Blacktown Stadium is a potential white elephant
Roar Guru
By rugbyfuture, 15 May 2010 rugbyfuture is a Roar Guru
- Tagged:
- blacktown stadium, football, homebush stadium, Rugby Union, RWC
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I take a keen approach to urban development in the Sydney metropolitan area, considering my education, work and leisure take me from north to south and east to west.
This is pushed further when one is able to see the short comings of various levels of government in approaching the development of Sydney in a sustainable fashion.
It saddens me now though to realise that even sports administrators, possibly some of the best managers of businesses in the country, are having similar issues in terms of development.
I talk, of course, about the proposed Blacktown stadium.
This stadium, built in the Blacktown Olympic precinct (originally designed for baseball and softball), next to the GWS training sites, will be nothing more than a waste of time, space and money, all of which could be dedicated to much more useful ideas.
So what’s my reasoning for this being so unsustainable – both economically and socially?
Think about this: a forty thousand seat stadium, put in Blacktown, the district between two districts (Parramatta and Penrith) next to a couple of training grounds, and in an area which is increasingly being gentrified and developed for residential living, with some parklands.
There will be no other sporting teams based in the area, other than possibly the new A-League side, the Sydney Rovers, who will have to be superseded by a localised Parramatta and Penrith side once the Sydney metropolitan area expands.
It will then be reduced to 26 000 seats – albeit at a time when it’s most probable that Parramatta and Penrith stadium capacities will be increased.
Not only is it noticeable, it’s been done before, albeit for a different sport, with similar distances from metropolitan areas.
Rugby hosted the RWC in Australia in 1987.
With this, a new stadium was built at the home of what is now West Harbour RFC, known as Waratah Stadium or Concord Oval. Seating twenty thousand people, it was close to smack bang between the major business districts of Sydney City and Parramatta City.
How much have you heard of it in the modern era of professional football? A couple of games early on with rugby league, but not much else.
This is what serves as a proof of concept for Blacktown Stadium. It will be slightly different, yes, but there are just too many comparisons to see the possibility (and very high one at that) that yet again, Sydney will have an unused stadium, choking the pockets of its creator.
It would be much better to spend on Parramatta, Penrith, or Homebush.
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Roo Star said | May 15th 2010 @ 6:19am | Report comment
All doom and gloom again about the WC bid. Can anyone who is not a football supporter wrtie something positive for once. Please!!!!!!!!
rugbyfuture said | May 15th 2010 @ 1:06pm | Report comment
i encourage the world cup bid and enjoy soccer and even played it for the first 8 years of my sporting career, just that the blacktown stadium idea is a dud
mds1970 said | May 15th 2010 @ 8:11am | Report comment
I’m inclined to agree. As we saw when Parramatta attempted to move their game against St George, they were unable to leave Parra Stadium; and even if they were to move blockbuster games elsewhere then Homebush would be a more attractive option.
I can’t see Penrith being interested. They have a pokie palace next door to their home ground the size of a major shopping centre – there’s more money for them in getting a 10,000 crowd and getting a few thousand of them to go next door to the club afterwards than there is in attempting to get a bigger crowd elsewhere.
Wests Tigers have too many home grounds elsewhere to spread themselves even more thinly with Blacktown.
Sydney Rovers may be interested in playing there, but they won’t need a big ground.
Ironically, the one team that may have an interest in a stadium there and could be a chance to make it viable is GWS. In happier times, it would have made more sense for soccer and AFL to pool their resources and to build a 40,000 capacity oval on the site of the GWS training venue; which would eliminate the need for the Showgrounds redevelopment and allow a stadium to be built that could host World Cup matches and remain commercially viable afterwards.
But alas, the World Cup bid has strained relationships between soccer and AFL, and especially between supporters of the two codes; and so such an idea is unliky to gain any traction.
