By Jason Cave
February 9th 2010 @ 2:37am
Loading ...Why not stage a best of hemisphere’s match?
Watching the Six Nations games on the weekend got me thinking: what if the best of the Six Nations combined to form a Northern XV to play a Southern XV made of players from the Tri-Nations in a one-off end-of-year match at Twickenham?
Instead of the usual end-of-season match played between the Barbarians and Wallabies, All Blacks or Springboks, when Australia, New Zealand and South Africa go on their spring tours to Europe, have the best from the Northern Hemisphere go up against the combined might of Southern Hemipshere rugby.
What would the two teams lineups look like? And who would win the game?
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(61)
rugbyfuture said | February 9th 2010 @ 2:45am | Report comment
The northern hemisphere would never agree, its sucha power in southern hemisphere rugby which would prove the administrative bias that the IRB has for the Northern Hemisphere teams have so the business case is too risky. consider that the southern hemisphere currently has the top three nations in the world, with a most probable fourth in a proffesional argentine team, followed closely by the pacific islands, where the Northern Hemisphere has the, basically bottom five in the top ten.
pothale said | February 9th 2010 @ 3:56am | Report comment
“The northern hemisphere would never agree, its sucha power in southern hemisphere rugby which would prove the administrative bias that the IRB has for the Northern Hemisphere teams have so the business case is too risky.”
This gets my Southern Hemisphere Grammarian of the Month Award.
If the Northern Hemisphere ‘has the, basically, bottom five in the top ten’, who has the top 5?
rugbyfuture said | February 9th 2010 @ 12:27pm | Report comment
geez dude, harshness much. NZ, SA, Aus, Arg, Fiji
pothale said | February 9th 2010 @ 5:44pm | Report comment
That would be Argentina and Fiji currently in 7th and 9th, who you say are in the top 5.
rugbyfuture said | February 9th 2010 @ 9:05pm | Report comment
fully read the comment above.
pothale said | February 10th 2010 @ 6:30am | Report comment
Yes I did. Hence why I made the comment. Fiji were thrashed on their tour this year. Argentina managed to beat Scotland by a single point with a team of players plying their trade professionally in various leagues.
Top 5? Don’t make me laugh.
Lee said | February 9th 2010 @ 4:46am | Report comment
Great idea…
Or even a British and Irish Lions team against a Southern Sharks/Sheep/Wombats team.
Also, I’d really like the idea of the Super 14 winners playing the Heineken cup winners. Not sure the best way to do that logistically wise but would make a good game.
PastHisBest said | February 9th 2010 @ 3:46pm | Report comment
“…Southern Sharks/Sheep/Wombats team.”
The Great White Sheepbats??
Mr cheese said | February 9th 2010 @ 5:52am | Report comment
How about a rugby league team against a rugby union team ??
Each team can play by its rules in the one match. Then we can find out which is best.
M Fromage
Peter said | February 10th 2010 @ 11:06am | Report comment
They did that in England between the Super League champions and the English rugby champions in about 1996. From memory the Union game was a 40 point walkover to the Union team and the League game was a slightly larger walkover to the League side. What did it show – that Union teams are better at Union and League teams are better at League.
Somehow I think I could have deduced that without the games being played.
Perhaps if they developed hybrid rules it would be possible but you would have both sides screaming bias in the rules. All I can think of is to play Union rules on one half of the field (with a phase counting as a play the ball) and League on the other. Would be a nightmare to referee though.
sheek said | February 9th 2010 @ 6:38am | Report comment
Jason,
It’s a great idea, but also this actually happened previously back in 1986 as part of IRB centenary celebrations.
Overseas Unions XV (Australia, NZL, RSA) beat Five Nations XV (Eng, Wal, Sco, Fra, Ire) by 32-13, 6 tries to two (4 point tries). Apparently, & unfortunately, the match was played in atrocious weather.
