Are Harry Kewell and Brett Emerton boosting A-League TV figures? (AAP Image/Joe Castro)
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“Turnout to prove case,” read the headline from The Mercury newspaper this week, referring to Tasmania hosting the A-League regional round between Melbourne Victory and Gold Coast United and whether the turnout would help justify a club representing the state in the competition.
This was, after all, the first A-League home and away match to be staged in Tassie – at Aurora Stadium, Launceston, potential home for Tasmania United FC, the name of the group pushing for the state’s inclusion in the A-League.
Their fan liaison and social media administrator, Charles Gregory, was quoted in The Mercury saying a crowd of 10,000 will “certainly remind the FFA to keep an eye on us”.
After all, Launceston previously hosted two pre-season matches that pulled crowds of 6307 and 8601. This clash would be a contest for premiership points involving Harry Kewell.
But only 5268 turned up. The 10,000 may have been too great a target (expecting one in every ten Launceston resident to turn up to a match without Tasmanian representation probably a tad optimistic), but the crowd was respectable considering the match, like most of the regional rounds, was scheduled midweek, when even big cities struggle to get fans in on a Wednesday night.
However, whether Tasmania has the population to sustain a club is a legitimate concern, considering the split between the state’s two biggest centres, Launceston and Hobart – two and a half hours drive between them.
Both have adequate stadiums, although while Hobart has the greater population, double that of Launceston, a Hobart-based A-League club will now go head-to-head with the city’s Big Bash League franchise, the Hurricanes. Wasn’t the lack of the sporting competition one of the major advantages of putting an A-League club in the state, helping to negate the small population concern?
According to Tasmania United, “Initially, the club plans to rotate home matches between the north and south of the state. In the north, Aurora Stadium is an obvious choice, having successfully hosted many national and international sporting events, including football.
In the south of the state, options continue to be assessed. North Hobart and Bellerive are obvious choices but the taskforce is considering a variety of short and longer term options.”
The problem here is the schism it creates; the potential division between the two and the lack of identity the club would have if it was forced to pick one over the other (hardly “Tasmania United”).
As the league saw in Townsville, which has a greater population than Launceston, any own goals are amplified when there is such a small population to try and attract a sustainable fan-base from.
There are other concerns. Key to any official bid (which the state government has not committed to) is marrying the Tasmania United taskforce with Football Federation Tasmania, which is yet to happen.
But is the Tasmanian grassroots strong and deep enough to sustain an A-League club, in terms of players, junior coaches and the like?
Remember, although there is no AFL club based in Tassie, Aussie Rules has a strong grassroots presence there, again quashing the idea that round ball football can have a monopoly of the state if it decides to move in with an A-League team.
Then there is money. Minister for Sport and Recreation Brian Wightman recently said he could not commit the $7.5 to 10 million investment needed to create and sustain a potential club over the first five years.
As evidenced by V8 Supercars’ public battle with the Tassie government to save the state’s event with funding for track upgrades at Symmons Plains Raceway in Launceston, the state’s economy is hardly flush with cash for sport.
And if the FFA is unable to find investors willing to back a western Sydney franchise, out of the game’s supposed heartland, what hope is there of a non-government investor for a club out of Tassie, in what would be the smallest market in the league?
Ultimately, proponents of Tasmania United point to the state’s lack of professional sporting teams – no clubs in the main football codes, thanks to the AFL’s continued snubbing, with only the Hurricanes in play.
But, crucially, they will clash in the same time of the year as Tasmania United, should it be based in Hobart.
The question, therefore, that needs to be asked is whether a market so small can sustain two professional sporting clubs going head-to-head in the key summer school holiday period. Advantage Launceston? But what about the smaller population? Again, that old schism remains.
Perhaps a franchise could have worked pre-Big Bash League, getting in before anyone else. But in the time since I last wrote about Tasmania and the A-League, which I was then in favour of, the league has failed to prove it can sustain clubs in chance markets.
Even Central Coast, with all their on-field success, have struggled for financial backing in a market that, in reality, is probably too small for the current A-League economic model.
This whole argument is a moot point, however. Further expansion of the A-League is on the back burner after the recent assessments of the league from the government and governing body, not to mention the continued question marks around the sustainability of Gold Coast United and following the demise of North Queensland Fury.
