Final thoughts on a superb RWC 2011 tournament
By Spiro Zavos, 26 Oct 2011 Spiro Zavos is a Roar Expert
- Tagged:
- All Blacks, French rugby, Rugby Union, Rugby World Cup, wallabies
141 Have your say
France advance on the All Blacks' haka (EPA/Kim Ludbrook)
Related coverage
- Rugby Union news
- Wallabies news
- Rugby World Cup 2011 news
- New Zealand All Blacks news
- Rugby 2011 news
First things first. The best team in the tournament, and as it happens in world rugby for the last two years, won the 2011 Rugby World Cup tournament.
The All Blacks were the only team in the tournament that was undefeated in all its matches. It would have been a savage blow to the integrity and credibility of the tournament if France had won the final.
France would have been acclaimed as World Champions, despite the fact that in the tournament they lost to New Zealand and Tonga.
This would have made a nonsense of the event.
With the All Blacks winning, just, by the closest margin of any final, the precedent of every tournament winning side in Rugby World Cups since 1987 winning all their matches has been preserved.
And this goes to the heart of the matter about how the teams performed throughout the tournament.
The All Blacks played with their hearts and guts in every match. They scored 37 tries leading up to the final. They had a very tough finals draw, having to play Argentina, a physical side in the quarter-finals, and Australia, a side with huge potential in its back line and (in my view, the second strongest side in the tournament), in the semi-final.
Contrast this with France.
They coasted through their pool rounds, taking hardly any energy out of themselves. They contested against the All Blacks in their pool round for about 12 minutes and then gave the game away, threw it to put it bluntly, to get access to the easier half of the finals draw.
Then they lost to Tonga.
They played a strong opening 40 minutes against a poorly-coached England side in the quarter-final. They almost lost to Wales, who played with 14 men for much of the match.
When it came to the final, France had many more reserves of energy left in the legs of the players than the All Blacks.
France surprised everybody (probably including themselves) by coming so close to victory. But coming close, having a chance to win as they did with two penalty attempts in the second half of the match, is not the same as deserving to win.
The French are concocting a myth that somehow they were cheated out of victory by the referee, Craig Joubert.
Let’s kill this snake right now.
The penalty count was 10 to 7 in favour of the All Blacks. Four of the All Blacks penalties were at the breakdown, two at scrums and one for collapsing a maul.
Seven of the French penalties were at the breakdown, two at scrums and one for offside.
From a diligent watching of the match, it seemed to me that these penalties reflected the outcome of the play.
The All Blacks got most of their penalties in the first half when they were dominant. Many times throughout the match, the New Zealand halfback was clearing the ball with bodies of French defenders lying around him.
Both sides played a very flat defensive wall. And the packs seemed to be evenly matched at scrum time.
The All Blacks made 121 tackles (missing 13) and France made 129 tackles (missing 16). The All Blacks had 13 turnovers and France had 18. The All Blacks won 14 of their 16 lineout throws and France won 15 of their 17 lineouts.
These statistics, which come from the New Zealand Herald, suggest a very even match, with the statistics slightly, ever so slightly, favouring New Zealand, as did the scoreboard.
Throughout the tournament the New Zealand Herald has been running a very informative column by the former Test referee, New Zealander Kelvin Deaker, analysing the performance of the referees. His judgment on Joubert is a judgment that I endorse: “If Sunday night proved one thing, it is that the right man was in charge. Craig Joubert was the referee of the tournament by some distance …”
Deaker went on to note that the breakdown was policed slightly more leniently than in previous matches, with Joubert choosing to use verbal warning on the run rather than the whistle. This “allowed both sides to re-cycle possession … I liked the fact that the game was there for the players to lose or win.”
Between the 71st and 74th minute, France put on 15 phases inside the New Zealand.
It was clear that they were playing for a penalty, the northern hemisphere way possibly, rather than actually trying to score a try or even set up a drop goal situation. It was noticeable, too, that the All Blacks kept diligently to Joubert’s instructions about hands in the ruck and keeping behind the off-side line.
Here was a classic situation where France could have won the match and become World Champions if they had tried to play more positively. They were content, though, to smash up in the hope of forcing a penalty.
This was the moment when their cynical and (let’s face it) rather lazy approach to their matches in the pool round and the semi-final against Wales came back to bite them. They had not extended themselves in their matches.
Now when they needed that little bit extra, they could not find the energy or the inspiration to do it.
Practice makes perfect, the cliche runs. The French had not practised for that moment when everything was on the line, when their lungs were bursting and legs wobbly, to match that final, gut-busting, inspired play that is the mark of champions.
Instead, it was the All Blacks who had played with passion and energy every match of the tournament, who defended as splendidly as they had attacked in previous matches and who forced the mistakes from France when turnovers were gold.
It now seems that France may have succumbed to the disease of trying to eye-gouge their way to a victory in the final minutes of the match.
There is television evidence that suggests a French player might have eye-gouged Richie McCaw. This was the incident when McCaw went down and needed treatment.
Again, this incident, like the tactic of playing for a penalty, goes to the character of the side.
In my view, as splendidly as France played in the final (with the exception of the foul play towards the end of the match), it would have been a travesty of what a World Cup tournament is about if they had snatched the victory.
The win by the All Blacks, which was ‘a close run thing’ (The Duke of Wellington’s summary of the Battle of Waterloo), was a victory for the credibility of the World Cup tournament and, therefore, a good thing for the world of rugby.
Recommend this story.
The Turkey 10
The Turkey 10 teams have now been selected, as Wild Turkey Bourbon's sport sponsorship kicks into the next exciting phase.
Choose which side you're going to support and get in the running to win $2,500!
Simply visit Wild Turkey Australia on Facebook for your chance to win.
Find out more.
