No hard feelings for Ersan Gülüm
Roar Guru Related coverage
It has been reported that Guus Hiddink has picked Ersan Gülüm for Turkey in the friendly against the Netherlands, locking him out of a potential Socceroos berth.
Inevitably this will bring out outrage fans about how he is betraying the country of his birth and there will be comparisons with him and Josip Šimunić.
However, in this case, I’m generally supportive of his decision to represent Turkey over Australia.
People may be surprised of this considering that I wrote in the past that FIFA should follow cricket’s lead by banning players from playing for the country of their parents’ heritage as I believe it’s an inappropriate indicator of national identity.
My opinion of that is still unchanged.
However, there is a key difference between Ersan Gülüm and Josip Šimunić. Ersan Gülüm is a migrant of Turkey. He has lived in that country for the past five years, he pays taxes, and he directly contributes to the Turkish economy and society.
Even if he didn’t have Turkish heritage, he would still be eligible to play for that country.
The fact is, people have the right to migrate to another country and Australia benefits from migration just as much as (and arguably more so) Turkey.
Throughout history, Australia has benefited from people coming to Australia and representing this country with distinction. Most of the 1974 Socceroos were born overseas and one of Australia greatest defenders, Milan Ivanović, a member of FFA Hall Of Fame, was a migrant from Yugoslavia.
By holding grudges for Ersan Gülüm for migrating to another country and representing them in international football, it would be disrespectful to the migrants who came to this country and represented Australia.
Therefore, I wish Ersan Gülüm good luck in a long and prosperous career for the Turkish national team.
- Explore:
- International Football, Socceroos, Turkey
November 14th 2010 @ 8:35am
whiskeymac said | November 14th 2010 @ 8:35am | Report comment
disappointment in losing a potential player but at the same time he was always keen to play for the turks – if thats what he wanted so be it, the socceroos will survive.
November 14th 2010 @ 8:41am
Realfootball said | November 14th 2010 @ 8:41am | Report comment
I could not agree less. This business where young players like Gulum make a play to the highest bidder is disgraceful. He would have played for Australia if we had called him up first. With loyalty like that, Turkey can have him.
I applaud Osieck for his refusal to enter a “race” for a player who has yet to prove himself. If he did it would be very, very unhealthy for the psychology of the Roos squad. Players should be selected on merit, not on circumstance.
The whole business is unseemly in the extreme and does Gulum and his management no credit.
November 14th 2010 @ 1:13pm
David said | November 14th 2010 @ 1:13pm | Report comment
i agree Gulum is not to blame FFA and there incompetence is
November 14th 2010 @ 1:39pm
dasilva said | November 14th 2010 @ 1:39pm | Report comment
Fair enough that Gulum was trying to play both sides and that was distasteful
Firstly he said this
“I don’t want to play for Australia. If I get called for Turkey, I would like to play for Turkey instead. I only want to wear the Turkish jersey. To wear the jersey of the Turkish national team would be a huge honor for me. I am a Turk and representing my country would be an honor. I will indeed be very happy if I get called up”
“To wear the jersey of the Turkish national team would be a huge honor for me. I am a Turk and representing my country would be an honor. I will indeed be very happy if I get called up”
Then “There’s not one bone in my body that has a doubt that I want to play for any other country but Australia,”
You either pick one side or the other. Him being a bit of a tease to both sides was pretty wrong.
Nevertheless the basic principle of allowing a player to migrate to another country and able to play for them is the same.
November 14th 2010 @ 7:42pm
Danny_Mac said | November 14th 2010 @ 7:42pm | Report comment
Sorry, but we did this exact thing with Harry Kewell. He was given his socceroos debut at a very young age, possibly too young, but it locked him into the socceroos. Given that he had English parents, was living in England playing for Leeds and there was a dire shortage of quality left sided players in England at the time, it was a smart move.
I don’t see a problem with the practice, but only if there is genuine intention for the player to be a part of the system. If Gulum is good enough to be in the first 11 for the Socceroos, then pull out all the stops. If he’s not however, then playing for Turkey is a better move.
November 14th 2010 @ 9:09am
Fussball ist unser leben said | November 14th 2010 @ 9:09am | Report comment
dasilva
There still seems to be confusion about this issue and I hope you don’t mind if we go over it again since I think it will be good to get a wide range of views on the matter.
On the 442 forum some are suggesting that, notwithstanding Gülüm’s call-up to the Turkish squad … he will still be eligible to be picked for the Australian National Team because this Turkey v Netherlands match is only a friendly.
It all depends on the interpretation of Article 18 in the FIFA Statutes and, in my opinion, the Article’s drafting is ambiguous on some issues.
