What we do and don’t know about our Baggy Greens
Columnist By Brett McKay, 31 Jan 2012 Brett McKay is a Roar Expert
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- Australian Cricket, Border-Gavaskar series, Cricket, ICC Test rankings, Michael Clarke, Test cricket
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Ryan Harris celebrates as Australia look to smash India's batting yet again (AP Photo/Theron Kirkman)
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For a team that had seemingly hit (another) rock bottom after being beaten by New Zealand in Hobart in mid-December, the 4-0 series thumping of India was a pretty decent recovery.
Led by a sublime bowling effort from their pacemen, Australia were simply too good for India by whatever method of measurement you’d care to use.
The 4-0 series win has the Aussies very close to India’s third place on the ICC Test rankings, a place can become Australia’s with a series win in the West Indies.
That would feel about right, Australia ranked third, with England and South Africa quite obviously still leading the way.
So with the next assignment a three-Test tour of the Caribbean coming up soon, South Africa on next summer’s horizon, and a massive ten-Test home-and-away Ashes task a little bit further away again, what do we now know and still not know about the Australian cricket team?
What we know
Michael Clarke is a very good captain. For anyone that had watched him in charge of Australian ODI and Twenty20 sides in the past, this probably isn’t that big a surprise.
Clarke has always had a “good cricket brain”, and is certainly more proactive and adventurous than his predecessor and either of his Indian counterparts this summer.
Most impressively though, the captaincy is bringing out the best in his batting. He is probably batting more closely now to when he made his Test debut than at any other time in his career.
His shot selection is superb, his timing even better (especially for that half pull-half punch shot in front of square), and his footwork to spinners is now rivalling Mike Hussey’s as the best in the side.
If people are still finding fault in Michael Clarke now, then it surely can’t have anything to do with him as a player, and they’ll probably never be happy with him anyway.
The fast bowling stocks are looking as good as they have in the last twenty or so years. If you think back to those glory periods of twin 16-Test winning streaks, the key quicks of McGrath, Gillespie, and Lee were well backed up by the likes of Reiffel, Bichel, Kasprowicz, and Fleming.
The current fast bowling cartel is looking similarly impressive. Siddle, Hilfenhaus, Harris, Starc, and Pattinson are all proven performers, and the likes of Cummins and Copeland are still well in the mix.
Throw in some promising up-and-comers like Faulkner, Cutting and Coulter-Nile, and things are looking pretty rosy for the next five or so years.
Much as plenty of us – me included – thought it was and is time for the hard call to be made on Ricky Ponting and/or Mike Hussey, both have proved that there’s still some life in the old dogs just yet.
Both finished in the top four run-getters for the Test summer, and crucially, both have shown they’re still capable of making big scores when they count.
It might still be the right time for them to be replaced (if there’s options; more on that shortly), but while ever they’re in decent form like they are currently, they warrant ongoing selection.
Ed Cowan looks to be a good fit into the Australian side after just four Tests, and I was astonished to read colleague Luke Doherty’s suggestion last week that some people were calling for him to be dropped.
Anyone who’s read In the Firing Line would know that Cowan the perfectionist would be annoyed not to have converted starts, but he’s shown enough to be persevered with for a good while.
He’s also the perfect complement to David Warner at the top, and he’s already proven to be a more-than-useful bat-pad catcher behind that massive Alistair Cook grille.
What we don’t know
Brad Haddin’s place in the side remains in question. His ‘keeping in Adelaide was at its best for the series, but he’s still not returning anywhere near the runs we’ve come to expect from ‘keeper-batsmen.
No-one’s expecting him to be Gilchrist, but currently, he’s barely even Healy.
Tim Paine says his finger is recovering well but he won’t be rushing back (this time), and there’s plenty suggesting that Matthew Wade’s ‘keeping might not be quite ready for Test cricket. If either of those situations improve, Haddin will find himself in trouble.
The spin bowling equation still doesn’t pass the ‘public bus’ test. If a bus hit Nathan Lyon tomorrow, who’s Australia’s next best spinner? In fact, who are the next three best spinners? Points off if you said Hogg, MacGill, and Warne.
To his credit, Lyon is still going quite well despite having a lean start to the Indian series and he could really do some damage on the low, slow dustbowl decks in the Caribbean. As long as he stays away from buses.
The top three still seems a touch inconsistent, with too many situations of three-for-less-than-fifty this summer. Shaun Marsh’s horrendous series is certainly part of that problem, and I can’t see how he’ll need whites for the West Indies tour.
That said, whoever is in the top three needs to show more patience when required, and less panic when quick wickets fall.
With a batting coach who spent his entire Test career in the top three, you’d like to think the new guys in these crucial positions are getting the guidance they need, but the jury remains out.
Worryingly, the batting depth is nowhere near as strong as the bowling currently. If Ponting and Hussey did decide they’ve had enough, two ready-made replacements in Shane Watson and Usman Khawaja lie in waiting.
The big question though – the biggest worry for me – is that there’s no obvious stand-out middle order options behind them.
Despite averaging 2.83 for the Border-Gavaskar series, it could be possible that Shaun Marsh is still next in line, with the likes of Forrest, Smith, Cooper, and Bailey still toiling away in Shield cricket.
There are good signs, and a lot to like about the Australian team again, but for mine, the “rebuilding phase” isn’t truly showing results until that last point moves from the bottom section to the top.
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Follow Brett McKay on Twitter: @BMcSport
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January 31st 2012 @ 6:48am
Red Kev said | January 31st 2012 @ 6:48am | Report comment
Good summary.
