Referee Joubert can make or break the RWC final
Columnist By David Lord, 21 Oct 2011 David Lord is a Roar Expert
- Tagged:
- All Blacks, Craig Joubert, French rugby, Rugby Union, Rugby World Cup, Wales rugby, wallabies
Related coverage
- Rugby Union news
- Wallabies news
- Rugby World Cup 2011 news
- New Zealand All Blacks news
- Rugby 2011 news
Let’s hope Craig Joubert practices what he preaches when he referees the Rugby World Cup final at Eden Park on Sunday night. The 33 year-old South African firmly believes players are like children.
“They just want to know where the boundaries are. You have to deliver your message authoratively, but with respect”.
Now, that will be a first, even for Joubert.
Rival captains are perfectly entitled to question referee decisions, but Joubert treats them with disdain and a wave away of the hand.
And there’s more on the children motives. There’s another saying that kids should be seen and not heard. That applies to referees as well. They are not number one on the paddock, using the other 30 to make them look good.
Refs are number 31, and the best refs are seen but not heard.
Afterwards, fans can’t even remember who controlled the game – rugby heaven.
But there’s been no heaven in this RWC. An overdose of hell would be far more accurate, with the exception of the first two quarter-finals, played on the same day two weeks ago.
Joubert reffed the Wales-Ireland game, Steve Walsh controlled England and France, and both were as close to be seen and not heard as we’ve watched in years.
Both games had momentum, also rare in RWC 2011.
Joubert earned his semi-final appointment to ref the All Blacks and Wallabies, while Kiwi born-and-bred Australian Walsh should have been awarded the France-Wales semi.
No way known, thanks to IRB politics.
The governing body could never admit the two best refs on current form were from the southern hemisphere, so Irishman Alain Rolland won the France-Wales brief and promptly made a right royal hash of it.
That gave Joubert an armchair ride to the final, the Everest of his 16-year career that began in Natal as a corporate banker-cum-referee in his spare time to a full-time ref five years later.
Joubert’s previous career-high was controlling last year’s Super 14 final between the Bulls and Stormers. But that’s small fry compared to Sunday.
Englishman Wayne Barnes (32), who I predicted pre-tournament would ref the final if England failed to qualify, will be in charge of the Wallabies-Wales meaningless bronze medal clash tonight.
The usually free-flowing Barnes should produce some long overdue running rugby, showing the way for Joubert in the decider.
Joubert’s Achilles heel?
His reaction to the crowd. And with a predominance of Kiwis filling Eden Park, and the fact the All Blacks haven’t won a World Cup for 24 years, the crowd will give Joubert plenty of “support”.
He’ll have to go it alone, as his “touchies” – Rolland and Welshman Nigel Owen – have been abject failures as referees all tournament.
Leaving Craig Joubert to practice what he preaches if he’s to make the final memorable.
The rugby world will be watching. None more so than the French.
Recommend this story.
The Turkey 10
The Turkey 10 teams have now been selected, as Wild Turkey Bourbon's sport sponsorship kicks into the next exciting phase.
Choose which side you're going to support and get in the running to win $2,500!
Simply visit Wild Turkey Australia on Facebook for your chance to win.
Find out more.
- Explore:
- All Blacks, Craig Joubert, French rugby, Rugby Union, Rugby World Cup, Wales rugby, wallabies
October 21st 2011 @ 7:44am
Colin N said | October 21st 2011 @ 7:44am | Report comment
Point one: Isn’t that Kaplan in the picture?
Point two: Another article about referees by Mr Lord. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
October 21st 2011 @ 7:51am
Rabbitz said | October 21st 2011 @ 7:51am | Report comment
What he said…
October 21st 2011 @ 7:58am
KW said | October 21st 2011 @ 7:58am | Report comment
Yip…this is clutching at straws. In Joubert you have the best ref, what more can you ask for. Leave it be.
October 21st 2011 @ 10:12am
balmybeach said | October 21st 2011 @ 10:12am | Report comment
I agree with what David says about Steve Walsh. he should have had the second semi. Joubert (or Walsh) were the best choice for the final; I agree with David in that I don’t like the way Joubert talks to the players; he talks down to them.
