The winners and losers from code expansion
Roar Guru By The_Wookie, 15 Dec 2010 The_Wookie is a Roar Guru
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Giants coach Kevin Sheedy and Israel Folau take the stage during the Greater Western Sydney unveiling of its club name and colours at the Sydney Showgrounds, Sydney. Slattery Images
In the ongoing battle for supremacy in football in this country, the mantra appears to be that more teams equals more money, whether that be from television rights or other means.
All football codes are expanding or planning to in the near future, and so I thought I’d take a brief look at how it’s being accomplished.
Super Rugby in Australia went from four teams to five, and by territory comes in fourth in the football codes. In a few months, the Melbourne Rebels commence their inaugural season in the expanded Super 15. Union has had several one-off matches and plays Test matches in Melbourne on a regular basis, and as such isn’t a stranger to the Melbourne community.
It faces challenges not known to its compatriots, in that it is the first privately owned club in Super Rugby, and has little in the way of grassroots to support it, with few junior teams to fall back on, and no state first grade structure of quality to feed it.
Its biggest concern, like all winter sports in Melbourne, is the AFL.
However, if the Storm is any indication to go by, the Victorian public tends to embrace most sports, and given Super Rugby crowds are hardly massive even in the heartland, the Rebels will most likely be a success. It’s all in the hands of the team’s administration.
Super Rugby faces the prospect of there being nowhere else likely able to sustain a team in Australia, and this will be as far as it goes. There are plans to include Argentina and maybe a Pacific Islands team, although it appears that South Africa may join the European Six Nations tournament due to its friendly time zones.
With all three of the other codes expanding, rugby needs to take a good hard look at itself.
The AFL is moving aggressively into the rugby league heartland, placing teams into the Gold Coast and West Sydney areas. Both teams have strong foundations, with stadium deals and sponsors, as well as government support and a committed league administration determined to make it successful if it takes twenty years.
They face competition from the resurgent Gold Coast Titans and four league clubs in the West Sydney area. It’s no coincidence that it will have been 30 years since the Sydney Swans moved to the Harbor City when the new team takes place.
The AFL has clamped a lid on Tasmania for the time being, although Hawthorn will play four matches there in 2011. AFL premiership matches will also be played in Cairns (one), Canberra (two) and Darwin (two). Pre-season matches will also be played at Blacktown, NSW.
Rugby league appears to be awakening from its slumber, with the prospect of a new and improved TV deal in 2013, an Independent Commission in 2011, as well as record crowds in 2010 – and there’s a lot to like about its prospects. Bids are coming in from Central Coast Bears, Central Queensland and the WA Reds for expansion.
Whether the league opts to spend money on expansion or to fix the code’s existing issues is going to be one of the many interesting discussions at NRL headquarters. Playing finals in front of bigger crowds at Stadium Australia should add to the leagues WOW factor.
In Melbourne, the Storm will get up off the canvas and be successful once more.
The A-League is shaping up to be the loser in the expansion period. North Queensland will be lucky to see out the 2010-11 season. Gold Coast exist only by the skin on Clive Palmer’s money. Crowds for Sydney matches are abysmal. The A-League has revoked the license it awarded for its newest franchise.
Even Melbourne Victory’s crowds are down, although this may be due to the introduction of Melbourne Heart. Crowds in Adelaide remain excellent, and support in Perth has steadied after a period of decline. With the World Cup out of the way, one can only hope that the FFA pay more attention to its children.
So who wins?
The Rebels move into Melbourne and depending on administration – and lets face it private owners don’t have the best records at sporting clubs in Australia – there’s no reason they won’t be a success.
Crowds in Melbourne are almost a given, with a large Islander population, and plenty of others who don’t mind a bit of rugby if past matches are anything to go by.
In Queensland and NSW, the AFL will use everything at its disposal – media and cash most of all – to ensure its teams survive the difficult birthing processes. The AFL claims to want crowds of 20,000 on the Gold Coast, and given Brisbane pull around 30,000 to a match, I don’t find that unreasonable at all.
They proved through its experiences with the financially stricken Bears and Swans throughout the ’80s and ’90s that it has the sheer stubborness to persist – an attitude we only wish had existed when it came to Fitzroy.
The NRL have a lot of positives coming through even if they don’t launch expansion teams in 2013, and they shouldn’t be disappointed if the NRL opts to fix its problems before splashing out on new or rejuvenated franchises.
Who loses?
I cant see the A-League winning out of this, and its problem is partly that it lacks one crucial advantage that the AFL and NRL have – a heartland. Melbourne and Sydney provide the bulk of clubs for the other national leagues, with Queensland supporting league, and WA/SA following the AFL into the ring.
They give crucial impetus through finances, sponsors, and big TV numbers that just aren’t available to football in Australia.
Before the A-League, the NSL had two conflicting empires – the Sydney based one and the VPL based one, and the failure to capitalise on these is part of the problem we are faced with today.
If the NSL had employed an Independent Commission at any time in its history, football’s history might just have been a little different in Australia.
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December 15th 2010 @ 6:53am
Joel said | December 15th 2010 @ 6:53am | Report comment
I disagree that the Rebels or any other club from any other sport have cause to be concerned about the AFL. The success or otherwise of expansion has far less to do with ‘competing sports’ than the competitions own internal management and appeal.
If you consider the support of the Melbourne public for sport generally there is good reason to believe the runaway success of the AFL has actually made spectator sport generally more appealing to more people, has broadened the market, and consequently has had positive effects for other codes.
December 15th 2010 @ 7:04am
The_Wookie said | December 15th 2010 @ 7:04am | Report comment
I wrote almost the exact same thing in the concluding remarks.
