By mitzter
February 8th 2010 @ 6:52am
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Stop cheating players in rugby by suspending offenders
I am unaware if a system such as this has been discussed on The Roar but I propose a system of suspension for cheating players rather than simply penalising them for repeat infringements.
Firstly, refereeing rugby is hard. There are so many things going on, and so quickly, that a referee simply can’t observe everything.
Unfortunately because of this, it’s a primordial soup for cheating. Players are encouraged to find the line of the referee and play a little past that. Of course players would try to do this, and typically chances are you won’t get caught.
Now, I’ve seen some bad refereeing, as everyone has, even at the international level. Some referees simply don’t seem to understand the flow of the game or understand scrums, or they entirely miss offsides.
But I don’t blame referees entirely for this, given the reasons previously stated.
I propose a system of suspension for cheating players. Obviously, it would need a trial and something like Super 14/15 would be ideal (international standard players in a league format).
The system is as follows:
a. games to be video reviewed afterwards by another referee than the one who reffed the match
b. at a ruck or other formation, the assessor is looking for the first infringement to take place (target on the tackler rolling away first, then the ball released, then arriving players staying on their feet)
c. ignore the infringement if the refereeing had spotted it and awarded a penalty, then:
d. 1 point is issued for each infringement, and maybe 3 in the red zone; if a player reaches 10 points for a game they are suspended for one match (I would probably grace them with a warning when this system is first introduced)
e. The assessor publicly expresses what is wrong with a player’s practice so that everyone can learn what is required.
This is just a thought, as maybe we can clean up the breakdown and scrums with a system like this. I would love to hear what you think.
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(44)
ohtani's jacket said | February 8th 2010 @ 7:21am | Report comment
Not in favour for the simple reason that I’m sick of things being trialled.
mitzter said | February 8th 2010 @ 7:29am | Report comment
Now now OJ that’s a very cynical view!
At least trial wouldn’t be watered down like the ELVs
Daniel J said | February 8th 2010 @ 12:14pm | Report comment
OJ loves trials, at least the last one in the 90’s boooya
ohtani's jacket said | February 8th 2010 @ 5:31pm | Report comment
Yeah, but they’d trial it for a year and then decide they need to trial something else… until finally they decide to trial no trials for a trial period.
Daniel J said | February 8th 2010 @ 7:29pm | Report comment
so they would do that for a trial?
Ora said | February 8th 2010 @ 7:44am | Report comment
That is ludicrous, in every sport in the world the boundaries are pushed to the limit, and it is a sign of a good player and a good team if they can get away with pushing those limits.
Maybe we should start suspending inept officials after all it is their job to stamp cheating out isn’t it.
mitzter said | February 8th 2010 @ 7:59am | Report comment
Ora
Inept officials are suspended, not as much as i would like but they are and every ruck is analysed already to determine their accuracy.
But players who continually push the limits are one of the reasons rugby can sometimes be unwatchable. What’s a ref to do when both teams want to play past the limits – keep blowing penalties and we have yet another boring @rse penalty shootout game
Ora said | February 8th 2010 @ 2:57pm | Report comment
When was the last time a ref was suspended apart from that plonker who officiated in the Hurricanes and Bulls match.
Refs are making disastrous calls every day, the players are only doing what the ref is allowing them to do so its about time the IRB started sorting out the officials
Bay35Pablo said | February 8th 2010 @ 7:47am | Report comment
OJ & katzilla, I figured you’d say that. Can’t have Richie McCaw getting caught after avoiding the first ref can we ….
ohtani's jacket said | February 8th 2010 @ 5:34pm | Report comment
Ha, the assessor would quickly discover that Richie McCaw never infringes… he’s just that quick.
katzilla said | February 9th 2010 @ 3:38am | Report comment
Richie McCaw would be up in the Video room smooth talkin the video ref and the video ref would find nothing wrong ever.
If that fails Richie will put his hands all over the tape not allowing it to come out of the video machine thereby stopping the refs from using said tape.
All above board of course.
