Argentina’s expansion could open new world for rugby
Roar Guru By Working Class Rugger, 21 Dec 2011 Working Class Rugger is a Roar Guru
- Tagged:
- Argentina rugby, Brazil rugby, Campenato Argentino, Chile rugby, CONSUR, Paraguay rugby, Rugby Union, Uruguay rugby
Argentina's sky-blue strip (AAP Image/AFP/Marty Melville)
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Earlier in the week the Argentine Rugby Union (UAR) announced an expansion to their long-established provincial championship structure, the Campenato Argentino.
What is the significance of this expansion?
What does expanding the competition internally do to for rugby in Argentina, or in South America more broadly?
Well, domestically, an expansion would provide more players the opportunity to prove themselves at a higher level, while attempting to gain entry to the Las Pampas system and professional rugby within their own nation.
This expansion, however, is not about domestic rugby. Instead, from its next edition, the Compenato Argentino will begin to see the likes of Chile, Uruguay, Brazil and Uruguay compete within its three-tiered provincial set-up.
From 2012, both Chile and Uruguay will find themselves in the pressure cooker of the Argentine 1st Division alongside the likes of Buenos Aires, Salta and Cordoba. At the same time, Brazil and Paraguay will start off in the third division in a quest to seek promotion.
This presents a significant development in Argentine rugby, as South America’s strongest rugby nation chooses to adopt a leadership role in a region where the game is experiencing strong growth but receives little attention.
Word is that within some circles of Argentine rugby this move is unpopular. In a positive sign of a move toward autonomy, the UAR implemented the initiative regardless. If it is maintained it will pay no end of dividends for the game as a competitive sport on the continent.
The only real criticism to emerge is that of positioning of Brazil in the third division as opposed to Chile and Uruguay, against whom Brazil has improved immensely over the past three years. The Brazilian squad also competed pleasingly at the recent Emirates Cup of Nations. They fell just shy of Kenya, before handing hosts the UAE a heavy defeat, and performing admirably against eventual winners Hong Kong.
Hopefully their placing in the third division will drive the squad to rapidly push for promotion to join their CONSUR A counterparts. This is an aim they have already made clear, and I believe from monitoring their progress it is entirely possible.
Overall the expansion is a very positive development not only for rugby in South America but the game as a whole. It leaves one to wonder about the timing of such a move, especially one that closely mimics the Super 8 proposal the IRB submitted, offering to fund the entire initiative.
Does it have something to do with Argentina’s arrival as a regular in The Rugby Championship, and talk of the development of an Argentine team or Argentina-based conference in Super Rugby?
One thing is for certain: such a move can only prove worthwhile for a region that could install rugby as the continent’s second football code, and whose influence could reach further to the likes of Columbia, who are looking to begin to make moves toward the game.
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December 21st 2011 @ 6:49am
The Grafter said | December 21st 2011 @ 6:49am | Report comment
Great for the game WCR.
Will only benefit South American rugby, and yes, perhaps more than just a coincident with the WRC expansion next year.
December 21st 2011 @ 8:57am
gatesy said | December 21st 2011 @ 8:57am | Report comment
Don’t know that much about it, but it can only be good for the game and put more pressure on North American standards.
December 21st 2011 @ 10:02am
Rough Conduct said | December 21st 2011 @ 10:02am | Report comment
Nice article WCR, this is exciting news from the UAR. The geography of the region is a great advantage for South American rugby, with Montevideo and Santiago within easy reach of Argentinean rugby cities, Sao Paulo is also not that far from the north of Argentina, I assume this is where the Brazilian team will be based – it would be great to see them do well and warrant promotion into the Ascenso and eventually the Campeonato zone.
So the two groups of the first division are;
Grupo 1: Córdoba, Tucumán, Salta, San Juan y Chile.
Grupo 2: Buenos Aires, Cuyo, Rosario, Mar del Plata y Uruguay.
