How the Celtic League could be truly Celtic
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By rugbyfuture, 29 Jan 2010 rugbyfuture is a Roar Guru
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The Magners League could be considered the best rugby competition in Europe currently. This is mostly due to the success of the Welsh and Irish teams in the H cup.
It is the smallest top flight competition in Europe, however, next to the Italian Top 10.
Originally the competition consisted of 15 teams, mostly from Wales. Wales then consolidated teams, due to financial constraints, and reduced to four teams. Scotland similarly had to dump two teams along the way – Border and Caledonia.
Ireland have created and sustained four teams based on the traditional provinces.
Now as they look to expansion of the competition, two Italian teams are supposed to join (with some doubt coming in recently) and the WRU have had a long term strategic plan for North Wales for a few years. This would mean Wales would have five teams, Ireland four and Scotland two, with possibly two Italian teams.
Scotland, however, are also looking to readmit two teams once finances are realigned and reach a point of parity and following that profit. This could mean the readmission of the Border Reivers and Caledonia Reds. All of this adds up to thirteen teams, minus the Italians.
This is certainly an odd number. But what can they do: financial constraints and a probable need to keep it as “Celtic” as possible.
There are two forgotten Celtic nations, however: Brittany, in the north west of France, and Cornwall, in the south west of England. Both could play a part here (its sounding very Super 15-ish).
The Cornish pirates are the top flight team in the Cornwall region.
They have been trying to gain entry into the premiership for a few years now and have a large following in the region. There are regular rumours of building a suitable premiership stadium and continued growth through mergers and acquisitions with other clubs from other codes.
With proper development, and a good strategic plan, a change in direction could be achieved, making it possible for entry into a possible 15 team Celtic league.
This would be good for the cultural links, the English rugby community, and the Magners league, spreading popularity south and getting the RFU partially involved.
A 15th team has two options for this scenario, although one probably has little viability.
The Isle of Man has a long history in rugby, but does not have full sustainability in terms of population and popularity. But it could prove a good offering.
The most viable option, though, is a team based in Brittany, France.
This area, although in the north of France, and lacking a Top 14 team, has hosted rugby before (RWC) and has a growing following, as well as being in the Celtic League of Nations.
This is the most promising place if there was to be a fifteenth Celtic League rugby nation.
Of course, this scenario would be a long way off, with the Welsh only recently recovering financially and the Scots still in a bad situation. But if expansion was to ever take place, I see this as the direction it could, and should, take.
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chris said | January 29th 2010 @ 2:05am | Report comment
Love to see Cornish Rugby in top flight comp like the english GP but can not see that for the next 10 years with Leeds and Bristol playing yo-yo between the Premiership and Nat 1.
Lets hope Exeter gets ring fenched in the GP and the Pirates join the CL hence we see them in the HEC against the British teams.
pothale said | January 29th 2010 @ 6:19am | Report comment
“The Magners League could be considered the best rugby competition in Europe currently. This is mostly due to the success of the Welsh and Irish teams in the H cup.”
It couldn’t really be considered the best rugby competition in Europe. The Heineken Cup is. And after that the Top 14, and after that the Guinness Premiership and then the Magners League which would make it last really.
Wales haven’t had any success in the Heineken Cup. Nor Scotland. England have won it the most. Followed by France. Ireland last with three wins.
I had thought about the involvement of a team from France – a Breton one. Had forgotten about the Cornish connection.
I think the likelihood of Italian teams joining next season is receeding.
Colin N said | January 29th 2010 @ 7:33am | Report comment
Pothale, I was going to say the same thing, but in essence I don’t think Heineken Cup success represents the quality of the league necessarilly. The ML sides tend to rotate their squad around the HEC, whereas for the English and especially French clubs, it’s the other way round.
I think Toby Booth complained that his squad was too thin to compete on both fronts, however Cheika countered this argument by saying he didn’t have his top players for something like 10 games. But they are available for the HEC games. However, if these top players aren’t available for these ML games, the quality will obviously be less.
rugbyfuture said | January 29th 2010 @ 6:41pm | Report comment
i would consider the h cup more of a an amalgam league and didn’t consider it as a part of the same level in the heirarchy as the ML, GP, T14 or T10.
i would consider it better than the GP and in a better spirit than the T14, but thats my opinion.
but yeh, cornish and a team from brittany, i think just of anything else, would be good for the culturalpart and tribalism that could evolve around it.
The Phantom said | January 29th 2010 @ 7:46am | Report comment
Bring on the Pirates I say!!!!!! Don’t forget there is also Plymouth Albion also on the Cornish border.
Grandpabhaile said | January 29th 2010 @ 9:04am | Report comment
For the last 3-4 seasons, Munster and Leinster have been the two big fish in a fairly small pond. They have outgrown the Magners. Irish teams have regularly won the Celtic League in all its forms more often than not over the last decade. More recently, they have been there or thereabouts without really trying. The magners isn’t going to be sufficient to sustain them going forward – a bit like Rangers and Celtic in the Scottish soccer league. With playoffs, they’ll slacken off more as long as they get into top 4.