December 15th 2010 @ 8:10am
Joel said | December 15th 2010 @ 8:10am | Report comment
Uh.. I’m not really seeing it. You’re not making the same point. I don’t see anything in your article that relates to my second point either.
December 15th 2010 @ 8:14am
The_Wookie said | December 15th 2010 @ 8:14am | Report comment
“The Rebels move into Melbourne and depending on administration – and lets face it private owners don’t have the best records at sporting clubs in Australia – there’s no reason they won’t be a success.
Crowds in Melbourne are almost a given, with a large Islander population, and plenty of others who don’t mind a bit of rugby if past matches are anything to go by.”
December 15th 2010 @ 9:01am
Joel said | December 15th 2010 @ 9:01am | Report comment
With all respect I think you’re misunderstanding my point, perhaps I didn’t make it clearly enough. You raise the AFL as a concern to the Rebels, you raise the Titans and others as a concern to the AFL, my point is they aren’t. The ‘enemy’ are all the other activities that take peoples attention like watching TV, or playing video games. Just because we both agree that the competence of the administration is critical to success is really irrelevant to my point.
December 15th 2010 @ 7:25am
macavity said | December 15th 2010 @ 7:25am | Report comment
The AFL wil lose…..bucketloads of money, that is.
Good on them for having a go… and while GC may attract enough expats to get by, I can’t see GWS being anything but a train wreck… that threatens to drag the Swans down with them. The locals’ attitudes to the Giants range from amusement to outright hostility… the only groundswells are disbelief that the AFL are actually doing it, and outrage that the NSW Govt. is funding it. What happens when they turn out to be a bad joke? Do they get relocated, wound up, or persevered with?
The A-League made a big mistake putting an AFL administrator in charge – he brought his expansion arrogance with him, and they are paying the price. When a grand total of one club in your comp is currently sustainable, you have some major issues.
Rugby is now maxed out in Australia – good for them. S15 is a great concept for Rugby in Australia as it is just the right size and mix. The last few years have actually seen a much better standard of game, too (if only they would reduce the points for drop and penalty goals, but I digress). Will NZ and SA endure with it though, and when will it capture the public’s imagination?
NRL is the real unknown quantity. It is the code with the most demand for expansion, but the weakest commitment to it. The next 2 years will be very interesting – do they show some gumption and take a strategic view (WA, 2nd NZ, 2nd SEQ) or navel gaze (CC, no expansion)?
December 15th 2010 @ 7:51am
Jason said | December 15th 2010 @ 7:51am | Report comment
The one thing the AFL does well is long term planning and commitment. They made the Swans and Brisbane successful, even though it took a long time to do so. There’s no reason to believe they’ll cut and run from their expansion plans. My concern would be if the support for the new teams leeches off the existing ones, without growing a healthy derby type fixture.
‘Rugby is now maxed out in Australia’
I’m sure people said that when the Brumbies got a gig, or Perth…
December 15th 2010 @ 7:58am
The_Wookie said | December 15th 2010 @ 7:58am | Report comment
Im referring to the pre-eminent competitions here, Super Rugby wont put teams in Adelaide, the Northern Territory or Tasmania any time soon, and we all know it.
December 15th 2010 @ 8:05am
Jason said | December 15th 2010 @ 8:05am | Report comment
‘Im referring to the pre-eminent competitions here’
??? I was replying to macavity .
December 15th 2010 @ 8:16am
The_Wookie said | December 15th 2010 @ 8:16am | Report comment
He paraphrased what i wrote “Super Rugby faces the prospect of there being nowhere else likely able to sustain a team in Australia, and this will be as far as it goes”.
December 15th 2010 @ 8:34am
Jason said | December 15th 2010 @ 8:34am | Report comment
That’s not true. If the Super Rugby competition is further increased then the next State to get an Australian frnachise will be South Australia. As a competition it has grown fifty per cent in a decade and a half.
December 15th 2010 @ 9:09am
macavity said | December 15th 2010 @ 9:09am | Report comment
Jason, why would the S15 agree to any more Australian franchises?
It will be interesting to see if the Rebels have access to the revenue required to thrive – let alone Adelaide….
December 15th 2010 @ 10:15pm
rugbyfuture said | December 15th 2010 @ 10:15pm | Report comment
Super Rugby’s new structure is, in the future going to allow for national expansion at their own rates, in the various countries/conferances, this would allow for a gradual dismantling of the old state brands into city, regional or developmental teams.
December 15th 2010 @ 7:52am
The_Wookie said | December 15th 2010 @ 7:52am | Report comment
Regardless the swans were disliked when they arrived, and now have a stable attendance of more than 30,000 fans a game. the AFL appears set to go for the long haul on it.
Im not sure you can blame any code for looking at an AFL administrator. The guy was also a director of marketing for Nike for some years, as well as being the manager for broadcasting and strategy at the AFL, so one would think he had a decent head on his shoulders. I think the same problem would have happened if David Gallop had taken over the FFA. Its hard going from a sport which is growing, and has funds and resources, to a much smaller league with much less to work with.
NRL is an intersting prospect, but bear in mind that the NRL does not have the money to support much in the way of expansion even if it gets the new rights deal – it has other things to fix and maintain that have been neglected for too long. If there is an expansion, I’d expect either a queensland team, or a NSW team, so a league expansion, but not necessarily a code one.
December 15th 2010 @ 9:08am
macavity said | December 15th 2010 @ 9:08am | Report comment
I don’t know that the dislike of the Swans was anywhere near the level of that directed at GWS. I think for the most part they were ignored.
Sydney’s influence in sport is overrated. The city is a shambles, which hinders any sort of sustained sporting passion – and makes smaller suburban grounds the only particularly sustainable model. Sydney needs complete infrastructure reform before it chokes to death.