To begin with we need to read Article 15 which states that:
With the exception of the conditions specified in article 18 below, any Player who has already participated in a match (either in full or in part) in an official competition of any category or any type of football for one Association may not play an international match for a representative team of another Association.
This seems to be totally clear.
If a Player has participated in a match:
a) in an official competition (does this include friendlies… perhaps, not?)
b) of any category (presumably u17, u20, etc.)
c) of any type of football (e.g. futsal, beach, outdoor, etc)
d) for one Association
then,
that Player may not play an international match for a representative team of another Association.
So, in my opinion, from Article 15, b/c Gülüm has already played u23 level for Australia – in an official competition (i.e. Olympic qualification) he cannot play for any other country UNLESS he falls within the exception of Article 18.
Article 18 of the FIFA Statutes deals with “Change of Association” and allows a Player, who has already played for one Association (as outlined above in Article 15), to play for another Association.
The relevant section is Article 18(1)(a), which states:
1. If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for several representative teams due to nationality, he may, only once, request to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality, subject to the following conditions:
(a) He has not played a match (either in full or in part) in an official competition at “A” international level for his current Association, and at the time of his fi rst full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition for his current Association, he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he wishes to play.
So, to break it down,
If a Player is eligible to play for more than one country he may apply may, only once, request to change the Association if:
He has not played a match:
i) in an official competition (does this include friendlies… perhaps, not?)
ii) at ‘A’ international level for his current Association
iii) at the time of his first appearance in an international match in an official competition for his current Association, he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he wishes to play.
So, in my opinion, even if Gülüm plays any part of the match: Turkey v Netherlands, he may still be eligible to play for Australia since this is only a friendly match and NOT a match in an official competition!
This is only my non-expert interpretation of this FIFA Article and would be interested to hear other views.
Obviously, it works both ways. And Ognenovski would still be eligible to play for Macedonia, despite playing for Australia against Egypt in a friendly.
November 14th 2010 @ 1:16pm
David said | November 14th 2010 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
do u honestly think he would play for Australia if he played a game fr Turkey? it would destroy his his career now he can’t turn back. Think about the fan backlash, when Gulum said he wanted to play for Australia the turks where outraged. The FFA did nothing to contact this boy for over 3 years now he is going to become a star and we have lost him.
I say good luck to him i hope he becomes the best defender Australia has ever seen so that the FFA learns never to make this mistake again!
November 14th 2010 @ 7:37pm
Danny_Mac said | November 14th 2010 @ 7:37pm | Report comment
From what I understand, the provision for changing nationalities works on an appeal system, and is generally only implemented where a player has played at an under-age level.
This is something that is realatively new, think back to Craig Johnson who played for Englands u21 side once, and was never able to play for the socceroos as a result.
The rules were changed as a result of a Freddie Kanoute appeal, he had only played very small number of games for the French u21 side, he wished to change to Mali, the country of his birth. Soon after this ruling, Tim Cahill used the ruling as an avenue to change his nationality from Samoan to Australian (hence the late age of his socceroos debut).
Dean Bouzanis (Greece), Shane Lowry (Rep. of Ireland) and Rhys Williams (Wales) have all played u21 for European nations, it is seen as a positive in a young players development, however clubs are reluctant to release players to fly back and forth to australia.
In the Ognenovski case, he was called up to play for Macedonia, but never acutally played, hence his avaliablity for the socceroos. However, had he have played any part, he would be eneligable. It will be the same for Gulum.
Given that it would have had to be appealed, the CAS would take into consideration the fact that a player can no longer be “trapped” by national associations as a young player, and that you have a choice as to who you play for at “full” international level, it would be hard to argue that Gulum was “tricked” into playing Turkey, especially when you factor in his comments in the press.
November 14th 2010 @ 9:31am
Australian Football said | November 14th 2010 @ 9:31am | Report comment
If he wants to play for Turkey good luck to him no hard feelings. However, if he was brought through the AIS system then at the very least the Turkey Football Association should make some repaid back contribution to the Australian Tax Payer. Or he himself give back what he deprived from an up coming Australian Football youngster. The AIS is not in the business to produce Elite Footballers to play for other countries.
November 14th 2010 @ 1:50pm
dasilva said | November 14th 2010 @ 1:50pm | Report comment
I’m not really too sure about that.
The intention of university is to invest tax payers money in people with qualification and education so that they can end up using their education to help Australian society in an economic and professional sense.
However many uni students can sometimes migrate overseas and used their expertise to help other countries who may well be competing with Australia in the market place.
Should we asked them to pay the full university fee (HECs is still subsidised education) if they decide to migrate and work overseas?
What about all the tax payers money used to subsidised education for primary and secondary school.
AIS is using tax payers money to produce elite athletes for Australia. However like with every institution there will always be people who ended up using their expertise to benefit other societies. It’s just part of parcel of any education.
