By Luke D'Anello
February 3rd 2010 @ 1:07am
Related coverage
AFL to finally rid the game of stagers
Byron Schammer of Fremantle is bumped from the ball by Mark Lecras of West Coast during the AFL Round 18 match between the West Coast Eagles and Fremantle Dockers at the Subiaco Oval. Slattery Images
Those in positions of power at AFL House are criticised heavily when they do something wrong, so it is only fair we acknowledge them when they do something right. Finally, the league is going to come down on a group of players no one likes – the stagers.
This season will see players fined for faking, or accentuating, contact.
A first offence will draw a reprimand, while a second offence will see the player fined $1600. A third offence will attract a fine of $2400.
While many, including myself, may like to see a one-match ban for a third offence, this move is a step forward and the league deserves a tick.
Australian Rules Football was never going to be like soccer – a sport where players, it appears, stage for fun.
We didn’t want that.
But it was important to knock the issue on the head before it got out of control. Players are often looked upon as role models for the younger generation of budding AFL stars.
We don’t want staging filtering down to junior levels and even local suburban competitions.
There will be players who will continue to try and bend the rules – even at AFL level – but the message has been set and the standards have been spelt out: play for a free kick and expect a penalty.
There are not many things that make the ardent fan in the outer more frustrated than a free-kick to an opposition player who has, obviously, staged.
AFL players, in the past, have admitted they do it. Some may still get away with it, but Big Brother is watching.
This new rule will help the umpires, because players, more than likely, will attack contests without the thought of accentuating contact in the hope of gaining a free possession.
The game is very difficult to umpire today, due to the varied rules. Umpires, I believe, will breathe a sigh of relief that players will, finally, be answerable for their actions regarding staging.
But the umpires need to also be aware of what is and isn’t classified as staging.
Past players and commentators should be happy with the move, as well as the fans. It should be a win-win for all.
In the past, supporters have encouraged the AFL to let the game be and to leave the rules as they are.
But when it is in the best interests of the league, and the game as a whole, we should support such changes.
This change is necessary and a big tick goes to the AFL for applying common-sense.
Get Australia's best AFL opinion emailed daily.
Like this content? Buzz it up!
Free Email updates:
Our daily emails are only sent if there is content for the sport or that author. You can subscribe to multiple daily emails; or get the daily Roar email with all our content in it. We value privacy. More...
(117)
Ahh Steve, the cultural icon of Pretoria and father of many.
Tifosi said | February 3rd 2010 @ 5:06am | Report comment
But i thought only soccer players dived……………..
Ben said | February 3rd 2010 @ 8:54am | Report comment
Apparently they do – Channel 10 early news this morning couldn’t help taking a cheap shot at the world game when reporting on this issue this morning . . .
Redb said | February 3rd 2010 @ 8:57am | Report comment
Maybe becuase the most blatent staging happens in soccer.
Ben said | February 3rd 2010 @ 9:55am | Report comment
Sure, it’s nice for the AFL to be stamping this sort of behaviour out of the Aussie game, as should FIFA for football, but it’s the typical holiour than thou attitude of the AFL-centric media that peeves me: “yep, we’ve got this problem, but look, it’s nowhere near as bad as that backward soccer mob”.
Redb said | February 3rd 2010 @ 10:08am | Report comment
just another media conspiracy against soccer.
Ben said | February 3rd 2010 @ 10:16am | Report comment
Conspirary theories are crap, your comment is crap, and the treatment of football by the Aussie media is crap – even a monkey could recognise that. I’m all for stamping poor sportsmanship out of sport, including AFL, but don’t try to leverage support for the new policy from football – it’s just a cheap attempt at one-upmanship.
Beast-A-Tron said | February 3rd 2010 @ 11:36am | Report comment
Well soccer provides the benchmark for staging, why wouldn’t the media reference to it?
Beast-A-Tron said | February 3rd 2010 @ 10:21am | Report comment
All sports have a degree of acting, but soccer has to be the worst. A rational outlook on the structure of soccer demonstrates:
Soccer is low scoring and the value of an individual goal is exceedingly high and therefore the INCENTIVE to stage for a penalty is correspondingly higher in this sport. A single staged penalty can earn the match winning goal in soccer!
Granted in other sports a penalty can also earn the match winning score, but the incentive to do so is much lower as scoring (and the opportunity to score) is more frequent in other sports. The incentive to cheat is therefore diluted.
Soccer fans don’t like to admit it, but their sport is the worst for staging due to its dynamic low scoring nature combined with highly paid professional players.
Redb said | February 3rd 2010 @ 10:27am | Report comment
Cricket has its share of staging as well.
How many appeals by bowlers are over the top wtih clearly no danger of wicket being taken?
Just wastes everyones time. Some appeals are like the grunts by tennis players, ie: only designed to put their oppoent off.
Beast-A-Tron said | February 3rd 2010 @ 10:34am | Report comment
An appeal is an appeal, it is their right to do so. The umpire adjudicates.
Its not like you see batsmen pretending to trip over opposition fielders, now that would be real staging in cricket.
Lazza said | February 3rd 2010 @ 11:50am | Report comment
Yes and it also means that ‘Soccer’ requires the greatest discipline and mental strength since one goal can decide a game. In AFL, if you make a mistake that results in a goal for the opposition then it’s not that costly since there are so many goals scored.
In ‘Soccer’ one goal can decide a game, a championship or even a World Cup.
Lazza said | February 3rd 2010 @ 11:57am | Report comment
All professiobnal sports have ‘cheating’ or bending the rules to gain an advantage. The more competitive and cutthroat the sport is the more incidents. What did we just see in Cricket recently?