Langer is a worry.
Mickey Arthur is honestly also a worry – he wants all three of Haddin, Hussey and Ponting for the back-to-back Ashes series.
Inverarity is another big worry – his selections are odd – Peter Forrest for ODI cricket, George Bailey as T20 captain, trotting out the “class is permanent” line about Shaun Marsh, dropping Steve Smith.
Despite posting it with tongue in cheek yesterday I genuinely do worry about the pro-WA bias of the selection panel and coaching team (Inverarity-Marsh-Arthur selecting and Arthur-Langer coaching).
Winning hides all sins though, unless someone (likely SA or Eng) can roll us the “we did it this way and it worked” defense is impregnable.
January 31st 2012 @ 8:35am
Brett McKay said | January 31st 2012 @ 8:35am | Report comment
Hi Kev, I’m still happy to give Arthur some time yet, I don’t think he’s really had much of a chance to put his stamp on the team yet. The thing with Langer though is that it’s not clear what he has done with the batsmen, at least not in the same way how we can clearly see McDermott has the bowlers all bowling fuller than they did.
And that’s classic selector-talk from Invers – when they get the job they get given a handbook with the same messages that have been in use since Jesus was CoS for Nazereth CC. “Class is permanent”, “This represents a big opportunity for..”, “He hasn’t been playing as well as he would’ve liked”, they’re all in there.
As for your pro-WA bias, I don’t know that it’s any different to perceived pro-NSW bias, or any pro-Qld bias when Buchanan was coach. The WA players that have been picked are decent players anyway, it would certainly have been worrying if blokes like Ronchi and Beer were being picked..
January 31st 2012 @ 8:37am
Red Kev said | January 31st 2012 @ 8:37am | Report comment
Yeah Mitchell Johnson’s potential comeback is the real test case for WA bias in my opinion.
January 31st 2012 @ 8:48am
Brett McKay said | January 31st 2012 @ 8:48am | Report comment
but again, Johnson was an Australian player before he was a WA player. He still wouldn’t have played many more than half a dozen games for WA in two seasons. When he does regain his fitness and is back playing (which will be next summer) who knows how far down the pecking order he might’ve slipped? He might not even be the best bowler in WA by then..
January 31st 2012 @ 11:48am
Disco said | January 31st 2012 @ 11:48am | Report comment
Sure is. My money’s certainly on a recall for the tattooed spray-gun.
January 31st 2012 @ 9:46pm
lolly said | January 31st 2012 @ 9:46pm | Report comment
Does Mickey Arthur really have that strong a WA bias? He was only there for one season. It is a bit weird that there are so many WA ex-players involved but so far that hasn’t helped Nathan Coulter-Nile one bit and Mitch Marsh would get picked by just about every selector going anyway even if they all came from Woolongong..
I don’t think that it’s the make-up of the panel that affects how many WA players are picked. I’m a WA fan and I genuinely feel that WA players have been looked upon reasonably kindly by most selectors since I’ve followed cricket.
I think Invers and the others are doing a good job so far. Actually stating why players are not included is a big step forward. None of them are going to get everything perfectly spot on.
February 1st 2012 @ 6:39am
Red Kev said | February 1st 2012 @ 6:39am | Report comment
My problem with Mitch Marsh is that he was picked for the squad to play the first three games … then released from the first two so he could play for WA against Qld. Why pick him? Why release only one player? Why release one of WAs best at the same time as you deny Qld the Shield Season’s top scorer in Forrest? The match is after all a top of the Shield table clash.
Bias shows up in little things they can get away with, not massive absurd things (like selecting Coulter-Nile for the national team).
January 31st 2012 @ 8:19am
Chris said | January 31st 2012 @ 8:19am | Report comment
“With a batting coach who spent his entire Test career in the top three, you’d like to think the new guys in these crucial positions are getting the guidance they need, but the jury remains out.”
Brett, I think the jury is in and the verdict has been delivered as far as Justin Langer goes. My real worry is that his “guidance” seems to have been disastrous for the younger inexperienced batsmen – Hughes, Marsh and Khawaja have all come and gone under Langer’s watch. And all three have left with the technique (and arguably their mindset) at a worse level than when they entered the Test team. And while Warner looks completely comfortable agains the quicks he seemed all at sea once he came up against a halfway decent spinner.
Overall I agree with your article – captaincy is great, bowling is fantastic and may (will?) get even better over the next couple of years. And the wicketkeeping spot seems to be covered as well. The only worry is the batting… and the batting coaching.
January 31st 2012 @ 8:36am
Brett McKay said | January 31st 2012 @ 8:36am | Report comment
G’Day Chris, as I’ve mentioned to Kev above, I’m yet to see what Langer has got the batsmen doing differently, hence the polite wording about the status of the jury…
January 31st 2012 @ 9:38am
Ryan O'Connell said | January 31st 2012 @ 9:38am | Report comment
Brett, I’ve mentioned it before, but my sources tell me Langer is little more than a motivational voice within the changeroom.
When Ponting was falling across his stumps and getting out LBW far too often, he went away and worked with Victorian coach Greg Shippherd to right his wrongs.
The fact he didn’t go to the Australian batting coach speaks volumes, does it not?
PS: Was your ‘polite wording’ because you’re on the books at Cricket Australia? Conflict of interest, Brett?
January 31st 2012 @ 9:48am
Brett McKay said | January 31st 2012 @ 9:48am | Report comment
that all finished after Adelaide mate! And it’s consistent with how I’ve raised the question of Langer’s results here in the past anyway. And nothing you say there surprises me..
