Folau would struggle with AFL fitness
Roar Guru By Mister Football, 4 May 2010 Mister Football is a Roar Guru
- Tagged:
- AFL, Israel Folau, NRL, Rugby League
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Let me start by saying that I am an unashamed Israel Folau fan and think that he is one of the very best footballers in Australia of any description.
It’s probably not a stretch to say that, considering his young age, he has revolutionized some aspects of the game of rugby league and successfully brought the game to many Victorian fans who would have once known very little about it.
One unfortunate aspect about the current speculation of whether Folau will follow the money trail or stick with what he does best is that it presents an opportunity for people to make silly comments about certain football codes in the absence of any empirical evidence.
So I was pleased to read some intelligent commentary on the subject on the weekend in The Sunday Age, from no less an expert than the Storm’s very own physical performance coach, Alex Corvo.
Most are already aware that Folau is not a noted kicker of the footy in League currently, so that immediately puts him behind Hunt in terms of the capacity to adapt relatively quickly (in what is already going to be a very big ask for Hunt to begin with).
Corvo made the further observation that a great an athlete as Folau is (and he’s certainly that), he is conditioned for short, powerful bursts rather than constant running.
Many league fans are probably unaware that in your average 120 minute Australian Football game, even allowing for the many breaks players have in the modern game with an unlimited interchange, about 18 of the 22 players are running 16 to 18 kilometres per game at an average pace that would make most mortals physically sick within five minutes.
Think about running ten 100 metre sprints in less than three minutes, and you’ll start to get a picture of the exertion and aerobic capacity demanded of most players these days.
Corvo makes the surprising admission that in his days at the Storm, Folau often trailed the forwards in endurance drills.
He wryly says further: “He’s not an aerobic athlete at all … the unlimited interchange in the AFL will certainly get a workout with Israel in the team.”
His main chance is to be played in one of those positions where he’s not running 16 to 18 kilometres per game, but could he really hold down a key position?
In any event, even a specialist key position forward like Barry Hall is running 12 kilometres, much of that made up of one 50 to 60 metre sprint after the other, over and over and over. And he might only touch the ball once every five or six of those sprints, or not at all for a whole quarter.
So without showing any disrespect at all to Folau, it’s really a double whammy: no kicking skills and lacking the requisite aerobic capacity.
If the AFL were to throw $1 million a year at such a player, it would so obviously be a publicity stunt, and potentially, it could prove so humiliating for the player concerned, that I’m not sure the stunt is worth the risk.
If it’s true Folau has been offered the money, I hope for his own sake, and that of the AFL, that he rejects it and continues doing what he does best.
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- AFL, Israel Folau, NRL, Rugby League
May 4th 2010 @ 7:40am
ilikelollies said | May 4th 2010 @ 7:40am | Report comment
Endurance is the common cold of athletic attributes, it is by far the easiest to attain.
And they dont run 16-18 Km, the average is 12, the record is just over 15km by Robert Harvey. Facts please, not Aussie Rules propoganda.
May 4th 2010 @ 7:58am
Ken said | May 4th 2010 @ 7:58am | Report comment
I think there’s all sorts of reasons the idea of paying Folau a million a year to play AFL is not wise. However I would agree with ilikelollies, as a runner myself (enthusiast level only…) endurance is relatively easy to build. I’d be surprised if a professional athlete with specialist training couldn’t overcome this weakness in one good off season. It’s that he’s never played the game, wouldn’t have a clue about tactics and specific skills of the game that could be embaressing for potentially one of the highest paid players in AFL.
May 4th 2010 @ 8:09am
mushi said | May 4th 2010 @ 8:09am | Report comment
Well if the level of endurance was simply a recreational runner then yes it would be bleeding easy to obtain. Sadly I think this is a little more advanced.
Lets say that even though Izzy plays the lowest work rate positions in the NRL, a sport with a far low work rate in general than the AFL, he can adjust and gain the requisite endurance.
How much change to his body shape will it require?
How long will such a change take?
