France in: but real final is Australia v New Zealand
By Spiro Zavos, 16 Oct 2011 Spiro Zavos is a Roar Expert
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- All Blacks, France, Rugby Union, Rugby World Cup 2011, Wales, wallabies
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Wales lost the first semi-final of the 2011 Rugby World Cup 8-9 rather than France winning the match. Both sides played uninspired and essentially negative rugby.
The lackluster win by France suggests that tonight’s semi-final between the Wallabies and the All Blacks will be the real final. It is difficult to see how either of these sides won’t defeat France in the tournament decider next Sunday.
The game was lost by Wales for four reasons. First, they lost their captain Sam Warburton in the 24th minute when he made a dynamic, strong tackle on the French winger Vincent Clerc. It was the perfect hit with the shoulder driving Clerc up. But instead of holding the winger, Warburton started to drive him into the turf before letting him go.
Warburton’s cause was not helped by Clerc milking the outcome of the penalty. He lay prone for a couple of minutes before carrying on, after the red card had been handed out, as if nothing had happened.
I have had my doubts about the French gamesmanship in milking penalties after Morgan Parra got one against the All Blacks, with a blatant dive, in the pool round match. And later in the semi-final, Clerc tried to win another penalty with a dive. But this time referee Alain Rolland was awake to the stunt and called for the play to continue.
Stuart Barnes reckoned after the match that the referee over-reacted by giving the red card and not a yellow. Barnes was insistent that Warburton did not drive Clerc into the turf, he was not a dirty player and that, therefore, the referee had made a mistake. This mistake cost Wales the game. ‘There is no way it was a red card,’ he said time and time again on a panel after the match. ‘It was not the decision of a top referee.’
I agree with him. John Eales is also on-board commenting that the tackle was never more than a yellow card.
The IRB has to do something about this milking of penalties. I believe that these dives should be reviewed after the match and if it is a dive then the player should be suspended for a match.
Even though they played for nearly an hour without a player, a captain and their main fetcher, Wales could still have won the contest if they had kicked their goals. They missed 4 penalties, a conversion (which should have been better positioned if Mike Phillips had scored closer to the posts, as he could), and two dropped goals.
France, on the other hand, kicked all three of their penalties, although they missed a dropped goal attempt.
Wales, even though they were a man short, kicked the ball away too much. I can’t believe the number of times they kicked the ball back to the French instead of running at them. When Phillips did run he scored an easy try.
The only really good aspect of the French play, aside from their defence around the rucks and mauls, was their lineout. Wales simply could not win their lineout ball. This meant they couldn’t mount the continual pressure Wales needed to mount against a poor French side.
The point about all this is that the World Cup is a tournament. The winner is the team that wins the final and not necessarily the best team in the tournament or, indeed, world rugby. Wales lost their crucial scrum leader, the prop Adam Jones. Then came the yellow card decision.
So tonight’s semi-final assumes an even bigger importance, if that is possible. For it seems impossible for France to win this tournament after losing two pool round matches (against New Zealand and Tonga) and then playing so poorly for their lucky win against Wales.

The New Zealand All Blacks' Jerome Kaino, right, charges into a group of Australian defnders during their Tri-Nations rugby union match at the Olympic Stadium in Sydney, Australia, Saturday, Sept. 11, 2010. New Zealand won the match 23-22. (AP Photo/Rick Rycroft)
Both the Wallabies and the All Blacks are suffering from injuries. The latest player to drop out, Kurtley Beale, probably changes the balance of favouritism to the All Blacks. Beale made the crucial break-out against the Springboks and his work under the high ball has been very good.
But as France showed this week and the week before, it is not necessary to go into a match as favourites to come out winners. Sometimes luck and the bounce of the ball is enough to give a result that might not seem to be apparent before the match is played.
Spiro Zavos, a founding writer on The Roar, was long time editorial writer on the Sydney Morning Herald, where he started a rugby column that has run for nearly 30 years. Spiro has written 12 books: fiction, biography, politics and histories of Australian, New Zealand, British and South African rugby. He is regarded as one of the foremost writers on rugby throughout the world.
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- All Blacks, France, Rugby Union, Rugby World Cup 2011, Wales, wallabies

October 16th 2011 @ 4:49am
Ross said | October 16th 2011 @ 4:49am | Report comment
Given how much red cards change games- does anybody think France would have won if Warburton had not beed sent off?- I believe they should be subject to the video referee. A sending off that early in the game is probably more critical than any single try.
