Cipriani signing is a jackpot for Melbourne
Roar Guru By kingplaymaker, 23 Feb 2010 kingplaymaker is a Roar Guru
- Tagged:
- Danny Cipriani, Melbourne Rebels, Rugby Union, Super 15
155 Have your say
Most Australian rugby fans probably know very little about Danny Cipriani, as it seems do most Australian journalists. They hear some vague ideas of a reasonably talented prima-donna drifting across the hemispheres, a player given chances to establish himself at international level but unwilling to conform to team discipline and ruining his own career as a result.
All of this is nonsense: here’s the truth.
First, regarding his talent, Cipriani is a 24-carat genius, a staggeringly brilliant and blindingly fast playmaking outside half. There has rarely been a player in this position in the recent history of the game with such a mesmeric combination of spatial vision, astonishing pace and charmed hands. He is not simply a big talent, but as big talent as ever appears.
Secondly, his history.
In 2008 he burst onto the scene as the dominant fly-half in the English game, shredding defences left and right as if they were made of paper, and forcing his way into the England team for the final match of the Six Nations against Ireland, duly shredding the lines of green, kicking all his goals, and leading what had been a struggling team to a triumphant victory.
The week before he had also been selected at full-back, but dropped after the press photographed him leaving a nightclub on the thursday before the match.
This, combined with the existence of a celebrity girlfriend, led to the creation in the media of the myth that he is a lackadaiscal playboy, more interested in his own image than perfecting his game and unwilling to do anything authority tells him.
The wise, experienced England coach at the time, Brian Ashton, was then subsequently fired and replaced by Martin Johnson, a newcomer to the world of managing and coaching at any level.
Cipriani was injured badly, and then in the autumn rushed in prematurely by Johnson.
He didn’t play as well as he might, but was more hampered by the dreadful assembly of backs selected outside him who squandered every pearl of creativity cast at them and by the dire, confused overall performance of the team under its new management.
Johnson fully believed the media myth that Cipriani was a playboy, and proceeded to impose a bully-boy discipline on him, dropping him, humiliating him by choosing numerous and often inept outside-halves above him, in the hope that the young man would come forth on bended knee and declare himself Johnson’s slave. This was the England supremo’s conception of man-management.
The media myth was absurd to begin with, as Cipriani is a serious, hard-working man who occasionally flutters into the media lime-light as he has every right to, but never to the detriment of his game or the team he plays for.
A series of fierce confrontations between the two ensued, as the young genius struggled to understand why Johnson was so bent on destroying his rugby career. In the end he was thrust away forever, Johnson unable to manage him or any challenge to his own authority, and probably incapable of perceving the level of ability he was dealing with too. In despair he left this cursed world and moved to the new hope offered by Rod Macqueen in Melbourne.
Never has there been such a statement of rejection from a player to its management. But then again, never has there been such unsuccessful management.
In this way one of the greatest talents in world rugby was lost to England.
What is England’s loss is Melbourne’s gain.
Macqueen should tread carefully though, as he is receiving severely damaged goods. Cipriani’s confidence and self-esteem have been ground into the dust, his sporting dreams left in tatters.
They must be built up again.
He would naturally much rather be playing for England, and may struggle for motivation.
Lastly, after two years, despite being a committed team player, he has been angrily told he is not, and so the last thing he wants to hear is Macqueen lecturing him on how important the team is.
The wisdom behind Melbourne’s recruiting is obvious now, as the two league players they are interested in, Israel Folau and Manu Vatuvei, are in the ideal positions and at the perfect ages to crossover successfully.
In the past, league converts have normally been hired when they are almost over the hill, and have often failed in consequence. If firepower such as Folau and Vatuvei is put at the disposal of Cipriani, devastating results will ensue.
One thing is certain though, with this man at the helm, from the very first match, Melbourne will be competitive and exhilarating to watch.
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- Danny Cipriani, Melbourne Rebels, Rugby Union, Super 15
February 23rd 2010 @ 2:32am
PB said | February 23rd 2010 @ 2:32am | Report comment
A little OTT, but I agree with the sentiment in this article. Cipriani is undoubtedly highly talented (i have a close friend who plays with him at Wasps and tells me his work ethic and approach to training and the team is excellent) and has been badly managed by England. Cipriani has skills in the southern hemisphere mould, and playing against the best in the business week in week out can only serve to improve his game, restore his confidence, and later on, add value to the English International team. His signing will also give much added profile to Super Rugby in the Northern Hempisphere. Ultimately everyone wins – I think this is an excellent signing.
February 23rd 2010 @ 4:36am
katzilla said | February 23rd 2010 @ 4:36am | Report comment
‘There has rarely been a player in this position in the recent history of the game with such a mesmeric combination of spatial vision, astonishing pace and charmed hands. He is not simply a big talent, but as big talent as ever appears.’
Im gonna go out on a limb here and say you think hes tops
I like the fact they’ve signed him and I think he’ll go great guns if Melbourne can recruit a couple of top midfielders to back him up.
As for misconceptions, why would anyone in Australia think anything other then ‘He has potential that hasn’t been realised’?
Thats the truth of it no matter how much you love him and which part of the upper reaches of heaven he fell from.
He needs to prove himself against the best in the world, then the cred will come and maybe more will buy your ‘I <3 Cipriani' T Shirts.
I'll give him props for coming though.
P.S – Your not really Kelly Brook are you?