Remember that every training hour spent on adjusting his “athleticism” from elite power to elite endurance is another hour that he doesn’t have to learn handballing, kicking and positional play.
Also during those hours players that already know how to kick, hand ball and position themselves at the elite level are developing even further.
May 4th 2010 @ 8:14am
Mister Football said | May 4th 2010 @ 8:14am | Report comment
Mushi
well put.
ps you seem to know a lot about this sports science stuff – do you have a background in it. Most of us would love you to share that sort of info with us.
May 4th 2010 @ 8:57am
mushi said | May 4th 2010 @ 8:57am | Report comment
Sorry no formal background in it, have done some coaching which got me “recreationally interested” in it and the person that got me into coaching was pretty well versed.
There are plenty of more credible sources than I scatter across the net that give decent coverage across sports.
May 4th 2010 @ 8:46am
Ken said | May 4th 2010 @ 8:46am | Report comment
Not suggesting that the level of endurance required is at a ‘recreational’ level, just that a professional athlete with an an army of specialists should be able to overcome the endurance problem in a relatively short timeframe. I’m in complete agreement with you that teaching him to play AFL at top level could take a lot longer than that and I believe that this is where his problems will lie.
There is no doubt that Izzy, as an outside back, would have a lower sustained work rate than anyone in AFL. In general though, I think the raw numbers of how many kilometres ran is an incomplete indicator of the endurance levels in the football codes. I think some of the League hookers and 2nd row forwards would be right up at the pointy end in the endurance stakes when you consider that they spend a lot of time running backwards (during defence) and are involved in 50+ collisons in a game – both of which are incredibly energy sapping while not adding significantly to their overall running metres.
May 4th 2010 @ 9:03am
mushi said | May 4th 2010 @ 9:03am | Report comment
Improve his endurance yes – but there are no guarantees that he ahs the capacity to be that kind of endurance athlete given his history and natural size and I think it will take longer than you expect.
As for the other work rate yep forwards would have very high work rates for the short bursts they are on, I still think it would be well below the majority of AFL positions just given the different shapes of the athletes and the nature of the two games.
May 4th 2010 @ 10:35am
Ken said | May 4th 2010 @ 10:35am | Report comment
‘forwards would have very high work rates for the short bursts they are on’
In the forward positions I was referring to though (hookers & 2nd rowers) many play a full game, guys like Hindmarsh, Stagg, Farah for example will often not touch the bench and will be chasing kicks, tackling and hitting up the ball with huge energy up until the 80th minute. I’m not denigrating the endurance of the AFL athletes and, there is little argument that they cover the most ground, just pointing out that these guys also have huge motors it just doesn’t get conveyed in raw metres covered.
The energy required to keep running backwards surprises me at the start of every touch season. I’ll be doing 20km runs and thinking I’m fit but I’ll still be buggered 10mins into the first game of the season!
Of course, Folau’s an outside back (i.e. someone who hangs around footballers) and does better suit the image of the guy that jogs around with an occasional burst.
May 4th 2010 @ 8:12am
Mister Football said | May 4th 2010 @ 8:12am | Report comment
I think that is incorrect about the 15km claim.
The endurance is a question because it’s coupled with the other obvious factor of not having played the game.
Generally speaking, when a player comes from a non-AFL background, at a minimum, he brings other elite-level qualities that help compensate for lacking the background in the game.
But if you’re lacking the necessary endurance, then you’re lacking in the one key area capable of overcoming deficiencies in other areas.
Endurance can certainly be improved, to a point.
But Corvo’s admission that Folau was behind many forwards in endurance drills speaks volumes to me.
AFL players are built for endurance – that has to be the very first box ticked, if that doesn’t exist, you can forget about it.
May 4th 2010 @ 8:47am
Redb said | May 4th 2010 @ 8:47am | Report comment
Endurance is not easy to attain at the level required to play elite AFL, it requires a strong will and months of pre season training, not all athletes are prepared to put in the work to reach the required level.
Where are your facts about km’s run in an AFL game?
Dramaticially increasing the much lighter aerobic training regime of RL players like Folau is the issue.
