ARU must manage league converts wisely
By kingplaymaker, 13 Apr 2010 kingplaymaker is a Roar Guru
- Tagged:
- ARU, Australian rugby, Israel Folau, Johnathan Thurston, NRL, Rugby League, rugby uniom, Timana Tahu
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The Waratahs' Timana Tahu runs in to score as he's tackled by the Reds' Mark McLinden during their Super 14 match at the Sydney Football Stadium, Sydney, Friday, March 6, 2009. AAP Image/Dean Lewins
It’s that time of year again and the media is awash with rumours that two of rugby league’s ‘stars’ may be moving to union. This time the main candidates are Israel Folau and Johnathan Thurston.
Between them, they exemplify the issues surrounding the wisdom of converting league players and the ARU’s policy towards them.
The ARU used to fund league conversions partly to promote its own game at the expense of the rival NRL, and partly to try and strengthen the Wallabies.
A number of problems arose, however, and the final straw was reached when Timana Tahu returned to league prematurely after a vast amount of money had been sunk converting him.
The ARU justifiably reasoned that it’s not worth shelling out huge sums when a player may simply run away the moment the going gets a little tough, as Tahu did.
So we now hear of the incentive-based contract, with the idea that large quantities of money will only be paid out to such players when they have proved they can convert successfully and improve the Wallabies.
There is undoubtedly a point here, but is the main purpose of league conversion to improve the Wallabies?
Isn’t it far more to strike a blow at the NRL, and bring new fans and interest to union?
Shouldn’t the ARU worry less about the impact these players have on international rugby and more what they can do to sell the code?
So wouldn’t it be wiser, rather than abandoning conversion altogther, to manage the conversion of league players better so that they could provide this useful promotion function?
The main problem with league conversions has simply been how they were managed, and if this were resolved, there would be no reason for failure.
The ARU’s policy is nonetheless wise in avoiding spending money on players who may waltz off when things are a little rough, but if these three principles are followed, too, then players could still be brought over without risk and with far less chance of failure:
1. To get players young. They adapt far better and are more committed, as the example of Lote Tuqiri shows. He converted in his early twenties, while Wendell Sailor and Mat Rogers moved over in their late twenties, and was far more successful than them.
2. To insist that the Super teams play them. The only way for league converts to learn the game is to be thrust repeatedly into match situations. Naturally this means the team will have an ineffective player for a while, even a liability, but it’s the only way for them to learn.
The case of the ARU pouring thousands into Tahu while the Waratahs kept him on the bench is absurd. There are numerous examples in England of players returning to league simply because they were not given a chance to play and learn the game (Chev Walker, Karl Pryce).
Any ARU-funded contract should come with a clause insisting the Super teams use the player in every match. If the franchise in question doesn’t like it, then the ARU can choose a franchise which does.
3. Don’t let them waltz off.
Many league players, more in England than Australia, have simply backed out the moment the conversion became challenging or even before and have been allowed to do so (Chev Walker, Karl Pryce again).
In the recent case of Lee Smith in England he had only been around for four months. The answer is that league converts should be forced to see out their contracts.
The deal is that a large amount of money is spent converting them, which means the team has to put up with a mediocre player for half a season, and so when they have learnt the game they have a duty to do some playing.
There are further points to consider at the stage of player acquisition, as the converts come in different types.
To look at the cases in hand: in Folau and Thurston we have an example of a player who should be lured and one who apparently shouldn’t, or at least not directly.
Folau is 20, Thurston is 26.
In addition, Folau is a wing, a position where Australian rugby has almost no quality aside from Digby Ioane. Thurston would be a fly-half, where Australian rugby has no end of quality: Giteau, Barnes, Cooper, and Beale.
So Folau is an ideal candidate to be pursued now, but does this mean Thurston should simply be ignored, told to stay in the NRL?
Not at all.
There is an alternative route for a player like Thurston to move to rugby, and rather than childishly abusing him for trying to convert, the ARU should advise him to move abroad and smooth his path to doing so.
He should go to France, learn the game at the level of pay he desires, and can then return in two years as an experienced union player to convince them of his value. The ARU should do as much as possible to help these players get abroad and might usefully try to persuade the French clubs of their value.
There’s no reason not to pursue Folau directly at the moment though, and in the future league players should be divided into these two categories:
1. Young players (Inglis, Hayne, Folau) who can be brought directly over to the Super 15.
2. Older players (Slater, Thurston, Marshall) who should be advised to go to France, learn the game, and then come back when they have proved they can convert. They are too much of a risk to justify the cost of bringing them to the Super 15 directly.
In this way the ARU can have all the players it wants, some directly, some through France.
If the players are divided in these ways, while the conditions are met whereby Super teams are forced to play ARU-funded converts and the converts in turn are not allowed to run away, then there’s no reason why league conversion could not be a success. The ARU must simply manage them better than it has done in the past.
The idea that league conversion is to strengthen the Wallabies should be forgotten however. It is to attract interest to the game, and to a lesser extent to improve the quality of Super teams.
There is no reason not to convert them, so long as their purpose is clear. League players should not be considered the ‘answer’ to the Wallabies but as a useful card to play in promoting union.
In this sense, if enough league players convert they can provide a significant boost to the strength of rugby union in the competitive sporting marketplace of Australia.