Hansie said | May 15th 2010 @ 8:19am | Report comment
Exactly my reaction. After $300 million is spent and 3 or 4 World Cup matches are held there (in one of 3 World Cup Stadiums in Sydney), what use is the Stadium? How often are the Rovers going to pull crowds of 26,000? And why would the Rovers need a dedicated stadium when Western Sydney already has several rectangular stadiums of an appropriate capacity? Why would the RL teams play there? This Stadium has white elephant written all over it.
mds1970 said | May 15th 2010 @ 8:42am | Report comment
Exactly right.
As an example, Penrith Stadium currently holds 22,000. If the Panthers moved to Blacktown they could get another 4,000 in; at $25 a ticket they could make another $100,000 in gate takings. But by moving away from next door to the Leagues Club, they’d lose 1,000 people going into the club after the game and putting $100 through the pokies. So there’s no benefit to Penrith from moving there.
Robbo said | May 15th 2010 @ 9:36am | Report comment
Besides… it’s pretty rare that Penrith gets a full house as it is. Move it 20km away and that would be lower.
If you had a 26,000 all-seater at Campbelltown the Tigers would probably sell it out every other week.
Robbo said | May 15th 2010 @ 8:37am | Report comment
Build it in Campbelltown or not at all. No one wants to go near Blacktown with a 20 foot pole.
will said | May 15th 2010 @ 9:13am | Report comment
i agree, they should upgrade parramatta stadium rather than build a new one in blacktown
Midfielder said | May 15th 2010 @ 10:04am | Report comment
The Seekers had a hit with a song called … Someday One Day…
Well maybe some day one day … other code posters will find something positive about the WC bid as someone said earlier…
It is so frustrating to read such foolishness…
HHHHHHMMMMMMMmmmmmm AAAAAAAArrrrrrr it reminds me of how football would never get anyone to watch according to the media pre 2006 WC in Germany… today the Socceroos have come from nothing to the biggest sporting Brand in Australia…
RF you write off the Rovers …. this makes me laugh I realise you have no idea about WS …. Blacktown sits in the centre of WS … the reason why the AFL want to move their…
But there’s more in WS Football has over 100, 000 registered winter park players across five associations. WS has had 8 former NSL teams and currently 6 clubs in the state league (i.e. the level below A-League .. similar to Shute Shield teams).
NSW Football has always been at Blacktown ..Parklea actually and they are moving to Riverstone and are in the process of building a 40 million dollar training academy…
WS has produced more Socceroos than any other area in Australia…
But the best bit is … if you want a Super side in WS you will more than likely need a ground in the center of WS ….
As me old Great Grand Mother used to say … “”" for the love of Mary”"”"… I understand football 50 years of inept, corrupt, management … but for all that it still has more players than the other codes combined…
Do some proper research … and remember the Blacktown Demons are playing like at Shute Shield level and had played in the NSL for a few years…
Its just history repeating itself …. just like no one will watch the Socceroos … Ha … they should keep it at 41, 000….Blacktown has always been big on Football …. so has WS…
rugbyfuture said | May 15th 2010 @ 1:23pm | Report comment
all of that makes sense, i travel through western sydney every day and have a number of friends from the area, i do understand it. i also understand urban development. this is why i included concord oval. this is not an attack on the world cup bid, i encourage the world cup bid from the start, i even said at the start of the ground controversy that it would actually be a chance for the football codes to move to their traditional homes and allow the world cup to go ahead, i played soccer for a proud club and followed the northern spirit. sit back and relax, this isnt an attack on the world cup bid overall.
as for your reasoning that the area has a large number of juniors and the equivalent of a shute shield team their that is very similar to concord oval yet again. west harbour now play in an empty stadium, further destroying the (not so) good looks of parramatta road. im not completely writing off the rovers, i think they will be tremendously successful, but a stadium really cant be sustainable on one tenant and they way that sydney is expanding they will be Superceded meaning their will be too much to offer in western sydney to only have one team. And it is highly likely that two new teams in that area would be created an would gravitate towards the major metropolitan CBD’s.
