Getting the call right for better rugby scrums
Roar Guru By Mick Gold Coast QLD, 2 Mar 2010 Mick Gold Coast QLD is a Roar Guru
- Tagged:
- referees, Rugby Union, scrum engagement, Super Rugby, Waratahs
New Wallabies prop Ben Alexander (right) with Stephen Moore (centre) and Al Baxter practice their scrum setting during a training session at Manly Oval, Sydney, Thursday, June 5, 2008. The Wallabies will play Ireland in Melbourne on June 14, 2008. AAP Image/Dean Lewins
After watching five matches this weekend, I saw a real muck up by the referees as they call “Crouch, touch, pause, engage”. This alone led to unnecessary and avoidable penalties. My solution is to dispense with “Pause”.
My adult son independently saw the same problem (both former front rowers, with the younger being eminently more talented than the elder).
In each of the matches, numerous scrums produced penalties, some announced as “early engagement”, which I believe is a result of too long a delay between “Touch” and “Engage”.
Marius Jonker, I think, actually apologised for his slow call at one stage. In his match, one of the Pretoria front rowers had sufficient time to touch twice, several times. I think he was doing that to maintain balance.
There is nearly a ton of weight in each pack bound and ready to go forward and the referees expect them to be able to hold their natural momentum for too long.
A reason individual packs bind finally only just before the engagement is to harness and exert the power just in time, without becoming unbalanced – once bound it is impossible for the front row to hold back the back 5 (who cannot see the precise moment) for any extended period.
And it is impossible to maintain balance whilst waiting. In these circumstances, the law or practice focusing on safety increases the danger of a collapse under pressure.
Effective engagement is both more likely to succeed and to be safe, if it is allowed to occur under the natural momentum and at the exact point when balance and control is at its peak moment.
That moment is immediately after “Touch”.
I reckon they need to develop a call that sounds as “Crouch, Touch-Engage” with the second word rolling straight into the third. “Crouch” and “Touch” achieves the focused moment to achieve stability in each pack – the need for safety is served.
I have a theory that the sound of “Engage” commencing with a “soft” vowel is part of the problem, being less audible than a word starting with a “hard” consonant. But that’s probably being a bit scientific for a slow former open side prop like me.
Apart from this single criticism, I cannot remember a season start that has so pleased me, even the much improved play of the perennial disappointers, NSW. The quality and pace of the rugby is excellent.
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- referees, Rugby Union, scrum engagement, Super Rugby, Waratahs
March 2nd 2010 @ 2:46pm
Spiro Zavos said | March 2nd 2010 @ 2:46pm | Report comment
I would endorse Brett McKay’s suggestion of substituting PACK for EN-GAGE, but use SCRUM rather than PACK.
In fact I explained the theory to John O’Neill last year that EN-GAGE was a stupid word to use as the contact word because it was two syllables and that teams were being penalised for going early on the EN sound.
He told me last year that he’d raised the issue with the IRB and that Paddy O’Brien was interested in using SCRUM as the contact word. Nothing has happened. Packs still get penalised for going on the EN sound and there are re-sets, although fewer than last year.
This brings me to another point. The jerseys used by modern teams make it very hard for props to get a grip on their opposite’s sleeve. Props should be forced to wear a looser fitting sleeve and jersey to allow a grip to be made easily.
There were very few scrum collapses before the days of the stream-lined jerseys.
This year, too, the referees have slowed down their calls. This seems to have helped, as well.
But they are still allowing halfbacks to refrain from feeding the scrum if their side doesn’t get a good hit. Penalise these halfbacks immediately and this nonsense will stop.
March 2nd 2010 @ 2:56pm
reds fan said | March 2nd 2010 @ 2:56pm | Report comment
If props want to wear tight tops their jersey should have a cloth handle attached for the opposing prop to grab. al baxter would have loved em. might have have saved him from eating so much grass.
March 2nd 2010 @ 8:55pm
pothale said | March 2nd 2010 @ 8:55pm | Report comment
1000% agree with Spiro on the half-back behaviour. If I see another SH, including Tomas O’Leary, looking at the ref perplexed and faux disappointed that they haven’t got a scrum to feed the ball into, I’m gonna throw a tantrum. Or a shoe. Or something.
Not my beer though.
March 2nd 2010 @ 9:01pm
Wavell Wakefield said | March 2nd 2010 @ 9:01pm | Report comment
‘But they are still allowing halfbacks to refrain from feeding the scrum if their side doesn’t get a good hit. Penalise these halfbacks immediately and this nonsense will stop.’
That is spot on. That drives me absolutely potty.