Maybe Ospreys migght join them as a welsh rep. There should be a realignment of the teams with their UK counterparts to give a robust and top quality league outside the H Cup. Put Top 4 from ML with Top 6 from GP and you’d have a real premier league.
Sam said | January 29th 2010 @ 1:14pm | Report comment
I think the Celtic League is better to expand into Italy at the moment. The Italian Top 10 just isn’t producing enough quality players, and the rationalisation of the game into two regions makes a lot of sense (look at the success that Ireland and Wales have had). It’d expose more Italian players to a more consistently high level of rugby. As well, re-establishing a team in the Scottish Borders has to be a priority – it’s the only region of Scotland where rugby is the most popular sport. How they will make this financially possible is anyones guess.
As for your suggestion that the Cornish Pirates join the Celtic League, this may be good for the Celtic League but don’t know if the RFU is going to be too happy with the idea (it would be against IRB rules for the Cornish Pirates to join without the RFU’s approval). If we are going to talk about English clubs going into the competition what about London Welsh and London Scottish? Both have a strong history and there aren’t a huge number of London based clubs in the top English divisions.
I do agree that the Celtic League is at least as good as the English Premiership though, and certainly close to that of the Top 14. The reason? They don’t have promotion relegation, and they don’t flog their players to death to quite the extent. The Scottish and Irish teams don’t play too much rugby (they don’t compete in the Anglo-Welsh Cup) which helps, and they don’t play ugly football because of the overwhelming fear of relegation.
rugbyfuture said | January 29th 2010 @ 6:44pm | Report comment
the WRU have also been studying entering london wlesh i heard. but i don’t see why they would be upset by the cornish team joining the ML, it would make quite a lot of sense and give the RFU a stake in it.
Sam said | January 31st 2010 @ 6:59pm | Report comment
It would piss off every other club not in the premiership – the RFU would be aware of this. Plus of course it would be expanding the fan base of a foreign competition at the expense of it’s own.
Viscount Crouchback said | January 29th 2010 @ 1:28pm | Report comment
Nice idea. But I doubt that the RFU or FFR would assent. It would open up a huge can of worms – the Cornish today, Gloucester tomorrow? No English or French administrator would permit their domestic competitons to be undermined in such a way.
There are two things to remember about the Magners: (1) Its market is really very limited (c. 15m people); and (2) It’s in a Catch-22 – the more competitive it becomes, the harder the ML teams will find it to compete in Europe. As Colin points out, the Celts do okay in the HC because they don’t take the ML seriously. If they all suddenly began to take the ML as seriously as the English do the GP, then their results in Europe would soon drop off. Ultimately, all the Welsh and Irish really care about is beating the English, so don’t expect the ML to become more competitive any time soon.
Anything might happen to the structure of the club game over the next decade. The Welsh would drop their fellow Celts like a hot potato if they were offered the chance of an Anglo-Welsh league. It’ll be fascinating to see how it all pans out.
rugbyfuture said | January 29th 2010 @ 6:51pm | Report comment
The reason the Cornish and Brittany teams would be viable would be because of the cultural connections and the support and tribal essence which could be brought with regional teams from these countries joining in. this wouldn’t extend to those clubs far within the english borders and greater anglo saxon connections. it would be a greater recognition of the celtic identity and a very open way for the celtic league of nations to express themselves, growing the game in the brittany region and creating better favour within the cornish region.
im not completely savvy on the issues surrounding how hard they play in the ML compared to the H cup, but the “anglo-welsh league” fell through previous to the establishment and rumours have sprung up, but i think its much like the rumours of the saffas leaving super rugby.
pothale said | January 30th 2010 @ 6:02am | Report comment
They probably do, WW. Maybe that’s contributed to the change in mindset, or the traditional Ireland v England test match confrontation isn’t so apparent at club level, given that the teams are sprinkled with a fair amount of non-nationals – so to speak.
pothale said | January 30th 2010 @ 6:05am | Report comment
Oh that’s in the wrong place. No edit function anymore to correct it.
the angl0-welsh league fell down cos the Welsh regions got thrown out of the Celtic League the last time they tried to have jam on their egg.
There’s still something simmering though with Wales making noises at Scotland’s commitments if they withdraw from the =LV Cup. But I’ve quite understood what the connection is on that one.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 30th 2010 @ 6:06am | Report comment
Maybe baby, maybe. I suspect that the fact England has been easily (comparatively) managed by Ireland in the 6N since 2003 might be a factor too.