It is also true that not all players are equal with regards to endurance. Players like Chris Judd have a big ‘engine’ compared to other midfielders, Reiwoldt just runs and runs with second efforts which sets him apart from other forwards. Anyone can do it is what your saying, but the facts disprove your claims. Not all players are equal.
Athletes gravitate to their potential, sprinters v long distance runners.
May 4th 2010 @ 8:09am
Emperor Penguin said | May 4th 2010 @ 8:09am | Report comment
Why is a discussion about AFL on the NRL board? This thread only mentions Folau in context as an AFL player. wrong place to put this one…
He is probably going to the Rebels anyway, so it doesn’t matter.
May 4th 2010 @ 10:26am
JamesP said | May 4th 2010 @ 10:26am | Report comment
The piece is titled “Folau would struggle with AFL fitness”. Untill such time as it is confirmed that he is going to the Rebels…we will continue to talk about it in context with the AFL.
May 4th 2010 @ 8:55am
AndyRoo said | May 4th 2010 @ 8:55am | Report comment
Very tough if your struggling fitness wise to then make a strong contribution at the end of a 50m run.
That said they would be foolish to use him in a traditional way, and I see them being used as defensive forwards to put pressure on the opponents.
Folau just seems like massive money down the toilet for mine though. At least K hunt has some game smarts about him but Folau has struggled to convert from wing to centre.
May 4th 2010 @ 9:02am
The Link said | May 4th 2010 @ 9:02am | Report comment
So what? Izzy’s currently conditioned for RL, so of course its less arobically directed.
Assuming he gets a decent pre-season then no issues.
Also Karmichael Hunt is not a kicker of renown in RL, more a part timer. And i’ve played a couple of AFL games in high school, doesn’t mean i’m ready to step up to senior AFL football. Can’t see therefore why Hunt is less of a risk than anyone else making the transition.
May 4th 2010 @ 9:55am
Art Sapphire said | May 4th 2010 @ 9:55am | Report comment
Pip – Everyone knows that the physical demands of an AFL player are extreme but there is no need to exaggerate.
I actually feel sorry for what players in AFL have to do these days.
Here is some factual evidence.
http://sport.fitsense.com.au/downloads/AFL_GPS_Research_Report_2005.pdf
In 2005 – average distance covered.
Forward 11.95 km, Defender 12.16km, Midfielder 12.93km
Everything you need to now is in the report.
Even accounting for slight increases in the last few years due to the relentless increase in interchanges, it is way off 16- 18 km.
In regards to Folau, its just another AFL charade. The AFL should be more concerned with how the game is being played rather than who is playing the game. The danger in AFL is the velocity in which the game is being played not the distance covered. AFL players these days are in danger of becoming high speed crash test dummies.
All I cans see is that Folau will just be crunching players at a higher speed. Whether he can play Aussie Rules, it seems to the AFL, is besides the point.
May 4th 2010 @ 10:00am
Redb said | May 4th 2010 @ 10:00am | Report comment
“AFL players these days are in danger of becoming high speed crash test dummies.”
But Art, AFL is soft
2005 is an eternity ago, I seriously doubt that it’s a ‘slight’ increase given the intro of 18 man presses in the game.
Anything up to date around?
May 4th 2010 @ 8:02pm
Mister Football said | May 4th 2010 @ 8:02pm | Report comment
That report quotes previous studies. One referred to midfielders running 17 km per game, and another report that even quoted 20 km.
So isn’t that a sufficient basis to mention a 16 to 18 km range?
I’m not sure why people are trying to make out as if I’ve made the number up.
This report from 2005 quotes a lower figure, perhaps it’s more accurate, perhaps things have moved on in five years (and a lot changes in five years in Australian Football).
There are more rotations now, we all know it’s gone through the roof, but players are expected to cover the ground at a faster pace.
If a player average 8km per hour over 120 minutes, that’s the equivalent of 16 km.
That same player, might now be on for 100 minutes, but he is now averaging 9km per hour, meaning he’s covering 15 km in that 100 minutes.