Gallop may be NRL chief, but he isn’t a Rugby League person. I am sure he could do whatever News Ltd told him to do as head of the FFA just as well as he does as head of the NRL.
December 15th 2010 @ 9:23am
Jason said | December 15th 2010 @ 9:23am | Report comment
Fair point about Gallop. He’s a lawyer and administrator first and foremost who does the bidding of his employers. There’s no reason to believe that would alter if he changed codes. Look at Possum Head for example.
December 15th 2010 @ 9:54am
The_Wookie said | December 15th 2010 @ 9:54am | Report comment
Its not a question of which sport he runs, its the resources and capabilities the sport has to help him run it. The AFL has a structure which is now being copied by the NRL due to its obvious success. Both of these leagues have facilities and support structures that the A-league can only dream of. It would be like taking the head of BHP, and putting him in charge of a BP service station and expecting him to be just as successful as he was before.
December 15th 2010 @ 9:09am
Joel said | December 15th 2010 @ 9:09am | Report comment
Unless you have a scientific survey detailing the attitudes of the people of western Sydney towards GWS, I think we can safely dismiss your assertions in that regard.
I don’t know how you imagine that people that have conistently proven themselves to be fans of the AFL will be negatively affected by irrational NRL hyperbole. In fact it will probably work against the NRL and to the advantage of the AFL as all those Swans supporters will now be motivated to support GWS as well.
GWS is a much lower risk than people want to believe and will surprise everyone.
December 15th 2010 @ 9:13am
macavity said | December 15th 2010 @ 9:13am | Report comment
I look forward to your scientific proof of your assertions.
December 15th 2010 @ 10:35am
Joel said | December 15th 2010 @ 10:35am | Report comment
I’m not surprised you can’t back it up. The vibe between you and your mates do not represent the feelings of the entire community, especially so considering most people in western Sydney don’t give a flying whatsit for the NRL at all (see attendances, ratings). I tell you what, you provide me with a reasoning based in evidence of your assertion the GWS will fail, and I will do likewise for my claim to the contrary.
December 15th 2010 @ 10:43am
The_Wookie said | December 15th 2010 @ 10:43am | Report comment
its an interesting point, the ratio of victorians who go to see the AFL is around 4% of the population on any given weekend, with average crowds of 38000. If Sydney crowds are half that for the NRL, and the average is probably less when you take out Broncos home crowds the ratio of people who are prepared to go to see NRL matches would barely scrape 2%.
December 15th 2010 @ 2:22pm
Jason said | December 15th 2010 @ 2:22pm | Report comment
Attendances are a poor statistic. League, of all the football codes, is made for television and it’s viewing audience is large. Having lived in Sydney, people care and watch league in proportions AFL doesn’t come close to.
December 16th 2010 @ 10:55am
The_Wookie said | December 16th 2010 @ 10:55am | Report comment
which is why the NRL didnt make the decision to play all finals at Stadium Australia for Sydney teams next year? Which is why the NRL isnt putting a mnassive emphasis on memberships?
oh wait.
December 15th 2010 @ 9:37am
Redb said | December 15th 2010 @ 9:37am | Report comment
Interesting you say the NRL has the most demand for expansion. Do you mean Perth?
I beleive Perth has about 3,000 RL participants which was roughly (2,900) the number quoted by Roy Masters in the SMH about 2 years for AFL participants in Western Sydney.
December 15th 2010 @ 9:50am
The Link said | December 15th 2010 @ 9:50am | Report comment
Perth is actually a ground up bid for NRL expansion.
There was no equivalent community bid for an AFL team in Western Sydney.
December 15th 2010 @ 10:09am
Redb said | December 15th 2010 @ 10:09am | Report comment
based on those numbers the ground swell is not very big and is similiar to GWS.
December 15th 2010 @ 9:50am
The_Wookie said | December 15th 2010 @ 9:50am | Report comment
I think the NRL can make Perth work, but they’d need to stick it out for the long run and prepare to run up losses. The Force do ok, and both AFL teams draw strongly. The Glory have picked up again after a brief decline, but still arent near the halycon days of the late NSL period. Perth is a sporting town.
For me, the better choice might be Adelaide, no union team to compete against, decent crowds in the superleague war and aftermath and a dedicated rectangle stadium already exists.
Either city will take time, time that historically hasnt been granted to struggling NRL clubs.
December 15th 2010 @ 10:54am
The Link said | December 15th 2010 @ 10:54am | Report comment
the bid is a clear signal of community demand, there was no equivalent ground swell from Western Sydney, in fact there was none. If the numbers are the same then by definition Western Sydney has a more passive AFL playing presence.
December 15th 2010 @ 10:59am
The_Wookie said | December 15th 2010 @ 10:59am | Report comment
that there has been a community bid is undeniable. Given the history of past Reds teams, one would hope the NRL would set proper benchmarks for an expansion there to meet, or it will go the same way as the last incarnation quite rapidly.
December 15th 2010 @ 11:01am
Redb said | December 15th 2010 @ 11:01am | Report comment
A small expat community in Perth is hardly a community groundswell. There are areas which really do want an NRL team but they are in tradtional areas like Rockhampton, Ipswich and the Central Coast.
December 15th 2010 @ 12:19pm
Rob C said | December 15th 2010 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
Red B, WA has on average 1,400 expats per week relocating there for work. Hardly what I would call a small expat community given the mining boom has been going for a good 10 years and post Western Reds for that matter.
The demographics of WA will make the NRL’s expansion very successful. There is a significant amount of QLD’ers and NSWelshman already residing in WA that would jump at the chance to support the Reds. The research done by the bid already supports this and the reasonably strong domestic league will mean ready made infrasture to support expansion.