The interesting thing is that AFL fans and media used to moralise about this issue and then use it as a convenient excuse to attack ‘Soccer”. Now they’re are admitting that they have the same problem in their sport?
If it’s all about cheating and conning the umpire then when are we going to penalise AFL players for deliberately putting the ball out of play? Apparently if you ‘disguise’ it properly then it’s deemed to be smart play? Talk about a cheating culture.
Michael C said | February 4th 2010 @ 5:17am | Report comment
Lazza -
greatest discipline and mental strength?!?!?!?
in AFL, you may only make a half a mistake and you may concede a goal – - – in soccer, you may make half a dozen mistakes and have nothing to worry about because of the inherent protection of the combination of off-side, x-bars and goalies with hands!!!!
what soccer has is it’s own unique requirements of mental discipline and strength. but, ‘greatest’ – - – get over yourself.
RickG said | February 3rd 2010 @ 7:20am | Report comment
Now, if only the FFA or better still FIFA could do something similar
AndyRoo said | February 3rd 2010 @ 9:06am | Report comment
The FFA have a match review panel that dishes out 2 match bans for taking a dive.
That’s much more severe than the AFL penalty.
Redb said | February 3rd 2010 @ 10:07am | Report comment
Becuase it is a much bigger problem no doubt.
AndyRoo said | February 3rd 2010 @ 10:20am | Report comment
Perceived to be at least
“The AFL takes a hard line to prove it’s not soft like soccer”
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/the-afl-takes-a-hard-line-to-prove-its-not-soft-like-soccer-20100202-nb2o.html
bit rich considering that the FFA already have rules in place against diving and you can get involved in as many melees as you want in the A league with no fear of punishment….. to the point fans are sick of them and Foster calling for Punishment (AFL style)
Redb said | February 3rd 2010 @ 10:33am | Report comment
AndyRoo,
As many of your soccer brethern are quick to point out, soccer is not just the A League or the FFA. Most of the youtue classics come from overseas leagues, Asian,etc where it is considered part of the game and not frowned upon..
Another quote which i think is closer to the mark:
“There’s always been staging, but there has never been a staging culture, as exists in the global game (even though soccer officially frowns on it). By acting now, the AFL is signalling that it does not want this culture to grow. The game is hard enough to umpire without having to deal with diving and other deceptions, bearing in mind that television highlights the actor’s work.”
Redb
AndyRoo said | February 3rd 2010 @ 10:51am | Report comment
“brethern”
Yeh I better be careful or they will boot me for my dissenting views of “not giving a monkeys about the Paraguayan second divions and 4% growth in Guam”
So um World game….tsunami …. channel 7 etc etc, you know the drill.
Back on topic, it is a good move by the AFL and it’s probably like whatever solution they come up for the tanking problem. It’s more an issue of perception than reality and the fear of being branded a faker will keep the players in line mostly.
Redb said | February 3rd 2010 @ 11:55am | Report comment
I dont mean THE brethern but you know what I mean
David said | February 3rd 2010 @ 7:31am | Report comment
There’s a reason the AFL waited until Matthew Lloyd retired before bringing this in.
Brett McKay said | February 3rd 2010 @ 7:52am | Report comment
I used to half-joke with an Essendon supporting former colleague that Matthew Lloyd used to send his nose to the ground quicker than a Customs labrador, so perhaps he retired just in time!!
Morning Redb
Redb said | February 3rd 2010 @ 8:03am | Report comment
Saw Matty Lloyd at the airport the other day in the International section the leash didn’t make any sense at the time
I reckon Lloydy gets a bum rap, he is a typcial leading forward, he takes the ball at full stretch to evade scragging defenders – he use to miss out on far more free kicks than given. yeah OK I have one red eye and one black.
However, mostly this rule change is for the real stagers: Didak, Boomer Harvey (morning MC), and the other small forwards who play up to the ump that suffer from short man sydrome
Redb
James said | February 3rd 2010 @ 11:37am | Report comment
“and the other small forwards” = Stephen Milne.
Named & shamed on the offical AFL DVD!
Michael C said | February 4th 2010 @ 5:21am | Report comment
Boomer got over it – after a game vs the Doggies a couple of years ago,
worst presently is Brad Johnson,……(Mister Football??), and anyone from Collingwood (esp Didak and Medhurst).
Brett McKay said | February 3rd 2010 @ 8:09am | Report comment
I used to think was evading snipers in the stands, but there you go, it was scragging defenders all this time!!
Redb said | February 3rd 2010 @ 8:12am | Report comment
Hawthorn folk will tell you Matty Lloyd is the sniper – isn’t that right Campbell Brown ?
We are going to tear the hawks a new one when we meet this season. Can’t wait.
Redb
Hazey the Bear said | February 3rd 2010 @ 10:07am | Report comment
Could be worse Redb!
Remember the “seagull” that Sheedy ranted on about during that infamous West Coast game?
Redb said | February 3rd 2010 @ 10:10am | Report comment
Yep. Seagulls and Martians always invade games.
BigAl said | February 3rd 2010 @ 8:02am | Report comment
It will be very interesting.
To me though, it appears to add to that bizarre area of rules where the ump. has to be a mind reader.
i.e. determine the ‘intent’ of the player re. rushed behinds and ‘deliberate’ out of bounds etc.
There will ALWAYS be problems with it,
Redb said | February 3rd 2010 @ 8:08am | Report comment
This rule change is one of those deterrent types, ie: just letting all the players know particularly the certain few who do stage for free kicks that “we know who you are and we are watching”.
At the moment on the field, the umpire if he spots a ’stage’ will simply not award a free kick and therefore the player gets off without any sanction.
It’s a pretty minor rule change and will have little effect other than just putting the spotlight on it.
