Training the Wallabies in forward play
Roar Guru By stillmissit, 31 Oct 2011 stillmissit is a Roar Guru
- Tagged:
- Rugby Union, Rugby World Cup, wallabies
Like many on The Roar I have been frustrated by poor forward play by the Wallabies that was on show at the World Cup and has been there since Rod McQueen’s time over 10 years ago.
There has been several forwards coaches and scrum coaches and they have helped but they have not turned the Wallabies into the equal of the best in the world.
As the IRB’s number two ranked nation at the moment, we cannot expect to either hold this position or move to number one without this critical element of rugby union.
I would like to propose that the Wallaby forwards train against local Sydney and Brisbane forward packs in the key areas that we are poor in, scrummaging, ruck and counter ruck. (Apologies to ACT, Melbourne, Perth but if they have a team that is strong enough then use them as well.)
I was reminded of this by a couple of instances, one where a grade prop claimed he had worked over all the Wallaby props except one who he had not played against at a recent get together where talk turned to a Gordon scrum that pasted the Wallabies in the 70′s and it got me thinking.
I assume that there is a lot of opposed scrummaging and rucking within the squad but against a forward pack that have played together, possibly for years, the game is very different.
If the grade players show more tenacity and skill at scrum and the breakdown than the current Wallabies, that would send a strong and direct message to every Wallaby forward. If the Wallabies get over the grade players then it can be a great training session that can only improve rugby in Australia
It would be a matter of a couple of phone calls to find out who were the strong scrum teams in Sydney and Brisbane and who were the best at the breakdown. The Wallabies would then be facing players who were either not good enough to make a super squad or were never picked. It could well show up some Wallaby weaknesses and improve their technique. It may unearth a couple of talented players which would be great. It will also bring different teams against the Wallabies and that in itself is a good thing.
What I am suggesting is a different level of training to apply to the Wallabies where players, who are two levels and a financial light year away from the elite could put them under pressure, which will hurt deeply and might be the very thing to get them off their arses and into the scrums and breakdowns.
The knowledge that there are players who have mostly not come through the academies, being paid peanuts, could take their spot might be just what the Wallabies and grade players need to take the game up a level.
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- Explore:
- Rugby Union, Rugby World Cup, wallabies
October 31st 2011 @ 4:26pm
ThelmaWrites said | October 31st 2011 @ 4:26pm | Report comment
Great suggestion, StillMissIt. Every effort should be used to improve the Wallaby scrum.
Re: academies. Who organizes them? Who funds them? How do they recruit their cadets? Have they been effective? They are one big mystery to me.
October 31st 2011 @ 5:40pm
stillmissit said | October 31st 2011 @ 5:40pm | Report comment
The tragedy is that it is the same for all of us. Who decides that youngsters at 18 can be picked as future stars of the game? Sure there are some that are VERY obvious ie O’Connor but there are many will fall by the wayside and others who are slow developers and slow to become ambitious, who is testing for these guys. We need talent from wherever it comes from. My experience is that I have seen many players with bags of talent who don’t have the attitude or interest to make it to the top. How do you pick that I wonder?
October 31st 2011 @ 9:00pm
Touko said | October 31st 2011 @ 9:00pm | Report comment
I agree. Top suggestion, and well worth a try. I imagine the Syd/Bris packs would definitely be up for it and it gives practice managing different scrummaging techniques, tactics.
What have we got to lose?!
November 2nd 2011 @ 8:51am
The Lad said | November 2nd 2011 @ 8:51am | Report comment
Lets not forget not too many in union or league could see O,connors potential until he was spotted by Mitchell at the Force.May be its the selectors who need to be chosen better so the skills of the unknowns can be unleashed.
November 3rd 2011 @ 8:48am
stillmissit said | November 3rd 2011 @ 8:48am | Report comment
The Lad – I don’t have much faith in our selectors and I didn’t realise that Mitchell ‘found’ O’Connor. I think they only look through the academy as that limits their area of search and potential for failure. I would be looking through all the young league players, colts in grade and schools for talent. I personally don’t subscribe to the idea that there are few players with talent in Australia.
If the word got around that talent scouts were out looking at youngsters might try harder to impress. Bob Dwyer was the last good talent spotter we had maybe we should have kept Mitchell for this role.
November 3rd 2011 @ 8:43pm
jeznez said | November 3rd 2011 @ 8:43pm | Report comment
I’ve got a mate who is a talent scout/trainer for an Australian Super Rugby Academy. His job is to go around and look at youngsters, assess them, invite them to join the academy if they are suitable and then physically train them to get their bodies up to super rugby level. I do not believe he does any actual rugby coaching just physical training.