Neither Argentine nor Italian players were involved. Neither players from Pacific Islands, North America, Asia or other European countries.
There were two games played in 1986. The first involved an official British & Irish XV against The Rest of the World XV, including Frenchmen Blanco & Esteve.
The second involved the game mentioned above, with the frenchman moving across to the 5 Nations XV. I will report on these matches separately & presently.
Brett McKay said | February 9th 2010 @ 8:05am | Report comment
I guess the biggest problem would be timing. Either way, one team would be at the end of their season, the other at the start. But that alone shouldn’t stop it being attempted.
I like either idea, the 6Ns winner v the TNs winner, or likewise the winners of the HC and S14. Play it in Dubai, or Hong Kong, or Boston, wherever…
Rickety Knees said | February 9th 2010 @ 9:34am | Report comment
Brett – I don’t why they don’t play Rugby in the summer months in the NH. They would get much better playing conditions and then the NH might also get a greater appreciation for running rugby being played in conducive conditions. This would allow the game to have a common season and make the scheduling of global matches so much easier.
Dublin Dave said | February 10th 2010 @ 12:23am | Report comment
” I don’t why they don’t play Rugby in the summer months in the NH”
Groaan!!! Yet another Southern Hemisphere do-gooder who wants to stuff up our already miserable winters by removing one of the few uplifiting diversions we have put in place to relieve our gloom.
Rugby (among other things) was invented to alleivate the tedium of a climate where it gets dark at 5pm, doesn’t get light again until 9 am, it pisses rain, it’s cold, the buses don’t run on time and most life forms with any sense just go to sleep for a few months. As humans though, we have been resilient enough to create diversions which keep us sane during these trying times.
That’s why rugby exists.
Next thing you’ll be saying. “Jeez. Why do the poms not move Christmas to the middle of July so they can have a barbie on the beach like we do?”
It’s a mad, mad, mad idea. Doubtless, those marketing types who see sport as just another business to be globalised and streamlined for maximum financial gain will agree with you. But then, once they’ve run the game into the ground, they just “go forward” into the next “exciting opportunity” which could be anything from novelty ring tones to lunar holidays.
But you’ve got to remember what’s important. It’s a cynic who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Wavell Wakefield said | February 10th 2010 @ 5:35am | Report comment
I’ve heard a rumour that it gets pretty hot in the South of France.
Colin N said | February 10th 2010 @ 12:56am | Report comment
But isn’t the ‘height’ of the Southern Hemisphere season played during the winter months?
Brett McKay said | February 9th 2010 @ 10:05am | Report comment
Rickety, the NH think we try to tell them how to play the game already, I’m sure they’d love “our” suggestion that they convert to the northern summer!!
Winston said | February 15th 2010 @ 4:54pm | Report comment
For a start they should do it Barbars style at the World Cup instead of the rediculous battle for third. Players in the final would be excluded though of course.
pothale said | February 9th 2010 @ 10:04am | Report comment
Playing rugby in the summer months, RK? Well given the NH season starts in August and runs until June to include the SH tests – when would you suggest the season should start? Say Dec and finish with SH tests in Sept?
The variety of weather would be interesting as it moved into the summer months though. A soft rain in Munster, through to a warm day in Dublin, shirtsleeves in a clammy London, sweating in a sweltering Paris and collapsing in a boiling hot Rome.
There’s lots of other sports being played during the summer months. In Ireland, hurling and football dominate completely. Plus the Irish soccer league shifted its season to the summer.
I’ve played rugby on baked hard grounds – it isn’t funny. Your knees may be rickety, mine were permanently scorched.
Brett McKay said | February 9th 2010 @ 10:13am | Report comment
See what I mean Rickety?!?!
