All Blacks threaten golden oldies scrums
By Chris Barclay, 29 Nov 2010 Chris Barclay is a Roar Guru
- Tagged:
- All Blacks, New Zealand rugby, Rugby Union, scrum
It’s not just the Wallabies who are suffering scrummaging headaches. The world No.1 All Blacks have threatened to implement “golden oldies” scrums next season as tension continues to build over their set piece platform.
New Zealand’s assistant coach Steve Hansen revealed that depowering the set was a consideration in the aftermath of the Grand Slam-sealing victory over Wales on Saturday — a success sullied by another scrummaging performance that attracted harsh scrutiny of a northern hemisphere referee.
Ireland’s Alan Lewis regularly found fault with the New Zealand eight on the Welsh feed, a contributing factor to the All Blacks’ being caned 17-8 in the penalty count during their 37-25 triumph.
Since embarking on their tour of the UK and Ireland the All Blacks have been concerned about how they are officiated when seeking to exert pressure on the opposing pack.
Those frustrations finally boiled over at the Millennium Stadium when an exasperated Hansen said the All Blacks might refuse to shove in future when the opposition halfback crouches to deliver the ball.
Hansen and head coach Graham Henry were so perplexed by Romain Poite’s officiating at Twickenham and Dave Pearson’s rulings in Scotland a week later that they indicated the International Rugby Board’s referees chief Paddy O’Brien would be contacted for clarification.
Those discussions never eventuated. Instead Hansen offered his own solution when asked how the All Blacks could minimise penalties at the set piece.
“The answer is don’t put pressure on, just let them win their ball,” he said.
“We can stop trying to put pressure on the opposition scrum so they stay up. We want to put pressure on them but if they fall over all the time we’re getting penalised.”
“We’ve tried talking to the referees but we’re not making any headway. We’re going to have to use the summer months to put our heads together and come up with a solution.
“You can laugh at me when I say we’ll stop doing it (pushing) but we could be better off,” he said, pointing out Wales accrued 18 points from penalties.
Not all were related to scrum infringements though a 39th minute penalty was converted for an All Blacks indiscretion; Stephen Jones’s long range effort in the 66th minute that narrowed the All Blacks’ advantage to five points followed Lewis blaming Tony Woodcock for initiating a cave-in after a series of resets.
All Blacks hooker Keven Mealamu argued they could not maintain their footing on the stadium’s notoriously unstable surface — but Lewis ruled otherwise, irritating Hansen.
“You could see the turf turned up, he obviously felt they slipped over but Alan Lewis gave a penalty,” Hansen said.
“That’s when you get frustrated with the officiating. Maybe a little commonsense would have been good.”
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- All Blacks, New Zealand rugby, Rugby Union, scrum
November 29th 2010 @ 7:44am
Sam Taulelei said | November 29th 2010 @ 7:44am | Report comment
Oh God no, somebody please tell Steve Hansen to shut up. This smacks of John Mitchell’s infamous instruction pre world cup in 2003 to the All Blacks to not ruck the ball any more to avoid being penalised. I hope that this was just an emotional outburst and there is no substance, can’t imagine Mike Cron enjoying teaching his charges not to push at scrumtime.
November 30th 2010 @ 1:59pm
Jason said | November 30th 2010 @ 1:59pm | Report comment
There’s no way Cron and Henry would permit this unless dominance was costing them points in the face of poor officiating.
November 29th 2010 @ 10:19am
Rusty said | November 29th 2010 @ 10:19am | Report comment
For his outbursts Mr Hansen is starting to turn into the PdV of NZ rugby – not good
November 30th 2010 @ 2:02pm
Jason said | November 30th 2010 @ 2:02pm | Report comment
He does need to tone it down. If it was a response to a journalist’s question, the correct response is to say “it is definitely an issue that we’re working on and raising within the correct channels for clarification. We have every confidence in our players and the recognised expertise of Mike Cron.”
November 29th 2010 @ 10:54am
Blinky Bill of Bellingen said | November 29th 2010 @ 10:54am | Report comment
At first Hansen’s remarks seem complete nonesense. But does he actually have a point?
November 29th 2010 @ 10:58am
Jamesb said | November 29th 2010 @ 10:58am | Report comment
He indeed does have a point, a very valid one.