This set-up has great potential for development of a professional competition, 10 city-based provincial teams split into two conferences. This is low-hanging fruit for both the IRB and SANZAR in terms of development of the game and opening up new markets – they should both get right behind the UAR in developing the Campeonto further.
December 21st 2011 @ 1:26pm
Sharminator said | December 21st 2011 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
Professional rugby is what is really needed in South America .. as players here still cannot live from rugby unless they get into the Pampa XV or go to euriope.
In terms of geography it isnt perhaps as easy as you might think. Sao Paolo is more than 24 hours by bus from Asuncion Paraguay, and Buenos Aires another 24 hours. When Ive travelled with the Paraguayan team to play Cordoba and Rosario it has also involved 20 hour bus journeys. But travelling is part of the deal with rugby here.
Including the national teams in the campeonato is actually an IRB idea … in the last few years there was a pre or post season cross border competion funded by the IRB betweem national teams and Argeintinian provinces, and now these teams are being fully included in the Argie Championship proper. I can remember his name .. but there was an ex England player who lived in Buenos Aires for a few years working for the UAR and IRB to professionalise structures and he actually came up with the ideas for High Performance Centres and Cross Border competitions about 5 years ago.
December 21st 2011 @ 1:29pm
Johnno said | December 21st 2011 @ 1:29pm | Report comment
Sharminator who says the teams will travel by coach lol. This is not the movie “planes trains and automobiles” Sharminator lol.
December 21st 2011 @ 1:32pm
HardcorePrawn said | December 21st 2011 @ 1:32pm | Report comment
Nor, I hope, will it be the movie ‘Alive’
December 21st 2011 @ 1:39pm
Johnno said | December 21st 2011 @ 1:39pm | Report comment
Hardcore Prawn you have a point lol.
How about “romancing in the stone” that is in between coach and flying, to get from A to B.
December 21st 2011 @ 1:43pm
Sharminator said | December 21st 2011 @ 1:43pm | Report comment
ummmm ….. that is how rugby teams in South America travel buddy … for the South American Championship CONSUR pays the plane trip, but for all other competitions, including the cross border competitions paid for by the IRB in previous years, for Uruguay, Chile, Paraguay and Brazil, it has involved bus travel to play against argentinian provinces.
That is why in previous years the cross border north zone has been Paraguay, Brazil, URNE and Missiones (the two stronger far north unions). All travelling by bus.
I cant see the IRB or UAR offering to pay for plance travel and neither Chile, Uruguay, Paraguay or Brazil have the money to pay for up to 6 plane trips for 30 plus people if they reach the final of the campeonato.
You have to remember these are 3rd world countries … in Paraguay where I live the average salary es $200 a month … and rugby does no have money to pay for plane trips.
December 21st 2011 @ 1:44pm
kingplaymaker said | December 21st 2011 @ 1:44pm | Report comment
Johnno coach travel is the big thing in South America: seriously!
December 21st 2011 @ 10:21am
Johnno said | December 21st 2011 @ 10:21am | Report comment
I think long term North and south america will form closer bonds instead of work without he ASIA-PACIFIC, and SANZAR.
Great news for the sport in south america i hope the fans get behind it.
December 21st 2011 @ 10:50am
AC said | December 21st 2011 @ 10:50am | Report comment
Maybe. They have the big disadvantage of having seasons starting approx 6 months apart. I think it makes much more sense for South America to work amongst themselves, using Argentina’s exposure to the best 3 teams in the world to rub off on them.
December 21st 2011 @ 1:35pm
Sharminator said | December 21st 2011 @ 1:35pm | Report comment
Not sure Johnno … none of the IRB initiatives between South and North America has really worked so far … there have been 4 or 5 different competitions in the last 10 years and none of them have lasted.
Distance seems to be a big problem, then there was the strange “Americas Championship” which had in its final year a rond robin between four Canadian Teams, with the winners playing the National B teams of the US, Tonga, and Argentina or something like that. it was a bit confusing.