It was interesting on the Planet Rugby site where they ran a poll on who should referee the RWC final…they listed 7 referees and left out Steve Walsh; a bit bizarre. I emailed them but no one ever replies to an email when you raise issues.
October 21st 2011 @ 11:42am
Jerry said | October 21st 2011 @ 11:42am | Report comment
I don’t think anyone in their right mind would have Walsh ref NZ in a World Cup final so it’s not surprising they left him off that poll.
October 21st 2011 @ 9:58am
Happy Hooker said | October 21st 2011 @ 9:58am | Report comment
What they both said
October 21st 2011 @ 9:47am
David Lord said | October 21st 2011 @ 9:47am | Report comment
CN, don’t you and a host of other Roarers realise that until referees are up to speed rugby will never ever realise its potential. There’s no point in having show-ponies taking control when it’s a sport for players and spectators. If the shortcomings of rugby don’t come to the surface, the sport can never graw. The RWC every four years is the chance to show-case rugby to the world, and to increase its following, CN, can you honestly say RWC 2011 achieved that?
October 21st 2011 @ 10:00am
Happy Hooker said | October 21st 2011 @ 10:00am | Report comment
We are obviously just not as intelligent as you David.
Change the bloody record. Can’t see what the Zavos boys see in what you seem to consider analysis.
Just get off here.
October 21st 2011 @ 8:37pm
Colin N said | October 21st 2011 @ 8:37pm | Report comment
“The RWC every four years is the chance to show-case rugby to the world, and to increase its following, CN, can you honestly say RWC 2011 achieved that?”
Yes, I do actually. IMO, it’s been the best World Cup I’ve seen, in terms of the way it’s been hosted and the quality of rugby throughout.
Re: the refs. If you take another angle, there is so much more cheating and refereeing controversy in football. Does it de-value it as a sport and spectacle? In fact, last season’s Champions League game between Real Madrid and Barcelona was one of the most entertaining I’ve seen and it was nothing to do with the quality on display.
Anyway, I digress. Change the record!!! We’ve heard it before and it’s getting boring. Also, the issue here is that there’s nothing to debate! The only other ref who would be in contention is Steve Walsh but although he’s with the ARU, he’s a Kiwi and imagine the controversy if he refereed the French out of the game?
It also annoys me when you bring up a referee when he’s had a superb tournament. I agree with you that the standard of refereeing is poor but one, you don’t need to ram it down our throats and two, What’s the debate about someone who’s done nothing wrong?
October 21st 2011 @ 10:57am
Wally James said | October 21st 2011 @ 10:57am | Report comment
No. It’s just a very bad photo of Joubert
October 21st 2011 @ 8:10pm
Colin N said | October 21st 2011 @ 8:10pm | Report comment
They changed the photo.
October 21st 2011 @ 7:54am
Patonga said | October 21st 2011 @ 7:54am | Report comment
Problem is he will go with the crowd like he did last week especially if its a 50 /50 call. But i do think he is the best Ref in the world at the moment so i wish him a great game also on this huge event.
October 21st 2011 @ 8:08am
From Over the Ditch said | October 21st 2011 @ 8:08am | Report comment
Your point regarding Walsh and Joubert are right on the button. Both men should be doing final football refereeing but the IRB still continues to dominate all aspects of the RWC 2011 Ltd.
Joubert is the perfect ref for Sunday’s game, a bit like the cross between a Parrakeet and Tiger!. When he does talk, your sure in hell better listen, and is the perfect foil for players, fans, IRB, rules and all else that matters.
Lastly, why is Wayne Barnes there? Is the IRB once again desperately trying to upset everyone. Aussie had better hope his eysight has improved and he actually sees a forward pass!
October 21st 2011 @ 11:27pm
Ben S said | October 21st 2011 @ 11:27pm | Report comment
‘Lastly, why is Wayne Barnes there? Is the IRB once again desperately trying to upset everyone. Aussie had better hope his eysight has improved and he actually sees a forward pass!’