Mr Mac said | February 8th 2010 @ 8:18am | Report comment
Has some merit
Actually I would suggest 2 points & 3 in the red zone but -1 if already penalised.
soapit said | February 8th 2010 @ 11:59am | Report comment
i’d prefer to have a dedicated ref up in the stands just watching the offside (on a screen maybe) and free up the on field ref. you could hook them up easily. on field ref and touchies are to busy to be watching this line every second and it only take a second to sneak forward.
gotta start keeping them honest. might not need to change any rules if we strictly enforce the ones we have
ExpatSin said | February 8th 2010 @ 3:26pm | Report comment
Lets face facts boys. Changing legislation in the real world does not stop infringements from be perpetrated, so why should it here. I agree with soapit, we need to enforce the existing rules. That leads to Ora’s comment. We need consistent interpretation of the law to promote acceptable behavior by the players. One final point and I agree with OJ, let’s let some other rugby playing league trial new laws or interpretations of the same ones in place now. I for one am sick of that also. That said, bring on the Super 14.
Damo said | February 8th 2010 @ 3:41pm | Report comment
I’m with you Bay. Some people like the system just the way it is thanks. They reckon rugby’s perfect while the Bledisloe is on the right side of the Tasman. Two out of three Auckland Bledisloe games (2007 and 2009) ruined by referees missing way too much. Even my Kiwi mates reckon the team from New Zealand were very ‘fortunate’ in 2007 at least.
Ora, I think you are missing the point. Did not the article point to the sheer impossibility of a referee catching every (or even the first) infringement at any point in a match. The issue is that we have sides cynically exploiting the fact that the man with whistle has only two eyes and one point of view at any one time.
You guys might be rapt about that. Others like to see the game made into more of a skill contest than a cheat contest. Looking forward to an original response regarding the improvement of the great game of rugby.
mattamkII said | February 8th 2010 @ 3:48pm | Report comment
The big issue is that they cant really make big changes like that unless it can flow through to club footy. And well, this cant be used at anything other than top level.
Sure the TMO is used now and doesn’t reach grass roots …but that’s a no brainer.
Ora said | February 8th 2010 @ 3:51pm | Report comment
Damo I am not missing the point reality is like you say the ref can’t see it all so the players well the good players will exploit this where they can, thats what a smart player does.
What i am hearing here is sookie baba rubbish that people like yourself are saying we only won the bledisloe in 07 an 09 because we cheated and got away with it.
Funny that because I bet your one of the first people to tell All Black fans to get over the forward pass in the 07 quarter final, or even yet I’d say your one of the types who say that we should’ve been good enough to win even with the forward pass right????
So before making such lewd statements have a think about what you and Bay are saying because the same could be said in relation to Australias pathetic performances of late especiallty against the All Blacks.
Maybe the Wallabies should take up a few sessions with haddin on how to cheat and get away with it
Hammer said | February 8th 2010 @ 4:06pm | Report comment
Why not just do what was common in the schoolyard – give the Wallabies a 10.5 point start …
Jameswm said | February 8th 2010 @ 4:10pm | Report comment
Great idea.
Who has a spare ABs match on tape, to go back and tally up McCaw’s points?
Don’t forget the bit about releasing the tackled player before you get to your feet and play the ball – his single biggest push of the rules. He made an art form out of that one (not letting the tackled player play the ball) and the refs seldom spotted it.
The general NZ one is having blockers in the pillar position in front of an attacking ruck, blocking defenders. The defenders would push the gridiron style blockers out of the way and sometimes get penalised!
We Aussies never break any of the laws, of course.
Ora said | February 8th 2010 @ 4:33pm | Report comment
No Aussies never break the rules ever they should be called the Saints….
How absolutely ridiculous this debate is.
If they concentrated on playing the match as much as they do about bitc@ing they might start winning a few more matches.
Funny thing how it’s never their fault that they lose it’s always the ref, someone cheating, the planets weren’t aligned get a grip and start playing rugby and quit the rubbish excuses.
katzilla said | February 9th 2010 @ 3:42am | Report comment
‘Who has a spare ABs match on tape, to go back and tally up McCaw’s points? ‘
Every Flanker in the world worth his salt has that video tape
Damo said | February 8th 2010 @ 5:04pm | Report comment
Sorry Ora, too old to play now. That’s again beside the point. I’ve got the medical records to prove it. The point is not forward passes either by the way. Forward passes are rarely a deliberate ‘cheat’.