The distance might be down slightly, but the energy expended, and intensity demanded to keep up that higher average is higher than ever before.
Everyone should be left in no doubt that the running that is demanded of the modern AFL player (while still playing a game of footy), is at unprecedented levels, whichever way you care to dice it up.
May 4th 2010 @ 10:04am
ilikelollies said | May 4th 2010 @ 10:04am | Report comment
Thanks Art , I wasnt trying to downplay the fitness you need to play the game, just the hyperbole.
And your right Redb, 2005 was an eternity ago, massivley increased rotations mean it would be slightly less at a higher intensity. In 2007 during a Lions game I think the average was 11km.
May 4th 2010 @ 10:16am
Redb said | May 4th 2010 @ 10:16am | Report comment
The game has changed dramaticially in 5 years, yes there are more rotations but that is due to the extra running required for zoning and increased tackling pressure.
May 4th 2010 @ 10:50am
M1tch said | May 4th 2010 @ 10:50am | Report comment
Watch Folau run 40 meters, he would need 3 pre seasons to match a afl player
May 4th 2010 @ 9:45pm
Michael C said | May 4th 2010 @ 9:45pm | Report comment
yeah, the key with Australian Football is the work rate required generally just to get a kick. Although if in the right place at the right time there can be some cheapies got down back…..sometimes……but, Folau would have to discover the ability to run 80 metres…….just to get in a position to get the ball,
let alone, that having the ball in hand….he can run….and then……bounce? kick?…..it’s not like RL/RU where you run with no ‘handicap’ and don’t need to ‘steady’ to dispose of the ball but simply place the ball across a line (for all that’s great about RL……the end ‘action’ of a ‘run’ is vastly less taxing or technical than in Aust Footy).
May 4th 2010 @ 12:29pm
Aka said | May 4th 2010 @ 12:29pm | Report comment
An article from the Herald Sun on the weekend re: non AFL players adapting to the game.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/former-swan-mark-brownings-coded-theory/story-e6frf9jf-1225860990065
Mark Browning saying basically that AFL is only now using tactics that other sports have been using for years and thus athletes from outside the game are able to enter the game at the elite level.
And for what it’s worth IMO a possession game and zone defense will mean less running not more.
May 4th 2010 @ 1:02pm
Lazza said | May 4th 2010 @ 1:02pm | Report comment
“He never played a game of AFL footy until his 18th year. He played a total of six games and I put him in our state under-18 team.
How many other sports would that be even possible? I can’t think of any except specialist kickers in the NFL?
It’s not the lack of skill in the AFL that’s the problem, it’s the lack of proper skills training. The old SANFL competition here in SA had more skilful players than I see today in the modern AFL. The American draft system is the major problem in my view. In the States, kids learn their skills through junior levels and college sports before they become pros. We don’t have that with Australian Football and there is no incentive for clubs to set up academies or any kind of youth development.
May 4th 2010 @ 1:07pm
Redb said | May 4th 2010 @ 1:07pm | Report comment
That state team 5 years ago was a QLD state U18 team. As a non tradtional state (depth) and Hunt being an elite athlete might be the reason.
The AFL is setting up academies in NSW and QLD as the historical structures are not as strong as in Vic, SA, WA.
I do agree on the skills training, too much emphasis on fitness not enough on foot skills, although with the intro of Buckleys kucking test at the AIS / draft camp that focus is changing thankfully.
May 4th 2010 @ 8:33pm
Midfielder said | May 4th 2010 @ 8:33pm | Report comment
Aka
Good article and has a lot of truth … I have now played three games of AFl (does this make me an expert—- not realy) Two games were against the rugby Old Boys … and we killed em…
In our pre season we played against an U 18 AFL team… to get fit … we were all over 45 and many 4 like myself in our 50′s… we won … we were more surprised … so were the AFL team….
