France slapped with ridiculous haka fine
Roar Guru By John Davidson, 25 Oct 2011 John Davidson is a Roar Guru
- Tagged:
- All Blacks, Haka, Rugby Union, Rugby World Cup
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France advance on the All Blacks' haka (EPA/Kim Ludbrook)
The IRB has once again shot itself in the foot with a stupid decision, slapping France with a $15,000 fine for advancing on the haka during the Rugby World Cup final.
The IRB has form with lamentable decisions at this World Cup, and this was is no different.
The France-New Zealand was a pulsating affair, a tense final that was climatic and enjoyable. But no-one was expecting it before the game.
Considering the form of both teams heading into the final – France had lost to Tonga for god’s sake – most were predicting an easy win for the All Blacks.
But France didn’t roll over and almost stole the cup. And the moment that signalled their intention that they were here to play and not surrender meekly came before kick-off.
It came as the All Blacks did their signature war dance, where the French linked arms and moved into a V formation. The French showed that they were not going to lie down by that gesture, and that they were not over-awed or intimidated. Good on them.
Some of the players may have just over-stepped the halfway line, but so what? The French weren’t that close to the All Blacks. There was still 10 metres between them. They weren’t within touching distance, and they showed respect to the Kiwis by genuinely accepting the challenge.
I think the haka is great. It adds to the spectacle of any game the All Blacks are involved in, and is a wonderful part of world rugby. But in many ways it gives the All Blacks a leg-up before every match. They pump themselves up with a part of Maori culture, while the other team stands there placidly.
Is that fair? I’m not advocating that the haka should be axed, or for opposing teams to put their backs to the All Blacks as they carry it out as some teams have done in the past.
The Welsh made the All Blacks do their haka in the dressing rooms in a Cardiff Test a few years back and were duly thrashed.
But the opposition should be allowed to have a reasonable response to the haka, something that squares the ledger somewhat and unifies them as a team. It has to be respectful and not over-the-top.
The French did this, so why IRB would the punish them? They made the final into a genuine World Cup classic, so the IRB should be thanking them not punishing them.
Give them a warning for heaven’s sake, but the fine is just another example that the IRB is a out-dated, ineffective and authoritarian organisation that is desperate need of reform.
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October 25th 2011 @ 11:02am
Brett McKay said | October 25th 2011 @ 11:02am | Report comment
John, excuse my cut and paste, but this post also applied for you:
“..just to clarify, the £10,000 fine isn’t actually for advancing, rather it’s for four instances of players crossing the halfway line (£2500 each). Though the IRB overlords want teams to remain on their side of their 10m line normally for hakas and war dances, for the RWC they allowed the opposition to stand on halfway. Four French players went beyond halfway, and thus the fine.
Now someone with more time than me will have to check the tape, but I’ve got a recollection that at least two ABs – and I think it was Ali Williams and Richard Kahui on the front corners – advanced beyond their 10m line. If this is the case, surely there has to be some consistency here…”
October 25th 2011 @ 11:16am
Paul_From_Melbourne said | October 25th 2011 @ 11:16am | Report comment
If there was to be consistency, then fines would have to be imposed if players past the 10m line. If players were allowed all the way to halfway line. Then you might as well allow them to kiss each other as well.
October 25th 2011 @ 1:44pm
B-Rock said | October 25th 2011 @ 1:44pm | Report comment
Why should there be any restrictions on either team? As long as it doesnt come to blows, whats the problem? Let both teams take up the challenge as they see fit.
The further both teams advance, the better IMO. I thought it was great how France advanced on them – not sure about the hand holding though…
The only better pre-game entertainment is when two island teams perform their respective war dances at the same time, facing off. A brilliant start to the game.
October 25th 2011 @ 7:59pm
amband said | October 25th 2011 @ 7:59pm | Report comment
it may come to blows if that happened. Islanders have a reputation for a short fuse and they may react
keeping the distance is not a bad idea
October 26th 2011 @ 3:15pm
amband said | October 26th 2011 @ 3:15pm | Report comment
no 10 m line here. As far respect for the Haka, look at the end of this Haka. I think those deserving of respect are their opponents
October 25th 2011 @ 11:38am
WQ said | October 25th 2011 @ 11:38am | Report comment
None of the All Blacks advanced past the 10 m line during the Haka, however Ali Williams walked up to where he had placed his headgear before they started and picked it up, which was on the All Black side of halfway.
New Zealanders have no problem with anybody challenging the Haka, in fact it is an excellent outcome that only pumps the All Blacks up even more. The problems start when the challenge is completed without having to stick to the same rules as the All Blacks have to when issueing the Haka i.e. stay behind the 10m line.
It’s not hard really!!!!!
October 25th 2011 @ 1:41pm
BennO said | October 25th 2011 @ 1:41pm | Report comment
That adds further to the idiocy of the IRB’s decision then because the entire team was over halfway by the end.
I wish the IRB would just stay out of this sort of thing. That was a fantastic response to the haka, up there with Wales in 2008(?). Great theatre that is appreciated by most. As the french commentators said, “Le V pour Victoire!” Sensational.
