What did we learn from RWC2011?
By Brett McKay, 1 Nov 2011 Brett McKay is a Roar Expert
- Tagged:
- Rugby Union, Rugby World Cup, RWC, Webb Ellis trophy
123 Have your say
I thought I was done: the Webb Ellis trophy had been deservedly handed over to our neighbours to the east, and the reviews and post-mortems were running themselves out.
Many good points were made on all number of topics, interspersed with some solid ranting and hand-wringing.
It was, surely, time for me to take a few weeks out to come down off this brilliant rugby fest and prepare to switch from the Gilbert to the Kookaburra. Another busy summer of cricket lies on the horizon.
Then the great Roarer popped up.
I learned in my early days on The Roar that ‘Sheek’ was an opinion worth reading. His knowledge and thoughts on rugby in Australia, particularly the history of it, are well known, and indeed, rarely wrong.
I can’t recall too many times where I’ve disagreed with his thoughts, and on the rare occasion I have, it wouldn’t have been a major detail.
So when he laid down a gauntlet for me last week, I felt it was worth delaying the break another week.
I won’t replicate his post completely, but I will address his points as listed.
“..who will or how to win the next world cup…”
The ‘who’ is going to be guesswork for the next 3½ years, maybe longer, so I’ll knock it out of the way quickly: New Zealand will start favourites. If any bookies have them listed at longer than 5-1 at the moment to go back-to-back, then I want a piece of it.
Wales will be up there. England can’t be discounted on account of playing at home, and Ireland and South Africa will probably both be on the up after rebuilding stages of varying degrees. Obviously, I’d hope Australia are in the mix too, and France will be as well, for the simple reason that they’re … well, French.
Argentina can’t be ruled out from the ‘bolters’ column, to which I’d add the emerging giant Samoa. Depending on to what degree rugby explodes domestically in the next four years, the USA might just be on the verge of a knockout berth too.
The ‘how’ is marginally less speculative. As was the case in 2007, and again in 2011, I suspect it will again be a case of running games that have worked in the years preceding will essentially be ignored during the tournament, as teams rein in their openness and muscle-up in the tight stuff.
Why? Well, because that’s what works in tournament rugby, particularly once we get into the knockout stages. New Zealand topped the try-scoring in this year’s tournament, but played little expansive rugby in their Semi and Final. They didn’t have to, with their pack dominating all comers.
Though Wales are showing signs of width, the Six Nations teams already play forwards-based rugby, so it might not even be a conscious decision for them. That’s not a criticism, either, it makes perfect sense.
France also showed us the value of doing whatever is required to get through the pool stage, and once in the knockout stage, just tough it out for as long as you can. It might have been ugly at times, but it was one point short of lifting the Webb Ellis trophy.
“Stuart Barnes suggested in an article recently that we retain 20 teams, but split them into two distinct divisions – a ‘top 8′ cup comp, & a ‘bottom 12′ plate comp. At least that was my understanding of his article.”
My understanding of Barnes’ suggestion is the same as Sheek’s, and evidently this was put forward as a proposal as part of England’s losing bid for RWC2007.
I’m on the record as having no interest in seeing the lower-ranked teams playing in a separate Plate tournament, particularly one played at a different time to the main Cup.
However, Barnes’ suggestion might have some merit, given the two are played in conjunction. Complaints about turnaround times would disappear under this idea, with the “leading nations [playing on] the weekend while midweek would host the 12 qualifying smaller nations in their own competitive league.”
Promotion and relegation games in between tournaments could well add to the battles, as teams strive for the top, and others look to avoid the drop. It could work, but I’d want to see more detail. It’s certainly worth exploring further.
“..how effectively can we accelerate the development of so-called 2nd tier nations? My early gut feeling is we must do more for the minnows in-between each world cup. Much more. Quality competition is the key.”
This I agree with completely. I understand that the Six and Four/Quad Nations are the big ticket items in their respective hemispheres and shouldn’t be rushing to add more teams.
In my mind, however, the opportunity for more Tests between the ‘tiers’ is the June and November windows.
Is there really any reason why New Zealand couldn’t play say, the USA, en route to Europe in November, or why Wales couldn’t play Japan on the way home in June? It doesn’t have to be two- or three-test series (though they’d be great), one-off matches would be just as effective.
The point in all this is the IRB has the funds to make this happen. They should be doing whatever is required to blur the line between the ‘tiers’. I’d even argue that the question is not whether they can afford to, but rather whether they can afford not to.
The IRB Nations Cup should probably be expanded. Maybe the States and Canada should be added to the Pacific Nations Cup. Maybe Australian and New Zealand Under-23 teams, too (South African and Argentinean ‘A’ teams play in the Nations Cup, as a precedent).
From a purely selfish perspective, imagine how much better prepared for Test rugby young Australian players would be after a season or two being belted by Samoans and Tongans.
“And is the world cup suffocating the life out of international rugby in the “in-between” years, just as the nay-sayers said it would back in pre-1987?”
Almost certainly. Don’t know what to do about that, though.
Cricket’s World Cup doesn’t quite cause the same issue in their game, as Test Matches still ‘outrank’ the 50 over format by which the World Cup is decided. FIFA’s World Cup renders all internationals other than World Cup qualifiers as ‘friendlies’, placing playing for your country somewhere near a charity or festival match.
Rugby is somewhat isolated in having meaningful Test matches played outside it’s four year cycle, but undoubtedly still placing all emphasis on the quadrennial event. All planning, budgeting and even contracting is now geared this way.