Redb
Beast-A-Tron said | February 3rd 2010 @ 10:31am | Report comment
“To me though, it appears to add to that bizarre area of rules where the ump. has to be a mind reader.”
I don’t see it as a problem. The umpire doesn’t need to make a decision there immediately nor hand out a punish on-field, nor even does he have to report the player on the spot. That is what post-match review is for.
Its that sort of rule/punishment system that is metered out after the match is concluded. A fine and a naming-and-shaming (which actually means something in Australian sporting culture) to occur post match will make a great deterrent in my humble opinion.
Redb said | February 3rd 2010 @ 10:34am | Report comment
Agree, this will kill it off pretty quick.
Beast-A-Tron said | February 3rd 2010 @ 10:40am | Report comment
It will also provide an additional informational tool to umpires. Known offenders will be under heavier scrutiny, less likely to awarded free kicks and if that weren’t enough, I can see repeat offenders losing favour and thus Brownlow votes from the umpire.
This just works from so many angles.
Michael C said | February 4th 2010 @ 5:23am | Report comment
in the past – ‘known offenders’ were via word of mouth and perhaps some public opinion – - now, ‘known offenders’ will be ‘officially’ recognised!!!
AndyRoo said | February 3rd 2010 @ 9:11am | Report comment
The FFA has a similar rule but the plicing is done by the match reveiw panel rather than the umpire. I would assume that’s how it would work in the AFL too?
Otherwise a really tough burden for an umpire to wear.
Doesn’t eliminate the act altogether but eliminates the obvious fakers that rile people so much i.e. Rivaldo.
I don’t think they have had to penalise anyone yet this season, the one big dive I saw was from Ufuk Talay but it was so bad the ref saw it and gave him a card in the match. The FFA plan is to punsh the people that got away with it on match day.
james said | February 3rd 2010 @ 11:47am | Report comment
“I would assume that’s how it would work in the AFL too?”
Read the article you posted yourself earlier in the thread (rather than just the headline) and you will answer your own question.
AndyRoo said | February 3rd 2010 @ 11:59am | Report comment
Yeh I saw that, …and posted that article later (although it appears above)
RickG said | February 3rd 2010 @ 10:01am | Report comment
That sounds good Andy, I went off a bit early in my post this morning.
I’m a fairweather football fan and am gearing up for the WC, but I’m still seething over that disgraceful dive by that Italian clown – that sort of rubbish remains the reasin why i just can’t get right into football.
I think FIFA did set up a review panel, and didn’t htey fine someone only to overturn it anyway?
AndyRoo said | February 3rd 2010 @ 10:17am | Report comment
To be honest things like the Grosso dive will probably stay unpunished. It’s only the FFA (and Scotland) that seem to punish divers but even if that dive happened in OZ he propbably wouldn’t get punished because their was actual contact, not enough for him to go down but enough that they don’t want to be trying to figure out his internal motivation.
Rivaldo however would get the book thrown at hom.
Michael C said | February 4th 2010 @ 5:29am | Report comment
and how much of the action of the FFA and the Scots is based on ‘local attitudes’ to sporting conduct and relative ‘toughness’,
I recall when Mr Trinidad took his dive that Ross Aloisi I think it was had a bake for him on SEN – but, the reality is that the background Trinidad came from – it was okay and just part of the game.
Beast-A-Tron said | February 3rd 2010 @ 10:25am | Report comment
Prudent action by AFL here to restrict a practice that is most unsporting and anti-competitive.
keeper11 said | February 3rd 2010 @ 10:40am | Report comment
AFL and its media cheersquad again having a dig at ‘tha sockah’ to “prove” how bigger, better and tougher’ it is..
the pervasive stench of fear and insecurity is both infantile and hilarious..
but ..this is a World cup year…..when ‘tha sockah’ will be sharing some of the limelight..
We can’t have that…
Sooo.. the strategy by the established sport/ media interests to redress footballs rising exposure and put the ‘tha sockah’ back ‘ in its place is gearing up for a busy year…
Beast-A-Tron said | February 3rd 2010 @ 10:42am | Report comment
Bitter much?
Towser said | February 3rd 2010 @ 10:57am | Report comment
Regardless of sport it is good to see bodies taking action against cheating.
Luke , Association football history cant be reduced to a one liner:-
“Australian Rules Football was never going to be like soccer – a sport where players, it appears, stage for fun”
Association football was never about staging either. Never saw it, never thought about it, never existed. In English football (on which I was brought up on) prior to the sixties anyway. Cant speak for other nations prior to the sixties,but can say that in modern times their cultural values have overidden The British sporting mentality of open fair play. The combination of money, input of different cultures, & Continental Europeans wresting control away from the British Isles, changed the way players thought about the game.
The bigger the stakes the more chance of cheating.
Doesnt mean its right though & good to see that In Australia both the FFA & AFL Have taken measures to curb it.
Because its not about the sport Adrian, its about cultural acceptance. As we are finding out by our problems in adjusting to Asian football.
Otherwise the FFA ,Like the Scottish FA wouldnt have gone out on a limb from the rest of the football world to bring in the rules this season ,as alluded to by AndyRoo above.
Whilst the AFL doesnt have cultural influences to cope with from outside affecting the sport it does have more money creeping into it.
That alone can change the way sportspeople,view themselves & the means used to win a vital match.
Boris said | February 3rd 2010 @ 10:57am | Report comment
do you honestly think the AFL will ever get to suspending, or probably even fining someone for it? Where exactly do you draw the line? Can’t see it being any more than a hollow threat.
James said | February 3rd 2010 @ 11:55am | Report comment
Again, read the articles before posting ignorant comments. There will be no suspensions – only fines. I personally dont think anyone will be fined – much like no one (or perhaps one or two?) where penalised for the deliberate rushed behind rule bought in last year. That rule worked so well that no one dared to breach it – and it was one of the better rules bought in. I think the same will apply in this case.