October 25th 2011 @ 9:22pm
Gaullois said | October 25th 2011 @ 9:22pm | Report comment
Ah ah the rugby board prohibed this video, why ? Because the IRB is stupid and dishonest. The arbitror Joubert stole the cup to the french, and to compensate for the IRB provides the prize for best player Dussautoire. We should laugh or cry? SHAME on IRB, SHAME on ABs, SHAME on Joubert.
If the ABs are great so they must says thanks to French Team about “colors” wich permits them to play in black, sorry about insults on newspaper, and pay the fine for the French team.
October 25th 2011 @ 9:37pm
Mike said | October 25th 2011 @ 9:37pm | Report comment
Why do I get the impression that there are a few “French” trawling the roar who are about as genuine as the French knights in Holy Grail?
October 26th 2011 @ 2:26pm
amband said | October 26th 2011 @ 2:26pm | Report comment
So the IRB own the copyright of the haka
So much for respect for Maori culture
October 25th 2011 @ 6:44pm
Seiran said | October 25th 2011 @ 6:44pm | Report comment
Brett, watching the clip below, it looks to me that all the french crossed the halfway line and were a few metres over.
A couple of AB’s also croassed the 10m line.
October 25th 2011 @ 7:17pm
Brett McKay said | October 25th 2011 @ 7:17pm | Report comment
quite right Seiran, BennO’s clip above shows it too, the French team as one are well in NZ’s half. I’ll give the ABs the benefit of the doubt, a couple get close – Ali Williams one of them – but Kahui definitely crosses it.
Anyway, I suppose we’d have a quiet time if the IRB gave us nothing to talk about…
October 30th 2011 @ 8:24am
Gaullois said | October 30th 2011 @ 8:24am | Report comment
Too easy, punish french and not ABs !!!!
October 25th 2011 @ 11:05am
AGO74 said | October 25th 2011 @ 11:05am | Report comment
It seems that the IRB is afflicted with the same personality attriibutes as their FIFA counterparts in that it’s Exec Committee seem to believe that the game is all about them and that rugby players, coaches, supporters etc should just bow down to them and thank them for giving the earth this sporting event.
Honestly – what a bunch of tools.
October 25th 2011 @ 11:06am
Dan said | October 25th 2011 @ 11:06am | Report comment
What the hell is with this rule anyway? Surely teams should have a right to advance on the Haka! It’s a challenge FFS. Teams should have the right to face it however they damn well like!
October 25th 2011 @ 11:08am
AGO74 said | October 25th 2011 @ 11:08am | Report comment
I remember the haka before the League World Cup Final when Benji and co advanced to the point of doing it nose to nose with the Kangaroos. It was brilliant theatre!
October 25th 2011 @ 11:41am
WQ said | October 25th 2011 @ 11:41am | Report comment
Agree completely Dan, however make the rules the same for everybody.
If the All Blacks must stay behind the 10m line to deliver the challenge then their opposition have to stay behind the 10m line to respond.
Simple really
October 25th 2011 @ 12:47pm
Mike said | October 25th 2011 @ 12:47pm | Report comment
The issue is not applying the same rules, but the ludicrous fine. i.e. its not NZRU or ABs who are under scrutiny, but the IRB
October 25th 2011 @ 1:15pm
WQ said | October 25th 2011 @ 1:15pm | Report comment
I don’t disagree with you Mike.
However this all started a few years back when the IRB started applying rules to the All Blacks to ensure that they did not encroach past the half way line when delivering the Haka, which has since been changed to the 10m line.
This was done in response to Countries moaning about the perceived advantage the All Blacks gain out of delivering the Haka and the perceived aggressive nature of the Haka.
To make things fair the IRB then simply applied the rule to any response to the Haka.
This is why I make the point about making the rules the same for everybody.
October 25th 2011 @ 1:28pm
Magic Rat said | October 25th 2011 @ 1:28pm | Report comment
“perceived aggressive nature of the haka”
Seriously?
October 25th 2011 @ 8:00pm
amband said | October 25th 2011 @ 8:00pm | Report comment
that’s what is is
October 26th 2011 @ 9:44am
Magic Rat said | October 26th 2011 @ 9:44am | Report comment
So the Haka isn’t aggressive, it is just perceived to be?
What a load of…
October 26th 2011 @ 3:39pm
amband said | October 26th 2011 @ 3:39pm | Report comment
I know what you mean, but we must be diplomatic rather than be truthful lest we upset emotionally delicate people
October 25th 2011 @ 1:04pm
soapit said | October 25th 2011 @ 1:04pm | Report comment
do we even need a rule at all for this? its not like there are fights breaking out and if that happened (extremely unlikley) you could easily fine them for that.
October 25th 2011 @ 9:04pm
Roy said | October 25th 2011 @ 9:04pm | Report comment
Exactly! … it’s absurd to regulate this sort of thing. How petty.
October 25th 2011 @ 11:08am
Dasher said | October 25th 2011 @ 11:08am | Report comment
“The Welsh made the All Blacks do their haka in the dressing rooms in a Cardiff Test a few years back and were duly thrashed.”
I might be wrong, but I thought the Kiwis did the haka in the dressing rooms of their own accord. There was a dispute where Wales wanted to do their national anthem last – after the haka – and the Kiwis completely flipped out at the suggestion. Wales stood firm, as they should have, since it was at their home ground and it is custom for the home nation to sing their anthem last.