Ora, still looking forward to an original response from you outside of the ‘bitching’ and ‘excuses’ tag. Probably should not have brought up those Bledisloe matches. It was too hard for you to resist the free kick. For the ten thousandth time this is not about who should have won a game. It’s about how the game is won. I thought we were lucky with scrum penalties in the 2003 WC final. That was a game England deserved to win and nearly didn’t. We lost the 2000 Sydney Bledisloe but it’s still the best game of rugby I have ever seen.
.
It’s about seeing a decent game of rugby, not a game of cheating, whoever is doing it.
And if you get your way and the unsighted cheats carry on and if we win Bledisloe and the refs miss our cheating and you start looking for better scrutiny of cynical play, I promise I won’t accuse you of ‘bitching’. No really I won’t .
Please resist your traditional urge to kick an Aussie just because we happened to lose our last couple of games to the team from New Zealand. (Cue chest beating)
Ora said | February 9th 2010 @ 6:05am | Report comment
Damo your speil is nothibng but senseless dribble, you continue to insinuate that the All Blacks are only winning because they are cheating, you continue to try and say that rugby is all about cheating when it is not. It is you who brought up the Bledisloe so don’t try and turn this on me having a go at Australia when in fact it waas you champ who had a cheap kick at the All Blacks!!
Smart players and smart teams play within the boundariesand push those boundaries that the IRB officials set, if Australian teams and others are too stupid to embrace this they really should start thinking about selecting players who will.
Players will only do what the ref is allows them to do.
So Damo you may want to come up with something original yourself because at6 the moment your just carrying on down that same old road that the All Blacks are cheats thats why we never win s@it and it really is getting quite boring.
Like I have said on previous occasions, look at the IRB first and get them to sort their officials out, give the touchies some more power to intervene in a match. Going to a video analyst after a game has been played and handing out naughty points is absolutely ludicrous and is one of the stupidest ideas I have heard of. Cheating needs to be nipped in the butt when it occurs and that is why these officials get paid to judicate in a game.
Campbell Watts said | February 9th 2010 @ 6:22pm | Report comment
God Damo!
2000 Bledisloes? 2003 WC? 2007 Bledisloes?
Get with the times and find a new arguement – you sound like an old scratched record!
Build a bridge and get over it son
ohtani's jacket said | February 8th 2010 @ 5:36pm | Report comment
Actually, they should trial this. It would be hilarious if more Australians were suspended than New Zealanders.
mitzter said | February 8th 2010 @ 7:24pm | Report comment
OK OK
This was not intended as an aussie/kiwi rivalry thing. The aim here is the improvement of the game!
Good refereeing is still needed but this should highlight to players those aspects of their game that is questionable.
@mattamkll
I don’t think this does need to go down to club level. The intention is to clean up the top level (that everybody sees) to hopefully make the game more watchable and even filter down to the lower levels that this is the standard you are expected to play at. Obviously, internationals would be good but they couldn’t be applied across the board, but tournaments (RWC, 3N, 6N) could apply it. I’ve just suggested something like super 14 in order to trial it.
Ora said | February 8th 2010 @ 8:04pm | Report comment
Mitzter,
An article like this waas always going to lead to the Aussie bandits accussing Richie of being a cheat and to be honest it seems it was the intended undertone of your article. I personally believe that it would be ludicrous to start pouring over tapes and awarding pts to players not playing to the book. I think you’ll find most players would accrue some points. What really should be happening is giving touchies more of an input and making sure the match ref is on the ball. As is with society people will stretch the rules when they know that they can not be seen it is human nature.
The suggestion I believe will further ruin rugby as teams will be too scared to do anything for fear of big brother.
Ora said | February 8th 2010 @ 8:05pm | Report comment
It’s all about interpretation and at the moment the rules are very subjective there is no defined interpretation and the fault lies squarely at the feet of the IRB and the administration who implements the laws.
mattamkII said | February 8th 2010 @ 10:44pm | Report comment
Mizter..I know..but my point is the IRB doesnt like putting in new laws that cant be used at all levels. Especially something as massive as this.
If you want something like this, simply formalize the yellow card process. Pinged 3 times = off..
but even that would be hard for refs to keep track of in club land and would see the end of quick taps while the ref writes numbers in him book.
katzilla said | February 9th 2010 @ 3:32am | Report comment
They don’t need to do this, George Smith Just retired.