Art Sapphire said | February 3rd 2010 @ 11:05am | Report comment
What happens with a fourth offence??
So far its a slap on the wrist for the first offence.
A modest fine for the second.
A slightly less modest fine for the third.
Will it be much of a deterent for instance in a tight finals game??
Beast-A-Tron said | February 3rd 2010 @ 11:13am | Report comment
Its an online forum, get real.
Aka said | February 3rd 2010 @ 12:03pm | Report comment
What is staging/ a dive? Is it highlighting that you’ve been fouled or creating the impression you’ve been fouled when you haven’t?
Dogz R Barkn said | February 3rd 2010 @ 12:42pm | Report comment
I would agree with many soccer fans on this forum that there is actually no need to bring soccer into the discussion: different games, different forms of staging (simulating); different contexts, etc.
I think where the press has mentioned soccer in its OPs is in the context of the AFL having recently sanitised the game to take away a few of the rough edges.
The insinuation has been that this has progressively occurred to appease “soccer mums” (a general tag to refer to parents who do not want their children to play games percieved as “rough”, note the word “perceived” – because it’s more about perception rather than reality).
But apart from that, I don’t really believe these OPs needed to mention soccer at all – it’s got nothing to do with it to be honest.
Art Sapphire said | February 3rd 2010 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
redb – I just can’t be bothered getting into a petty argument over which sport is better than the other. If you like or don’t like a certain sport. Well and good, there is no right or wrong.
I personally think U2, for example, are rubbish. Why people bought their records is beyond me but they did.
The same argument might appy to you and some AFL folk in general when it comes to “soccer”.
They don’t understand why the game is so popular but it is – no point worrying about it.
I, on the other enjoy watching both sports. I am just more passionate about “soccer”
Finally, Lazza does have a bit of a point. What is deliberate out of bounds and what isn’t can be confusing.
I would not myself call it cheating as it is up to the umpires to make an interpretation.
Back in the old days it did not matter the ball was either out on the full or it wasn’t. In the old days it was not uncommom to see players take the ball out of play intentionally to relieve pressure on the backiline.
With the advent of professionalism there was a clampdown on this practise and players have had to become better at disguising intent when taking the ball out of play.
Redb said | February 3rd 2010 @ 1:30pm | Report comment
Art,
re Lazza’s cheating culture remark. All games have aspects where rules are bent thats why wait for it……..we have umpires and referees, but Lazza and his travellng ’soccer’s so good circus’ wants to spin to suit his own agenda.
You and I both know that play around the boundary line and whether a player is deliberately or not putting the ball out of play is not the main feature of the game and certainly should not result in a ‘cheating culture’ remark.
For the record I’ve given soccer a go live at the game and AFL streets it as a spectacle. I dont think I’m alone in Melbourne with that opinion.
Redb
Art Sapphire said | February 3rd 2010 @ 2:02pm | Report comment
redb – i agree I don’t think you are alone in Melbourne with that opinion
Anyway, Bubbledome opens next season which will make the a-League a better spectacle even for the less passionate football fan. Just need the quality to improve a bit more to justify the new surroundings.
Art Sapphire said | February 3rd 2010 @ 1:21pm | Report comment
how did my last post end up in the middle of the thread – it should be down the bottom – the reply button is not working properly
keeper11 said | February 3rd 2010 @ 1:24pm | Report comment
Pointing out the ‘we’ always do it better than ‘them’ mentality that surrounds all AFL announcements and disussions..
Demonising and denigrating ‘other’s ‘ to make ‘us’ feel better and superior …
also aims to hide and surpress our fears and vulnerabilities about ourselves …Mmm..basic Psych 101 really …
So wonder what football scribes ( if they ever could everr be bothered ) could resort to as a means of differentaiting football and AFL ‘culture’ :.
Something about ….elbows to head, all-in brawls passed as innocent ‘melees ‘, aimless miskicks and airswings, 15m fumbles etc….??
Beast-A-Tron said | February 3rd 2010 @ 1:33pm | Report comment
Prepared to use that pop psych on yourself, you know psychoanalyse that massive chip on your shoulder?
Punter said | February 3rd 2010 @ 1:32pm | Report comment
OK I was writing that in reply to Redb comment,
At full speed soccer can never compete for the sheer spectacle of Aussie Rules IMO.
mahony said | February 3rd 2010 @ 3:33pm | Report comment
A billion people disagree with you – me included. I would not cross the road to watch an aussie rules grand final – but would give my left testicle to watch most football finals. At full speed football is one of the most beautiful and skilful things known to mankind. If you don’t get it – thats fine too.
Luke D'Anello said | February 3rd 2010 @ 1:34pm | Report comment
ItsCalledFootball, don’t get on here and claim I have copied an article when I haven’t.
The example you have put up is nothing like what I have written, which proves you can’t read yourself.
I write for a number of different publications and I know the importance of copyright rules. But thanks for your concern.
Redb said | February 3rd 2010 @ 1:44pm | Report comment
Don’t worry Luke,
It’s all part of the massive media conspiracy against soccer in this country. Frootloops the lot of them.
Redb
Sam said | February 3rd 2010 @ 2:03pm | Report comment
Cheating is cheating. It happens in all sports. AFL is no better or worse than anything else. Certainly is not in a position to preach, but then again no worse than anything else out there. I’d like to see them get serious on one of the real reasons AFL games can be a bit of a joke – tanking – it’s basically a form of match fixing. These penalties seem like window dressing compared to that problem. Anyway point is cheating occurs in all codes so enough with the dumb code wars.