There won’t ever be a super rugby side there, there won’t ever be an NRL side there. Riverstone is a bit further from blacktown than you might think.
Sydney already has too many stadiums which are unviable.
Corey said | May 18th 2010 @ 12:19am | Report comment
Mate, this isn’t an attack on the bid, but an attack on the arena it will be held in. How many League fans do you hear whinge about Homebush! It looks outdated and is never close to capacity except for GF’s and Origin. No one wants the stadium there and if NRL clubs had their own stadium they wouldn’t use it. Even the SFS is ugly when only 15k fill it. Upgrade a current stadium, Rovers could play at Campelltown or in Penrith.
Also, I think the Wallabies still sell more jersey’s and merch than the Socceroos, but that is another debate and forever another statistician to prove.
Ben of Phnom Penh said | May 15th 2010 @ 10:24am | Report comment
“There will be no other sporting teams based in the area, other than possibly the new A-League side, the Sydney Rovers, who will have to be superseded by a localised Parramatta and Penrith side once the Sydney metropolitan area expands.”
Que?
Timmuh said | May 15th 2010 @ 10:48am | Report comment
What he is saying is that eventually Western Sydney will support two A-League teams, one in Penrith and one in Parramatta. And that if that happened there would be no use for a Blacktown stadium.
I’m not so sure I agree on two fronts. A third Sydney team could quite likely be placed in the south-west, which thanks to Sydney’s horrid transport and road systems is far enough from the “west” to constitute a separate, albeit more difficult, market in its own right. And secondly, there woiuld be no reason why if there were separate Penrith and Parramatta A-League teams they couldn’t both play at Blacktown, maintaining a pristine surface unavailable on grounds shared with RL.
Whether or not FIFA are prepared to bend the guidelines and allow three stadia in Sydney is another matter entirely.
Joh4Canberra said | July 3rd 2010 @ 12:02pm | Report comment
Why do we need to get FIFA to bend the rules? All we have to do is nominate the city of Blacktown as a host city in its own right. Sydney can be one host city, Blacktown another host city.
Farqwar said | May 15th 2010 @ 10:30am | Report comment
I disagree. This stadium is in a good spot for soccer. I would actually prefer that Rugby League doesnt play there. Soccer need purpose built stadiums that can prepare and maintain a quality pitch.
I think you guys are under estimating the future growth of soccer. By the time this stadium is built, the Sydney Rovers will be averaging as many if not more than Penrith or Parramatta League teams. If they can have their own stadium why can’t soccer? Would be a good venue for Asian qualifiers also.
AndyRoo said | May 15th 2010 @ 10:52am | Report comment
Blacktown just seems a dud spot compared to say Parramatta which has much better public transport.
Midfielder said | May 15th 2010 @ 11:02am | Report comment
Simply wrong Andy…Blacktown stadium in terms of WS is close to the perfect location… including public transport … it also boarders a number of major roads..
Farqwar said | May 15th 2010 @ 11:05am | Report comment
Would be a good spot to get to by car from anywhere in Western Sydney as it is beside the M7. There is a train line running right beside it so they could eventually build a station. For now, though, Blacktown Railway station has a big bus interchange so shuttle buses wouldn’t be too hard to organise, not sure how long the walk is but a couple of roadies could make it an option.
I tend to think Parramatta is too close to the city. SFS, Blacktown, Derbies at Homebush, sounds good to me.
Chris said | May 15th 2010 @ 11:56am | Report comment
Rovers will be lucky to average 10,000. Parramatta Stadium would be absolutely perfect for them (as would CUA or Campbelltown). If they do get decent crowds (and you are delusional if you think they will) then why not play at ANZ Stadium?
Blacktown is a hole in the middle of bloody nowhere.