Canada seems to have a solid national structure, Argentina has one which can be improved …. somehow I think the US needs to get its game together more with a structure above the club based super league (not just a territorial union championship as exists now)
December 21st 2011 @ 11:11am
WQ said | December 21st 2011 @ 11:11am | Report comment
Time will tell all!
However any ongoing exposure to a higher level of Rugby for any group of players inevitably improves their standard of Rugby.
It would be good to see a South American Team in the Rugby Championship, however in my opinion the focus should first be on a Pacific Islands Team or Teams in the Rugby Championship.
December 21st 2011 @ 11:24am
Johnno said | December 21st 2011 @ 11:24am | Report comment
WQ pacific islands nations are way way way to small, to develop good money out of , tv ratings $$$$.
Tonga only has 104,000 people tiny.
Samoa 180,000 people
Fiji 860,000 people and many of those are Fijian Indian who are not traditoally a major fan base of Fiji rugby.
SO way too small WQ. You would have ot play home matches in Australia or NZ as well which isn’t bad as massive populations but just too small tv ratings wise.
I would have Japan in ahead of any of the 3 pacific island teams more tv ratings $$$$.
December 21st 2011 @ 1:49pm
kingplaymaker said | December 21st 2011 @ 1:49pm | Report comment
Agreed, when you compare the U.S.A 300 million, and Tonga 104,000, it’s obvious which country has more room for growth. Sad but true. If there were national teams playing in competitions from Samoa, Tonga, Fiji, they would probably have to be based in Auckland and Sydney.
December 21st 2011 @ 2:05pm
Johnno said | December 21st 2011 @ 2:05pm | Report comment
Agreed KPM money is everything in pro sport, and you just can’t put teams in small tv ratings $$$$ no matter how passionate the fans are if it is too small it won’t make money. like Darwin and Hobart but that is a debatable 1, only reason AFL has not put teams in those cities is population size.
USA/Canada/Japan/BrazilMexico/South Korea.China/sSouth korea/chile/uruguay/singapore far more potential than teams in Fiji/Samoa/Tonga who all have zero chance.
All the pacific island teams would have to play in Aucklan/sydney/brisbane or anywhere in Australia or NZ.
But home matches in those countries forget it. And i love pacific islands rugby KPM , and want it developed properly, but for me i am happy if pacific island rugby can field strong teams in the rugby world cup via changing eligibity laws, and all there talent are getting chances to play in euro rugby/japan/super 15.
But if the SH rugby championship expands i could just about bet my life there is no way a team would play there home matches in Samoa/Tonga maybe Fiji but not Samoa/Tonga.
300 million to 104,000 wow has there ever been more of a David and Goliath mismatch . NO.
But maybe it just occurred to me China VS Tibet.
But that is the magnitude of difference to what USA can bring to the table $$$$$ tv ratings, and what Tonga can bring.
Samoa/Tonga are still small than all of Newcastle’s population by about 10,000, not even in the same ball park the pacific islands compered to USA/JAPAN/Canada/ARGENTINA/Brazil/chile/Paruaguy/Uruguay .
December 21st 2011 @ 2:08pm
kingplaymaker said | December 21st 2011 @ 2:08pm | Report comment
Agreed Johnno. GIven the the U.S pushed Ireland close at the RWC, and that the Super season doesn’t clash with the NFL season, buying the U.S. first XV and creating a Super team in L.A. looks obvious and problem- free.
December 21st 2011 @ 2:17pm
Johnno said | December 21st 2011 @ 2:17pm | Report comment
Well someone wrote eon another article here today KPM, about London wasps for sale and USA rugby buying it, and playing matches in NY as money spinners $$$$ and dividing up home games, i think it would be a wonderful idea myself for USA rugby too do it. Great to get then some USA players playing in Aviva cup, and HEK CUP, and giving USA real exposure to prime time rugby without say compromising the legitimacy of an all euro comp.
I mean Hawthorn do it now with launceston anyway play many home matches in tasmania.
Suprer rugby expansionin LA sounds good KPM, but what gets me now is this.
Super rugby now has 15 teams.
the balance does not feel right unless all countires have the same amount of super teams, WHY.