Look I understand your desire to have WA all to the AFL’s self but league would be mad not to expand to this market. It will be a gold mine for the NRL (after 5-10 years solid ground work) and we should be going there in 2013!
December 15th 2010 @ 12:53pm
Redb said | December 15th 2010 @ 12:53pm | Report comment
Rob C,
1,400 mining expats per week for 10 years would equal 728,000 people. Somehow I doubt your stats. This is not translated into participation numbers clearly.
December 15th 2010 @ 1:14pm
The_Wookie said | December 15th 2010 @ 1:14pm | Report comment
not to mention that miners are typically nowhere near the city and unavailable to attend most matches.
December 15th 2010 @ 2:06pm
Whites said | December 15th 2010 @ 2:06pm | Report comment
Actually, many in the mining industry have fly in/fly out jobs and live in Perth.
December 15th 2010 @ 2:24pm
AndyS said | December 15th 2010 @ 2:24pm | Report comment
Rob/Red,
1,400 a week is a bit high, as total immigration to WA generally runs at about 1000-1200 per week. No idea if that incorporates any allowances for FI/FO workers, but they wouldn’t be hanging around to follow the sport anyway. As for the ones that are counted, the large majority are from places that follow neither AFL or NRL. I suppose that makes them an opportunity, but they’re far more likely to be interested in Union or Soccer. That said, I guess they would still have their uses in justifying infrastructure in which the NRL can share.
December 15th 2010 @ 3:51pm
mick h said | December 15th 2010 @ 3:51pm | Report comment
redb the afl fudge it’s figures in western sydney it includes aus kick figures. official afl figures for a club competition stretching from the hawesbury, penrith, liverpool ,lower blue mountains,campbeltown and camden areas a total of 68 teams this year. st marys in the pjrl this year had 50 teams. my point is there are more jrl players in perth than afl players in western sydney. if afl is expanding in western sydney then the nrl should expand into perth.
December 15th 2010 @ 12:02pm
beowulf said | December 15th 2010 @ 12:02pm | Report comment
You couldn’t get a more strategic view than Central Coast – the aim being to create a St George-Illawarra equivalent powerhouse on the northside of Sydney as a balwark to other codes and to invigorate Manly and Newcastle. Two basic strategic business rules are to do what your opponent would least like and protect your core markets first.
Short term vision would be to say – lets split Central Coast between Manly and Newcastle and screw the Coast and northern Sydney. End result, Manly continues to slowly go backwards given northern Sydney rejects Manly, and the Knights have no incentive/counterpoint to improve.
End result in 20 years we are left even worse than we are now with two weak league teams between the Bridge and the QLD border, covering around 3 million people, while AFL, Union and soccer continue to strengthen in the area.
Long term result of admitting the Central Coast – potentially the strongest NSW Club and a Foundation Club at that – a marketing bonanza. Plus the multiple grudge rivalries that will create huge interest.
The league for many years to come still won’t have the money to long term plough money into both WA and CQ – I think perversely if the TV deal is less than anticipated, they may go for the lowest cost/risk options (CC and SEQ) and save Perth/CQ/NZ for next time.
Regardless, David Gallop is delighted by the Bears progress so the CC Bears have every reason to be optimistic, particularly with an IC. Its ALL about memberships I hear……..and the NRL were delighted with 3,000 members – we can probably double that by Mar next year and leapfrog about 6 NRL teams.
Another membership drive tonight at Bluetongue Stadium for Carol night – onwards to 5,000 members….and beyond!
December 15th 2010 @ 1:23pm
The Link said | December 15th 2010 @ 1:23pm | Report comment
anything is a community groundswell when compared to GWS.
December 16th 2010 @ 6:59am
macavity said | December 16th 2010 @ 6:59am | Report comment
CC Bears = navel gazing.
Stop trying to spin this bizzare assertion that another team in an already crowded market is going to help existing teams.
December 16th 2010 @ 1:04pm
beowulf said | December 16th 2010 @ 1:04pm | Report comment
It will help by fully exploiting a masively underutilised market (Central Coast) and restablishing a market where there is currently next to none (northern Sydney). I’m sure Newcastle and Manly are not thrilled in the short term, but the other teams are and in the long term they will benefit through competition/rivalry/increased revenue.
Another 30 members yesterday!
December 16th 2010 @ 2:05pm
Roger said | December 16th 2010 @ 2:05pm | Report comment
Hi Macavity. I live in Blacktown and work for the Blacktown Council. I assume you live in Sydney, though making comments such as ‘amusement and hostility’ couldnt be further from the truth. I am born and bred in Sydney, grew up with League, but together with family and friends in the area, and quite a lot of people on the council, we are very excited about the GWS Giants. Aussie Rules will always be second to League for me and I guess a few more out West here, but I’ll be attending games and watching the team when I can and two of my sons already play the game through AusKick. Bringing the game out here will also introduce it to a lot of ‘neutral’ who simply dont follow league or cant get to the SCG to watch AFL or the Football. Perhaps the only frustrating thing GWS has done is that they didnt play the games at the Rooty Hill/Blacktown oval as that would have provided excellent atmosphere and help make supporters feel like they belong to a ‘club’. So please refrain from making assumptions and ‘guessing’ that we, the people in the Blacktown area, are all against the new club. All the best.
December 16th 2010 @ 2:23pm
Redb said | December 16th 2010 @ 2:23pm | Report comment
Thanks Roger,for setting the record straight with some balance.
The trouble with Blacktown IMO is its size, at 10,000 capacity it’s a bit small medium to long term.
December 15th 2010 @ 7:44am
Jason said | December 15th 2010 @ 7:44am | Report comment
The Rebels don’t need a ‘state first grade structure of quality’ in Victoria ‘to feed it’. Rugby players are professionals and move to the franchises they feel offer them the best opportunities to win titles and push for Wallaby selection. Predominately they come from NSW and Qld.