4 years later and still this…
October 21st 2011 @ 8:27am
His Bobness said | October 21st 2011 @ 8:27am | Report comment
Not only have you put the wrong ref in the photo (that’s Kaplan, not Joubert) you’ve completely misrepresented and got arse about face what Joubert actually said in his interview this week.
He said professional sportsmen should NOT be treated like children and responded better when respected as mature, intelligent individuals.
I get the sense you wanted to write a piece whinging about referees at the RWC before discovering that the number 1 ref at the competition is adjudicating the final.
Very sloppy, old chap. Perhaps you need to address your own poor journalistic standards before you start trashing those of the match officials.
October 21st 2011 @ 10:02am
Happy Hooker said | October 21st 2011 @ 10:02am | Report comment
Its worse than sloppy. He’s got a line he wants to peddle, and will turn what someone says completely around to support his so-called argument. And I suppose he calls himself a journalist.
October 21st 2011 @ 12:03pm
Josh said | October 21st 2011 @ 12:03pm | Report comment
Thats is Joubert in the photo
…
October 21st 2011 @ 12:09pm
Jerry said | October 21st 2011 @ 12:09pm | Report comment
I think the photo has been changed.
October 21st 2011 @ 8:54am
Sailosi said | October 21st 2011 @ 8:54am | Report comment
Get over the whole ref thing, lame and boring.
–
Comment left via The Roar’s iPhone app. Download The Roar’s iPhone App in the App Store here.
October 21st 2011 @ 9:22am
katzilla said | October 21st 2011 @ 9:22am | Report comment
Doesn’t want referees to be noticed, writes articles about them every week…………….
October 21st 2011 @ 10:02am
Rusty said | October 21st 2011 @ 10:02am | Report comment
So true
October 21st 2011 @ 9:51am
Guru said | October 21st 2011 @ 9:51am | Report comment
Couldn’t agree more. So sick to death of all the referee analysis. Bryce Lawrence cost the Aussies the match against Ireland. Then he cost SA the match against Aus. Rolaind cost Wales….blah blah blah. Let’s forget the fact that the Aussie pack was monstered by Ireland, and that SA’s backs don’t know how to score tries with 80% possession & territory, or that Warburton could’ve broken a mans neck & all Rolaind did was enforce the laws of the game – as he is required to do. I find it all so pathetic & tedious that these teams, led by a chorus of whinging Saffa’s, cover up their own inadequacies by blaming the man in the middle. Grow up & own up to your own weaknesses like real men should.
October 21st 2011 @ 10:44am
David Lord said | October 21st 2011 @ 10:44am | Report comment
You’re no Guru, you have completely misrepresented the facts. I never said Lawrence cost the Wallabies against Ireland, the Wallabies never turned up to play against Ireland and the ABs, I praised Rolland for marching Warburton, he had no option, so what are you carrying on about – your weakness Guru is twisting facts to suit yourself.
October 21st 2011 @ 2:26pm
Guru said | October 21st 2011 @ 2:26pm | Report comment
Back up there David. I’m not specifying my comments at you. I’m talking about the supporters in general. All I heard from my Aussie mates post the Ireland game, was that Lawrence had a shocker and that it was basically his fault that they lost to Ireland. They were then mortified when he was given the whistle for their qtr. But this time it was the Saffa’s turn to blame him. The fallout back in SA has been nothing short of disgraceful – with Andre Watson getting involved. Hate campaigns on Facebook. One paper has even gone as far as requesting an investigation by the IRB to prove that match fixing wasn’t in place. I find this boorish behavior from supporters quite pathetic, when they are clearly over looking glaring weakenesses in their own teams performances. I said before the cup started that the Aussie tight 5 was weak esp their scrum, and also that SA relied far too much on the Steyn’s kicking goals rather than spreading the ball wide & scoring tries. Habana might as well not even take the field these days. So when these weaknesses were exposed in the big matches, it’s like ‘oh, if it wasn’t for the ref we would’ve won’. It also doesn’t help such behavior when you write pieces like this on a guy who has easily been the best ref in the world for the past couple of years. Your point?