His selection criteria when picking kids is not neccessarily to get the best rugby player in the team but instead looking for the kid who has the right body – looking for size, skill, athleticism, fitness, pace and above all durability. Beyond all the biometric tests he does on the kids he has a whole lot of questions for the parents on family history and a set of tests he puts them through trying to find guys who genetically have an edge.
I believe this is fairly standard in how most juniors are scouted with the belief that if they have the attributes they can be taught to play rugby later.
May give a little insight into why the Wallabies are so poor at rugby basics….
October 31st 2011 @ 4:53pm
jeznez said | October 31st 2011 @ 4:53pm | Report comment
Fully agree, everything that can be done should be done to improve Australia’s (not just the Wallabies but the entire nation’s) forward play.
The number of times I’ve watched Wallaby forwards track backwards to the last feet at a ruck and then come in with zero power this year had me ready to throw things at the tellie. Vickerman is one of the very few who understands that when going back you need to head to a spot five metres behind the line so that you can turn and charge into the breakdown with some momentum. This is why front foot ball is so valuable since it allows you to charge into the breakdown however it seems this simple lesson that I had drummed into me in the U-12′s is not understood by the majority of the Wallaby forwards.
I love the idea of letting club blokes have a crack at the Wallaby squad – there are few things as fun in rugby training as opposed sessions against grades that are higher than you. Agree you would need to find the best club sides in each aspect and just train in that area against the Wallabies so that the gulf in class was not too big.
October 31st 2011 @ 5:45pm
stillmissit said | October 31st 2011 @ 5:45pm | Report comment
Jeznez – I agree about Vickerman but he was trained in South Africa where they know a decent forward and appreciate their abilities.
I have watched our scrum from this aerial view and it is screamingly obvious that it is too loose. It splits in the front row and then fall apart as the binds don’t hold. I have been complaining for years about front row just wandering up and running a grip round the hooker and as they go into the scrum you can see daylight between them. The laws of physics seems to have bypassed these guys.
The breakdown is a nightmare of avoided conflict on the alter of “DON’T OVER COMMIT” which translates into don’t commit at all.
October 31st 2011 @ 7:54pm
Pillock said | October 31st 2011 @ 7:54pm | Report comment
At the moment the Super 15 and wallabies play very little club rugby it refIlects poorly on the administration. There is often calls for another level of competition in Australian Rugby however the idea of rep players going around at club games would have a great trickle up effect, rasing the standard of club footy and giving the fringe club players more visibility Like Jeznez says playing against higher rated players has a great uplift factor for the grade rugby players.
I think a lot of the problem is that the Wallabies get contracts from the ARU and QRU (or equivalent state body) so they can pretty much dictate when and where the players get to play and it looks like club level runs a very distant third. It would be good to see them pushing players to play at club level whenever possible.
October 31st 2011 @ 8:30pm
ThelmaWrites said | October 31st 2011 @ 8:30pm | Report comment
Another mystery to me, StillMissIt, is the dive pass. If the forwards are going backwards, why don’t halfbacks use the dive pass more?
I know the rule of thumb is that the dive pass takes out the halfback from the play. But it’s a trade-off, isn’t it. If quick ball to the backs is critical, surely you can sacrifice the half-back. The only halfback I’ve seen in the RWC who used the dive-pass consistently was Yashvili.
November 1st 2011 @ 9:22am
stillmissit said | November 1st 2011 @ 9:22am | Report comment
Thelma don’t know enough about the advantages of the dive pass – please enlighten me. I have been an big advocate of quick passes in one movement ie no George Gregan steps first. I dislike this standing at the back of the breakdown directing traffic whilst the AB’s counter ruck us.
November 2nd 2011 @ 2:48am
ThelmaWrites said | November 2nd 2011 @ 2:48am | Report comment
Sorry for the late reply, SMI. I had to confirm with my daughter that the scrum-half for Gordon in the 1992 Shute Shield Grand Final was Anthony Eckert. He was the first scrum-half who I noticed did a lot of dive-passes. Next in my memory was Sam Payne for the Waratahs. I don’t think Gregan had it in his repertoire.
I thought that the smaller scrum-halfs would be the more likely to dive-pass, not being big enough to join the back-line or defend.