Alain Rolland was in the wrong but if something happens in real time on a crowded field and the difference between a sending off and a yellow card offence is a hard to spot detail such as when Warburton released Clerc then mistakes are inevitable.
October 16th 2011 @ 5:44am
Smeghead said | October 16th 2011 @ 5:44am | Report comment
Rollard has made it quite clear he’s not interested in replays. As far as I know, he hasn’t consulted the TMO once in this world cup.
October 16th 2011 @ 6:39am
Moaman said | October 16th 2011 @ 6:39am | Report comment
A 2009 IRB memorandum cites these three possibilites:
1) The player is lifted and then forced or “speared” into the ground. A red card
should be issued for this type of tackle.
2) The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the
player’s safety. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.
3) For all other types of dangerous lifting tackles, it may be considered a penalty
or yellow card is sufficient.
I am,like a lot of people,disappointed that Wales had a man sent off and thus ruined the game—BUT….a spear/tip tackle in ANY game should be dealt with harshly! You can’t make allowances for TV ratings….or which team/country/coach/fan may be disappointed ! Do we wait for a broken neck before we act?
October 16th 2011 @ 6:50am
warrenexpatinnz said | October 16th 2011 @ 6:50am | Report comment
The rules are clear Moaman but look at all the lifting tackles we saw in the SH this year and I can’t recall one player getting a red card and on occasions some looked worse than the one last night i.e Coopers tackle against a Bok.
It is fine that the rules are followed but what we are seeing is State of Origin refereeing but in the reverse, play the entire season preceeding the RWC were tackles like that are yellowed or penalized only then come RWC lets do that part properly but forget about offisde and ruck infringements?
It would be interesting to hear some NH fans and their viewpoint as I watched very little NH rugby besides the Six Nations and can’t recall seeing too many reds as well.
October 16th 2011 @ 6:57am
Moaman said | October 16th 2011 @ 6:57am | Report comment
Lack of consistancy,Warren,is a different issue. There was acute lack of consistancy at the scrum and ruck last night.The ‘spy-cam’ highlighted the complete collapse of the welsh front row-once James was on–and yet they got away without conceding penalties.The shot at goal Halfpenny missed looked all wrong to me..Charteris playing the ball on the ground and Servat(?)looked to have the rights.I just hope Joubert keeps a beady eye on the skullduggerous yellow-clad burrowers at the breakdown tonight.
October 16th 2011 @ 7:01am
warrenexpatinnz said | October 16th 2011 @ 7:01am | Report comment
“skullduggerous yellow-clad burrowers”, mate the only pirates out there tonight will be the infamous All Blacks, with Captain McCaw and his trusty parrot Cruden supported by first mate Piri, the patch, Weepu.
October 16th 2011 @ 7:07am
Moaman said | October 16th 2011 @ 7:07am | Report comment
October 16th 2011 @ 9:05am
Harryonthecoast said | October 16th 2011 @ 9:05am | Report comment
Way to go warrenetc!! The ABs have to do something to relieve all that Pressure??!! I just hope the Abs go into the game with a “Bledisloe” mentality….then the s@#t in. The best news I’ve heard today is that Fox is giving viewers a choice of commentary. Thank God! That Aussie Cheer Squad, masking as a commentary team is something else!
October 16th 2011 @ 2:53pm
sheek said | October 16th 2011 @ 2:53pm | Report comment
In the famous novel by Robert Louis Stevenson – Treasure Island – there’s a scene whereby Long John Silver & his co-conspirators are making their way to the spot where they believe their former skipper Captain Flint’s treasure is buried.
The somewhat loopy ex-marooned Ben Gunn, now with the good guys, follows them & begins to spook them by calling out the names of former shipmates now deceased. One of the names he calls out is “Darby M’Graw”.
So Captain (Richie) McCaw the pirate sounds entirely appropriate…..
