players playing in 12,024teams. All community club segments recorded growth in 2008.
And no – if your child participated in Auskick for 1 hour per year they shouldn’t be counted – however, as with any of the introductory programs such as MiloIn2 cricket and soccers small sided games and the intro RL Kids to Kangaroos or whatever it is – - that, not all kids who register will necessarily turn up every week. However, the Govt standard for ABS etc is that so long as the program runs at least 6 weeks, then they can be counted.
Now – if your kid registers (not just participates – you need to register and hand over your cash), then, you’re kid’ll probably be counted…….now if you’ve gone that far and don’t utilise the entire program, well – don’t blame the AFL, or NRL or whomever!!!
January 28th 2010 @ 4:28pm
Mick said | January 28th 2010 @ 4:28pm | Report comment
Muppets in charge of the various sports can & do fudge numbers for participation & rating etc……… but when they fudge crowd numbers it %^&s me.
BTW the people running the a-league need their eyes opened & ears cleared as they are set in their ways
January 28th 2010 @ 4:41pm
Dogz R Barkn said | January 28th 2010 @ 4:41pm | Report comment
Mick
“BTW the people running the a-league need their eyes opened & ears cleared as they are set in their ways ”
What do you mean by that?
January 28th 2010 @ 5:15pm
Realfootball said | January 28th 2010 @ 5:15pm | Report comment
Yep in the end all that matters is bums on seats and revenue. Doesn’t matter how you get them there or how many juniors you have, it’s attendances. AFL is a remarkably successful in this regard. NRL was in line to be overtaken by football last season but has surged ahead.
My hunch? Too many bad games of football all round, some poor stadiums with awful surfaces, and some disastrous pricing. Let’s face it, there have been some marvellous games, but some really, really awful ones too. Far too many for the casual maybe I will maybe I won’t fan.
January 28th 2010 @ 8:20pm
Victer said | January 28th 2010 @ 8:20pm | Report comment
this will probably only be fixed with increased foreign quota. more teams trying to grab already thin stocks of decent local players has created some very average games along with more rounds. a dramatic increase in foreign players should be looked at. we just don’t have enough players here and we won’t for maybe even another decade.
January 28th 2010 @ 8:59pm
ItsCalledFootball said | January 28th 2010 @ 8:59pm | Report comment
By far the AFL’s greatest revenue comes from the $780 million media deal, not bums on seats.
NRL from News Limited and their media deals.
The FFA are set to get a new $300 million plus media deal, which will be their greatest source of income.
The AFL are heavily promoting AFL in NSW and Qld and giving away money to play Auskick and free tickets to games, but their attendances, ratings and revenue in these states are falling.
NRL had a better year last year, but still well behind their best year which was five years ago in season 2005.
January 29th 2010 @ 8:06am
Dogz R Barkn said | January 29th 2010 @ 8:06am | Report comment
I’m confident that this year, the NRL will be able to match that best season from 5 years ago – all indicators are looking good.
I’m really amazed at the sorts of comments I read here about the AFL – people will agree that it’s the biggest comp in Australia, but then will say: yeh, but, they do this and that.
Well, yeh – maybe because they do this and that – it’s why their the biggest (and the best after the NRL).
Last bloke said that AFL clubs aren’t making money out of memberships, but some clubs are pushing $10 mill revenue from their memberships – I don’t know about you – but I’d take it!
January 29th 2010 @ 8:30am
Redb said | January 29th 2010 @ 8:30am | Report comment
Yep, fair dose of it Barkin is straight out jealousy. Many want what the AFL have.
Memberships are part of the revenue for clubs and are big contributors. Just becuase some clubs offer shorter versions fo membership does not make them valuable to the club in terms of support and access for sponsors. A way of counting their fanbase.
My club Essendon only offers 11 game memberships minimum (interstate and country memberships are different), we have 26,000 members signed up already in what is called a rebuilding phase. Topped 40,000 in 2009 and will go close again.
Some are confused about AFL memberships, Hawthorn are one of the richest clubs and that is largely due to a very successful membership drive.