January 31st 2012 @ 2:33pm
Dubble Bubble said | January 31st 2012 @ 2:33pm | Report comment
”The fact he didn’t go to the Australian batting coach speaks volumes, does it not?”. Good point. Ponting din’t think Langer could help him. Says it all really.
January 31st 2012 @ 4:48pm
The Bush said | January 31st 2012 @ 4:48pm | Report comment
What are Langer’s credentials anyway?
Ponting was/is twice the batsmen that Langer was – unless Langer’s gone away and got a bunch of coaching diplomas etc, what is he bringing to the table other than his experience?
February 1st 2012 @ 7:11am
Disco said | February 1st 2012 @ 7:11am | Report comment
Love of the Baggy Green.
January 31st 2012 @ 11:51am
Disco said | January 31st 2012 @ 11:51am | Report comment
The batting on show during the five Ashes Tests demonstrated that Langer wasn’t doing a good job. Uber-patriotic cheerleading’s his thing.
January 31st 2012 @ 8:49am
sheek said | January 31st 2012 @ 8:49am | Report comment
Good morning Brett,
Having followed sport for about 45 years, I’ve come to realise that nothing stays the same for too long. There are continuous individual personnel adjustments required by form fluctuations, injuries, & in the good old days, occasional unavailabilities & premature retirements.
Even in a successful team, there will be a core of players who are selected from test to test, while perhaps 2-3 positions will continue to be contested form test to test, & series to series.
We all have our ready made reference points, & for me that is the period of Ian Chappell’s captaincy 1971-75. Including the series against the Rest of the World in 1971/72, Chappell had 30 different players under his command in 8 series, plus the one-off last test against England in 1970/71 when he began his captaincy.
31 players (including Chappell) represents nearly 3 cricket teams. That’s a high turnover in just 5 years.
The only other player to appear in all 35 matches under Chappell’s captaincy (apart from himself), was keeper Rod Marsh. Greg Chappell appeared 33 times, & Doug Walters 31.
In the 20s were Dennis Lillee 24, Keith Stackpole 22, Max Walker 21, Ian Redpath 20, Ross Edwards 20, Ashley Mallett 20 & Kerry O’Keeffe 20, rounding out a convenient first XI. The only other two players to reach double figures during this time were Terry Jenner 11 & Jeff Thomson 10.
Like Chappelli, Clarke is skipper of a team on the rise, of which he has had some input into their success. I suspect, also like Chappelli, there will be a lot of changes in the teams captained by Clarke during his tenure.
Ponting, Hussey & Haddin will all soon be gone, the only question being when. The fast bowlers will come & go depending on injury, competition & form. Watson will be in & out also because he is injury-prone. At least one batting position will probably be continually up for grabs.
And a long term permanent spinner remains elusive. So I would expect many players to pass through Clarke’s tenure. He will enjoy success, perhaps great success, but the permanency we experienced in the 2000s would probably be the exception rather than the rule.
For much of the early to mid 2000s, we expected to see the following lineup – Hayden, Langer, Ponting, Martyn, Clarke/Waugh, Hussey/Symonds, Gilchrist, Warne, Lee, Gillespie/Kasprowicz, McGrath. Even so, one batting & one bowling position was usually contested.
But it seems we live in a world when we demand continuous change. We’re happy for the status quo to exist for a minute, then we’re bored, & demand change again immediately…..!
January 31st 2012 @ 9:12am
Brett McKay said | January 31st 2012 @ 9:12am | Report comment
Sheek, there’s already been a higher turnover post Warne/McGrath than what occurred before that, so you’re certainly right.
Brad Haddin won Baggy Green no.400 on the 2008 Caribbean tour, after Gilchrist retired. Now, to go back 25 players, you need to go back something like 10 years to when Gavin Robertson won no.375 in India in 1998. Go forward from Haddin, and Mitchell Starc won no.425 in Brisbane this summer.
So 375-400 took just over ten years, but 400-425 (we’re up to 427 with Ed Cowan) took only four years..
January 31st 2012 @ 9:39am
Rickety Knees said | January 31st 2012 @ 9:39am | Report comment
G’day Sheek – as per usual your knowledge on the subject of cricket is unsurpassed. Mate, I guess Cricket is no different to Rugby – you need to have a 4-5 world class players to be a champion team. It is those world class players that form the core and the other positions see a steady stream of personnel move through them. It is when a team loses it’s champions ie ChappellG/Marsh/Lillee or Warne/McGrath/Gilchrist that a team goes into decline. Who are Australia’s world class players at the moment Ponting/Clarke/Hussey – with 2 of 3 due for retirement.
Let’s not get too excited about this team just yet – until Clarke surrounds himself with at least 3 players who can consistantly deliver world class performances. And in Australia’s case, from a scoring runners perspective – right now the world class batsman and potential batsman’s cupboard is bare. With this in mind how Hughes and Kwahaja have been managed/mismanaged needs to be reviewed.
January 31st 2012 @ 10:15am
sheek said | January 31st 2012 @ 10:15am | Report comment
Thanks Rickety,
Yeah, when you look at Chappelli’s era, he & his brother Greg, Marsh, Walters & Lillee (barring his injury lay-off) were the core of the team.
Greg Chappell & Lillee are two of our best ever, often selected in all-time Aussie XIs. Walters & Marsh are right up there also. While Ian Chappell’s batting average is a tad low, he was highly respected as a batsman all the same, & was a wonderful leader of men. And perhaps only Bobby Simpson was a better first slipper.