Coz of the local derby system now in place, would be unsettled, and i think local derbies system have helped super 15 more than harmed it, and reduced travel cost.
December 21st 2011 @ 2:31pm
kingplaymaker said | December 21st 2011 @ 2:31pm | Report comment
Johnno the only way to balance it would be to have one new team in each conference: for example Tokyo in the Australian one, L.A. in the New Zealand one (bad luck for them), and Buenos Aires in the South African one. In this way three massive markets would be opened up in one go while maintaining the symmetry of equal numbers of teams.
The talk of NY and the English premiership shows that Super rugby should rush to get there first before someone else does!
December 22nd 2011 @ 3:21pm
WQ said | December 22nd 2011 @ 3:21pm | Report comment
Good point Johnno and I do accept that the big bucks will struggle to come from small population bases. However I think that the IRB needs to get the balance right between funding the development of Rugby in emerging Rugby playing Countries and the ongoing development of Rugby in existing Test Rugby playing Countries.
It is fine to accept that the big money is with the bigger developed population bases but I for one would be very disapointed to see the IRB stop developing the Pacific Island Countries. Some of the greatest players the World has seen come from these Countries.
The other point I would make on this issue is that this type of inclusion i.e. Team in the Rugby Championship for the Pacific Island Nations, would have an enormous and immediate effect on their Test performances. The same level of support for emerging Countries may take decades to improve their Test performances.
December 22nd 2011 @ 6:29pm
Johnno said | December 22nd 2011 @ 6:29pm | Report comment
WQ i would be shattered too , i think pacific islander players offer the most genetically suited to rugby more than nay other human race. Melenesian and polynesian people majority are more so naturally designed ot rugby than white players in australia for example.
The IRB recognise this to a degree i would say they are spending quite big on development of rugby around the world.
And they built a rugby academy that cost at least $3.5 million dollars, thetas quite a lot for a sports academy.
And the polynesian players have got better it was obvious in Samoa and tonga teams, the benefits of full time professionalism was there for all too see.
Where samoa and tonga will struggle in world cups is a few things, internal politics, and coaching quality.
Samoa or tonga or Fiji unless there is a rich benificator willing ot spend up big, ala Aussies did signing guss hiding to a rich short team deal,
FiJI,samoa,Tonga, highly highly highly unlikely to sign a coach like graham henry standard for the world cup.
Michela foley helped Fiji out apparently in a consulting role or samoa one of the 2, and totaui kefu helped tonga out, but a graham henry standard would be nice but dream on for the pacific island teams to attract a coach like graham henry a lot of $$$$$ dollars it would cost.
December 21st 2011 @ 11:45am
HardcorePrawn said | December 21st 2011 @ 11:45am | Report comment
I reckon that the advances made by Argentinian rugby constitute some of the most exciting things to have happened to the sport since 1987. The emergence of the national side at the top table has managed to upset the hegemony of the “big boys”, especially in 2007, and it would be great to see if this progress can be spread throughout South America.
I’m not usually a fan of seeing representative sides appearing in other countries but can see the benefit here as the likes of Brazil, Uruguay, and Chile probably don’t have the strength of depth to populate a full league of a decent standard. And having a rep team competing against the likes of Buenos Aires is sure to promote the sport, especially in those countries that traditionally see Argentina as their sporting rivals.
Here’s hoping that there’ll be somewhere online to get to watch the Campenato Argentino, it could be the start of something special.
What I also find interesting is that while Argentina and their neighbours are taking these steps, we’re still without a national rugby tournament in Australia. I would hope that the ARU, having taken a look at this revamped Campenato Argentino, will be quite embarrassed by their own lack of a national competition.
December 21st 2011 @ 1:18pm
Sharminator said | December 21st 2011 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
Exactly Hardcore .. Argentina are so far ahead in rugby terms, that is makes sense for Uruguay, Chile; Brazil and Paraguay to play their provinces. We have been doing so for a few years, and it has helped raise standards.