Redb
January 29th 2010 @ 10:23am
Dogz R Barkn said | January 29th 2010 @ 10:23am | Report comment
by the way redb, let me congratulate you on the evenhandedness of your posts – you’re not too bad for a Mexican!!
January 29th 2010 @ 10:53am
Redb said | January 29th 2010 @ 10:53am | Report comment
your not too bad for a westie either Barkn
The Bombers are unlikely Grand Finalists this year, I’d like to see the Western Bulldogs get up and win, any chance your lot will make it a double for bulldogs fans?
January 29th 2010 @ 11:01am
Michael C said | January 29th 2010 @ 11:01am | Report comment
Come now guys – enough of that,
you’re making us all blush and not sure where to look!!!
January 29th 2010 @ 11:12am
Dogz R Barkn said | January 29th 2010 @ 11:12am | Report comment
Nothing would make me happier.
We Westies have to stick together!!
It’s a tough world out there.
January 30th 2010 @ 11:08pm
ItsCalledFootball said | January 30th 2010 @ 11:08pm | Report comment
Dogz R Lickn
January 28th 2010 @ 7:47pm
NUFCMVFC said | January 28th 2010 @ 7:47pm | Report comment
Interesting article
I would also venture to say that the FFA are a bit lucky to have had MVFC host to season 4 Grand Final and get a 50k crowd, covered up some of the cracks of some seeping apathy, have to remember AUFC’s very low Preliminary Final crowds, so hopefully when the time comes that MVFC aren’t hosting a Grand Final again there isn’t an dissapointingly low turnout
Although it must also be remembered that at the end of season 3 we had SFC vs MVFC in the last regular game, with the Premierhsip on the line for SFC and they got a 30k crowd so they are capable, will be interesting to see what happens this year with both teams playing on February 14 with the Premiership within reach for both clubs, + Gold Coast perhaps as well
On MVFC’s crowds, interesting that they have decided to try and dilute “the Melbourne market” by introducing a new team, although we will still divide by five until season 7 when Western Sydney come in when we will divide by six. With no new fans really set to come to the A League because of Heart (hard to see what niche they are meant to be tapping into), we will probably see a much lower avaerage either because of compromised MVFC crowds or really low Heart crowds, there may be soem people who attend both but whether this is consistently across a whole season remains to be seen. Will be interesting to see how the new Stadium on Swan Street opening impacts on trends
January 29th 2010 @ 8:33am
Redb said | January 29th 2010 @ 8:33am | Report comment
MV crowds will be higher for the 2010/11 season as people try out the new stadium, which is a beauty (from the outside).
January 28th 2010 @ 8:12pm
matty1974 said | January 28th 2010 @ 8:12pm | Report comment
After 21 rounds of HAL season 2009/2010, Michael C has spent 1521 hours posting 23,347 comments on the Roar about A league crowd figures, at an average of 3.42 mins per post.
This is a 23.42% increase on 2008/2009 figures of 1211 hours for 16,364 posts. Of course this does not take into account the additional 6 rounds of this season.
I predict that by the end of the season, Michael C will have made 30,378 anti A league posts, at an average of 3.21111 minutes per post.
January 29th 2010 @ 8:12am
ItsCalledFootball said | January 29th 2010 @ 8:12am | Report comment
Yes and I calculate only 568 or about 3.16% of all anti A-League posts at an average of 1.23 minutes were directed at MVFC.
Here’s a further breakdown of Michael C football posts up to round 25:
Anti A-League (general) – 4,976 posts at 3.211 minutes
Anti Sydney FC – 8,795 posts at 11.63 minutes
Anti Melbourne Victory – 568 posts at 1.23 minutes
Anti FIFA WC Bid – 14,256 posts at 23.11 minutes
AFL is better than Sokka – 1,783 posts at 13.77 minutes
January 29th 2010 @ 8:23am
Michael C said | January 29th 2010 @ 8:23am | Report comment
GEt over it mate -
where in my article was I anti MVFC?
where in my article was I pro AFL vs soccer?
re FIFA WC bid – ah……apparently it’s all black and white is it? (how about pro-transparency,…..but, if that’s deemed anti the bid, ah well – a fine facist regime you’re running here then, it is.)
where as, anti SFC, that one I can accept….but, that’s because SFC is the biggest unfulfilled potential club franchise in the country,…well, along with Sydney Kingz.