Farqwar said | May 15th 2010 @ 12:29pm | Report comment
Why is it delusional to think a team in the “heartland” of Football wouldn’t be able to average 10 000. As Midfielder said there are over 100 000 registered players in WS.
Sydney FC averages about as many as your average Sydney League team and they do this without FTA coverage, with 1/20th the media coverage and in a league that, admittedley has a long way to go in terms of on field product, not to mention, in the face of people like yourself, who are openly hostile to the game.
Rugby League will always be strong in Sydney/Brisbane but the future is (Soccer)Football. I think you are being delusional if you can’t see this.
Cambelltown and Penrith aren’t an option, they are too localised. Somene from the North West won’t travel to Cambelltown. Blacktown is where all the transport junctions meet in Western Sydney.
Parramatta is a good option if we fail to secure the bid.
Chris said | May 15th 2010 @ 1:10pm | Report comment
I am mostly basing that on the pathetic crowd (8,000) Sydney FC got for the game they played in the West. Hopefully that was down to Sydney FC being perceived as “upper class yuppies” and not a lack of A-League support. If a few things fall into place (including a good WC Result for Australia and a decent first season) then they might average 15,000+, but I just can’t see it happening.
“Rugby League will always be strong in Sydney/Brisbane but the future is (Soccer)Football. I think you are being delusional if you can’t see this.” – People have been saying that for 50 years. It hasn’t happened. Last night the NRL got it’s second highest regular season crowd in Sydney EVER. In 1994 it was apparently inevitable that Soccer would overtake NFL. 16 years later and MSL crowds have gone up by less than 5%.
By your logic Rugby Union’s international presence would have obliterated RL in Sydney years ago…
In any case Blacktown is a glorified shanty town. Penrith, Parramatta and Campbelltown are not only much nicer looking, they already have stadium infrastructure that could cater for the Rovers.
Sam said | May 15th 2010 @ 4:02pm | Report comment
“By your logic Rugby Union’s international presence would have obliterated RL in Sydney years ago…”
What a few test matches against New Zealand, South Africa and some British nations plus France. Any other nations just don’t care enough. That’s not much to get excited about. That’s not much better than rugby league’s international presence.
Anthony said | May 16th 2010 @ 9:11am | Report comment
38,000 on Friday night was a Sydney NRL record? There were more than that in Brisbane! This article is the most sensible I have heard yet on this topic. Soccer is the most popular football code amongst children – but it never translates into significant attendances at A-league/NSL games.
juju said | June 16th 2010 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
“Penrith, Parramatta and Campbelltown are not only much nicer looking”
Haven’t been to Campbelltown or Parra in a bit then?
Seems you just have an irrational dislike of Blacktown.
Akazie said | May 15th 2010 @ 1:10pm | Report comment
lol Farqwar
Sydney FC’ s crowd averages of 12,987 against the Sydney NRL clubs for this season are in front of Cronulla only who have won 2 games in their last 17 going all the way back to this time last year and they are only just beating their average of 11,609.
You said that the Rovers will average more than Penrith and Parramatta as well, yet atm, Parramatta are averaging 21,232 while Penrith is at 13,850 with a whole lot of form showing which will make penriths average only head one way, and that’s north.
Good luck lol.
Canterbury @ 17,989 and that’s without the 38,000 that turned up last night.
Manly @15,033 playing their big rivals in Parra on Monday, it’ll head North.
Souths @ 19,154
St George Illa @ 19,362
Wests Tigers @ 19,783
Eastern Suburbs @ 12,978 oops, Sydney FC are in front of them too by haha 19 people a match, yet the Roosters still have a fair few big games to play.
You sure the soccer is going to do what you said it would in regards to Rugby League?
All I see if RL figures growing while the A League is quickly becoming version 2 of the old NSL.
JamesP said | May 15th 2010 @ 3:47pm | Report comment
Don’t forget the Swans who average more than anyone at about 30k
MV Dave said | May 15th 2010 @ 3:56pm | Report comment
After 10 years the Swans were barley averaging 10,000 and thats with all the money poured in to make it work. Lets see how the Sydeny teams are going after 10 years of existence.