It’s probably not healthy, as is now obvious, but I don’t think I’d ever want to see the day where a Bledisloe decider is resigned to mere ‘friendly’ status.
No doubt, the IRB could do more to spread its RWC riches, but this four-year spotlight might be one by-product we need to get used to.
Happy off-season, Ruggers.
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November 1st 2011 @ 6:10am
kiwiidave said | November 1st 2011 @ 6:10am | Report comment
“we retain 20 teams, but split them into two distinct divisions – a ‘top 8′ cup comp, & a ‘bottom 12′ plate comp.”
Not such a fan of this one. I think the middling teams need more gametime against the top teams, not less. For a lot of these teams the world cup is the only time they get a crack at the big boys. If the last WC were along these lines France would probably Have never met Tonga. If the 2007 WC was along the same lines Fiji and Argentina would probably not have been included in that top 8 group, yet were quarter and semi finalist respectively.
I think any structure which involves picking the best eight teams before the tournament starts is fundamentally flawed.
November 1st 2011 @ 8:21am
stillmissit said | November 1st 2011 @ 8:21am | Report comment
Totally agree Dave – It is just reinforces the us and them syndrome that ensures that the other nations don’t move up. I think the 2011 comp shows that the so called minnows are growing into small sharks and maybe next WC???????
November 1st 2011 @ 8:23am
Brett McKay said | November 1st 2011 @ 8:23am | Report comment
K-Dave, I’m still not a fan of the split comps either, but this idea at least has them running concurrently, and that’s the basis for me wanting more info before I completely write it off. That said, your point about 2007 is spot on, and I do agree.
And I agree completely on your last point too, it’s a very good one well made.
I think the more these alternate ideas and sturctures come up, the more we realise that the four-pool five-team model does work quite well, presuming the scheduling is done a little more fairly.
November 1st 2011 @ 3:23pm
Kuruki said | November 1st 2011 @ 3:23pm | Report comment
I would like to see it stay the way it is, except i would be giving the 4 day turnarounds to the top nations. Let the All Blacks play France then back it up 4 days later against Japan. If it’s is a better closer competition that we want then this is what should happen. We rotate our players so much that it would probably be a welcome ease of selection pressure for the coaches.
This will never happen because the IRB only care about money and scheduling the big name teams to play in the best time slots. You cant have the best of both Worlds, so we will either continue to see money dominate the game or someone will put the brand before the dollar sign and make things right.
November 1st 2011 @ 7:02pm
JohnB said | November 1st 2011 @ 7:02pm | Report comment
Could there not be a split after the preliminary stage? I know it would make the competition longer (and be more expensive to run) but 4 groups of 6, which then split into 3 knockout comps (cup, bowl, plate) of 8 teams would work. And if you have an even number of teams in a group, all members of the group can play on the one day, cutting out the unfairness claims. If 5 preliminary games are too many, make it 6 groups of 4 (although you then want to make absolutely sure you don’t drop a game in your group!) with the top team from each and the 2 next best going into the Cup and so forth. You would still ensure all teams in the one group played on the same day.
November 1st 2011 @ 6:15am
Moaman said | November 1st 2011 @ 6:15am | Report comment
Morning Brett……Refreshing to read an article that doesn’t irritate before interest!
” And is the world cup suffocating the life out of international rugby in the “in-between” years, just as the nay-sayers said it would back in pre-1987?” ” I am a proponent of doing away with/downgrading the prestige of these WCs and returning to tour-based fixtures…I know I am probably pissing into the wind but there you go. Some kind of Global Competition is the real way to integrate the Tier Two Teams….not throwing them a cast-off bone from the high-table whenever the whim takes us.Cash-strapped NZ is hardly breaking down the doors to go to Apia and play in front of a meagre crowd (albeit a passionate and enthusiastic one) when they can invite Manu Samoa to Albany/Eden Park and near fill those venues….
Arms must be twisted or incentives must be provided.A global comp that has home/away games for all of the Top 20..played over two years even,with other teams below the 20 striving to break in through qualifying and promotion-relegation might work.The Final(s) could be a 3-match series as well.The Winner of that would be TRUE champions of the world.
November 1st 2011 @ 8:30am
Brett McKay said | November 1st 2011 @ 8:30am | Report comment
G’day Moa, and a good morning to all…
I don’t know that you’re fully pissing into the wind regarding wanting the WC prestige downgraded, and you probably won’t even be on your own. Personally, I acknowledge that the RWC model does skew the emphasis every four years, but I’d much rather rugby has it than doesn’t.
But I like you idea of the global competition, and running it in between RWCs makes a lot of sense. Also, on your point of inviting Samoa to play anywhere in NZ, rather than going to Apia, I don’t have too much problem with that, but perhaps gate-sharing arrangements might neeb to be looked at. The main point is Samoa play the All Blacks somewhere…
November 1st 2011 @ 11:18am
soapit said | November 1st 2011 @ 11:18am | Report comment
i think i have a good solution to improving the fringe nations abilities and take the emphasis off the world cup and i’ve copied it from another post below
“i think the four yearly cycle is the main problem. to fix it i’d have a 10 nations championship played every 4 years (2 years after each cup) where every team plays once (9 games each total). i’d split it into two halves with the northern teams coming south in june for the first half and then south go north in november with the trophy being awarded to whoever won the most games.
i worked it out once and it would only involve a handful of extra games than is played now in non world cup years but would add some meaning to those internationals and break the 4 year cycle. would also be a different style of rugby played to the knockout world cup.
