Luckless ‘Roos need to learn tricks of trade
Roar Pro By Dejan Kalinic, 20 Jun 2010 Dejan Kalinic is a Roar Pro
- Tagged:
- 2010 World Cup, football, Ghana, Harry Kewell, Socceroos, socceroos vs ghana, World Cup
Related coverage
- Football news
- Socceroos news
- Socceroos Fixtures news
- World Cup Favourites news
- World Cup Roar of the Crowd Competition news
- Football World Cup - South Africa 2010 news
- Socceroos 2014 FIFA World Cup Qualifying news
As the Socceroos battled out a courageous draw with Ghana that all but ended their World Cup, a lesson of tricks of the trade must surely be considered in the near future.
No one likes it, but diving and refereeing are part and parcel of football that must be effectively utilized on the pitch.
Australia was the better team, with 11 and 10 men on the pitch against a side they should feel they should have beaten.
But the stark contrast could be seen throughout the encounter.
We may call using the following methods as un-Australian, but this is football and if you want to win, as every Australian does, it’s time to put these into place.
The first example came early on as golden boy Harry Kewell beat his marker in the area before tangling feet with his opponent.
No penalty. Fair enough. But were there protests from the Australians? Only from Harry, who was attempting to utilize his experience.
On 24 minutes, when the man himself was dealt a cruel blow on his goal line, things were different.
The ball struck Harry’s arm, yes, but the Ghanaian players ran to the referee and demanded a red card.
They got it.
Whether it was or not is open for discussion, but had Kewell been in another area in the box, it would have been a yellow, and outside of the box, probably nothing.
He may have denied a clear goal, but his arms were up against his body the whole time.
I’m no judge, but FIFA will more than likely approve the referee’s decision.
But when Ghana’s Lee Addy brought Mark Bresciano down with a crude tackle on half way, protests were somewhat muted by the Aussies.
It was late, from behind, and could have caused serious injury.
A Ghanaian midfielder was seen clasping his hands in a praying motion to the referee. Yellow card.
The missing Kewell may have been the number one speaker on this occasion, but the other experienced heads in the side should have been up in arms.
They should have remembered teammate Tim Cahill was sent off for a challenge nowhere near as reckless as this one.
Differences throughout were in challenges across the ground.
Late in the game, Josh Kennedy should have felt obliged to drop to his knees in protest of a foul in the air.
He didn’t and the ball went up the other end for a Ghanaian striker to suffer the same treatment, falling over and winning the free kick in a dangerous position.
It happened throughout, be it aerially or not.
Early in the first half, the impressive Brett Holman had his opportunity to go tumbling to the ground on the left hand side after another late challenge.
He didn’t.
In a gutsy performance, the Aussies deserved more.
They now rely on Ghana beating Germany and they beating Serbia – without Kewell and Moore, with Cahill returning.
This might not be the way we play football, but is it time to think about it?
Recommend this story.
The Turkey 10
The Turkey 10 teams have now been selected, as Wild Turkey Bourbon's sport sponsorship kicks into the next exciting phase.
Choose which side you're going to support and get in the running to win $2,500!
Simply visit Wild Turkey Australia on Facebook for your chance to win.
Find out more.
- Explore:
- 2010 World Cup, football, Ghana, Harry Kewell, Socceroos, socceroos vs ghana, World Cup
June 20th 2010 @ 1:03pm
Victer said | June 20th 2010 @ 1:03pm | Report comment
We didn’t win because Wilkshere didn’t take his chance. Above all football is a game of taking your chances, those who do usually win. We didn’t
June 20th 2010 @ 1:26pm
Mister Football said | June 20th 2010 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
This article is basically encouraging the Socceroos to do something that is already far too prevalent, dropping to the knees at every opportunity.
It’s a sad indictment on the modern state of soccer that that is deemed necessary.
It’s a sad indictment on a game that it is far more advantageous to go to ground than keep your feet.
June 20th 2010 @ 1:38pm
Art Sapphire said | June 20th 2010 @ 1:38pm | Report comment
Its a sad indictment that you mercilessly bash the code at every opportunity.
June 20th 2010 @ 2:31pm
Mister Football said | June 20th 2010 @ 2:31pm | Report comment
I’ve expressed the opinion that soccer players go to ground far too easily, and they do it because it’s advantageous to do so. Now someone has pointed out that this article is more about apeals rather than the blight of going to ground – but I would say they are flip sides of the same coin.