(a theme perhaps is about how arrogant rich people can completey stuff up otherwise unstuffable sports franchises).
January 29th 2010 @ 9:58am
Australian Football said | January 29th 2010 @ 9:58am | Report comment
C’mon you guys, MC is anti-AFL and a pro Football advocate—–we have won him over to Football—–he spends all of his time writing pro Football articles like this one—–the moderators can see it, why can’t we..?
~~~~~~~
AF
January 28th 2010 @ 10:14pm
Mick said | January 28th 2010 @ 10:14pm | Report comment
I said earlier about eyes opened & ears cleared ………… in the previous a-league seasons started in August & the excuses were coming out, olympics, nrl & afl finals, players & juniors are still playing in season, rain etc……
I think the nsl did not start their season until october
This season a-league bosses are told, season starts to early, how can players play in australia & prepare for world cup when players have not played for 3 months & they still do not understand why players want to go on loan to give them a chance of world cup selection
That is what i mean when i say muppets, eyes opened 7 ears cleared
January 29th 2010 @ 8:02am
Dogz R Barkn said | January 29th 2010 @ 8:02am | Report comment
That’s a fair enough point.
January 29th 2010 @ 10:57am
Realfootball said | January 29th 2010 @ 10:57am | Report comment
ItsCalledFootball :
Certainly, b far the AFL’s greatest revenue comes from the $780 million media deal, but you are missing the point – the bums on seats are what drive that price. The AFL attendances came first and the tv money followed.
If the A League was pulling AFL crowds, the A League tv deal would be worth $780 million too.
I don’t see anything pro AFL or otherwise in Michael C’s article. It is simply an analysis. A League crowds will grow once we have a higher standard for football on offer more consistently. Don’t let the door hit you on the arse, Lawrie McKinna.
January 29th 2010 @ 12:20pm
ItsCalledFootball said | January 29th 2010 @ 12:20pm | Report comment
Come on Fakefootball,
You really believe Michael C is not pro-AFL.
What’s your game?
Have a look at the “soccer” articles he writes – they are all about falling A-League crowds and how the FFA have stuffed up the WC bid.
If he was fair and unbiased he would write an article about AFL crowds, ratings and revenue also falling this season, despite the AFL commissioners spending hundreds of millions of AFL punters’ money on marketing, advertising, AusKick, bribing local councils and “expanding AFL into NSW and Qld.”
I think the AFL are more worried about declining interest than the FFA – the AFL have much more to lose.
The AFL get bigger crowds than the EPL, yet the AFL deal is worth $780 million over 5 years and the EPL Media deal went for 2 billion pounds over 2 years – explain that in terms of bums on seats.
You people just don’t get it – attendances at games is not the only measure of a sports popularity – that’s why Michael C keeps going on about A-League crowds.
January 29th 2010 @ 12:43pm
Dogz R Barkn said | January 29th 2010 @ 12:43pm | Report comment
Ratings matter as well.
Put together attendances, memberships, ratings, media interest, merchandise sales, and, um, well, you get the drift.
NRL ratings are right up there with the AFL’s (even if our attendances are about half).
Let’s be honest, I watch plenty of A-League on Fox, and I’ll support the Rovers when they come in – but I don’t think the A-League represents a ratings bonanza, certainly not in the same league as the NRL.
Of course it’s a different story for the Socceroos – they are the ones that are going to drive the serious coin for the FFA – not the A-League.
January 29th 2010 @ 12:47pm
Realfootball said | January 29th 2010 @ 12:47pm | Report comment
That’s true Itscalled. TV viewing figures are indeed an ever more important indicator of support.
Does anyone know the stats for Fox for A League views?
Trouble is, empty stadiums really detract from the game on the box. The lack of atmosphere is palpable.
January 29th 2010 @ 12:58pm
ItsCalledFootball said | January 29th 2010 @ 12:58pm | Report comment
A lot of A-League games have a fantastic atmosphere even if they are not sellouts – the Cove are one of the best supporters group in the country and do a great job at the SFS.