October 16th 2011 @ 9:15pm
Mike said | October 16th 2011 @ 9:15pm | Report comment
Took a while to explain that Sheek…
October 16th 2011 @ 6:52am
Johnny-boy said | October 16th 2011 @ 6:52am | Report comment
Correct moaman. I always look at it from the point of would I be happy someone doing that to my son. It’s like sending somebody else’s kid off to war. If you’re not happy for it to happen to your own child you shouldn’t condone it. And I wouldn’t write off France for the final spiro. Taking anything for granted in a world cup is clearly fraught with danger. It wasn’t that wales couldn’t win a lineout it was that they lost so many of their own. Would wales have been worthy finalists given they couldn’t even beat the aging back playless books with a fruit loop coach. A lot wales’ play was pretty aimless and the arrogance of their halfback when scoring a try and nearly starting a fight at the final whistle showed a lack of cool
October 16th 2011 @ 7:07am
Moaman said | October 16th 2011 @ 7:07am | Report comment
JB that is a good-and for you,remarkably sane,way of looking at it.I shall adopt that method if I may?
To use your ‘war’ analogy a moment longer…we mourn(and rightfully so)our war dead that are sadly,increasingly occurring but do we ever stop to think about how many people OUR soldiers are killing>? It is all about PERSPECTIVE.
I was thinking this morning about how this hitherto successful RWC is now being regarded in England,now their team is out,in RSA,now BL is a wanted man and Wales? Green lantern wants SA to secede from the union(sanzar)ffs!
October 16th 2011 @ 7:11am
Johnny-boy said | October 16th 2011 @ 7:11am | Report comment
I slip in to sanity occasionally
October 16th 2011 @ 7:56am
DanSA said | October 16th 2011 @ 7:56am | Report comment
Dude, like in a lot of countries and especially in rugby mad countries such as SA, NZ and Wales (probably less inclined) you always find that. South Africans are very bad at rational thought sometimes, lol
The refs are making the RWC contentious, not the teams, players or other countries. If the IRB can sort out and HELP referees make better, more consistent decisions, then everyone will be happy.
South Africa (in spite of what Green Lantern says) will not leave SANZAR, especially given the recent show of solidarity between the three nations the last week.
October 16th 2011 @ 8:00am
Moaman said | October 16th 2011 @ 8:00am | Report comment
Good to hear Dan!
October 16th 2011 @ 12:21pm
zhenry said | October 16th 2011 @ 12:21pm | Report comment
We can be mindless idiots and take the law literally and ignore the why and circumstances. The Greek dramatists new how to set up tragedy with absolutes, what saved them was the writing.
Within the IRB directives you quote MM, a yellow card could still be awarded.
I was not at the ground (Spiro describes it as ‘crowd winced’); on TV it was noticeable but to me it seemed acceptable because it happened in a split second and it flowed with the fast running action of the game (at the time). The slow motion made it into something else altogether, but did reveal that he was not dropped from a great height and the tackle did not appear to be driven down.
The game was ruined for me and I am sure for many others. The psychological blow was too great for Wales who could not convert winning opportunities.
Nice sneaky deception Spiro to ‘equate’ ABs and WBs as both having injuries. I did not notice that Cooper is not playing for WBs; Pocock is more important than Cooper and he might have injury limitations but he is not grappling with a bl…y (the Eds here can be ‘Rolland’ like) screw in his foot. The main AB strike weapons are compromised, not so for WBs. Beale is surely a loss, but Reid is still getting back from injury. That of course does not mean the ABs cannot win but tactics and other players will have to compensate.
Have to mention Melody on NZ fox (think they got her from Maori TV), she managed on at least two occasions to cram a last minute negative (also out of context) about the ABs: How much did her AU paymasters pay her for that? Then there is the problem of awful commentary from the two ‘free to airs’.
October 16th 2011 @ 7:08am
Josh said | October 16th 2011 @ 7:08am | Report comment
Putting his hand deliberately into the ‘dropped’ players as well! Come on it was intentional, dirty and stupid. Red card well deserved – well done the ref.
October 16th 2011 @ 9:37am
Stin said | October 16th 2011 @ 9:37am | Report comment
It’s another example of a farcical rugby law. He didnt drive him into the ground, and wales lose their best player after 18 mins and the french winger gets up and dusts himself off. Thus, Again, the ref has pretty mych decided the outcome of a game. Joke!
October 16th 2011 @ 4:54am
swifty said | October 16th 2011 @ 4:54am | Report comment
lets not pretend wales were world beaters. when was the last time they beat a SH team?