ESPN actually does a really god job of televising rugby in South America.
I find it ironic .. but in South America I get to see more rugby on tv than I ever to see when I was living in Australia or in Europe!!!
This is because ESPN bought the rights to show basically all rugby .. we get the Super 15, Top 14 from France, The Guiness Premiership, The Heienken Cup, The Six Nations, Tri Nations and most of the international tests in June and November! And usually live and then with a repeat.
In terms of local rugby ESPN+ show both the URBA (Buenos Aires) Championship, the Campeonato Argentino, and the National Club Competition (which the champions clubs of each union play against each other at the end of the year).
I am not sure if you can get ESPN+ Latin America on line anywhere … but they will be showing it in March and April.
you could also check for results, and highlights videos (although it is in Spanish), on
http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/rugby/
December 21st 2011 @ 1:34pm
HardcorePrawn said | December 21st 2011 @ 1:34pm | Report comment
Thanks Sharminator, I’ll have to brush up on my Spanish, or put up with Google’s translation service mangling the text!
December 21st 2011 @ 1:45pm
Sharminator said | December 21st 2011 @ 1:45pm | Report comment
by the way … on the rugby site dont click on the “English” button as it will take you to espn´s american rugby site .. which dosnt have any of the Argie stuff
December 21st 2011 @ 1:47pm
kingplaymaker said | December 21st 2011 @ 1:47pm | Report comment
A very informative series of posts Sharminator: you should write some articles on these subjects as interest in rugby will increase with the appearance of Argentina in the Rugby championship (ridiculous name) next year.
An important question is how popular do you think rugby is/would be for TV viewers in Argentina? Specifically, a professional rugby competition?
December 21st 2011 @ 2:00pm
Sharminator said | December 21st 2011 @ 2:00pm | Report comment
ESPN have two cable channels here .. ESPN, ESPN+, and rugby is shown on ESPN+.
Alghough it is only shown on cable, cable penetration is relatively high … as it is the only way to watch Argentinian or othe countries domestic football championships.
Argentinian club rugby is shown live every Saturday afternoon on ESPN+ in all Southern Cone countries (Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile). They usually show international rugby or European Club or Super 15 before and after the club rugby … so you can actually sit down and watch rugby all day.
So most people know about rugby. I teach in a school here, and most of my students did watch the world cup (all south americans support the pumas in the world cup). I guess part of the problem is converting people from just watching to actually participating.
I started a rugby program in my school and it is quite popular .. the sports master banned us from the main field in the end because some of his players saw us training and quit the soccer team to play rugby!
Rugby is still a relatively elite sport in Buenos Aires for private schoolboys .. but in the provinces such as Mendoza, Cordoba, and Tucuman it rival football for popularity (probably also because in these areas their rugby teams are stronger than their football teams and can beat Buenos Aires teams, which is almos impossible in football).
December 21st 2011 @ 2:06pm
kingplaymaker said | December 21st 2011 @ 2:06pm | Report comment
Thanks again, so you think a well run professional competition would be able to create a TV market for viewers?
December 21st 2011 @ 2:13pm
Sharminator said | December 21st 2011 @ 2:13pm | Report comment
The tv market is already there … I think the problem is sponsporship money, set up costs and a wealthy benefactor to pump in the money to get a professional league off the ground.
December 21st 2011 @ 2:28pm
kingplaymaker said | December 21st 2011 @ 2:28pm | Report comment
Sharminator: the IRB can provide all those things
December 21st 2011 @ 11:48am
kingplaymaker said | December 21st 2011 @ 11:48am | Report comment
Very good article.
It does seem curious that there is only one Buenos Aires team in all this, while almost half the population live there.
I wonder who will be paying the transport costs in all this: the IRB we hope?
December 21st 2011 @ 1:07pm
Sharminator said | December 21st 2011 @ 1:07pm | Report comment
Hi Kingplaymaker,
Argentina has a population of 40 odd million, and about 13 million live in Buenos Aires, but two of the other provinces in the Zona Campeonato, Rosario and Mar Del Plata, are provinces bordering Buenos Aires and include clubs and players that geographically could be said to be part of Buenos Aires.