People can respond in a number of ways:
1. Say it’s not true (would be very hard to argue that on an Australian forum, although you might be able to do it succesfully on an Uruguayan forum);
2. Agree, but argue that it doesn’t distract from the game one bit; or
3. Agree and discuss further.
June 20th 2010 @ 1:56pm
betty b said | June 20th 2010 @ 1:56pm | Report comment
maybe I’ve read a different article to you Mr Football, but I thought Dejan was talking about appeals to the ref. Dives – now that’s a different thing altogether. I’d like to hear Dejan’s view on dives. My view is that Australians – with our rough-house rugby, afl and play fair culture – would walk away from the sport in droves if that became part of our game plan.
June 20th 2010 @ 2:20pm
Dejan Kalinic said | June 20th 2010 @ 2:20pm | Report comment
thanks Betty.
Appeals, not diving – sorry I use the term loosely.
Also, going to ground when you cop some sort of contact, unfortunately every nation/club does it. Not diving without contact.
Dasilva’s ‘stats’ below, not sure how much you can read into it – players gaining yards during throw ins – laughable. EVERY player does it.
I thought this was a question to be raised – playing and winning or playing with fairness and integrity?
At a function – great to see many blurry eyed people.
June 20th 2010 @ 2:30pm
dasilva said | June 20th 2010 @ 2:30pm | Report comment
It’s really just a joke
Each crime is weighted according to the serious of the offence.
So a yard steal is only worth 2 points. whilst a diving is worth 5
In any case Lucas Neill is our highest Australian representative ranking number 51 in the most cheating player in the World Cup (2 cynical fouls and an injury feign). Really that’s pretty tame stuff from the Socceroos and we are clearly behind the rest of the world in terms of cheating.
Nothing compared to cristiano ronaldo who in one match got 5 dives, one invisible card waving (trying to get the referee to bring out a card), one injury feign which was a cheater of the match performance
June 20th 2010 @ 2:23pm
dasilva said | June 20th 2010 @ 2:23pm | Report comment
“No one likes it, but diving and refereeing are part and parcel of football that must be effectively utilized on the pitch.”
His article didn’t concentrate that much on diving but he did advocate diving at the beginning of the article
If you want a devil’s advocate view of diving here it is
http://www.theroar.com.au/2008/11/08/the-other-side-of-diving/
However, looking at diving in a cold dispassionate way will reveal that diving is only considered a yellow card offense. This puts diving on par with time wasting, a miss-timed challenge, swearing and taking off your shirt while celebrating a goal. It’s also considered a more minor offense then denying a goal scoring opportunity, handball to prevent the ball going into your own goal and a reckless tackle.
Nations from different cultural backgrounds can logically state that diving is just a misdemeanour as the rules of the game clearly states.
June 20th 2010 @ 7:11pm
Dejan Kalinic said | June 20th 2010 @ 7:11pm | Report comment
I don’t mean diving as in taking a fall when there’s no contact. I mean going to ground when a player has stuck his foot out, like other countries do, instead of staying on your feet and taking some “advantage”.
It probably means throwing yourself forward when in an aerial challenge, especially when you are lone man up front.
A set piece could be vital.
Aside from my opinion, I’d love to hear if people want or wouldn’t mind seeing the Socceroos be a bit more intimdating to the referee and win some of these fouls.
My opinion is mine, I want to hear others.
June 20th 2010 @ 7:23pm
dasilva said | June 20th 2010 @ 7:23pm | Report comment
Maybe it’s the idealism in me. I just think that we have to play fairly and be good role models. After all we are spreading the socceroos brand and we want to be known as a team that plays fairly.
The game needs to change rather then us giving up and get attracted to the dangerous vice of the game.
The honourable way is always the harder way in life but in the end it’s the right way of playing.
Personally intimidating referee is a no-go. Australia has a major problem with referee retentions and this is a problem that affects pretty much every code in Australia. The main reason is because of the abuse they get at the grass roots. People wonder why the standard of refereeing in Australia is poor, well if half of the pool of potential referees quit the game due to their abuse from fans and players then how can we expect excellence from them. WE have to set a good role models for the youths if that’s going to improve.