October 16th 2011 @ 9:58am
Brendon said | October 16th 2011 @ 9:58am | Report comment
They beat Australia in 2008
October 16th 2011 @ 1:29pm
Chuck said | October 16th 2011 @ 1:29pm | Report comment
Three years is a long time ago.
October 16th 2011 @ 1:48pm
Brett McKay said | October 16th 2011 @ 1:48pm | Report comment
Tonga, three weeks ago…
October 16th 2011 @ 5:28pm
Kane said | October 16th 2011 @ 5:28pm | Report comment
*Samoa
October 16th 2011 @ 7:51pm
Ivan Nel said | October 16th 2011 @ 7:51pm | Report comment
Wales really did look good this WC, as a springbok fan i was pleasantly surprised to see their rise. They were unfortunate to play with 14, i think they were far better than Australia in this WC. Wales should have gotten the win against SA with that kick, and they would have knocked off Aus in their Quarter – and lost to NZ in their Semi. SA would have beaten Ireland and France to setup the real final – SA vs. NZ
today we see how normal pocock is when the ref actually pings his infringements. Go All Blacks.
October 16th 2011 @ 9:26pm
Mike said | October 16th 2011 @ 9:26pm | Report comment
We were always going to see that Ivan, same for Richie McCaw.
Bryce Lawrence didn’t give special advantage to Pocock, he played the same rules for everyone (very loose ones). you didn’t have a fetcher, so you were vulnerable to Pocock. Under another ref, the whole course of the match would have been different.
October 16th 2011 @ 10:00pm
Ivan Nel said | October 16th 2011 @ 10:00pm | Report comment
Lets agree to disagree – however Bryce did, my point now is – that SA were a better team on the day than Aus – but made some crucial mistakes that cost them points. Aus won the game, but most would feel SA (having taken their chances) should have won. They were dominant and the Aussies really had to dig in on defense to win – it leaves me thinking that SA were stronger than Aus in this Cup, and Pocock made some incredible steals that, as we saw today, should have cost Aus points. im not saying SA didnt do anything illegal, but with the amount of territory they had, it would probably have cost them less points – and in a 2 point game, it only took 1 penalty to change it.
Pocock is a good player, very good – so give him that much and Australia are a quality team, but they did not put their best down at this tournament, and as such – a more fitting final would have been SA NZ.
i cant see France upsetting NZ now, unless they pull one of their rabbits in the hat moves – but its unlikely, only SA would have given NZ a run here – because they have the forward power to beat NZ upfront, and stop momentum for those dangerous runnners.
so you can have that one, Australia did beat SA – but it shouldnt have happened for the sake of the game.
or more telling, SA shouldnt have beaten Wales – then this argument becomes null. I think SA would have beaten IReland and France and have made the final on the other side.
October 16th 2011 @ 4:57am
west said | October 16th 2011 @ 4:57am | Report comment
NO DOUBT, winner of todays test has won the world cup. France rugby has little chance of beating Wallabies or All Blacks in a final. The real final is today and could go either way, hope the rugby is more interesting than the boring display last night.
October 16th 2011 @ 5:43am
grandpabhaile said | October 16th 2011 @ 5:43am | Report comment
The real final is today?
Australia had a poorly performing ref to guide them home against SA by 2 points in a dour slugfest last week. They beat USA and Russia for the majority of their tries in this RWC.
They’ve had one try between their games against SA and Ireland, and have kicked the leather off the ball the rest of the time.
Hardly world-beaters.
October 16th 2011 @ 7:54am
niwdEyaJ said | October 16th 2011 @ 7:54am | Report comment
not world beaters… yet. still have to be NZ in NZ… Wallabies have had a few shockers this season (Samoa, Ireland etc) but that’s more a mentality/maturity thing – the fact is they are a side on the up and have now beaten NZ a couple of times in recent history and have a 6 from 7 record against SA… given NZ and SA are ranked 1 and 3, I think that puts the Wallabies up there as contenders for the “world beaters” crown. And if they get another one over the ABs in the semi, I’d argue they are deserved winners of the title.
October 16th 2011 @ 8:01am
grandpabhaile said | October 16th 2011 @ 8:01am | Report comment
SA aren’t ranked 3 any longer. France will be on the back of today’s result.
October 16th 2011 @ 10:00am
drewprint said | October 16th 2011 @ 10:00am | Report comment
When the Wallabies defeated them in last weeks quarter final, they were ranked 3. Don’t be obtuse.