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April 13th 2010 @ 6:49am
M1tch said | April 13th 2010 @ 6:49am | Report comment
Thurston will go but I doubt Folau will
April 13th 2010 @ 7:30am
Crosscoder said | April 13th 2010 @ 7:30am | Report comment
I doubt either will go.3rd party deals currently being gathered for Thurston in NQ.Folau if he moves from Brisvegas more likely to go to Storm,very close ties with Bellamy.
As pointed out the success or hit rate is not that high,with many coming back to the fold.What that says?
April 13th 2010 @ 7:39am
Justin said | April 13th 2010 @ 7:39am | Report comment
Apparently the Storm cannot fit him in the salary cap so he wont be headed there if he moves to Melbourne. I dont think he will go either and I prefer wingers in Union with real pace (he is a good player but dont think he suits the 15 man game).
April 13th 2010 @ 7:33am
inkosi said | April 13th 2010 @ 7:33am | Report comment
I thought Thurston had already been ruled out but the Folau had only just appeared on the radar?
April 13th 2010 @ 11:41am
Corey said | April 13th 2010 @ 11:41am | Report comment
Folau has announced he will be seeing out his contract with the Broncos at LEAST, with hopefully a renewal. He won’t move down to Melbourne, for either code. He moved up here to be closer to his family. He would only move to Sydney at most or Titans.
April 13th 2010 @ 8:11am
johnny-boy said | April 13th 2010 @ 8:11am | Report comment
The way Tuquiri is playing in league now shows just how disgracefully poorly he was handled in union. No wonder he got bored. No wonder he lost form. It’s hard to stay sharp when you just stand around doing sweet b….. all.
One of the most powerful runners ever and neither the Tahs nor the Wallabies were interested in giving him the ball regularly with some space. Almost criminal negligence.
April 13th 2010 @ 9:49am
Mike G said | April 13th 2010 @ 9:49am | Report comment
JB, this may seem odd to you, but the fact is LT had worth in RU aside from his tryscoring…In RU, wingers can actually come infield & help their “team mates” at the breakdown etc…and in this regard, LT was a much better player than you & others give him credit for. I could argue the negligence is on your part, but frankly I couldn’t be bothered trying to explain it anymore.
April 13th 2010 @ 9:56am
Justin said | April 13th 2010 @ 9:56am | Report comment
Time and space JB. One game has plenty of it and one game doesn’t. Simple.
April 13th 2010 @ 10:22am
MyGeneration said | April 13th 2010 @ 10:22am | Report comment
Yet Tuquiri seemed to find plenty of it in Union for his first 3 years, at least. And Jason Robinson (for another) never had any issues. Maybe there were differences in how the same (and different) players are used by different teams at different times.
I’ve noticed Joe Rokocoko showing a bit of his old form lately. Has he lost a bit of weight? Change of attitude? Maybe Lote had some off-field issues that were affecting his on-field form, and now he’s happy again. Maybe he’s made some changes to the way he trains to get back some lost speed. Who knows, but he’s definitely back to something like the man who made crowds expect something to happen everytime he touched the ball (in both codes) a few years ago. The fact that he’s playing for a team that uses the ball more than most probably helps.
Not so simple.
April 13th 2010 @ 4:21pm
Bay35Pablo said | April 13th 2010 @ 4:21pm | Report comment
MyGen, Smokin’ Joe has lost 3 kegs …
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/joe-rokocoko-rediscovers-his-old-spark-20100413-s54w.html
April 13th 2010 @ 4:46pm
MyGeneration said | April 13th 2010 @ 4:46pm | Report comment
Cheers, Bay, I wasn’t just making it up then
. Looks like a bit of family life might have helped as well. My point was that players lose and regain form for all sort of reasons, without changing codes coming into it. Tahu’s not setting the world on fire back in the NRL, but then he’s playing in a struggling team (again).
April 13th 2010 @ 12:23pm
Bay35Pablo said | April 13th 2010 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
FFS boys. The rules changed. That’s why!!! In the first fwe years LT was in union it was a more open game. Then it tightened up and got boring, and LT saw less ball. The new interpetations have oopened up the game again, which is why Smkin’ Joe looks like he did in previous (more open) years.
had LT stayed around he prbably would have been playing more like he did early on. For leicester he certainly looked btter than last year, probably because the defences in the GP weren’t as tight as some S14 and 3N teams (cue pothale spleen vent).
April 13th 2010 @ 2:14pm
Siva Samoa said | April 13th 2010 @ 2:14pm | Report comment
Tuqiri went missing alot because he sometimes thought he was a forward. When he did get the ball in rugby there was no where for him to run and kicked because gaps were closing quickly. He’s having a good in the NRL because its a one on one defence and its a easy game with lots of gaps and bad defenders.
April 13th 2010 @ 2:23pm
MyGeneration said | April 13th 2010 @ 2:23pm | Report comment
Can always rely on Siva to lower the tone.
April 13th 2010 @ 10:45pm
hutch said | April 13th 2010 @ 10:45pm | Report comment
haha another non biased opinion from poly!
April 13th 2010 @ 10:15pm
Tim O'Connor said | April 13th 2010 @ 10:15pm | Report comment
@ Shodan.
You claim you don’t see many Native Australians playing Rugby.
Well, I had the privilege of watching Jim Williams playing for Munster. And then coaching us to a HEC. And now I can see the fine job he’s doing with the Australian pack.
So, frankly, you can take the snide innuendo and sling your hook, mate.