The dictum of a great team having a core of 4, or 5, or 6 great players, runs true in every sport. For the Wallabies to rise again, their team will need to be built around a core of 4-5-6 great players.
January 31st 2012 @ 3:16pm
WoobliesFan said | January 31st 2012 @ 3:16pm | Report comment
“Hughes and Kwahaja have been managed/mismanaged needs to be reviewed.”
One word – Langer.
January 31st 2012 @ 10:09am
sheek said | January 31st 2012 @ 10:09am | Report comment
Thanks Brett, for those stats.
I can quote facts & figures from the 70s off my head. I had plenty of time to savour things back then & doodle away.
These days I have to google what happened last week, let alone last year…..!!!
January 31st 2012 @ 10:45am
sheek said | January 31st 2012 @ 10:45am | Report comment
Addendum,
For those who care – there were actually 35 players who appeared during Ian Chappell’s reign as captain 1971-5. Not the 31 previously named. I missed 4 of them!
And that doesn’t include backup keeper Brian Taber, who went to England 1972 without plying a test.
So that’s a turnover of better than 3 teams over 5 seasons.
January 31st 2012 @ 5:10pm
JohnB said | January 31st 2012 @ 5:10pm | Report comment
Mostly successful seasons to, at least after the Rest of the World loss in 71/2.
January 31st 2012 @ 4:58pm
The Bush said | January 31st 2012 @ 4:58pm | Report comment
“And a long term permanent spinner remains elusive.”
Just for conversations sake, Nathan Lyon has now played ten (10) Tests, so I would say that is enough to officially judge him;
Average: 28.68
Wickets: 29
Best Bowling: 5/34
For mine, those aren’t the worst statistics in the world. He ultimately provded very useful in Adelaide.
So, my question is – at what point is a spinner going to be considered good enough to be our “permanent” spinner?
January 31st 2012 @ 5:19pm
Gucci said | January 31st 2012 @ 5:19pm | Report comment
That’s a good point. I also throw the question out there, what sort of spinner are we looking for at the moment? Whilst on one hand clearly we don’t want someone with say Bryce McGain’s figures, what do we really need? If we play 3 fast bowlers + 1 spinner + Watson, and if all the pace bowlers bowl consistent line and length and also take wickets (which they all seem to be doing at the moment), we don’t actually need a spinner to always bowl attacking lines aiming for wickets do we? If our quicks can get inroads with the new ball, and say we’re 60 overs into an innings with the opposition 5 down, it wouldn’t be such a bad plan to have a containing spinner at one end and have say Mike Hussey at the other end – Hussey will probably get a wicket!
February 1st 2012 @ 12:02am
MrKistic said | February 1st 2012 @ 12:02am | Report comment
Yep, and 3 of those were against the team least likely to be bothered by spin bowling.
January 31st 2012 @ 9:03am
sledgeross said | January 31st 2012 @ 9:03am | Report comment
Nice work Brett. A couple of points if I may.
Shaun Marsh should never have been given a sniff of a baggy green. The bloke is nudging 30 and has a modest first class record for a batsmen who plys his trade at the top of the order. I will argue until Im blue in the face that selectors must pick batsmen who at least average 40 in 1st class cricket. Despite people bagging Phil Hughes technique, he still averages 48 in first class cricket. Likewise, Khawaja averages 45. Compare that to the likes of Marsh (37) and Ferguson (35). A decent first class average but mediocre Test average at the begining of your career at least suggests that there is some potential to improve. I just dont see that with Marsh.
Spin bowling. Im a fan of Lyon, he may not turn it a great deal, but has good loop and drift, and bowls to his strengths. To a degree we havent seen how effective he can be in Australia because our quicks have been so dominant. As you mentioned, our fast bowling battery seems quite strong, but we really need to develop a spin bowler. Being a traditionalist, I prefer an aggressive wrist spinner rather than a finger spinner, cos that always been the Aussie way.
Justin Langer was tarred by that “brown nosed gnome” (unfairly?) quip during his career. Judging by his “impact” on the young batsmen, hes tell telling the right people what they want to hear, but without results. I think with batsmen Chappelli has it right, these blokes know how to bat, dont overcomplicate things.
January 31st 2012 @ 9:20am
Brett McKay said | January 31st 2012 @ 9:20am | Report comment
Sledgie, I don’t disagree with your theory in principle, but I don’t think we can judge guys just on state numbers any more. Earlier in the season during a M.Wade-T.Paine discussion, I pointed out that though Paine’s FC ave is below 40 (from memory) it’s actually jumped significantly since he first played for Australia. Marsh would be in the same boat, yes, his FC ave might still be below 40 overall, but what is it since he made his Australian debut?
My point in all this is that sometimes, these young guys need to come into the “system” in order to reach their true potential. So in Marsh’s case, he’d already made ODI hundreds and had shown that current form aside, he is a pretty decent batsman. Of all the bats around the coutnry around his age, Marsh would still comfortably hold his own. And I’ve got no doubt at all he’ll be back in the Test side at some point, maybe even by next Australian summer..
January 31st 2012 @ 9:48am
formeropenside said | January 31st 2012 @ 9:48am | Report comment
Dont forget M.Clarke had a first class average of 35 when first parachuted into the Australian team. I still think he was promoted too early.
January 31st 2012 @ 10:13am
Brett McKay said | January 31st 2012 @ 10:13am | Report comment
he’s another classic example of thriving within the system, FOS. He’d played ODIs for a few years prior to making his Test debut too..
January 31st 2012 @ 10:13am
Jason said | January 31st 2012 @ 10:13am | Report comment
A series winning 154 on debut suggests it was a pretty good decision at the time.