October 16th 2011 @ 7:59am
DanSA said | October 16th 2011 @ 7:59am | Report comment
Maybe, if NZ goes through I doubt they’ll underestimate France, given that they probably did that twice to their peril
October 16th 2011 @ 8:21am
ChrisT said | October 16th 2011 @ 8:21am | Report comment
The real final would have been if the Saffers had got through. If France have lucked a final, Australia’s appearance in a semi is even more unjust.
October 16th 2011 @ 9:55am
Scotty said | October 16th 2011 @ 9:55am | Report comment
Justice doesn’t come into it. The only thing that matters is the score at the end of the game.
There is no such thing as “deserving” to win a game – you either do, or you don’t. England 2002-2003 taught the rugby world that surely?
October 16th 2011 @ 2:43pm
ChrisT said | October 16th 2011 @ 2:43pm | Report comment
Nah. You do or you don’t win is just a truism. Deserving it or not is the reality we chose to ignore when it suits us.
October 16th 2011 @ 11:46am
Sage said | October 16th 2011 @ 11:46am | Report comment
To accurately observe an injustice ones thinking usually should be judicious and balanced which clearly leaves you on the sideline ChrisT. Actually, not on the sideline, in the far cubicle of the toilet block at the back row of the stadium would be closer to the position of your objectivity. “Aus apperaing is unjust”. Well there will be a “real” final ChrsiT and the Bokke won’t be there mate. Such is life
October 16th 2011 @ 2:46pm
ChrisT said | October 16th 2011 @ 2:46pm | Report comment
Well, i’ll leave being judicious and balanced to the judicially balanced – erring to the accurate, i’d say the ‘real’ final is October 23rd mate
October 16th 2011 @ 7:58pm
Ivan Nel said | October 16th 2011 @ 7:58pm | Report comment
How are aus doing with a real ref ? Englands ugly wins are something the Boks have also done for some time, theres a difference between winning ugly, and winning by way of the referee. Very different.
October 16th 2011 @ 9:28pm
Mike said | October 16th 2011 @ 9:28pm | Report comment
True, Ivan, and South Africa came very close to winning by way of the ref last week. But in the end, the result went according to form. Too bad.
October 16th 2011 @ 10:03pm
Ivan Nel said | October 16th 2011 @ 10:03pm | Report comment
Ok then – in fear of you posting another 253 times on this and forgetting to feed your kids – Australia won, end of story.
October 16th 2011 @ 12:23pm
Dan said | October 16th 2011 @ 12:23pm | Report comment
4 more years boys!!!! lol Saffas cant handle the truth you have 600,000 plus registered players Aus has 85,000 why are you not the dominant force you should be simple the mass disparity between your egos and how good you actually are
suck it up boys or drink some cement…
it was not luck just pure gutsy defence you (SA )through everything at us and could not breach our line give credit where its due….I do…..
either way back to the drawing board for your uninspiring/boring style of rugga come back when you get the ball to your speedsters like habana…..
October 16th 2011 @ 2:48pm
ChrisT said | October 16th 2011 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
Dan, i fear you have kicked yourself in the head once to often with your knee-jerk assumptions. Not everyone holding the opinion the Wallabies are lucky to make the semi is a Saffa.
October 16th 2011 @ 7:59pm
Ivan Nel said | October 16th 2011 @ 7:59pm | Report comment
Did your parents ask you to run away when you were a kid ?
Fair enough, Boks wil be back next year – with a new coach – and some really exciting players coming in,
watch the Boks become the best at the running game.
October 16th 2011 @ 9:50pm
Mike said | October 16th 2011 @ 9:50pm | Report comment
You certainly have that opportunity. Some of the new Saffa talent coming through is exciting. Not just Goosen
October 16th 2011 @ 1:34pm
Chuck said | October 16th 2011 @ 1:34pm | Report comment
So with all this talk of “Real finals” to use your own analogy the 2007 champions never had a real final as NZ wasn’t there.
I love it how self righteous many bloggers are getting France has done what they have needed to to make the final and all credit to them. The Red card was deserved and Wales have no one else to blame except Sam Warburton.
Just sounds like a lot of sour grapes in here. If France are so poor the English and Welsh must have been abysmal.