Also, why are there still no straight feeds? The refs ignored that directive pretty quickly. Just who is running the game?
March 2nd 2010 @ 11:41pm
jeznez said | March 2nd 2010 @ 11:41pm | Report comment
interesting one Spiro, never played in a skin tight jersey but what your saying sounds logical in getting a grip. I never collapsed a scrum because I couldn’t get a grip though – and indeed you’ll often see a sneaky illegal hand go to ground to prevent a scrum collapse while allowing lower body height
March 3rd 2010 @ 12:04am
rugbyfuture said | March 3rd 2010 @ 12:04am | Report comment
id agree with spiro there. i remember one game i played against st stani’s and coz they were all gung ho with rugby they were wearing new age jerseys and we couldnt get a grip on the opposing prop. made our scrums look terrible considering we had loose fitting old cotton jerseys they were grabbing easily
March 3rd 2010 @ 10:48pm
Mick Gold Coast QLD said | March 3rd 2010 @ 10:48pm | Report comment
Spiro,
I appreciate you taking the time to read, consider and add to my thoughts about scrums – it is gratifying to stand in thoughtful conversation with a man I have read for decades, as one of the most expert rugby writers.
In 40 adult years I have found front row play is a rare, lifelong passion shared by those who have been there; and that there is invariably a ready friendliness and respect amongst us when we meet by chance – the Once-were-Front-Rowers Club indeed exists.
I most recently experienced that in your Wellington, at a pub after the last Bledisloe yarning with several Cantabrians (including some of the estimable Todd Blackadder’s staff), when my adult son and I went over there to indulge our shared passion.
I did enjoy Wellington – the people are reserved, respectful and direct and, to a town planner, the city has an interesting commerce / geographic history and architecture which reflects that. Crazy Horse Steak House Restaurant is world class.
March 4th 2010 @ 10:12am
yourmatesam said | March 4th 2010 @ 10:12am | Report comment
isn’t crazy horse a strip joint??
March 5th 2010 @ 10:27am
Mick Gold Coast QLD said | March 5th 2010 @ 10:27am | Report comment
Not over there.
March 2nd 2010 @ 5:25pm
mattamkII said | March 2nd 2010 @ 5:25pm | Report comment
Reds Fan…Baxter was illegally beaten in one game and refs ever since have been bluffed and blinded by reputation.
Again you could see this on Saturday night when the scrum had been pretty stable all night until Steenkamp started to pull it down to milk a penalty due to field position…..it was clearly Steenkamp pulling it down but once again the Ref saw Al’s face and warned him which effectively depowered the Tahs scrum – Al was subed ASAP.
March 2nd 2010 @ 9:05pm
Wavell Wakefield said | March 2nd 2010 @ 9:05pm | Report comment
Undoubtedly Baxter has improved a lot over the past two seasons, and Steenkamp is generally an illegal scrummager, however it is somewhat OTT to state that he simply had one bad game and then a reputation followed. Baxter has generally been an illegal scrummager throughout his career: constantly missing his bind, collapsing or pulling the scrum down. Even against England two seasons ago despite the fact that the Australian scrum had the advantage he still dropped scrums and missed binds.
March 2nd 2010 @ 11:45pm
jeznez said | March 2nd 2010 @ 11:45pm | Report comment
Al has improved but then Woodcock conned the refs in the last try nations and ended his international season. Why it hasn’t ended his Super career has upset me. the guy seems a lovely bloke and tried his best for a long time but unfortunately his current form is tarnished by his past reputation meaning opponents can pull the wool over uneducated referee’s eyes. despite his improvement I’d like to see the younger tahs tightheads especally Dan Palmer who really looked the goods in his debut against the highlanders last year brought on to see if we can have a few options going around before the WC next year
March 2nd 2010 @ 5:30pm
elbusto said | March 2nd 2010 @ 5:30pm | Report comment
As a front rower of 30 years experience under old and new laws I can assure you these rules are an abomination. The problem is the ‘pause’ and ‘engage’ – the players are being held back and lose their balance – the connect is unnatural and down they go.
To make matters worse referees stand in the scrum calling the players and walk out as they call ‘engage’ which destroys the props balance and preparation.
The 90 degree rule is a joke as well with some Teams deliberately pulling the other side askew backwards to get the feed – the lower the grade the easier it is to cheat.
The solution probably is to get rid of ‘pause’ and for the referees to be well clear of the scrum before they start the call.
It will never be perfect but something has to happen.