Rickety Knees said | February 9th 2010 @ 10:38am | Report comment
Pots – I would start domestic comps in February and finish in August. International comps would be Sept/Oct. Nov/Dec/Jan free. All matches played at night to maximise TV exposure and keep away from the heat of the day. Tournament and tour scheduling is far simpler, the crowds are not challenged by the weather, the players are playing on hard dry fast grounds and and the broadcasters are happy.
pothale said | February 9th 2010 @ 11:02am | Report comment
Ok I’ll nibble.
For the sake of the argument, I presume you’re ignoring what other sports would be on, and the demands of TV broadcasters faced with competing sports and time on air.
And that culturally, except for the French who like their rugby late in the day, rugby matches are preferred during the day, particularly for attendance.
I take the point about the weather, except in bloody Ireland where it will still continue to rain from Feb – May, whether it’s at night-time or not!
Assuming that grounds would be hard dry and fast before May would be unlikely, except maybe in Italy, and parts of southern France.
So the season would start with Magners/GP/Top 14 kicking in Feb. The H Cup would kick in around April. Since there’d be no international break, one assumes it keeps going till it’s finished, sometime around June/July. The league season and playoffs would be completed in mid-August. Two week break for int’l preparation, and then 6 Nations begins in Sept for 6 weeks. SANZAR would be told to appear in mid-October for one match only. No more SH trips. This would be done on a rotation basis, thus Italy would only have to play All Blacks in Milan once every six years.
It would make the World Cup more interesting.
Chris said | February 9th 2010 @ 10:24am | Report comment
Here’s five reasons:
a) The calendar is full already.
b) The South would win by an absurd amount.
c) Players would get injured.
d) Politics dictate you would have to include a token Scot and Italian in the Nthn XV regardless of merit.
e)You would never be able to fill two full strength sides as clubs would encourage players to pull out.
Maybe it could work as a quadrennial post World Cup tournament, but I can’t see it happening yearly. I think a few Argentinians/Islanders would resent your assertion that the Southern Hemisphere team would consist purely of 3N players.
Grandpabhaile said | February 9th 2010 @ 10:38am | Report comment
Here’s another five:
The calendar is full already
The North would win by an absurd amount of tackling
SH Players would get injured from these tackles
Politics would dictate that you have to include a token South African and NZ-born player in the Southern XV regardless of merit.
Australia would protest at not being given any places in the team, and field their own one.
Uproar breaks out when the Northern team elects to play the Aussie one instead because it would be more fun according to their respective spokespeople.
After much discussion, an Italian team is dispatched to Rotorua to play a 3 test series with the southern XV whilst the rest get on with the party.
World peace breaks out shortly afterwards and is seen as ‘not a bad thing’.
mattamkII said | February 9th 2010 @ 11:07am | Report comment
Pothole, dont get all grammar nazi and defensive.
NZ, Aust and the Saffers have held the top 3 position for most of recent memory. To deny the balance of playing power and dominance of the top is with the SH is a bit silly.
Jameswm said | February 9th 2010 @ 11:22am | Report comment
No Aussie bias in this team…and I don’t see enough of the Argies to include them.
15. No standout. Maybe the SAffa with the biggest boot ever – drops goals from his own quarter line at altitude. fran Steyn, that’s him
14. Sivivatu/Ioane
13. J De Villiers/Mortlock
12. Barnes/Giteau
11. Habana
10. Carter
9. Du Preez
8. Palu/Spies
7. McCaw
6. Berger/Elsom
5. Matfield
4. Botha
3. Hayman if eligible
2. Polota-Nau!!
1. Robinson
Roger said | February 9th 2010 @ 11:41am | Report comment
Muliaina
Sivivatu
Ione
Nonu
Habana
Carter
Du Preez
Spies
McCaw
Elsom
Matfield
Botha
Woodcock
Hore
Robinson
Nb 1 I am an Aussie
NB 2 I dont know about many Argies, there was a good No 8 at Stade the other day…Hernandez?