If it were to expand, then the FFA would also have to consider bigger centres such as Canberra and Wollongong, with previous histories of football clubs in the national competition. And let’s not forget the great, untapped western Sydney, if there is an investor out there.
Despite the football code vacuum that exists on the Apple Isle, there remain some question marks around Tassie and the A-League.
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February 2nd 2012 @ 7:37am
Whites said | February 2nd 2012 @ 7:37am | Report comment
No.
February 2nd 2012 @ 1:36pm
Realfootball said | February 2nd 2012 @ 1:36pm | Report comment
+1
end of story
February 2nd 2012 @ 7:54am
Redb said | February 2nd 2012 @ 7:54am | Report comment
Not a chance of it being sustainable.
The AFL has got it probably right with two teams part basing themselves in Tassie from 2012 in Hobart (Kangaroos) and Launceston (Hawks) respectively.
Sponsorship dollars and a sluggish economy with little new money holds the State back.
February 2nd 2012 @ 1:37pm
Realfootball said | February 2nd 2012 @ 1:37pm | Report comment
If the AFL won’t do it, no one will.
February 2nd 2012 @ 8:04am
Chuq said | February 2nd 2012 @ 8:04am | Report comment
A few points:
(1) I was at the game and I honestly expected the crowd announcement to be in excess of 7000. The stadium holds 20k and was 1/3 full. 4500 tickets were pre-sold and when I got there the wires for ticket sales were huge.
(2) it was a Wednesday night, so obviously you miss out on the Hobart contingent. I live in Hobart, had to leave work at 4pm, didn’t get home until 12.30am. Not everyone is able to do that. The pre-season matches were 1pm on a Sunday in comparison.
(3) it rained every day this week in Hobart, and the two days before and scheduled the two days after in Launceston. Storm clouds were rolling over the stadium but we were lucky!
(4) it was still the highest attended regional match, and double the usual Gold Coast home crowd.
Not excuses – just points to be aware of.
Pic (of crowd and weather)
https://twitter.com/chuqtas/status/164713316932001792
February 2nd 2012 @ 8:25am
Kasey said | February 2nd 2012 @ 8:25am | Report comment
The crowd was respectable and not a counter to a Tassie A-League teamIMO. In fact the community round is in my mind a valid concept, it just needs refining. For instance, nothing wrong per-se with Bathurst and Dunedin hosting games, but as towns with overly large uni Student populations, wouldn’t it make more sense to schedule games when the semester is in session? I think the FFA should be congratulated for having the guts to take the hit to the raw crowd number figuers in taking top flight games to regions who normally wouldn’t get them, but the primary problem I have with the community round is the effect it has on the pure crowd numbers of the competition, eg It bugs me now that those haterz that just look at the statistics to judge the succes or otherwise of the HAL will see that Adelaide United’s lowest home crowd was 2,363(the game in Bathurst was ytechnically an AU home game). discounting that game, United’s crowd average jumps from 9,417 to a much more respectable 10,200, above the magic 10k mark.
As for Tasmania. If I was Grand Poo-bah of Football(GPBoF), I would have a wish list of locations for HAL teams and based purely on potential, national footprint considerations and football history in this country I would have them ordered (by my gut instinct) as
West Sydney
Woolongong
Tasmania
Canberra, and
Auckland (if NZ ever left OFC for AFC)
Of course as GPBoF, I would place a moritorium on expansion for at least 2 yearsfrom now(2012) to allow the current 10 teams to consolidate their positions.
February 2nd 2012 @ 10:19am
Whites said | February 2nd 2012 @ 10:19am | Report comment
Please people. It’s Wollongong.
February 2nd 2012 @ 11:03am
Kasey said | February 2nd 2012 @ 11:03am | Report comment
so noted, apologies to any south coasters.
February 2nd 2012 @ 8:22am
Fussball ist unser leben said | February 2nd 2012 @ 8:22am | Report comment
Absolutely, Tasmania must be in a future expanded A-League 1 & A-League 2 competition that would, ideally, contain 14 teams each.