October 16th 2011 @ 2:50pm
ChrisT said | October 16th 2011 @ 2:50pm | Report comment
Yeah. They were.
October 16th 2011 @ 8:52pm
Ivan Nel said | October 16th 2011 @ 8:52pm | Report comment
Yes that right. NZ vs. SA would have been the real final that year, unfortunately they also got the brunt of the referee. Not SA’s fault, just as its not NZ’s fault SA were robbed this year.
In SA we prefer to beat the best, to win – and call ourselves champs.
NZ are the same,
Australia would have preferred to play Namibia in the final – Amazing how different life becomes when the ref can see. Australia lost to Ireland, should have lost to SA – hardly 3N champs.
well done NZ – its yours now surely.
October 16th 2011 @ 9:29pm
Mike said | October 16th 2011 @ 9:29pm | Report comment
Keep repeating it, Ivan, as long as you like. But that won’t make it true.
October 17th 2011 @ 6:54pm
Jerry said | October 17th 2011 @ 6:54pm | Report comment
“In SA we prefer to beat the best, to win – and call ourselves champs”
So what have you been calling yourself since 07?
(joke)
October 16th 2011 @ 5:14am
Mungehead said | October 16th 2011 @ 5:14am | Report comment
I feel it was an extremely hasty decision for one that would simply ruin the game. Was it not worth talking to the assistant referees to get their perspective? Would anyone have blamed Rolland if he had issued a yellow and left the rest for the citing commissioner? Was that not warranted given the importance of the occasion? It wasn’t deliberate foul play – dangerously reckless, even stupidly so, but Warburton did try to pull out of it (by the time it was too late, but points for intent). Rolland’s brain explosion equalled Warburton’s.
October 16th 2011 @ 5:23am
sheldon said | October 16th 2011 @ 5:23am | Report comment
Out of the teams that made the play offs the all blacks have probably the two weakest teams in their way. If they choke now it will be even funnier .
October 16th 2011 @ 5:29am
Bazza all black said | October 16th 2011 @ 5:29am | Report comment
Funny how lots of people say if abs lose tonight or next week that it is a choke…does not give much respect to the wbs. I feel for the Walsh but in the end they did not kick some easy points…
…and we NEVER write off the French. If we meet Tim next week, we will try to demolish them straight away….
October 16th 2011 @ 1:40pm
Chuck said | October 16th 2011 @ 1:40pm | Report comment
My sentiments exactly Bazza, the Wallabies wont win the ABs will choke.
I don’t think people realize the irony of labeling the ABs chokers.
By giving them this title they are admitting that there team only won because the ABs played poorly.
If anything Wales choked last night as did England the week before, seems most bloggers don’t rate the French at all yet they have knocked over England and the red hot favorites on their side of the draw.
October 16th 2011 @ 5:35am
kingplaymaker said | October 16th 2011 @ 5:35am | Report comment
The Welsh systematically cheated Samoa out of a quarter-final place and so fully deserve this punishment for their despicable behaviour.
Samoa would probably have been in the final otherwise.
After the sending off, France fell asleep assuming they would walk over Wales. Had Wales kept 15 men, the French would probably have retained their intensity so one can’t simply assume Wales would have won.
Also, the coach made the bizarre decision not to take off a back and to keep 8 forwards, when these are the players who do most of the work and the difference is felt more keenly in the forwards, especially as France were hardly spreading the ball.
What was Warbuton thinking as captain risking anything like a tackle of that type?
Yes, that was only a yellow card, but Wales voted to prevent Samoa from having players who had swapped nationality, ensured a four day turnover to critically weaken them, and got a Welsh referee to unfairly disfavour them in the South Africa-Samoa match.
Wales cheated their way into the red-carding of Paul Williams, the only other red card of the tournament, so it is absolutely fitting they were punished in kind.
So good riddance to the biggest cheats in World Cup history!!!
October 16th 2011 @ 7:09am
Johnny-boy said | October 16th 2011 @ 7:09am | Report comment
Karma can be a really cruel dude eh kpm
October 16th 2011 @ 7:53am
Mungehead said | October 16th 2011 @ 7:53am | Report comment
Pardon my skepticism, but if it were a Samoan player that received the red card in the same circumstances I have no doubt you’d be singing a very different tune.