Let’s not forget that Turkish clubs paid a pretty important role in his development as well.
If the likes of Simunic chose to represent Germany instead of Australia and Croatia. I would have been ok with that .
November 14th 2010 @ 3:23pm
Australian Football said | November 14th 2010 @ 3:23pm | Report comment
Uni and Tafe students pay for their career education I believe through Hecs debt to be paid by the student in the end. My son had done so with his part time Uni studies with his Arts Degree. So I feel Footballers should not be exempt and do the same if they make the big time, and especially if they want to take that education to benefit another national team is a contradiction of what the AIS was meant to be for.
November 14th 2010 @ 5:17pm
dasilva said | November 14th 2010 @ 5:17pm | Report comment
Uni student pays a fraction of the cost of education. The HECS fee is not nearly enough to pay for the cost of education.
Education is still subsidised by the government and only international students and Full fee paying students (before it was banned by the Rudd Government) pays for the complete cost of education.
November 14th 2010 @ 5:32pm
Australian Football said | November 14th 2010 @ 5:32pm | Report comment
And how much do the AIS football players pay when they attend full time at the institute to lean their career profession out of their own pocket..?
November 14th 2010 @ 7:02pm
dasilva said | November 14th 2010 @ 7:02pm | Report comment
I agree that there should be a HECS like situation for the AIS. Where people who had their training at AIS have to pay back when they start earning an income from their sporting careers.
However this should apply to all people not just people choosing to represent another country at a sport.
November 14th 2010 @ 7:28pm
Australian Football said | November 14th 2010 @ 7:28pm | Report comment
Agree…
November 14th 2010 @ 11:27am
Vesh said | November 14th 2010 @ 11:27am | Report comment
Unfortunately it’s the sport we all love that leads to this problem. Fussball nice on the regs. I believe the accepted current interpretation (please note current) is that once a player steps out for the senior side they have decided their allegiance. That can be in a friendly unfortunately. I see it as being shortsighted on the part of Osieck and FFA to not blood a left sided player immediately. It is the biggest problem area in world football left sided players so i’m not surprised that Turkey have blooded him early.
I do agree that a player through the AIS should repay HECS style like other university students as theoretically that’s what they are. I find it strange that I work to pay taxes that are used to support players who then earn millions a year in other countries which means theirs taxes go to others. Seems flawed to me
–
Comment left via The Roar’s iPhone app. Download The Roar’s iPhone App in the App Store here.
November 14th 2010 @ 12:02pm
Fussball ist unser leben said | November 14th 2010 @ 12:02pm | Report comment
Vesh
I also had your view about A-team friendlies being counted, but I’m not so sure any more.
I’ll use the case of Jermaine Jones, who plays for Schalke in the Bundesliga. Jones is German-born, but his father is American – hence, Jones was eligible to play for Germany and USA.
And, on 12 August 2010, Jones did, indeed, play for the USA against Brasil in a friendly.
Now, what makes this interesting and, perhaps, relevant to Gülüm’s case is that, prior to playing for the USA in this friendly match, Jermaine Jones had also played for Germany in three friendly games!
As reported on Soccernet.com
The 27-year-old (Jones) has made three appearances for Germany but since all three of his caps came in friendly matches, he is still permitted to represent another nation.
Turkey’s next full (non-friendly) international is not until 29 March 2011 so, let’s hope Osieck still has a plan for Gülüm?
Source: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/world-cup/story/_/id/654395/ce/uk/?cc=3436&ver=global
November 14th 2010 @ 11:34am
Football Fan said | November 14th 2010 @ 11:34am | Report comment
I think it’s fair enough that he wants to play international football and if it was me, it wouldn’t necessarily matter who it was with, it’s common for people feel ties to many countries in their ancestry.
Now to contradict myself – What annoys me now is that the Oz football community are wetting themselves over the selection of a 31 year old who cannot possibly be a foundation stone for the future of the national team AND had said he didn’t want to play for Australia.
Regardless of what coaches think or have seen of him, I reckon it was a stupid, shortsighted decision not to pick Gulum. And now we see the consequences. Holger said that he had his contacts working on Gulum over there and that the coaches were his friends and he was keeping him in the loop – clearly that doesn’t seem to have been the case.
November 14th 2010 @ 11:45am
Australian Football said | November 14th 2010 @ 11:45am | Report comment
Sorry but Sasa always wanted to play for Australia first. But when you have an arrogant man like Pim in charge who can’t even find a place for a player who has creamed the top Asian players in the ACL then you have to feel sorry for the big O to try and get on the international scene somewhere for a pending WC spot.. It’s the biggest football event on the planet that only comes once in a Football players life time if that..