February 23rd 2010 @ 7:31am
Brett McKay said | February 23rd 2010 @ 7:31am | Report comment
“Im gonna go out on a limb here and say you think hes tops”
Gold, Katz…
KPM, it doesn’t matter if preconcpetions exist, or if “..most Australian rugby fans probably know very little about Danny Cipriani…” (and thank goodness you could provide “the truth”), the fact is he’s coming to Melbourne, and now the Rebels are off and running, and will build a side around him.
Good on Melbourne for pulling it off, and good on Cipriani for taking a punt on his career…
February 23rd 2010 @ 7:39am
kingplaymaker said | February 23rd 2010 @ 7:39am | Report comment
Brett in fact I’m not praising Cipriani particularly highly at all, odd though it may sound. He is probably far better than I say in fact, which is why there is such obsession from all corners with him. This is not a mercurial player like Michalak, or a highly talented one such as Quade Cooper, but a true phenomenon of the kind British rugby really never produces.
He is an attacking player by nature though and if a team’s built around him it should play in that mould.
Crucially he is a fly-half and not a full-back, and now that Rod Macqueen has snared such an astonishing player in this position he should abandon the absurd idea of playing him at full-back, which is probably based on ignorance of his true ability.
Katzilla Kelly Brook hardly even qualifies as a real celebrity girlfriend as she’s eight years older than HIM.
February 23rd 2010 @ 7:49am
Brett McKay said | February 23rd 2010 @ 7:49am | Report comment
let me know when you want to give him a wrap then KPM, it’ll be entertaining reading
February 23rd 2010 @ 7:50am
kingplaymaker said | February 23rd 2010 @ 7:50am | Report comment
Well he’s worth 10 Thurstons and at a third of the price
February 23rd 2010 @ 8:08am
Brett McKay said | February 23rd 2010 @ 8:08am | Report comment
that you’ll get no disagreement from me on…
February 24th 2010 @ 11:06am
sam a said | February 24th 2010 @ 11:06am | Report comment
“he should abandon the absurd idea of playing him at full-back, which is probably based on ignorance of his true ability”
I doubt Rod Macqueen is ignorant of anything to do with his players. Cipriani is a tremendous talent, and Macqueen is no rugby idiot – he chasd this kid’s signature for a reason. If Macqueen thinks he’d make a better fullback in his team, that decision will have been based on anything but ignorance. Claiming that Macqueen is ignorant is a fairly big call, and seems to be solely based on your personal opinion of Cipriani and his footballing ability. When you yourself are coach of a provincial rugby team, let me know, because I’d be very interested to hear how you make your selections.
February 25th 2010 @ 1:27am
phil in dubai said | February 25th 2010 @ 1:27am | Report comment
My son played with Cips from age 10 or 11 through to 15 at Rosslyn Park and throughout all this time he was a phenomenal player and at the same time a bit of an enigma. He has been single handedly driven out of English rugby by dinosaurs who cannot appreciate the precious talent that he will undoubtedly prove that he is. This article is about as spot on as I have ever read about Cips and have no doubt that once Johnson fails as the England manager we will see Cipriani reinstated to were he belongs.
February 25th 2010 @ 2:40am
Wavell Wakefield said | February 25th 2010 @ 2:40am | Report comment
Hey Phil, what was your son’s name, if you don’t mind me asking, because my uncle coached/es at Rossyln Park.
February 23rd 2010 @ 5:03am
Wavell Wakefield said | February 23rd 2010 @ 5:03am | Report comment
I’m going to ignore the GCSE attempt to mimick Stephen Jones and focus on something factual.
‘He didn’t play as well as he might, but was more hampered by the dreadful assembly of backs selected outside him who squandered every pearl of creativity cast at them’
v Ireland
9. Wigglesworth, 10. Cipriani, 11. Vainikolo, 12. Flood, 13. Noon, 14. Sackey, 15. Balshaw
v Pacific Islands
9. Care, 10. Cipriani, 11. Monye, 12. Flutey, 13. Noon, 14. Sackey, 15. Armitage
v Australia
9. Care, 10. Cipriani, 11. Monye, 12. Flutey, 13. Noon, 14. Sackey, 15. Armitage
v SA
9. Care, 10. Cipriani, 11. Monye, 12. Flutey, 13. Noon, 14. Sackey, 15. Armitage
So… the backline versus Ireland was somehow able to capitalise on the genius exuberance of Cipriani, but a backline with Noon still at 13, and Sackey still at 14, plus the inclusion of two British Lions at 11 and 12 was not on the same wavelength as the boy genius? I suppose the fact that the Irish midfield contained Horgan and Trimble (two wingers) had nothing to do with what was an excellent debut start, and the poor performance of the English pack had nothing to do with three poor performances the following Autumn? I was always brought up, actually playing rugby, KPM, under the premise that the pack allows the backline to flourish. Thank you for your ‘article’. I’m glad that somebody who was actually there with Cipriani and Johnson was able to add a personal perspective.
February 23rd 2010 @ 7:21am
Grimmace said | February 23rd 2010 @ 7:21am | Report comment
The thing I don’t understand is how the coach of a national team can be allowed to treat someone with so much talent so badly. Surely someone in such a high position can put persional issues aside.
February 23rd 2010 @ 7:34am
kingplaymaker said | February 23rd 2010 @ 7:34am | Report comment
Grimmace Johnson is clearly unable to handle such a complex man and complex talent.
He also has the unwavering support of the RFU.