Colin N said | February 10th 2010 @ 1:00am | Report comment
Juan Martin Fernandez-Lobbe is better than Spies. If Hernandez was to play full-back then I would have him there. The likes of Ledesma and Roncero would be in contention in the front-row and Albacete at lock is a class player.
Roger said | February 10th 2010 @ 10:07am | Report comment
Thanks Colin, I saw Fernandez play for Stade last week and he looked great and would not look out of place in SH team. Am not sure Hernandez is better than mils at FB though…but always happy to put in an Argy prop instead of a kiwi…but not instead of Robinson:)
Colin N said | February 10th 2010 @ 11:34am | Report comment
Fernandez-Lobbe plays for Toulon; it’s Hernandez who plays for Stade.
pothale said | February 9th 2010 @ 11:29am | Report comment
Mattamk11
Who says I’m being defensive?
I’m not denying that SANZAR have held the top 3 for most of recent memory – (I presume you mean IRB table by the way). I was taking issue with the fact that NH has the bottom 5 in the top ten – cos it doesn’t. Nor does the SH have the Top 5 of the top 10.
So if you were truly creating a NH XV vs SH XV in order to be representative, the outcome wouldn’t be the foregone conclusion you may think it to be.
I like ‘grammar nazi’, though. Can I use that in the future and pass it off as my own?
In exchange you can translate into English what RF was saying from now on.
Rickety Knees said | February 9th 2010 @ 11:44am | Report comment
I have to agree with you Pots – I have no idea what RF was trying to say either
PastHisBest said | February 9th 2010 @ 4:11pm | Report comment
Ditto…however that’s usually the case…
rugbyfuture said | February 10th 2010 @ 12:08am | Report comment
I have to say that no wonder people don’t have an opinion anymore when all they get is criticism
PastHisBest said | February 10th 2010 @ 9:44am | Report comment
Chin up RF, nothing personal…
PastHisBest said | February 10th 2010 @ 9:45am | Report comment
OK, maybe it was…
rugbyfuture said | February 10th 2010 @ 12:04am | Report comment
basically, the southern hemisphere would smash them, the argies are number 7 without a proper comp going on and once they get going with pro status they will be number four, if anything joining the tri nations would force them into this position (if not above the wallabies) and that for basic reasons once this would get up and running they would hold the top four of the top eight (better for you to understand). no wonder the leagueys think we’re all douches.
pothale said | February 10th 2010 @ 3:21am | Report comment
Translation for other Roar readers:
“Basically, I think the Southern Hemisphere combined team would smash any Northern Hemisphere team. Why? Because Argentina are currently ranked No 7 without the benefit of a worthwhile competition in which to participate. Once they become professionals, I believe they will quickly become 4th in the world, particularly if they join the Tri-Nations, and potentially could be ranked higher than the Wallabies. So once this is up and running (although I’m avoiding putting in that it might take 5 years for this to happen) they would be in the top 4 of the top eight (which neatly avoids contradicting myself from earlier by excluding Fiji)and that is why I am right.
Is it any wonder that rugby league fans think the rest of you are completely thick, when you couldn’t understand a simple thing like that?
PastHisBest said | February 10th 2010 @ 9:46am | Report comment
Well done Pothale. You obviously have more energy and patience than I do. Then again, maybe it’s the Poth.
rugbyfuture said | February 10th 2010 @ 12:06pm | Report comment
2 years, read the news. top 8 isn’t much different to top ten. its called abstraction. not that you’re thick but that your up yourselves like nothing else, with no particular right to be. I’m not getting paid, im trying to voice my opinion as a rugby supporter, im not particularly known for my writing abilities, but i give it a go in my spare time, so i don’t think you have a right to criticise me. I’d like to see you attempt to draw or create a logo with no help in the same vein.
PastHisBest… I look forward to one day meeting you face to face, through the GRA.
mattamkII said | February 9th 2010 @ 11:49am | Report comment
haha.. I use ‘Grammar Nazi’ all the time as I am a pretty shocking at all that writing stuff and spell good england.
pothale said | February 10th 2010 @ 3:23am | Report comment
“spell good england”
Could you explain that?