October 16th 2011 @ 8:00am
kingplaymaker said | October 16th 2011 @ 8:00am | Report comment
Mungehead being neither in any way Samoan or Welsh I’m quite neutral and otherwise for sentimental reasons support Wales. If the Samoans had been given a fair shot, and Wales had still beaten them then things would have been different, but if the three things I mentioned had been otherwise, it would have been an awful lot harder for Wales to win.
October 16th 2011 @ 10:04am
stu said | October 16th 2011 @ 10:04am | Report comment
Paul William was red carded in the last 10 minutes samoa vs south africa match.
October 16th 2011 @ 2:41pm
Mungehead said | October 16th 2011 @ 2:41pm | Report comment
Bit of a difference between a red card in the 70th minute and one in the 20th though, which is why I think there’s something wrong with the system when it comes to red cards.
October 16th 2011 @ 8:01am
DanSA said | October 16th 2011 @ 8:01am | Report comment
I take my previous comment back, seems not just South African supporters are capable of irrational, subjective rants. Good luck to you and your psycho-analyst
October 16th 2011 @ 8:10am
kingplaymaker said | October 16th 2011 @ 8:10am | Report comment
Good luck trying to screw all three brain cells together into a simple counter-argument.
October 16th 2011 @ 8:48am
DanSA said | October 16th 2011 @ 8:48am | Report comment
Lol, don’t believe I have to do much of that, you doing very well by yourself
October 16th 2011 @ 9:00am
kingplaymaker said | October 16th 2011 @ 9:00am | Report comment
It’s brains and rudeness like yours which explains the failure of your team in fact, and it’s unpleasant psychology.
October 16th 2011 @ 11:49am
Sage said | October 16th 2011 @ 11:49am | Report comment
Geez KPM. Did you have a bowl of angry for brekky this morning
October 16th 2011 @ 10:02am
stu said | October 16th 2011 @ 10:02am | Report comment
I would have loved to see samoa knock off the boks and make the quarters – but your facts are fallacious, Paul William was red carded in the last 10 minutes samoa vs south africa match.
/www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/rugby-world-cup/8800630/Rugby-World-Cup-2011-Samoa-full-back-Paul-Williams-avoids-ban-after-red-card-against-South-Africa.html
So what on earth are you talking about when you say the biggest cheats?
October 16th 2011 @ 10:08pm
Ivan Nel said | October 16th 2011 @ 10:08pm | Report comment
Do you really believe that Samoa would have beaten Ireland and France ? They have improved, but not as much as you think. SA beat them in second gear, doing ‘just enough’ to cruise home without injuries and Ireland and France are probably as good.
Wales are not cheats buddy, They are a good team on the up, just like Samoa.
October 16th 2011 @ 10:14pm
Ivan Nel said | October 16th 2011 @ 10:14pm | Report comment
by that reasoning we could say this is all your fault. You got the flue and that meant that a doctor was on duty that night to see you, he wasnt at home to catch his wife in bed with another, and as such his dog was let out of the yard and knocked by a car, that car was made in england and required parts- which meant extra work for a welshman who works at the plant who was then delayed by 4 minutes to send the welsh team a tweet and wales never got the tweet which read – dont tip tackle – and as such warburton was sent off. how could you !
October 16th 2011 @ 5:41am
Viscount Crouchback said | October 16th 2011 @ 5:41am | Report comment
Just imagine: we could yet have an Australia – France final (with three losses already in the tournament between them). Remarkable.
I think at some point – and I’m thinking particularly of ’95 and ’07 here – we might have to conclude that the RWC is jolly good fun but doesn’t tell us much about which is the best team in the world.
October 16th 2011 @ 5:42am
kingplaymaker said | October 16th 2011 @ 5:42am | Report comment
You would say that though after your team were knocked out with such ease.
It would suddenly become serious and the ultimate indicator of value if England were the ones in the final.
October 16th 2011 @ 5:45am
grandpabhaile said | October 16th 2011 @ 5:45am | Report comment
Who is your team, Kingplaymaker?
October 17th 2011 @ 9:02am
Colin N said | October 17th 2011 @ 9:02am | Report comment
Australia.
October 16th 2011 @ 7:04am
Johnny-boy said | October 16th 2011 @ 7:04am | Report comment
Ironically vc the two teams kiwis would hate most to be in the final. Who would they Barack for then or would it be an eery stony silence
October 16th 2011 @ 9:12am
Harryonthecoast said | October 16th 2011 @ 9:12am | Report comment
Wouldn’t be an issue. They would have been to the footy the night before.