But then Luke Burgess is a hefty fellow, and yes, he did a lot of dive-passes in his first year as the Wallaby scrum-half (against France in Sydney in 2008 was one occasion, if I remember rightly). Then he abandoned it. Coach’s instructions? Because he was more productive sniping?
The worrying thing about Genia is that at the RWC, he has began to take up to two steps before passing, a la Gregan and Burgess.
But when Burgess came in for Genia (can’t remember, it think it was against Italy), he was swivelling and passing the ball crisply. He’s one-two-three steps was gone, along with the harbour- bridge passes.
Beats me!!
Maybe a spell in purgatory (the bench) is a wonderful cure for bad technique; it hones the desire to excel.
October 31st 2011 @ 9:16pm
Blinky Bill of Bellingen said | October 31st 2011 @ 9:16pm | Report comment
I’m for anything that will improve our forwards. That includes best coach, training, opportunities and of course selections.
Also I think Australian Rugby needs to shift it’s focus off the backs and more onto the forwards to make them appreciated by players & public alike. Kind of like a ‘for…ward play is sexy’, if you catch my drift.
Just a question though on your Brisbane & Sydney packs. Are you suggesting the Wallabies take on Sydney Uni, Manly…that sort of thing…or are you thinking more about forming the best packs in Brisbane & the best packs in Sydney from the various clubs in that area?
November 1st 2011 @ 7:27am
stillmissit said | November 1st 2011 @ 7:27am | Report comment
Hi Blinky good to hear from you again. Hope all is well in Bellingen.
Yes I am suggesting that they play against the likes of Manly and Uni forwards (don’t know who is strong in Brisbane). I bet the Manly forwards would give them a good go. As Touko says above ‘what have we got to lose’? It is upside all around from my POV.
Rugby to a lesser extent, is about the stories that get generated during a playing career and an old forward telling his kids about the time he scrummed against the Wallabies makes for a good one.
November 1st 2011 @ 9:10am
Blinky Bill of Bellingen said | November 1st 2011 @ 9:10am | Report comment
All’s good in Bello thanks.
Fair enough on your club scrum idea. At least that way there would be no ‘selection’ nightmares between club coaches.
October 31st 2011 @ 11:18pm
mickh said | October 31st 2011 @ 11:18pm | Report comment
This concept might help the grade players improve their scrums on a Saturday afternoon but will do nothing to help out the national squad.
Training against lesser, much lesser squads in this case, would be counter productive and in all seriousness the club packs would get smashed.
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November 1st 2011 @ 7:30am
stillmissit said | November 1st 2011 @ 7:30am | Report comment
Mickh – I would be willing to put a small bet on that??? I have been in a good scrum who got worked over by a Japanese touring team that we considered at the time to be midgets (opps! sorry – humans who are height challenged).
November 2nd 2011 @ 8:43am
Mike said | November 2nd 2011 @ 8:43am | Report comment
Mickh, who says they are ‘lesser’?
That’s the real question, isn’t it? If they are indeed ‘lesser’, then I would agree with you.
But I have a feeling that this Wallaby pack would be disagreeably surprised by their performance against the Manly or Uni pack, in the aspects cited by SMI.
SMI has honed in on a really important point – how the forwards hunt AS A PACK is more important than the sum of individual talent in the pack. I don’t know whether he has the right answer or not, but it does get to the root of one of our major problems.
I think any fair observer would agree that the current standard of our forward pack in these areas is well below that of ABs, Bokke, England or France. That doesn’t mean that they don’t outplay those packs from time to time, but its pretty rare.
November 1st 2011 @ 2:05am
nobody said | November 1st 2011 @ 2:05am | Report comment
i know a guy who could train there forward pack and turn it into a monster withing 2months and thats my Dad, he has the old school training techniques and toughness to deal with the pampered rugby players nowadays, he’s pinpoints all the wrong things in the Wallabies scrum and forward every test they play and im surprised that he could see it but not the Wallabies coaches, its not about the weight but the technique and committment, they only player could survive his 2mnth long training would be Pocock and trust me i have been there and done it, should the ARU take this offer they wont regret it.
November 1st 2011 @ 7:34am
stillmissit said | November 1st 2011 @ 7:34am | Report comment
Nobody – The Wallabies ignored Topo’s (one of the greatest props ever for the Wallabies – ex Argentina) offers for help about 8 years ago when they were in deep poo. Your dad could almost certainly improve things but would the players accept that intense level of training???