There aren’t any cheaters left in the game
Photon said | February 9th 2010 @ 5:07am | Report comment
I hate it when people refer to opposition players as a cheats, just because they push the rules to the limit doesn’t make you a cheat. The truth is 50 50 calls rarely, if ever decide the course of a game, if you take your chances and put the points on the board you generally win, which is more the better sides usually get the rub of the green too, caus if you’re controlling a game you’re more likely to be in better positions(in the opposition half) when a bad call goes your way. This has been my personal experience on the field as well as a supporter of the boks free state or any other rugby side. When my side loses I can usualy recollect 2 or 3 occasions when we should have scored but didn’t, or let the opposition score when they shouldn’t have. Destiny gentleman, in life and on a sports field is generally a matter of choice and not chance, that’s why sports the ideal place to teach your kids that things aren’t always fair but if you prepare and plan properly, you’ll always be in a position to make the most of the chances that come your way. Anyway, didn’t mean to waffle
allblackfan said | February 9th 2010 @ 6:17am | Report comment
For a start, they should bring back rucking.
Rucking (as far as I understand it) was originally devised by players to punish other players for infringing at the breakdown.
If you’re a persistent infringer at the breakdown, there’s nothing like a few dozen sprigs on your back to convince you to stop doing that!! And you don’t need a ref (except to monitor the whole safety thing).
mitzter said | February 9th 2010 @ 7:09am | Report comment
@photon
Look I don’t refer the opposition players as cheats – I think both teams do it. It happens so often in a game that THAT is the reason for so many of the 50-50 calls in a game (both teams were cheating and both were trying to push the line).
I want more accountabliity for players who continually play outside the laws as it is WRECKING the game as a spectacle; with this sort of system it may make players think twice before intentionally cheating.
@mattamkll
I know what your talking about and the idea that it can be the same at all levels is ludicrous and I don’t know why the irb can’t accept that. I don’t play a game with a TMO and assistant referees on the sidelines, we have someone from each team holding a jersey for a touchie. I don’t see why it needs irb approval, why can’t SANZAR trial things.
Ora said | February 9th 2010 @ 10:02am | Report comment
Because it is ridiculous and somewhat nanny stateish. Stuff the naughty points if the ref thinks someone is cheating he should deal with it then and there. I don’t give two hoots that he can’t see everything thats what he has assistants for. Rugby does not need big brother, common sense needs to prevail and naughty points hours maybe days after a game has concluded is not the way
Grandpabhaile said | February 9th 2010 @ 10:29am | Report comment
Don’t agree with that at all – your spiel is nothing but a gallimaufry of recycled opinions and cheap wind.
You insulate the All Blacks from never cheating because they are winning, but you say that rugby is all about winning when it is not. The Bledisloe is relevant to the point in hand and what the topic is about and the All Blacks are part of that last time I looked!!
Professionals look to play and push the the boundaries whenever they can and step outside the boundary and dance around a line making faces at the ref while he’s not looking – that’s what McCaw is all about. And yet you say that Australian teams and others are too stupid to embrace this and they really should start thinking about selecting players who will. Players do what the ref is allows them to do and more whenever they can get away with it and McCaw does. The All Blacks are good at cheating the laws and thats why they sometimes win – live with it.
Going to a video analyst after a game has been played and handing out naughty points to players is a good way to pinpoint players behaviour in a game – they do it already. Just doesn’t need to have any effect on the outcome, it would serve as useful teaching material for refs and some All Black fans though.
ohtani's jacket said | February 9th 2010 @ 10:39am | Report comment
Some serious feedback then:
Firstly, I think you have to acknowledge that not all infringing is cheating just like not all contact in basketball is a deliberate foul. You also have to acknowledge that sometimes teams are forced to infringe by the opposition and that a penalty in that case is a forced turnover and not cheating.
Secondly, I think people have to abandon this idea that rugby has ever been a game where sides constantly attacked each other with running rugby. Rugby has always been about moments of brilliance mixed with long passages of incomplete play.