October 22nd 2011 @ 12:26am
DanSA said | October 22nd 2011 @ 12:26am | Report comment
Ok, point taken, the teams need to take responsibility, however stating the ref has no impact is also not correct. I watched the game between Wales and the Wallabies today and if the Wales tries in the 2nd half where again dodgy, due to the forward pass from Hook and whether Williams’s foot was over the line for their last try.
Your point seems to be that teams should not complain about refereeing if they have weaknesses. That’s a limited view for everyone except the ABs. It does not however mean that it is justified that these teams lost where the referees where inconsistant or made mistakes, especially for the teams and supporters on the loosing side.
All these teams are professionals who spend a large amount of time training and preparing at great cost, sometimes they under achieve and sometimes they over achieve, a lot of the times the margin between winning and loosing is spotting one knock on. These players and coaches are also rewarded and employed based on that.
Surely they deserve a group of referees who prepare and can referee to the same degree as the top teams?
October 22nd 2011 @ 8:09am
David Lord said | October 22nd 2011 @ 8:09am | Report comment
My point Guru is two-fold. Firstly the rules of rugby are so complex it requires a rocket scientist to apply them – and secondly it’s the same rule book, and same words, but with vastly different interpretations by the northern hemisphere refs, and the south. Nett result utter confusion, choking the code.
October 22nd 2011 @ 1:10pm
Guru said | October 22nd 2011 @ 1:10pm | Report comment
I actually love the referee aspect of rugby, it’s what makes it unique compared to some of the other codes. That’s why I’ll leave the game where you have to count to 6 and watch the team kick the ball down field, and then count to six again – to those who prefer a simple game.
October 21st 2011 @ 12:45pm
Lee said | October 21st 2011 @ 12:45pm | Report comment
Hang on a seond Guru – blaiming the Saffas?
How much moaning was there from the Aussies when Bryce was handed the quarter final?
How much moaning was there about Barnes from the Kiwis…
Every nation has had it’s share in blaming the ref, you are twisting things to suit your arguement at the moment, simply because your team got the rub of the green this time around.
October 21st 2011 @ 2:37pm
Guru said | October 21st 2011 @ 2:37pm | Report comment
Hey buddy – my team didn’t even make the knockout rounds. So what facts am I twisting to suit my own teams rub of the green exactly?
October 21st 2011 @ 6:45pm
Warren said | October 21st 2011 @ 6:45pm | Report comment
Yes every nation does have a share in blaming refs, but not every nation sets up HATE pages on facebook or calls for match fixing investigations. As for a professional ref Andre Watson to get involved is just disgraceful. Shame on you Watson. I live in South Africa and I have seen the aftermath of ref Bryce Lawrences’ display in the quarters. Four years ago I was told not blame Barnes for not seeing the forward pass in the game NZ against France. Now the Bok supporters are even more vocal than any NZ supporter I have seen after THAT game.
Refs are human, they make mistakes. Deal with it. Move on.
October 22nd 2011 @ 12:30am
DanSA said | October 22nd 2011 @ 12:30am | Report comment
Really, AB supporters behaved nice and controlled? 4 years ago Wayne Barnes received death threats, same as Rolland after Wales went out.
October 22nd 2011 @ 2:41pm
Guru said | October 22nd 2011 @ 2:41pm | Report comment
Did you once hear Richie McCaw or Graham Henry openly blame their loss on Barnes in any media interviews. I think not. Shame on Smit, Watson & co. I lost a lot of respect for the guy after that.
October 22nd 2011 @ 8:40pm
DanSA said | October 22nd 2011 @ 8:40pm | Report comment
Show me a quote where John Smit or Peter de Villiers blamed the loss on Bryce?
David Lord paraphrased a quoting John Smit stating “His refereeing of the breakdown was disgraceful. He let David Pocock get away with murder. Little wonder he won the man-of-the-match award”, which I cannot find anywhere else quoted using Google. I don’t know where he (David) got this from, but I’m sure he is accurate as always in his research …
This is what I do find he said:
”Bryce is not difficult to communicate with, he just doesn’t seem to listen very well. It’s like asking my wife for a weekend off. The one positive (of retirement) is that I won’t ever have to be reffed by him again.”