NH would get on board as they’d tend to have the deciding rounds played there each time. SH would get on board as you’d get more likely full strength squads sent. i would think TV would be worth more as well if the games had some long term context.”
qualification should be through the rankings so a win for tonga over samoa would mean a lot to them as it helps them access this additional (potentially lucrative) tournament.
November 1st 2011 @ 11:40am
soapit said | November 1st 2011 @ 11:40am | Report comment
oh and you would use designated games in the 6 and 4 nations comps to go towards the comp, no point in replaying those matches.
November 1st 2011 @ 5:08pm
onor said | November 1st 2011 @ 5:08pm | Report comment
I like the idea. I’d call it “The world series” I’d Host it in Europe.
I’d have the top ten nations playing in the first division.
and the next ranked 10 nations playing in the second division.
Teams play eachother once in there division.
I’d make it a 10 week competition.
The final week of competition would be two final matches.
The winner of the second division gets to challenge the loser
of the first division in a chance to be relegated in the next
world series. I think the loser of the first division has the
right to defend their position, and I also think the winner of the
second division must prove they are first division contenders
for the next world series.
The winner of the first division gets to challenge for BILL.
For eg. The allblacks hold the world cup.! If say ITALy finish top
of the first division and the allblacks finish 2nd 3rd 4th or 10th for that
matter.. The winner of the first divison being Italy, become the
world champions and what it entitles them to is, the right to challenge the allblacks
for the cup.
If after nine weeks pass and the allblacks finish in number 1 spot.
There is no final, they finish.. back to back world champs!
Id host the tournament in Europe.. they could cope. Big stadiums. ETC
wouldnt it be awesome though.. being able to challenge for the cup.
we see how in between world cup years how strong the irish welsh teams
are… Imagine a team like Ireland being able to challenge for the cup!!
im not sure on the timing though? I mean every second year for sure..
but which months?
November 2nd 2011 @ 11:21am
soapit said | November 2nd 2011 @ 11:21am | Report comment
they can cope but i think the major obstacle would be finding a time to schedule it (as you said). the southern unions already suffer as a result of the world cup so doing another tournament which causes them to lose home games every 4 years wouldnt be possible. using existing tournament matches would mean youd roughly get a 5 week window in oct/november (which is already dedicated to rugby anyway) europe hosted the deciding (last) rounds which would still be great as a mini tournament and the southern unions getting the early matches means they still get good revenue.
not sure about actually challenging for the cup (pretty sure nz will want it for all 4 years) but a match between the two teams would be simple enough to organise. bearing in mind they will have already played during the series there might not be a huge point tho.
November 1st 2011 @ 8:17am
Mike said | November 1st 2011 @ 8:17am | Report comment
“Is the world cup suffocating the life out of international rugby in the “in-between” years, just as the nay-sayers said it would back in pre-1987?” Almost certainly. Don’t know what to do about that, though.
One solution is to tie bonus points and/or grading etc in the World Cup TO the in-between year performances – so that EVERY test match is meanginful so then there would be no more so-called B-Teams on show. So that the teams who do best over the four years in-between have REWARD for their performances. Right now you can be awful over 4 years and still have a chance at winning what is a one-off knock out event. Thats not really right.. Better to get reward for being good all the time as well as in the WC. Definitely grade the World Cup draw on IRB rankings not what happened 4 years ago in the WC.
November 1st 2011 @ 8:34am
Brett McKay said | November 1st 2011 @ 8:34am | Report comment
Mike, both good points there. We need to rid the game of these B-team tours (injuries aside, obviously), and certainly, basing the draw on IRB rankings makes more sense than 4 year old RWC performances…
November 1st 2011 @ 8:39am
ohtani's jacket said | November 1st 2011 @ 8:39am | Report comment
The IRB rankings are arguably the most meaningless rankings in world sport. The fact that France are now 3rd and Wales 8th should attest to that. The biggest reason international rugby is being suffocated in the years between World Cups is because the ARU and NZFU have increased the number of test matches to 14-15 each year to generate revenue. Another reason is that losses are excused away as “building towards the World Cup” by players, coaches and administrators alike. The more matches there are the less important it becomes that you win them.
November 1st 2011 @ 9:14am
Brett McKay said | November 1st 2011 @ 9:14am | Report comment
all good points OJ, can’t argue with any of them. The increased number of Tests for financial gain is obviously a double-edged sword though…
November 1st 2011 @ 7:37pm
sheek said | November 1st 2011 @ 7:37pm | Report comment
Ditto – I hate the fact that the Wallas & ABs are playing 14-15 tests per year. Totally devalues the concept of a “test”.
Much prefer the de Beers Diamonds concept of “artificial scarcity”.
That’s what made tests so special in the old days – they were few & far between.
I would cap them at max of 10 per year in non-RWC years, & a max of 13 in RWC years, assuming your team made the final. In other words, in a RWC year, you go to the world cup with only 6 tests max behind you.
November 1st 2011 @ 7:40pm
Shahsan said | November 1st 2011 @ 7:40pm | Report comment
It’s Catch-22, isnt it? In the old days you didnt need to pay players so they could play fewer tests. Now you have to pay for everyone, meaning more tests need to be played, which in turn devalues them.