As regards the idea that the French will come raiding league, ain’t gonna happen. If the French want forwards, they look to places like South Africa, Georgia and Argentina, as well as their own, because T14 forward play is no place for the faint-hearted, still less for those who can’t scrummage. For the backs, they won’t come raiding because, frankly, the track record of league converts isn’t brilliant. Robinson was by far the best, and early Tuqiri wasn’t bad, but apart from that they’ve largely been poor. This is all the more so in the NH, because if you think you can learn the positional elements of wing play in Rugby in the HEC, you’re going to get destroyed. Tuqiri, despite not being bad, was poor for Leicester. Back in the day, ever NH out-half’s favourite game was “Torture Wendell Sailor” because the man turned like a tractor; net result, long raking touchfinders behind him, preferably on a damp, slippy day. Others have fallen victim to the same treatment.
Even the T14′s sugar-daddies have more sense than to blow their cash like that when getting in Argentinians like Contepomi, Hernandez, Roncero et al has been so much more productive.
April 13th 2010 @ 10:36pm
Siva Samoa said | April 13th 2010 @ 10:36pm | Report comment
Well there aint many natives Samoan playing rugby league either or native white New Zealanders playing rugby league . Should we keep going shodan ?
April 13th 2010 @ 10:50pm
Norm said | April 13th 2010 @ 10:50pm | Report comment
Speaking of not many natives playing a particular sport Civy, care to tell us why the ARU cannot replicate the NRL’s ALL STAR game?
April 14th 2010 @ 6:49am
Russ13 said | April 14th 2010 @ 6:49am | Report comment
The All Star game idea came from Preston Cambell not the NRL or ARL.
April 14th 2010 @ 9:12am
Norm said | April 14th 2010 @ 9:12am | Report comment
I never said whose idea it was I just want Civy to tell me why the ARU can’t do the same.
April 13th 2010 @ 8:18am
Pete said | April 13th 2010 @ 8:18am | Report comment
I do not like the ARU using League ‘converts’ as PR tools. The reasons the Leaguies often come across is for cash (understandably) and when they cannot cut it at the top level in Union anymore they return for more cash in League… and become PR tools for League. It’s quite short sighted.
If League players are to be pursued it should not be for publicity, but to increase the depth of Australian Rugby (not necessarily for the Wallabies). I agree they need to get them young… and by all reports they are doing a good job of that in the schoolboy arena.
If the ARU is serious about young league players it needs to set up the correct pathways. Boost the Academy concept and bring the young leaguies into this program. Set up Academy camps and have regular matches to increase game time. Send them off to tour and play the provincial teams in NZ – teach them running rugby. Get them to play sevens in the academy set up to teach them one on one tackling and ball recycling. Let them learn the ropes outside of the glaring public spot light. I believe it takes a convert about 2 years to be become proficient in Union. Foster them and give them time.
When push comes to shove I’d rather see a league player carving it up in the NRL than sitting on the bench in Super Rugby. It’s just a waste of talent. If the players want to switch, give them the opportunities to maximise their potential. Coming into a Super Rugby game for the last 15 minutes isn’t going to develop anyone.
April 13th 2010 @ 8:36am
Bay35Pablo said | April 13th 2010 @ 8:36am | Report comment
“wing, a position where Australian rugby has almost no quality aside from Digby Ioane”
Um – Turner, Mitchell, Hynes, Davies for a start.
Plus Ioane is a centre last I checked.
They”d be better if they put the money into junior development at the late teens stage, to stop top schoolboys going to league when they can’t get a proper start due to limited chances in rugby.
And gee, if we had a full pro club comp, or the ARC was still around, perhaps we could blood league converts there …..
April 13th 2010 @ 11:07pm
klestical said | April 13th 2010 @ 11:07pm | Report comment
Exactly, ARU should have absolutely nothing to do with bringing league players over. If they are keen, send them to france and let the ARU focus on grassroots for once.
April 13th 2010 @ 8:48am
Hammer said | April 13th 2010 @ 8:48am | Report comment
Did the ARU spunk vast amounts on converting Tahu ? … I thought he was on a basic contract when he switched – obviously you could agrue any amount spent was wasted – but he certainly wasn’t in the Tuqiri, Sailor category …
April 13th 2010 @ 10:37am
The Link said | April 13th 2010 @ 10:37am | Report comment
exactly, Tahu was on hardly any ARU cash.
the converts worked for the particular time to increase exposure, but agree its time to move on for the ARU
April 13th 2010 @ 8:52am
kingplaymaker said | April 13th 2010 @ 8:52am | Report comment
Bay35 I hold an extremely low opinion of Turner, Mitchell and Hynes who are not up to Tri-nations standard. A Tri-nations standard wing is someone like Sivivatu, Habana or Ioane, who can actually make repeated, damaging breaks and not simply make up the numbers and be taken down the moment they touch the ball. As far as I could see the three players mentioned contributed virtually nothing to the Wallabies attack last year, despite abundant opportunity.
Bay and Pete, I’m not suggesting the ARU go spending a fortune on league converts at all. I never disagreed with their idea of incentive-based contracts. League players do have uses though, and it’s worth remembering that every successful conversion draws interest away from league to union, probably increases crowd numbers, and will strengthen a Super team and hence rugby in general. So these uses are valuable, and there’s a reason it’s called a code ‘war’.
There’s too much hysteria: either lots of league players should be bought or none. The truth lies in the middle: some should at a reasonable cost and when they are managed well.
April 13th 2010 @ 12:25pm
Bay35Pablo said | April 13th 2010 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
KPM, “contributed virtually nothing to the Wallabies attack last year”. Who did? We played like garbage last year.