5.2k turned up to watch 2 teams that they have no connection to play a mid-week fixture suggests attendances of 8-10k would be possible on w/e. A crowd of 8-10k in the right stadium would certainly be sustainable. But, there’s no rush. A two tier National Football League – with promotion & relegation – should be a 10-year vision for the HAL.
February 2nd 2012 @ 9:39am
SportsFanMelb said | February 2nd 2012 @ 9:39am | Report comment
Fuss you are not seriously advocating that AUS has the following factors in its favour for 28 professional soccer teams across 2 divisions:
1. Money
2. Population
3. Geography
I think we need to move on from the idea of promotion/relegation in AUS, it will not happen in our lifetimes, and I am only in my 20′s!
There are far too many professional sports teams in the country as it is now, all competing with each other for fans (obviously there is a cross over) and money.
Also re Tasmania – just cant see them sustaining a professional football team full time of any code, they do not have the economy for this even if you ignore the fact that the TAS government has recently signed a $15M deal with Hawthorn to play games in Launceston for the next 4-5 years.
From an A-League perspective lets get the league consolidated with the current 10 teams and for any future expansion (at least 5 years away) look at locations that could actually sustain a team with local community support, and not have teams at the whim of a millionaire/billionaire.
February 2nd 2012 @ 9:48am
pete4 said | February 2nd 2012 @ 9:48am | Report comment
First step for the A-League will be get to 12 teams. Long term I think the FFA can look at the B-League concept but I think in this market 20 clubs is absolute maximum we could have ie. 10 in A-League, 10 in B-League
Assume West Sydney and Canberra get the okay in next 5 years. B-League clubs IMO would come from (another 2 in Sydney, 2 in Melbourne, 1 each from Brisbane, Adelaide, Perth + 1 regional like Wollongong, Tassie etc). B-League clubs would have smaller salary cap, smaller stadium requirements etc
February 2nd 2012 @ 10:03am
SportsFanMelb said | February 2nd 2012 @ 10:03am | Report comment
12 teams in the A-League is a good aim IMO.
However, with the B-League concept – how are these clubs going to compete if they have smaller salary caps? Who are they going to attract to play for them and what sponsors will jump onboard a team that gets promoted and the very next season is relegated because they do not have the capacity to compete?
2 extra teams in Melbourne? Have you seen the struggle that Heart have at the moment getting fans to support the club? You would only consider another two teams in Melbourne when Victory play in front of 40-50K every week at Etihad and Heart regularly sell out AAMI Park.
The A-League should focus its energy on getting the number of teams right (somewhere between 12-14 MAX) and also focus on improving the salary cap for all teams (aim to double or triple the cap in the next 10 years).
The second tier/B League/promotion-relegation is a pipedream in this country.
February 2nd 2012 @ 10:18am
pete4 said | February 2nd 2012 @ 10:18am | Report comment
Like I said this is long term thinking. Just like in other leagues the B-League Grand final winner would get a financial boost to compete in the A-League. As the player pool is not limited in our game it is no certainty that that club would be relegated again the following season
February 2nd 2012 @ 10:18am
Fussball ist unser leben said | February 2nd 2012 @ 10:18am | Report comment
In every country where football is played, clubs have found ways to rise from the lowest divisions to the top division.
Leeds United went from playing UCL Semi-final to the 3rd Division of England in the space of 5 years. They could soon be back in the EPL.
Nottingham Forest went from being two times winners of the most prestigious trophy in Club football – the European Cup in the 1970s to playing English 3rd division a few years ago. 12 months ago, Notts Forest were in the play-offs for a place in the EPL.
It takes time, hard work and, of course, a bit of luck.
February 2nd 2012 @ 11:19am
SportsFanMelb said | February 2nd 2012 @ 11:19am | Report comment
Agree Fuss, but comparing teams in the UK with the situation in AUS is not an apples for apples scenario. They have a huge population compared to AUS and its all crushed into an area not much bigger than Victoria. Arguably (I say this with respect) they have a much greater appreciation and passion for the game than here in AUS also.
Pete4 agree with the player pool not being limited, but talent can be. There are already some players in the A-League who are well below the standard required, adding more teams will strain the quality of the league.