November 1st 2011 @ 8:18pm
AndyS said | November 1st 2011 @ 8:18pm | Report comment
The problem with artificial scarcity is that, like diamonds, it means only the wealthy can afford the best. So to make the same money, it will be all off to Twickenham for the Bledisloe matches then…
November 1st 2011 @ 10:41am
Mike said | November 1st 2011 @ 10:41am | Report comment
OJ I agree somewhat – the IRB rankings would be near perfect if they did not award double points for WC matches – thats not logical. That said don’t forget that WC matches and performances are one-off and its the 4 years and 99% of all other games that actually make up the IRB rankings. What I like about the IRB rankings is that its an honest and logical result of games played..(WC double-points aside) and gives rewards for all performances. If you want to be #1 you have to regularly beat #1 etc etc
November 1st 2011 @ 8:59am
Aaron said | November 1st 2011 @ 8:59am | Report comment
Great suggestion Mike. Like you, I’m very concerned about how a lot of teams seem to devalue tests in the four year period leading up to the wc. Full respect to the All Blacks for not doing this.
November 1st 2011 @ 9:11am
Jerry said | November 1st 2011 @ 9:11am | Report comment
The All Blacks have been happy to play understrength sides throughout Henry’s tenure and indeed under Mitchell before that. It’s just that they usually win when they do it. I don’t necessarily think NZ gets to take the moral high ground just cause they have more depth.
And as an aside, the whole “NH sides sending a B team down under” happens far less often than people think. France in 2007 is about the last example I can actually think of it happening. France have done it a few times, England have really only done it once that I can think of (and it was 13 years ago – the 98 Tour of Hell) and I can’t recall Ireland, Wales or Scotland ever doing it (though Wales and Scotland have been rare tourists for whatever reason).
November 1st 2011 @ 9:39am
Aaron said | November 1st 2011 @ 9:39am | Report comment
Winning is all that matters. If you win a test, then you haven’t devalued it. I mean, every team does it when they play the tier 2 nations, but as the outcome is already determined we don’t really bother about the relative strength of the team.
November 1st 2011 @ 12:22pm
Rob9 said | November 1st 2011 @ 12:22pm | Report comment
Aaron, you’ve suggested on other posts that certain people with their comments have never watched Rugby before in their lives. Your comments that paint the All Blacks as a team that never devalue the tests status suggest you haven’t watched a game before, or at very least you’re not looking at the team sheets that they put up for certain tests. The AB’s are up there with the worst of them when it comes to using B teams for tactical reasons. Sure they have the depth to send in competitive teams but they’ve gone with lesser teams on countless occasions which under your own definition, ‘devalues’ the status of a rugby test match. Jerry has drawn your attention to this fact, I have on another post as well. Stop pretending that they don’t and attacking other countries that use the same policy.
I think the worst thing they have done is devalue Super Rugby when they chose to rest players in preparation for the last WC. The national governing body spitting in the face of the concept the way they did back then may go some of the way to explaining why Super Rugby is struggling across the ditch nowadays.
November 1st 2011 @ 6:16pm
Aaron said | November 1st 2011 @ 6:16pm | Report comment
Wiil agree with you that they devalued the s14 comp in 07 and it ultimately came back to bite them on the arse later on that year. I guess if you are still good enough to win, then it doesn’t matter which team is on the track as long as the results are not impacted on.
My argument on the other thread was relating to France where they quite frankly have a pathetic record relative to the talent that they have. And I wasn’t j attacking their rotation policy (I don’t actually think I did that) but more so the mindset of their players and coaches whereby they can look like a bunch of chumps one week and then the best team in the worl the next week.
Ultimately, winning is all that matters and hence nobody complains when the top teams play their B teams against second tier nations.
November 1st 2011 @ 7:32pm
sheek said | November 1st 2011 @ 7:32pm | Report comment
Rob9/Aaron,
It ought to be pointed out that the practice of devaluing teams by sending out the Bs is a relatively recent practice.
And it should be seen in the light of all teams playing far more tests at greater intensity than ever before.
Every country is doing it, at least I mean the major countries, who can afford to send out B teams, & still expect to win.
It’s not ideal, but it’s the reality in this world of overcrowded schedules.
November 1st 2011 @ 7:38pm
Shahsan said | November 1st 2011 @ 7:38pm | Report comment
At the RWCs, even weaker teams tend to do this, and this is due to the “five teams in one group” format. The weaker teams know they cannot beat the top seeds, so send in their B players out against them, keeping their best powder dry for the games they CAN win. This is why the thrashings persist.
Not to say Japan could have beaten NZ at the RWC, but if they had played their best team teh margin would have been smaller.
This sort of thinking has happened at every RWC since this format was introduced.
November 1st 2011 @ 8:15pm
Rob9 said | November 1st 2011 @ 8:15pm | Report comment
Sheek, I wrote a post earlier today that landed further down the page stating that this practice isn’t that common these days. Certainly not to the point where it’s ‘suffocating the life out of international rugby in between world cup years’. ICompletly agree that no tier one can claim to be not guilty when it comes to throwing up a weakened side and that it’s just a reality of the professional game. What is a concern is when competitions such as the Tri Nations are ‘devalued’ by teams using what’s meant to be the southern hemisphere’s premier international competition as a ‘warm up’ to the RWC. It shouldn’t be run in world cup years so teams don’t have the opportunity to do this. I’m happy for a window of ‘friendlies’ to run prior to the RWC to allow teams the chance to add the final bits of polish to their respective preparations. But SANZAR can’t (but probably will for bottom line reasons) allow future Tri Nations tournaments to be compromised the way it was this year.