- Explore:
- All Blacks, French rugby, Rugby Union, Rugby World Cup, wallabies



October 26th 2011 @ 4:49am
Charging Rhino said | October 26th 2011 @ 4:49am | Report comment
Well done to the All Blacks again. As McCaw said… one the All Black sides had to win it again at some stage. Great effort and it must bring some relief to Kiwi’s.
It should be a really close Tri- Nations next year will the Aussies young side being a year older and more experienced. A changing of the guard for the Boks, but many of their standout performers like Bismark, Lambie, Burger, Frans Steyn etc still around and probably many changes in the All Blacks too with some of the oldies like Thorn, Ali Williams Mealamu, Woodcock, Mils etc presumably moving on.
These 3 teams will be very very close I reckon. With the Argies coming on board too it should be good.
October 26th 2011 @ 5:55am
Ben S said | October 26th 2011 @ 5:55am | Report comment
I believe that Woodcock and Mealamu signed new contracts with the NZRFU prior to the WC, however, Thorn and Muliaiana are definitely leaving.
October 26th 2011 @ 8:10am
Jerry said | October 26th 2011 @ 8:10am | Report comment
Thorn, Mils, Afoa & Donald are the only WC squad members who are definitely heading overseas I think. SBW is unsigned as yet.
Surprisingly low turnover given the age of the squad – you’d think that there’d be quite a few guys who won’t be around in 2015 (Williams, Mealamu, Woodcock, Smith for instance). Carter and McCaw are kind of special cases – Carter will no doubt take a further sabbatical at some point in the next couple of years, but I suspect McCaw may be the rare case of a world class NZ player who plays all his rugby in NZ for his entire career.
October 26th 2011 @ 5:16am
Damo said | October 26th 2011 @ 5:16am | Report comment
Yes Spiro,’the best rugby team won the tournament.
Some may argue about individual decisions in individual games but the best team won the cup.
October 26th 2011 @ 5:51am
Ben S said | October 26th 2011 @ 5:51am | Report comment
I don’t think the French coasted through the WC. They simply played badly in the majority of their games. They have been very poor (by their own standards) over the past 18 months. They then played bravely and resolutely in a final, but they didn’t once look like scoring a try IMHO, and I don’t think that has anything to do with the pool stages. Surely anybody who watched Damien Traille putting up bombs in his own half can’t disagree with that. By and large the French have been a poor imitation of the Springboks during Lievremont’s tenure. Playing on the old cliche that the French are lazy and casual is lazy in itself. Let’s also not forget that Weepu had a day to forget with the boot and the Blacks were reliant on Stephen Donald.
Btw, congratulations to Stephen Donald. It was heartwarming to see him give it such a crack.
October 26th 2011 @ 5:50pm
Mike said | October 26th 2011 @ 5:50pm | Report comment
“but they didn’t once look like scoring a try IMHO”
Errr, they did score a try. Just like the All Blacks did – one try and one goal apiec. And that’s what both teams deserved. Their attack and defence were on par.
“Surely anybody who watched Damien Traille putting up bombs in his own half can’t disagree with that.”
I don’t see how that has any relevance.
“Let’s also not forget that Weepu had a day to forget with the boot and the Blacks were reliant on Stephen Donald.”
Which is saying no more than that both teams had their problems.
You can try to talk down the French performance but it doesn’t change the reality that there was virtually nothing to choose between these teams.
October 26th 2011 @ 7:03pm
Ben S said | October 26th 2011 @ 7:03pm | Report comment
Ah, at it again I see.
Yes, France scored a try. Aside from that single moment I don’t think they looked like they were ever going to breach the NZ defensive line.
I’m sure you don’t see the relevance, Mike. Traille was putting up bombs in his own half because the French were going nowhere and had no real attacking strategy, just like they haven’t for a good period now.
Both teams had their problems?
I’m not trying to talk down the French performance, I am disagreeing with the Zavos assertion that France were not at their best due to their pool stages. To quote yourself – pay attention, it’s not that hard!
October 26th 2011 @ 8:22pm
Mike said | October 26th 2011 @ 8:22pm | Report comment
“Yes, France scored a try. Aside from that single moment I don’t think they looked like they were ever going to breach the NZ defensive line.”
I think they looked like it on several occasions, no more and no less than the All Blacks looked like breaching the French line. Both teams were good in the attack, but even better in defence.
“”Traille was putting up bombs in his own half because the French were going nowhere and had no real attacking strategy, just like they haven’t for a good period now.”
I disagree. Both teams had a good attacking strategy in this match, both implemented it reasonably well (which is a different thing), and both were under pressure at various times in the match due to the other’s skill in attack. Both sides had to resort to kicking to relieve the pressure or in an attempt to seize the initiative, on several occasions. Both teams were fairly good at chasing their kicks, but there were also significant lapses by both.
“I’m not trying to talk down the French performance, I am disagreeing with the Zavos assertion that France were not at their best due to their pool stages.”
I agree with you on that one. I think the French simply produced their best performance in this match and it wasn’t dragged down by any alleged “lazy strategy” in earlier matches. Rather, it was simply the case that New Zealand also produced a bolter of a performance – equally committed and skillful. As it happened, out of several goal attempts, each side only managed to put away one, but the AB goal was a penalty and the Bleus goal was a conversion. C’est la vie.
October 26th 2011 @ 8:26pm
Ben S said | October 26th 2011 @ 8:26pm | Report comment
Please explain to me what the French attacking strategy was.
October 26th 2011 @ 8:45pm
Mike said | October 26th 2011 @ 8:45pm | Report comment
That could mean several things, Ben S, and I have no interest in entering into one of the sterile word games for which you are so renowned.
Tell you what: you explain in your own words what the All Black attacking strategy was, so I understand the level of detail you are looking for. Night
October 26th 2011 @ 9:58pm
Ben S said | October 26th 2011 @ 9:58pm | Report comment
Avoiding the question – totally unexpected. About as useful a contribution as telling Jerry that it takes two men to form a ruck.