October 25th 2011 @ 11:17am
Jiggles said | October 25th 2011 @ 11:17am | Report comment
That’s exactly what happened. It’s ridiculous how they expect every nation to stand to and accept their silly little jig which has no tradition whats so ever.
October 25th 2011 @ 11:43am
WQ said | October 25th 2011 @ 11:43am | Report comment
There is no expectation that opposing Teams stand and watch the Haka.
They can go and do as they like, the All Blacks will deliver the challenge regardless.
October 25th 2011 @ 11:51am
Sage said | October 25th 2011 @ 11:51am | Report comment
If in doubt re: historical significance, google haka 1973 and check out the performance. It has taken on a new significance in more modern times, there is no great historical value. Letting one team whip themselves into a frenzy when the other team not only isn’t given that advantage, they can’t move too far forward, can’t wink, blow a kiss or whatever or they’ll be fined. It is not an even start to any test for any country when this is allowed.
Ali Williams has moved over that line a number of times this year alone. I’ve been particulalrly watching him as I did on Sunday. He’s been warned and just pulled up on Sunday but Kahui was well and truly over the line. Mention of a fine for him ????? Of course not. I have no issue with the Haka itself, it’s the way it has been allowed to evolve unfairly to other teams. A great spectacle and part of Kiwi/Maori culture. Do it before the anthem rather than just before kick off. The honour of being the last to enjoy an emotional psyche up should always go the home nation as Brett mentioned above with regard to the Welch. Imagine if other nations noted the example set by the Kiwi spectators and just booed it………….
October 25th 2011 @ 11:59am
WQ said | October 25th 2011 @ 11:59am | Report comment
It worked a treat for the Welsh did’nt it!
They not only got flogged by the All Blacks but their fans gave them a flogging as well. The Welsh public were gutted that they did not get to see the All Blacks complete their Haka. As a result of this it has never happened again.
It has become wonderful entertainment enjoyed by Rugby crowds all over the world.
October 25th 2011 @ 12:27pm
jeremy said | October 25th 2011 @ 12:27pm | Report comment
Jiggles,
Why do you persist in pointing the finger at the NZRFU as if they’re the ones that implemented this ruling?
It’s a stupid rule put in place by the IRB for some unbeknown reason, as I’ve mentioned below it’s probably to do with having cameras to film those oh-so brilliant shots of Weepu with his eyes rolled back.
It’s certainly not in the tradition of the haka for the performers to be separated by 20 metres, otherwise we probably could’ve avoided the land wars and got on with being a sovereign nation.
When NZ teams play one another the restriction’s certainly not in place.
October 25th 2011 @ 1:42pm
Jiggles said | October 25th 2011 @ 1:42pm | Report comment
The IRB were being ridiculous with the fine, but with the welsh situation it was the ABs and the NZRU being precious. In the welsh situation someone should’ve reminded the ABs that doing the haka on foreign soil is a privilege not a right.
October 25th 2011 @ 1:46pm
Jerry said | October 25th 2011 @ 1:46pm | Report comment
Which is what the AB’s said at the time, basically.
They conceded that the Welsh have the right to not allow the haka after the anthems, but that doesn’t mean they have the right to tell the AB’s when to do it. It’s a simple statement – they’ll do it on their terms or not at all.
What’s the problem with that?
October 25th 2011 @ 1:56pm
jameswm said | October 25th 2011 @ 1:56pm | Report comment
So if they weren’t going to do it last Jerry, when would the ABs have preferred to do it? Before the anthems?
October 25th 2011 @ 1:58pm
Jerry said | October 25th 2011 @ 1:58pm | Report comment
What the hell are you talking about?
The AB’s preference is obvious – the status quo. If the Welsh aren’t happy with that, they don’t have to allow it but they don’t get to dictate that the AB’s perform it at any other time.
October 25th 2011 @ 2:11pm
Jiggles said | October 25th 2011 @ 2:11pm | Report comment
That just makes the ABs sound like immature teenagers – “we want to dance after the anthem or not at all.”
October 25th 2011 @ 2:14pm
Jerry said | October 25th 2011 @ 2:14pm | Report comment
It’s not the All Blacks that initiated it, Jiggles.
The Welsh union was basically trying a bit of gamesmanship (they didn’t mind the Fijians performing the Cibi after the anthems the previous week – I wonder why) and the AB’s responded that they weren’t going to back down.
October 25th 2011 @ 2:26pm
Jiggles said | October 25th 2011 @ 2:26pm | Report comment
As the host nation the Welsh had every right to dictate terms, and the ABs were being a tad childish in response.
October 25th 2011 @ 2:34pm
Jerry said | October 25th 2011 @ 2:34pm | Report comment
They have the right to dictate when they’ll permit the AB’s to perform it, but they don’t have the right to compel them to perform it at a certain time. There’s a big difference.
To use a metaphor – if I come to your house for dinner, you get to decide when dinner is served and what the courses will be. But if I don’t want to eat any of the broccoli, you don’t get to insist I eat it.
And again – the Welsh union was trying to indulge in gamesmanship. The AB’s were merely telling them we’re not gonna back down – do you think the French were being childish with their response on the weekend?
October 26th 2011 @ 9:54am
soapit said | October 26th 2011 @ 9:54am | Report comment
i do get to decide what order to serve the courses in though jerry. i think thats a much better anology.