The Swans North Melbourne preliminary final was played in front of 18k people in the 85K capacity Olympic Stadium. Not such a good atmosphere for an AFL finals game and the TV ratings were pathetic.
What about the Socceroos games – the WC qualifier against Uruguay at the Olympic stadium was the best game of football, any code, I have ever seen and the atmopsphere at the game was absolutely fantastic.
The first step to enjoying a game of sport is to have an open mind, and then you might enjoy it a little more.
What’s your game Fakefootball?
January 29th 2010 @ 1:11pm
AndyRoo said | January 29th 2010 @ 1:11pm | Report comment
This has come up a few times but not all of us are that caught up against us vs them. I think Realfootball comes from the same perspective as me. Football fan that admires how good the AFL administration is.
Michael C will only give back handed compliments to football but that doesn’t bother me and he can deliver some insight (Etihad situation, Adealide vs MV should be on the public holiday every year etc). I am quite comfortable football is heading in the right direction but there are things it can do better to reach it’s potential. Certain clubs are dragging the chain,and if you live in South East QLD you are surrounded by the chain draggers!
AFL or Cricket writers are welcome to comment on Football now, we have plenty of our own media to balance things so Rebecca Wilson bagging the A league isn’t going to hurt the game one bit. Just more PR. Better to be talked about than not.
Though the timing of some attacks does stink of smell the fear. Andy D right after the World Cup draw and Richard Hinds on the eve of an A league grand final, but I don’t lose any sleep over it. Where a big code now, we can take it.
January 29th 2010 @ 3:34pm
Michael C said | January 29th 2010 @ 3:34pm | Report comment
don’t forget – Demetriou timing was based largely on when he returned to work after his paternity leave (recall he and his wife already had a house full of girls including twins, so, his first boy coming into the house hold – I reckon the last thing he was going to do was interrupt that private time to come out earlier with a potentially inflamming comment).
Timing stinks therefore more of coincidence than deliberate attack – afterall, the initial questions were asked over in Perth where Demetriou had just been to brief clubs.
Sometimes people can read too much into things like this.
January 29th 2010 @ 1:36pm
Michael C said | January 29th 2010 @ 1:36pm | Report comment
Talk about blowing your cover in 4 short words :
The first step to enjoying a game of sport is to have an open mind, and then you might enjoy it a little more.
What’s your game Fakefootball?
btw – agreed large venues and small crowds are rarely any good – which is why we North Melb folk would far prefer a more compact 40K venue in Melbourne town…..we used to have them, they were called suburban grounds (okay, 25K venues!!!!).
btw – that Swans v NM elim final also happened to be about the coldest/wettest night forecast and eventuating in Sydney in the last 10 years. AFL stuffed up the promotion as well. Ah well.
btw – re open minds…did you happen to watch Geelong vs StKilda last season,…not the GF, although that was pretty fine match – but the round 14 classic at Etihad…….that my friend was the best game of football, or any code – you could hope to see.
oh,….perhaps I let my bias show???? [note - these are examples of subjective bias, please point them out in the main article].
January 29th 2010 @ 3:05pm
MV Dave said | January 29th 2010 @ 3:05pm | Report comment
“that my friend was the best game of football, or any code – you could hope to see.” Sorry but ManU v ManCity over the last 2 weeks has been the best club football anywhere in the world…huge passionate crowds, great atmosphere, local rivals, massive match (playing for a place in a Wembley final), controversy, ex player of ManU scoring 3 times, international players of the highest calibre on both sides, great drama (penalty that wasnt and after180 plus minutes winning goal in 188th minute), great goals and the worlds best striker (White Pele) and the best team in the world winning
Now MV to beat GCU tonight and the sports world is just going along beautifully!
January 29th 2010 @ 3:27pm
Michael C said | January 29th 2010 @ 3:27pm | Report comment
and at the end of the day, each to their own.
(thus the whole point of my previous post).
January 29th 2010 @ 3:35pm
Australian Football said | January 29th 2010 @ 3:35pm | Report comment
“Now MV to beat GCU tonight and the sports world is just going along beautifully!”