Off to bed then. Don’t want to be late for school in the morning, eh.
October 26th 2011 @ 11:01pm
Mike said | October 26th 2011 @ 11:01pm | Report comment
You misunderstand me Ben S – I was referring to you going to bed, not me
You are the one who made the claim that the French had no attacking strategy whereas the All Blacks did. That is an appaerntly absurd claim – unless I have misunderstood what you mean by “attacking strategy”.
Hence my query: Please explain to me what the All Blacks attacking strategy was.
October 27th 2011 @ 3:33am
Ben S said | October 27th 2011 @ 3:33am | Report comment
You’er obviously struggling here, mush.
Did I say the French had no attacking strategy but that the All Blacks did? Can’t actually see where I said that.
October 27th 2011 @ 6:31pm
Mike said | October 27th 2011 @ 6:31pm | Report comment
Okay, so now you’re telling us that neither the French nor ABs had an “attacking strategy”, and since nobody knows what you mean by “attacking strategy”, no-one can ever prove you wrong!
October 28th 2011 @ 1:25am
Ben S said | October 28th 2011 @ 1:25am | Report comment
Great way to back out of misquoting someone. I’m embarrassed for you.
October 26th 2011 @ 6:03am
thurl said | October 26th 2011 @ 6:03am | Report comment
I don’t think you can say that it would be a travesty for the tournament if the French had won. After all the rules say that the team that wins the final is the champion. France did have a chance to win it and doing just enough to get to the final is a legitimate tactic. However, it is the notion that France was unlucky not to win and was the better team on the night that I can’t agree with.
They certainly played their best game of the tournament but they needed to score 9 points to win and they couldn’t. Its as simple as that. They were playing to win , but they came up short by 1 point against an All Black team that in the last 30 minutes were playing not to lose. It was smart rugby by the All Blacks. Something that they had leant from previous defeats. The All Blacks did deserve to win that game. France was not unlucky.
Regarding the ref, there was one other thing that Kelvin Deaker mentioned in the herald article. And that was the fairness of the referee can be judged by the amount of gesturing and complaining by the players. In this game it was absent
October 26th 2011 @ 6:46am
Wayne said | October 26th 2011 @ 6:46am | Report comment
No sorry – any neutral will tell you the ref was shameful.
Watch this
The facts remain that the ref applied two sets of rules one for the french and one for the AB’s. The last decision on this video at 75 mins is quite shocking. Watch it and then comment if you dare.
October 26th 2011 @ 8:07am
thurl said | October 26th 2011 @ 8:07am | Report comment
put up a video of a couple of people who what they were talking about it might be worth commenting.
October 26th 2011 @ 8:18am
DanSA said | October 26th 2011 @ 8:18am | Report comment
Valid analysis, such a pity that the final again included such decisions. Just creates too much out of the match crap. I hope the IRB can do something, anything to address this, but won’t hold my breath …
October 26th 2011 @ 8:32am
jeremy said | October 26th 2011 @ 8:32am | Report comment
What an absolute load of codswollop from a commentator who is as one-eyed as you can possibly get. ‘Neutral’? Are you kidding? The accent, funnily enough, is Australian. Who did the All Blacks beat in the semi final, and who was refereeing? Much of a vested interest there?
This is typical idiotic revisionist drivel from a sore loser whose interpretation of the game is different from Joubert, Joubert being the internationally-recognised referee who, erm, referees matches.
Could it be that the Australian commentators are so out of touch with international rugby (as evidenced by the ongoing quasi-jingoistic drivel spewing from the mouths of ex-Wallabies who have no contact with the current game who act as self-appointed arbiters of all that they perceive ‘wrong’ in international rugby, namely that they’re not at the top of the pile) that they have got to the point that all they do is take potshots at the IRB for finals they didn’t play in?
Specific points:
“Look at Richie McCaw, off his feet, still playing the ball” – the moment he says ‘Still’ McCaw is actually holding a French player who’s trying to throw him out of the ruck. He’s nowhere near the ball.
‘Boom, that’s a high tackle’ – Woodcock, who’s shorter than the French player, goes for his shoulder, the French player ducks into and under the arm which slips up over his head, and continues play. No foul. Quade Cooper is frequently guilty of this exact move as his tackling technique is abysmal.
“Look at Richie McCaw, and they’re playing the ball on the ground’ McCaw is on his back clearly attempting to get his left arm free because there’s a French player rucking his left shoulder. No mention of it.
‘Kaino – off his feet’ – Kaino was supporting his weight when he got his hands on the ball (yeah, strange that the footage starts at that exact point rather than showing the reverse angle from when he’s contesting the ball) then as soon as it’s in his hands he falls forward. When he looks up and purportedly ‘passes it forward’ Joubert has ALREADY got his hand up for the turnover (and has his hand out) which is why Kaino looks up.
It’s clear that this Australian, like many (Kearns, Martin, Gowden), does not understand that there is a variance in the style of refereeing and that Joubert referees in a different style to them.
What amuses me the most about articles like this is that there was absolutely no Australian dissection of NZ’s 2007 quarter final exit where Wayne Barnes played the opposite game, heavily favouring the French and gifting the French their passage into the semifinals. It’s only when the neighbour next door gets some success and ‘gold and green’ becomes ‘green with envy’ that we get these pathetic ‘exposes’.
Meanwhile, Rocky’s choking of Conrad Smith in the semi-finals – where’s the commentary on that? Aw shucks, Sentata must’ve deleted it.
October 26th 2011 @ 11:34am
Justin said | October 26th 2011 @ 11:34am | Report comment
So you dont think there are any valid points there at all? Staggering…
October 26th 2011 @ 3:50pm
jeremy said | October 26th 2011 @ 3:50pm | Report comment
If he does have valid points, they’re lost in the tide of ‘shameful’ and ‘I hate to bring this up BUT’…
Did this clown put the same level of analysis into the Springboks vs Wallabies semifinal? Or the Wales vs Australia third place final? Or the 2007 Rugby World Cup final? What about NIgel Owen’s performances? Or Wayne Barnes?