Accentuating contacts – I can accept that as a short term solution. However the aim should be campaigning to trying to change the rules of the game to create disincentives to diving (or video replays) and get referees to award free kicks for players who still stand on their feet.
June 20th 2010 @ 7:49pm
Andyroo said | June 20th 2010 @ 7:49pm | Report comment
I also agree with Dasilva.
I will add that intimdating the referee and other dirty targets only give a small advatage when dealing with decent refs and I would rather be proud of the team than beat Bahrain away from home or lose in the round of 16.
We are still a developing nation so when we get to the point we have the cattle to challenge for the world cup then might be the time to “give up” waiting for FIFA to do anything and reconsider the cheating option.
The Americans are also pretty furious (if you read CCN online) so if FIFA goes ahead and gives the 2022 World Cup to Qatar maybe we could get together and orgainsie a split. No more Euro/ Sth America “cheating is ok” bs…. as long as we make it clear “no timeouts” I would rather the game be run by American Soccer fans than Sepp Blatter.
June 20th 2010 @ 1:59pm
dasilva said | June 20th 2010 @ 1:59pm | Report comment
To be honest Art
he has a point
Video referee could be introduced to stamp out diving (every penalty or goal can be reviewed by a video ref)
Putting time limits on people getting stretched off ( can’t go back on the field after 5 minutes) could solve some issues with injury feigns
Apparently 15 years a go referee used to give penalties for fouls when the player still stayed on their feets. IF they still do that, there would be less incentive to dive.
An alternative would be to change the rules of penalties. Whether any foul that denies a clear cut goal scoring opportunities is a penalty irrespective whether it’s inside the box or outside (so the last man cynical foul should be a penalty). Any foul that doesn’t deny a clear cut goal scoring opportunities inside the box would be a free kick from the spot of the foul (although if it was inside the inner keeper box where the goal kick should be taken, that would be a penalty). Therefore there will be less incentives to dive (although a free kick inside the box would still be advantageous) as you can only get a penalty when you are clear through to the goal (so why dive when you can score yourself)
Really this issues have been going on for a long time but FIFA sits on their arses and do nothing about it.
June 20th 2010 @ 2:11pm
dasilva said | June 20th 2010 @ 2:11pm | Report comment
Anyway for people who are frustrated with unsporting activity
Have a look at this website http://www.fantasycheatersleague.com/
Pick your teams of the best cheater.
the blog goes into comic detail the unsporting activity of every match with the “Cheat Of The Match” award
Anyway the stats have it
Kewell (yeah I did saw him dived in that match), Josh Kennedy and Wilkshire dived once
Grella and Lucas Neill had one injury feign
Emerton, Wilkshire and Kewell had a handball
Holman, Cahill, Valeri, Emerton had one cynical foul. Lucas Neill had two cynical fouls
Scott Chipperfield had one yard steal (players gaining a few yards when taking a throw-in or a free kick)
So who said Australian don’t cheat?
June 20th 2010 @ 2:22pm
Mister Football said | June 20th 2010 @ 2:22pm | Report comment
das
that’s actually pretty mild in comparison to most teams.
I wonder how the aptly namd Chilean, Ponce, went?
Suarez must be right up there as well.
June 20th 2010 @ 2:42pm
dasilva said | June 20th 2010 @ 2:42pm | Report comment
yeah Australia was quite mild in the cheaters ranking with the highest ranking to Lucas Neill who was 51
Suarez is number 1 on the list with 6 dives, 1 injury feign, 1 utter filth (really serious unsporting activity, that was for getting the keeper send off) and two cheaters of the match performance.
Ponce didn’t cheat at all at the world Cup
However Alexis “Dirty” Sanchez showed how he got his nicknamed by being ranked number 4 at the list.
June 20th 2010 @ 7:18pm
Andyroo said | June 20th 2010 @ 7:18pm | Report comment
Great site Desilva.
I think Blatter is in for a shock if thinks he is leaving a great legacy. if the next guy actualy brings in technology in a non obtrusive way I am sure it would most people will relaise Blatter was dill for not being able to work it out.