The great news to emerge on the day when Cipriani announced his decision, was that Francis Baron, the terrible chief of the RFU, has decided to resign. He gave Johnson the job and was the single biggest obstacle to his being fired. Now he has gone, a new head with some sense may be able to replace MJ.
February 23rd 2010 @ 7:56am
True Tah said | February 23rd 2010 @ 7:56am | Report comment
Cipriani is probably one of the few rugby players with any real presence in England. Whilst being a talented player no doubt helps, the fact he has a smoking hot girlfriend, is good looking and posed with naught but a rugby ball preserving his modesty really made him more popular….Johnson is old school, he was hardly going to be as big a hit with the ladies as Danny boy is, and probably has a chip on his shoulder.
If no one knew who he was in Australia, they certainly will know by 2011. Really looking forward to seeing how he can go.
February 23rd 2010 @ 8:01am
kingplaymaker said | February 23rd 2010 @ 8:01am | Report comment
True Tah Johnson must have problems in the first place finding a woman who can reach up there..
Of course he and Cipriani differ in their physical appearances and level of glamour, which could well explain it all!
February 23rd 2010 @ 9:08pm
Wavell Wakefield said | February 23rd 2010 @ 9:08pm | Report comment
I should point out to all SH Roarers that actually none of the alleged spats between Johnson and Cipriani has ever, ever been confirmed by either person, or any source, or really by any pundit. Hence in the various ‘Cipriani goes Rebel’ stories there is simply no mention of this sort of thing, ‘A series of fierce confrontations between the two ensued’, hence during the lamentable mummy-son interview between Stephen Jones and Cipriani Cipriani felt at pains to suggest that he didn’t really speak to Johnson, and not that Johnson verbally mashed him. The facts are quite simple: Cipriani was chosen for Johnson’s first four tests as Manager. He didn’t play well because he was surrounded by one of the most inexperienced teams in English history, and because he had come back far too early from a terrible injury. Johnson publicly admitted that he rushed the player back too soon. Frankly, a lot of the initial ‘article’ is a figment of a young man’s imagination. End of Act 1.
Cipriani then spent the next season playing in a very mediocre-poor Wasps side and never regained any form. Oddly enough he was dropped from the Senior EPS squad for in form players. Doesn’t that make Johnson a monster?! How terrible. Anyhow, one has to wonder why those rugby geniuses (wonderfully exagerrated more like) Ian McGeechan or Shaun Edwards could not raise the spirits of the man given they were in daily contact with him? Now… rather than use the off-season to have the various bits of metal removed from his ankle Cipriani decided to play the summer out in the hope of making the Lions tour (McGeechan had picked him as a reserve, and then chose James Hook when an injury did occur). Accordingly, Cipriani was given an opportunity to improve his match fitness during the England Saxons Churchill Cup campaign. Cipriani was utterly dismal, and his on-field attitude stank. End of Act 2.
Cipriani was still not getting picked by Johnson due largely to the fact that he hadn’t been performing well over a two season period. That he was rarely in the EPS squad, and thus rarely in contact with Johnson suggests there are other factors involved in his poor form, as aforementioned. Cipriani’s form was and has still been mediocre this season. When he did look like picking up form again he was injured. I’m not sure what Johnson has to do with that? Cipriani obviously then cannot make the EPS squad. End of Act 3.
February 24th 2010 @ 7:44am
kingplaymaker said | February 24th 2010 @ 7:44am | Report comment
No, Johnson selected an awful team, especially an awful backline, around Cipriani, coached them badly, and so made him look bad. He then dropped him, tried to bully him, and so finally the young man had enough and left. Who can blame him.
February 24th 2010 @ 8:45am
Wavell Wakefield said | February 24th 2010 @ 8:45am | Report comment
‘No, Johnson selected an awful team, especially an awful backline, around Cipriani, coached them badly, and so made him look bad. He then dropped him, tried to bully him, and so finally the young man had enough and left. Who can blame him.’
1. In your opinion he selected an awful backline, but you haven’t actually established your definition of what a good backline actually is. All you have done is made casual reference to the odd back three player. That is hardly sound analysis.
2. Johnson does not coach.
3. Johnson dropped Cipriani because he was playing poorly. That is what managers and coaches do. The England A coaches didn’t start Cipriani. Wasps didn’t also dropped Cipriani.
4. There is no proof whatsoever that Johnson bullied Cipriani, hence there is nothing in the media that even suggests such a thing. It’s obvious that you’re a Cipriani fan but you cannot make things up and demand that they be recognised as truth simply on your say so.
February 23rd 2010 @ 7:25am
kingplaymaker said | February 23rd 2010 @ 7:25am | Report comment
Wavell the backline facing Ireland was significantly better, as Armitage and Monye are a pair of no-hopers in attack.
The pack played far better, under Ashton rather than Johnson’s direction, who churned out the dreadful autumn efforts.
So as I said in the article, the lower quality backline, chosen by Johnson, and the bad overall performance of the team, again engineered by Johnson, together reduced Cipriani’s possibilities for playmaking and the weaponery outside him to execute it.
February 23rd 2010 @ 8:17am
Colin N said | February 23rd 2010 @ 8:17am | Report comment
It couldn’t by any chance that Cipriani has played since coming back from injury could it?
But I don’t believe we should just concentrate on international games, as being selected is mainly based on club performances, where Cipriani’s hasn’t been very good. He’s starting to play better now, but for the last couple of seasons, Wasps have looked significantly better with Walder at 10.