The articles all say he (Smit) blames the ref for the loss, I’m not sure how the can be deduced from that quote. Many South Africans do. I definitely think he had a significant impact on it.
Strangely enough Steve Hansen echoed the sentiments as Smit before the semis:
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/rugby-gold/dubious-tactics-and-cheating-claims-prove-kiwis-fear-pocock/story-fn8t3217-1226166264205
As for Watson is an ex referee who gave his views, so much like other “people” in SA,NZ, Aus, England, Wales, Ireland, etc., who say stupid things all the time. SA like NZ and Wales are rugby mad countries, with people who get emotional about the game.
October 22nd 2011 @ 12:37am
DanSA said | October 22nd 2011 @ 12:37am | Report comment
As for Refs making mistakes, I agree, however if a referee repeatedly makes mistakes then he should not referee important games, i.e. he either needs more training or should go referee lower level games to work in the problems.
Coaches and players also make mistakes, however if they are repeatedly bad then they get dropped. So why not referees?
I’m not saying they should fire these referees, however you cannot blame supporters being pissed off when the IRB “close ranks” around this issue all the time. Like Joubert said, the referees should be open to admit errors and the IRB should work on resolving these gaps, whether through improved training, fitness levels or using ARs and technology better.
October 22nd 2011 @ 12:59pm
Guru said | October 22nd 2011 @ 12:59pm | Report comment
I think you touched on a point here, that ultimately sums up the issue I have here. ‘if players are continually bad, then they get dropped’. Add to that coaches as well – get fired. Ok, so why did SA continue to play ‘past it’ players who had seriously in-form under studies sitting on the bench i.e Bismarck & Hougaard. Was it Lawrences fault that the Boks coach was so inept that he ignored form to start players that were no longer up to it. Funnily enough one of those players dropped the ball cold with try line begging. Was it Lawrences fault that Steyn (I think it was him) – couldn’t simply draw a man and pass the ball backwards to put his man into score. Take a look back at SA’s performances this year – even in the 3N. Couldn’t score a try vs Aus in Durban, couldn’t score a try vs the ABs in Port Elizabeth. Could only manage 1 vs Samoa in pool play and then could’nt score again in qtr vs Australia, despite a ridiculous amount of possession & territory. How long did Habana go without scoring a try for SA? An inept one dimensional game plan implemented by a coach out of his depth. So simple for Smith to go back to SA and incite a hate campaign against Lawrence, when he should’ve taken a good hard look at himself in the mirror and been honest and stepped aside 2-3 years ago. It’s just so easy to overlook all this and blame the ref isn’t it. As David says – you need to be a rocket scientist to enforce the rules, however one thing will remain true – if you have ample chances to win the game & you don’t take them, then you have no one else to blame but yourselves!
October 22nd 2011 @ 1:48pm
Guru said | October 22nd 2011 @ 1:48pm | Report comment
One last point about the absurdity of all this finger pointing. I remember the praise Lawrence got in the SA media a couple of years back in the first Lions test match when he repeatedly penalised the Lions scrum. Funny that huh, I guess that was because the Boks finished first that day!!
October 22nd 2011 @ 9:19pm
DanSA said | October 22nd 2011 @ 9:19pm | Report comment
I’m confused, so your saying that the only way the Boks would have won that game against Australia was if we played the “in form” players and scored more tries?
Saying with all that possession the boks should have won, if we had the best players playing and if the coach was competent is one view.
Another is saying that if the defending side is allowed to slow the ball down illegally then their defenses can reorganise as not to allow mismatches and overlaps. If the illegal tactics at the breakdown is penalised then the attacking team can get points for all the advantage. Also if this is repeated then the defending team could get a yellow card.
So when well refereed then the attacking team can use the territory and possession to create overlaps and defensive gaps to score tries.
Kinda like the 1st 8 minutes in the AB v Aus semi final when Pocock was penalised twice for slowing the ball down, and that did not happen much after that.