Viscount Crouchback said | January 30th 2010 @ 12:02pm | Report comment
I wouldn’t go overboard on the whole Celtic thing, rugbyfuture. Cornishmen are first and foremost Englishmen. Just ask Phil Vickery.
rugbyfuture said | January 30th 2010 @ 12:30pm | Report comment
the point is he still has a strong feeling of being a cornnishman, that doesnt say he isn’t proud of being english too, but given the opportunity and the money, don’t you think he would be willing to play for a cornish team? the cornish still havea great deal of self identity in correlation with modern pan celtism and those cultural ties would be there. The Celtic league of nations would be willing to support it i would say.
Viscount Crouchback said | January 30th 2010 @ 12:46pm | Report comment
The point is: the Cornish are English, the RFU rules the English game, and there is absolutely no way they would be prepared to accept English teams joining the Magners League. It is that simple.
The whole “pan-Celt” thing is absolute poppycock put about by romantics with zero knowledge of history. The reality is that the Celts are as divided amongst themselves – see Celtic and Rangers – as they ever were (supposedly) united against the English.
rugbyfuture said | January 30th 2010 @ 1:14pm | Report comment
the rfu does rule the game, but its still a strong sub union, the cornish rugby football union.
the celtic-rangers thing is an example of british influence where the nationalists and britishists(?) are divided, not the modern celts and modern celts.
Joh4Canberra said | February 5th 2010 @ 1:08am | Report comment
I agree with the Viscount here. The RFU would not be in favour of this. And without RFU approval it’s not going to happen. Yes of course Cornwall could in theory gnore the RFU’s wishes and go ahead and join the ML and the ML unions (Wales, Scotland and Ireland) could in theory ignore the RFU’s protestations and admit Cornwall. But there would be consequences to such a move — and no-one would be willing to pay the price. There would of course be consequences for the players in the Cornwall ML region (eg no chance of test selection). But more than that there would also be much more serious consequence for the celtic league organising unions — Wales, Scotland and Ireland — who along with the RFU are all members of the IRB. I imagine there would have to be is a basic principle of “territorial integrity” for IRB member unions. Any IRB member union which admits a team from another IRB member union without the latter’s permission would be subject to expulsion from the IRB which would mean no more Wales, Scotland and Ireland test teams. So without the RFU’s backing this is not going to happen.
And, moreover, while there is a bit of a distinct “Cornwall identity” it’s not all that strong. 500 years ago, yes of course they spoke a different language and hated the English with a passion. But nowadays they are basically Englishmen living in a region with a distinct history and an extinct celtic language. Revive the Cornish language and maybe you’ll revive the celtic sentiment. Until then it’s not going to happen.
Jannerboyuk said | February 5th 2010 @ 5:22am | Report comment
Dude you are vastly overstating the celtic identity of people in cornwall, outside of the county ruby union side having the occasional trip to HQ. Cornish identity has developed recently but nowhere near the level of wales. I come from plymouth and now live in wales so i can see the contrast.
the magners league is a nice comp but its nowhere near the top 14 of the guiness premiership and welsh and scottish crowds are pretty awful for it. Shame that italy have been refused admission but i dont think the finances added up, which doesnt surprise me to be honest.
pothale said | January 30th 2010 @ 3:40am | Report comment
The Welsh may care about beating the english clubs, but the Irish have moved on. France is now important than English clubs as the ones to beat.
Besides which the Celts don’t do okay in the HC. Collectively they’re pretty poor in the HC. The exception are the Irish provinces, but they’re still behind England and France in success.
The competitiveness in the GP is linked to money and private ownership. The ML is a centrally contracted, regional competion set up for a different purpose. There is no comparison. It’s comparing apples and pears
Wavell Wakefield said | January 30th 2010 @ 4:58am | Report comment
‘The Welsh may care about beating the english clubs, but the Irish have moved on. France is now important than English clubs as the ones to beat.’
Maybe that explains the single win that Munster and Leinster recorded against Northampton and London Irish respectively, pothale. A case of relaxed priorities.
pothale said | January 30th 2010 @ 5:20am | Report comment
Possibly. There have been other English teams along the way though, WW.
French teams are seen as the ones to beat, particularly in away matches. And the triumphs are relished/celebrated more. As a Leinster fan, who would I relish more a victory against – Harlequins or Toulouse? Leicester or Clermont Auvergne? Wasps or Stade Francais? Northampton or Biarritz? No contest. Admittedly, London Irish is a slightly different kettle of fish but in my case that’s more cos of personal ties.
Leinster and Munster have the odds against them for either to reach the final this year, but that’s no bad thing.
In contrast Ulster hadn’t won on English soil in yonks – their win last weekend meant as much to them. A demon vanquished likely.
Wavell Wakefield said | January 30th 2010 @ 5:34am | Report comment
I’m only joshing, pothale. I would have thought that in the past few years the Leinster and Munster have a better away record in France than in England?