February 23rd 2010 @ 8:29am
Colin N said | February 23rd 2010 @ 8:29am | Report comment
“It couldn’t by any chance that Cipriani has played since coming back from injury could it?”
That should read: “It couldn’t by any chance be that Cipriani hasn’t played particularly well since coming back from injury could it?”
February 23rd 2010 @ 9:39am
kingplaymaker said | February 23rd 2010 @ 9:39am | Report comment
Colin, no, it’s that his confidence has been crushed by Johnson and he is disillusioned with rugby.
Wavell Monye and Armitage are mediocre attacking players, who rarely make linebreaks or trouble defences.
The key to a number 10 is partly the pack, but more that there are gifted players outside him to capitalise on the great attacking spaces he creates. When there are ungifted players outside him, he inevitably looks bad.
Wells may be specifically the forwards coach, but Ashton was the overall coach and hence responsible for the overall performance of the team, including the pack. He determined in the end who they were and how they played, and a lot more successfully than MJ.
The whole thing about senior players taking over in the World Cup was a silly story cooked up by disgruntled has-beens like Dallaglio, unhappy with being relegated to the bench for the tournament.
I don’t think for a moment Vainikolo and Balshaw are no-hopers in attack: Balshaw is a shaky full-back when it comes to the high ball but a good attacking wing, and Vainikolo was put in the England team extremely prematurely when he had only played a handful of games in union. It takes more than 5 games for a league player to learn union.
February 23rd 2010 @ 10:09am
Colin N said | February 23rd 2010 @ 10:09am | Report comment
And the club form?
February 23rd 2010 @ 12:26pm
kingplaymaker said | February 23rd 2010 @ 12:26pm | Report comment
Johnson’s devastating effect-loss of hope, confidence, the flower trodden underfoot the moment it blooms. Cipriani’s soaring career slammed to the ground by MJ’s indelicate hand. No wonder a loss of form results in this broken man: how often does a rugby player have to undergo psychological counselling because of his manager? This is the magical Johnson touch.
February 23rd 2010 @ 10:18pm
Colin N said | February 23rd 2010 @ 10:18pm | Report comment
If Cipriani was that good then it shouldn’t have affected his club. Two Sale players, Chris Jones and Charlie Hodgson, have been treated terribly by England (and the media), but has it affected their form for Sale? No.
In fact, Hodgson has worked hard and now forced his way back to the fringes of the squad.
February 23rd 2010 @ 8:51pm
Wavell Wakefield said | February 23rd 2010 @ 8:51pm | Report comment
‘Colin, no, it’s that his confidence has been crushed by Johnson and he is disillusioned with rugby’
And none of Hanks, McGeechan, Edwards or Mallinder could affect this lack of confidence?
‘Wavell Monye and Armitage are mediocre attacking players, who rarely make linebreaks or trouble defences.’
Really? So Cipriani was poor in those three starts because Monye and Armitage cant make line breaks? Why has he been so poor at club and A level then?
‘The key to a number 10 is partly the pack, but more that there are gifted players outside him to capitalise on the great attacking spaces he creates. When there are ungifted players outside him, he inevitably looks bad.’
No, it’s basically entirely the pack and the 9, and then the outside backs. There’s a domino progression. If a fly half is that gifted he can lift the players around or him, or simply play a variety of games to suit the packs.
‘Wells may be specifically the forwards coach, but Ashton was the overall coach and hence responsible for the overall performance of the team, including the pack. He determined in the end who they were and how they played, and a lot more successfully than MJ’
Basically the same forwards were chosen by and large by both men. The forwards are/were coached by Wells and thus Ashton has no real input into their work. Like I said, I asked you to define which pack, because I saw some of Ashton’s packs absolutely destroyed.
‘The whole thing about senior players taking over in the World Cup was a silly story cooked up by disgruntled has-beens like Dallaglio, unhappy with being relegated to the bench for the tournament.’
And Mike Catt, Olly Barkley, Fraser Waters, Simon Shaw, Josh Lewsey and Andy Gomarsall… all those players PLUS Dallaglio cooked up a media story to undermine a man?
‘I don’t think for a moment Vainikolo and Balshaw are no-hopers in attack: Balshaw is a shaky full-back when it comes to the high ball but a good attacking wing, and Vainikolo was put in the England team extremely prematurely when he had only played a handful of games in union. It takes more than 5 games for a league player to learn union.’
So you’re suggesting that either player would somehow lift the performance of Cipriani?
February 24th 2010 @ 7:40am
kingplaymaker said | February 24th 2010 @ 7:40am | Report comment
None of the Wasps coaches could select him for England and hence restore his dreams as Johnson could so no, they couldn’t restore his confidence.
Cipriani was fine in those three starts, but Armitage, Monye etc..were unable to capitalise on the superb positions he put them in. At club level, any loss of form is due to his damaged confidence.
What you say about the fly-half is not true: if the strike runners outside him are bad, no creativity will draw anything out of them. 10 relies on 13, 11, 14, 15 to make him look good. If they are bad he can never look good.
The forwards selected by the two coaches were not the same. More importantly, the head coach totally determines the playing style for the whole team, regardless of who the specific forwards coach is. The pack plays Ashton’s way or not Ashton’s way.
Cooking up a story: yes. Those players were mainly old has-beens, unhappy at their lack of prominence in the team.