February 2nd 2012 @ 11:30am
pete4 said | February 2nd 2012 @ 11:30am | Report comment
Not sure what you mean? B-League would be a second division hence I wouldn’t expect the same level as the A-League
February 2nd 2012 @ 12:56pm
Axelv said | February 2nd 2012 @ 12:56pm | Report comment
In every country that has divisions, they have immense support for football and it’s their number 1 sport, if not a close second. Australian is not England, we are not Germany, Japan etc. We are Australia. Football is not the most popular sport here. What I mean by this is that we strongly follow 5 different sports, we are more similar to USA than anyone else on the world sporting landscape.
The MLS does not have promotion and relegation system, neither should the A-League. USA is a nation with 15 times more people than Australia, and the MLS is booming just nicely, hopefully the trend for the A-League is also upward.
Maybe in 100 or 200 years when football in Australia is massive all over the country that we can start looking at a B-League
February 2nd 2012 @ 1:10pm
Nathan of Perth said | February 2nd 2012 @ 1:10pm | Report comment
Pro/rel isn’t really a question of level of support. After all, all of our state leagues operate on multi-division pro/rel systems, in fact, so do most of the other codes in Australia. It’s simply never been tried before on a national level because of transport costs. But when you consider that sports like Netball and Baseball have pro/semi-pro national competitions on budgets not in excess of about 2m per team with not dissimilar transport requirements, it wouldn’t take much subsidizing and partnership with out big sponsor Qantas and their JetStar network to get past that.
February 2nd 2012 @ 1:16pm
Nathan of Perth said | February 2nd 2012 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
For that matter, Axelv, it’s worth considering that even if Japan and Korea, baseball still holds a much larger marketshare. Tokyo Giants has a turnover in excess fo 200m euros after all, whilst even the outright top J1 clubs have comparable revenues to the top AFL clubs. But when it comes to their J2 league, their ‘deposit’ for a license is only 5m yen, which is not a great deal. Yes, their transport costs are lower, but our airlines can still provide efficient and low cost transport given the distances involved.
February 2nd 2012 @ 1:20pm
Nathan of Perth said | February 2nd 2012 @ 1:20pm | Report comment
Also, failure of the WPS does have people asking questions of the MLS non pro/rel model with the potential for havoc wealthy team owners have in closed-league systems.
February 2nd 2012 @ 1:40pm
Axelv said | February 2nd 2012 @ 1:40pm | Report comment
The state teams play in suburban grounds and are lucky to attract a crowd of more than 500 unless it’s a final. Whether they get promoted or relegated their fan base does not take much of a hit because it’s so small in the first place. If the club has 50 fans or 500, you can’t tell the difference!
The thing is J2 can still attract big crowds and support, we’d never be able to do that in Australia. And while you mention baseball as a major sport in Japan, that is the equivelent of our cricket. Now add Rugby Union, League and the all consuming AFL which have 5 times the support of football in Australia. Yeah na you can’t compare the two markets.
February 2nd 2012 @ 1:54pm
Nathan of Perth said | February 2nd 2012 @ 1:54pm | Report comment
Axelv, the majority of the J1 sides are barely larger in revenue and crowd than our A-League teams and the J2 are smaller. And baseball over there is big enough to basically be the combined AFL/NRL to the J-League.
And if they get 500 in a state league they can get a couple fold times that in a marketed national league with a shot at going up to the big time. With money from a media deal and the understanding that not all players in an A2-League are going to be fully professional, then yes, this is viable. Understand the State Leagues are all growing, in terms of finances and player base. The current A-League is not fully tapping into this, so an A2, especially consisting of established mature clubs, will provide a substantial boost to unifying the support base.
So, yah, there are definitely things we can take from the comparison.
February 3rd 2012 @ 9:59am
kevin said | February 3rd 2012 @ 9:59am | Report comment
Gotta correct you, its always “Nottingham Forest”!
February 2nd 2012 @ 12:52pm
Axelv said | February 2nd 2012 @ 12:52pm | Report comment
+1
The idea of a B-League will spread the support of football into NSL proportions.
Do we want stadiums and teams with 10-20k crowds? or do we want them getting 2-5k crowds? That is what the B-League will do.
Not to mention the millions and millions of dollars it will cost which we don’t have.