November 1st 2011 @ 9:27pm
Rob9 said | November 1st 2011 @ 9:27pm | Report comment
“I guess if you are still good enough to win, then it doesn’t matter which team is on the track as long as the results are not impacted on.”
This year against the boks you had a team on ice that was good enough to win and the team that GH sent to SA didn’t get the job done. If you want to talk about devaluing test status, this decision by AB management (along with numerous others from the past) takes the cake. For the reasons I’ve stated in my post above, NZ devalued test rugby and the entire Tri Nations tournament which is there to crown the SH’s top test nation annually.
I’ll admit, put in GH’s or any of his counterparts shoes I would have done the same thing. For this reason the Tri Nations shouldn’t be on the calendar in RWC years. But it doesn’t take away from the fact that NZ management (and bok management for that fact) develued test and tri nations rugby with their decisions. It’s a bi-product of the professional game that no team is not guilty of doing. So how you can claim ‘full respect’ for the AB’s for not devaluing test rugby is beyond me.
With regards to France, I suggested their record, which is the best of all NH nations since the game turned pro doesn’t create this image of Les Bleus devaluing test Rugby. And in any event is far from pathetic as you suggest.
Does England, a nation of a similar size where Rugby has a similar level of popularity devalue test rugby because their record since professionalism is inferior to the French? And Ireland? Despite a lack of depth, they’ve still had a squad that most countries would be jealous of, but over the last decade they’ve been the under achievers of world Rugby. Just the one title since the 6 Nations went from 5 to 6 and not progressing into the knockout stage in 07′ when they were at the peak of their powers. What about Wales? A country with a proud Rugby tradition. The Welsh along with the AB’s are the two tier ones that can claim Rugby as their national sport. In the years between 2005 and 2008 they won two 6 Nations titles and took a few SH scalps during some November test windows. Yet in the same period of time they’ve been on the end of a some floggings, finished 2nd last in the two years between their 6 Nations titles, suffered losses to Fiji and Italy and were infamously bundled out of the 07′ WC before the knockout stage. Then down here, my beloved Wallabies got their behinds handed to them by Samoa and the ageing Irish this year. They also copped a shellacking in SA a couple of years ago. Despite them sending a B team our way, we returned the favour to the boks this year. All credit to the AB’s for maintaining what is a frighteningly amazing record in test rugby at all levels over the years. It’s why there’s this aura around them and excitement in the air when any fans team comes up against them. But just because all other nations can’t claim to have the consistency of the AB’s and occasionaly find themselves on the wrong end of some one sided scorelines doesn’t mean they’re devaluing test rugby.
No NH nation can really claim to have a consistent record which at the end of the day is the only measure of whether teams are showing up for test matches. Without being within the French inner sanctum, I don’t believe you can build any sort of an argument to suggest they’re not giving it their all in each and every test match they play in with the resources they have available to them at that time. Part of French Rugby is their flexibility, meaning on any given day you don’t know what you’re going to get with them. Where as you know what you’re going to get with England, the boks and even the AB’s. This unpredictability means that their game plan has the potential to blow up in their face or culiminate in a beautiful display of Rugby. This imo makes the French a true asset to world rugby and completley undeserved of your attacks suggesting they devalue the test status.
November 1st 2011 @ 9:06am
Jerry said | November 1st 2011 @ 9:06am | Report comment
I don’t think any system of making rankings tied to Cup seedings is particularly workable or indeed relevant.
It’s not workable, cause people traveling to a WC need to have some idea which pool their team is gonna be playing in with early enough (eg at least a year or two in advance) to make plans.
And it’s not gonna be relevant cause, when it comes down to it there’s not enough top flight teams in world rugby for it to matter. Look at how the current draw was basically turned on it’s head from one upset (Aus v Ireland). When it comes down to it, a contender knows they need to win 3 knockout matches and a high seeding doesn’t generally make that task much easier.
November 1st 2011 @ 9:27am
Brett McKay said | November 1st 2011 @ 9:27am | Report comment
take your points Jerry, but even basing the seedings for 2015 on 2013 rankings would be better than on RWC2011 placings. Obviously draws need to be done early so that packages can be put on sale with enough lead-in, but I do think the current model takes that to the extreme..
November 1st 2011 @ 9:40am
Jerry said | November 1st 2011 @ 9:40am | Report comment
The rankings for the 2011 WC were based on the IRB rankings in 2008, I believe, which is why you had one pool with the 2nd and 3rd placed sides from 2007.
But even if the rankings were done 6 months from the tournament, I still don’t think there’s much of an advantage to be had in a high seeding – or at least not enough of an advantage to actually make teams take notice. Realistically over the last few years, other than in 2009, it’s generally been the AB’s way out in front then not that much in between the chasing pack.
November 1st 2011 @ 9:54am
Brett McKay said | November 1st 2011 @ 9:54am | Report comment
certainly, Jerry, the teams ranked 2-8 would be taking notice. I suppose, at the end of the day, they’d all be wanting to avoid being drawn into a so-called Pool of Death, or even the situation where pools are perceived to stronger or weaker than others.
I’m not sure when the 2015 seedings will be based on, but if its the same as was the case for this year, then I guess 2012 becomes an importnat year for all teams…
November 1st 2011 @ 11:32am
soapit said | November 1st 2011 @ 11:32am | Report comment
how do they actually seed them? 1 to 8 and them fill in the rest?
i reckon 1 to 8 seeded then random draw for the rest is the way to go.
