Who will play open-side for Wallabies in 2011?
Roar Pro
By Chris McKay, 25 Feb 2010 The Crowd is a Roar Pro
- Tagged:
- David Pocock, robbie deans, Rugby Union, RWC, wallabies
It’s hard to argue that Robbie Deans is not the master of change. Seven Super rugby titles is evidence enough. Dean’s first two seasons at the Wallabies have not been as successful as we all might have hoped, but he has developed a wealth of talent that will hopefully be paying dividends come 2011 RWC.
Deans appears to be excited about the changes to the interpretations at the breakdown, which will carry on into the Tri-Nations (and hopefully the RWC).
What has been evidently clear from the opening two rounds is that the advantage is definitely on the attacking team and so far the use of genuine open-side scavengers has been limited.
I don’t think I have seen any counter-rucking in a game yet and very few penalties for players not releasing the ball.
McCaw has not played a game yet, but his all round game will keep him right at the forefront of the world’s best players.
The best coaches adapt to change and it will be interesting to see who Deans picks at 7 this year.
Pocock is clearly the front runner and is a quality player, but he is a specialist scavenger and what the game probably needs is (slightly larger) link player. Pocock is only 184cm tall and is yet to show that he has the all round skills of the likes of McCaw or George Smith.
A few years back Connolly had Heenan and Elsom on the flanks and Smith at 8. It might be time to revisit this strategy and have a bigger man at 7.
There are a few contenders who could play at open-side that would give Australia an edge in link-play, attack and set-piece (line-out and re-starts):
Ben Mowen – 195cm, 106kg: had an exceptional year last year and appears to be carrying that form into 2010. Great link player that plays his heart out.
Richard Brown – 189cm, 103kg: played 7 at Wests during his club rugby days in Brisbane. Can play 6 and 8, so probably a good bench option. Has excellent all-round game and can scavenge.
Stephen Hoiles - 1.90cm, 101kg: under-rated player who is close to the best link player in Australia. Offers plenty at set piece and has exceptional mobility.
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- Explore:
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katzilla said | February 25th 2010 @ 4:08am | Report comment
Chris I think the smaller faster opensides will still have a part to play defensively in getting quickly into the faces of opposition backs and stopping them before the gain line.
Bigger slower loose forwards could be exploited in the 1st channel by the Carters and Coopers.
I don’t think Australia has enough world class loose forwards for Pocock not to have first go at the 7 come next year, even if the larger loose forward base was the plan.
Sam Taulelei said | February 25th 2010 @ 7:15am | Report comment
Chris
You may not have seen any counter-rucking so far but I’ve seen several examples in most games I’ve watched. I agree however there have been fewer penalties for players not releasing the ball once tackled to the ground. I think it’s too early to judge what effect the referees priorities with ruling the breakdown will have on the openside flankers role or the type of player.
The better teams and players will work out how to adapt and exploit the interpretations. Under the ELV’s many thought along similar lines and that SA would be the most affected because of their penchant for selecting tall, ball running loose forwards and not the traditional fetcher. SA were still competitive and it was only the rise of Brussow and the injury to Burger that brought about any change to their selection preferences.
formeropenside said | February 25th 2010 @ 7:47am | Report comment
Hoiles? Well I suppose he might be a 7, he’s certainly not an 8. He seems like a back trapped in a forward’s body.
TPN to openside actually makes more sense under the new laws than it did under the recent fetcher friendly experiment. That might be worth a shot.
Brett McKay said | February 25th 2010 @ 8:24am | Report comment
I’ll throw Matt Hodgson up as an option, and I understand he’s switched from 6 to 7 for the Force while The Roar’s Own David Pocock is out.
But I also agree with Katz ad Sam T above, there’s still a place for the smaller “fetcher” type 7 with these new interpretations. I also saw plenty of counter rucking over the weekend, and the better defencive etams are able to work out when to hold off, and when to attack the ruck and force the turnover..
ohtani's jacket said | February 25th 2010 @ 10:10am | Report comment
First of all, Deans coached the Crusaders to five Super rugby titles not seven.
Secondly, how often do you actually see an openside pilfer the ball? It’s nowhere near as common as people make out. Counter rucking has been far more prevalent in recent seasons; it’s just a matter of how legal it’s been. If the number of tackles increase, then you’ll still need an openside flanker who’s a strong tackler and if the speed of the game increases you’ll need more of an old-school tearaway. I think the new interpretations will have more of an effect on nuisance players like Adam Thomson or Rodney So’oialo who are always in the thick of collapsed rucks.