Redb said | February 3rd 2010 @ 2:39pm | Report comment
Looks like Geelong’s Stokes might be in a lot of strife.
Beast-A-Tron said | February 3rd 2010 @ 3:00pm | Report comment
“it’s still cheating and if we want to start moralising about it then we have to be consistent.”
Don’t know if that was a reply but anyway, at no point have I been “moralising”; merely commenting & comparing on the rate of incidence.
Lazza said | February 3rd 2010 @ 3:02pm | Report comment
The reply button is obviously still not working but my point was in regard to AFL players putting the ball out of play deliberately.
Beast-A-Tron, I wasn’t accusing you of using diving as an excuse to bash soccer but to deny that many do is just nonsense.
Beast-A-Tron said | February 3rd 2010 @ 3:09pm | Report comment
Of course. Those partisan people are called “zealots” and you ignore them. They exist in every sport and no matter how much common sense and logic you throw at them, they persist in their idiocy.
You’ll get a lot more inner peace once you realise you don’t need to defend the honour of your sport every time its slandered. Some are worth replying, others… just simply aren’t.
The trick, or test, to see whether or not the argument is of worth is to ask yourself ‘did they pass year 12 english?’…!
Tifosi said | February 3rd 2010 @ 3:20pm | Report comment
Al Bundy once said : Its only cheating if you get caught!!
In basketball, they call it flopping and it occurs also.
In all honesty its no surprise that staging is occurring in AFL , remember its a lot harder to determine if someone is faking a stage if hands are in the back and someone falls.
AFL players have what we call in italian become “furbo”. In case you did not know, it means crafty, clever, smart, sharp, astute and sly.
MV Dave said | February 3rd 2010 @ 3:29pm | Report comment
” The AFL takes a hard line to prove its not soft like Soccer” is a headline out of The Age this morning from one of the AFL media dinosaurs. Wonder how many pro games of Sokkah he or any of the other AFL media dim wits have played so they can actually make a judgement.
The point has been made above but the AFL media/organisation (plenty of players/officials have said ‘we dont want to be like Sokkah’) have got to joking trying to play down the cheating in their sport by comparing it to another sport. The cheating in AFL is there for all to see and they have now decided to act. End of story…nothing to do with Sokkah.
B.C. said | February 3rd 2010 @ 9:51pm | Report comment
Why is it that only Soccer supporters refer to their game as “Sokkah” and often demand that others refer to their game as “football”? I’m confused.
Simmo said | February 3rd 2010 @ 3:38pm | Report comment
“The EPL has become the biggest and most popular sports league in the world since the emergence of the big 4. No one wants a socialist collective in soccer where every team gets success handed to them. Where’s the satisfaction in that?”
We shouldn’t try and infer that the emergence of the Big 4 has actually *caused* the EPL’s popularity to boom. They were simply the clubs who have benefited the most from the rising tide. I can also think of a lot of fans who are slowly becoming turned off by the tedium of watching the same clubs win all the silverware year after year. I am one of them.
Tifosi said | February 3rd 2010 @ 3:41pm | Report comment
Wow the roar is totally messed up. Somehow my comment is in the middle of the page !!
Not to site administrators, something is way wrong!! I also get this timed out notice!!
Zac Zavos said | February 9th 2010 @ 10:38am | Report comment
Is this still an issue Tifosi?
Thanks
Zac
The Roar
MV Dave said | February 3rd 2010 @ 3:41pm | Report comment
” The AFL takes a hard line to prove its not soft like Soccer” is a headline out of The Age this morning from one of the AFL media dinosaurs. Wonder how many pro games of Sokkah he or any of the other AFL media dim wits have played so they can actually make a judgement.
The point has been made above but the AFL media/organisation (plenty of players/officials have said ‘we dont want to be like Sokkah’) have got to joking trying to play down the cheating in their sport by comparing it to another sport. The cheating in AFL is there for all to see and they have now decided to act. End of story…nothing to do with Sokkah.
Lazza said | February 3rd 2010 @ 3:46pm | Report comment
No, you just have to tank your way to the best draft picks while the top teams are denied the best talent. If you’re incredibly bad then you’ll get priority picks as well. Failure is rewarded like any good socialist system and success is handed to you.
With all those incentives to cheat then it’s no surprise that tanking is rife in the game even if the AFL doesn’t want to admit it.
Beast-A-Tron said | February 3rd 2010 @ 4:30pm | Report comment
You are deluded into thinking the only good players come from the Top 10 draft picks.
Once again, success isn’t handed out you have to play well in order to succeed. Don’t know how many times it needs to be said, but it will be repeated until you comprehend it.
You have to win as a team and you have to develop your gun players. But being a fan of a sport where champion players are typically bought and assembled by playboy billionaires, I can see how this went over your head.
If your arguement made any sense, Richmond & Melbourne would be dominant powerhouses. They’re not. Heck even Collingwood has had some troubled years, even a wooden spoon and yet still no premiership forthcoming. In short, your argument that the system is not competitive has been smashed.
The salary cap discourages rich teams from purchasing their premiership (i.e. “success is handed to you” as you said) with their chequebook. This system encourages the development of sports science and other aspects that will give your team a comparative advantage, as you simply cannot rely on buying your way to victory.
Funny thing about tanking is, these past few years 3-4, teams get labeled as tanking and then of course they breach the max wins and everyone shuts up. Invariably when multiple teams are consistently accused each year, one will eventually fail to post the wins as predicted. So far zero evidence presented of teams deliberately conspiring to lose a match, so put up or shut up.
Losing on purpose does not create a winning culture, Melbourne is all too familiar with this.