November 1st 2011 @ 2:12pm
Brett McKay said | November 1st 2011 @ 2:12pm | Report comment
Soapit, I’d imagine the 20 teams are ranked based on their IRB rankings at a point in time, and then they’re just distributed across the pools: 1 into A, 2 into B, 3 into C, 4 into D, 5 into A, and so on??
November 1st 2011 @ 8:23pm
AndyS said | November 1st 2011 @ 8:23pm | Report comment
1-4, 5-8 and 9-12, picked randomly to the pools.
November 1st 2011 @ 10:39am
Pot Hale said | November 1st 2011 @ 10:39am | Report comment
The RWC just finished was seeded according to IRB rankings. Rankings from Dec 2008 were used because the RWC organizers wanted to have plenty of time to organize schedules/accommodation, etc.
When has there been B teams deliberately on show?
November 1st 2011 @ 10:50am
Jerry said | November 1st 2011 @ 10:50am | Report comment
Apart from matches against much weaker opponents (or teams perceived to be, in the case of Aus vs Samoa) the only time I can recall teams sending out weakened sides in the most recent WC cycle is in the most recent Tri-Nations. Shame, NZ & SA, shame.
November 1st 2011 @ 3:30pm
Kuruki said | November 1st 2011 @ 3:30pm | Report comment
Yes shame, but how crucial was it getting game time into guys like Slade considering DC went down.
November 1st 2011 @ 8:14pm
Jerry said | November 1st 2011 @ 8:14pm | Report comment
In the case of Slade, not that important as it turned out, given we ended up with Cruden then Donald…
November 3rd 2011 @ 10:13am
allblackfan said | November 3rd 2011 @ 10:13am | Report comment
Jerry, it was vital.
We have seen that Slade still lacks confidence (even before his injury against the Pumas). Cruden grew into his role (before his injury!) and Donald provided very good backup in his interchange role (kicked the winning goal!).
November 1st 2011 @ 8:35am
stillmissit said | November 1st 2011 @ 8:35am | Report comment
Brett – I agree about Sheek, he rarely says anything stupid. Even if we disregard his continued insistence on a 3rd tier comp, which won’t happen any time soon, still most agree even with that old and thrashed donkey. He is the Don Quixote of the roar.
The world cup is going along fine albeit not being played the way I would like. How the hell can teams like Australia and New Zealand play the way they do and then change their whole MO for one comp every 4 years? I don’t understand it. I truly believe that had New Zealand played their ‘normal’ game they would have blown all teams off the park and the RWC would have recruited a few hundred thousand more affectionado’s around the world.
In terms of who will win the next one I predict that it will be between Australia and New Zealand on a couple of simple points. The Wallabies have a good team that is getting better and the AB’s have such a strong development structure that they will be #1 or #2, assuming that we get our forward play sorted out in the next 4 years. I can’t see anyone else staying in that league, in fact I think the big battles between the AB’s and the Wallabies are about to begin. Can’t wait.
I made a couple of comments on the 2 tier comp above – hate the idea.
November 1st 2011 @ 9:23am
Brett McKay said | November 1st 2011 @ 9:23am | Report comment
SMI, I wouldn’t dare disregard Sheek’s thoughts on a third tier comp, for the simple reason that agree with its requirement! But that’s certainly another discussion for another day..
RWC2011 was the first time the bonus points have been used in the pool stages, and there’s no question that all teams pushed as hard as they could to throw the ball around. Unfortunately, bonus points mean nothing once you get into sudden death mode, and though those games were all still great contests, there was never much chance of the ball seeing width with the stakes so high.
November 1st 2011 @ 10:11am
mitzter said | November 1st 2011 @ 10:11am | Report comment
“RWC2011 was the first time the bonus points have been used in the pool stages, and there’s no question that all teams pushed as hard as they could to throw the ball around”
What?? No it wasn’t – it’s at least been in since 2003 maybe even 1999 if i can remember
November 1st 2011 @ 10:17am
Brett McKay said | November 1st 2011 @ 10:17am | Report comment
Mitzter, I’ll happily stand corrected if you can show me otherwise, and if this is the case, there were several match commentators who will also need correcting..
November 1st 2011 @ 10:31am
mitzter said | November 1st 2011 @ 10:31am | Report comment
Just had a look at the wikipedia pages for the pool stages of each tornament as you got me a little worried but they did have them. ’99 didn’t have them but 03 and 07 did.
Same format as super rugby 4 for a win plus bonus pts for loss under 7 and 4 or more tries
November 1st 2011 @ 10:34am
Brett McKay said | November 1st 2011 @ 10:34am | Report comment
ha, I was doing the same thing! I do stand corrected, but I certianly heard on more than one occasion commentators and pundits mentioning that this was the first time bonus points had been in use..
November 1st 2011 @ 10:33am
mitzter said | November 1st 2011 @ 10:33am | Report comment
btw you should know better than to listen to anything commentators say – I can’t think of any that actually know what they’re talking about:P
November 1st 2011 @ 11:13am
Brett McKay said | November 1st 2011 @ 11:13am | Report comment
yep, fair point Mitz..
November 1st 2011 @ 7:43pm
sheek said | November 1st 2011 @ 7:43pm | Report comment
Stillmissit,
“Old and thrashed donkey”?????
Wait til I get my hands on you. But then again, “aw shucks”!
I agree the RWC is not going away. I also agree with the 20 teams & 4 x 5 team pools.
What I truly believe is that more must be done to lift the minnows in the in-between years.
As for 3rd tier or whatever – it’s a must. The old world of Sydney & Brisbane premier rugby, plus GPS & CAS in Sydney & Brisbane schools doesn’t work anymore.