Vainikolo, Balshaw, JSD, Ashton, Foden: players like this outside Cipriani would make him look better, certainly.
February 24th 2010 @ 7:54am
Colin N said | February 24th 2010 @ 7:54am | Report comment
“None of the Wasps coaches could select him for England and hence restore his dreams as Johnson could so no, they couldn’t restore his confidence.”
Are you suggesting that despite poor performances, keeping him in the England squad would improve his confidence?
When off form, the international scene is hardly the place to recover it.
“Cipriani was fine in those three starts, but Armitage, Monye etc..were unable to capitalise on the superb positions he put them in.”
He didn’t put them in any decent positions. I’ve responded to this above, when did this happen? Have you got any evidence? There’s no point repeating the same point if you have nothing to back it up.
“At club level, any loss of form is due to his damaged confidence.”
Then he shouldn’t be in international rugby because he’s mentally frail. hodgson recovered his confidence as has Andy Goode. In fact, the majority of the players dropped from the EPS have simply got on with their jobs.
Foden’s been messed about, but has kept putting in the performances.
“if the strike runners outside him are bad, no creativity will draw anything out of them. 10 relies on 13, 11, 14, 15 to make him look good.”
If would say it’s the other way round. It’s up to the pack to produce good ball for the nine and the 10 to control the game and call the shots.
In the Autumn, the pack didn’t produce good ball, but it’s still possible to put on a good performance (Once again I cite Hodgson as an example). Individually for Cipriani that didn’t happen.
February 24th 2010 @ 7:56am
Wavell Wakefield said | February 24th 2010 @ 7:56am | Report comment
‘None of the Wasps coaches could select him for England and hence restore his dreams as Johnson could so no, they couldn’t restore his confidence.’
I’ll think you will find that the Wasps coaches didn’t even regularly pick Cipriani for Wasps.
‘Cipriani was fine in those three starts, but Armitage, Monye etc..were unable to capitalise on the superb positions he put them in. At club level, any loss of form is due to his damaged confidence.’
Colin has already asked you to describe these ‘positions’ that Armitage and Monye were put into. You still haven’t. Personally I rarely see 10s put wings into great positions.
So, three poor test matches resulted in two years of confidence so low that no coach, be it Mallinder, McGeechan, Edwards or Hanks could ever restore this young man to full capacity?! That seems a little peculair to me.
‘What you say about the fly-half is not true: if the strike runners outside him are bad, no creativity will draw anything out of them.’
But if the pack is good a fly half can play a percentage game. And, as aforementioned, Cipriani had Noon outside of him and his fellow club player (and 07/08 GP player of the year inside of him). In any case, the greatest fly half of the modern era, as you paint Cipriani, would obviously be able to improve the fortunes of any mere mortals around him.
‘The forwards selected by the two coaches were not the same.’
Actually they were. Do some research on the RFU page or even scrum.com. Also, I asked you to define what packs you were talking about because Brian Ashton was an erratic selector.
‘The pack plays Ashton’s way or not Ashton’s way.’
Brian Ashton did not teach the pack to scrum, ruck or counter ruck, something that the forwards did well.. Again, I offer your the RFU home page to examine the roles of the coaching panel. Also, you forget the fact that Ashton was actually a coach. Johnson is not.
‘Cooking up a story: yes. Those players were mainly old has-beens, unhappy at their lack of prominence in the team.’
All of those players cooked up a story? All of them? That seems very, very far fetched unless, of course, you have access to the England rugby team and know something that everyone else doesn’t.
‘Vainikolo, Balshaw, JSD, Ashton, Foden: players like this outside Cipriani would make him look better, certainly.’
You persistently refer to back three players as if they have any relationship with the 10. You seem to have forgotten the role of 9, 12 and 13.
February 23rd 2010 @ 6:50pm
Pajovic said | February 23rd 2010 @ 6:50pm | Report comment
‘Wasps have looked significantly better with Walder at 10′.
YES! Does anyone watch club rugby anymore? try looking at 24 months of club rugby as opposed to 80 minutes against Ireland 2 years ago.
February 23rd 2010 @ 10:32pm
Pajovic said | February 23rd 2010 @ 10:32pm | Report comment
‘Johnson’s devastating effect-loss of hope, confidence, the flower trodden underfoot the moment it blooms. Cipriani’s soaring career slammed to the ground by MJ’s indelicate hand. No wonder a loss of form results in this broken man: how often does a rugby player have to undergo psychological counselling because of his manager? This is the magical Johnson touch’.
BTW, this sounds like a half baked stab at poetry……………….mere prattle without practice I fear………
February 24th 2010 @ 1:00am
kingplaymaker said | February 24th 2010 @ 1:00am | Report comment
Pajovic except there is also Cipriani playing better than Walder, not that that’s difficult.
February 24th 2010 @ 1:15am
Wavell Wakefield said | February 24th 2010 @ 1:15am | Report comment
‘Pajovic except there is also Cipriani playing better than Walder’
You can’t have watched much GP rugby over the past two seasons if you think that statement is correct.
February 24th 2010 @ 2:25am
kingplaymaker said | February 24th 2010 @ 2:25am | Report comment
Yes and I can and have and think it is correct.
February 24th 2010 @ 8:48am
Wavell Wakefield said | February 24th 2010 @ 8:48am | Report comment
‘Yes and I can and have and think it is correct.’