Viscount Crouchback said | January 30th 2010 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
By the players, perhaps.
By the fans and media, not on your nelly, old fruit.
The Irish newspapers have been full of triumphant nonsense about dishing the English this week. It’s as much of an obsession as it ever was.
pothale said | January 31st 2010 @ 12:42am | Report comment
Well – you see what you want to see, VC.
To my mind, media – Irish or English/British – has always sought the dividing line, not the combining one. And the ballyhoo about only one GP team making the HC quarters was fomented and led by the English-published newspapers.
Fans – excluding the spotty teenage types who seem to inhabit most of the UK blog fora – are well beyond the specific triumphalism you seem to perceive about playing English club teams. I stand regularly amongst Irish rugby fans, and if anything it’s the French teams are the ones that set the bar in terms of getting one over them. I don’t mean this disparagingly, but Northampton are the same as Ospreys or Edinburgh – a team to beat, not that they are particularly an English club.
It’s probably different at test level, but even that is dissipating compared to previously. For the last few seasons, France have been the team to beat. The inaugural Croke Park match against England was probably an exception, but even that match displayed the new-found respect teams/fans have for each other. This season, the match Ireland must win, and want to win, is the game in Paris. The players and fans know it. The England game is not the ‘historical conflict’ it used to be. Though as we’ve spoken about previously, I still wish it was Pullin’s successors who were turning up for the inaugural Lansdowne match in November. Simply being the first part of a South African ‘grand-slam’ tour takes away from the occasion, which is a shame.
JF said | January 29th 2010 @ 3:03pm | Report comment
Looks like the italian inclusions will not eventuate.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2010/0129/1224263356274.html
Sam said | January 29th 2010 @ 3:21pm | Report comment
Wow – what a disaster. That is a real shame; especially because the Super 10 teams have basically been planning for a semi-pro competition next year.
mjg said | January 29th 2010 @ 9:20pm | Report comment
The French have no interest in promoting anything Celtic, as I understand it. Cornwall could be a starter though.
Rowdy said | January 29th 2010 @ 10:19pm | Report comment
I guess if the GP dropped 40% of their games and abolished relegation then the clubs could concentrate on the HEC and – who knows – the GP could well approach the Magners League for sheer blinding quality.
Where’s the rolling eyes smiley when you need it ?
rugbyfuture said | January 29th 2010 @ 10:43pm | Report comment
this isn’t all about which is the top league in europe, but on improving the Magners league and creating a greater celtic connection, as well as fulfilling the dreams of the cornish rugby union to have a top flight proffesional team.
pothale said | January 30th 2010 @ 3:32am | Report comment
On the other hand, the ML could add in the Italian teams, introduce relegation, and then have to play a whole four more games, and be able to moan and whine about how they can’t play decent rugby anymore cos they’re flogged to death by October with the endurance test they have to go through and all the foreign players now in the League with a salary cap.
Rowdy said | February 1st 2010 @ 11:42pm | Report comment
English rugby players ? Whine ? I’m shocked you could think that.
pothale said | January 30th 2010 @ 11:10am | Report comment
I forgot to add that relegation is a grande herring rouge in this argument vs GP/Top 14. The top teams in the GP and T14 are never under threat of relegation – it’s the equivalent of saying that Man United, Arsenal Chelsea, Liverpool face the threat of relegation each year. In theory they do, but not in reality.
What cushions the teams in the ML is automatic country qualification for the Heineken. Connacht is the only team in the ML that doesn’t stand a chance of qualifying in the league. Albeit this year, they finished as top seeds in the pool stages of the Challenge Cup, and might, with a fair wind, make the semi-finals.
What the ML needs, even without Italians joining, is a Top 6 placing automatic entry to H Cup with no determined country allocation. So if last season’s ML standings were used, then it would have been Munster, Edinburgh, Leinster, Ospreys, Scarlets, Blues who automatically qualified.
The remaining 3 places get fought out in qualifying matches with other GP and T14 teams. Viadana and Treviso should not be getting into the H Cup automatically – they imbalance the runners-up spots in the pool stages of the H Cup practically every year. Northampton and Ospreys who got the 7th and 8th runners-up spots for the quarter-finals both had Italian teams in their pools and were practically guaranteed 8-10 points – notwithstanding Treviso’s better than usual performance this year.
Being permanently flogged to death each season is no way to learn for the Italians. Getting ahead in a second-tier comp such as the Challenge Cup would give a better learning/development curve for these kind of teams. And if they happen to win the Challenge Cup, they’ve earned their right to be in the Heineken the following season.
And if there was to be some comp involving other celtic clubs, then maybe look at restoring the knock-out Celtic Cup with 12 teams and involving teams like Cornish Pirates, and a Breton Club. at the same time, drop the Anglo-Welsh Cup, thus cutting the GP clubs to 22 games each season, and everybody wins.
Or something like that.