I don’t accept the biggest concern is the AFL. People who like AFL watch AFL. People who like rugby watch rugby. With a growing expat population in Victoria, that’s the market the Rebels should be pushing for. Their work at the grassroots will be to develop the code, as per all other codes of football.
A Pacific Island team won’t be joining Super Rugby and the South African’s won’t be leaving to join Europe. The assumption there is Europe would want them and they don’t; their fixture list is crowded enough as it is. The South African’s also know the quality of their own rugby would diminish.
December 15th 2010 @ 7:57am
The_Wookie said | December 15th 2010 @ 7:57am | Report comment
Theres a large number of AFL people who dont mind a bit of Union and Victorians do go to see pretty much any sport thats on. When i say the biggest concern is the AFL, Im not just referring to the league, but the tendency of the Melbourne media to pretty much ignore everything else when the AFL season is going on. If the team doesnt get any attention, then its in for some strife.
December 15th 2010 @ 8:15am
Jason said | December 15th 2010 @ 8:15am | Report comment
‘Theres a large number of AFL people who dont mind a bit of Union and Victorians do go to see pretty much any sport thats on.’
If that statement is true, why the disparity between the support and viewing figures for the AFL and other codes?
‘When i say the biggest concern is the AFL, Im not just referring to the league, but the tendency of the Melbourne media to pretty much ignore everything else when the AFL season is going on. If the team doesnt get any attention, then its in for some strife.’
That the Victorian mainstream media knows it’s market is a given. As I said, the Rebels will be counting on the expat/ rugby loving community to support it. Anything else will be a bonus.
December 15th 2010 @ 8:14am
Corey said | December 15th 2010 @ 8:14am | Report comment
Great article Wookie, I find this a nicely unbiased piece – which is rare on this site. I think the AFL has the right idea, put a pin in the map and keep putting resources into that pinpoint until that pinpoint is putting resources back into them. The NRL needs to learn to do that with WA, Super Rugby will do that with Melbourne – as the ARU know they need the rich clients from Victoria to make Union more viable in this country. Also, the A-League needs to sell the franchises to overseas buyers who will spend money for a while – a bit like the Dutch teams that were looking at buying the Brisbane Roar (as the Roar have their origins in the Dutch community i.e. the Orange uniform). If Ajax, or Twente or PSV were to buy the Roar than they would send their players over here on a loan if they needed the players to get some game time outside the top tier, also this would lead to Australians having a gateway into Europe.
December 15th 2010 @ 8:18am
Black Diamonds said | December 15th 2010 @ 8:18am | Report comment
The AFL is following the American sports model of expansion.
The MLB put teams on the West Coast in the 50s to grow their brand, and look at them now. The NFL expanded around the country, as did the NBA, and even the NHL has now got teams up and down the country.
Ice Hockey teams in Texas and Tampa Bay? You better believe it.
December 15th 2010 @ 8:23am
Jay said | December 15th 2010 @ 8:23am | Report comment
the NHL expansion has been far from a raging success in the United States
December 15th 2010 @ 9:03am
Black Diamonds said | December 15th 2010 @ 9:03am | Report comment
That is true, but they’re sticking at it.
December 15th 2010 @ 9:17am
Joel said | December 15th 2010 @ 9:17am | Report comment
I think the AFL looks to the US but does its own thing. The NFL is expanding to London, but doesn’t even have a team in LA, how’s that for expansion! At least the AFL has put a team on the Gold Coast before invading and subjugating New Zealand.
December 15th 2010 @ 2:02pm
Whites said | December 15th 2010 @ 2:02pm | Report comment
There is a reason why there is no NFL team in LA. It’s so all the NFL teams can threaten to relocate to LA if the local and/or state governments don’t build a new stadium for the team every few years.
December 15th 2010 @ 2:22pm
allblackfan said | December 15th 2010 @ 2:22pm | Report comment
“We will fight you on the beaches, we will fight you in the cities …”
December 15th 2010 @ 6:05pm
EvertonAndAustralia said | December 15th 2010 @ 6:05pm | Report comment
I never knew there was no NFL team in LA!
December 15th 2010 @ 6:50pm
Whites said | December 15th 2010 @ 6:50pm | Report comment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_in_Los_Angeles
December 16th 2010 @ 11:17am
apaway said | December 16th 2010 @ 11:17am | Report comment
There used to be 2, the Rams and the Raiders. The Raiders returned to their former home in Oakland and the Rams moved to the Mid-West.
December 15th 2010 @ 8:20am
SportsFanMelb said | December 15th 2010 @ 8:20am | Report comment
As Wookie concluded the league that is least likely to succeed with code expansion is the A-League unfortunately. This is mainly due to the problems of the past, prior to the A-League being formed and the fact that AFL/NRL/ARU have a solid 100 year headstart in the AUS mainstream culture on the newly formed league. NQ and GC are pretty much gone and this will not help the league with the amount of negative publicity that will be generated in the press should this occur. If they do look to expand it needs to be thoroughly investigated and the amount of money required needs to be doubled from what the A-League is currently asking for (I believe West Sydney were asked to provide $6m and could not do this).
The AFL as it stands will not allow anything to happen to either the Gold Coast or West Sydney. They have committed $100m to each club, they have got both the QLD and NSW Governments involved in building stadiums, major sponsors (with major cash) have jumped on both teams and they currently have the biggest TV deal in the country (and will also have this when the new rights are negotiated). These clubs will also be AD’s legacy when he everntually leaves the post of CEO. The NRL would have loved the NSW government to spalsh out some funds for stadium renovations but the problem is that every club wants to play at their own stadium, no government that wants to be re-elected would ever fund 10 small league stadiums around Sydney.