He has the cheek to close it all off with ‘Now you can’t hold the All Blacks responsible for this’ after spending five straight minutes bitching about Richie McCaw. Had it been a video of David Pocock do you think he’d have commented? Because Pocock was given even greater latitude in the Lawrence-refereed quarter than the All Blacks were purportedly given in the final. It’s simply hypocritical.
October 26th 2011 @ 10:30pm
Wal the Hooker said | October 26th 2011 @ 10:30pm | Report comment
Touche Jeremy! Unbelievable sore losers, if its one of theirs there’s no problem…. What a prick rips into McCaw and then has the gawl to say you can’t blame the AB’s eh. What a bunch of pathetic has beens! Give credit to the players of both teams who gave us such an amazing final! Heroes, villains in both teams who never said die… That’s what we should be talking about. Sentanta what muppets!
I take my hat off to Tim Horan on Fox after the match who said Joubert was fantastic and let the game flow, and who was in awe of McCaw, saying was there 2 on the park as he tackled and played himself to a standstill. Same props came from Brendan Cameron! To lose DC, Slade, Cruden and play the tough QF against Argentina and then a bruising semi against AUS, no road could be harder to cup glory! Those boys played with nothing left but GUTS! You whingers give it up. Did France deserve to win? NO, because one team wanted it more despite all they endured.
November 2nd 2011 @ 9:24am
Mike said | November 2nd 2011 @ 9:24am | Report comment
I don’t agree with your last part, Wal.
France played brusing matches in the lead-up also, and they were also carrying injuries.
France played with just as much guts and to suggest that they wanted the win any less than NZ is to look at it 100% from a kiwi perspective.
I think either team deserved to win this one because neither held anything back – the skill commitment and the blood were all there. It was an 8-7 score line, which some who didn’t see it might say must have been a boring game, but the reality was different – totally absorbing contest.
October 26th 2011 @ 1:56pm
David said | October 26th 2011 @ 1:56pm | Report comment
Jeremy is correct.
The Setanta commentators focus mainly on the Jerome Kaino incident where there were apparently ’4 clear penalties’
whereas the were actually none.
Kaino was on his feet until he lost the ball forward (from the way they said it it sounded like this was one of the infringements although not sure how long a accidental knock on has been a penalty offence?!) After he lost the ball forward the ball was now out of the ruck and therefore fair game to player coming from behind the ruck (which is what happened) As the All Blacks now looked like getting the ball there was no advantage so France scrum – which again is exactly what happened.
Since they obviously don’t seem to know the rules properly there’s not much point taking any notice of this video.
October 26th 2011 @ 3:47pm
AC said | October 26th 2011 @ 3:47pm | Report comment
Isn’t Kaino the tackle assist? Ruck was formed. No hands on the ball allowed. Penalty.
October 26th 2011 @ 3:54pm
Jerry said | October 26th 2011 @ 3:54pm | Report comment
Kaino being there doesn’t form a ruck, the ruck is only formed when the second French player arrives. If Joubert has ruled that Kaino has his hands on the ball and is on his feet at that point, he’s allowed to to continute to play the ball until he goes off his feet (at which point he does release the ball).
It’s questionable as to whether he’s on his feet (he may be supporting his weight by having his knee on a downed player) and it’s impossible to tell if he’s playing the ball before the French support player arrives, but it’s not inconceivable that Joubert ruled he was allowed to play the ball initially.
October 26th 2011 @ 6:14pm
Mike said | October 26th 2011 @ 6:14pm | Report comment
Jerry, only two players are required to form a ruck. If they are on their feet and bound on, the ruck is formed.
October 26th 2011 @ 6:24pm
Jerry said | October 26th 2011 @ 6:24pm | Report comment
I’m aware of that Mike – when I said “second French player” above, I was meaning the tackled player was the first.
It specifically requires a player from each side, so until that French support player gets there it’s not a ruck. AC seemed to be suggesting Kaino arriving made it a ruck, which is simply not correct if there’s no French players on their feet.
Now admittedly, the ruck is formed pretty quickly as the French support player is only a step behind Kaino in arriving, but if Joubert has decided Kaino got his hands on the ball in that split second (and is on his feet) then he doesn’t have to release (until he then goes to ground as I mentioned above).
October 26th 2011 @ 10:44pm
Colin N said | October 26th 2011 @ 10:44pm | Report comment
The issue isn’t whether he was on his feet, it’s the fact that he was the tackle assist and therefore has to release the tackled player before competing for the ball.
The video didn’t actually pick out the worst and most obvious offences. Twice McCaw (once alongside someone else) made a tackle and put himself on the wrong which completed negated France getting the ball back. One time, Joubert gave a scrum and the other, New Zealand turned it over.
October 26th 2011 @ 10:48pm
Jerry said | October 26th 2011 @ 10:48pm | Report comment
Colin, while I agree that’s the preferred way of reffing the tackle, the fact is it hasn’t been reffed like that at all this RWC. In fact, over the course of this season the tackle has largely reverted to 2009 tackle interpretations – which I personally think is a shame, but it’s hardly a new development in the final.
November 2nd 2011 @ 9:27am
Mike said | November 2nd 2011 @ 9:27am | Report comment
“NZ’s 2007 quarter final exit where Wayne Barnes played the opposite game, heavily favouring the French and gifting the French their passage into the semifinals.”
You are kidding yourself. If the ABs had been on top of their game then, this canard might have some credibility. The ABs might have got through that QF if the bounce of the ball had gone their way, but the fact is that they didn’t “deserve” a win.
Barnes is as good a referee as any, and his reffing in that match was not particularly bad. its just that ABs needed to do more to secure the win, but they didn’t, and the dice went against them.
