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The Crowd Says (48) | Page 1 of Comments

• Rowdy said | January 29th 2010 @ 2:09am | Report comment

  Interesting he didn’t add Borthers to the list of leaders. Or maybe I’m just trying to see silver linings and half-full cups. I’ll be very interested to see if he finally gives Tait a run at 13, plus the bench will be crucial – hopefully chaps like Foden, Ashton, Flood, Cole and Lawes will get a decent outing.

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    Wavell Wakefield said | January 29th 2010 @ 3:21am | Report comment

    I’m no fan of Borthwick but I think he’s the right man for this 6N. Crucially England has a deficit of leaders. Borthwick is one of the form GP locks and he has played 14 tests with Hartley – something that could be crucial in the absence of Croft.

    I’d like to see Mears, Lawes, Steffon Armitage, Care and Foden on the bench. Potentially Mears, Lawes, Haskell (if Croft were fit), Care and Foden could provide real impact. Not many nations have that sort of bench power. I’m intrigued to see what Johnson does with the front row. David Wilson is another player who could impact from the bench, and he is a far better carrying prop than Cole, but Julian White is nearing fitness so I suspect Wilson will start and White will provide reliability from the bench. England’s scrum was suspect last year, so better safe than sorry. Matt Mullan could start, but that would leave England with a very, very inexperienced front row (and pack), so it’s probably likely that Payne will start. Payne can cover 1 and 3, so if Mullan were to start then perhaps Payne would bench? The permutations are endless (well… sort of).

    I’d like to see this side given a run of 5 games (with the occasional horses for courses alteration):

    Mullan, Hartley, Wilson, Shaw, Borthwick (c), Haskell, Moody, Easter;
    Hodgson, Flood, Cueto, Flutey, Tait, Ashton, D. Armitage;

    Mears, White, Lawes, S. Armitage, Care, Wilkinson, Foden.

    What about you, Rowdy?

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    • Colin N said | January 29th 2010 @ 4:00am | Report comment

      Is Matt Mullan in the EPS? Or is he there just for the games Sheridan is injured?

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      • Pajovic said | January 29th 2010 @ 4:21am | Report comment

        England have started the usual process of releasing all the exciting young talent back to their clubs. Youngs and Ashton released the day before yesterday, which means we are edging inevitably towards the inclusion of Hodgson and Banahan……..weep.

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        • Colin N said | January 29th 2010 @ 4:46am | Report comment

          Last year before the six nations Delon Armitage was released to play for his club. It doesn’t necessarily mean they aren’t going to play.

          I think you’re being unfair on Hodgson who isn’t as much as a threat round the fringes than Care, but has a better and quicker pass, whilst having an innate ability to get to the breakdown quickly and distribute, which is more important for a scrum-half than Care’s sniping abilities.

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          Wavell Wakefield said | January 29th 2010 @ 5:18am | Report comment

          We’ve already had this debate, Pajovic. I’m with Colin. I support Hodgson. In any case, it was stated that Youngs was going back to the Saxons when the EPS alterations were released. I think, given his performance against the Ospreys, that he is nowhere near ready for test rugby and that the Saxons is currently the best place for him. If only there was an ‘A’ 6N tournament.

          Ashton dissapearing may not indicate that he is out of the running for the Wales test. Gatland has released a host of players who will most likely start for their country. I would like to see a Cueto-Ashton wing pairing, but as long as Banahan doesn’t feature I’ll be content with Monye-Cueto.
          –

          Colin, Mullan has been included for the duration.

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          • Pajovic said | January 29th 2010 @ 8:03pm | Report comment

            I thought Youngs played well against the Ospreys, he made about 4 or 5 clean breaks and nearly won the game for them, apart from one bad pass near the end he didn’t do much wrong, and whatever you say about the Ospreys, the two flankers he was up against were Jerry Collins and Marty Holah. Hodgson on the other hand, as usual, made a grand total of zero breaks against Leinster but…he’s a “good talker” waaaaa. Hodgson would be considered a premiership journeyman in any other generation – the new Shaun Perry!

            if England are playing Wilkinson at fly half then you need a breaking scrum half to keep the defence honest because they know Jonny never runs it either. If we play Hodgson and Wilkinson the opposition defence will be all over Englands’s most creative player, Flutey, like a rash because they know neither half back is ever going to take them on.