I can tell you right now, sitting/standing in a stadium with 20,000 Victory fans going off is an amazing feeling, being in a stadium with 2000 Carlton fans feels like a depressing graveyard. Diluting the support only lessens the quality of the experience and the A-League.
February 2nd 2012 @ 1:04pm
Nathan of Perth said | February 2nd 2012 @ 1:04pm | Report comment
Do we want to reform football and support in this country? Eventually the rift must be made whole.
2k-5k crowds for an A2-League is NOT a bsd thing, that would be good with a solid foundation to build from. Bandwagoners would inflate that to more A-League levels if they got promoted.
Understand that most of the fans and supporters for a B-League, done right and engaging the old NSL crowd, will not come from cannibalizing existing support like Heart. And this is without the romance of the promotion fight/relegation struggle to help keep interest late in the season. But also consider the ability for clubs to rise from obscurity as a hook for media in a country where the term ‘battler’ is a nigh-theological concept!
February 2nd 2012 @ 1:16pm
pete4 said | February 2nd 2012 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
I’m not from Melbourne but ATM there are 2 teams (Victory and Heart) which basically play out of a city stadium. Melbourne Heart have had identity problems from what I have seen/heard because they do not represent particular area i.e. imagine if their name was “East Melbourne Heart” or “West Melbourne Heart”
I think if the right amount of research is done by FFA (and $ is there) clubs geographically play in areas out Frankston way or out Altona/Geelong I think you would find would garner more support because over time fans eventually would identify with that team no matter which division they are in…
February 2nd 2012 @ 1:18pm
Nathan of Perth said | February 2nd 2012 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
Yeah, Heart should have been given a better geographical identity in hindsight. Would at the least have prevented Melbourne Red and Melbourne Blue chants.
February 2nd 2012 @ 1:41pm
Griffo said | February 2nd 2012 @ 1:41pm | Report comment
Nathan of Perth – A2-League is probably going to be a slow burn before it becomes reality IMO, if not solely for economic reasons then actually bridging the gap between the professional A-League teams and semi-pro State teams.
That is where I see the FFA Cup being a catalyst to bridging that divide if setup right.
Most state federations have their own cup comps, so the winners/finalists going up against A-League clubs initially will grow fan bases and increase interest over the years as state clubs aim to professionalise their operations so that they are ready when the time comes as a professional club to perhaps join the A-League, or even an A2-League.
There are a lot of ducks to knock over – revenue, sponsorship, infrastructure, club operations, personnel, youth development, memberships…
Rushing to enter a national competition of any sort without being on a sound, professional, financial footing could result in a fall back to state level.
No one would want that to happen, ex-NSL club or otherwise…
February 2nd 2012 @ 1:44pm
Axelv said | February 2nd 2012 @ 1:44pm | Report comment
I think you misunderstood me Nathan.
We already have x amount of football fans in Australia, the vast majority of them that like the local league are supporting the A-League on a weekly basis. If you doubled the amount of teams, their support bases would half. Right now as it is we are averaging 11k in the A-League and a big team like Victory is averaging over 20k.
With an A2 League and the support across Australia spread, you would be getting 2-5k crowds in our top tier league, the A-League on a regular basis. The more clubs you have, the less concentrated the support is.
Would you rather have 10 A-League clubs with 11k support, or 20 A-League/A2 clubs with 5.5k support average?
Imagine Adelaide United getting relegated and Melbourne Victory to A2, I can guarentee that their crowds will crash, many to never go to a football game again.
We’ve already had a 20 team national competition with a promotion and relegation system, it was called the NSL. The crowds and atmospheres in the NSL were 100 times inferior to what we get now in the A-League, this is something special and you would not want to lose it for the sake of copying Europe.
The quality of the football product in Australia is at it’s best when it’s concentrated and united.
February 2nd 2012 @ 2:06pm
Nathan of Perth said | February 2nd 2012 @ 2:06pm | Report comment
But the problem, Axelv is that we are more or less actively excluding both ex-NSL supporters in addition to potential regional supporters. This will not cost current supporters but will open up the opportunity to new supporters, so rather than the 5.5 average over twenty, we would have an average more like 7 or 8k.