Akazie said | May 15th 2010 @ 3:57pm | Report comment
Yeah and get as many watching them on TV.
Anthony said | May 16th 2010 @ 9:39am | Report comment
It all fades in the glory of AFL
True Tah said | May 17th 2010 @ 8:35am | Report comment
“Sydney FC averages about as many as your average Sydney League team”
This is rubbish, the Tigers, Dogs, Bunnies all average over 20K thus far this season.
Sydney FC average around 12K, the only Sydney NRL club which draws smaller crowds are the Sharks.
Farqwar said | May 18th 2010 @ 10:35am | Report comment
Sydney FC average past 5 seasons = 14 675
Parramatta Eels average past 5 seasons = 14 326
Penrith Panthers average past 5 years = 12 761
Maybe this season will show an increase for league crowds but it will just be an anomaly unless they can sustain it for a period of time.
Sydney FC was averaging around 16 000 in its first three seasons, the board made some very poor decisions and the crowds dropped off, expect to see them increase this year.
I dont think my claim of averaging about the same as your average Sydney League team is rubbish at all. Come and see me in 5 years when you have some long term averages to back up your story.
Akazie said | May 15th 2010 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
If RL doesn’t play there it will be a white elephant.
Son of a Gun said | May 15th 2010 @ 1:27pm | Report comment
It would make sense to utilise it year round, who would play there ?.
Akazie said | May 15th 2010 @ 1:30pm | Report comment
I think the Doggies should look at it but they should keep the capacity around 40k as local derbies and semis would fill it every time.
rugbyfuture said | May 15th 2010 @ 1:34pm | Report comment
way out of the dogs area
Akazie said | May 15th 2010 @ 1:39pm | Report comment
Yeah true, but better than playing at that soul less ANZ.
Andrew said | May 15th 2010 @ 3:29pm | Report comment
Would prefer the cambo option, with the Dogs and Tigers taking games there. I am sure the Tigers would play most of there games there, with the Dogs taking 3-4 games a season out that way.
Sydney Rovers can then look at splitting there games between Cambo and Parra stadiums, thus taping into both markets adequately.
It’s also got to be cheaper for all clubs involved to ground share. Stadiums need matches to be profitable, and having the whole winter with no matches (well maybe NSW State League Soccer, but that is hardly going to get the crowds through that would pay the bills) is such a silly idea. Seems like an idea straight out of the NSW Labor party.
Ken said | May 15th 2010 @ 8:52pm | Report comment
The reason they play at ANZ is money only – ANZ has always given great deals to the clubs, they make more money having games there than the suburban grounds even with lower crowds. I think it’s due to a continuing worry that the Olympic precinct will be dubbed a white elephant if there isn’t something on every weekend.
I can’t see any reason that the Dogs or the Tigers would go even futher away from their areas unless they are absolutely throwing money at them.
Dogs Of War said | May 15th 2010 @ 9:05pm | Report comment
Ken, no teams get lower crowds there. The Bulldogs average more than any other Sydney team now that the support base is used to the venue. I believe the same will happen to Souths given a few more years, while the Tigers should have never moved to the SFS or else they would be reaping the same benefits as the Bulldogs by now. It’s not just about money at the venue either, the alternate grounds just don’t offer the same facilities, and for traditionalists, they think it’s great sitting on the hill, but for most of us, we want modern toilets and other creature comforts which ANZ offers.
As much as some say it’s soulless, I don’t find that. It has it’s own ambiance, and really teams can’t afford to turn down the casual supporters who are more likely to attend a game at somewhere like ANZ than they are to go to a suburban ground which just doesn’t offer the same amenities and transport options as ANZ does.