            all this stuff about Hodgson generating quick ball is pure alice in wonderland stuff, England got no quick ball when he played in the autumn. quick ball is 90% dependent on having a mobile pack that rucks aggressively and 10% about the scrum half. the reason England haven’t been getting any quick ball is because we have the likes of Deacon, Borthwick, Easter and Payne in the pack who aren’t mobile enough, and people like Mears, Borthwick and Croft who aren’t powerful enough at international level to smash people at rucks. hopefully in the six nations with Moody, Haskell, Shaw, Hartley and Wilson, with Lawes to come off the bench, England can start smashing people off the ball at rucks again. unfortunately there nothing one can do about Payne, Borthwick and Easter

            there was an interview with johnson in this free sport magazine you get on the tube today – the two things he was banging on about was “experience” and “defence” which says it all really, nothing about flair, creativity, pace, scoring tries……..

          • Colin N said | January 29th 2010 @ 10:26pm | Report comment

            “if England are playing Wilkinson at fly half then you need a breaking scrum half to keep the defence honest because they know Jonny never runs it either. If we play Hodgson and Wilkinson the opposition defence will be all over Englands’s most creative player, Flutey, like a rash because they know neither half back is ever going to take them on.”

            You simply don’t. Providing the pack is generating quick ball and Hodgson is getting it to the fly-half quickly enough, then it doesn’t matter what he’s like round the fringes or who the fly-half is.

            Sale won the Guinness Premiership by playing Wigglesworth/Martens at scrum-half and scored the most tries.

            “all this stuff about Hodgson generating quick ball is pure alice in wonderland stuff, England got no quick ball when he played in the autumn.”

            When he came on against Australia, there was an immediate lift in tempo and that was because Hodgson was getting to the break down quicker.

            Against Argentina, the ball was pretty slow, but for some reason England changed their stategy just before the match.

            New Zealand – for the parts I saw of it, the ball was fairly quick.

            On a final point, have you ever seen Easter play? He’s everywhere. He’s also incredibly hard to move at the breakdown.
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  pothale said | January 29th 2010 @ 6:29am | Report comment

  ““Anyone who predicts who will win the title is a brave guy,” he said. “Last year we lost to Ireland and Wales by a combined total of nine points,” added the former lock, but neglecting to add that it could have been a lot more only that O’Gara had a bad day at the office to convert all the penalties conceded.

  Despite this omission, I reckon England will do it this season. France won’t hold up. Ireland are going to have a blip. The scrum/front row is in dire straits. Court, Healy and Cronin need to start doing the hard yards with test game time to create a fresh bedrock of experience to be the successor line-up to the old guard. Horan and Hayes are making like Boxers at this stage.

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    Wavell Wakefield said | January 29th 2010 @ 6:49am | Report comment

    Are you content with Court representing Ireland, Pothale?

    Irish and Welsh players both stated that the toughest game they played last 6N was against England (with Gethin Jenkins going so far as to say that it was in the top 3 toughest games he had ever played). I hope that Johnson can further increase that hard-to-beat resistance, and ally it with a purposeful creativity.

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      pothale said | January 30th 2010 @ 5:00am | Report comment

      Not on current form, but the larder is fairly bare. Ireland is going to get found out this 6N. I said it at the end of last year’s comp that if new stock wasn’t brought in to replace the Boxers in the team, we’re heading downhill. Horan and Hayes need to exit before they get taken metaphorically to the knackers yard and made into glue by some eager opponents – and that could be any one of the 5 other nations.

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      • Wavell Wakefield said | January 30th 2010 @ 5:37am | Report comment

        Will Ireland be found out? I can’t see a team of that quality being found out, more likely that they might lose a close game, and these things happen after all. An unbeaten season is rare, very rare. I don’t think there’s much of a chance that such an outfit will be found out the way SA were.

        I would be surprised if Hayes makes the 2010-11 6N but neither Buckley nor Ross are putting their hands up.

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          pothale said | January 30th 2010 @ 5:43am | Report comment

          Precisely the point. The front row has been creaking for some time now. Munster have clearly fallen down and were lucky to escape against an inexperienced Hartley-led Northampton. The Saints won’t let that chance pass again in the rematch.