Turner has played very well before then, but was stifled like many. Mitchell has many failings, but has shown glimpses this year finally of what he had shown in previous years. I put most of this down to the new interpetations.
I’ll be interested to see how tyey play this year in 3N.
April 13th 2010 @ 12:37pm
kingplaymaker said | April 13th 2010 @ 12:37pm | Report comment
Digby Ioane and Ashley-Cooper were far superior in attack to all three of those others combined! They simply do not have the ability to play for the Wallabies at this level. They are stop-gaps, at best.
April 13th 2010 @ 9:10am
M1tch said | April 13th 2010 @ 9:10am | Report comment
If Folau goes to union it will be the Reds he wont move away from family to go back to Melbourne
April 13th 2010 @ 10:59am
Sam said | April 13th 2010 @ 10:59am | Report comment
An article on the Roar today says he apparently misses Melbourne. I’ve heard the Rebels aren’t interested though, and the Storm can’t afford him. Probably all a storm in a teacup.
April 13th 2010 @ 11:45am
Corey said | April 13th 2010 @ 11:45am | Report comment
“An article on the Roar…” that is your conclusive argument. He says in his own words on TV, Broncos website put it on their website as well, that he loves Brisbane, and being with his family.
April 13th 2010 @ 11:49am
Sam said | April 13th 2010 @ 11:49am | Report comment
Chill. Note I said “apparently”. Just pointing it out. Wasn’t a personal attack on the man. Relax.
April 13th 2010 @ 2:02pm
M1tch said | April 13th 2010 @ 2:02pm | Report comment
In that case..watch this space for AFL to sign Izzy
April 13th 2010 @ 9:22am
Hoy said | April 13th 2010 @ 9:22am | Report comment
I must say straight up, I don’t believe in converting anyone, and I can’t stand the fact that everytime a league players contract comes up, out trots the old rugby interest, and the never tiring line “have to look at all options etc”.
I must also disagree with the following line from above:
“Shouldn’t the ARU worry less about the impact these players have on international rugby and more what they can do to sell the code?”
Whoa. I am not sure I completely got the right end of this, but is this saying forget if they can play, just go for high profile? What a waste of money that would be then. I would have thought the exact opposite. Shouldn’t they worry about how the player will go playing, rather than the PR win converting him? I think now, after the failures of past, all rugby fans are tired of the PR win and wish for value for money in the player. The money spent on Tuquiri could have funded the ARC for another year. What did rugby really get out of Lote? He wasn’t scoring many tries was he? Yeah the kids loved him, but what good is that for the Wallabies? Is that how selections are done? Shouldn’t be.
I want to see a good player come over for the game rather than the money. For that, I agree, they must learn the game. Now here is where I disagree with the other line above:
“To insist that the Super teams play them. The only way for league converts to learn the game is to be thrust repeatedly into match situations. Naturally this means the team will have an ineffective player for a while, even a liability, but it’s the only way for them to learn. ”
Whilst I agree they need to learn the game, if they are not up to it, they shouldn’t be playing at a high level. It they aren’t up to the level below the high level, they need to go down more. This is where my problems with paying converts comes to the fore. There must be selection based on skills. Now Tahu, whilst a great footballer with great base skills, to me, always looked out of depth for about 90% of the game. He should not have been on the bench for the Tahs, I agree, because he can’t learn the game there. He should have been in club rugby, learning the nuances of the game. The lines to run, how to read attacks when defending etc.
Where it becomes tricky, is the ARU (fools) pay money to contract these players to Australian rugby. Therefore, there is automatically an expectation that they get picked for Australia. What else does the ARU pay them for? Tahu was never up to playing in South Africa, and he was well shown up.
They are stars of league, but rugby is different. Not better, not tougher, whatever, just different. And they can’t learn it overnight. So for example Thurston comes over for money, expecting to make the Wallabies, because he “can see himself being a Wallaby” or whatever he thinks. ARU is paying him, so does that mean they have to play him? Officially, or course not, but London to a brick he gets a run before he is ready, because there is that expectation, from him, the fans, and the ARU to prove why they are paying him.
The money paid to converts could be poured into grass roots, or someone who actually knows how to play the game.
I don’t want to see another convert. Wasted money, wasted time, and how would you feel as a young buck looking to break through, and then along comes some bloke on heaps more money. He has never played the game before. Yes, he has base skills, catching, passing, etc, but he can’t read defensive lines, pushes in rucks with his hands etc. Would the young bucks overlooked get a little pissed off as well? We all bemoan the fact that playing stocks are thin. What is left to me? Overseas. Lets face it, I have been overlooked for higher honours by a league convert PR exercise, so I will not make the Wallabies anyway. Might as well get as much money as I can if I can’t play for my country.
April 13th 2010 @ 9:26am
Brett McKay said | April 13th 2010 @ 9:26am | Report comment
great post Hoy, couldn’t agree with you more..
April 13th 2010 @ 10:04am
soapit said | April 13th 2010 @ 10:04am | Report comment
bit of a sad ending tho.
April 13th 2010 @ 10:12am
kingplaymaker said | April 13th 2010 @ 10:12am | Report comment
Brett I know you as the most implacable enemy of league converts and Hoy has produced a number of arguments in a considerably less rambling manner than my original article itself
I suppose I should spell out a point which is perhaps implicit in the article but never uttered out loud out for reasons of delicacy and tact.