Linebreaker said | February 9th 2010 @ 11:56am | Report comment
My team will be as follows for the SH team. To avoid any bias I have 5 Players from the 3 countries to feature.
15. Muliaina
14. Sivivatu
13. Mortlock
12. Barnes
11. Habana
10. Carter
09. Du Preez
08. Palu
07. McCaw (c)
06. Elsom
05. Matfield
04. Botha
03. Hayman
02. Du Plessis
01. Robinson
Pete said | February 10th 2010 @ 9:19am | Report comment
I think everyone outside NSW (or Northern Sydney/Eastern Suburbs) finds the selection of Barnes over Giteau/Nonu/De Villers abosolutely hilarious. Five players a side – Australia doesn’t deserve 5 players. It should be selected purely on merit.
I shunted a few players around from usual positions. Some have many standouts whereas some don’t. I’m sure players of such quality could easily adjust.
1. Random Argentinian no one (including myself) has heard of
2. Smit
3. Random Argentinian no one (including myself) has heard of
4. Botha
5. Matfield
6. Elsom
7. McCaw
8. Fernández Lobbe
9. Du Preez
10. Carter
11. Habana
12. Giteau
13. Nonu
14. Caucau (I don’t care how many issues he has – when he actually turns up the man is the greatest player I’ve ever seen)
15. Hernandez
16. Yeah, lets be honest – I know nothing of props (perhaps another random Argentinian?)
17. du Plessis
18. Burger
19. Smith
20. De Villers
21. Mortlock
22. Muliaina
Just realised I don’t have many Kiwi’s. This is not a slight on the NZ team – but more a reflection that they are an absolutely brilliant unit without any absolute standouts (McCaw/Carter excepted). The proverbial “Champion team” not a “Team of Champions”. I didn’t pick a reserve 4/5 as Elsom can cover those positions. Smith and Burger are both more than capable of covering all three back-row positions. I didn’t pick a reserve 9 because Giteau can cover it nor 10 as both Giteau and Hernandez can cover it. Picked Nonu out of position as I couldn’t possibly chose between him or Giteau at 12. Mortlock can cover 13/14/11 and Mils is brilliants at every outside back position.
Frankly if the Northern Hemisphere could come up with anything remotely near that I will be shocked. The Lions were easily dismissed by South Africa (who would have won all three if they actually bothered to play the 3rd Test) and I can’t see the addition of a couple of Frenchmen changing much (especially as South Africa is bolstered by Australia/NZ/Argentina).
pothale said | February 10th 2010 @ 9:29pm | Report comment
Pete – “The Lions were easily dismissed by South Africa (who would have won all three if they actually bothered to play the 3rd Test)”
So you didn’t actually watch the tests or see the result scorelines then?
Pete said | February 10th 2010 @ 10:45pm | Report comment
Game 1 was a walkover – and only looked close as a result of de Villers benching his best players in the 2nd half. Game 2 was a very close and good game but the Boks took the points and Game 3 was treated as nothing but a trial by the Boks. The series was over in two games (the only two games the Boks actually played).
That said perhaps I was a little harsh on the Lions it would have been very different if a) Shane Williams was started in all three and b) If O’Gara (who cannot really be blamed for an error he made while obviously concussed and out of position) started in all three. He comprehensively outplays Jones in the Ireland v. Wales game so they decide to play Jones for the Lions (not the first time they made this error – see Wilkinson in 2005). Go figure.
Regardless I think the addition of a bunch of AB’s, Wallabies and Argentinians to this team would be more than equal to the task of outplaying the couple of Frenchmen added to the Northern team.
Colin N said | February 11th 2010 @ 2:38am | Report comment
So they weren’t ‘easily dismissed were they?