November 14th 2010 @ 12:31pm
Football Fan said | November 14th 2010 @ 12:31pm | Report comment
Ognenovski didn’t return Pim’s call and that started all the shite. Doesn’t matter now I guess. Macedonia were never in the shot for a WC spot so I don’t accept that.
I get annoyed that we have opportunities for payers like Gulum in key positions who are obviously talented and we get BS excuses for not selecting them, like the one Holger put up this week. Ersan Gulum said during the week he was told he wouldn’t play Olympics unless he was in the a-league – to me that is an indictment on EVERYONE involved in that campaign and raises even more questions about the whole debacle.
We will never learn how to get young players involved here! They either get selected once then disappear (Kilkenny, Burns) or they are left sitting on their hands wondering what the hell is going on.
November 14th 2010 @ 5:27pm
Australian Football said | November 14th 2010 @ 5:27pm | Report comment
Sorry that is wrong—my knowledge is that Pim went public and I read Pim’s comments in the press that he had better players then Sasa to choose from. That was documented in the press.
November 14th 2010 @ 1:18pm
David said | November 14th 2010 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
No he didnt Sasa wanted to play for maso get ur facts right he even got called up to the maco squad dont blame Verbeek!
I reckon Sasa will play 5-7 game for Australia if he is any good then will retire Gulum could have played 50-60 games for Australia. This i massive loss anyone who doesn’t see that is making excuse for a system that clear is flawed!
November 14th 2010 @ 3:08pm
Australian Football said | November 14th 2010 @ 3:08pm | Report comment
You are dead wrong—he wanted to play for Australia but he was rejected by Pim. Sasa said in the press about his desire to represent Australia. But Pim said he did not fit in his plans that were also recorded in the press, that is fact, so then Sasa put out feelers for Macedonia representation when it came clear he had no chance of going to the WC with Australia.
November 14th 2010 @ 11:45am
Robbie Di Fabio said | November 14th 2010 @ 11:45am | Report comment
I am fairly confident the International rule applies as follows:
A player who participates in an “A” grade International match (Senior team not U23′s etc), in not eligable to represent another nation. A friendly is included in this criteria.
Therefore, if Gülüm does not get any game time (earn a cap) against Netherlands and remains on the bench he is still eligable to play for Australia.
November 14th 2010 @ 1:24pm
Shakaka said | November 14th 2010 @ 1:24pm | Report comment
I’m just sick of other countries trying to nick are players all of the time, like the sheer majority of the time they choose Australia and all but once in a while one of them does go off and play international football for another country which is a crying shame..like yes australia back in the 60′s and 70s had a lot of players born in other countries playing for us but they immigrated to our country for non-footballing reasons most of the time and had been living in the country for some quite number of years..
November 14th 2010 @ 5:28pm
dasilva said | November 14th 2010 @ 5:28pm | Report comment
Milan Ivanović move to Australia for footballing reason (by the way this was in the 90s). He had a lengthy career with Red Star Belgrade a major club in Yugoslavia before moving to Australia.
Nevertheless, he represented Australia with distinction and after his career finish still lives in Australia. So he arrived in Australia simply for a job for a football club. He falled in love with this country and now considers himself to be Australian. He now does youth coaching in South Australia years after he had retired showing his committment to Australian football.
I don’t make any differentiation by people moving to country for footballing or non-footballing reason.
People migrate to other countries for many reasons. Some people migrated to Australia purely for job and economic reason. However if they fall in love this country and want to live here for the rest of their life, then I believe they are just as Australian as anyone else.
If footballers come to Australia purely for a job and economic reason but then discovered that this is a great country and felt Australian enough to represent this country over their country of birth then I welcome them.
Of course, I must then allow other people to make the same choice if they decide to emigrate to another country like Ersan Gulum did.
November 14th 2010 @ 6:57pm
vino said | November 14th 2010 @ 6:57pm | Report comment
he made the correct decision, his parents migrated back to Turkey, and this is where the boys heart is
FFA have no case to answer, you have to earn a socceroos jersey, they dont come cheap after just 4 appearances for a club.
you can say “but ohwell we developed him and this and that” ohwell too bad,
kewell and cahill learn’t their trade in England, do we owe them anything? no!
win some lose some, in australia case, it wins more than it loses.
Good luck Ersan
November 14th 2010 @ 8:43pm
jimbo said | November 14th 2010 @ 8:43pm | Report comment
I’ve seen Gulum play – he’s not that great – the big O would eat him for breakfast.
Obviously Holger and Aurellio Vidmar are of the same opinion.
Good luck to him.
The bottom line is with such an international game and the people moving between countries and grandparents all over the world, you are free to play for whichever country you are eligible to play for.
But I’ll bet he would have rather played for the Socceroos – and that is the danger of playing a bluff like that –
“pick me or I’ll play for another country”.