MVDave,
We have closed Coolangatta Airport and flooded the Arterial H’ways no sign of MV yet—-tonight will be the best of the GCU performances to date—–and the best football was played by Chelsea—-even tho I have yet to see a full match on SBS, UCL
~~~~~~
AF
January 29th 2010 @ 4:01pm
MV Dave said | January 29th 2010 @ 4:01pm | Report comment
Aaaaaahhhh AF…we’ve even decided to play without the best striker in HAL and our goalie! Just giving GCU a chance you understand
Will be glued to the box for this one…hope you’ve noticed we now have 2 Costa Rican imports and so the ‘Scottish One’ and his merry band of Spanish (the Portugesers were fired when Fred left!) interpreters will be giving the lads some finely tuned instructions on how to dismantle the ‘Slow Coasters’ for the 3rd time this season! Go Victoreeeeeeee!
January 29th 2010 @ 4:20pm
Art Sapphire said | January 29th 2010 @ 4:20pm | Report comment
AF – Newsflash : I am happy to report that my mates are currently getting sloshed on the Gold Coast as they prepare to march on Robina with the Victory boys. Be afraid, be very afraid!
January 29th 2010 @ 2:00pm
Dave1 said | January 29th 2010 @ 2:00pm | Report comment
aleague ratings
http://www.ebroadcast.com.au/enews/tv-ratings/STV-Batters-The-Competition-with-The-Big-Bash-180110.html
‘…..Interest and viewership in the domestic Twenty20 cricket competition continues to grow with viewing levels regularly reaching near record levels. As an example, last Sunday’s coverage of WA vs Victoria, Live: Cricket: Twenty20 Big Bash on FOX Sports, drew 216,000 people and the rain affected NSW/Queensland game on Wednesday night was watched by 210,000 viewers. In other sport, Live: Football: A-League Perth v Sydney was seen by 76,000 people and the Saturday A-League game between Melbourne and Perth was watched by 65,000 people (all on FOX Sports)….”
January 29th 2010 @ 2:56pm
MV Dave said | January 29th 2010 @ 2:56pm | Report comment
What about the viewing figures for the Ford Ranger Cup or the Sheffield Shield (is it still called that?)
January 29th 2010 @ 3:38pm
Michael C said | January 29th 2010 @ 3:38pm | Report comment
Not really relevant.
Reason being – they aren’t the forms of the domestic game likely to be on FTA regularly. The Test match ‘season’ relagates the Shield, and the ODI’s relagate the FRC. However, the cricket product range in Australia that isn’t covered via the annual summer internationals is the T20 offerings.
January 29th 2010 @ 12:49pm
Realfootball said | January 29th 2010 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
I still don’t see Michael C’s piece as anti A League. Got to be careful about paranoia.
January 29th 2010 @ 1:51pm
Australian Football said | January 29th 2010 @ 1:51pm | Report comment
Well then Realfootball—–you would be wrong…
MC’s purpose is to destroy football morale—–as ‘ItsCalledFootball’ has rightly stated, he is employed by the AFL propaganda machine.
~~~~~~~
AF
January 29th 2010 @ 3:06pm
MV Dave said | January 29th 2010 @ 3:06pm | Report comment
Its about the 6th article he has written on falling ALeague crowds…yaaaawn.
January 29th 2010 @ 3:22pm
Michael C said | January 29th 2010 @ 3:22pm | Report comment
ah – and so topical every time…..
btw – you’re very welcome to provide us something to banter about blithely on a Thursday/Friday arvo rather than just knocking!!!!!
we’re in the ‘workplace entertainment’ industry after all, are we not?? (sadly just as volunteers – - gee AF, I’d love to be ‘employed’ by Australian Football but, alas, no such luck.).
January 29th 2010 @ 3:51pm
MV Dave said | January 29th 2010 @ 3:51pm | Report comment
Next topic – why MV are a bigger FC than Nth Melb….ooops been done (see bottom of page)
ps You of course are free to right as you please and your articles under the football tab certainly draw a huge response but the fascination with HAL attendances wears a bit thin after 5-6 articles…just hope you keep writing about them when the crowds start to rise again!