November 2nd 2011 @ 9:46am
Jerry said | November 2nd 2011 @ 9:46am | Report comment
It’s a valid point though, in the context of the level of criticism Joubert has garnered for his performance compared to how Barnes’ performance was viewed outside of NZ.
Using words like ‘deserve’ or ‘gifting’ is obviously fairly inflammatory and misguided, but I think any neutral observer would agree that Barnes performance disadvantaged the AB’s more than Joubert’s disadvantaged the French, yet the reactions from the international rugby community was markedly different.
October 26th 2011 @ 8:42am
katzilla said | October 26th 2011 @ 8:42am | Report comment
Wow the guy even claims that O’Brien is biased towards NZ, and picked the ref accordingly.
Im sorry but he was picked because he was the best referee throughout the other stages.
Anything the guy says just get lost when he starts implying bias.
Haters gonna hate.
October 26th 2011 @ 11:14am
Touko said | October 26th 2011 @ 11:14am | Report comment
Great video there. Very interesting, especially that Jerome Kaino non-call which was absolutely astonishing.
And yes, I think you’re right – there were two sets of rules, applied by the ref. But for me it was just a slightly extreme example of what usually happens to the away team, compounded obviously by Joubert’s fear he wouldn’t get out of NZ alive if he penalized NZ.
In those squeaky arse moments every ref is likely to freeze up or stuff it up and unfortunately the French weren’t quite good enough to (over)compensate that day.
Overall I think it’s also true to say that Joubert had a pretty good match and an excellent tournament. The French had plenty of opportunities to go out and actually win the match and they couldn’t. Joubert is not to blame for that.
October 26th 2011 @ 11:34am
Danny said | October 26th 2011 @ 11:34am | Report comment
Typical garbage. Pick one convenient moment of an 80 min game. How about throwing up the full first 20 mins when the French were offside in the mid field 80% of the time.
And ffs dont listen to that fool Kearns in the Fox commentary box. He’s been calling the 2011 tournament to be a fiasco since it was awarded to NZ in 2005. He’s redefined what it means to be one-eyed. Of course the ABs are off-side in his eyes he doesn’t look at anyone else.
Joubert did a fine job of keeping the whistle out of his mouth for both sides. The French were reduced to having to earn it fair and square, and failed.
ABs now own them – 4 wins from 6 games in RWC, including two cups. Bogey team, bunkum.
January 7th 2012 @ 11:40am
kai said | January 7th 2012 @ 11:40am | Report comment
This is all opinion and interpretation in the end. Not to mention redundant:0)
Personally feel that NZ got the all important benefit of the doubt, and being a referee I certainly know what that means. 2-3 penalties against france were clearly wrong (ex 1st penalty of game where tackler is still holding tackled player after penalty is called.) One clear NZ hands in ruck to prevent scrum half from clearing ball, then france called for hands (second infringement.)
also, NZ clearly came in with tactic of kicking high and then interfering with catcher. Got away with 2-3 clear and obvious infringements in this regard with change of possession as a result. Joubert did look at AR for one of them, so I guess they both missed it.
TO me it was subtle, but the penalty count could have easy be reversed.
October 26th 2011 @ 7:07am
Shaun said | October 26th 2011 @ 7:07am | Report comment
This is a short collation of 2 incidents during the All Blacks Semi Final
Spiro: The last comments we had, you suggested that the Aus team were not thugs – What have you to say about these ….
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/forum/threads/9607-RWC-2011-SF2-Australia-vs.-New-Zealand?p=305675&viewfull=1#post305675
The first, pictures and a video of Rocky Elsom choking Conrad Smith on the ground.
Conrad Smith later came out to say, it was nothing, it was rugby.
The Second, a compacted gif, shows Stephen Moore going in elbow first on Cory Jane.
Ironically, James Slipper saved Jane from a potentially nasty injury by yanking at his body.
Both incidents were not picked up, and not cited post match.
October 26th 2011 @ 8:01am
kiwidave said | October 26th 2011 @ 8:01am | Report comment
Missed those myself, Moore looked like he did actually cop jJne on the top of the head to me, but that one could look worse than it was.
Rocky one was a bit uncalled for.
October 26th 2011 @ 8:27am
Jerry said | October 26th 2011 @ 8:27am | Report comment
Rocky’s just cranky that Conrad Smith is better than him at breakdown turnovers.
October 26th 2011 @ 8:09am
jeremy said | October 26th 2011 @ 8:09am | Report comment
No, Shaun, you’ve got it all wrong! Elsom’s gently massaging Smith’s neck to try and remove some residual tension. Moore saw a mosquito carrying the Ross River virus on the back of Jane’s head and was trying to remove it with some haste.
October 26th 2011 @ 12:51pm
kiwidave said | October 26th 2011 @ 12:51pm | Report comment
Of course, like the time Richard Loe saved Paul Carozza from that spider.
November 2nd 2011 @ 9:29am
Mike said | November 2nd 2011 @ 9:29am | Report comment
Moore of course is very aware of the vulnerability of heads to mosquitos, as his own carries no natural protection…
October 26th 2011 @ 8:02am
kiwidave said | October 26th 2011 @ 8:02am | Report comment
I think the final, in a way, was a reversal of the 2007 quarter final.
One team were behind on the scoreboard, battering away at the line without much imagination and waiting for a penalty which never came. Then in the dying moments possession changed and the other team were able to claim the victory.
The AB’s out tackled les bleus in 2011 as les bleus out tackled the AB’s in 2007. In both cases a little invention may have won the game for the losers but it was not to be.
October 26th 2011 @ 8:24am
DanSA said | October 26th 2011 @ 8:24am | Report comment
how true is that, especially given DC was injured and Donald kicking that kick … really sad that the RWC seems to be riddled with bad refereeing though, at least the ABs where consistently the best team over the last 4 years
November 2nd 2011 @ 9:32am
Mike said | November 2nd 2011 @ 9:32am | Report comment
Fair point.