Ben C said | February 25th 2010 @ 2:36pm | Report comment
Indeed. Waugh is a “pest” openside rather than a pure fetcher or a link player and is already struggling.
Braid always struck me as more a link player than an out and out fetcher and may thrive.
It will be interesting to see how Richie fares as he is one of the few who can play as a pest or a fetcher or occasionally a link player as the situation demands.
David said | February 25th 2010 @ 11:48am | Report comment
OJ
While not as common as it used to be maybe 5 or 6 seasons ago, old-style pilfering at the breakdown still happens (at least until 2010).
Most vivid in my mind is the Aus v Wales test last year where Pocock snatched 5 or six turnovers (on his feet, over the ball after making the tackle) in the first half and the GS the same in the second. In almost all cases it turned defence into attack.
There certainly has been less of it this season so far.
For years I’ve gone away from Wallabies v NZ tests disappointed that GS couldn’t have a bigger impact at the breakdown (whereas McCaw did), mainly in my opinion because GS gets smashed and cleaned out so effectively by the Blacks, while our guys just aren’t there fast enough to deal with Richie.
ohtani's jacket said | February 25th 2010 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
In terms of what Pocock was doing last year (and the types of turnovers Brussow and Spies were creating in tandem), a lot will depend on how the referees interpret the “other player” section of the tackle law. It’s pretty clear that roll away means roll away and that we won’t see too many turnovers by the tackler, it remains to be seen whether other players can turn the ball over in situations where the ball carrier is isolated. I imagine that it’s still possible, but theoretically these new interpetations will change the way sides attack.
I think we’re going to see less players running away from their support, off on their own midfield breaks with no one to pass to, because now it’s far easier to get over the advantage line. I’m not sure if this will lead to the return of phase play. I’ve seen a few turnovers this season from sides that weren’t making any ground from their phase play and where a forward ended up getting himself isolated. If these interpretations persist, then moving forward with quick ruck ball will be paramount and if that leads to the return of strong running forwards then that’s a pleasing aspect.
Personally, I think goal line defence is going to be the big issue as opposed to fetching. This is an area where the All Blacks have excelled in recent seasons illegally or otherwise and I wonder how you can shut a team down now. I thought it was interesting how easily the Hurricanes barrelled over for tries in front of the posts against the Force when last year that side would waste multiple phases trying to crash over the line and failed more often than not.
This post was all over the show, but I think the dust will really start flying if there’s a 56-32 scoreline in a Tri-Nations Test or something like that.
Brett McKay said | February 25th 2010 @ 3:16pm | Report comment
OJ, already it’s emerged that the old pick and drive is back though, and I know the Bulls got past 15 phases at one point last weekend against the Brumbies. Early days obviously, and well see how it plays out over the course of the S14..
Worlds Biggest said | February 25th 2010 @ 12:52pm | Report comment
I hope Pocock is the starting 7 in 2011 or we are in a bit of trouble. The fetcher role will be relavant in Test Rugby still. Daniel Hennan ?. He played about 2 Tests in his injury shortened career so don’t know how his name came up here. Ben Mowen has some go about him but needs more bulk. Ditto Hoiles who I like as a player however what is his position. Richard Brown is a grinder and solid at best, gives away a lot of silly penalties. Chris, where is the wealth of talent at 2nd Row and Wing. We are weak in these area’s.
mattamkII said | February 25th 2010 @ 4:24pm | Report comment
Hennan is still playing – saw him in a Tokyo pub last Friday.
AndyS said | February 25th 2010 @ 4:36pm | Report comment
What I’d expect to see is that 7′s will aim to be first player at the tackle, but uninvolved in the tackle. They tend to be big physical units, so I wouldn’t even be surprised to see them arrive and use their bodies to assist the primary tackler, but with their hands clearly held out until the player goes to ground such that they can then immediately compete for the ball. Or something else, but players will definitely be looking for ways and means to pilfer….supply and demand – if it is hard to do, anyone that can manage it becomes gold.
mattamkII said | February 25th 2010 @ 4:45pm | Report comment
Andy, but technically as soon as support players arrive for the ball carrier this number 7 will not be able to play the ball – ruck formed and he was not the tackler.
Now, some refs let em get away with it even now but technically its wrong.
reds fan said | February 25th 2010 @ 4:52pm | Report comment
No they can still use their hands after the ruck is formed. Law 16.4 (b) Players must not handle the ball in the ruck except after a tackle if they are on their feet and have their hands on the ball before the ruck is formed.