I’m not sure what this means. Are you trying to say that you have watched a lot of GP rugby over the past two seasons and that Cipriani has been better than Walder? If that’s the case then fine. This is an opinion site after all, and that various posters disagree with you on that matter is thus irrelevant. However, what is not irrelivant is the fact that the Wasps coaches disagree with you, and have done for a while. Just like Josh Lewsey, I’m sure they hold a more pertinent position than you or I. Incidentally, I wasn’t aware that the GP was widely coveed in Spain?
February 24th 2010 @ 1:21am
Colin N said | February 24th 2010 @ 1:21am | Report comment
How can you say that Cipriani has played better than Walder over the last two years? It’s simply ridiculous to assert otherwise
Walder’s an average player, but has nevertheless played better than Cipriani.
Cipriani is more talented, but he’s been given a lot of chances. Often during a Wasps game; when Cipriani starts he will often be shifted to full-back and Walder brought on, because he hasn’t played well enough in the fly-half position.
February 24th 2010 @ 2:26am
kingplaymaker said | February 24th 2010 @ 2:26am | Report comment
Statistics to support that Colin?
February 24th 2010 @ 2:30am
Colin N said | February 24th 2010 @ 2:30am | Report comment
Which bit?
February 23rd 2010 @ 8:57am
Wavell Wakefield said | February 23rd 2010 @ 8:57am | Report comment
‘Wavell the backline facing Ireland was significantly better, as Armitage and Monye are a pair of no-hopers in attack.’
What on earth does that mean? What does a ‘no-hoper’ in attack mean, and doesn’t that somewhat limit the job description of a back three player? Also, does that comment mean you are suggesting that Vainikolo and Balshaw are not no-hopers in attack? Further, what difference does it make who plays on the wing, when the key to a 10 is the pack, 9 and 12?
‘The pack played far better, under Ashton rather than Johnson’s direction, who churned out the dreadful autumn efforts.’
The forward coach under both eras was/is John Wells, not Ashton and Johnson. Also, I think it necessary that you define what pack/period you are talking about, because I saw some of Ashton’s packs get absolutely demolished. It was only during the 07 WC when Ashton had been sidelined by the senior players, and that England fielded one of the biggest packs in its history that the forwards produced consecutive effective performances.
Do you work for the RFU or London Wasps, btw?
February 23rd 2010 @ 8:16am
sheek said | February 23rd 2010 @ 8:16am | Report comment
Cipriani is, how old right now….. 22? He doesn’t turn 23 until November.
So he plays for the Rebels in 2011 & 2012, aged 23 & 24, then returns to England for the 2012/13 season, having just turned 25.
After two seasons in Australia in the S15, under MacQueen’s guidance, he should become a well-rounded player to add to his extravagent gifts.
It’s what I would call a win-win situation. Melbourne/Victoria benefits in 2011 & 12, then England benefits from 2013 until Cipriani decides to retire. How good might England be in 2015, with Cipriani leading their attack? He will, in 2015, still only be 27 going on 28.
February 23rd 2010 @ 9:54am
kingplaymaker said | February 23rd 2010 @ 9:54am | Report comment
Sheek of course, it’s just sad that he has been wrecked by Martin Johnson, as it’s so unnecessary.
Of course for Cipriani to return, Johnson would have to be fired.
Cipriani’s probably moved overseas to wait for him to be fired.
February 23rd 2010 @ 11:31am
sheek said | February 23rd 2010 @ 11:31am | Report comment
KPM,
Great players & captains don’t necessarily translate into great coaches & managers. I don’t think Johnson is of “the right stuff”. At least not at present.
I think he will most likely be dumped after the 2011 RWC, allowing a new face to take over & thus, also likely redemption for Cipriani.
As for Johnson, he might eventually become a great coach/manager, but at present I think he is discovering there are subtle but significant differences between what worked for him as a player/captain, & being a coach/manager.
February 23rd 2010 @ 12:07pm
kingplaymaker said | February 23rd 2010 @ 12:07pm | Report comment
Sheek Johnson has no experience, but might have had some natural ability as a coach to make up for it: it has become clear he doesn’t. Conversely he might have had some experience but no ability, but the experience would have taught him just to follow the good advice of others rather than his own blundering ideas, but of course he doesn’t have experience. So with neither ability, nor experience, he is a disaster.
The problem is that most of the dinosaur-like RFU blindly believe he will succeed simply because he was a very good player and a kind of bulldog English icon, and I fear they may persist with him until the bitter end.
February 23rd 2010 @ 3:44pm
sheek said | February 23rd 2010 @ 3:44pm | Report comment
Much like the British Empire – Occasionally great men rise above the muck ‘n mire, to save the day!!!!!
Bit it seems Johnson is not one of those kind of men. Not as a coach/manager anyway…..