October 25th 2011 @ 12:30pm
Jerry said | October 25th 2011 @ 12:30pm | Report comment
No tradition? It’s been done for nearly 100 years, but even if you account for the fact that it’s only been taken seriously since Buck Shelford got involved, it’s still 25 years or so. Does the RWC have no tradition? Does Manu Samoa have no tradition despite being a serious rugby nation for less time than that? Does the Tri-Nations have no tradition?
October 25th 2011 @ 1:46pm
Jiggles said | October 25th 2011 @ 1:46pm | Report comment
The made up throat slitting haka has no tradition. O’Conner & Cooper doing a fox-trot in reply has more tradition than that choreographed thing.
October 25th 2011 @ 1:49pm
Jerry said | October 25th 2011 @ 1:49pm | Report comment
All hakas are coreographed. Kapa O Pango uses traditional kapa haka actions and words – it’s very similar to the haka my high school was using 20 years ago.
October 25th 2011 @ 2:07pm
Jiggles said | October 25th 2011 @ 2:07pm | Report comment
Oh so have “All Blacks” and “silver fern” been used as lyrics for haka’s for hundreds of years?
October 25th 2011 @ 2:12pm
Jerry said | October 25th 2011 @ 2:12pm | Report comment
Ok, the vast majority of the words and the entirety of the actions. Happy now?
October 25th 2011 @ 2:29pm
Jiggles said | October 25th 2011 @ 2:29pm | Report comment
Yep so let’s stop pretending it’s some great tradition, It’s not. It’s s bit of manufactured pre-game entertainment for the Mums and kids under 6. I think the IRB has to get real and stop this silly protocol stuff, and I think if games are away from NZ then the team should be invited to perform at the discretion of the hosts.
October 25th 2011 @ 2:39pm
Jerry said | October 25th 2011 @ 2:39pm | Report comment
They do perform at the discretion of the hosts, Jiggles.
October 25th 2011 @ 2:50pm
wainuiboy said | October 25th 2011 @ 2:50pm | Report comment
Yes hakas often have had different words specific to the opponent. Best to let the people you intend to fight why you think you are better than them, or describe their failings and deficiencies, or as Kamate was intended to just tell a story.
Check this one from a 1903 tour to Australia
Tena koe, Kangaroo How are you, Kangaroo!
Tupoto koe, Kangaroo! You look out, Kangaroo!
Niu Tireni tenei haere nei New Zealand is invading you
Au Au Aue a! Woe woe woe to you!
There was another one written for the 1925 Invincibles tour that James Joyce appropriated
for a play.
Maybe for the next Bledisloe:
Kia whakangawari au Beiber i a hau
(Hey you with the Justin Bieber haircut – we will mess it up)
I au-e! Hei!
(And you, Cooper)
Ko Niu Tireni e haruru nei!
(why the hell would you play for Australia)
Au, Au, aue hā! Hei!
(what a joke)
Ko Niu Tireni e haruru nei!
(and Dingo how could you?)
Au, Au, aue hā! Hei!
(what a joke)
A ha-ha!
(funny as bro)
Ka tū te Genia ihiihi
(That Genia’s not bad)
Ka tū te wanawana
(we’ll have to sort him out)
Ki Beal runga ki te rangi
(And that Beale)
E tū iho nei, tū iho nei, hī!
(we’ll get him back on the drink)
Au! Au! Au!
(choice choice choice)
October 25th 2011 @ 2:52pm
Mike said | October 25th 2011 @ 2:52pm | Report comment
Pure gold, Wainuiboy!
October 25th 2011 @ 3:21pm
Jiggles said | October 25th 2011 @ 3:21pm | Report comment
Standing too or else cop a fine is hardly a choice, but again my beef isnt with the NZRU on what the haka has become it’s with the IRB.
October 25th 2011 @ 4:04pm
Harry said | October 25th 2011 @ 4:04pm | Report comment
Excellent from Wainuiboy.
October 25th 2011 @ 1:37pm
thurl said | October 25th 2011 @ 1:37pm | Report comment
The agreed match protocol in the Welsh case was that the Haka came after the anthems. The Welsh at the last minute wanted to change things so the Welsh anthem was last. The AllBlacks did not want to change the agreed order of proceedings.
It bwas a bit of Welsh gamesmanship
October 25th 2011 @ 1:45pm
Jerry said | October 25th 2011 @ 1:45pm | Report comment
The Haka had been done before the anthems the previous year, with the AB’s agreeing to it as it was the 100th anniversary of the first AB’s vs Wales match when the Welsh crowd had spontaneously responded to the Haka by singing Land of Our Fathers. But this was only agreed upon on the proviso that it was a one time only deal, not to be repeated.
The Welsh then tried to go back on this agreement (despite having let the Fijians perform the Cibi after the anthems the previous weekend) and the AB’s disagreed.
The AB’s quite rightly responded that, while the Welsh didn’t have to allow the Haka after the anthems, they had no right to insist it be done before. So they said they’d do it in their dressing room and only allowed cameras in after it was requested for the TV audience and people in attendance.