The refereeing of scrums is a joke and in fact scrums theremselves are a debacle!
If the IRB continues to put their heads in the sand over this issue, then the AB’s should not contest opposition ball. What’s the point if you are going to concede penalties which could cost you 9-15 points a match. Better off neutralising the refs and avoiding such penalties.
November 29th 2010 @ 11:44am
Sam Taulelei said | November 29th 2010 @ 11:44am | Report comment
…….or we could just go to league scrums and be done with the whole thing.
I am inherently against any concept of “don’t compete against opposition ball” it’s taken NZ rugby over ten years since 1996 to wake up that competing against the opposition throw into a lineout is a good thing and an actual skill.
It’s taken us over 15 years to learn how to maul again, again it’s an actual skill.
There are so many aspects of forward play that aren’t recognised as a skill unlike, what the backs do that it really gets under my skin when I read comments like that from coaches.
It’s also ridiculous to suggest that approach in one of the main areas of physical contact in a game because that presumes the opposition will also be generous in doing the same. That will be a great epitaph on Hansen’s coaching career when the All Blacks scrum is pushed back over their own tryline conceding a try/penalty try and losing a knockout match in the world cup next year.
November 29th 2010 @ 10:37pm
Mick Gold Coast QLD said | November 29th 2010 @ 10:37pm | Report comment
Jamesb – my great fear is that the powers that be will have a fiddle, to respond to the calls (by TV commentators too, who ought to know better) that scrums are undergoing too many re-sets, taking too long and spoiling the spectacle for the fans.
After watching, analysing and thinking about them this season I am convinced the single biggest problem is a consequence of the last “fiddle” the lawmakers had.
Sam Taulelei’s points about learned skills are well made. Good tight fives can achieve what is expected of them first time, just about every time, if they are allowed to do what occurs naturally.
Instructing referees to use this stupid delayed “engage” call is the problem.
I wrote a modest piece on this early in the season – http://www.theroar.com.au/2010/03/02/getting-the-scrums-right-even-topo-would-struggle/ – and said, in part:
“There is nearly a ton of weight in each pack bound and ready to go forward and the referees expect them to be able to hold their natural momentum for too long.
A reason individual packs bind finally only just before the engagement is to harness and exert the power just in time, without becoming unbalanced – once bound it is impossible for the front row to hold back the back 5 (who cannot see the precise moment) for any extended period.
And it is impossible to maintain balance whilst waiting. In these circumstances, the law or practice focusing on safety increases the danger of a collapse under pressure.
Effective engagement is both more likely to succeed and to be safe, if it is allowed to occur under the natural momentum and at the exact point when balance and control is at its peak moment.”
November 29th 2010 @ 11:16am
RedsNut said | November 29th 2010 @ 11:16am | Report comment
Sounds like the ABs are begining to be sussed out about their tactics,
November 29th 2010 @ 12:23pm
Jamesb said | November 29th 2010 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
The best scrum in the world is wondering why they are all of a sudden being penalised by northern hemisphere refs, who don’t have any answers when questioned and are sticking their heads in the sand, i.e. they don’t want to be held accountable. Not good enough in the professional age.
This is not a NZ problem but a Rugby problem that urgently needs addressing.
Spectataors, commentators, coaches and players had no idea what most of the penalties were for on Sat, which has to be a cause of concern for any sporting code.
November 29th 2010 @ 12:46pm
woodster said | November 29th 2010 @ 12:46pm | Report comment
i think they scrummed quite good on the weekend if wales can fix the pitch thats half the problem fixed. And if anyone takes hanson’s remarks serious then they need a sense of humour. Have wales got the best scrum out of the home unions or what?
November 29th 2010 @ 3:58pm
Peter K said | November 29th 2010 @ 3:58pm | Report comment
What would be interesting is to scrum to the law AND make a point of telling the ref.
The law states that you cannot push until the ball is in. So on engage you dont push, you dont pull back either.
Obviously since you are not pushing until the ball is in BUT the oppsoing team is you should move about 3 metres off the mark.
By law you should get a freekick everytime.
Before you laugh.
A similar tactic was used successfully in mauls formed from lineouts.
The defending team stepped away, did not engage so no maul was formed, the attacking team however had formed ready for a maul and sent the ball to the back and charged forward.