Rugby is doing badly in what is a code WAR. They are essentially competing with league for the same players and the same fans. The NRL’s popularity revolves around its possession of a number of ‘superstars’, as they’re repeatedly called (though I think the likes of Usain Bolt and Lionel Messi probably represent that term better). In fact here’s a list:
Jarryd Hayne, Greg Inglis, Johnathan Thurston, Israel Folau, Benji Marshall.
These are the five players who stand head and shoulders above the rest. Now what would happen if all five left the NRL? It would be brought to its knees, that’s what, and the primary beneficiary would be who? Rugby union of course!!!
Young players would stop choosing league and realise there are good reasons for playing union instead: more money, bigger international game: World Cup, Olympics, tours, tournaments. Why would all the league stars have suddenly left otherwise? With young players simply starting off or moving to union, league would suddenly find itself with a shortage not only of stars but of players full stop.
Then there would be a huge shift as fans lost interest in league, shorn of all its stars, and became attracted by the code which had managed to lure them.
With lowering crowds and television audiences, sponsors would depart, many to union, and television networks would be willing to pay less to league, and more to union.
So for these reasons it would probably destroy league and the ARU fully knows how much damage each conversion does league and how much it benefits union.
If that sounds like a rather dark reality, that’s because it is: the world is often dark.
But there are simple points to be made too in addition to this deep, fundamental reason.
Hoy has failed to notice that I wasn’t suggesting spending massively on these players: but if they can be had for a fair price, they’re good players. A good player is worth a fair price.
Nor do they have such mind-bending problems adjusting to the code as made out. Sonny Bill Williams and Mark Gasnier are both pretty handy now. I gave an account of how to do it above.
The point is that any of the top league players would make a good Super 15 player, and therefore increase the depth and success of rugby in Australia. They would also bring some fans with them, which means more revenue, and hence in the medium term more success.
April 13th 2010 @ 10:37am
MyGeneration said | April 13th 2010 @ 10:37am | Report comment
Here’s a list. Jason Robinson, Brad Thorn, Lote Tuquiri, Matt Rogers, Wendell Sailor, Mark Gasnier, Sonny Bill Williams, Craig Gower. Not all NRL players, not all superstars, but a pretty fair list (one could add the likes of Cross, Shifcofske and numerous other lesser lights I suppose). League brought to its knees?!? Hardly.
If you’re going to sign League players, it should be because they are going to make Union better, not to destroy League. That is idiotic and will only help to destroy both codes in this country. Well, actually, it will probably only destroy Union in this country, as it’s core supporters get more and more pissed off and wonder what the game actually stands for. League has shown itself to be pretty resilient in the last few years. Union should try to represent something other than “not League”. As for the “rather dark reality”, don’t the All Blacks have that market covered?
April 13th 2010 @ 12:39pm
kingplaymaker said | April 13th 2010 @ 12:39pm | Report comment
My generation that list is most of the major converts in recent history. I was talking about what would happen if every single major player left the sport. It would have a quite different effect, all to union’s gain.
April 13th 2010 @ 12:47pm
MyGeneration said | April 13th 2010 @ 12:47pm | Report comment
As it would affect any sport, IF it happened, for which you have given pretty poor evidence IMO. I also see little evidence in union’s history in this country of being able to exploit players leaving league for union’s gain (without a local World Cup to help), and that’s when they were leaving to play Union in Australia, not going overseas as you’re suggesting.
April 13th 2010 @ 10:38am
reds fan said | April 13th 2010 @ 10:38am | Report comment
“Jarryd Hayne, Greg Inglis, Johnathan Thurston, Israel Folau, Benji Marshall.
These are the five players who stand head and shoulders above the rest. Now what would happen if all five left the NRL? It would be brought to its knees, that’s what, and the primary beneficiary would be who? Rugby union of course!!!”
I disagree here. League has shown an amazing level of resilience over the years, and just when you think a host of stars are retiring the next group of stars aren’t far behind. This has always been the codes greatest strength.
Look at when SBW left… it was truly a case of “The king is dead. Long live the king!”. Those that leave are quickly forgetten and replaced.
April 13th 2010 @ 12:41pm
kingplaymaker said | April 13th 2010 @ 12:41pm | Report comment
reds fan the difference is that the prospect looming now is not a lot of old players retiring, or an individual like SBW leaving, but the ENTIRE cast of CURRENT TOP players! Naturally old players are replaced and an individual never makes that much difference, but the whole top-ranking player roster is a different matter, and a new problem that the NRL has not faced before.
April 13th 2010 @ 12:52pm
reds fan said | April 13th 2010 @ 12:52pm | Report comment
The trend in the north is to tighten the regulations regarding the number of foreigners, and as such I doubt what you have suggested will come to pass.
April 13th 2010 @ 1:21pm
kingplaymaker said | April 13th 2010 @ 1:21pm | Report comment
Well My generation, you’re certainly right that the ARU is inept at exploiting advantages. It seems determined to throw whatever advantages of any sort it has away.
April 13th 2010 @ 11:09am
Brett McKay said | April 13th 2010 @ 11:09am | Report comment
KPM, that’s not entirely true that I’m the “most implacable enemy of league converts” – I was disappointed the way Tahu played out because I had high hopes for his eventual success. Andrew Johns is possibly my favourite player in either code, and I was genuinely disappointed he didn’t switch codes because I would love to have seen how he went against the likes of Larkham, Merhtens and Wilkinson at that time.