Beast-A-Tron said | February 3rd 2010 @ 4:35pm | Report comment
Additionally, by your own logic I can argue that poor quality teams are rewarded in soccer, because as you so freely admit the disparity between good and bad teams are often not translated into the final result. The low scoring system ensures that even bad teams, who put on a “uninspiring” performance, are a chance of knocking off the superior team. Sounds a lot like failure is being rewarded here…
bever fever said | February 3rd 2010 @ 5:16pm | Report comment
There is a reason why people use the phrase “namby pamby half forward flanker” it rhymes with w a n k e r.
Milne, Didak et all must be named and shamed, personally i think the staging is a by-product of soccer in this country.
On the flip side you do see some good goals scored soccer style during the year.
bever fever said | February 3rd 2010 @ 5:50pm | Report comment
” That would never happen but it occurs in Soccer all the time”,
Lazza, if upsets occur all the time then why are they called upsets.
You really have been shown up time and time again for not thinking about what you say or reading what others write.
keeper11 said | February 3rd 2010 @ 9:18pm | Report comment
Now that is a silly bore”
“I’d prefer a socialist league over a socialist game structure”
Mmmm….seems just a few others have a different view..
the relative status of the EPL is reflected in the fact that just one of its high profile ‘big 4′ Liverpool have an estimated 50million supporters just in in asia…
..contrast…i may have spotted some backpackers with Bombers singlet in Bali.. thats about it..
..and imposing a socialist system ibn football means scrapping the unrivalled drama and virtual ‘life and death’ of promotion/ relegation….( remember Leeds and Newcastle United ?? )
a concept unique to football and adds to its global success…
else…what do you have instead in your socialist code?.. oh ..the ‘wooden spoon’.
How….quaint.
..and utterly meaningless.
Beast-A-Tron said | February 3rd 2010 @ 10:15pm | Report comment
“Mmmm….seems just a few others have a different view..”
Good for them, they can enjoy their Big Macs and Nike runners.
“..and imposing a socialist system ibn football means scrapping the unrivalled drama and virtual ‘life and death’ of promotion/ relegation….( remember Leeds and Newcastle United ?? )”
What drama…? You mean the drama of guessing which of the Big Four will win the league (year in year out)??
Or perhaps the drama of seeing the mediocre bottom sides fighting for… a chance to be at the bottom next year!
Moonface said | February 3rd 2010 @ 10:01pm | Report comment
If the AFL players didn’t cheat, then why are they bringing in the new rules and fines – so they can qualify for a FIFA Fair Play award?
Its up to the umpires to make the calls, which is what they do now so nothing will cange and like the three strikes drug policy, no one will get caught or publically get named and shamed.
Matthew Stephen said | February 6th 2010 @ 9:03am | Report comment
For a player to be fined does it have to called a dive on the field by the umpire or not. For instance can a player lets say Matthew Llyod be given a freekick for a push and it later to be found to be a dive can he still be fined or warned?
Redb said | February 3rd 2010 @ 11:52am | Report comment
Theres an airport in a capital city near you.
Beast-A-Tron said | February 3rd 2010 @ 12:03pm | Report comment
“In AFL”
A costly mistake with seconds left will still leave the same result. It just means your team didn’t play hard enough in the rest of the allocated playing time, which is the difference between the two sports. In the Australian football, a loss can only mean the team has failed whereas in soccer a loss can often be attributed to an individual.
In soccer your team can play an absolute dominant blinder of a game, only to have it ruined by poor officiating, a single mistake from an individual (which in my mind, undermines the team aspect of sport) or even worse an incident of cheating . Like I’ve argued previously, this can happen in other sports, but the low scoring nature of soccer means that one individual can undermine an entire team effort.
“In ‘Soccer’ one goal can decide a game, a championship or even a World Cup.”
I take issue with this structural facet, with the likes of Maradonna and T.Henry proving my point.
Dogz R Barkn said | February 3rd 2010 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
It’s an interesting observation – players trying to get the ball out without getting pinged for deliberately putting it out.
There are instances when it’s clear cut and obvious to all and sundry (that a player has deliberately gone for the safety of the line), and there are other instances where it’s a bit grey, e.g. a defender pumping the ball 60 metres down the ground, hugging the boundary, and hoping for a leg break.
Given that players only have a split second to make a decision, and often under severe physical duress, to follow through with the objective of getting the ball out while not appearing to put it out deliberately is quite difficult.
In fact, I’d reckon it’s as difficult as spotting up a target at 50 to 60 metres.
One good way to get it out intentionally without getting pinged is to miss a tagged team mate by half a metre so that it goes over the line.
But to achieve that, is just as hard as hitting your mark, especially with a split second of time in decision making under physical duress.
Furthermore, the end result is a neutal throw in, where the ball is contested anew, and that is quite a different outcome to being handed a sure goal on a platter, one which will most probably determine the outcome of a game.
But it’s an interesting perspective nevertheless.
Redb said | February 3rd 2010 @ 12:18pm | Report comment
Clearly the issues sits pretty uncomfortably for the soccer folk still. Whole countries who play your sport use cheating as a normal part of life in soccer.
Look at the poster child – Thierry Henry. Biggest cheat in recent memory in world sport.
Redb
Beast-A-Tron said | February 3rd 2010 @ 1:39pm | Report comment
“All professiobnal sports have ‘cheating’ or bending the rules to gain an advantage. The more competitive and cutthroat the sport is the more incidents”
You want your cake and to eat it too. On the one hand you don’t want to admit cheating is rife in soccer, yet on the other you justify it as sign that the sport is highly competitive.
We are know that all sports have cheating in one form or another. It is the structure of the game that determines what effect on the result a potential cheat can have and thus what level of incentive there is to cheat.
I find it rather silly you would argue one sport is more competitive than another on the basis of cheating. It is not like other sports have championships with teams wanting to lose. The glory of victory is present in every sport.