January 31st 2012 @ 10:17am
sheek said | January 31st 2012 @ 10:17am | Report comment
Fossie,
It’s immaterial now isn’t it? Clarke has gone from strength to strength.
January 31st 2012 @ 10:55am
Justin said | January 31st 2012 @ 10:55am | Report comment
And how old was Clarke and how old is Marsh – you are comparing apples to oranges. Marsh has 6 FC 100s to his name in 10 years of cricket.
The bloke is OVERRATED!
January 31st 2012 @ 5:09pm
JohnB said | January 31st 2012 @ 5:09pm | Report comment
He did get big scores the first 2 tests he played, suggesting perhaps that (like Hussey) he might have improved over his career and then been the man for the job. At the very least it suggests he had something going for him. Given the one day runs he’d made in the sub-continent, and the lack of performance by anyone much else, it was hardly an unreasonable selection at the time. He’s used up his credit now though I think.
February 1st 2012 @ 8:55am
Justin said | February 1st 2012 @ 8:55am | Report comment
Hussey had been scoring tons of runs in Shield and county cricket for years. Marsh never has.
January 31st 2012 @ 8:54pm
AndyMack said | January 31st 2012 @ 8:54pm | Report comment
No need to argue with me until you are blue in the face Sledge, I agree 100%.
Years of FC cricket will show what type of player you are. Marsh is not good enough. It is OK to come into the Test team with a bit of current form under your belt and make runs (I watched that 100 on debut, batted well on a very nice batting pitch), its another thing to make runs consistently over a test career against the world best bowlers. His FC records indicates he wont be able to do the latter….
January 31st 2012 @ 9:23am
langou said | January 31st 2012 @ 9:23am | Report comment
Can we now give New Zealand a bit of credit for the way they played. Not a positive word about their performance was to be found in the media(including this site) but surely now having seen how easily the Indians folded we can also acknowledge how well the Kiwis played. I dare say the Indian superstar batsman could’ve learnt a thing or two watching Brownlie bat.
January 31st 2012 @ 9:35am
Brett McKay said | January 31st 2012 @ 9:35am | Report comment
Langou, I love a good generalistation as much as the next guy, but there were plenty of articles praising New Zealand after the Hobart win, both on The Roar and in the cricket media in general. There’s no question the Black Caps played well in Hobart, as they did last weekend in trouncing Zimbabwe by an innings plus. Brownlie, Bracewell, Williamson are going to form the core of that side for years to come..
January 31st 2012 @ 11:51am
Chris said | January 31st 2012 @ 11:51am | Report comment
And I wonder whether it’s not that NZ or Australia are particularly good, but that India were really, really bad.
January 31st 2012 @ 9:40am
sledgeross said | January 31st 2012 @ 9:40am | Report comment
I see your point mate, but the fact is that Marsh is 28 and a top 3 batsman. Tim Paine is a keeper so I think its acceptable to pick a young keeper batsman on potential (he has a 200 in FC cricket). Paine only averages a few runs more anyway (34 as opposed to 30). I mean, Peter Nevill would be next in line if we went purely off stats (averages a tick below 50).
Marsh isnt like a Brad Hodge, or a Mike Hussey, or even a Martin Love or Stuart Law. These blokes plundered runs consistently in shield and county cricket for years. Shaun Marsh has had one good season. I dont think we will see him in the Baggy Green again. I think Nic Maddinson should be next cab off the rank for a long term position provided he can finish this Shield season strongly, and back it up again next year.
Your idea about a system is a good one, and I think thats what they are doing with Forrest. Not quite sure its worked with Marsh though. I do think Marsh is a decent player, but I think most top 5 bats in any state team could produce similar stats to him.
January 31st 2012 @ 10:07am
Brett McKay said | January 31st 2012 @ 10:07am | Report comment
sure, but the comparison is the same: I’m quite sure without being able to find then readily (CricInfo doesn’t seem to let you query FC stats) that since Marsh made his ODI debut in 2008, that his FC figure would be up on his overall career.
And if that’s the case, then Marsh has become a better batsman since getting into the Australian system. The same’s happened for Khawaja and Warner more recently, they’re both much more refined batsmen since playing for Australia and Australia A (Khawaja’s current situation doesn’t have a lot to do with runs or technique, he’s just copped the rough end of the selection pineapple)..
January 31st 2012 @ 10:26am
Jason said | January 31st 2012 @ 10:26am | Report comment
Marsh scored 1058 first class runs (all in SS) at 48.09 between his OD and Test debuts.
January 31st 2012 @ 10:31am
Brett McKay said | January 31st 2012 @ 10:31am | Report comment
cheers Jason, I’ll rest my case right there..
(where did you find these, by the way??)
January 31st 2012 @ 10:40am
Jason said | January 31st 2012 @ 10:40am | Report comment
Cricketarchive.co.uk allows you to search first class matches for each player.
January 31st 2012 @ 10:45am
Brett McKay said | January 31st 2012 @ 10:45am | Report comment
ah cool, that’s one for the favourites..
January 31st 2012 @ 11:16am
sheek said | January 31st 2012 @ 11:16am | Report comment
Brett/Jason,
For what it’s worth, I actually prefer ‘cricketachive’ to ‘crininfo’ for most of my researching…..
January 31st 2012 @ 11:23am
Jason said | January 31st 2012 @ 11:23am | Report comment
The main problem with cricketarchive is that it is painfully slow.
Also, cricinfo has a far better stats tool for tests.