November 3rd 2011 @ 2:18am
nobody said | November 3rd 2011 @ 2:18am | Report comment
i hope so, my Dad received his Level2 Coaching badge from the NZRFU in 1986 but other career choices distracted him from his passion of coaching, his 50yrs old and still playing vets rugby at our local club……….the Wallabies can have the best coaches in world rugby but if the players wont change there attitude than theres nothing they can do.
November 3rd 2011 @ 8:55am
stillmissit said | November 3rd 2011 @ 8:55am | Report comment
Sounds like the ideal guy to be involved in grade rugby. At least he would have an idea about forward play, most of our coaches haven’t got a clue.
November 1st 2011 @ 4:16am
Damo said | November 1st 2011 @ 4:16am | Report comment
Blinky your suggestion is dangerously close to the Tight Five Comp that has been suggested by someone on the Roar for about a year now.
An off-season (or post season when S15 are playing their finals) comp on a narrowed field with only scrums, mauls, rucks and lineouts to gain territory with and score pushover tries.
It would be designed around the areas of weakness in Australian scrummaging and as a televised event would give some short-term fame to unknown piggies.
And instead of guessing who are the best tight fives in the country we would all have a better idea – as would the players themselves. The coaches would be allowed on the field (like the under10′s) and would change tactics between plays.
Such a comp
May even draw out some non rugby athletes, eg wrestlers or shot-putters, who may be good enough to compete in a scrum.
At the very least the whole process would give the known S15 level and club players a boost to their top level experience.
Recent commentary regarding our lack of developed backrowers suggests that 6 to 8 may need to be involved too
November 1st 2011 @ 7:41am
stillmissit said | November 1st 2011 @ 7:41am | Report comment
Damo – I have never heard of this great idea.
I think we are so vulnerable in the forwards that we should be doing several things to improve their skills, particularly at the breakdown. Unfortunately the cry of “Don’t over commit” that started about 10 years ago has destroyed our breakdown skills.
I note that the AB’s have smart ideas about what to commit to and what not to commit to, we just don’t commit the required numbers to win much and certainly we rarely counter ruck.
Without Pocock and George Smith before him we would get zero turnover ball. Our weakness at the breakdown has been hidden by two fantastic openside breakaways – we have been VERY BLOODY LUCKY!
November 5th 2011 @ 6:14am
Damo said | November 5th 2011 @ 6:14am | Report comment
I am surprised that you have not seen this idea. The genius whose idea it is mentions it on every ‘wallaby forwards are the problem’ thread he reads.
You are the first to respond to the suggestion at all. Have not yet had a response at all let alone a positive one.
The logic is this.
Australia have a point of weakness – forward dominance in scrum, breakdown, maul, ruck, counter ruck
Australian fans (like myself years ago) often don’t even know the names of our forwards
The way to strengthen a chronic weakness is not with band aids and guesses.
The way to do it is with massive action, with a decision and an investment that reduces the chance of failure.
Tight five play needs to be
Prioritised
Populated (with as many suitable body types in the country as possible)
Promoted (with media exposure)
Televised (glamourised AMAP)
We have to make this part of rugby which is ironically the part that is non league, non afl and non soccer :
-Visible
- Intelligible to an audience
- Desirable to participants and fans.
A televised comp similar to ‘OZ greatest athlete’ or ‘gladiators’where any kid or club tight five in the country can take on the S15 and wallaby stars could discover and develop a lot of talent.
And create a point of difference with other codes, whilst making piggies sexy.
Okay maybe that’s pushing it but this ‘forward’ problem could be helped with a bit of ‘old traveling wrestling tent’ exposure.
November 1st 2011 @ 8:48am
Blinky Bill of Bellingen said | November 1st 2011 @ 8:48am | Report comment
Strewth SM you’ve got me salivating with the ideas coming from your proposal. And I know close to zero about forward play (even less after watching the RWC).
Wouldn’t it all be a shame though to see the old stumbling block of the Refs interpretation of Crouch, Touch, Paaaaaws………….N’gauge come along and bugger this whole thing up!
For mine the sooner they get rid of CTPE, the better. There must be better ideas getting around.
November 1st 2011 @ 9:17am
stillmissit said | November 1st 2011 @ 9:17am | Report comment
Blinky – To change the C-T-PPPPPPP…….E rubbish is simple go back to the contest for the ball with both packs deciding when to engage, as long as it is not early, and have the ref watching the important bits. Did the ball go in straight – do the props have heads above horizontal – did they bind properly – did the defending prop pull the scrum down – is the half back onside – are the breakaways still bound etc.
To think that this rubbish is making the scrum safer does not seem to shown up at senior level where props are popped and collapse regularly.