Because as has been noted many many times on this site, we have a certain number of A-League fans but many more football fans who can be brought into the domestic professional fold. This will provide development pathways, domestic players contracts, referee berths, coaching opportunities, media stories. Regional supporters, a la Tasmania, will be brought in, which will certainly not be reducing anyone else’s crowds, get access and who knows, some of the purists might be less off put by the Franchise nature.
February 2nd 2012 @ 7:04pm
MelbCro said | February 2nd 2012 @ 7:04pm | Report comment
@ Axel V
“The MLS does not have promotion and relegation system, neither should the A-League. USA is a nation with 15 times more people than Australia, and the MLS is booming just nicely, hopefully the trend for the A-League is also upward.
Maybe in 100 or 200 years when football in Australia is massive all over the country that we can start looking at a B-League”
Do you enjoy being constantly wrong? pretty sure the United States does hyave a second division, where do you think teams like Vancouver and the forthcoming Montreal came from? They have a scond division, and promotion to the MLS is on a criteria basis which needs to be met. And again this only happens when expansion is on the agenda.
“The idea of a B-League will spread the support of football into NSL proportions.
Do we want stadiums and teams with 10-20k crowds? or do we want them getting 2-5k crowds? That is what the B-League will do.”
Problem is your understanding of a second division is of a European tradition of a football pyramid. If a sceond division was to get off the ground it could only if 1. it is confined to a geographic are ie eastern seabord (most likely just Vic and NSW), 2. have no promotion and relegation, rather it would take the basis of the North American style of criteria to make the step up to the A-League. This is the only way such a league would be able to come about, be sustained and survive. The ramifications of such a league would benefit the game immensly on the long term, to suggest otherwise would show just how short sighted I already know you to be.
“We’ve already had a 20 team national competition with a promotion and relegation system, it was called the NSL. The crowds and atmospheres in the NSL were 100 times inferior to what we get now in the A-League, this is something special and you would not want to lose it for the sake of copying Europe.”
Since when did the NSL have a promotion and relegation system in the way you suggest? More often that not teams were invited or applied. Sometimes playoffs took place between certain state league champions, most often confined to NSW, Vic and SA. But such playoffs were infrequent. Many times brand new franchise were created for the purpose of joining the NSL, thats how Brisbane Strikers, Wollongong Wolves and Perth Glory among many others came into being. But this is copying Europe? I’ve never heard of any European nation have such an inconsitent and infrequent system of ‘promotion’.
February 2nd 2012 @ 10:06pm
Glen said | February 2nd 2012 @ 10:06pm | Report comment
2-5k crowds in a B-league isn’t that bad. But what if that team gets promoted? They won’t necessarily gain an extra 5000 fans. In which case we would be creating a new team with only gold coast type support. Not to mention they won’t have the revenue to compete.
I don’t think promo or relegation will work in Aust on a national scale. Where comps get too big (ie AFL & NRL in a decade or so) confrerences is the way to go.
February 2nd 2012 @ 10:21am
langou said | February 2nd 2012 @ 10:21am | Report comment
First step is to make sure the teams we have stay afloat. I agree with everything SportsFanMelb said, no chance of a promotion/relegation happening any time soon, and if Tasmania (an Aussie Rules mad State) can’t get a permanent spot in an expansion hungry AFL than the A-League is a very distant dream.
February 2nd 2012 @ 10:35am
Qantas supports Australian Football said | February 2nd 2012 @ 10:35am | Report comment
Pete4—I no longer support the concept of West Sydney. The Rover’s bid was a disaster and you can put that down to a resounding NO from the existing state league based Ethnic clubs that have a strangle hold in the region—-the area is well and truly fractured with jealousy amongst themselves—with who should represent West Sydney. Therefore the next best option would be Canberra not too far away from a lot of genuine West Sydney support.
February 2nd 2012 @ 12:55pm
Nathan of Perth said | February 2nd 2012 @ 12:55pm | Report comment
I think at some point we have to accept that the old, often ethnic, teams that were displaced by the A-League will deserve their chance to fit their way back into the top flight. If they can muster the support and finances and on-field endeavour, then they’ll have proved they are up for the top-flight.