Akazie said | May 15th 2010 @ 9:10pm | Report comment
dogs, the bullies are a few hundred in front of parra because of last nights big match, think about it
Dogs Of War said | May 15th 2010 @ 9:27pm | Report comment
Parra’s best crowd this season was at ANZ (31K.)
Bulldogs best crowd was at ANZ last night (38K).
These are the sorts of crowds that will make the divide between teams like the Sharks, that much greater as they just can’t make up the difference in money that is generated by clubs like the Bulldogs. More stadium consolidation is required.
Dragons & Sharks should be looking at ground sharing, make OKI a 35K stadium. Teams really need to look at what best financially, and how some teams are going about it at the moment, will see those teams over the next 5-10 years just fall so far behind that they will die.
Akazie said | May 15th 2010 @ 9:38pm | Report comment
Have a agree with that dogs.
But there is one thing people always forget, any team in Sydney is capable of averaging 17k+, every team has before so that tells me there is a lot more support out there than we see week to week.
Mark V said | May 15th 2010 @ 11:42am | Report comment
If blacktown Stadium (with Football+League as tenants all year round) will be a white elephant.
what is the 45K gold coast stadium to be called then? A ghost elephant stadium perhaps!
Son of a Gun said | May 15th 2010 @ 12:38pm | Report comment
After the initial rise in crowds i would say that 10k is pretty good, would be suprised if they average more.
Farqwar said | May 15th 2010 @ 12:57pm | Report comment
Yeah, as I said, about the same as your average League team is a good and realistic expectation.
Chris said | May 15th 2010 @ 1:14pm | Report comment
“about the same as your average League team” – even Cronulla averages 11,000. So if you mean “about the same as the worst NRL team minus 1000″ you are spot on.
That said – if they can score the ultimate coup and secure Kewell then they would average 20,000+ no worries in their first season.
Farqwar said | May 15th 2010 @ 1:35pm | Report comment
Well I actually think SFC and Rovers will be averaging between 15 and 20 000 before too long, how were the Rugby League averages after 5 years?
The code wars have certainly helped the League attendances this year and good on ‘em (go Tiges!). Storm gate has helped Melbourne too. But Football only needs to support 1 or 2 teams in each city as it is a national comp. Sydney is more than capable of accommodating 2 teams.
I’ll leave the code wars for AFL and League, I was just saying that there is enough support fo Football to accommodate a stadium in Blacktown. Football will only grow, with a national and international market to expand into. I never said it would knock off RL, I just think it will take its place amongst the other codes and be averaging 15-20000 before long.
Perhaps you don’t see things the same way as me, thats fine.
Akazie said | May 15th 2010 @ 1:43pm | Report comment
No problems, I read what you said earlier as Soccer will take over RL in Sydney which I’ve read countless times.
The NRL crowds are heading north thanks to club memberships, and it will only increase in my opinion over the next 5/10 years.
Chris said | May 15th 2010 @ 1:45pm | Report comment
Newsflash mate – Soccer didn’t just appear in Australia five years ago. There is no evidence that A-League crowds are rising (in fact they just hit a new low last season).
Akazie said | May 15th 2010 @ 1:49pm | Report comment
I was just thinking the same thing after I had already posted Chris.
The A League is the same as the NRL and AFL, just another name with different teams.
It’s been played out here for 100 years, teams have come and gone, some survive, that’s exactly what the AFL and NRL went through from their original state leagues.
Farqwar said | May 15th 2010 @ 2:13pm | Report comment
Are you being serious? I haven’t got time to go into a history of soccer in Australia.
I will just say, support for (Soccer)Football in Australia would rival that of league, whether you can turn that into support for the A-League is the test.
I cant wait to watch Sydney FC defend their title next year then play in the Asian Champions League. So if every one is loving their code and they are all booming, then everyones a winner!
Akazie said | May 15th 2010 @ 1:15pm | Report comment
Yep, they’ll do well to match the average Sydney League team with around 20,000 a match.