October 26th 2011 @ 3:51pm
amband said | October 26th 2011 @ 3:51pm | Report comment
quote
” The AB’s quite rightly responded that, while the Welsh didn’t have to allow the Haka after the anthems, they had no right to insist it be done before. ”
Home ground rights. We all must respect home town traditions
October 26th 2011 @ 3:58pm
Jerry said | October 26th 2011 @ 3:58pm | Report comment
Firstly, it wasn’t a home town tradition. It was something done once 100 years ago which had been done a different way ever since.
Secondly, bull. They don’t get to order the other teams around.
I propose a new idea – the NZRU will force the opposition to run 40 Hennie Mulllers immediately before kick off. It’s a new tradition.
October 25th 2011 @ 8:25pm
Richard Parry said | October 25th 2011 @ 8:25pm | Report comment
Just to clarify, Wales didn’t move the goalposts at the last minute. There were weeks of negotiations to get the starting protocol to reflect what happened at the 1905 test. The ABs performed the Haka, and the crowd responded with the singing of Mae Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau. The ABs would not agree to this and chose to perform the Haka behind closed doors. No gamesmanship, just asking for an acknowledgement of the history of the match. This was the first time that the Welsh anthem was sung before a sporting event, so obviously had great significance to the Welsh. It’s not only the NZ cultural heritage that should be important within the game.
October 25th 2011 @ 10:00pm
Jerry said | October 25th 2011 @ 10:00pm | Report comment
That was in 2005 and the All Blacks agreed to perform before the anthems.
The dressing room haka was the following year when Wales attempted (and yes, it was an 11th hour request) to repeat the timing despite agreeing to the previous year being a one-off.
October 25th 2011 @ 12:15pm
jeremy said | October 25th 2011 @ 12:15pm | Report comment
As usual, the history depends on who’s telling it.
For the previous year’s centenary, Wales had asked if they could sing Land of Our Fathers after the haka, which the NZRFU said yes to as a once-off. And it was magnificent.
Then the Cardiff test rolled around a year later. When the ABs arrived at the stadium, they were told the order would run NZ anthem > Haka > Welsh Anthem. The ABs said er no, we don’t want to do it that way. WRU said well it’s our stadium, we’ve got the sound system, we’re doing our anthem after your haka, best of luck to you.
So NZ did the haka in the shed, then sung their anthem, then Wales sung their anthem, and away the game went. Pure gamesmanship from both unions with the biggest losers the fans at the stadium. I kinda understand both perspectives; Kiwis can’t be precious about the haka and then deny the opponents the right of reply.
October 25th 2011 @ 1:25pm
beyond the stump said | October 25th 2011 @ 1:25pm | Report comment
i agree, as an aussie i love the spectacle of the haka but surely the abs should not be the only team to enjoy this chance
to pump themselves up. when the welsh sing their anthem it really appears to pump them up as well. unfortunately, i
have never seen the australain anthem pump up the wallabies in quite the same way as the haka or welsh anthem. and
waltzing matilda doesn’t quite cut it either
October 26th 2011 @ 4:06pm
amband said | October 26th 2011 @ 4:06pm | Report comment
We had God save the Queen as the anthem. Ever head the Poms in full flight singing that
We changed a perfectly great rev up anthem
October 25th 2011 @ 1:58pm
Kuruki said | October 25th 2011 @ 1:58pm | Report comment
When have the Kiwi’s ever denied anybody the right of reply?? I hear so much bitching about the Haka yet what is it exactly that you want to do in return?. You want to walk up real close? is that what your all harping on about is that going to showcase your culture to the world?. Half of you dont even know exactly what you are “so called” missing out on? has your union ever even approached the IRB asking to be allowed to do this or that? No NEVER. It is purely a case of “i want what he’s got”.
I hear not one mention of the Fijians Tongans or Samoans getting special treatment. The All Blacks are targets because you cant beat them on the paddock so you need to make up rubbish about them having special treatment to justify your teams lack of skill and talent.
The IRB has made these rules about the Haka not the All Blacks. New Zealand do not care what you do when you receive the Haka, you have the right to reply anyway you wish as far as they are concerned.
The whole idea that it gives the All Blacks an advantage is rubbish, performing a Haka is tiring, it leaves you out of breath, how that is an advantage is beyond me.
October 25th 2011 @ 8:33pm
jeremy said | October 25th 2011 @ 8:33pm | Report comment
Erm….not sure who you’re having a go at, I’m a Kiwi, and a passionate ABs supporter. I absolutely love the haka and think it’s an indelible part of world rugby. But….I also think we as Kiwis get too possessive over it.
My point is that we have ‘right of reply’ for the Fijian, Tongan and Samoans to do their challenges (and vice versa) so…what’s different about singing by the home nation / host? Especially Wales, who are as passionate a rugby nation as New Zealand? Are we the only team in the world that has the right to issue or respond to a challenge?
Personally I think the whole thing can be cleared up pretty easily: haka should be something done only at home (ie in NZ). That would totally remove the bitching and moaning about the unfairness aspect of it, and really bring some heat to the occasion. Those nations toured by the All Blacks should indicate whether they would want to face the haka before the match, thus ensuring it’s opt-in by the home nation. No doubt there’d be the usual gamesmanship as we see popping up from time to time but the onus would be on the home nation to request the challenge rather than having it ‘imposed’ as many see it. I guarantee 100% of all home nations will want to face it.