January 31st 2012 @ 11:55am
Chris said | January 31st 2012 @ 11:55am | Report comment
I’m not sure that those stats actually prove what you’re trying to say Brett. Surely this is just a reflection that most batsmen hit their top form in their late 20s? Which just thappened to coincide with Marsh’s international selection…
January 31st 2012 @ 12:03pm
Brett McKay said | January 31st 2012 @ 12:03pm | Report comment
It’d be both Chris, for sure. My point is just about how guys naturally “come back a better player” whenever they play up a grade/level/class, and applies to pretty much every sport.
So when these guys go into an get coached within the Australian setup, and are surrounded by the best players in the country, all of that “betterness” rubs off onto them and how they prepare and play and so on.
Having played at the higher level, they then find playing and dominating at the previous level some much more easier..
January 31st 2012 @ 1:26pm
Chris said | January 31st 2012 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
Brett I think that’s theoretically true, except that most people would argue that Hughes, Khawaja and Marsh have all gone backwards since their time in the Australian team. Which in light of your theory about ‘playing up is good’ would suggest there is something seriously wrong with the batting coaching at the Australian Test level.
January 31st 2012 @ 1:35pm
Brett McKay said | January 31st 2012 @ 1:35pm | Report comment
Hughes certainly, I’ll give you that and did make mention of that down below. I don’t think Khawaja and Marsh have gone backwards though, I think they’re both clearly better batsmen since playing for Australia. Obviously, this becomes subjective, and Marsh is also in horendous form, but he’s not a bad batsman..
January 31st 2012 @ 10:57am
Justin said | January 31st 2012 @ 10:57am | Report comment
Well its hardly monster numbers and bettered by Hughes, UK etc in numerous years.
January 31st 2012 @ 11:08am
Brett McKay said | January 31st 2012 @ 11:08am | Report comment
Justin there’s nothing wrong with a FC ave nearing 50..
January 31st 2012 @ 12:46pm
Justin said | January 31st 2012 @ 12:46pm | Report comment
Agree Brett but as I was poorly alluding to one decent season does not mean Test success. Look at his career and show me how he only had 6 FC tons to his name?
January 31st 2012 @ 1:32pm
Brett McKay said | January 31st 2012 @ 1:32pm | Report comment
what exactly would that prove Justin (and how can I show you how or why he only has 6 FC centuries anyway)??
January 31st 2012 @ 1:44pm
Justin said | January 31st 2012 @ 1:44pm | Report comment
Brett a bloke who is closing in on 29 with 7 FC 100s (yes he scored a Test one in Sri Lanka, low decks are his thing but hey he played well)…. that says to me he isnt up to it. Throw in an ave of 37.5 and a strike rate below 50 and what do you come up with?
January 31st 2012 @ 2:28pm
Brett McKay said | January 31st 2012 @ 2:28pm | Report comment
Justin, it’s pretty clear you don’t rate Marsh, and that’s fine, but what are you wanting me to say here?? I’m not here to defend him, I’ve said numerous times that he’s no longer warranting inclusion. But by the same token, I absolutely stand by my suggestions that he’s become a better batsman since coming into the Australian team..
January 31st 2012 @ 2:35pm
Chaos said | January 31st 2012 @ 2:35pm | Report comment
Brett and Justin,
Can someone do the FC stats for Gilly before he went to the test team?
His NSW form was poor and I’m sure he didn’t have more then ten first class tonnes to his name before he played tests.
However his ODI did help launch him into the team. I remember his fielding without the gloves when playing along side healy. Awful.
January 31st 2012 @ 2:44pm
Jason said | January 31st 2012 @ 2:44pm | Report comment
Gilly up until his test debut
M Inn NO Runs HS Ave 50 100
72 108 19 3516 203* 39.50 12 9
January 31st 2012 @ 11:09am
Jason said | January 31st 2012 @ 11:09am | Report comment
And Hughes and UK each got starts ahead of Marsh in the first test against SL. Marsh only came in when Ponting returned home for the birth of his kid.
January 31st 2012 @ 10:18am
rl said | January 31st 2012 @ 10:18am | Report comment
I’m with you sledgeross – when you see Marsh get parachuted in, you feel for the likes of Hodge, Love & Law who put together consistent years of run getting, and barely got a look-in (obviously they had a lot more competition in front of them). Maybe the advent of T20 whas changed the notion that a player needs to get some solid runs under their belt before getting elevated. I’m no Hughes fan, but I admire his attitude to now dedicate himself to the long form of the game.
In short, the top 3 are a massive worry due to inconsistency, and the next 3 are a massive worry because soon the veterans may be gone.
January 31st 2012 @ 11:42pm
TJ said | January 31st 2012 @ 11:42pm | Report comment
If Burns and Chris Lynn finish the season off well they deserve to be ahead of Maddinson in the queue, at least in the longer form of the game. Maddinson had a great BBL but has been woeful in first class cricket this year. Lynn is a year ahead of Maddinson in terms of FC cricket, and has done everything right including scoring big runs in big matches. Only injuries have been an issue. Unfortunately they don’t get the press and ‘next superstar’ tag that Maddinson receives.
January 31st 2012 @ 10:36am
LT said | January 31st 2012 @ 10:36am | Report comment
So am confused as to what all this means for Khawaja… Is he still in selectors’ sights? Seems from Invers’ comments yesterday that they’re looking for players who are succssful aross three formats. Maybe am reading it wrong but am a bit worried they’re pushing everyone ahead of him. Don’t really hear them talk him up at all (in fact never). Wish more journos would demand some answers from selectors re Khawaja’s treatment vs Marsh’s treatment.