Whether the Boks would still have won if the breakdown was reffed correctly is debateable. However saying they did not deserve to win because your saying they had too many old players and a crap coach is insulting.
My point is also not just about that game, the same applies for the Wales vs France semi and the 3rd place playoff yesterday. In the Wales vs France semi a penalty was awarded near the end to Wales incorrectly, which if converted would have kicked France out of the RWC. Saying France did not deserve to be there because they are playing inconsistent rugby does not mean that they (and their) supporters should have abided by that call.
Last night the Welsh scored 1, possibly 2 tries when the ball went forward and possibly out. Would that have been a fair result as well?
Your argument seems to rely on Karma, mine doesn’t. I think the refereeing standard is currently bad, whether through complex rules (I’d argue whether that’s the case if some referees can be better though) or below par referees. I think this can and should be addressed.
October 23rd 2011 @ 12:48am
Guru said | October 23rd 2011 @ 12:48am | Report comment
My comments have absolutely nothing to do with karma whatsoever. I’m getting pissed off with teams and their supporters glossing over their own inadequacies by trying to pinpoint blame on a referee. It’s a pretty simple argument. I text one of my best mates after the SA V AUS qtr final – who happens to be a South African – and I simply asked “how did you lose that”. His response was 9 words: “Poor team selection, poor tactics and a poor coach”. I’m sorry if the brutal facts are insulting to you, but sometimes the truth does hurt. I have so much respect for my mate after that response. He’d also said to me previously after the Wales v SA game & the Samoa V SA game “we are playing poor rugby”, “now what are we going to do with no F.Steyn to kick 60m penalties.” Therein lies one of the main reasons that SA got bundled out in the qtr finals. If I was Australian, I’d actually be insulted that their heroic 160+ tackles and the fact they kicked their goals and took their ‘one opportunity’ when on attack and scored, is being completely disregarded by you Bok supporters. To be blunt, it’s sour grapes, cowardly & poor sportsmanship. Suck it up, take it on the chin, and hope like hell your next coach has a clue, picks the best players and can find a creative halves combination. Hougaard & Lambie. There’s a start for you.
October 21st 2011 @ 10:06am
Rusty said | October 21st 2011 @ 10:06am | Report comment
The only thing Barnes will show Joubert is how to continue play over seriously injured players and how to miss forward passes and Im not even refering to THAT pass in ’07. Just look at the Welsh Samoa game for a few examples. I used to think he was quite good but like a lot of other refs he has been rather umimpressive this tournament. Joubert has been head and shoulders above any other ref and deservedly gets the showpiece match. As for his so called achilles – I dont believe that. He awards the more dominant team at the contact – which is how it should be. If that team happens to be the home side which are usually the most revved by the crowd then so be it.
October 21st 2011 @ 10:10am
Manoa said | October 21st 2011 @ 10:10am | Report comment
It’s a game with a contest for possession just like basketball, soccer, netball etc, refs will always be noticed get over it!!!!!!!
–
Comment left via The Roar’s iPhone app. Download The Roar’s iPhone App in the App Store here.
October 21st 2011 @ 10:56am
Wally James said | October 21st 2011 @ 10:56am | Report comment
I once reffed a game by the then Australian Coaching Director. After the game I asked him how I went from his perspective.
He said “I don’t know. I don’t look at how refs go. They don’t matter really. If my team plays the way I coach them to they should win. I only look at how the players play”
Not a bad lesson really.
Refs are always effecting the outcome of a game. That’s part of their job description. A bad decision by them can have just as much effect as a player’s missed tackle or knock-on. Rugby is a game played by humans after all. The sort of ref bashing that David Lord indulges in is narrow minded I think.
Some refs are going to be better than others. All refs make mistakes. Fair enough but it’s hardly headline material is it?
October 22nd 2011 @ 12:41am
DanSA said | October 22nd 2011 @ 12:41am | Report comment
I agree partially. Some sports have had better success and the quality of the top referees are very close. Cricket comes to mind for me. Saying some referees will always be better is ok, however I think they can get the gap between the top referees and the rest much closer