February 2nd 2012 @ 1:57pm
Qantas supports Australian Football said | February 2nd 2012 @ 1:57pm | Report comment
No, No, it’s far too late, I had been connected to these clubs in the past as a player, a player in 3rd and 2nd grade teams in semi pro football in NSW State Soccer Federation and they are find people. But when it comes to football they are tunnelled vision. They had 50 years of trying to get mainstream media to accept them and it didn’t happen. I don’t blame them entirely, but the ‘Wog tag’ is very much entrenched in Mainstream TV executive’s psyche and it won’t ever change. I am of old Greek heritage so I can say this with regret.
Remember David Hill, the old CEO of Soccer Australia, he tried to fix the NSL and failed, and described it as **** (can’t repeat fear of the mods) John O’Neil identified the problem and fixed it with one team one city. It’s heading in the right direction and on the GC although the attendance are small—I see the crowd well represented cross all cultures of people—it’s working but it needs a couple of more generational changes for it to fully take off. It will come in time.
February 2nd 2012 @ 2:09pm
Nathan of Perth said | February 2nd 2012 @ 2:09pm | Report comment
I would note that this time they would be becoming engaged with a far more effective governing structure than old Soccer Australia.
February 2nd 2012 @ 7:33pm
MelbCro said | February 2nd 2012 @ 7:33pm | Report comment
@ Qantas
you really are clueless. So the western sydney bid failed due to the ethnic clubs? What do the ethnic clubs having anything at all to do with an A-League franchise? No other A-League franchise has come into existence with any co-operation with ‘ethnic clubs, that includes Sydney FC and Melbourne Victory who both sprouted out of the ethnic football heartland. But when it comes to Western Sydney it becomes a completly different story all of a sudden? What a load of crap.
February 2nd 2012 @ 8:05pm
pete4 said | February 2nd 2012 @ 8:05pm | Report comment
Qantas – I reckon West Sydney will be on par with Melbourne Victory as the best supported club in the HAL (I’m not from Sydney either). The Rovers bid didn’t get up because the FFA wants $6M license fee upfront and all private investment as it didn’t want to put any of it’s own cash in (which was a must with any rapid expansion plan).
Like it or not it’s the historical centre of the game in the country. Huge number of clubs and player numbers. The trick for the FFA will be to get the formula right and get some old heads like Les Scheinflug, Rale Rasic, Frank Farina, Paul Okon etc involved and it’ll be a big success IMO
February 3rd 2012 @ 6:30am
Kasey said | February 3rd 2012 @ 6:30am | Report comment
Do people forget that the only reason the ‘most supported club’ in the HAL even exist is due to FFA supporting their creation? the consortium that became MVFC were unable to raise sufficient capital for the inaugural season, so FFA underwrote them until they could raise the coin. What would be wrong with doing it a second time in WS? If the FFA firmly believes that WS is a priority(as many fans do) and firmly believe that the team has he potential to be as (if not more) successful than the MVC, then surely it could find some coin(after the next media rights deal is struck of course) to underwrite any shortfall the WS consortium has? Chuq has already talked about double standards wrt evaluating the success of a team in Tasmania v Canberra using HAL games played in each location.
February 2nd 2012 @ 10:04am
Chuq said | February 2nd 2012 @ 10:04am | Report comment
“Also re Tasmania – just cant see them sustaining a professional football team full time of any code,”
Hobart Hurricanes? Ok it’s cricket, but business wise, what is the difference?
February 2nd 2012 @ 10:21am
pete4 said | February 2nd 2012 @ 10:21am | Report comment
BBL only lasts 6 weeks…
Anyone know how much it costs to run a franchise?? or is it all paid for by Cricket Australia
February 2nd 2012 @ 11:21am
SportsFanMelb said | February 2nd 2012 @ 11:21am | Report comment
As pete4 said football codes are more expensive to run than a 6 week BBL team backed by CA and the broadcasters.
February 2nd 2012 @ 12:46pm
Redb said | February 2nd 2012 @ 12:46pm | Report comment
Exactly right pete4. Was just going to say the same thing. the Hurricanes are yet to be proven to be sustainable and were one of the more successful BBL sides.
Cricket is also a much more popular sport in Tas.
February 2nd 2012 @ 1:23pm
Nathan of Perth said | February 2nd 2012 @ 1:23pm | Report comment
Will be looking forward to seeing some of the bean counter figures coming out of the BBL. We do know, however, it was nowhere as lucrative as the IPL, probably a few times over. We don’t know the extent of the tv rights deal, I think.