Correctly the ref gave penalties for obstruction.
November 29th 2010 @ 4:27pm
Jerry said | November 29th 2010 @ 4:27pm | Report comment
You have to be very careful with those sorts of tactics though – in the lineout one for instance, you can’t actually “step away” as that would be leaving the lineout early. You just have to stand your ground, and with the way a lot of people jump (ie through the lineout Victor Matfield style) there’s often no choice about whether to engage the attempted maul.
November 29th 2010 @ 4:51pm
Peter K said | November 29th 2010 @ 4:51pm | Report comment
The players who were in front of the ball stepped to the side so were still in the lineout.
I saw this actually implemented a few times against the Boks and England.
Then they correctly stopped moving the ball back until a maul was formed which meant it was suicide to not engage.
The trouble is the ref will penalise you for not taking a hit in the scrum despite no mention of a hit in the laws or ignore the scrum moving off the mark before the ball is in. It would be worth trying on their feed and test the ref and pressure him to apply the law.
November 29th 2010 @ 4:59pm
Jerry said | November 29th 2010 @ 4:59pm | Report comment
I’ve seen the lineout trick work and I’ve seen the ref ignore it (the Hurricanes unsuccessfully attempted it this year). I reckon you’re right in that the ref would penalise the team who didn’t push as it would genuinely look like they were pulling back, I suspect. Penalties for early pushing in the scrum is about the most bull—- call in rugby, I reckon. Well, except for Botha’s suspension for a clear out.
November 29th 2010 @ 5:24pm
OldManEmu said | November 29th 2010 @ 5:24pm | Report comment
It is smart play the lineout non contest. The following explanation of the laws was provided to me by a very experienced and knowledgable referee.
“Chiliboy Ralepelle of South Africa throws into a line-out. Pierre Spies goes up, catches the ball and brings it down.
The Italians do not contest the ball and keep their distance from the South Africans, making no contact while the Springbok forwards gather around Spies in the hope of forming a maul.
Who can do what now?
First point: as long as the Italians stand clear of the Springboks, there is no maul.
As long as Spies is where he caught the ball, it is still a line-out and the Italians may not cross the line of touch. The Italians may also not retire from the line-out or cross the 15-metre line.
Even though it is not a maul, the South Africans are allowed to move their formation forward like an ancient Roman testudo.
If Spies keeps the ball and is front of the testudo, the South Africans are allowed to keep on marching forward, even if the Italians make contact.
If the South Africans work the ball back as they usually do in a maul and then Spies and the front row of the testudo make contact with the Italians, there is obstruction and the South Africans are penalised.
When that testudo moves across the line of touch, the line-out is over, but the Italians are not allowed to play anybody but Spies, the ball-carrier. If they then pick off the back men or the side men, they are guilty of playing a man without the ball.
To avoid obstructing, the South Africans must not get ahead of Spies.
If the testudo is moving downfield, and the Italians make contact with it, it becomes a maul and then the South Africans are allowed to work the ball back in the maul.”
http://www.sareferees.co.za/laws/laws_explained/clips/2495280.htm
December 1st 2010 @ 12:12pm
Hoy said | December 1st 2010 @ 12:12pm | Report comment
Old Man, in the example above, what stops the Itals from sending one bloke forward and tackling Spies at the head of the marching Testudo? Theoretically, it isn’t collapsing a maul, one didn’t exist; or does it the instant the Ital goes in and touchs Spies?
Then, IF they did tackle Spies and the South Africans holding onto him went down as well, are they diving over in a ruck situation?
November 29th 2010 @ 5:27pm
OldManEmu said | November 29th 2010 @ 5:27pm | Report comment
I think these comments are Hansen upping the ante in the lead up to RWC11 and it is a good ploy.
Lets face it – the scrums are an absolute lottery and whoever plays the referee the best gets the rub of the green.
I have previously adviocated here the idea of no scrum laws at the Senior level – sure it would make it a dangerous sh%^&tfight but a bit of self regulation might help – at the least it would make the props keep the bloody things up.
November 29th 2010 @ 10:18pm
goldenbull said | November 29th 2010 @ 10:18pm | Report comment
keep it up hansen, your making yourself sound ridiculas and the all blacks look silly for it, keep it coming!