And thirdly, I don’t think the breakdown is as much an issue right now as attacking sides’ failure to breach the defensive line. The whole idea behind running rugby is that you avoid rucks by passing the ball. There may be a lot of slowing or killing of the ball by defences these days, but play breaks down in the tackle before a ruck has even formed because the support play is so bad. The support play is poor because the attack is directionless. If you ask me, rugby is suffering a hangover from Brumbies phase ball and sides currently have no idea what to do from a static ruck. They either have a forward hit it up or try to fling it wide where there’s no space. I saw this in person at the final of the Japanese Top League and it led to turnover after turnover.
mitzter said | February 9th 2010 @ 12:41pm | Report comment
Thank you OJ
1. I agree not all infringing is cheating. I can think of times where i’ve gone straight off my feet at ruck when my own teammates have smashed into the back of me etc. but it’s about intention obviously, just like in foul play. If I was trying to stay on my feet etc. I understand this can be somewhat of a grey area and often relies on some interpretation (which i know is a problem)
2. This is not so much about encouraging running rugby – i do believe in contest at every ruck. It truly is about cleaning up intentional cheating in games, as I really do see a lot of it.
3. obviously attacking sides not breaking defences are bad but most penalties are in the breakdown so it is a very big area of concern
ohtani's jacket said | February 10th 2010 @ 1:31am | Report comment
You see, I think a lot of the penalties are occuring because teams are taking the ball into rucks that they have no hope of getting out of. Generally speaking, if you form a good attacking ruck and the opposition infringes you’ll either be awarded a penalty or advantage, but a lot of attacking sides are getting out numbered in ruck situations and coughing the ball up basically. The whole idea of the tackler having less rights to the ball is a means to combat this situation I believe, but it’s not going to work unless the attacking side are organised at the breakdown.
A lot of what people call “cheating” here, defences would be stupid not to do, but I’d argue that it can’t really stop a good attacking side. It just makes the game ugly.
mattamkII said | February 9th 2010 @ 5:45pm | Report comment
ABFan…rucking yes, please bring it back!
I played a game 2 weeks ago against a team full of young blokes – the eldest would have been 22 and would have never played snr rugby with rucking allowed. They were lying all over the place slowing it down and, while the ref was onto it, my team plays pretty fast paced up rugby. So even when they were pinged we would play on under advantage meaning the ref really never got stuck into them….I got sick of it and gave a couple of what would have been considered kisses back in the day…well you should have heard them! you would think I had just shit on their lawn…crying like little girls.
Oh, and they also put in a post match complaint to the Union about foul play…was one of the cleanest games I have played in for a while yet this other mob actaully took some pics from the game coupled with post match pics of their boys and put in a complaint…….whats happening to the spirit of our game?
Ora said | February 10th 2010 @ 5:16am | Report comment
This all comes back to the naughty points mattamkll that some people want implemented,
This point system will only make things worse especially at super or international level.
As SANZAR have said the refs have been given the red light to crasck down on the slowing of the ball and in all likeliness there will be yellow cards handed out quicker than has been previously.
damo said | February 9th 2010 @ 8:56pm | Report comment
Well said Grandpa. I notice your comment did not draw a rabid response from the locked on whinge-watchers.
Congratulations.
And yes ABF and mattamkll, rucking used to be a way of squaring up the fairness of a ruck.
Ora said | February 10th 2010 @ 5:13am | Report comment
How absolutely ridiculouys you and your mate are,
One news last night highlighted the point I was making and SANZAR has said it has put pressure on it’s refs to be harder on the breakdown situation and on players slowing the ball down at the request of super 14 coaches.
But don’t let the truth and common sense get in your way Damo and Grandpa,
Oh don’t bother replying we all know what you are going to say the All Blacks and Richie are cheats yes we get it.
nf_001 said | February 10th 2010 @ 8:38am | Report comment
Mitzer, they already have a ’suspension’ system in place in rugby, its called a yellow card. Cheating is part of every sport especially at eltie level it just depends how much of a risk your willing to take and how good at getting away with it you are.
Peter K said | February 10th 2010 @ 2:45pm | Report comment
It is an interesting concept but the biggest issue I have is that not every game is equal.
Cheating would still be rife in the world cup final because who cares that you are suspended for the match after.
Same with a Heineken or S14 final.
Additionally players may be playing to the ref’s interpretation on the field i.e. he allows holding on for say 2-3 secs but the video assessors disagrees and then they get suspended whilst following the refs direction on the field. That is wrong.
I abhor the intentional cheating.
My preferred solution is mandatory yellow card for the 3rd offence of a type. Mandatory yellow card for a cyncial foul / cheat in the 22 red zone stopping attacking moves. Each and every cycnical foul.
Finally 2 referees should be on the field, this will catch most cheats and punish them vigourisly.