I’m not against converts per se, but like Hoy I want to see them convert because of a genuine desire only. I reckon Rod McQueen got it right when he said the Rebels didn’t want any “league mercenaries” because that’s basically what they are; they have no interest or desire to play the game – except for a price.
Thurston is the classic case, any talk about him switching codes originated from him or his manager, and I personally find that annoying as hell (and the irony was when his manager claimed the ARU – who hadn’t made a comment at all – were using “his client” for publicity!!)
Of the current crop of stars that you mention, only Inglis would interest me, as he’s the only player who I could see making the swap with relative ease.
(By the way, I’m not sure rugby league would “be brought to its knees” should those five guys or any prominent names switch codes – there always seems to be guys waiting in the wings when this happens, and there’s perhaps no better example than the young centres St.George/Illawarra have unearthed since Gasnier went to France.)
What I am dead against though is the “publicity” converts that you and Hoy talked about, with Sailor being the obvious example. Tuqiri was brought over for basically the same reason, and thankfully took to rugby reasonably well at the start. Both brought the ARU return on investment with bums on seats; nothing more, nothing less.
If converting league players is the way forward – and I’m not convinced it is – I would rather see the 18-20yo guys targeted than the “stars”. There’s two young brothers playing flyhalf and fullback for Warringah (and unfortunately, their name escapes me) who played Toyota Cup for Manly, but for one reason or another didn’t or couldn’t make the leap to NRL. They’re still only 21 or 22, and they look like they might be pretty handy in another few years.
For the money spent on Tahu, you could get four or five or more young guys at this age, and with time and good coaching, the return on investment would be significantly better for rugby in general.
But still, I look around at some of the young talent playing Super Rugby this year for the states, and it’s hard not to get excited. I wrote a column back a month or so ago on four of the new breed coming through, and I could easily have written about 10 or 12. You say there’s no quality wingers in Australia – which is obviously your entitled opinion – but I’ll instantly throw up the likes of McCabe, Morahan, Mafi, and Haylett-Petty as some names for the future.
In most positions around the park there’s plenty to be excited about. In five years time, we might be talking about guys who are 21 or 22 now (or younger) the same way we speak of Mortlock and Elsom and co now. Just think about these guys, and what they could be in five years:
O’Connor, Davies, Horne, the Faingaas (all three of them), Andrew Smith, McCabe, Morahan, Mafi, Haylett-Petty, Lealiifano, Beale, Toomua, McKibbon, Kingi, Mowen, McCalman, Coridas, Hooper, Schatz, Alcock, Jones, Douglas, Palmer, Daley, Fitzpatrick..
And there’s probably several more I’ve missed.
So it’s not that I’m against converts. I just question whether they’re really needed??
(wow, that got lenghty quick – this rambling thing’s contagious….)
April 13th 2010 @ 11:30am
kingplaymaker said | April 13th 2010 @ 11:30am | Report comment
Brett I see the point that they’re probably not needed to bolster playing stocks even at Super level. It’s also true that even if they’re paid modestly it amounts to more than a home-grown player. Also the ARU has so little money even a player on an incentive-based contract costs more than lesser players. However, a 20 year-old Folau is not that much older than a young union players, unlike an ageing Tahu. There certainly have been many good new players in the Super 15 this year it’s true. Perhaps it’s really other reasons which determine their conversions.
I have a secret to share with you though: the NRL is doomed anyway, and the reason why has just become obvious. It’s that both Toulon and Stade Francais have made monumental offers to retain Sonny Bill Williams and Mark Gasnier.
So what, it could be asked: didn’t they have to pay colossal amounts to get them in the first place? Yes they did, but that was speculative. They were advised by southern hemisphere coaches that these players of mysterious origin were astonishing, and took it on trust. That’s why Boudjellal said ‘IF THIS WORKS, we could well end up going there (the NRL) to get much of our talent.’
But at that stage they didn’t know how well it would work and how good these players were. Now they have seen for themselves and that is why they are offeing these gigantic sums to retain them.
So as they now trust that the top NRL players are so good, how long before Jacky Lorenzetti and Max Guazzini or Boudjellal start wondering: ‘aren’t there any other players down there as good as Gasnier and SBW?’ and then some nearby Australian will say ‘of course, Inglis, Hayne, Thurston, Marshall, Folau! Not to mention the second tier like Brett Stewart, Brent Tate etc..who are perfectly good as well!’. Lorenzetti will then call Hayne’s manager and say ‘How about 1 million a year?’ The agent will reply ‘Ah but he has loyalty to his club’. ‘What about 1.5?’ ‘Ah but he has loyalty to the game.’ ’2 million?’ ‘He has a contract’ ‘I’ll buy it out too!’. Then it’s all over!
And soon not only the top tier of players but the top twenty will be down in France and the code war will be at an end!!
Trust me. This has an inexorable logic. The moment those billionaire owners realise how much talent there is and start methodically raiding the NRL, and then league is finished. That moment is coming now. I’ll give it 5-10 years.
April 13th 2010 @ 12:13pm
MyGeneration said | April 13th 2010 @ 12:13pm | Report comment
OK, Dr Evil, according to your execrable logic, the top 20 players of NRL are playing in France in the next couple of years, because France is full of Rugby millionaires with money to burn and no-one to answer to (moohahaha!). A brilliant plan! And after the inevitable (moohahaha!) demise of the NRL, the ARU, with it’s proven grass-roots organisation and abiltiy to connect with the people, takes over, starting with the Greater West of Sydney (moohahaha!). It’s so simple, even a 5 year old child could understand it!