January 29th 2010 @ 4:04pm
MV Dave said | January 29th 2010 @ 4:04pm | Report comment
err write not right…helps to reread what you post.
January 29th 2010 @ 4:08pm
Michael C said | January 29th 2010 @ 4:08pm | Report comment
when or if.
Ah look – I DID write articles or commentary at least back when people were proclaiming in V2 that the HAL was on the rise around the country – when, in fact, the increase in crowds was entirely due to MVFC moving to Docklands.
and in V3, as the new heights were reached – I pointed out that a large portion was new Wellington vs old Auckland. And only somewhat less to do with CCM and NJs in Australia,
you see – I wanted credit where it was due.
It’s the over expansive language out of FFA HQ that irks sometimes – and so, we saw F.Lowy not wanting to mention the war – such that as V4 was heading very much southward attendance wise – his language was still talking about a ‘plateau’!!! Poor old Frank – finally come V5 he was able to publicly admit it……….at a meeting of ‘Attendances Anonymous’.
Have a good weekend,
carn Cam White,
carn the Vics at Bellerive,
and carn MVFC and just stick it up anyone….esp Clive Palmer.
January 29th 2010 @ 12:53pm
Michael C said | January 29th 2010 @ 12:53pm | Report comment
Of course I’m pro-AFL,
but, as long as we get drivel like Adrian’s ‘fear and loathing’ article permitted to be inserted on the ‘AFL’ tab – then I won’t apologise as my article is not based on subjective bias…….it’s based on objective bias!!
re AFL crowds – they are a far, far harder thing to work with year on year :
obvious reasons being, that clubs don’t play the entire season at the one venue, and the draw is so ‘unbalanced’ (to put it nicely)
re revenues etc during season 2009 – the AFL budgeted in advance for such given the GFC. Recall this time last year we were looking at the decline in A-League crowds and musing as to whether it would be repeated in the AFL and/or the NRL.
It didn’t eventuate, a minor downward fluctuation in the AFL and a minor upward for NRL. The AFL figure was still the 3rd best ever (i.e. the last 3 years are the 3 best ever results – the AFL would gladly take minor fluctuation around that range for sometime to come).
Would you mind clarifying what you mean by ‘bribing local councils’?? That’s a pretty serious allegation. Is this regards the complimentary tickets to GC councillors?? Go on – tell me all codes don’t invite VIP’s along. Tell me the FFA isn’t using much of it’s $45.6 mill plus Fed Govt grant to ‘bribe’…..I mean….lobby FIFA delagates.
btw – T20, when they go city based – it’ll be good to see Carrara getting good crowds for cricket over summer. They’ll (the GC council) will be pleased to have such a venue.
Anyway – - correct – bums on seats isn’t the only measure.
And the EPL operates in a domestic population bases roughly 2.5-3 times that of Australia?? WIth a far more uniform appreciation of soccer across the nation than any code has in Australia. If we were to combine NRL and AFL we might be getting part way towards it but without the extra 30-40 million locals – it’s not gonna happen.
All that matters is within the Australian context – - EPL doesn’t flow revenue back to Australia or the HAL after all.
IN the Australian context – the AFL is doing very nicely thankyou very much. Number one on Broadcast rights, 1 on attendances, club memberships, revenue (2008 revenue was $302 million for AFL HQ alone, let alone 16 clubs at around $25-40 million turn over each – - – and, all that money flows back into the domestic economy.)
In the Australian context – the HAL is languishing in ratings well below domestic T20, has some marginal prospects of FTA but not nearly as good now as 3 years ago when bums on seats were getting respectable, revenue is still low and marketing is amateur hour. The HAL can only improve……surely!!! Or will it only ever rely on sustenance from the Socceroos? (a bit like the Sheffield shield really!!!! in years past, but, that may soon be funded by T20 depending on how it pans out).
But, when you say attendances at games is not the only measure of a sports popularity – - true, netball is hugely popular, basketball is hugely popular…….to play……not so much to watch.