June 20th 2010 @ 4:39pm
Nakal said | June 20th 2010 @ 4:39pm | Report comment
If soccer is about diving, throwing tantrums and acting then why bother choosing skilful defenders and strikers, why not go to the school of arts and gets some actors??? This is where soccer is falling down big time.. it needs to clean up the game and get rid of this acting mentality. When is FIFA going to join the 20th century, let alone 21st and use modern technology and maybe 2 refs, and give the linesmen eye tests? 1 ref was fine in the days of Pele and Johnny Warren but nowadays soccer is big bucks and that brings out the cheats big time eg Maradona & Thierry Henry… when blatant fouls like this and obvious incorrect decisions are being made eg USA disallowed goal, then something is really wrong with soccer. When will FIFA wakeup??
June 20th 2010 @ 7:16pm
Dejan Kalinic said | June 20th 2010 @ 7:16pm | Report comment
Good call on FIFA – cheats need to be highlighted and punished. But what do you do to Henry? He handled, his team qualified. At the end of the day, HE has done what HIS TEAM needed HIM to do. Not good for the game, but good for France (at the time)
But I completely disagree with the acting comparison. You need class players to draw fouls (Messi) regardless of what position they are on the pitch.
You need other players to make sure the referee is watching closely – seeing the tackles flying in etc (dare I mention Muscat, or … the entire Manchester United team as well as their boss – who does it pre and post games)
June 20th 2010 @ 10:22pm
dasilva said | June 20th 2010 @ 10:22pm | Report comment
When it comes to stuff like hands of Henry.
The sooner they bring in video referees the better. http://www.theroar.com.au/2010/04/03/should-football-have-video-referees/
Having the video referees to review every goal, penalty and red cards would not just improves decision making and prevent errors in game, it would also help with the diving issue, it also makes the linesmen more willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking side.
June 20th 2010 @ 8:29pm
manny said | June 20th 2010 @ 8:29pm | Report comment
Not really sure that the ‘tricks of the trade’ were the difference, Dejan. And Im not sure if its worth investing much into it.
Ignoring all this stuff about the ref, we had our chances and didn’t take them. Wilkshire, Chipperfield and Kennedy. Not sure having an extra player on the pitch, or a few more ‘tricks’ would’ve seen them convert one of those chances.
June 20th 2010 @ 10:14pm
Dejan Kalinic said | June 20th 2010 @ 10:14pm | Report comment
The Socceroos were the better side. With 11 men and with 10. Ghana was rattled.
But I’m wondering if this is perhaps something to look at in the near future. Do you think it wouldn’t be beneficial or do you believe it’s not the right way to go about it?
June 20th 2010 @ 10:36pm
sheek said | June 20th 2010 @ 10:36pm | Report comment
In a reply to Dejan near the beginning of replies, I argue that it’s important for players to stay on their feet as often & as long as possible, with only the ball in mind, & the opportunity that might lie ahead. This applies to defence as well as attack.
Too often I’ve seen players diving to milk a penalty/free kick, while had they stayed on their feet, they might have capitalised on an opportunity. If you’re putting your thought & energy into milking a dive, then I reckon you’re missing an opportunity elsewhere.
Australians have this reputation of being physically crude, & the refs penalise us accordingly. Into the future, we will develop our technical ability.
In the future, the Aussies might develop a reputation of staying on their feet at all times, at all costs. The refs might then penalise the opposition accordingly.
Perception, it seems, is everything…..
June 20th 2010 @ 10:48pm
Dejan Kalinic said | June 20th 2010 @ 10:48pm | Report comment
Sheek, I understand what you are saying.
I refer more to the touchy tackles – where there is an option to go down because you have been “tripped”. Many World Cup players are really good at going down – should the Aussies?
Not so much diving to win a foul that isn’t there – one that is there, but isn’t paid unless you fall.
Spot on with the reputation – probably a discussion for another day but – has it been costly? Did it cost Cahill? The tackles in some of the lead-up games? Are the refs watchful when it comes to the Socceroos?
June 20th 2010 @ 10:51pm
dasilva said | June 20th 2010 @ 10:51pm | Report comment
From PIERLUIGI COLLINA
“As a referee, you need to look at player performance – knowing how a team plays, which runs players like to make – little details like this helps you perform better. ”
That New Zealand friendly bit us in the arse. I’m quite sure the refs saw that game and look at the challenge Cahill and Grella made and reacted accordingly.