Just one thing. If the French tycoons are spending millions on (unproven) Australian Rugby League players (moohahaha!), what’s stopping them spending a few millions on (proven)Australian Rugby Union players?
Um, and how does any of this help the ARU? The NRL disappears (you wish) and Rugby Union stays a niche sport for private school boys whose main ambition is to get noticed by a French millionaire?!?
While it’s concentrating all it’s forces on decimating the NRL courtesy of French tycoons, has the ARU noticed what AFL and soccer are doing in its backyard?
Other than that, I, for one. trust your level-headed analysis completely (moohahaha!)
April 13th 2010 @ 11:45am
Brett McKay said | April 13th 2010 @ 11:45am | Report comment
I agree the French clubs will come looking this way more often KPM (as will the Japanese clubs in time), however, I’m not quite as confident as you that that NRL is “doomed” (I’m not confident at all, to be honest). Moves in France to limit the number of foreign players will mean that perhaps only the cream of the NRL are targetted, but again, I can’t see that being the beginning of the end…
April 13th 2010 @ 11:58am
kingplaymaker said | April 13th 2010 @ 11:58am | Report comment
Brett the difference between the ARU and the French clubs is simply that the latter have no end of money, and this is how they will be able to buy out everyone.
Those moves to limit foreign players in France have apparently been reversed or significantly relaxed (although the salary cap has been introduced, at a very high level), so there will be plenty of places, especially as pacific islanders qualify somehow as home-based players through some special law which I must say I don’t understand. Hence SBW doesn’t count as a foreign player, and that’s why it was so important for him to get his Samoan passport before fleeing the Bulldogs. As many of the top NRL players have pacific ancestry, this creates even more places.
Imagine if the top twenty players leave the game!
April 13th 2010 @ 12:08pm
Brett McKay said | April 13th 2010 @ 12:08pm | Report comment
true, but the FFR still runs the Top 14, not the clubs. Stade Francais (to pick a club) wouldn’t be allowed to just buy the NRL winners one year and transplant them en masse, the FFR wouldn’t allow it. I do agree with what you’re saying, I just don’t think things will be as dire for the NRL as you predict/hope.
And don’t forget, seven or eight whole clubs “left the game” in the late 90s, but the then ARL competition survived. Say what you like about the quality of football played in 1997, but the game not only coped, it emerged stonger.
The Islanders (and specifically those with PI passports), from my limited understanding, are recognised differently by or within the EU, and it’s that that allows them to come in as a “local”. I can’t recall what the reason is, but it’s the same way so many NZ players have been able to go into the ESL over the years..
April 13th 2010 @ 12:32pm
kingplaymaker said | April 13th 2010 @ 12:32pm | Report comment
Next generation you do have a point that the French clubs are a serious threat to southern hemisphere teams, although they would probably have to counter severe opposition from within their own code, and even the IRB if their raiding became too destructive. This may be why they have so far held off somewhat from buying Wallabies and All Blacks, whereas they have no qualms about plucking NRL players away.
If the NRL collapses, the young players will simply move straight into union, with the result that Australia will thrash everyone.
You’re also right that the ARU needs to watch out for the AFL and Soccer.
April 13th 2010 @ 12:36pm
Bay35Pablo said | April 13th 2010 @ 12:36pm | Report comment
Brettm Those blokes have likely gone to Warringah because they couldn’t get a contract in NRL once they were too old for Toyota Cup.
Rugby should be hoovering those blokes up, but doesn’t have the money or professional structure to do so. Instead they end up in club rugby, hoping to get a Super contract.
We should be going one better, and getting them instead of Totyota Cup. But that won’t happen. We can’t even get a 3rd tier let alone a pro colts comp.
April 13th 2010 @ 12:42pm
Brett McKay said | April 13th 2010 @ 12:42pm | Report comment
Pablo, that was exactly my point.. Can you put my failing memory to rest with their names??
April 13th 2010 @ 1:44pm
max power said | April 13th 2010 @ 1:44pm | Report comment
John and Maurice Kennedy you are thinking of and they played for the Dragons in the Toyota Cup not Manly.
As a side note John was the Australia A schoolboys fly-half behind Kurtley Beale and Quade Cooper in 2006. This was despite him comprehensively outplaying Beale in the GPS v CHS game at the NSW All-schools carnival which CHS won. He was then picked in the NSW 2nd side with Beale in the NSW 1st. He then comprehensively outplayed Cooper when NSW 2nd beat QLD 1st at the Australian All-schools carnival. He didn’t play club rugby then either, just league.
I think Maurice was only allowed to return to contact when he started playing Toyota Cup with the Dragons are fracturing a couple of his cervical vertebrae as a junior.
April 13th 2010 @ 1:55pm
Brett McKay said | April 13th 2010 @ 1:55pm | Report comment
Thanks Max, it is indeed the Kennedy boys I’m thinking of. Thanks for the Toyota Cup correction too, I’m sure I heard somewhere Manly was their club, but evidently not…
April 14th 2010 @ 11:48am
t.rex said | April 14th 2010 @ 11:48am | Report comment
is this the same guy that played 10 for the rats last sat against eastwood? well he had a forward pack that was very dominant at the line out and the driving maul but didnt know how to kick for field position like a decent 10 should be able to do and use his teams strength. instead he and his brother tried to run and step their way out of there own half. sure the eastwood backs played well but these brothers had no idea about the basics of rugby at that level. they should stick with touch footy.