October 26th 2011 @ 4:11pm
amband said | October 26th 2011 @ 4:11pm | Report comment
good idea. The Haka is not a national anthem, and has no racial, or cultural attachment to white kiwis, including players.
The NZ national anthem is representative of all kiwis and I see no point in the Haka. It does not represent a nation
October 29th 2011 @ 12:18am
Po said | October 29th 2011 @ 12:18am | Report comment
Correction – racially important to maori people native to nz. it has nothing to do with white kiwis, what are you talking about. Thats is why the nz anthem has had the maori version added, because it is important to the country. and does represent the nation. likewise the haka is representative of the nation.
All teams have the right of reply, but that is the playing team, not the stadium, which has been the ruling for many years. Australia used to have a dude come out with a guitar to lead the home ground in a rendition of waltzing matilda, that was banned. sure the crowd can sing, all throughout the game, but of their own accord not orchestrated by the host nations tactical team.
Blah blah blah, the haka is not going anywhere, stay within the guidelines and you will be fine, its a game with a governing body, the rules are the rules.
October 26th 2011 @ 5:55pm
amband said | October 26th 2011 @ 5:55pm | Report comment
the Fijians never push the Haka down our throats. The Haka is not the problem, it’s those pushing it. You get it in pubs, in the crowd at the grounds, usually performed by idiots traditonal Maori would prefer to not be associated with
As for not beating them, Oz beat them twice this year, unless I’m mistaken
You make a valid point about an advantage in my opinion and you speak accurately about the IRB making the rule
October 29th 2011 @ 12:21am
Po said | October 29th 2011 @ 12:21am | Report comment
What are you complaining about an unfair advantage, you just said the aussies beat the abs twice this year, not much of an advantage is it.
October 30th 2011 @ 8:34am
Gaullois said | October 30th 2011 @ 8:34am | Report comment
Kuruki,
Sorry but I’m not sure to understand you. I’m french so…
For me no pb with your HAKA we respect this, war and challenge dance, but I think you must respect also us (French V). Whe you do a V and we walk to ABs we reply to the challenge as warrios that we are. The French are proud and men which not not afraid, even more those of the team of France almost all of the southwest of the France that come or rugby is a style of life, thinking and especially respect. Contrary to what believe many NZ person could not do more honour to the HAKA that are done the French. Think about this.
October 25th 2011 @ 1:10pm
NickF said | October 25th 2011 @ 1:10pm | Report comment
The Welsh got thrashed not because they made the Alkl Blacks angry, but because the All Blacks were simply a better team that day. Worrying about upsetting the Allbalcks at Haka time is ridiculous. New Zealand is the No.1 team at the moment, in fact they have been for as long as I can remember, so you will lose to them more times than win regardless of what happens at Haka time.
Ignore the Haka, challenge it, it doesn’t matter. I loved what the French did, I say let them. The Haka is a great part of the game, but we put far too many rule around it. Let NZ do the Haka the way they want and challenge the way you feel is appropriate.
October 25th 2011 @ 11:11am
Lucan said | October 25th 2011 @ 11:11am | Report comment
As noted, surely a warning would be the smart way for the IRB to have responded.
October 25th 2011 @ 1:27pm
Dopey said | October 25th 2011 @ 1:27pm | Report comment
I think you’ll find Lucan that they were warned. The IRB has said repeatedly that fines only follow official warnings. The same applied for the mouthguard fines they handed out.
I’m with WQ on this one – don’t let hysteria take over:
1) They were not fined for advancing – they were fined for proceeding past the halfway line.
2) The IRB does not stipulate how a team must respond to the Haka (or the Sipi Tau, Siva Tau or the Cibi) only that neither team must not go past a prescribed position on the field.
It’s pretty bloody simle really. Yuu can bet your bottom dollar that the french new what the copnsequences would be and proceeded anyway – and good on them!
Storm in a tea cup
October 25th 2011 @ 11:12am
Davo said | October 25th 2011 @ 11:12am | Report comment
Why is the Haka so special and protected????
How about next cup France decides that they are going to moon the opposition before every game.
Fines are to be handed out by anyone who looks away, walks to close or turns around.
October 25th 2011 @ 12:16pm
jeremy said | October 25th 2011 @ 12:16pm | Report comment
Nothing is wrong with it, Davo, it’s a stupid rule put in place by the IRB presumably to provide space for cameras.
NZers quite like responses to the haka.
October 25th 2011 @ 12:36pm
p.Tah said | October 25th 2011 @ 12:36pm | Report comment
Genuine question, has the NZRU ever weighed into the debate and said it’s OK to respond to the Haka?
I like the way the French responded, but I would have preferred if they had done the CanCan. I would have cracked up and it would have taken the sting out of the Haka.
If NZ were ordinary at rugby, no one would ever bring this up.
October 25th 2011 @ 3:20pm
katzilla said | October 25th 2011 @ 3:20pm | Report comment
Bingo
October 25th 2011 @ 8:35pm
jeremy said | October 25th 2011 @ 8:35pm | Report comment
Yes, Darren Shand came out after the final and said ‘We didn’t have a problem with it, it demonstrated they were there to play’. Which is a glowing endorsement from the oh-so-conservative NZRFU.