In one of those strange historical things in the URBA competition (the Buenos Aires Rugby Union Competition), for traditional reasons Rosario Athletic and Mar del Plata Rugby Club, each from the said region, actually play the Top 14, the top level of competition in Buenos Aires. Other clubs in their cities play in their own regional union´s competitions, but it means that some Buenos Aires players play for them.
It is also worth noting that many players migrate from the interior to Buenos Aires to play in the URBA for work reasons, the clubs there being well connected and able to provide jobs, however, players can play for the region they grew up in, or for the region they are living in, so many of the top players in Buenos Aires actually play for the regional union they came from.
In relation to costs, the IRB paid for the Cross Border comp … but as this is now part of the Campeonato Argentino I am not sure. I assume that maybe the IRB is paying for the national teams as the whole cross border concept was their idea … while regional unions continue to pay their own cosas.
December 21st 2011 @ 1:42pm
kingplaymaker said | December 21st 2011 @ 1:42pm | Report comment
Thanks Sharminator.
Playing numbers in Argentina seem very high, and with a professional competition one would think it would be easy to translate that into a high number of top level players. Do you think that will happen so easily?
On a separate note, I don’t see where the players to create a Super team would come from, as the best play for large salaries in Europe, unless of course the IRB paid similar salaries to draw them back to Argentina to make up the team.
December 21st 2011 @ 2:19pm
Sharminator said | December 21st 2011 @ 2:19pm | Report comment
The Pampas XV .. essentially Argentina B … has played the Vodacom Cup (second tier south african comp run concurrently with the Super 15) since 2010 and actually won it this year, so I think there is the talent there.
I think it just needs to be given the opportunity in a professioanl environment.
Part of the idea of Argentina being in the tri nations, and the Pampas XV is to lure back players to argentina and to allow them to be professional in Argentina.
A Super team would be an even bigger draw for Argies to stay at home, Argentinians have a very strong family culture and I think most would prefer to live in Argentina if they could. There have been cases such as the Fernandez Miranda brothers who got into the Pumas, went to Europe, then quit and came back to Argentina for family reasons, but kept playing in the Pumas,
I think the two areas that do need improving in Argentina are coaching and refereeing. There are very few foreign coaches who have ever ventured here and many of the methods are 20 or 30 years old.
December 21st 2011 @ 12:35pm
Bay35Pablo said | December 21st 2011 @ 12:35pm | Report comment
I don’t like seeing national sides appearing in domestic comps, but presumably these will be “club” sides that are essentially national sides in all but name, and thus perpetuate the fiction. I can live with that.
Seems the way to go, and hopefully will strengthen rugby throughout South America. Which in turn is good for Argentine rugby.
The South Americans love beating each other in any sport, so adding a macho sport like rugby will hopefully be very attractive to the sports mad crowds there, after football. Surely nationalism will make them support the team playing the sport, then they will get exposed to rugby and grow to love it too.
Time zones for TV, and travelling, means it makes more sense for North America to compete with South Amercia. Would be great to see a club champions league with the top 2 or 4 from rach continent competing against each other. San Franciso Golden Gate v Buenoes Aires anyone? Of course, at least semi-prfessionalism, sponsorship and a TV deal would help …
December 21st 2011 @ 1:51pm
Sharminator said | December 21st 2011 @ 1:51pm | Report comment
“I don’t like seeing national sides appearing in domestic comps, but presumably these will be “club” sides that are essentially national sides in all but name, and thus perpetuate the fiction. I can live with that.”
Not sure what you mean there Bay. Uruguay, Chile, Paraguay and Brazil all have long established national club championships from Seniors down to Junior levels, and National Teams do have players from various clubs. Usually players from the top 2 or 3 clubs do predominate, but obiviously anyone can be selected in the national team if they are good enough.