October 16th 2011 @ 1:44pm
Chuck said | October 16th 2011 @ 1:44pm | Report comment
Pretty easy really I know most of my friends and family would be barracking for France being the underdogs
October 16th 2011 @ 4:53pm
Kevin said | October 16th 2011 @ 4:53pm | Report comment
France, can’t have Aussie with three world cups can we
October 16th 2011 @ 11:59am
Sage said | October 16th 2011 @ 11:59am | Report comment
Hi VC. Thought you’d still be licking your wounds at this stage. I do believe in referencing 07 you are in fact making a less than flattering comment about your own side. I am impressed by your honesty and as to indicating the best team in the world, I have to agree with you. It has always been just a knockout competition with the vaguaries one would expect from combining injury, pool draw, refereeing and just plain luck sometimes. Well said Sir !
October 16th 2011 @ 6:04am
Justin said | October 16th 2011 @ 6:04am | Report comment
Spire – Eales and Barnes are irrelevant in this situation. It was a dangerous tackle, period. According to the laws of the game it was the correct decision. Poor execution from Warburton, simple as that.
October 16th 2011 @ 6:14am
kingplaymaker said | October 16th 2011 @ 6:14am | Report comment
Justin interestingly there’s a snap poll on rugbyheaven on whether it was a red card, and as many as 28% think it was. As an Australia/New Zealand site, they should be fairly neutral as there’s no real reason for them to want Wales or France to win in particular.
I’m sure it would rank at 1% in the British Isles. Something about perception there.
As I say above, it was a lunatic risk to attempt a tackle of that kind in a knockout round, simply because if it went wrong, as it did, the consequences were so great. Almost no other illegality can lead to a red card except fighting, and so in a knockout round there should never be even a legal lifting tackle or much more than a push in fighting, if that, as the risk is so colossally great.
October 16th 2011 @ 8:08am
niwdEyaJ said | October 16th 2011 @ 8:08am | Report comment
what about Shalk Burger’s attack on Pocock’s head (i’m sure everyone knows what I’m talking about – the clip has done the rounds in various forums).
In my opinion that was as bad if not worse than the Warburton tackle – Warburton at least pulled out when he realised he had his man past 90 degrees, Burger just kept going back at Pococks head and if that had been any normal human being they would have a broken neck.
that should have been red-carded on the same yardstick as Warburton. personally I think it deserved a yellow and citing commissioner should have suspended Burger for the rest of the cup/next 2-3 games given his record of such indiscretions.
October 16th 2011 @ 8:13am
kingplaymaker said | October 16th 2011 @ 8:13am | Report comment
niwd actually I think red cards change a game so dramatically, and are often punishments for offences that can’t quite be seen or judged in a split second, that they should either not be given or referred to a video referee. Perhaps whenever there’s a possibility of a red card the incident should be referred to the video referee.
As Robbie Deans said a year or two ago, when a red card is given it makes the game ‘nonsense’ at this level. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be given for terrible offences, but only when someone who is able to see more clearly can make the decision.
October 16th 2011 @ 8:41am
ChrisT said | October 16th 2011 @ 8:41am | Report comment
Can we please stop this nonsense about ‘pulling out’ of the tackle as if it’s some kind of defence. All that means is he dropped him. Once he’s taken him past the 90 he has a duty to get him down as safely as possible. Letting go just doesn’t qualify. Definite red, end of.
October 16th 2011 @ 6:08am
kingplaymaker said | October 16th 2011 @ 6:08am | Report comment
By the way Spiro, there’s an article of mine which was unfortunately published at a time that meant no one saw it and it vanished without trace, on all the issues that may or may not determine the result of the Wallabies/New Zealand match: it’s some way down the page on the right. Maybe you’d find it interesting.
October 16th 2011 @ 6:16am
warrenexpatinnz said | October 16th 2011 @ 6:16am | Report comment
France played poorly, Wales played poorly and the card should have been yellow.
So far the only team looking good for the final here is the ABs being as they are obviously favourites going into tonights clash but after watching two games now were teams stifle their own attacking play I don’t expect an outcome in tonights game until the last 5 minutes.