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• Rowdy said | January 29th 2010 @ 10:17pm | Report comment

  Experience and Defence ? Well may you weep, Pajovic. One day, hopefully in my few remaining years, we’ll pick a team with players that give the opposition coaches something to think about rather than an endless procession of journeymen picked from fear of waht the opposition might do.

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  Wavell Wakefield said | January 29th 2010 @ 10:18pm | Report comment

  Pajovic, let’s be realistic; pragmatism wins prizes at test level. England have to have a solid defence. That’s what wins World Cups, and not attacking flair. Johnson isn’t going to suddenly start talking about things that England DON’T need to do to be successful. However, that said, Johnson has spoken of a need to free up players. For mine, he is between a rock and a hard place. During the first four games of his tenure he picked a team of rookies and laissez faire runners, told them to play what was in front of them, and England duly got thumped. The coaches found a balance during the 6N and England looked simultaneously solid and promising. The next set of AIs Johnson had his best players removed and so the attacking game was nil because, I would assume, Johnson didn’t trust the players at his disposal not to get a good tuning. Hence the ‘over prescriptive’ coaching. Now the players are back I hope that Johnson doesn’t feel the need to neglect what England did well last 6N: defend and counter-ruck – although whether the pack is able is another matter. Once that platform is there the attack should follow, and last 6N saw England effect some really accurate, pacy and penetrative attack.

  Regarding rucking, yes, I agree about Payne, Deacon and Borthwick, but Sheridan, Vickery, Shaw and Worsley allowed England to really contest the breakdown last season, slow it down and set a good defence. That’s why I was cautious about the selection of Croft and Moody, and now Haskell and Moody (in all likelihood). The composition of last seasons pack is different to this season, so with forwards who can carry: Hartley, Wilson, Shaw, Haskell and Easter, perhaps the new game won’t be based around counter-attacking but a high-tempo off-loading game? Whatever game England play I see Easter as a focal point. He’s a good lineout operator, massively strong, always breaches the gain line and has neat hands. He’s an intelligent player.

  Regarding Wilkinson, England managed to attack with Goode, so I would presume they could do better with Wilkinson. I would hope so at least, I’m really not a fan of Wilkinson’s attacking instincts.

  Regarding Hodgson, he has regularly been the best English scrum half in the GP. He actually plays a lot like a French 9, which could be interesting as he gets more comfortable in an England jersey.

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• Ian Noble said | January 30th 2010 @ 2:05am | Report comment

  Clive Woodward was interviewed last night on BBC radio 5 and in his capacity as a director of Leicester he has seen the majority of the top English players. His main conclusion was the quality coming through was the best he had seen for many years. The problem for MJ is selection. He felt that there were too many players to choose from and there are considerable advantages in only having a limited number. It obviously makes selection easier and developes a consistency of selection which ultimately helps team spirit and bonding. The classic examples in the NH are Wales and Ireland. He was fairly bullish and was confident that MJ would get his selection right.

  Anyway as a Quins fan I will always say that Care is better than other SHs and is more of a threat to the opposition than Hodgson. He snipes, tap and goes and I only hope he can play his normal game when playing for England. The problem for Care is that Wilko may not be his ideal 10, he probably works better with Flood or Geharty(can’t spell), as they are both more expansive in outlook and quicker than Wilko. Hodgson is ideal for Wilko.

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  • Pajovic said | January 30th 2010 @ 3:04am | Report comment

    ‘The problem for MJ is selection. He felt that there were too many players to choose from and there are considerable advantages in only having a limited number’. – What? England have too many world class players to chose from according to Clive?

    So just by pickiing the same team on a consitent basis, they become world beaters? Too many players too chose from? This is delusion. England have maybe 3 world class players to choose from at most. Scotland should be sorted then using this delightful logic.

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    • Viscount Crouchback said | January 30th 2010 @ 12:18pm | Report comment

      Nonsense. How does a player become world-class? By playing time and time again at the highest level. Few Englishmen are awarded that opportunity. The great problem for English rugby at the moment is not a lack of talent but a lack of talent playing at the very highest levels. For instance, Jonny Wilkinson has not played any Heineken Cup matches in about a decade. That tells you all you need to know.

      The GP really needs to sort out the ridiculous situation whereby Newport-Gwent Dragons players receive more exposure to the HC than the likes of Wilkinson, Cipriani, Shaw and Borthwick.