I dont really see any club champions league every happenning. The Argentinian Championship is a regional champnionship .. each region then has clubs at a level below that. In the US structure San Francicso is simply a club … not a region .. Buenos Aires in contrast has 16 000 players to choose from .. so I dont think San Fran would be that competative.
December 21st 2011 @ 1:59pm
Bay35Pablo said | December 21st 2011 @ 1:59pm | Report comment
National teams should only play Tests regularly. Would be the same as having Fiji, etc play in the Super 15. It cheapens the national jersey. Play as a provincial team by all means, but don’t field national teams in a club comp.
December 21st 2011 @ 2:09pm
Sharminator said | December 21st 2011 @ 2:09pm | Report comment
dios mio ….. “don’t field national teams in a club comp” read what I said before PLEEASSEEE.
Its not a club comp .. the campeonato argentino is a regional competition … each region of the UAR in the campeonato has their own club comp from which they select their best players.
Chile, Uruguay, Brazil and Paraguay fit in perfectly with the Campeonato Argentino .. as they have the same strength as the Argie regional sides and similar playing numbers to some of the regions.
Playing more games at a higher level of competition will only strengthen south american rugby.
There is no cheapening of the jersey as these are not tests, no one from any of these countries would argue against being included in the competition.
Tests in the Sudamericano, and the chance to play against Argentina if you reach the final, are the ultimate for any Chilean, Uruguayan, Brazillian or Paraguayan player-
December 21st 2011 @ 3:47pm
Working Class Rugger said | December 21st 2011 @ 3:47pm | Report comment
I think what Bay is trying to allude to is that the teams from Chile, Uruguay, Brazil and Paraguay should enter under either the capital they’ll play out of or the region it falls into instead of there national colours
December 21st 2011 @ 9:32pm
Bay35Pablo said | December 21st 2011 @ 9:32pm | Report comment
Exactly WCR. Thanks.
Club, region. Doesn’t matter. They ain’t national teams.
In fact, given the Super comp is a “provincial” comp, my point about Fiji etc was on point.
December 21st 2011 @ 8:26pm
kiwidave said | December 21st 2011 @ 8:26pm | Report comment
Fiji never did but Samoa and Tonga played in the original super 10. I’ll wager if there was money in it they would be in the super 15 right now.
December 22nd 2011 @ 4:59pm
allblackfan said | December 22nd 2011 @ 4:59pm | Report comment
fiji played in the original super 6; I covered their fiji-based games for the paper I was working for
December 21st 2011 @ 2:00pm
kingplaymaker said | December 21st 2011 @ 2:00pm | Report comment
Sharminator, how come rugby hasn’t taken off in Uruguay, Chile, Paraguay, Brazil with such a structured base? Lack of a professional top tier?
It seems to me, as a very general point, that the problem with rugby in many countries is not the structure and so forth, but simply the absence of this professional top tier.
As for the U.S.A. the only solution would be a Super team in L.A. with basically the U.S. national team, who would all have to be bought back from Europe, as the Argentinians would. Then one day another team in NY.
December 21st 2011 @ 2:01pm
Bay35Pablo said | December 21st 2011 @ 2:01pm | Report comment
Roger Melville was musing on Ruggamatrix USa that it would be great to buy London Wasps (which are apparently looking for a buyer), move them to NY or similar, and play essentially the Eagles in the Premiership.
December 21st 2011 @ 2:00pm
Bay35Pablo said | December 21st 2011 @ 2:00pm | Report comment
SFGG not competitive. Fine, when you have a comp”California” is playing in, it can play Buenos Aires. I’ll play Rumpelstiltskin while we wait for that to be set up by Rugby USA …..
December 21st 2011 @ 12:43pm
Mike said | December 21st 2011 @ 12:43pm | Report comment
It sounds good.
I’m glad to see anything that will result in more people being exposed to what a great game is Rugby.
December 21st 2011 @ 12:49pm
Sharminator said | December 21st 2011 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
Hi,
for those that dont know, Im an Aussie who has lived in Paraguay for nearly six years, and played rugby for Paraguay, so thought Id chip in with my 10 cents worth.