Lazza said | February 3rd 2010 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
That rarely happens in a game of Aussie Rules Beast-A-Tron. More likely is that the game is all over way before the final siren because one team has a huge lead. How many games go write down to wire? Not many but they are the games that I and most fans enjoy the most.
‘Soccers’ low scoring system ensures that all games, even if uninspiring, are at least a CONTEST. It also gives underdog teams a chance to upset the big boys. When the Adelaide Crows play a SANFL (i.e.2nd Division) side in a pre season warm up game, they are usually 10-20 goals up by half-time? That’s why the AFL needs a draft, priority picks and an equalisation program otherwise we would all be bored silly.
Redb said | February 3rd 2010 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
having put up with 55,000 Crows fans carrying on like port chops each time theye kicked a goal against Essendon in the final last year, even though they were 80 points up – that does not alwys hold true. Neutrals yes.
For many purists, people who actuully like our game, they saw great beauty in Geelong’s demolition of Port Adelaide in the GF 2007 – great attacking and entertaining football.
At full speed soccer can never compete for the sheer spectacle of Aussie Rules. A close scoreline is often the only highlight for a soccer fan IMO
Redb
Beast-A-Tron said | February 3rd 2010 @ 1:15pm | Report comment
“That rarely happens in a game of Aussie Rules Beast-A-Tron. More likely is that the game is all over way before the final siren because one team has a huge lead.”
That simply isn’t true. With 8 games per round, often quite a few of them per round will be close (down to the last quarter, fighting for the lead). I recall enjoying an excellent 1 point win over the Bulldogs in Rd22 (?) at Telstra, it was a marvelous game. But I can understand how you’ve incorrectly arrived to this assumption, you probably haven’t watched many games.
“‘Soccers’ low scoring system ensures that all games, even if uninspiring, are at least a CONTEST”
Hmmm ironic that I subscribe to this socialist notion for structuring the actual league (salary caps, priority draft picks etc), but on game day I think it should be down to the skill of the team, not due to the structure of the sport played.
“It also gives underdog teams a chance to upset the big boys. ”
Make no mistake, in Australian football underdogs can & DO win games. The last two Grand Finals have been won by the underdog (Hawthorn ‘08, Geelong ‘09). Your point is ignorant at best, disingenuous at worst.
“That’s why the AFL needs a draft, priority picks and an equalisation program otherwise we would all be bored silly”
As opposed to the Big Four dominating the EPL? Now that is a silly bore.
Art Sapphire said | February 3rd 2010 @ 12:32pm | Report comment
redb – you should not tar everybody with the same brush.
Remember, Aussie Rules is not played many different countries and cultures.
In Australia cheating is frowned upon and the FFA has enacted appropriate punishment. The fact that the AFL has had to act on this issue just highlights that increasing professionalism has seen an increase of cheating in AFL.
Sporting bodies want to be seen as reflective of Australian sporting “values”.
Which explains the AFL’s announcement today.
Punter said | February 3rd 2010 @ 12:33pm | Report comment
‘Biggest cheat in recent memory in world sport.’
Only because the sport (ffotball) had the biggest profile, add to the fact the the game was an int’l event & there was a big prize at the end..
There was a much bigger cheat in the EPL a week later, but his team was already down 5-0 when he cheated. The act of chearting was worse but the situation was not as big.
Punter said | February 3rd 2010 @ 12:36pm | Report comment
The sheer emotion of a AFL game will never compete with the sheer emotion of a football game IMO.
Simmo said | February 3rd 2010 @ 3:34pm | Report comment
utterly wrong. Too one-eyed by half Redb
Redb said | February 3rd 2010 @ 12:40pm | Report comment
sauce for the goose Art. Who ever said cyber space was fair
Redb said | February 3rd 2010 @ 12:43pm | Report comment
Maybe your advice would be useful to Lazza and others who decided to wade in. Just a thought. AFL is cheating culture according to Lazza!
Dogz R Barkn said | February 3rd 2010 @ 12:45pm | Report comment
Ultmately, the emotion of any contest is dependent on the emotion fans have invested in one or another of those involved in the contest.
If a game is full of theatre goers (as spectators), the emotion is generally far less.
I’m not sure if one or another game has a mortgage on emotion.
Indeed, many big games (right across the sporting spectrum), often have far less emotion than can be found at a tiny rund down ground chock block full of true believers – and that’s because of the threatre goers and chardonnay set.
Beast-A-Tron said | February 3rd 2010 @ 1:17pm | Report comment
Well credit to you that you realise what you just said is an opinion (“IMO”).
Lazza said | February 3rd 2010 @ 12:48pm | Report comment
I’m your worst nightmare Redb. A ‘Soccer’ fan who also follows AFL (35 years) and knows too much about the game.
Pretending to ‘not’ put the ball out of play deliberately is cheating and trying to con the umpire. Like any good Sth American ‘Soccer’ player this is regarded as ’smart’ play in AFL circles if you can ‘disguise’ it properly and not get caught.
Redb said | February 3rd 2010 @ 12:53pm | Report comment
Gee you are really are deluded
LOL
Moonface said | February 3rd 2010 @ 10:09pm | Report comment
Exactly Lazza – happens in all sports, even AFL where there are always plenty of different ways to con the umpires – just ask the opposing team’s fans.
Lazza said | February 3rd 2010 @ 1:09pm | Report comment
Name calling usually means you’ve lost the argument.
Redb said | February 3rd 2010 @ 1:15pm | Report comment
Self aggrandisement a much surer sign
Punter said | February 3rd 2010 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
Who me or RedB?
Beast-A-Tron said | February 3rd 2010 @ 1:30pm | Report comment
Punter.