We played with a RL ball… and had football posts and each goal was only 1 point… But we had a sense of timing and shape it has been drilled into you how to cover space … were to go and what options you can open to the person who is going to get the ball…
Our tactics were not AFL … for a start we often drove the ball low but into space the runner would often kick the ball on the ground or pick it up and lay back sideways a simple kick for a mark… I not sure if anyone can quite understand what I mean… but say 25 meters from the play their was a space we would put a kick into that space on the ground then support the person who was going for the ball… or simply kick it into open space again … meaning we often did not look for players … but we all knew how to support a player who got the ball after running into space..
TBH but these kids were not the best sporting types running around weekend park sport…
But back to the article … Football and Rugby codes do understand shape and how to both close it down and open it up…
OK Ok Ok … three games two against rugby old boys and another against other codes rejects… but the AFL players were amazed how much we knew and they did not know about shape…
May 4th 2010 @ 8:46pm
Mister Football said | May 4th 2010 @ 8:46pm | Report comment
Something tells me your over 45s game is a few dozen orders below what we are talking about here.
May 4th 2010 @ 10:21pm
Midfielder said | May 4th 2010 @ 10:21pm | Report comment
Very true … however they may be slightly faster than me today (i.e. the professional sports folk) … but if the contest is even then it is fun… and a reflection of the main game OK OK OK a tad slower…
BTW we also drank the AFL U 18 off the park after the game…. given they had to pay which is the local rule … if you loose you buy the beer … maybe they held back a bit … they have sent a challenge to us for next year … we sent a challenge to the rugby old boys for next year … so far in three games of AFL I have not had to buy a beer and have had plenty after the game…
May 4th 2010 @ 9:26pm
Mister Football said | May 4th 2010 @ 9:26pm | Report comment
I’m also wondering why you wouldn’t have used a real footy?
I can promise you that if you were doing dinky 20 metre kicks into space against blokes who knew what they were doing you would have been thrashed.
May 4th 2010 @ 10:15pm
Midfielder said | May 4th 2010 @ 10:15pm | Report comment
We felt insulted it is so small no offence… it was a real come you dicks from the AFL blokes but old age and wisdom prevailed and we used a RL ball… besides we could all kick a RL ball and were unsure about the AFL ball
May 4th 2010 @ 10:48pm
Kurt said | May 4th 2010 @ 10:48pm | Report comment
Mid – congrats on playing three games of AFL – personally I always wanted to play Aussie Rules at the highest level but never made it beyond the lower reaches of the amateurs. But for you to have been picked up by an AFL club at your age is quite an achievement.
May 4th 2010 @ 11:00pm
Midfielder said | May 4th 2010 @ 11:00pm | Report comment
Kurt
In the pre-season we look for games to prepare for the season ahead… we have in recent years tried to play another code sorta of fun game when you run a bit of Chrismas cheer off… when we played the rugby old boys … we played touch, football and AFL … they were so bad at AFL we won to easy … so we challenged a just formed U 18 team AFL team who has a member who is the son of one of our players…
Any how we beat them even tho I gave some players almost 40 years start…
BUT being honest they were not that good (a tad to trusting, maybe respectful) an example I am about 5’4″ or lower and the guy marking me near the goal was about 6’6″ … the coach was yelling at him to stay with me … I said look you need to do what your coach wants and he is yelling at you to go and mark that other player so he is doubled marked… well he let me unmarked in front of goal … I got passed the ball and kicked it in…
After my third goal the 6’6″ kid said no I think he wants me to mark you… sorta says what they were like …
But back to the main idea is the looser buys the beer… so no still not picked for an AFL side
May 5th 2010 @ 1:18am
Kurt said | May 5th 2010 @ 1:18am | Report comment
No worries Mid, I was making an oblique reference to the fact that compeition name ‘AFL’ is also used to more generally describe the code, which can lead to some confusion. However this is a practice the AFL seems set on encouraging to I can’t really complain.
How’s the decision on sinking that old Frigate out your way going? Just got back from a couple of days diving in the Florida Keys, some amazing wreck diving there. Fortunately BP haven’t managed to destry that part of the coast yet, although the oil slick is on its way which will be a tragedy for the whole area.