But until everyone concerned realises & accepts this, Australian rugby will continue to lurch up & down like a yo-yo, in terms of on-field success.
November 1st 2011 @ 9:16am
Working Class Rugger said | November 1st 2011 @ 9:16am | Report comment
Personally splitting the RWC into two distinct competitions defeats the purpose of holding the event. You might as well abolish the whole thing and remain moving sideways with the current Test structures. The World Cup for me apart from crowning a World Champion is about determining the level of progress of the lesser nations in relation to the High Performance Unions.
From next year it has been whispered but not confirmed that both the USA and Canada may be joining the Pacific Nations Cup. On top of that both will be hosting Georgia and Italy. Likewise, Georgia are currently working with the IRB to establish a test schedule that includes regular game against European powers. Similar moves are also occurring for the Russians.
November 1st 2011 @ 9:16am
King of the Gorgonites said | November 1st 2011 @ 9:16am | Report comment
“The point in all this is the IRB has the funds to make this happen” – So what you are saying is that the IRB should throw millions at the likes of Australia to play games against the USA or Japan.
One of my biggest annyoances is when the IRB is criticised for not helping the tier 2 and 3 nations. This ignores the facts that the IRB pours millions of dollars into these nations. From funding the Pacific natinos cup, the european nations cup or the the Chruchill Cup, these are all tournaments funded by the IRB. The problem is the Tier 1 unions. They choose not to play these tier 2 nations because they wont make as much $$$. Why is the Wallabies playing Wales in December? Money. simple as that. nothing is stopping them from going to the USA to play a match. the issue is they wont make any money from it. So is it the IRB responsibility to pay big nations to play lesser nations?
Until the tier 1 nations realise they have an ethical duty to spread the game, Tier 2 nations will be shut out.
A hope i have is that once more billionaries get behind rugby, espically in Russia, they will bankroll the lieks of the ABs to Wallabies to tour their countries. until then there is not much the IRB can do when tier one unions act in such a selfish manner.
Perhaps the IRB could legislate that each Tier 1 nations has to play a certain amount of games against tier 2 nations a year. I would suspect that the tier 1 nations would fight that as they would have to forego more lucartive games.
November 1st 2011 @ 11:29am
Brett McKay said | November 1st 2011 @ 11:29am | Report comment
KotGs, my wording there has perhaps let me down, but I just meant that the IRB could easily fund (or at least cover losses from) the cost of Georgia hosting Australia, or the US hosting the ABs, for examples. I’m not at all suggesting the IRB should just the top teams to visit the lower-ranks.
And certainly, there should be some requirement to host and visit lower-ranked teams, and that why I bring up the June and November windows. The top teams absolutely should recognise their role in improving these teams – ultimately it improves the standard of RWC tournaments, and it truly does grow the game..
November 1st 2011 @ 4:02pm
King of the Gorgonites said | November 1st 2011 @ 4:02pm | Report comment
i would love to see the Wallabies play Georgia in Tiblisi or the Wallabies v USA in Gosford. but it is up to all parties involved to work out how that can be done. as has been demonstrated in recent days, it is vey hard to get differing parties to agree to terms. Accordingly, i dont believe these games will occur, unless for a WC.
November 1st 2011 @ 9:18am
Russ said | November 1st 2011 @ 9:18am | Report comment
What problems are actually trying to be fixed by changing the world cup format? Is it too long? Too many mismatches? Too little point for the lowest ranked teams who have little chance of making the knock-outs? I’d argue, the solution to all three is in expansion to 24 teams (6 groups of 4). The number of mismatches wouldn’t change significantly, but you’d need to significantly reduce the size of the competition to achieve that. Length would remain 7 weeks/games, but the groups could be played on consecutive days, so there would be no need for short-rest. It would add a lot of context for the minnows, as the 16 team second round knockout would include 4 3rd placed teams.
In terms of improving the minnows play, the rapid improvement in football began when players from smaller nations became regular fixtures in the top tier domestic competitions. Playing a few games against a side has nothing on playing with and training with top players. Expanding the number of tests detracts from that, and might be self-defeating. Better to put money into expanding domestic competition and funding scholarships for emerging nations’ players to play in the super-15 and so on. And fix the international window. There is no point minnows having top players if they stay in France.
That said, there is scope to add a regional world cup that mirrors football’s regional tournaments. The depth isn’t available in the IRB regions (Japan struggles to improve because they dominate Asia), but perhaps a 16 team northern and 8 team southern hemisphere tournament would work. Alternatively, force all teams to qualify for the world cup, which would add a handful of fixtures, though it is more costly to run.
November 1st 2011 @ 9:59am
Brett McKay said | November 1st 2011 @ 9:59am | Report comment
Russ, there’s some great points here, but I’l just focus on one – scholarships/exemptions/incentives for players from the lower-ranked teams to play in Super Rugby/UK/France (even Japan) is an EXCELLENT idea. SANZAR should just implement this anyway…
November 1st 2011 @ 10:32am
Working Class Rugger said | November 1st 2011 @ 10:32am | Report comment
Brett
I keep suggesting this but all 15 Super Rugby franchises should open 5 squad places to accommodate not only initially Argentine player’s but development player’s from Tier 2 nations. Because Argentina are now in the 4Ns guarantee 50% of the paces to term and the other to Tier 2 players. At present this would mean 75 places would be opened with say 40 of them being occupied by up and coming Argentine s and 35 by Tier 2 players. This would also in my opinion allow for further expansion of teams in each conference from 5 to 6 as opening another 15 spots.