Its a hard call – do you employ that “little invention” or do you keep the pressure on in the hope that the defenders will crack. Sometimes the latter tactic works, very successfully.
Whatever, it was a cracker of a game.
October 26th 2011 @ 8:17am
Spiro Zavos said | October 26th 2011 @ 8:17am | Report comment
Wayne
Matt Williams was one of the least successful coaches in Super Rugby and internarional rugby there is. His analysis continually reflects this. The video was terribly selective. There were numerous instances of French violations of the ruck that the video did not pick up. For northern hemisphere commentators to complain about biased refereeing against a northern hemisphere is the height of hypocrisy.
The fact is this RWC final was well-refereed. The referee did not influence the outcome of the match, as say Wayne Barnes did in the RWC quarter-final between France and NZ.
New Zealand got penalties in the first half of RWC 2011 when they were dominant. France got penalties in the second half when they were dominant.
The Read/Parra incidents were not similar. Read stepping offside and withdrawing meant that he was taken out of the play and had no part in it. But Parra went offside and then made the crucial tackle knocking an All Blacks making his way to the tryline into touch.
Why didn’t Williams make this obvious point?
Because he either didn’t understand it (which is entirely possible given his coaching record) or he did see it and understand it but preferred to keep to script about the injustice to France.
One more point, this program which we see on Australian TV from time to time is so biased towards Irish teams that it is almost unwatchable. In this instance, the bias has shifted towards a bias towards a northern hemisphere team.
Commentators with this agenda need to ask themselves why is it that the southern hemisphere teams have won six of the seven RWC tournaments so far.
It can’t always be referees favouring them. Perhaps, just perhaps, the southern hemisphere teams in general play better winning rugby than the northern hemisphere teams.
My point about France in RWC 2011 is that they were cynical throughout the tournament, This goes to the character of the team. In the end they did not have the character to turn their dominance into a win against a side that was very tired, had suffered many injuries to key players, including Piri Weepu in the warm-up.
There was no comment from Williams about the French infringements of stomping, throwing players into the wrong side of the ruck, the dives and the eye-gouging (which happened on several occasions and not just on the incident picked up at the end of the match).
Kelvin Deaker, as I pointed out, gave a good report on Joubert, which was the correct judgement.
The point is that he allowed a contest for the ball. He talked to the players to release if they were off their feet. If they did play continued.
Both teams had plenty of ball to put pressure on opponents. France did not win the game, not because of the referee, but because they did not kick two crucial penalties towards the end of the match (if the referee was biased why did he give these penalties?) and because they could not get themselves into a position to drop kick a goal, or score a try.
One final point: the French try was against the run of play coming as it did after a surging All Blacks attack. France offended at the ruck and then had a player in an off-side position to put pressure on Weepu (a Roar blogger has posted the video of this).
Williams did not go into this.
It didn’t fit his biased thesis, presumably.
October 26th 2011 @ 8:38am
Wayne said | October 26th 2011 @ 8:38am | Report comment
Spiro
Nice response although you fail to include a response to the ruck at 75 minutes when even if you allow the player to play the ball while lying on the ground!! the ball went forward and was collected by an off side AB. What about the ruck immediately afterwards at 76.01 when McCaw comes around the side of the ruck before diving on the floor.
While I completely agree that France did not deserve to get through to the final and that New Zealand did nothing wrong in playing to the ref – the ref was poor.
In reality no other side would have taken the risks the ABs did in those last few minutes because in any other game in any other place they would have been penalised for those two incidents alone.
Look we can all agree that the ABs deserved to win the RWC as they were clearly the best team – they did not deserve to win that game. Home advantage is one thing – this was a bit more than that.
October 26th 2011 @ 8:45am
Jerry said | October 26th 2011 @ 8:45am | Report comment
“In reality no other side would have taken the risks the ABs did in those last few minutes because in any other game in any other place they would have been penalised for those two incidents alone.”
So how do you explain Cardiff in 2007? Cause that was the same situation for twice as long with even less reward for the (significantly more) dominant side.
October 26th 2011 @ 8:53am
Wayne said | October 26th 2011 @ 8:53am | Report comment
But two wrongs do not make a right. In saying what you did you are effectively agreeing that the ABs should have been penalised. I am not saying saying the ref set out to give the game to NZ. I like most thought he was the best choice in the circumstances before the game.
I began the game supporting the ABs I finished it supporting the French – because of the ref.
October 26th 2011 @ 9:00am
Jerry said | October 26th 2011 @ 9:00am | Report comment
I’m not actually saying that two wrongs make a right, but I am saying that many of the people complaining now were probably not quite so vocal 4 years ago (and vice versa).
There are some mistakes by Joubert in that video, but without a proper examination of the French play it’s not actually evidence of inconsistency. The reality is that he did give France two kickable penalties in the second half, either of which could have won them the match.
Also, the free for all (or at least a more lenient stance at the tackle & ruck) at the breakdown does seem to be a recurring them in the knockout stages, and the tournament as a whole so it’s not as if it happened in a vacuum. Joubert has said that he was instructed not to make 50/50 calls and only to penalise the things that really stood out. The All Blacks simply adjusted to this better.
October 26th 2011 @ 9:08am
DanSA said | October 26th 2011 @ 9:08am | Report comment
I guess it is what qualifies as 50/50 calls … the Kaino one was not exactly 50/50 and seemingly a few others where not either, on both side …
I think he was afraid to that he might blow the whistle too much and I think it’s very though for a referee to do a final, especially that one, given the ABs, in NZ, after 20 odd years, Eden Park, against the French … loads of emotions, nerves and passion there
I don’t mind referees making mistakes, as long as there is some idea what happened and how it can be addressed, whether by skills improvement, simpler/clearer rules, etc.