Perhaps, just perhaps – soccer is simliar in the Australian context.
January 29th 2010 @ 1:02pm
Redb said | January 29th 2010 @ 1:02pm | Report comment
Yeah it takes the cake re the ‘bribes’ – FIFA – Sheesh!!
January 29th 2010 @ 1:14pm
Jay said | January 29th 2010 @ 1:14pm | Report comment
Im a leaguie and have to say cant argue with this post.
Based on a measure of national interest, attendance, participation and revenue, perhaps Cricket Australia would be the most powerful body (especially when India tours and the revamp of the T20 comp).. this however, is just my gut feeling without any research.
AFL is Australia’s most successful football code. No doubt. This is closley followed by the NRL, who, again in my humble opinion, have the most potential to improve in the coming years. RU and Football as it currently stands will have their own success, but not to the extent that the other codes do and any such success will leverage off the national sides.
Im a sports fan. Ill watch any game of RL, Cricket, EURO football, RU and the occasional blockbuster Swans and AFL games. I think its great the we are spoilt for choice, but we have be realistic about our respective (first-choice) codes… FFA bigger than AFL? Nah, no way mate.
January 29th 2010 @ 2:21pm
AndrewM said | January 29th 2010 @ 2:21pm | Report comment
Wait.. how on earth does the RL have the most potential to improve? In what sense?
Because honestly the only 2 football codes that have the most potential to improve are RU and Football. Both are expanding through the super franchise and obviously the FFA expansion in Melbourne and soon to follow sydney.
Exactly where is RL gaining? IF anything they will cull teams. Thats not gaining thats loosing.
January 29th 2010 @ 2:37pm
M1tch said | January 29th 2010 @ 2:37pm | Report comment
i would say he means due to RL can expand more nationally
January 29th 2010 @ 3:02pm
Michael C said | January 29th 2010 @ 3:02pm | Report comment
It still remains to be seen whether RU and RL can successfully co-exist in the Australian Context in a market OUTSIDE of NSW or QLD.
btw – assuming the lowest ‘base’ outside of heartland as defining the greatest growth potential wouldn’t be good logic.
January 29th 2010 @ 4:22pm
Jay said | January 29th 2010 @ 4:22pm | Report comment
I was talking strictly about the Australian sporting landscape.
Some of RL strenghts are listed below.
1. We have cities in Aust, NZ and PNG wanting to join our comp without even considering the need to expand into new markets.
2. We have FTA coverage.
3. Our next tv deal will be signficant.
4. We’re deeply entrenched in NSW and QLD or approx 50% of the population.
5. We have only recently started to tap into the membership culture. We can aspire to similar levels to the AFL in the next 30 years.
The remaining 50% of the population would arguably know more about football and RU than RL. Given that we have these resources at our disposal, we have the best potential to improve our national coverage.
January 29th 2010 @ 1:54pm
Australian Football said | January 29th 2010 @ 1:54pm | Report comment
My Gawd—–a confession at last…
~~~~~~~
AF
January 29th 2010 @ 2:01pm
Australian Football said | January 29th 2010 @ 2:01pm | Report comment
“but, as long as we get drivel like Adrian’s ‘fear and loathing’ article permitted to be inserted on the ‘AFL’ tab – then I won’t apologise as my article is not based on subjective bias…….it’s based on objective bias!!”
Oh boy MC—-that is a serious allegation..
~~~~~~~
AF
January 29th 2010 @ 12:59pm
Redb said | January 29th 2010 @ 12:59pm | Report comment
AFL crowds
2009 – 6,985,637
2008 – 7,083,015 (record)
2007 – 7,050,045
2006 – 6,736,234
2005 – 6,763,852
The 2009 result was 97,382 people off the all time record or 1.3% off, but 221,785 people up from 5 years ago or 3.3% up.
http://www.stats.rleague.com/afl/crowds/summary.html
This is a rugby league stats site.
TV ratings in Victoria were the best ever, Grand Final audience was a staggering 1.5M in Melbourne (note: top 4 all Vic teams). I dont have the relative national TV ratings for the AFL over the past 5 years, but I bet you dont either!
Redb