Also, regarding the selections, Shane Williams was awful all tour and Stephen Jones had comprehensively outplayed O’Gara in the tour and was one of the Lions best players in all three tests.
The selection problems were in the pack – no Shaw/Hines, and Vickery and Mears didn’t plat well.
Colin N said | February 11th 2010 @ 2:40am | Report comment
play*
pothale said | February 11th 2010 @ 5:22am | Report comment
Pete
You think you were a little harsh? If the first game only looked close because of the departure of all the Boks best players (must check this assertion) but the second game was very good and very close, and the third game was lost by the Boks, then the statement ‘easily dismissed’ doesn’t really stand up at all.
You go on to state that but for a couple of wrong selections, the result would have been very different – and presumably in favour of the Lions.
This is somewhat contradictory with a statement that dismisses them out of hand completely had the Boks had fielded a full team for all three matches.
Besides that cavilling, the second point you should consider is that a combination team – like the Lions or Barbarians – is a lot more difficult to pull together and train, than a test team that has been together for a couple of years.
In a NH v SH match-up, that is what both teams would be faced with.
The other thing I would suggest for such a match-up is that it should be hemisphere representative so at least 6 Nations vs 6 Nations is required, using at least one player from each union.
sheek said | February 9th 2010 @ 12:51pm | Report comment
RK/Brett,
Actually agree with Pothale about keeping the NH/SH seasons separate. Something about what the French call “vive la difference”…..
Brett McKay said | February 9th 2010 @ 1:02pm | Report comment
Rickety’s on his own on this one Sheek (sorry mate), I’d love to get to Twickenham or Cardiff on a cold northern November day!!
Rickety Knees said | February 9th 2010 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
With a bottle of Black Bushmills stashed in the coat – strictly for use as anti freeze! Everything is relative I played Rugby in the UK in the middle of winter and hated it. I froze my bollocks off!
pothale said | February 9th 2010 @ 5:46pm | Report comment
I knew it would come down to something personal. And you can’t get more personal than that.
Colin N said | February 10th 2010 @ 1:04am | Report comment
Although I’m sure Brian O’Driscoll enjoyed it as well when he nearly died of hypothermia when he played a June test in New Zealand
klestical said | February 9th 2010 @ 7:03pm | Report comment
Jason, this has actually happened quite recently as well. I think in 2006 to raise money for the asian tsunami relief? needless to say, southern hemisphere won…
Rowdy said | February 9th 2010 @ 11:53pm | Report comment
I thought all the Argies played in Europe, so surely they’re a NH team ?
Anotgher reason not to hold this would be that it would perpetuate the deeply depressing NH-SH nerninerninerners which taints the “World Game”.
pothale said | February 10th 2010 @ 6:34am | Report comment
“nerninerninerners”!!
I’m gonna use that too – love it.
Try saying it out loud, without laughing or at least smiling.
Johnson said | February 10th 2010 @ 4:37am | Report comment
Didn’t they stage this match back around 2005 – if I recall Rod McQueen was coaching the Southern Hemisphere team
It was a bit of dud in the end as it counted for nothing and coaches were worried about losing their players to injury
Sam Taulelei said | February 10th 2010 @ 7:02am | Report comment
Johnson
That was a benefit match for the Indonesian tsunami relief. Not really the same thing
Ramirez said | February 10th 2010 @ 8:46am | Report comment
Maybe we should call the Tri Nations team “Black Wallaboks”?
Sheldon said | February 10th 2010 @ 8:48pm | Report comment
I thought you guys need a Saffa on the selection panel here
15.Steyn
14. Sivivatu
13. J De Villiers
12. Giteau
11. Habana
10. Carter
9. Du Preez
8. Spies
7. McCaw
6. Brossouw
5. Matfield
4. Botha (Hopefully Spiro would want him on the field under these circumstances, I wonder what he would write about him then)
3. Hayman
2. Hore
1. Robinson