February 23rd 2010 @ 4:07pm
kingplaymaker said | February 23rd 2010 @ 4:07pm | Report comment
Have a look at this Sheek (not all of it!) and see if you think this guy has any idea what he’s doing. It’s ok for players to simply trot out a dirge of mindless clichés as they are just saying what they’re told too, but coaches are supposed to say what they think, and indeed are supposed to be capable of THINKING:
February 23rd 2010 @ 9:47am
Hammer said | February 23rd 2010 @ 9:47am | Report comment
The fact of the matter is he’s coming over as a player of some potential into a new team and into country that doesn’t have the player depth to cover 4 teams let alone a new 5th franchise …. the idea that he’s going to set the S15 alight is farcical
but this is pure overblown hyperbole … “Cipriani is a 24-carat genius, a staggeringly brilliant and blindingly fast playmaking outside half. There has rarely been a player in this position in the recent history of the game with such a mesmeric combination of spatial vision, astonishing pace and charmed hands. He is not simply a big talent, but as big talent as ever appears.” …
I’m often crictal of australian rugby fans of overhyping their players but that takes the cake on anything I’ve seen on this site to date … I’m sure if you took a poll of NH and SH rugby fans on who would be a the best potential 1st 5 acqusition currently doing the rounds in NH that Nick Evans would be streets ahead of Cipriani …
And Vatuvei ? … think Vainikolo with worse hands and defence
February 23rd 2010 @ 9:52am
kingplaymaker said | February 23rd 2010 @ 9:52am | Report comment
Hammer then who was the fly-half who annihilated every defence in England in the 2007-2008 season before reducing Ireland to rubble?
If you can’t see the man’s talent then that’s sad as you’ll be missing out.
Interesting that you say he has ‘potential’ while Rod Macqueen says he has ‘unlimited potential’.
Vatuvei is certainly a very able player whatever you say, and an awful lot younger than Vainikolo when he made his crossover.
February 23rd 2010 @ 10:13am
pothale said | February 23rd 2010 @ 10:13am | Report comment
“reducing Ireland to rubble”?
Hardly. He had one okay game for England against a patchwork Irish backline and yet you seem to be hoisting him on a pedestal way beyond his standing and performance in the game currently, and I suspect he wouldn’t thank you for it either.
Cipriani will have a chance to become good and possibly great down South – he ain’t done nothing yet.
February 23rd 2010 @ 10:19am
kingplaymaker said | February 23rd 2010 @ 10:19am | Report comment
No pothale, he smashed tham, it wasn’t an ‘ok’ game. Everyone agrees on that.
Plus you ignore the widespread destruction he wreaked throughout the rest of that season.
February 23rd 2010 @ 6:45pm
Pajovic said | February 23rd 2010 @ 6:45pm | Report comment
This is hilarious, did anyone see his performances in the Challenge cup for Wasps this season? Anyone watching any NH rugby can see he has no kicking game, won’t tackle and passing seems to be an unknown art. This is like some Stephen Jones (Times) article of hyperbolic proportions. The Irish team he ‘shredded’ were a collection of players, uninspired and disinterested with Eddie O Sullivan after a dire WC their lethargy was evident for all to see, yet this is the only game he gets mentioned in. Hardly a yard stick against which to measure. How about his performance against Aus, or SA?
Cipriani’s omission from the national team is as much due to his unpopularity among fellow England players as much as anything. His petulant spat with Mike Catt was verging on the ridiculous. Lewsey, a former Army officer, criticised Cipriani for missing a couple of tackles and the 20-year-old England No10 responded by telling him to ‘Shut up or be shut up’. The fact that Josh Lewsey felt compelled to deck him in a training session speaks volumes.
Everybody and everything is to blame for this guys demise, except Cipriani……… if you listen to cheerleaders like kingplaymaker. let’s face it. He’s obviously a gaping pain in the ar*e………..that’s running off to Australia in a strop. If he had been playing like Carter, Giteau or Sexton in the last 12 months, he would be in the England 15. But he didn’t so he isn’t.
King Playmaker…………..obviously has Danny Cipriani Posters on his bedroom wall, because objectivity has gone out the window.
February 24th 2010 @ 1:03am
kingplaymaker said | February 24th 2010 @ 1:03am | Report comment
No Pajovic, if you actually read the article and the responses you’ll say that every point you bring up has already been answered. Lewsey doubtless blindly believed the myth as you do too.
The Ireland team he crushed were perfectly good, as were all the premiership sides he destroyed that year.
I’ve gone in detail into his performances in the autumn if you’d bothered to read.
February 24th 2010 @ 1:08am
Wavell Wakefield said | February 24th 2010 @ 1:08am | Report comment
1. So Josh Lewsey punched Cipriani because he believed the Cipriani myth, and that is the sole reason?
2. The Ireland midfield contained Shane Horgan and Andrew Trimble. What positions do those two players play for their provinces?
February 24th 2010 @ 1:36am
Colin N said | February 24th 2010 @ 1:36am | Report comment
“I’ve gone in detail into his performances in the autumn if you’d bothered to read.”
You said:
“He didn’t play as well as he might, but was more hampered by the dreadful assembly of backs selected outside him who squandered every pearl of creativity cast at them and by the dire, confused overall performance of the team under its new management.”
Not really in detail, but also a massive understatement.
I agree he was rushed in too early. For that you can blame Johnson (although he was trying to get the youngsters in and mould a squad). However, he did play poorly and you can’t blame the outside backs for his performance. Sale’s backs have too been dreadful, but Hodgson has played well.
February 24th 2010 @ 1:54am
Pajovic said | February 24th 2010 @ 1:54am | Report comment
He is a confidence player and his confidence is completely shot, added to the fact he has lost a yard of pace with his ankle injury, I think he will possibly drift into obscurity now. such a shame when you consider that he has been earmarked for greatness since he was about 13 years old (for example Woodward had him training with the england squad when he was 16) even worse when you look at the young fly halves England are left with now – Solid and unspectacular Toby Flood or Stephen Myler or flaky bottle merchants like Shane Geraghty or Ryan Lamb. hence why Johnny is untouchable no matter how badly he plays
February 24th 2010 @ 3:46am
Pajovic said | February 24th 2010 @ 3:46am | Report comment
WW asked these questions. Please answer them ‘kingplaymaker’
1. So Josh Lewsey punched Cipriani because he believed the Cipriani myth, and that is the sole reason?
2. The Ireland midfield contained Shane Horgan and Andrew Trimble. What positions do those two players play for their provinces?