March 2nd 2010 @ 5:30pm
AndyS said | March 2nd 2010 @ 5:30pm | Report comment
I was wondering what happened to Paddy O’Brien’s memo of a couple of years ago that included “The Referee may then call TOUCH PAUSE Simultaneously.” because “There is concern about the amount of time the referees are holding teams in a crouch position and then the delay in calling the other 3 phases.”
http://tightheads.com/news/article.asp?id=3740
Maybe it went the way of paying attention to straightness of the feed, which was also mandated….
March 3rd 2010 @ 10:53pm
Mick Gold Coast QLD said | March 3rd 2010 @ 10:53pm | Report comment
I read that, AndyS, thank you.
It is a bit frustrating when part of the solution already exists but is ignored.
March 2nd 2010 @ 5:33pm
mattamkII said | March 2nd 2010 @ 5:33pm | Report comment
Hoy, you are right but sadly refs have no idea what is going on at scrum time…which is amazing given its not that hard. I cant count the amount of times I have been handed a penalty only to here the giggle of the other prop knowing the ref had it wrong…
PS – In my most recent two games the ref has 100% baffled me with the following comments.
1) “there is no rule that their tight head has to take the weight after the engage! its up to you not to lean to hard until the ball comes in”
2) “the tight head standing up once your drive comes on is not illegal….”
Now, can someone help me? Has there been rules changes recently I don’t know of?
March 2nd 2010 @ 11:51pm
jeznez said | March 2nd 2010 @ 11:51pm | Report comment
matt, you and elbusto are on the money. I’ve always laughed with my opponents when the ref got a penalty wrong and then come back next scrum to hit him even harder and try something more dastardly. the rules haven’t changed but the refs have no clue.
Don’t you hate it when you drive a scrum through 180 degrees and you still don’t get the feed. Refs are clearly not even trying to understand what goes into scrummaging to detect the cause of penalties when they won’t even bother to learn the rules or call them in any way like they are written.
Its an attitude thing, scrums are seen by many ref’s as merely a restart rather than a key contest
March 2nd 2010 @ 5:45pm
Working Class Rugger said | March 2nd 2010 @ 5:45pm | Report comment
Personally each and every referee should have to go to ‘Scrum School’ to learn exactly how difficult it is to pack into a scrum. The angles, the pressures , the technique and the timing involved. Once they understand that its not just a reason for forward to have a break they might actually sort the engagement issue regarding the intial hit in the scrum. Could even help then see the bloody obvious and penalise the right player’s at scrum time. Until something along these lines is done unless a ref is actually an ex- Prop and from the physique’s of our current officials they clearly weren’t the inconsistencies will continue.
March 2nd 2010 @ 6:02pm
elbusto said | March 2nd 2010 @ 6:02pm | Report comment
I agree!!!!!!! Thin little men haniing around a scrum with a whistle worry me greatly!!!!!!
March 3rd 2010 @ 5:57am
Drew B said | March 3rd 2010 @ 5:57am | Report comment
I’ve tried scrum schools. Do you know how hard it is, as a ref, to have a prop tell you what goes on in a scrum? Props are so caught up in their ‘dark arts’, and they know that most of what they do is illegal, that every one of these sessions I’ve been to has been a farce. They don’t tell or show you anything! They want to be able to winge at the ref, but not help in case they get caught out themselves.
March 3rd 2010 @ 10:58pm
Mick Gold Coast QLD said | March 3rd 2010 @ 10:58pm | Report comment
Aaaah, Drew B – and what is wrong with that?!
I heard Phil Kearns say in commentary a couple of years back, to the effect “Look at xxx walking back from the scrum penalty – he doesn’t like it. They issue a hand mirror to all front rowers so they can practice and perfect that puzzled shake of the head, you know.”
March 2nd 2010 @ 6:03pm
AndyS said | March 2nd 2010 @ 6:03pm | Report comment
Just a stray thought – dedicated assistant referee for scrums, fully trained and experienced in the iniquities of the dark places?
March 2nd 2010 @ 11:53pm
jeznez said | March 2nd 2010 @ 11:53pm | Report comment
ex-props won’t do it, you’d need two – so one could stand on each side and check what was happening and if you have two props we’d rather sit in the stands, drink a few beers, eat a few pies, tell lies about how good we used to be and laugh at the bloke with the pea who has no idea what is going on. I like the idea of making refs practice scrummaging so that they can learn what is happening though
March 3rd 2010 @ 4:52pm
Working Class Rugger said | March 3rd 2010 @ 4:52pm | Report comment
jeznez
That’s sort of idea I was trying to get across. DrewB seems to have missed the point about scrum school. They need to experience of actually packing down and the timing involved. Frankly, his attitude toward his experiences tend to be of the same sentiment of any ref who thinks they understand the set piece.