The NRL expansion plans have elements that are exciting and other elements that make you realise why the game is where it is at. What exactly is another team in SEQ going to bring to the league? If QLD get another team it has to be CQ and the NRL need to get the consortium to sign at least a 10 year committment to the league. The QLD government have said they will build the stadium if the team is successful in gaining entry. Perth in theory sounds great but the reality is another thing. The local media (be in paper, radio or TV) is completely focused on WCE and Freo during the winter, anyone who has spent any time in WA will know this. The best the NRL could hope for is a team that tries to draw about 10K in the rubbish NIB stadium which the Glory and Western Force currently use. A second team in NZ could be a good idea and will at least bring a NZ derby twice a year to the league. CC Bears have been doing all the ground work and making all the right noise about the support that they have for their entry to the league. They have said there is 4,500 financial members, if I was the NRL I would say to show me at least 10K.
The article also correctly points out that Rugby has gone as far as it can. Melbourne was the last spot they could place a sustainable team. Melbourne will go out and support this team because VIC’s like to see their teams compete on the national stage, and with a brand new stadium as well they should be able to carve out a supporter base like the Storm.
BTW the Storm should see crowd numbers back to around the 15-18K mark now that they have cleaned up their books and they are playing for points.
December 15th 2010 @ 9:28am
captain nemo said | December 15th 2010 @ 9:28am | Report comment
Sportsfanmelb, do some research first mate, your comment ” The NRL would have loved the NSW government to spalsh out some funds for stadium renovations but the problem is that every club wants to play at their own stadium, no government that wants to be re-elected would ever fund 10 small league stadiums around Sydney”
Win stadium in Wollongong, Jubilee Oval at Kogarah, are just 2 grounds that are having heaps of tax payers cash put into them.
December 15th 2010 @ 10:24am
SportsFanMelb said | December 15th 2010 @ 10:24am | Report comment
So the Government tips into two stadiums that have just been ruled out for any finals action should St. George be there again next year, which they will be. Manly can’t get money and pretty sure that Canterbury were never given funds for Belmore either. Redfern has had minor money put into it but wont be used by the league either.
When I say splash out funds on stadiums I mean the following: Gold Coast Stadium built for the Suns and the Showgrounds re-built for the GWS Giants, brand new with a good capacity.
Even Melbourne built a new stadium to host Rugby/Soccer.
December 15th 2010 @ 10:40am
macavity said | December 15th 2010 @ 10:40am | Report comment
and Blacktown for GWS too.
Why arent they using ANZ stadium?
December 15th 2010 @ 10:45am
JF said | December 15th 2010 @ 10:45am | Report comment
It is far too embarrassing for the AFL to show GWS playing in front of so many empty seats, the obvious solution is to pump millions of tax dollars into the showground….so the AFL can save face!
December 15th 2010 @ 11:31am
clipper said | December 15th 2010 @ 11:31am | Report comment
To be fair, there’s plenty of empty seats at a lot of the NRL matches at ANZ stadium – isn’t that embarrassing as well?
December 15th 2010 @ 1:19pm
macavity said | December 15th 2010 @ 1:19pm | Report comment
@ Clipper – agreed.
I look forward to the NSW Govt building a dedicated RL stadium in the olympic precinct (30k would do fine) to alleviate the embarrassment.
December 15th 2010 @ 10:16pm
MagpieFlag said | December 15th 2010 @ 10:16pm | Report comment
@macavity – I assume the NRL will be tipping in as well as the AFL have done for, well, pretty much every stadium they play in including all 4 stadiums in Sydney? Yep that’s right the evil Imperial Victard AFL has pumped millions into Sydney stadia, what has the NRL contributed to stadiums in its own heartland city?
December 15th 2010 @ 10:45am
The_Wookie said | December 15th 2010 @ 10:45am | Report comment
they will be for larger matches against Sydney, Carlton, Collingwood and Essendon. It will play most other matches at the showgrounds – the AFL has chipped in $10 million for it. Pre-season and training facilities at Blacktown.
December 16th 2010 @ 7:02am
macavity said | December 16th 2010 @ 7:02am | Report comment
@MagpieFlag – that does not make the GWS grounds a good investment for NSW taxpayers. There is an existing stadium that was purposely compromised for the state’s main codes so that AFL could play there… and then they won’t play there!
December 16th 2010 @ 7:09am
Redb said | December 16th 2010 @ 7:09am | Report comment
Clearly the NSW Govt are more savvy. They are finally seeing the light in terms of outward promotion rather than the insular see how pretty the harbour is.
December 16th 2010 @ 9:43am
Ken said | December 16th 2010 @ 9:43am | Report comment
‘Clearly the NSW Govt are more savvy.’
Now that’s a funny comment and shows you know nothing about NSW, this government lurches between corruption and ineptness. The best interests of the NSW taxpayer is way down their list of priorities.
December 16th 2010 @ 3:05pm
Redb said | December 16th 2010 @ 3:05pm | Report comment
Clearly Ken, the AFL is showing the NSW Govt the way forward. your right its been a basket case state in Australia but has made at least one good decision.
December 16th 2010 @ 4:22pm
macavity said | December 16th 2010 @ 4:22pm | Report comment
It finally upgraded EAS…. that would be the good decision you are referring to, of course.
December 15th 2010 @ 4:13pm
mick h said | December 15th 2010 @ 4:13pm | Report comment
sportsfanmelb the showgrounds is not a complete rebuild capacity 25,000. win staduim wollongong will have capacity of 23,000 when completed and kogragh about 22,000.the reason why the finals are moved is rl has outgrown suburban grounds for semi’s eg wests tiger’s v sydney roosters approx 36,000 dragons v tigers over 72,000.