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• Wavell Wakefield said | January 30th 2010 @ 3:21am | Report comment

  I had to do a double take when I read that comment. but I think I understand what Woodward is saying. For example, (prior to injury) at 6 there is Haskell, Croft, Worsley and Moody. At 9 there is Wigglesworth, Hodgson, Care, Ellis and the younger group. At 10 there is Myler, Geraghty, Flood, Wilkinson, Cipriani and C. Hodgson. On the wing there is Sackey, Varndell, Ashton, Cueto, Monye, Banahan and Ojo. At 2 there is Webber, Hartley, Chuter, Paice Thompson and Mears, and so on. Very few of that bunch have developed a clear gulf between themselves and their rival players, thus there must be endless permutations in the coaches head.

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  • Colin N said | January 30th 2010 @ 3:28am | Report comment

    “Webber, Hartley, Chuter, Paice Thompson and Mears,”

    And Briggs

    But in all seriousness, I think Woodward is right, there is depth in English rugby and you can’t deny the likes of Cipriani, Waldouck, Ojo, Monye, Lawes etc don’t have the potential to become world class players, as they clearly do. It’s about nuturing the talent, picking them at the right time and playing to a game plan which suits all of them. That’s something England have got wrong over the last few years.

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    • Wavell Wakefield said | January 30th 2010 @ 4:42am | Report comment

      You’re right, Colin. Briggs should be in the Saxons squad at least.

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• Wavell Wakefield said | January 30th 2010 @ 3:27am | Report comment

  Where has the edit button gone?

  Anyhow, to continue… if we contrast that with Wales and Ireland. Who can Ireland pick at 6? Ferris or… Quinlan. At 9? O’Leary or Boss? Who can Wales pick at 2? Rees or Bennett? There is a definite gulf in these countries between the match 22 and their replacements, hence Wales were demolished by Australia and Kidney has generally been a very consistent/conservative selector. I don’t think that’s the case with England. Not that such a suggestion implies that England is overburdened with excellence, simply that they have more players who are roughly at the same level.

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• Ian Noble said | January 30th 2010 @ 4:12am | Report comment

  I don’t whether you can pick up Clive Woodwards interview on i-player because I was certainly taken aback by his comments. My view is that there certainly is depth but what is the quality of that depth in terms of world class and what does world class actually mean. Rugby is the ultimate team game and it is the sum of the parts that dictate the success of that team. In the GP we have seen recently a number of SH players who have not been as succesful as individuals away from their national teams. Why? Probably because the teams do not have the ability to function at the same high level and consequently as a individual player they become very ordinary. MJ’s focus has got to be on getting a team together and moulding the individuals together, a tough call and he may have to ditch the idea of introducing a player of sublime skills for the benefit of the team. Over the years there have been many examples remember Barnes v Andrew.

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  pothale said | January 30th 2010 @ 5:05am | Report comment

  Colin, WW – what’s your take on the game on Sunday – Saxons v Wolfhounds – as they’ve decided to become in the A games?

  Ireland took England apart in the Churchill Final in Denver – a more balanced game this time, or is it in favour of England again?

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  • Wavell Wakefield said | January 30th 2010 @ 5:42am | Report comment

    I thought the Wolfhounds were the Irish Barbarians?

    Dno what I make of the Saxons, pothale (beyond the jarring historical innacruarcy). They were hideous during the Churchill, and Lancaster is still in charge, so who knows? The balance of the side looks good (built to run) and there’s an emphasis on youth. I don’t think the side looks like world beaters but players like Waldouck, Geraghty, Paice, Doran-Jones, Attwood and Dowson etc need this sort of exposure. Haven’t seen the Irish team yet. I’ll check it out.

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    • Wavell Wakefield said | January 30th 2010 @ 7:15am | Report comment

      Wolfhounds it is:

      http://www.irishrugby.ie/283_19522.php

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  pothale said | January 30th 2010 @ 6:16am | Report comment

  Here’s the two squads. Ireland have only four of the starting line-up from the Summer. Kidney has put Stringer and Wallace together – presumably to build back-up for the 10 spot.