January 31st 2012 @ 10:42am
Brett McKay said | January 31st 2012 @ 10:42am | Report comment
LT, he’ll go to the West Indies without question. Watson is still something of an unknown quanitity in terms of his injury no-one seems to know when he’ll be back, and so Khawaja is probably next in line right at this point..
January 31st 2012 @ 10:51am
Red Kev said | January 31st 2012 @ 10:51am | Report comment
Provided he maintains his Shield Average above 50 for this season (currently 62.50 after only one match) he’ll go to the West Indies probably bracketed with Shane Watson in the lineup. A good hundred in a Ryobi Cup match wouldn’t hurt either.
To be honest all he has to do is pile on runs – Marsh (avg.59) is the only guy who’s last two seasons come close to Khawaja’s (avg.62) (and Marsh would need 4 centuries in the remaining 4 shield matches in my estimation to convince people he should be retained for the tests after that India series), Forrest and Christian have run into some form this year and are getting a taste, but half a season does not make them ready for tests.
January 31st 2012 @ 11:58am
Disco said | January 31st 2012 @ 11:58am | Report comment
Arthur never mentions him. Khawaja’s on the outer when he should be a first-choice Test player. I suspect the selectors are looking for an excuse to continue his absence (perhaps Marsh scoring a 7th first-class ton will do the trick). I hope Khawaja gets a couple of tons for NSW this season to further enhance his record.
January 31st 2012 @ 10:39am
Walt said | January 31st 2012 @ 10:39am | Report comment
One thing that has me scratching my head is where Steve Smith is at. And why?
January 31st 2012 @ 10:49am
Brett McKay said | January 31st 2012 @ 10:49am | Report comment
Walt, I’d guess that he’s about no.15 on the list of both the T20 and ODI side – close enough to be considered unlucky, but far enough away to not make a squad. John Inverarity mentioned in the ODI squad announcement that they wanted more runs and wickets from Smith, which is fine, but I also suspect his 8+ rpo economy in the BBL hasn’t helped him..
Edit: just found these quotes in The Oz re Smith..
NSW’s Steve Smith was one of the top ranked players in the country when contracts were released six months ago because he played all forms but he has been excluded from the Test, T20 and now ODI squads.
Arthur said the all-rounder had to make a compelling case for himself. “We just want Steve Smith to keep banging the door down,” he said. “Steve’s an incredibly talented cricketer, there’s no doubt about that.
“We just want to see him to perform consistently like any other player in our structure . . . and make it impossible for us to leave him out.
“We just want to see him getting better in all forms. He’s a terrific cricketer. He brings all three forms to the party. We want to get him back but again he’s got to give us that right ammunition.”
January 31st 2012 @ 10:56am
Jason said | January 31st 2012 @ 10:56am | Report comment
More than any other form of the game, the number of runs in T20 is irrelevant. It is the speed that they are scored which is ultimately the most important.
Smith’s fielding is probably worth 5 – 10 runs a game alone.
January 31st 2012 @ 12:03pm
Disco said | January 31st 2012 @ 12:03pm | Report comment
“Want to see him to perform consistently like any other player in our structure.”
What like Brad ‘Ashes 2013′ Haddin for instance?
As if all players are treated equally…
January 31st 2012 @ 12:32pm
Brett McKay said | January 31st 2012 @ 12:32pm | Report comment
Disco, from what I suspect was the same interview as the Smith comments:
Coach and selector Mickey Arthur said he still had faith in the keeper, who is also vice-captain in the absence of the injured Shane Watson.
“I have had a good chat to Brad. Brad knows exactly where he stands, if Brad wants to play on, he feels he has a lot to contribute and so do I, but like any other player, players need to give us ammunition to keep picking them,” he said.
Arthur said the selectors were trying to increase the number of experienced players.
“One of my briefs, and the selection panel’s briefs, is to get a pool of players. We need to increase the depth, especially in the batting department, we think,” he said.
“In the next two years or three years … Hussey and Ponting aren’t going to be around for a huge amount of time. We need to have contingency plans in place.
“We need to see some players under pressure. There’s no doubt about that, same in the wicketkeeping department, we need to develop two keepers.
“It is probably our intention to take two wicketkeepers to the West Indies, so we need to see who the next best is, hence Matty Wade, who has been fantastic in domestic cricket, gets an opportunity.”
(http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/sport/australias-cricket-selectors-want-two-keepers-for-windies-tour/story-e6frg7mf-1226257710649)
January 31st 2012 @ 11:36pm
TJ said | January 31st 2012 @ 11:36pm | Report comment
Though the selection comments do seem odd, as well as some selections – Forrest and Bailey for the reasons that were explained, my view is that they got it right on Steve Smith. There was much press last season talking him up, but both statistically and technically he is not at international level, bar his excellent fielding. His bowling has actually gone downhill since playing for Australia. His first class average is +50 now if I’m correct. And technically with his batting, from what we saw in the Ashes, is less sound that Phil Hughes. At least Hughes has statistics to back his case and Khawaja has both, even though they failed to deliver and must be judged on that. He is ONE of the worst cricketers to wear a baggy green in my time of watching test cricket. Amazingly Steve Smith’s career to date is almost identical to Cameron White’s. Potential as a leg-spinning genuine batsman all-rounder identified early. Their bowling wasn’t ready when they played test cricket and as a result detoriated post test cricket, so much so they bowl less. Which in turn confused their batting. Both were and are excellent fieldsmen and Steve Smith just captained his first winning side much like a young Cameron White did in all forms of the game at domestic level.