November 1st 2011 @ 8:42pm
AndyS said | November 1st 2011 @ 8:42pm | Report comment
So, just to be clear, you are saying that Australia should pay for the development of 25 Argentinean/other players while leaving 25 Australian players back in the amateur grades – I take it that is because we have such robust development systems, giving us such obvious depth of Test ready players?
Or would these players be funded by the IRB, such that they were essentially free to each franchise and provide additional depth? Can’t see the IRB coming at that….
Little steps – let’s get our own house in order before trying to fix everyone else’s problems. You could make a fair case that we have the least rational and robust rugby structure of any country; certainly of any of the top teams.
November 1st 2011 @ 9:44pm
Working Class Rugger said | November 1st 2011 @ 9:44pm | Report comment
No. Realistically this wouldn’t be able to occur at best until after the next rounds of expansion. Under this model this would mean that 25 of our own players would be put out. Where would we put them. In a sixth franchise with an additional 5 Argentine or Tier 2 players. Same for NZ and SA. If by them Argentina get a franchise or franchises then more Tier 2 player’s would get the opportunity. Then the process would repeat.
November 1st 2011 @ 9:19am
Nick_Brisbane said | November 1st 2011 @ 9:19am | Report comment
Off – point but does anyone know why rugby editor Wayne Smith (The Australian) abruptly signed off last week with “I have been assigned to other duties” and hasnt been seen since?
November 1st 2011 @ 9:53am
Atawhai Drive said | November 1st 2011 @ 9:53am | Report comment
Nick, keep an eye on The Australian’s cricket pages over the coming months. There is more to add, but not on a public forum (and no, I’m not Wayne Smith operating under a pseudonym).
November 1st 2011 @ 10:20am
Justin said | November 1st 2011 @ 10:20am | Report comment
Cmon AD, giev us something, its not like we know who you are…
November 1st 2011 @ 10:52am
Jerry said | November 1st 2011 @ 10:52am | Report comment
Wayne Smith has revealed he’s actually the other Wayne Smith all along. He’s off to help coach the Chiefs.
November 1st 2011 @ 10:53am
Jerry said | November 1st 2011 @ 10:53am | Report comment
It was all part of the NZRU’s underhanded tactics to destabilise their trans-Tasman counterparts (otherwise known as Operation QuaDingo.
November 1st 2011 @ 9:56am
Brett McKay said | November 1st 2011 @ 9:56am | Report comment
Nick, I saw that and assumed it just meant he was doing other things in lieu of no rugby being played. Cricket writer Peter Lalor was recently undertaking the thankless task of finding the 20 best Australian beers….
November 1st 2011 @ 10:00am
Atawhai Drive said | November 1st 2011 @ 10:00am | Report comment
More to it than that, Brett.
November 1st 2011 @ 11:55am
rl said | November 1st 2011 @ 11:55am | Report comment
Nick, it’s a sad indictment on the state of rugby journalism in Australia that Wayne’s reassignment to other duties (which I believe is permanent) even rates a mention. We Qlders had to put up with his writing for years in the Courier Mail, and then he was foisted on the national audience. In my view the only decent, objective analysis presented in this country is by Rod Kafer, but he’s not in print and he quite wisely stays away from commenting on off-field politics. Maybe news ltd’s Jim Tucker is ok, but it’s a pretty thin field.
November 1st 2011 @ 3:46pm
jeznez said | November 1st 2011 @ 3:46pm | Report comment
I think Paul Cully is up there as well. Although I didn’t like the regurgitation of UK press through the world cup – when he actually puts his own thoughts down on paper they are excellent.
November 1st 2011 @ 10:08am
The Other Reds Fan. said | November 1st 2011 @ 10:08am | Report comment
Brett, sadly this world cup will be remembered for the poor refereeing. It started with the NZ ref in the Aus v Ireland (ensuring Aus & SA would beat each other up before confronting NZ) and finished with the final where NZ repeatedly got away with murder and I can only conclude that it was done to ensure NZ won the cup, all masterminded from above by Kiwi Paddy O’Brien. As someone said, if NZ wants it that badly, just give it to them. For France to be fined for daring to challenge the haka was the final insult to the rugby public. Why are the All Blacks such a protected species? All kiwis should be embarrassed rather than proud. France was robbed.
November 1st 2011 @ 10:21am
Brett McKay said | November 1st 2011 @ 10:21am | Report comment
only if that’s the way you want to remember it, TORF. I don’t buy the conspiracy theories, personally…
November 1st 2011 @ 3:25pm
The Other Reds Fan. said | November 1st 2011 @ 3:25pm | Report comment
Conspircay theories or not, the standard of reffing was abysmal and tarnished the tournament.
November 1st 2011 @ 4:05pm
Brett McKay said | November 1st 2011 @ 4:05pm | Report comment
It didn’t tarnish the tournament for me though TORF, that’s my point. It was certainly ordinary at times, no question, but I’m not wasting my time worrying about it – I much prefer to remember the rugby..
November 1st 2011 @ 10:11am
Ryan O'Connell said | November 1st 2011 @ 10:11am | Report comment
What else did we learn? That Brett has purchased some Photoshop software! Look at that photo! You look almost. . .presentable.
November 1st 2011 @ 10:20am
Brett McKay said | November 1st 2011 @ 10:20am | Report comment
funny, I tell you, I almost laughed…