April 13th 2010 @ 12:40pm
Pete said | April 13th 2010 @ 12:40pm | Report comment
Amazingly not everyone likes Union (I don’t understand why either), so what do the die hard League followers do if the NRL dies. I don’t think it will, nor do I want it to. I like choice. If there aren’t any games of Union on, I’m sure to find a game of League to watch.
The ARU needs to develop its own talent by giving them pathways to progress. Currently (due to funding) those pathways are limited, therefore use the money that would be targetted at Falou to find and foster a couple of O’Connors or Pockcocks et al.
April 13th 2010 @ 3:00pm
oikee said | April 13th 2010 @ 3:00pm | Report comment
Talking about o’Conner, did you see that centre for the raiders last nite, he reminded me of Micheal o’conner the way he run the ball, out with one hand, and then the swerve and speed to finish off, outsmarting Jarad Hayne.
He is only 20.
Talking about the under 20′s, has anybody here been watching the Toyota cup? I am totally amazed at the size, speed, skill and talent running around now.
Hopoate would kill them in rugby union. This kid, only 18 is a absolute freak.
April 13th 2010 @ 5:27pm
Siva Samoa said | April 13th 2010 @ 5:27pm | Report comment
His uncle is now playing rugby in Sydney and he’s not killing it in rugby. There are hundreds and hundreads of players better and skillful than Hopoate playing 1st XV rugby in New Zealand.
April 13th 2010 @ 9:47am
Hoy said | April 13th 2010 @ 9:47am | Report comment
Sorry, was in the middle of editing this and cleaning it up, however ran out of time.
I promise my edited version was cleaner. Less rambling.
April 13th 2010 @ 12:25pm
kingplaymaker said | April 13th 2010 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
Brett of course to crush a whole game in one blow is difficult. League is certainly resilient as most of their players seem immune to the charm of travel, World Cups, even the Olympics.
One place where league won’t be damaged by anything is England. Here, fans are loyal more for social reasons than because they prefer one game or a group of players to the other (league is not only played by a different social group but in the north which also constitutes a further social grouping). So most league fans in England would rather watch nothing or football than union. League here is northern and working class while rugby is southern and middle class. Plus there are no stars to lose in english league.
As far as I understand the difference is similar in Australia, but nothing like as extreme. So a fan might actually watch what they find more attractive, not simply what everyone they know watches.
April 13th 2010 @ 12:36pm
MyGeneration said | April 13th 2010 @ 12:36pm | Report comment
to crush a whole game in one blow is “difficile” – I’m sorry, I can’t help it, Vichy, anyone? Perhaps I should have addressed Dr Mal before. I keep thinking you might be taking the piss, kpm, but, alas, it appear you are serious. Do you think Australian (Rugby) fans might have been watching what they find more attractive for the last 100 years or so?
April 13th 2010 @ 12:47pm
kingplaymaker said | April 13th 2010 @ 12:47pm | Report comment
Mygeneration that’s the effect of competition. You’ll see. In 5-10 years, it will all be over.
Not that I’m applauding it. It’s just from an objective point of view, it’s inevitable.
The French clubs are the monstrous threat, but I’m sure the Japanese, English and Magner’s league club will help push things to their conclusion, as will the ARU in their own small way. Their are too many vultures hovering for league to escape.
April 13th 2010 @ 1:07pm
MyGeneration said | April 13th 2010 @ 1:07pm | Report comment
I don’t think there is anything objective or inevitable about it. You seem to act like the Australian sporting landscape is just a theatre for the NRL and ARU to play out their “war” and that this is a zero-sum game where only one player will emerge from the “cage of death”. It might turn out to be a little bit more complicated than that. It has up to now.
April 13th 2010 @ 10:58pm
hutch said | April 13th 2010 @ 10:58pm | Report comment
kingplaymaker, in 5-10 years time the top rugby league players in the nrl will be on over double than what they are on now with a new massive tv deal and increased club turnover via memberships, i dont think the threat is as great as you say. you may get the odd defection for the “challenge”, but we may also see the odd defection the other way as well with the greater rugby league money.
April 13th 2010 @ 11:07pm
Siva Samoa said | April 13th 2010 @ 11:07pm | Report comment
And SBW will still said the bus driver get a raise but the NRL players stay the same.
April 13th 2010 @ 12:45pm
Brett McKay said | April 13th 2010 @ 12:45pm | Report comment
I would suggest it’s nigh on impossible, KPM.
Not to mention it just doesn’t need to be a goal of rugby, in Australia or anywhere else…
April 13th 2010 @ 12:56pm
kingplaymaker said | April 13th 2010 @ 12:56pm | Report comment
One minor point Brett, if the NRL did decline and union swooped up all it’s young players, it would lead to the total dominance of the Wallabies on the global stage. They would simply obliterate everyone else. That would be a result to fear for us in England
April 13th 2010 @ 6:13pm
Sam said | April 13th 2010 @ 6:13pm | Report comment
Hmmm…. Before Rugby League was established in Australia they were playing rugby exclusively in Queensland and NSW and were getting dominated by New Zealand. So…. maybe not.
April 13th 2010 @ 1:09pm
Brett McKay said | April 13th 2010 @ 1:09pm | Report comment
that’s a pretty large and highly unlikely ‘if’ though, KPM…
April 13th 2010 @ 1:18pm
kingplaymaker said | April 13th 2010 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
It could be, but a happy outcome for the Wallabies fan, who has been suffering lately.