Referees research teams before they adjudicate the match
Similarly in the last world cup. They saw the friendly against Netherlands and saw Luke Wilkshire horrid challenge that injured the player and got him sent off. After the match the manager of Netherlands were livid and accused Australia of treating the match as a World Cup final rather then a friendly (They don’t know how to say the word friendly indeed)
June 20th 2010 @ 11:00pm
Dejan Kalinic said | June 20th 2010 @ 11:00pm | Report comment
Managerial games.
Damn silly challenges they were too.
Dasilva – how’d you rate Culina’s game last night? I thought Valeri was good – just looking at team without Grella.
June 20th 2010 @ 11:11pm
dasilva said | June 20th 2010 @ 11:11pm | Report comment
Honestly, I thought Culina was the weakest link of the Socceroos and I felt he gave the ball away in dangerous position in our own half about 2-3 times in this match due to his shaky passing.
Something in me tells me that he left PSV Eindhoven one year too early.
Apparently Mile Jedinak had a great season for Antalyaspor and I would consider replacing Culina with him. Jedinak is pretty good at handling the physical challenges and winning the ball although there is question marks over his distribution but I think he’s improve alot in that.
He also be good for set pieces as well (he scored 5 goals last season, about 3 of them from free kicks). If Bresciano free kick is the way to go (low and try to fool the keeper with tricky bounce due to the jabilani). Then Jedinak would be a good option as he pretty much scored 3 goals like that for his club. Pretty much a low powerful shot forcing a keepers error.
June 20th 2010 @ 11:20pm
Dejan Kalinic said | June 20th 2010 @ 11:20pm | Report comment
Great. Thought Culina was poor too .. got better as the game went on but never reached any great standard.
He lost a bit of confidence too I think because the vast majority of his passes went backwards after his first couple of errors.
Wouldn’t mind seeing Jedinak but feel Verbeek has soft spot for Culina.
Agree on Jabulani. Curling free kicks will be difficult to score – it’s going to be the powerful shot ala Bresciano.Whether it’s goal keeper error as fumble last night or keeper completely misreading it – possibilities.
I think keeper’s own worst enemy – thinking too much about the ball and not enough about how to make a successful save (or parry away from goal rather than directly in front).
Was surprised by Wilkshire (despite what Basheer said) – thought he had one of his poorer games of the last month or so (which has been high standard). His defensive work was below his best although set pieces still crucial.
June 20th 2010 @ 11:46pm
dasilva said | June 20th 2010 @ 11:46pm | Report comment
I thought Wilkshire played pretty well but a made a key mistakes for the goal when he was out-muscled by Anew.
After that, he responded very well and was solid both in defence and in attack.
I felt he only made two mistakes the entire match. Unfortunately the first one led to us conceding a goal and the 2nd mistake stopped us from winning the match (the one on one chance with the keeper)
June 20th 2010 @ 10:58pm
sheek said | June 20th 2010 @ 10:58pm | Report comment
Dejan,
No, unless it’s unavoidable or the player is injured, attempt to stay on your feet at all costs. Players can train to do this. If you start relying on the ref to award you free kicks/penalties, he mightn’t. And you might also have let another opportunity slip by.
Perhaps I’m being naive myself, but I truly believe this.
However, the inconsistency & incompetence of the refereeing is a massive problem. Every nation is a victim of it, we all take our turns. This is a problem FIFA must address.
And even the refs from the major European leagues, where you would expect them to be more capable, are prone to major errors.
But exactly how you improve the overall refereeing quality, I’m not sure, since FIFA isn’t exactly noble themselves. Perhaps cynically on my part, the refereeing merely reflects the same inconsistency & incompetence of FIFA themselves….. !!!
June 20th 2010 @ 11:04pm
Dejan Kalinic said | June 20th 2010 @ 11:04pm | Report comment
I’d say most players – in Australia – are taught to stay on their feet. Overseas – good question.
Not naive, very worthy argument. I just feel watching this tournament the player who falls gets rewarded. Shame? Maybe. But it protects the best to an extent.
Inconsistencies between referees I don’t mind too much because they are all different, but inconsistencies during the game are shocking. See Germany-Serbia I guess?
USA most hard done by team thus far no doubt.