  IRELAND A : Gavin Duffy (Galwegians/Connacht); Fionn Carr (Galwegians/Connacht), Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster), Keith Matthews (Buccaneers/Connacht), Ian Dowling (Shannon/Munster); Paddy Wallace (Ballymena/Ulster), Peter Stringer (Shannon/Munster); Marcus Horan (Shannon/Munster), Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster), Tony Buckley (Shannon/Munster); Mick O’Driscoll (Cork Constitution/Munster, capt), Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster), Shane Jennings (St Mary’s College/Leinster), Seán O’Brien (Clontarf/Leinster), John Muldoon (Galwegians/Connacht). Replacements: John Fogarty (DLSP/Leinster), Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster), Ryan Caldwell (Dungannon/Ulster), Niall Ronan (Shannon/Munster), Isaac Boss (Ballymena/Ulster), Ian Humphreys (Ballymena/Ulster), Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster).

  ENGLAND SAXONS: Alex Goode (Saracens); David Strettle (Harlequins), Dominic Waldouck (London Wasps), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Noah Cato (Saracens); Shane Geraghty (Northampton Saints), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers); Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby), David Paice (London Irish), Paul Doran-Jones (Gloucester); Dave Attwood (Gloucester), George Skivington (London Wasps, capt); Tom Wood (Worcester Warriors), Andy Saull (Saracens), Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints). Replacements: Tom Mercey (Saracens), Rob Webber (London Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Luke Narraway (Gloucester), Micky Young (Newcastle Falcons), Jon Clarke (Northampton Saints), Miles Benjamin (Worcester Warriors).

  If you can bear watching there’s a good You Tube clip of the match albeit one-sided – it only shows the Irish tries – but the team one finished off by Johne Murphy is a peach. Felix Jones, McFadden and Cronin are stand-outs.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JACtIbUSMvk

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  • Wavell Wakefield said | January 30th 2010 @ 6:34am | Report comment

    Some quick observations:

    - Wallace at 10. I’m not impressed. Humphreys for me.
    - Two 7s starting but Nial Ronan only makes the bench.
    - Best being rushed back to test rugby.
    - Horan being rushed back to test rugby.
    - Caldwell on the bench. What’s happened to him? He’s not even getting a start for Ulster.
    - McFadden (not a Leinster regular) is keeping out Cave.
    - No Trimble?!
    - I’m not familiar with the Connacht players, but the province is well represented.

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      pothale said | January 30th 2010 @ 6:54am | Report comment

      I’d say that because Humphreys is a natural 10, Wallace gets the nod because he has more utility and they want a back-up for O’Gara/Sexton.

      Jennings is on because he’s also being rushed back to test rugby – he only laster 60 mins before O’Brien came on. though as I’ve previously O’Brien is the comer in this lot.

      Horan being rushed back is no surprise, nor is Best – we’re in shallow waters on the front row. Flannery is out/off-form. Jackman should have got the shepher’d hook after his first three throws last week – his darts were appalling. Fogarty is almost last man standing. Cronin for Connacht is better than him, in my view. And also from Connacht is the Magner’s leading try scorer this season – Fionn Carr – a real scorcher (who has dismaying tacking abilities unfortunately but they could be worked on.)

      Caldwell not getting a start with Ulster cos of another guy who’s not even in this squad – has been in outstanding form for Ulster, and might be a replacement down the line for one of the Os. Started out with Gloucester (or was he born there, can’t remember.)

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      • Wavell Wakefield said | January 30th 2010 @ 7:11am | Report comment

        When is Wallace going to get the chance to play 10 again? I sort of see the logic, but not completely.

        Is Brett Wilkinson not in the reckoning? Gosh, Bernard Jackman was doing the rounds when Ireland toured SA under Paddy Johns.

        Caldwell – Tuohy or the Australian O’Donoghue?

        Never heard of Fionn Carr. Must be that English arrogance. I’ll check him out.

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          pothale said | January 30th 2010 @ 11:44am | Report comment

          I dunno to be honest about when Wallace plays 10 again, if you assume the senior 22 is always going to contain O’Gara and Sexton. However, if one of them gets injured, you need to have someone else on the bench. And Wallace is the only one, and is out of practice in the position at test level. Otherwise, Humphs Jnr gets to have a lonely spot waiting for an injury to happen, cos he won’t get on for any other position.

          Wilkinson is in the panel – and I thought he might have got a fillip this season since he’s been playing his heart out in the West.

          I meant to say Tuohy – former Glaws playes and was a real tyro for the northern boys in their last couple of games – like the look of him.

          Very difficult to see Carr play – Setanta don’t cover all their matches, and there’s no clips on you Tube that I can ever find.

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