May 5th 2010 @ 10:46am
Midfielder said | May 5th 2010 @ 10:46am | Report comment
Its all in court and community discussions…
I went and had a look at the site when those opposed held a protest meeting… and spoke to some locals who made some very good points…
They have a point in that it is being sunk to close to the beach … can they just take it out a bit more… it is very reasonable thing to ask and makes sense…
As it turns out the media even local … tend to play the wild card and say they do not want it … when in fact they do not want it were they plan to sink it… simply want it moved. Those opposed placed a buoy in the ocean were they plan to sink and it is way to close to the beach… moving it out another half KL makes a lot of sense… Very hard to see why the gov is being so dogmatic in placing it were they say they will…
May 4th 2010 @ 9:30pm
Mister Football said | May 4th 2010 @ 9:30pm | Report comment
That article was up on another thread. This is what I posted on that thread:
That Browning uses Tom Williams as an example shows what rubbish he’s talking (and I’m a bulldogs supporter).
Of St Kilda’s 7 goals on Friday night, four of them came directly from Tom Williams, either through skill errors, poor positioning or poor decision making.
He’s a wonderful athlete, and Ideally built for the modern game, but he has poor on field intelligence (which is understandable).
Also his kicking his ok over a 30 to 35m range (which is shortish), the minute he tries to spot someone up around 40 to 45m, he can’t hit the target (and in a game like Friday’s, to spray the ball just half a metre meant an instant turnover).
So on the one hand, he is build for the way the game was played on Friday (of which I’m not a big fan), but on the other hand, that sort of game will show up any lack of skill and poor decision making, because that’s where the goals are coming from (for the opposition).
Tom Williams, who converted in his teens, is actually a very good example as to why some of these other blokes will struggle.
If you can’t put the ball down someon’e throat at 45 metres with either foot, you’ll be found out.
Having said that, blokes like Dale Morris have become great stoppers without having good kicking skills – but he has a good understanding of the game, something Tom Williams still lacks in spades.
May 6th 2010 @ 11:49am
AndyRoo said | May 6th 2010 @ 11:49am | Report comment
The fact that he’s not a great kick and can’t read the game is a sign Hunt could make it.
By make it I mean play some games of AFL football and be selected in the 22 on merit.
After all Tom Williams has zero marketing worth but (probably thanks to unlimited interchange tilting the balance towards athletes) has played 40 or so games in the AFL and is likely to still be selected next week despite his deficiencies. The Bulldogs are a top 4 team so if Williams can play 40 games for them why couldn’t Hunt play that many for an expansion team.
May 6th 2010 @ 12:03pm
Redb said | May 6th 2010 @ 12:03pm | Report comment
There is a big difference with the Williams, Roberts-Thomsons and Jacks of the rugby L or U converts to AFL, they all had considerable time in development before making it to AFL level and even then contributing at AFL level at the standard required. Multiple years, not months.
Now Hunt and Folau maybe more gifted athletes , but the sport memory stuff takes time. Hunt is definitely more likely than Folau.
anyway its academic with Folau, won’t happen.
May 4th 2010 @ 1:24pm
Republican said | May 4th 2010 @ 1:24pm | Report comment
Lazza
I reckon you have hit the nail on the head!
Cheers
May 4th 2010 @ 3:05pm
Razzle said | May 4th 2010 @ 3:05pm | Report comment
Play him at full forward. They don’t have to run further than 50 metres at a time & are standing around fiddling with the fullback half the game anyway. Get free kicks if they fart.
BTW – how’s that kneeing in the balls incident on the weekend. Is that a fair cop in AFL? The weakest thing you can do to any man. Hell, I’ve never even seen that on a soccer pitch & those blokes are the biggest peacocks on earth.
Your game has travelled down a bad PC path on the field in recent years under Vladamir Demitriou IMO. Although, this incident is a step up from Peter Filandias bite on the scrote in 2002. How proud that must make supporters. Don’t even have the “balls” to punch a bloke ay more. Just knee him in the boys.
Pathetic.