October 29th 2011 @ 12:28am
Po said | October 29th 2011 @ 12:28am | Report comment
Apart from making france look stupid, and being fined by IRB, you will also be in breach of the code of conduct and not to mention the broadcasting rules.
The haka is special because it is the haka, come up with something better, and do it – no worries, I like the samoan wardance aswell
October 25th 2011 @ 11:13am
rich1612 said | October 25th 2011 @ 11:13am | Report comment
What a stupid way to underline a great WC final.
IRB really do make some inane decisions.
October 25th 2011 @ 11:17am
Lucan said | October 25th 2011 @ 11:17am | Report comment
While I enjoy the Haka, I’d like to see the opponents taking those 2-3 minutes to continue warming up. Jogging, stretching, doing some ball handling.
Why are they expected to stand there cold, after having already stood through two anthems?
October 25th 2011 @ 11:27am
AJ said | October 25th 2011 @ 11:27am | Report comment
Lucan – on the assumption you’re not trolling for responses……. need I remind you of the Wallabies decision to do precisely that in 1996 in Wellington? Being on the wrong end of a 43-6 flogging sort of put paid to any ideas of not facing the haka from then on.
October 25th 2011 @ 11:57am
Lucan said | October 25th 2011 @ 11:57am | Report comment
Australia faced the Haka last weekend, and were dreadful, and soundly beaten. We didn’t pin that result on how the Australians stared down the dance.
There’s no curse. These are professional sportsman.
October 25th 2011 @ 12:09pm
Sage said | October 25th 2011 @ 12:09pm | Report comment
I’ve heard this so many times. So the logic is if you disrespect the Haka the AB’s will flog you even more than they would have. They will play better. That just doesn’t make sense. They are out there to play to their absolute best anyway. The French are being fined for getting too close while advancing and I didn’t see that disresepct reflected in an AB flogging. They were lucky to squeak in with a 1 point win. It’s just another myth to try and add mystery and power to a moving feast rather than a sacred tradition. The first one performed to the Aussies focussed on Kangaroo’s. Go figure.
How are you, Kangaroo!
You look out, Kangaroo!
New Zealand is invading you !
Woe woe woe to you .
If only we’d realised at the time what they were really warning us about………..
October 25th 2011 @ 12:13pm
Jerry said | October 25th 2011 @ 12:13pm | Report comment
The reality is that whatever you do to the haka there’s a decent chance you’re gonna lose to the AB’s. The French response was a great piece of theatre but meant nothing come kick off.
October 25th 2011 @ 1:54pm
Sage said | October 25th 2011 @ 1:54pm | Report comment
Disagree jerry. I think it meant a lot from the way they performed. That was an outstanding performance from Les Blues you’d have to agree.
October 25th 2011 @ 2:00pm
Jerry said | October 25th 2011 @ 2:00pm | Report comment
And the same thing was said after their response in 07. Except in both cases they were dominated in the first half – if their haka response gave them such a lift, how come they waited an hour or so before they started really getting stuck in?
October 25th 2011 @ 2:07pm
Harry said | October 25th 2011 @ 2:07pm | Report comment
Funny how Kiwi’s who trot out Wellington 96 and Wales never mention David Campese and a few others of warming up around the 22 and completely ignoring the Haka in the RWC semi of 1991. They showed absolutely no respect that day.
October 25th 2011 @ 2:09pm
Jerry said | October 25th 2011 @ 2:09pm | Report comment
Exactly – the Haka and its response are basically irrelevant.
October 25th 2011 @ 2:21pm
Harry said | October 25th 2011 @ 2:21pm | Report comment
I think its great, as I do the Pacific Islander teams doing their dances. Must say I prefer the traditional one, the new one goes on for too long, and not enough funky moves. Weepu wore himself out screaming away for what seems like hours on Sunday.
October 25th 2011 @ 2:26pm
Jerry said | October 25th 2011 @ 2:26pm | Report comment
It’s a nice little bit of spectacle, but people spend far too much time talking and writing about it and the perceived advantage or whatever.
The IRB rule is over the top, but the French were no doubt aware of it and decided to advance past halfway anyway. To put it in economic terms they decided the potential benefit outweighed the cost. And fair enough as the fine is basically a pittance to what is in effect a multi-million dollar company.
I note John Campbell, an NZ TV presenter, has started a collection to pay the fine for the French (as he did when the Samoan winger was fined for his mouthguard). A fine gesture, I’ll admit but not really justified when the beneficiary had their eyes wide open and is well capable of paying the fine.
As I said on another forum – I think a donation to charity in the French Union’s name would be a more appropriate use of any funds collected. Greenpeace would be an appropriate beneficiary…..
October 25th 2011 @ 4:07pm
Harry said | October 25th 2011 @ 4:07pm | Report comment
Yeah the Frog Rugby Union aint short of a buck, get one of those moneybags clubowners to fork out. Very good on Greenpeace Jerry, you Kiwi’s are on fire with the Wainuiboy’s new haka above.
October 26th 2011 @ 4:18pm
amband said | October 26th 2011 @ 4:18pm | Report comment
rubbish! Who do you think you are? It is you who should show more respect. You don’t want respect for the Haka, you want us all to worship it.
Could you imagine the outcry worldwide if anyone else inflicted a heavy defeat based on racial or cultural superiority as you seem to suggest?