It just seemed to me that in this RWC too much of the media attention’s was spent on the referees, not the games. In 2007 there was essentially one key game where that happened, in 2011 there where 4-5? That cannot be a good thing
October 26th 2011 @ 9:10am
Wayne said | October 26th 2011 @ 9:10am | Report comment
I guess that’s my point – the two incidents at 75 and 76 mins really did stand out to the extent when watching them live they made no sense – watching them canned just make them look worse.
Hey I cannot resent the ABs the Cup – they have been the best team around for so long – the generally play a brand of rugby that others simply aspire to.
October 26th 2011 @ 11:33am
Paul_From_Melbourne said | October 26th 2011 @ 11:33am | Report comment
Wayne,
I dont know if you have reviewed the footage independently or you are just watching Matt Williams clips. When I review the videos around the 75th min mark. Jerome Kaino was definitely on his feet when he picked up the ball. This part is conveniently cut off in Matt Williams videos, Kaino then got tackled and lost his footing and spilled the ball forward. and the ref gave a knocked on. In the 76th min, McCaw got there just before a ruck was called and was entitled to tackled the player with the ball. Of course he calculated his timing perfectly so that when ref called ruck, he would already be there and not considered offside as long as his hands were not touching the ball. This is also the same moment he was eye gouged by Rougerie. The correct decision would have been sending Rougerie with a red card and award a penalty to the AB.
Matt Williams appears to curve fitting footages to his pre-formed views. Wasn’t he the one who says it was alright swap the ball for a penalty kick?
October 26th 2011 @ 11:52pm
Wayne said | October 26th 2011 @ 11:52pm | Report comment
Interestingly even If I agree with you the ref does not give a scrum for the ‘knock on’ he gives it at the ensuing ruck. He does also tell kaino to release the ball which must mean he considers him to be part of the ruck so that must mean the moment he spills the ball forward it has to be a penalty particulalrly as another AB then collects the ball.
October 26th 2011 @ 12:49pm
jokerman said | October 26th 2011 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
Wayne, I have to say it, you are a poor loser. The ref was fine, the best in the world. You see it one way, and then commit to that positon, against any truth.
Mcaw got eye gauged at the end. If that was seen, the french player would have been sent off (You don’t see that?) Had the French player had done that off the field, he would spend time in prison (Still cant see that?)
Spiro’s article here was brilliant , informed and positive, despite his team, Australia, not winning the cup, your spin Wayne is just clumsy, one eyed, negative and who needs that?
October 26th 2011 @ 11:11pm
Wayne said | October 26th 2011 @ 11:11pm | Report comment
Again you miss the point – I started the game supporting the ABs and finished the game supporting the French because of the ref. Yes I have looked at the video separately from the YouTube clip and yes I have played rugby and refed rugby. As I have said all along the ABs are a great side and were the best in the RWC and it was not their fault these mistakes were made, that does not make it fair.
I have also looked at the gouging and there was no way any ref would see that during the game that’s what post match reports are about – and if proven should result in a very lengthly ban.
October 26th 2011 @ 8:40am
DanSA said | October 26th 2011 @ 8:40am | Report comment
I cannot comment on the fairness of the assessment, however I wonder about your and some other peoples reasoning for Joubert being so leanient at the breakdown.
I can understand the entertainment value, however it becomes contentious for everyone involved. Everyone agrees that the ABs are by far the most deserving winners and the French (bar England) probably the least of the quarter finalists.
Joubert where the best available referee probably thus far, given the semis, however (and this might just be my imagination) if the lack of enforcing was equally applied, then why was the semi between Aus and the ABs also a great game, even when Joubert seemingly reffed that game strickter at the breakdown.
One final point … I thought the new rugby laws where put into place to improve that chances for scoring tries by the attacking team. So if these are not enforced at the breakdown in the most important game every 4 years then why have them at all?
The refereeing might have been equally lenient on both sides, however I don’t buy into the entertainment value aspect of it all, otherwise the whole changing of the rugby laws after 2009 seems like a complete waste of time for me.
October 26th 2011 @ 8:53am
Winston said | October 26th 2011 @ 8:53am | Report comment
Amen spiro
October 26th 2011 @ 9:14am
Ben S said | October 26th 2011 @ 9:14am | Report comment
Aside from rugby, I find it hard to take an adult seriously who can’t paragraph.
‘and the eye-gouging (which happened on several occasions and not just on the incident picked up at the end of the match).’
Any proof or just ignorant speculation?
Terrible ‘analysis’.
October 26th 2011 @ 10:10am
Pablo said | October 26th 2011 @ 10:10am | Report comment
Ben S – I didn’t realise “paragraph” was a verb? Stones and glass houses spring to mind.
October 26th 2011 @ 6:46pm
Winston said | October 26th 2011 @ 6:46pm | Report comment
Snap
October 26th 2011 @ 7:07pm
Ben S said | October 26th 2011 @ 7:07pm | Report comment
You didn’t realise that ‘paragraph’ (not “paragraph”, btw) could be used as a verb, Pablo? Oh.
Further, I’m not paid to write, so keep the stoopid stones in your pockets.
October 26th 2011 @ 7:45pm
AussieKiwi said | October 26th 2011 @ 7:45pm | Report comment
Actually “paragraph” is correct for UK and Aus, although in other countries it may be different.
Regards
AK, AKA the grammar nazi.
October 26th 2011 @ 11:31pm
Mike said | October 26th 2011 @ 11:31pm | Report comment
Much as I hate to admit it, I am inclined to agree with the real question Ben S asked: what is the proof for the eye gouging?
And now I have seen that video, I would like to know why it isn’t being reported?
October 26th 2011 @ 10:00am
Tigranes said | October 26th 2011 @ 10:00am | Report comment
Spiro what are your grounds for the eye gouging claims?
Has the NZRU made a complaint, or have All Blacks come out an complained?
Or is it based on the article written by Keith Quinn?