The Cipriani Myth…….sounds like the latest Dan Brown novel. Equally as fictitious too!
February 23rd 2010 @ 7:07pm
Pajovic said | February 23rd 2010 @ 7:07pm | Report comment
‘everyone agrees on that’
Well apparently not kingplaymaker………..
February 24th 2010 @ 1:45am
kingplaymaker said | February 24th 2010 @ 1:45am | Report comment
I was referring to the remarks I made when discussing the article, not the article itself Colin.
You certainly can blame the outside backs for his performance, as they made nothing ouf of the great positions he put them in,.
February 24th 2010 @ 2:00am
Colin N said | February 24th 2010 @ 2:00am | Report comment
What great positions?
Explain or show me some sort of evidence please. I can’t remember when he did any of that.
It was interesting watching those games in the Autumn as for some reason, he hardly ever ‘spin-passed’ the ball. That amongst the other things he did made it easy for the defence.
He did make two wonderful breaks, but with the first one he made, he should have passed inside (to I think Croft) and it would have been a try under the posts
February 24th 2010 @ 2:28am
kingplaymaker said | February 24th 2010 @ 2:28am | Report comment
Well Johnson has certainly torpedoed his confidence.
Wavell 1) Yes.
2) There was nothing wrong with that Irish midfield in defense.
February 24th 2010 @ 3:09am
Wavell Wakefield said | February 24th 2010 @ 3:09am | Report comment
1. You must play for London Wasps then, or know Josh Lewsey?
2. Who played in the Irish midfield and what positions do they currently play?
February 24th 2010 @ 3:27am
pothale said | February 24th 2010 @ 3:27am | Report comment
There was something wrong with that Irish midfield in defence – two wingers playing in the centre of the line – out of position for their clubs and most of their test matches. Why do you think that England were able to succeed so well – particularly in second half? Sackey, Tait and Noon were the ones who made the difference in crossing the try-line. Cipriani got his conversions and penalty kicks – as he should.
And if you’re assessing the game in making comments like he shredded defences linked to a substantial score margin, then you need to take account of the attacking and defensive capabilities of both sides. And who was making the inroads into the Irish backline, for example, here’s an extract from on-line commentary for the match:
” England are finding gaps in the Ireland defence – resulting in a try for Sackey in the corner. Sackey makes the initial hard yards and after drives from Flood, Lipman and Easter the ball finds its way to the Wasps wing for a try in the corner. Cipriani converts.”
He had a good debut by landing all his kicks. Good on him. It was the other players around him who made the points for him or scored themselves.
This myth that abounds how he defeated Ireland singlehandedly is just simply that – a myth. Egged on by the hype-laden English media at the time.
If you look at fans reactions following the match, they thought the hyping of him was overrated, and even Ashton felt compelled to balance the overreaction by ackowledging the contribution of the team to the win.
February 23rd 2010 @ 9:54am
Viscount Crouchback said | February 23rd 2010 @ 9:54am | Report comment
This article is hilarious. It’s like someone has decided to out-Jones Jones just for a laugh. I hate to burst your bubble, but here are a few pesky facts:
1. Cipriani is, contrary to your assertion, an extremely mercurial player. He can do very good things and very bad things. Check out his debut England appearance away to Italy where he attempted a chip on his own 22 and promptly handed Italy a try. The Spencer/Michalak comparisons are fair.
2. Johnson doesn’t have a problem with “playboys”. Ben Foden, who has a pop star girlfriend and frequently appears in the papers, continues to be picked by Johnson for the Elite Player Squad. Johnson has a problem with mentally fragile loners who alienate team-mates and go missing when the going gets tough.
3. You need to remember that everything you’ve read about Cipriani, both good and bad, is exaggerated by a factor of 10 because: a) He’s young and handsome and attached to a famous “actress”; and b) It’s written by the UK press – the kings of moronic hyperbole.
If Stephen Brett (a fairly similar player in many ways) was English, then he’d have been subjected to the same hype machine and you’d probably be writing enthusiastic articles about him. But he’s a Kiwi – and Kiwis judge their rugby carefully – so you’re not.
February 23rd 2010 @ 10:13am
kingplaymaker said | February 23rd 2010 @ 10:13am | Report comment
Viscount what on earth does this article have to do with Jones?
1. He is not Mercurial. As long as he has a boss who gives him confidence rather than sucks it away, he plays consistently well. As for that charge-down, did you notice those were his very first minutes on an international rugby field? That’s newcomers’ nerves, not being mercurial.
2. Ben Foden is nothing like on the same scale as a media figure as Cipriani, and has far less talent. No one cares who his girlfriend is because he isn’t a great prospect like Cipriani.
3. You’re right there: the press love to create the image of a wayward, decadent playboy with a glamourous lifestyle but always in trouble with his straight-laced boss. The fact it isn’t at all true doesn’t trouble them.
I actually am not that interested in Cipriani and have no desire at all to hype him, but I recognise his staggering ability as it’s a pure, cold fact.