Score would have been the same regardless
October 29th 2011 @ 12:36am
Po said | October 29th 2011 @ 12:36am | Report comment
We worship it, and let you do and say whatever you wish, others have their own feelings about it, and it looks like the odds are in our favour. your right, you will get beaten by the all blacks whether they do the haka or not.
The all blacks have the greatest record in world sport as the most winning team. The haka has a bit to do with that, unfortunate you guys havent got anything that works for you.
October 25th 2011 @ 11:51am
WQ said | October 25th 2011 @ 11:51am | Report comment
They are not expected to stand there, they can do what ever they want!
October 25th 2011 @ 12:00pm
Lucan said | October 25th 2011 @ 12:00pm | Report comment
“Expected” is different to being enforced. Yes, they can do whatever they like, but they are expected to stand and face it.
October 25th 2011 @ 1:26pm
WQ said | October 25th 2011 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
No you are wrong, they are not expected to do anything.
They can do what ever they want.
They can choose to stand there, they can go away and stand in a circle, they can warm up, they can take their track suits off, they can go and line up ready to play, they can respond with their own challenge if they want.
All of which have been done before.
This whole argument is actually about the French breaking an IRB rule and them subsequently getting a fine! The same rule that is applied to every Country including the All Blacks.
October 25th 2011 @ 11:44am
Australian Rules said | October 25th 2011 @ 11:44am | Report comment
Absolutely ridiculous by the IRB.
I, like the vast majority of Rugby fans, love the haka and appreciate it as a unique feature of the game. But I do not understand the expectation that other teams (and their fans) should stand there quietly while the ABs are screaming an aggressive challenge at them.
There is some misplaced expectation that we must all bow obseqiously before NZ before the game starts. The Welsh and English got it right when they drowned out the haka with song when it was performed on their home grounds.
Good on France…shame on the IRB!
October 25th 2011 @ 1:26pm
Becci Himes said | October 25th 2011 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
It seems to me that the challenge back should come from the opposing
team, not the fans. Why take the enjoyment away from the rest of the fans who enjoy the haka All Black fans or not.
October 25th 2011 @ 2:43pm
Australian Rules said | October 25th 2011 @ 2:43pm | Report comment
BH, as I said, I love the haka.
But it is a challenge to which all other teams (excluding Pacific nations) have no reply. It’s widely agreed that it gives the ABs some kind of mental edge / advantage just before kick-off. I think when they travel and are on foreign soil, they can cetainly perform the haka..but not to reverent silence by the opposition team and fans.
October 25th 2011 @ 8:40pm
jeremy said | October 25th 2011 @ 8:40pm | Report comment
AR,
I think the haka is *part* of the mental edge / advantage generated by the All Blacks brand….
Listening to the Maori All Blacks coach talk about a very inspired version of Timatanga (here), he said the haka wound the team up a bit too tight and they needed the first 5-10 minutes of the match to steady back down again. Not sure of how much of an advantage this would be.
October 29th 2011 @ 12:43am
Po said | October 29th 2011 @ 12:43am | Report comment
Thats the other teams fault, get a reply simple. like it has been said, you dont have to face it.
But ask any player in world rugby what is one of there greatest moments and they will say facing the haka – why? because as a player you are facing the best, you have prepared all your life for this moment. The players have no complaint, they are warriors who play the game.
October 29th 2011 @ 2:48pm
Mike said | October 29th 2011 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
“But ask any player in world rugby what is one of there greatest moments and they will say facing the haka”
Really, and you have asked how many?
You really are feeding us a lot of jinogistic rubbish, Po!
October 25th 2011 @ 1:30pm
Dopey said | October 25th 2011 @ 1:30pm | Report comment
AR – get the facts. They have not been fined for ‘not respecting the Haka’. As WQ has pointed out repeatedly, they got fined for going beyond the half way line. The French (and any other team) can respond to the haka however they want so long as they don’t walk over the halfway line.
October 25th 2011 @ 2:51pm
Australian Rules said | October 25th 2011 @ 2:51pm | Report comment
I never said they were fined for “not respecting the haka”.
They were fined, as you say, for a technical inadvertence…but my point remains that in the context of a RWC Final Haka, it’s ridiculous. The only reason they were fined is because they stepped over the line DURING the haka.
If one of the French players accidently stepped over the half-way line (with no haka going on) do you think they would still be penalised $15,000?
October 25th 2011 @ 4:36pm
WQ said | October 25th 2011 @ 4:36pm | Report comment
Well Australian Rules you have completely missed the point!
This ridiculous rule was created because of whingeing moaning people like you!
If it were not for people like you moaning about the Haka this rule would not even exist. The IRB responded to every moaning sook that did not like the Haka because it was confrontational, by creating a rule and subsequent fines, to ensure the All Blacks stayed back behind the 10m line to deliver it.
This rule however then must also apply to any other Team that chooses to respond to the Haka by advancing towards it.
Surely even you can understand this?????
October 26th 2011 @ 10:08am
amband said | October 26th 2011 @ 10:08am | Report comment
actually, it’s a cultural add on from a single race and is not part of the game
October 25th 2011 @ 11:45am
BT said | October 25th 2011 @ 11:45am | Report comment
My golly. What a joke hey. I recall in League the Aussies getting right up in the NZ’s face a few years ago. It was great. No one was fined though.