December 15th 2010 @ 7:27pm
Steve said | December 15th 2010 @ 7:27pm | Report comment
Why can’t Rugby put teams in Western Sydeny and the Gold coast?
December 15th 2010 @ 7:38pm
allblackfan said | December 15th 2010 @ 7:38pm | Report comment
no (competitive) depth.
Look at the Aussie super 15 teams now. They all have at least 1-3 NZ-born raised/trained players (never mind those Wallabies/state players of NZ origin!)
December 15th 2010 @ 8:40pm
p.Tah said | December 15th 2010 @ 8:40pm | Report comment
There are plenty more kiwis we can adopt
December 15th 2010 @ 10:21pm
rugbyfuture said | December 15th 2010 @ 10:21pm | Report comment
those new zealanders in the wallabies and other teams obviously are in direct proportion to those in australia….10% of the new zealand population, bondi for the kwis, st ives for the saffas. can’t help if people think aus is a better place to live…
December 15th 2010 @ 8:29am
Matt83 said | December 15th 2010 @ 8:29am | Report comment
The big losers will be the average sports fan.
As a consequence of bigger TV deals, more games will be on Pay TV and many will be left in the dark.
December 15th 2010 @ 8:33am
The_Wookie said | December 15th 2010 @ 8:33am | Report comment
I think the antisiphoning changes have fixed that for now.
December 15th 2010 @ 8:30am
True Tah said | December 15th 2010 @ 8:30am | Report comment
AFL is in it for the long haul, $100M for GWS is a huge amount, could the FFA or NRL give an expansion clubs a $100M lifeline? They have been working on the juniors for some time now in Sydney.
I suspect the benefits of expanding into GWS wont be reaped for about 5-10 years.
I dont understand how the FFA has really really dropped the ball in western sydney. Surely there must be some wealthy bloke who wants to own a western sydney HAL franchise…I mean Frank Lowy started his business empire at Blacktown, yet that area has no HAL side and probably will not for the next 5 years, this is an area that had a suite of NSL clubs. Now that Frank has sold out of Sydney FC doesnt he own the Western Sydney side?
RU cannot really expand beyond Melbourne anytime soon. NRL should be putting teams on Central Coast and another Qld team.
December 15th 2010 @ 8:57am
Redb said | December 15th 2010 @ 8:57am | Report comment
Good article.
As each day passes the GC Suns look more solid. I dont know about ave 20K crowds, 15K would be fine.
The Giants have a harder road but potentially more beneficial. The AFL has its sights on the medium to long term and I have no doubt they will be successful in the long run.
December 15th 2010 @ 9:01am
Futbanous said | December 15th 2010 @ 9:01am | Report comment
Given that the A-League is 6 years old & the other estabilished sports competitions(in various forms) over 100 years old doesnt it indicate that any sport finds expansion in Australia difficult.
Surely after 100 years of competition you shouldnt be talking about expansion at all.
You should be entrenched as is the case in most 100 year competitions overseas.
Lumping the A-League with 100 year old comps in terms of comparison is a nonsense. Its not even estabilished & wont be for a long time yet. The A-League hasnt lost anything because in reality its never been anything. Neither was its predecessor the NSL(For reasons too long to explain in this article). The fact that it exists at all is a minor miracle. Its potential was shown in season 3 when crowd averages were 14,600 on expectation only & MelbourneVictory were averaging in the high twenties,the Roar 17,000.
But deliverance didnt meet expectation as I expected & backs were turned both by lifelong football fans & the general sports fan looking for a nights entertainment.
Forget North Qld Or the Gold Coast in measuring A-League success, neither have any history of supporting professional football ,instead look to Sydney FC. A club in Australias biggest Football market that churns out Socceroos by the dozen.
Sydney is the barometer for the A-League. In fact for any sport wishing to be a serious National player on the domestic scene(One only has to see the effort the AFL have put into estabilishing the Swans & now the push for a GWS team).
One presumes because of TV rights,the lifeblood of any professional sport nowadays.
Until Sydney FC is estabilished (& pathetic 8000 average crowds this season indicate it has a long way to go) the A-League will flounder. Expansion clubs may come & go but if Sydney doesnt get its act together soon the lot will crumble anyway.
Clubs like NQ,GCU,CCM,even the Roar,Adelaide,Perth may become succesful,but it wont mean a thing to the big end of town if Sydney keeps performing like “Eddie the Eagle”.
That means less money for sponsorship,TV deals etc therefore less to finance expansion.
December 15th 2010 @ 9:32am
Redb said | December 15th 2010 @ 9:32am | Report comment
I dont think any sport can take Sydney or Melbourne for granted.
To say Sydney is the barometer is pure hubris. Its sports crowds generally are lower than Melbourne which is a bigger sport spectator market.
Not meaning to start a Melb-Syd war here, but to say its only about Sydney is absurd.
“Clubs like NQ,GCU,CCM,even the Roar,Adelaide,Perth may become succesful,but it wont mean a thing to the big end of town if Sydney keeps performing like “Eddie the Eagle”.”
I note you left Melbourne out of that comment which I think highlights my point, you cant suggest Melbourne is not integral to success.
“You should be entrenched as is the case in most 100 year competitions overseas”
Like which ones? The EPL (England) fits into a geographical area roughly the size of Victoria. Up until the last 10-20 years when communciation and transportation exploded many sporting comps stayed within their original boundaries.
December 15th 2010 @ 10:16am
Futbanous said | December 15th 2010 @ 10:16am | Report comment
Redb
Not talking about sports crowds, its a given that Melbourne wipes the floor with Sydney,talking purely financial & whether the big end of town will give to any competition that doesnt have a strong presence in Sydney.
IMO it wont & that includes taking Melbourne into consideration despite its high levels of attendance in most sports.