October 26th 2011 @ 11:33am
Capital said | October 26th 2011 @ 11:33am | Report comment
Tigranes
There is a video on http://youtu.be/-FQkwYfqDnU clearly shows Rougerie gouging McCaw.
The ABs did not wish to take it further, nor did McCaw …
October 26th 2011 @ 11:48am
jeremy said | October 26th 2011 @ 11:48am | Report comment
Has the NZRU made a complaint, or have All Blacks come out an complained?
Nope, they remained quiet like ‘good winners’ apparently should (isn’t that what we’re told, NZ are poor winners?)
But make up your own mind, the footage is right here:
October 26th 2011 @ 11:23pm
Mike said | October 26th 2011 @ 11:23pm | Report comment
If its a reasonably clear case of eye gouging then it should be reported.
Unfortunately, mayn teams make a habit of not reporting foul play because they know that they are vulnerable to reporting too.
But there is foul play and foul play. Gouging is dangerous in a way that many other things aren’t. It should be reported.
October 26th 2011 @ 1:48pm
Timmo said | October 26th 2011 @ 1:48pm | Report comment
Brilliant analysis, Spiro. You are looking at the French performance in the entire game and during the entire tournament. Unfortunately some of your criticisers don’t, can’t or won’t understand that – they prefer to single out isolated incidents rather than making a judgment based on overall attitude and performance. Well done.
October 26th 2011 @ 8:19am
jamesb said | October 26th 2011 @ 8:19am | Report comment
i don’t think it was a great world cup as far as on the field is concerned
you look at the teams. The All blacks won but were nervous, Australia, France and England struggled for majority of the time. South Africa struggle to put teams away, eg: Australia.
so whilst the All Blacks won, i don’t think their main challengers fired too many shots in this world cup at all.
While Ireland and Wales, had their moments, I always felt that both sides would be short on talent and experience to win a world cup.
its a pity that a minnow country didn’t have a major imact in this tournament, eg Samoa
I also feel as though that this world cup didn’t win new fans. In the important matches, there was only 1 or 2 tries been scored, penalty kicks decided most games. Is that style of play going to bring new fans to rugby. I don’t think so
rugby as a sport is crying out for somebody to revolutionize it, similar to the 1974 FIFA world cup with johan cruyff and the Netherlands “total football”
Whilst the crowds and goodwill made the world cup a success off the field, IMO on the field the rugby world cup was a failure.
October 26th 2011 @ 8:28am
katzilla said | October 26th 2011 @ 8:28am | Report comment
What do you call the way the All Blacks play if not ‘Total Football’ one of the best running teams in the game and also one of the best rucking/mauling teams in the game.
Different teams in this world cup were beaten with different strategies, including France twice with two different game plans.
October 26th 2011 @ 9:03am
jamesb said | October 26th 2011 @ 9:03am | Report comment
your speaking as an all black fan. I’m speaking as a person trying to get into the sport. I’m one of those borderline type fans. The problem with rugby is this. Not only is there too many penalties, but many people wouldn’t know what the penalties are for.
people just look at the direction of the arm raised from the referee to see which side gets the penalty. Apart from that fans or “new fans wouldn’t have a clue why so many penalties are given in rugby matches along with its undestanding.
So Katzilla, take off your all black glasses, and come up with ideas on how to improve rugby so that it would convince me and many people as new fans to the game.
Still stand by my prevoius post, there needs to be a revolution in the game of rugby.
October 26th 2011 @ 9:15am
katzilla said | October 26th 2011 @ 9:15am | Report comment
My post was as a rugby fan.
You claim that rugby needs a revolution in the way Netherlands bought total football to soccer, yet you obviously don’t know enough to know the styles of rugby played by different countries.
How can the All Blacks affect the way penalties are given and their explanation? What does this have to do with Total Football? Or am i missing something? Was the Netherlands style of Football so complete that the rules of the game were changed because of them?
October 26th 2011 @ 3:22pm
Jeb said | October 26th 2011 @ 3:22pm | Report comment
“come up with ideas on how to improve rugby so that it would convince me and many people as new fans to the game”…
Um… take two players from either team off the field. Get rid of stupid restarts. Less points for penalty goals. Get rid of the stupid meaningless mess that is “the breakdown”. Perhaps just get the tackled player to um how about play the ball??
Which other sport talks about referees in the terms rugby does? There’s something seriously, seriously wrong when someone talks about the referee of the tournament, interpretation etc. The youtube vid someone posted may have been selective with the points it made but that just reinforces the fact that almost every decision in rugby is selective by its very nature.
October 26th 2011 @ 3:40pm
Dhani said | October 26th 2011 @ 3:40pm | Report comment
Presumably your idea would also involve lowering the average IQ of players and spectators by 30 points?
October 26th 2011 @ 8:25am
katzilla said | October 26th 2011 @ 8:25am | Report comment
‘There is television evidence that suggests a French player might have eye-gouged Richie McCaw. This was the incident when McCaw went down and needed treatment.’
There is no suggestion Spiro, Rougerie has been outed as the culprit.
http://youtu.be/-FQkwYfqDnU
October 26th 2011 @ 8:48am
AussieKiwi said | October 26th 2011 @ 8:48am | Report comment
Ouch. Now I understand why RItchie didn’t have much to say about the French post match.
November 2nd 2011 @ 9:36am
Mike said | November 2nd 2011 @ 9:36am | Report comment
That doesn’t cut it.
There are many players in the French team that played fairly. Their lock Lionel Nallet for example is well-known for never stopping to dirty play. Thierry Dusatoir plays it hard, but fair.
The correct action would have been to refer to the French during the final speech, and report Rougerie for dangerous play. As it is, McCaw and Henry were wrong on both counts.
October 26th 2011 @ 8:57am
DanSA said | October 26th 2011 @ 8:57am | Report comment
They should have at least reported him for a review. If he, or any player, does stuff like that then they should not play rugby (including any SA player). Stupid crap