While it seems quite a significant move by the UAR, it actually isnt that much of a change, and, while benefitting the other nations, it isnt the move that Argentinian rugby needs to develop.
In the last few years there has been an IRB sponsored set of competitions called the “cross-border” (for some reason I never understood they kept the name in English) with Chile playing a round robin with two or three of the Western Argentinean Unions, Uruguay playing two of the River Plate Unions, and Brazil and Paraguay playing URNE, Missiones and (before Brazil came in) Formosa.
The first time we and I (Paraguay) played it was in 2008 .. and It has variously played at the end of the season and the start of the season in 2009, 2010 and 2011. For the Argentinian Unions it served as preparation for the Campeonato Argentino, and for the National Teams, preparation for the South American Championship and to blood new players.
Incorporating the National Teams into the Campeonato Argentino proper is a step up and means we are now competing for a real trophy .. rather than just pre-season, so it is a good move .. but I think this was part of the IRB cross border plan all along to get more games for national unions in the region.
In terms of the level of the teams, it is about right … Uruguay and Chile belong in and have the ability to compete in the Zona Campeonato (the top division).
Brazil and Paraguay deserve to start in desarollo as in previous years we have competed well with Missiones and beaten Formosa (in Desarollo, 3rd division) but Noreste (in Zona Ascenso, the second division) have convncingly beaten both of us in the last 2 years, and I assume we would be eligible for promotion as are the other teams with promotion/relegation games between the top and bottom of each division.
Although Brazil have improved vastly in the last 6 years, they do not yet really compete with Chile or Uruguay and have not come close to beating them in XV´s.
Seven´s is another area where South American rugby is making great strides, Brazil beat Argentina in the Sudamericano for the first time this year (although Argetnina went on to win), Peru has also been improving, holding the South American B championships and competing strongly in the recent South American Beach 7´s, and Venezuela won the South American B Championships.
While it is a positive move for Chile, Uruguay, Paraguay and Brazil, I actually dont think this is what Argentinian rugby needs.
The problem with Argentinian rugby is that it is still amateur. There is no professional rugby within Argentina (the Pamaps XV competes in the Vodacom Cup in South Africa … but this year when the players returned the Buenos Aires Rugby Union prohibited any of those played playing for their clubs for half the season as they were “professionals”. This old farts attitude is one that still permeates argentinean rugby.
Since 2007 Agustin Pichot and various other players have been calling for a professional league to replace the campeonato Argentino as the top level of Argentinian rugby. The problem is that this is against the interests of the top Buenos Aires Clubs and of the majority of the provinces who due to size or playing resources would not be involved and are consequently against it(a good example is Formosa .. the smallest union in the UAR .. it borders Paraguay and only has once major city and half a dozen clubs compared to URBA which has 80 clubs and 16 000 players)
A 6 or 8 team professional championship, perhaps including Chile and Uruguay but allowing them to have some Argie reinforcements, with a second Buenos Aires team replacing one of the other regional teams would probably be the best option. The questions, as always though in sport .. is where the funding could come from. The present campeonato is amatuer and only lasts 2 months after which players go back to their clubs.
December 21st 2011 @ 8:38pm
kiwidave said | December 21st 2011 @ 8:38pm | Report comment
“Since 2007 Agustin Pichot and various other players have been calling for a professional league to replace the campeonato Argentino as the top level of Argentinian rugby.”
“The present campeonato is amateur and only lasts 2 months after which players go back to their club.”
In some ways making that pro wouldn’t be too different to NZ but minus super rugby i.e. a split season with amateur clubs in one half of the season and professional/semi-professional provincial rugby in the latter half.
You could always have the lower divisions of the campeonato staying largely amateur, analagous to the NZ heartland championship/ the old NPC 2nd and 3rd divisions where the likes of buller and Wairarapa bush play.
Alternatively some of the smaller provinces could field joint teams, although the distance involved even within argentina might be a problem.