It use to be that once the ruck formed you had to let go. But last year they took this Law as it stands and if you grabbed the ball before the ruck was formed you could continue to do so even after one formed. I believe that is still the case this year.
AndyS said | February 25th 2010 @ 5:01pm | Report comment
Indeed, so the new goal for a pilfering 7 will be to be there the moment a tackled player goes to ground and then pounce. From the tackled players point of view, the trick would be to try and stay upright, either to offload to support OR to force the waiting pilferer to engage in the tackle, with the delay created while he releases the tackle then competes for the ball allowing an extra second for support to arrive and create the ruck.
reds fan said | February 25th 2010 @ 7:57pm | Report comment
Yes. The one thing the 7 who is waiting to pounce has to be careful of, is letting the tackled player release. he cant be waiting with his hands all around the ball. The tackled player must release (place it in any direction or push it backwards) under the laws and must also be allowed to release.
ohtani's jacket said | February 25th 2010 @ 7:27pm | Report comment
I can’t envision too many situations under these new interpretations where the defence will have time to pull this off before a ruck is formed. Right now, sides are running the ball back from deep in their own half because they’re no longer afraid of being trapped and isolated. If you take away the tackler’s rights to the ball, then the attacking player would have to be completely isolated from his players for a turnover to take effect in open play. I think it can still occur closer in if the attacking side take a poor option from the previous ruck, but if you ask me the South Africans might be onto something with their dislodging of the ball and strips. Swooping on loose ball may become a big part of counter attacking.
While debating this, I think it’s important to decide whether you want turnovers or penalties, because nine times out of ten if the defender is on his feet with rights to the ball, the tackled player won’t release and a penalty will be blown. The ensuing penalty is a turnover, but I’m not sure that it’s the type of turnover a lot of us would like to see where defence is turned into attack.
reds fan said | February 26th 2010 @ 9:54am | Report comment
I agree. The time required for a tackler to pilfer cleanly will only happen if you get a player who is truly isolated. And then the tackled player will probably push it backwards quite some distance so that the man standing over him cant get it easily, or hang on and incur a pen.
I’m waiting to see which 7 is the first to get the timing right on following a “tackle” and being first to get hands on prior to a ruck forming. In past years they normally were involved in the tackle in some way and kept hands “around” the ball as they got to their feet and then really starting playing it with their hands once on their feet. Now they are getting pinned for not allowing the tackled player the opportunity to release.
In the Reds v Crusaders, there was a pen given to the Reds where it looked like the Reds player was isolated and the Crusader player had pilfered cleanly. But the Crusader tackler was laying in the way and the Reds player was unable to release/push the ball backwards. So a 7 might get his timing right but he’ll also need his teammates to do the right thing and roll away.
Sam Taulelei said | February 26th 2010 @ 7:18am | Report comment
Good luck to any referee in ruling that law accurately throughout a game. Player enters breakdown, referee has to watch and assess:
1. Did you enter through the gate
2. Are you on your feet
3. Were your hands on the ball before the ruck was formed
4. Were you the tackler or second tackler, released the ball carrier and roll away.
All this in a split second, aaarrrgggghhhhh.
Hurricanes flanker Karl Lowe made an interesting comment ahead of this weekends game against the Lions. His objective as the tackler now is to leave the ball alone, get to his feet and then go through the ruck. The referees will reward good technique and once you go through the gate then everyone else can follow and the more guys there the better to isolate the ball carrier and effect the turnover with a counter ruck.
ohtani's jacket said | February 26th 2010 @ 12:06pm | Report comment
Lowe seems spot on to me. I don’t think it’s such a bad thing if it leads to greater continuity in attack and cleaner turnovers at the ruck. I’m eager to see how it plays out in a top level clash.
Sam Taulelei said | February 26th 2010 @ 11:07pm | Report comment
Well there was evidence in tonights game between the Crusaders and Sharks of tacklers getting to their feet and continuing to go through the opposition ruck from both sides. If this is the beginning of a trend then we’ll probably see more forwards flooding the breakdown in attack and defence which should create more space for the backs if they haven’t otherwise been caught up in the ruck themselves. I’ve always preferred it when NZ forwards run together in groups and use short hand to hand passes to get behind the defence. It’s the perfect attacking platform for backs to use.
Strong defence from both sides and good movement of the ball with forwards on both teams looking to offload in the tackle, scoreline didn’t reflect how competitive the Sharks were.
I agree OJ that it will be very difficult for teams to defend from their goalline against a pick and go or out wide under these interpretations.