June 20th 2010 @ 11:35pm
Midfielder said | June 20th 2010 @ 11:35pm | Report comment
Sheek
Sometimes there is line between incompetent and rigid and inconsistency…
Tennis and golf have very easy rigid rules… hard to get them wrong .. OK a missed call but overall difficult…
RU is lucky that in the main the ref’s all come from a similar background i.e. ANGLO and often private school .. yet still mistakes occur…
Football has people from all over the world and they all have their own take on what they see… the Germany ref’s allow shoulder to shoulder other countries do not…
I am not trying to defend more explain why ref’s from different parts of the world can vary…
I think the major cause of concern is this in Football a ref may make 60 calls during a match and only if a call leads to a goal or a goal not being allowed is much attention paid… the low scoring nature of the game means the player or ref that made the mistake is blamed… it’s part of the game…
June 20th 2010 @ 11:42pm
Dejan Kalinic said | June 20th 2010 @ 11:42pm | Report comment
Midfielder,
You see a contrast if you watch Asian football and then watch European football. Good point.
First we’ve heard from you – what do you think about using the ref and/or going down for free kicks?
Part of the game? Part of the Socceroos’ game? Why/Why not?
June 20th 2010 @ 11:30pm
sheek said | June 20th 2010 @ 11:30pm | Report comment
Dejan,
The Spanish ref in the Serbia-Germany game was just ridiculous. In the first half he was handing out yellow cards left, right & centre. Klose was lost to the game as a result, which probably had a huge bearing on the final result (with all due respect to Serbia).
At half-time he must have thought to himself, if I keep this up, there won’t be many players left on the field. So in the second half, tackles that would have drawn yellow cards in the first-half, were let go. Just plain mind-numbingly stupid…..
Once a ref decides to manage a game a particular way, he has to go through with it, remaining equally savage/lenient to both sides. You just can’t change the way you manage mid-stream.
And if you started out with the wrong strategy, then obviously your competency comes into question. The Mali ref in the USA game was clearly out of his depth.
Perhaps FIFA might have to look at having the best 32 refs at the world cup, irrespective of where they come from. Or give exposure to refs from other countries, into the major European leagues (I don’t know if this is done).
Whatever is decided upon, the standard of international refereeing must be raised. Sorry, end of rant….. !
June 20th 2010 @ 11:39pm
Dejan Kalinic said | June 20th 2010 @ 11:39pm | Report comment
Spot on.
An inconsistency in two halves of football is unacceptable for mine.
I raised the idea of simply the best reds, regardless of location, in a conversation I had today.
June 21st 2010 @ 12:22am
Dejan Kalinic said | June 21st 2010 @ 12:22am | Report comment
A team that calls itself Italy utilizes such tricks magically.
De Rossi just won penalty for GOING DOWN for a shirt pull … had he not, no penalty. The USA must be seething after they had three players being hugged in the box – scored with another – and had the goal disallowed.
Then there’s Cannavaro’s constant chirping..
June 21st 2010 @ 12:51am
dasilva said | June 21st 2010 @ 12:51am | Report comment
That’s why the entire world hates this Italian team.
Of course with 4 world cups, the italians won’t care.
June 21st 2010 @ 12:57am
Dejan Kalinic said | June 21st 2010 @ 12:57am | Report comment
That’s the final question – results or the way you go about it?
June 21st 2010 @ 9:46am
AndyRoo said | June 21st 2010 @ 9:46am | Report comment
Honestly I would rather support the world cup less Socceroos than Italy.
If we played like them then any world cup we didn’t win (if we won the world cup I would forgive anything as a means to an end) I would be full of self loathing for the disgusting antics of my own team. I love results (was happy to suport offside trap playing 1 nil Arsenal) and would consider failing to qualify for the world cup a tradgedy now but I publically display my support for the Socceroos all the time.
I have a Socceroos sticker on my car and even after the 4 nil defeat still didn’t mind people commenting on it.
If I was Italian with an Itlaian sticker then after last night I would be trying to peel it off.
June 21st 2010 @ 11:29am
Dejan Kalinic said | June 21st 2010 @ 11:29am | Report comment
That’s fair enough. Majority verdict.
I think Italy is more hated because they fall over when there is no contact .. rather than making contact obvious.
Harsh on Kaka this morning.
June 21st 2010 @ 7:19am
sheek said | June 21st 2010 @ 7:19am | Report comment
Bad Karma will get Italy eventually. Maybe the Kiwis delivered a taste of bad karma last night….. !