January 31st 2012 @ 10:55am
Matt F said | January 31st 2012 @ 10:55am | Report comment
I’m fairly happy with where we’re at right now. As you’ve said there is plenty to work on but we’ve improved a lot since last summer (though that was never going to be difficult) and I’d actually be a little bit worried if there weren’t any issues.
It’s been fantastic to see the young fast bowlers that we’ve heard so much about come on this summer, and there’s still more who haven’t had a chance yet. I’m pleased that you mentioned Cutting. He’s really slipped off the radar lately, obviously due to injury. Given how the quicks have gone this summer his injury could not have been timed any worse.v I have no idea how we’ll fit them all in but it will be great to watch.
The improvement in the fast bowling shows the importance of having a good coach. Given the long-term concerns over our batting questions should, and are, still being asked about Langer. From all reports, he has helped out Warner enormously, but that was more related to the mental aspect of batting which was always JL’s strong suit. His biggest weakness as a coach seems to be technical coaching which is the most important aspect.
The battings still a big concern. Is Cowan really a test player? he’s looked solid so far, and deserves a spot against the WIndies but the juries still out. Marsh has to go and find some form. Watson will come in for him assuming he’s fit. If not then you;d imagine it would be Khawaja. You’re right that after those few there’s not too many other batsmen that look test standard right now.
I’ve been very impressed with Lyon. Adelaide was the only track which has been favourable for spin since probably the SL tour so he’s done very well on pitches designed not to assist him at all. He ended up averaging 41 with the ball against India, which isn’t bad at all given the opposition and the pitch types. For what it’s worth Warne’s career average against India (admittedly against much more competent teams then this Indian side) was 47. Like the batting, the spin depth is a concern, however Hauritz and O’Keefe, who are probably the next best two in the country, have been injured for most of the summer. It will be interesting to see how they do in the second half of the Shield season.
January 31st 2012 @ 12:14pm
Brett McKay said | January 31st 2012 @ 12:14pm | Report comment
sorry Matt, I was going to reply to your points earlier..
Spinners I reckon we’re on the same page.
I think Cowan is a Test player, I think you could see the way he batted in Adelaide was an off-shoot of the confidence he got from batting at length in Perth. And certainly his annoyance on getting out so early on the best batting track in Australia was evident too. I think the biggest issue for him will be that there now no more Tests until April, and then no more until South Africa arrive in November. I wonder if he’s considering a County stint?
Cutting might be back for Qld shortly, I think, and that’ll be great. Once all fit, we could have a case of the current 4 quicks + the 2 injured young punks + Johnson + the fringe players like Cutting, Faulkner, Hazelwood, Coulter-Nile, etc all fighting for the 3 spots. 10 or 11 into 3 clearly doesn’t go, but gee it’s a wonderful problem to have..
January 31st 2012 @ 11:34am
sledgeross said | January 31st 2012 @ 11:34am | Report comment
Still not convinced Brettles, cos that comparison doesnt take into account the fact Hughes and Ussie havent played one dayers. Also, Marsh was picked in the only 2 season here he showed any kind of consistency. Fact is that due to his name he was in the consciousness of teh selectors when perhaps he shouldnt have been.
Fiddling around with teh stats over a 18month period (provided the person is in decent form) would boost anyones average.
January 31st 2012 @ 11:51am
Brett McKay said | January 31st 2012 @ 11:51am | Report comment
no true, but I’d apply to any guy that plays for the Australia or Australia A in one form or another (once they’re in “the system”, what form they play doesn’t really matter). So Hughes and Khawaja’s FC ave would be higher than before their Test debuts, for eg.
Actually, just thinking about it, Hughes might be the exception to the rule, judging by how his Test ave nose-dived…
January 31st 2012 @ 1:22pm
Duncan said | January 31st 2012 @ 1:22pm | Report comment
Ok, below are the FC details for Marsh since 2001 by season (from http://cricketarchive.co.uk/Archive/Players/10/10020/f_Batting_by_Season.html).
Season Matches Inns NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 Ct
2000-01 (Australia) 3 5 1 102 46 25.50 0 0 2
2002-03 (Australia) 3 5 1 199 119 49.75 1 0 2
2003-04 (Australia) 5 10 1 146 47 16.22 0 0 3
2004-05 (Australia) 11 18 2 569 103* 35.56 2 1 14
2005-06 (Australia) 10 20 2 676 94 37.55 0 5 5
2006 (Australia) 1 2 1 7 6* 7.00 0 0 0
2006-07 (Australia) 6 11 0 226 50 20.54 0 1 4
2007-08 (Australia) 8 15 4 663 166* 60.27 1 5 8
2008-09 (Australia) 4 8 1 167 74* 23.85 0 1 2
2009-10 (Australia) 5 10 2 477 108* 59.62 1 4 6
2010-11 (Australia) 4 7 0 414 137 59.14 1 3 5
2011 (Sri Lanka) 3 4 0 252 141 63.00 1 1 0
2011-12 (South Africa) 2 4 1 174 73* 58.00 0 2 1
2011-12 (Australia) 4 6 0 17 11 2.83 0 0 4
I contend that there’s no way you could pick him on form and he’s injury prone. As I’ve previously noted on theroar he’s not played a full season of FC cricket in the past 5 years. When he did have full seasons he averaged approx 36 with only 2 centuries, and no more than as single century in a season since two in ’04-’05. And never more than 676 runs in a season.
In Shaun Marshes case (in my opinion), form appears to be very temporary (ephemeral even) and class non-existent.