Lazza said | February 3rd 2010 @ 1:52pm | Report comment
Beast-A-Tron, try reading my posts properly. I didn’t say there was no cheating in ‘Soccer’ just that it exists in all sports. Compared to the drug cheats that plague the Olympics, Cycling and other sports then I don’t think ’simulation’ is the worst form of cheating in sport today. It usually happens on the spur of the moment and is not planned like the recent ‘Bloodgate’ cheating scandal in Rugby or deliberate ball tampering like cricket.
When the AFL was smaller, State based and semi-pro you didn’t get these sorts of faking incidents. When it became professional, more competitive and cutthroat then you started to see players try and gain any advantage they can.
Sam said | February 3rd 2010 @ 1:55pm | Report comment
Please don’t say there is any difference between an appeal in cricket when a player knows their opponent should not be out (the number of cases of players claiming catches when they shouldn’t is shocking) and a soccer player diving when there isn’t contact. It’s exactly the same thing! It’s cheating and trying to deceive the umpire/referee. I see no difference between the two.
Beast-A-Tron said | February 3rd 2010 @ 2:02pm | Report comment
“Beast-A-Tron, try reading my posts properly. I didn’t say there was no cheating in ‘Soccer’…”
You need to read my posts properly, that wasn’t my contention.
Beast-A-Tron said | February 3rd 2010 @ 2:06pm | Report comment
How obvious someone is ‘out’ or ‘not out’ can be subjective, hence why its up to the umpire to adjudicate.
Appealing has been used as a psychological weapon and delaying tactic, but I don’t think its as rife as staging in soccer.
The value of a single wicket is more diluted (and therefore the incentive is less) than the value of a single goal in soccer.
Simple logic.
Lazza said | February 3rd 2010 @ 2:07pm | Report comment
But critics of ‘Soccer’ need an excuse to bash the sport so they pretend that cheating only occurs in ‘Soccer’ and that ’simulation’ is the second worst human rights violation after genocide.
I saw an aging Rugby comentator shaking his head in disgust at the play acting that goes on in ‘Soccer’. Then we saw the ‘Bloodgate’ scandal where they deliberately brought a bag af blood onto the field to fake an injury. When these things happen in their sport then they only blame the individuals concerned, as they should, but not the entire sport. That’s the difference with ‘Soccer’. Anything that happens in the 200 countries that play the sport is an excuse to bash the whole sport.
Beast-A-Tron said | February 3rd 2010 @ 2:16pm | Report comment
“But critics of ‘Soccer’ need an excuse to bash the sport so they pretend that cheating only occurs in ‘Soccer’…”
Only in your fantasy world, does this straw man make sense.
I’ve made moderate criticisms, without emotion and without loaded language. See if you can do the same.
Lazza said | February 3rd 2010 @ 2:58pm | Report comment
It’s still cheating and if we want to start moralising about it then we have to be consistent. It’s interesting because it’s regarded as ’smart’ play to do that which is how some nations justify diving in soccer. All’s fair in love, war and professional sport.
Beast-A-Tron said | February 3rd 2010 @ 3:02pm | Report comment
Damn the reply system is whacked out they keep jumping everywhere.
Michael C said | February 4th 2010 @ 9:08am | Report comment
It’s only cheating when the laws are being broken on the ’sly’,
before then, it’s not within the ’spirit’ of the game,
but, we know all games have law related ‘grey areas’, and loopholes – it’s NOT cheating to work in that environment, but, it MAY be poor sportsmanship.
The AFL has now defined this activity as cheating becuase it’s covered in the laws.
Lazza said | February 3rd 2010 @ 3:09pm | Report comment
You are talking about the two best teams in the league and one is an ‘underdog’. How about an SANFL or a VFL side upseting an AFL side? That would never happen but it occurs in Soccer all the time and sports fans around the world love it.
“As opposed to the Big Four dominating the EPL? Now that is a silly bore”
The EPL has become the biggest and most popular sports league in the world since the emergence of the big 4. No one wants a socialist collective in soccer where every team gets success handed to them. Where’s the satisfaction in that?
Beast-A-Tron said | February 3rd 2010 @ 3:26pm | Report comment
“You are talking about the two best teams in the league and one is an ‘underdog’.”
So how does that invalidate the point? I can give you examples of two sh!thouse teams and the underdog winning. But frankly I don’t think the local D Grade footy is of interest to the The Roar.
“That would never happen…”
Because AFL teams don’t play state league teams. I have no problem in believing the likes of Melbourne or Freo going down to a VFL or SANFL team.
“…but it occurs in Soccer all the time…”
If it is so frequent how can it be considered a massive upset? You yourself admit that toppling the better side is comparatively easier. So by that logic I argue that ‘upsets’ are comparatively diluted in soccer.
“No one wants a socialist collective in soccer where every team gets success handed to them.”
Success isn’t handed, it has to be earnt by good performance on game day. The starting pieces (league structure) are evenly distributed (as can be), what you do with the pieces is what determines a winner (or a loser). Fremantle for example has had numerous comparative advantages handed to them by the AFL, yet they still suck hard.
I’d prefer a socialist league over a socialist game structure.
MV Dave said | February 4th 2010 @ 5:45am | Report comment
The fact is Sokkah was drawn into this debate by the wholier than thou AFL/AFL media…’we dont want to be seen as a game where cheating occurs such as in that soft game Sokkah’. Well guess what cheating is rife throughout AFL as players seek to gain advantage by diving (AFL speak says staging), deliberately putting the ball out etc. Why was Sokkah brought into this AFL issue? l for one certainly wouldn’t be bothered replying to this AFL issue if it hadnt seen it necessary to denigrate Sokkah in the process.