March 4th 2010 @ 1:19am
jeznez said | March 4th 2010 @ 1:19am | Report comment
I know that’s where you were going WCR and DrewB did miss it. I can completely understand his frustration that a scrummaging school for referees watching scrums pack would keep everything in the dark though.
DrewB were these sessions conducted with current high grade players that you were likely to be reffing during the season? Kind of hard for them to give themselves up in that circumstance don’t you think?
You’d need top level refs having sessions with highly seasoned front rowers who are never going to play those higher levels again. In that situation where the guys giving the demo know that they’ll be watching rep players refereed to what they show you might get a better result.
Even better is WCR’s idea, you could get top scrum coaches like the Kiwi Mick Cronn to conduct scrummaging sessions where the ref’s themselves pack down, it could be done safely. You would again have to balance the issue of asking a professional to give away his secrets to the regulator.
March 3rd 2010 @ 1:30am
mattamkII said | March 3rd 2010 @ 1:30am | Report comment
Jez – Yes but I also cant understand how refs dont know the difference between an illegal wheel and a proper drive through 90 degrees. Nothing worse than playing TH when the ref just lets their loose head just come around the corner while their number 8 just pulls the pack around to the left.
Ah and my favorite ref call. Your put-in 15 yards out and mid field…your pack had been pushing em all day…scrum goes down and the ref gives the other mob a penalty….can they not think things through.
March 4th 2010 @ 1:24am
jeznez said | March 4th 2010 @ 1:24am | Report comment
I know both those pains all too well.
Am taking advantageof it with the guys I’m coaching at the moment. Have three novices who all debuted as props this year. We actually have a scrum call of Give and when we call it we retreat on the right hand side, I cannot believe that not one referee has picked up on it and we pick up four or five scrum reversal of feeds per game.
What I have my guys doing is utterly illegfal but if the refs don’t notice……. I keep waiting for the opposing tighthead to just stand his ground and let our guy pull away – its what I’d be doing.
March 4th 2010 @ 10:01pm
Mick Gold Coast QLD said | March 4th 2010 @ 10:01pm | Report comment
I am delighted, jeznez, that you are passing on the crafty skills of the dark art to a new generation of front rowers! Reminds me of days long gone for me.
I like John Smit’s skill in ever so subtly falling off, and getting away with it. Woodcock too.
As to mattamkII’s comment on the No 8′s – I have long watched and admired those who can bring this maneuver off well – it cannot be an easy task to steer that mass quickly and accurately. Rodney So’oialo and Jerry Collins (Collins got better and better as time passed) are good exponents, and I’ve seen Taine Randell on the few occassions he played there doing a pretty good job of it.
Good on you for being involved in coaching the young blokes – I spent many rewarding years quietly strapping, zambucking and running on the oranges; seeing up close the great work of modern coaches and watching boys who knew little develop into confident young men. I come across them 15-20 years later and am reminded one cannot underestimate the positive impact one can have on the young ones.
March 5th 2010 @ 1:07am
jeznez said | March 5th 2010 @ 1:07am | Report comment
cheers Mick, its my first year of it and I’m having a ball. The boys (I coach a grade side) are learning a few songs when we share a post match beer as well.
March 3rd 2010 @ 2:47pm
AiDoc said | March 3rd 2010 @ 2:47pm | Report comment
Last year I would have agreed with you that the referees were the problem. However I now have a deeper understanding. The referees deliberately change the rhythm to avoid the crazy charges that can lead to injuries and collapsed scrums. The teams cannot anticipate the engage and must wait for the referee’s call. I noticed last weekend that some referees gave up and called engage as the scrums engaged.
March 4th 2010 @ 1:29am
jeznez said | March 4th 2010 @ 1:29am | Report comment
AiDoc, you are right about some referee’s giving up. The Waratahs v Stormers was a classic, both packs went on the pause all day. I can’t agree with you that the rythym change is a good idea. I understand that the IRB want scrum engagements to be gentler but that is why the touch came in, it was brought in to bring scrums closer together so they could not build up so much momentum. If packs start ignoring referees because there is no consistency to the call and the referees allow them to do it then that cannot be a good thing.
March 5th 2010 @ 12:03pm
mattamkII said | March 5th 2010 @ 12:03pm | Report comment
Yep, changing the rhythm is actually more dangerous!
As I have said above..as a prop at club level you might have 3 or 4 different locks pushing behind you over the space of a game, a rookie hooker might come on or an old flanker that hasnt played in years… times this by 2 given there are two teams out there and it opens up a lot of potential early/miss hits.