For the A-League sure Melbournes important but Sydney is vital in terms of getting the big bucks.
A city which as I stated churns out Socceroos cant cut the mustard in estabilishing an A-League team indicates to Foxsports(still most likely for the next TV deal & where its biggest potential viewing audience is) that the A-League as a whole is not reaching its potential.
Regarding the entrenched bit,I acknowledge your geographical/Commmunication/transport point but my slant was more on emphasising the difficulty in expanding in this country & using estabilished comps to indicate the difficulties the A-League faces.
December 15th 2010 @ 10:52am
Redb said | December 15th 2010 @ 10:52am | Report comment
Omitting crowds conveniently ignores one of the main success metrics.
December 15th 2010 @ 1:20pm
macavity said | December 15th 2010 @ 1:20pm | Report comment
so does omitting over 10% of Australia’s population from ratings figures, but the AFL cheerleaders are more than happy to do that…..
December 15th 2010 @ 1:55pm
Redb said | December 15th 2010 @ 1:55pm | Report comment
Crowds are of uber importance, they are by far the most reliable barometer for a spectator sport. Real fans who pay their hard owned to go to games and support their team.
All codes want them, whether they admit it or not.
December 16th 2010 @ 7:03am
macavity said | December 16th 2010 @ 7:03am | Report comment
Fair point, but I would suggest that the value of a sport to TV has a lot more to do with ratings than crowds….
December 15th 2010 @ 9:39am
The_Wookie said | December 15th 2010 @ 9:39am | Report comment
We’ve been hearing about this mythical A-league and its magical 6 year existence. The fact is The NSL was its direct ancestor, was the first truly national league (in 1977), and squandered its opportunities through triablism and poor administration. The FFA includes 5 teams from this period in assocation football period and as such is directly linked to its ancestors. You can slap a new name on it, but it doesnt change the fact that a National Soccer competition existed before any other code went national, and has little to show for it
December 15th 2010 @ 10:46am
Futbanous said | December 15th 2010 @ 10:46am | Report comment
The NSL was National in name only. Generally the clubs were Social gatherings for various ethnic communities.Having attended many matches over the 27 years(but with no particular allegiance to any club) the massive difference between football & other sports is that the A-Leagues predecesssor was never mainstream,therefore never estabilished in the sporting consciousness of the average punter,even though they were great producers of Socceroos.
Therefore the A-League is in reality the first mainstream National competition for the sport.
Nothing mythical or magical about it. In fact it looks more like a case of finding out the hard way about having to prove yourself in the difficult Australian mainstream sporting market.
No rabbits out of the hat,Frank Lowy tried that in Zurich,only hard work both on & off the field.
December 15th 2010 @ 10:52am
The_Wookie said | December 15th 2010 @ 10:52am | Report comment
I hear you. I still believe that its the fault of weak administrators, not to mention Sydney-Melbourne cartel rivalries that caused the NSL not to blossom into what it could have been. The league had 2 strong bases to build itself out from, but frittered that away with misguided attempts to make it socially acceptable, and thus isolated a lot of the european supporters.
I know Ive said that they are looking like the losers, the fact is at the moment they are very much looking like it. Is it possible to come back of course it is. Is the A-league dead, not by a fair margin. Perhaps I didnt write about its positives enough, strong performances in Melbourne, even if crowds are down, strong attendances in Adelaide and Perth. These are all good things.
December 15th 2010 @ 11:17am
Futbanous said | December 15th 2010 @ 11:17am | Report comment
All those reasons you state played a part. Unfortunately it left somewhat of a divide between old & new branches of the game. Unless thats fixed & at the moment its not, the game still cant reach its full potential. Can it be done. Well its hard to tell how good Ben Buckley & the FFA is at fixing these things given the concentration on the World Cup Bid. Ask me in a years time.
December 16th 2010 @ 11:28am
apaway said | December 16th 2010 @ 11:28am | Report comment
Wookie
Not sure I understand this: Do you mean 5 of the current A-League teams were former NSL clubs? If you do, that’s nowhere near the case. Perth Glory and Adelaide are the only clubs who competed in the NSL who are now part of the A-League. Newcastle Jets have moved well enough away from their NSL incarnation to be considered a third club. Apologies if this is not what you meant.
December 15th 2010 @ 10:30am
SportsFanMelb said | December 15th 2010 @ 10:30am | Report comment
Exapnsion will be on the cards continually regardless if your comp has been going for 100 years or 2 years. This is due to the population growing over time and eventually new centres around the country will be considered a viable option to place a new team (be it AFL/NRL/ARU/A-League).
Sydney may be the barometer for the TV audience for sport but it is a long way behind Melbourne and QLD when it comes to spectators actually turning up and supporting the teams in the market.
If expansion clubs come and go the sport involved is destined to be ordinary as fans will not keep coming back everytime a new reincarnation arrives in there town.
December 15th 2010 @ 10:59am
Futbanous said | December 15th 2010 @ 10:59am | Report comment
“If expansion clubs come and go the sport involved is destined to be ordinary as fans will not keep coming back everytime a new reincarnation arrives in there town”
Agreed & thats why you need money to sustain that club till it gets on its feet.
That money will never come for the A-League unless Sydney is estabilished. No matter that Palmer or Tinkler are involved at GCU & NUJ respectively still means sweet FA to TV & big company executives if SFC end up like Sydney City.
December 15th 2010 @ 11:02am
The_Wookie said | December 15th 2010 @ 11:02am | Report comment
Sydney needs to be able to sustain a presence of at least one club for sure, but critical to the survival of the league? Crowds in perth, adelaide and melbourne outdo anything from the north and would suggest otherwise. If the league is to grow, it does need to perservere with Sydney for a long time yet, or risk being seen as a joke.