February 2nd 2012 @ 10:10am
Fussball ist unser leben said | February 2nd 2012 @ 10:10am | Report comment
SportsFanMelb
I’m absolutely serious about a 2-tier professional league.
First, let’s eliminate this myth about promotion/relegation not working in Australia. Promotion/relegation is the part of every football league in Australia. Promotion/relegation is also part of local AFL competitions in Victoria, local cricket competitions in Victoria, etc.
Having said that, you’ve identified 3 very important issues. All these issues can be overcome if we allow clubs to start growing organically – with the current HAL we have artificially created clubs and forced them to play in glitzy, high-tech stadia, which raises the costs considerably.
The owner of Perth Glory has stated Perth will be a fully profitable team – with 8-10k crowds – if, and only if, they can play in a more appropriate stadium, where match-day costs are reduced.
February 2nd 2012 @ 11:31am
SportsFanMelb said | February 2nd 2012 @ 11:31am | Report comment
Where are all the second tier teams going to placed around Australia?
As you said promotion/relegation is part of LOCAL communities (e.g within VIC, QLD, WA etc), not teams competeing on a Australia wide basis.
The costs would be extraordinary and the teams could not afford to travel to all corners of AUS to compete, the UK and other countries in EURO have the advantage of being small, the travel factor and costs associated with it are not as great.
A more comparable league to our own is the MLS. They have a similar size geography, much larger population (approx 300M) and much more money is spent on sport and they are not opting for a promo/relegation system, rather went for a conference system.
ATM we dont have the population for either system, lets focus on the A-League, making it sustainable, growing to a reasonable number of teams and increasing the salary cap and save the fantasy stuff for another time far off in the future.
February 2nd 2012 @ 1:26pm
Nathan of Perth said | February 2nd 2012 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
Well said, Fuss. With you on that one.
Would be good to let a Hobart and a Launceston club accede to a B-League and see what rises to the top than create an awkward and forced Tasmania United FC when Tasmania is clearly anything but united.
February 2nd 2012 @ 3:29pm
The Cattery said | February 2nd 2012 @ 3:29pm | Report comment
Fussball
the key point is that P&R works with local leagues, where it’s all amateur, costs are low, etc.
But the minute you start talking about elite professional teams travelling across this vast land, with only a handful of large cities, then we are talking about something a bit more complicated that what you might contemplate with your local league (where it doesn’t matter if attendances plummett from 50 to 25).
As an example, if Sydney’s or Perth’s only team gets relegated, they could be out of the comp for years – it’s like banishing the game at the elite level from one of five big cities in Australia. In the case of Sydney, it would be commercial suicide to go years without an elite presence in that city.
It’s instructive to look at Holland, where soccer is the major sport, in fact, at an elite professional level, it’s virtually the only sport. A population of 17 million cramped into this tiny space 1/6th the size of Victoria. In other words, every city and town is easily accessible – but even there, teams in the Eerstedivisie are getting 3k to 4k per game.
February 2nd 2012 @ 3:49pm
SportsFanMelb said | February 2nd 2012 @ 3:49pm | Report comment
spot on TC
February 2nd 2012 @ 10:22am
Griffo said | February 2nd 2012 @ 10:22am | Report comment
I have to agree – I don’t think a P/R can be supported here, but I see the FFA giving it a go, because the AFC says so.
If we can get 20-odd teams then I think the compromise is to have an A-League with conferences: top finishers in each conference goes into the Finals Series for the dunny seat. Conference Premiers get ACL spot, as does the Champion and FFA Cup winner – there’s your 4 ACL spots.
I think the regional rounds is a good initiative but needs to be more targeted over the next few years to areas that are likely to be the next candidates for an A-League team. Slowly build interest which will then help bids with potential new members.
Tassie will be in one day, but I think other areas will get a chance for a team before them.
February 2nd 2012 @ 9:43am
Kasey said | February 2nd 2012 @ 9:43am | Report comment
If a second tier was to be instituted, I for one would love to see the ex-NSL teams given first look at it. I don’t know if the financials would stack up, it being quite a big step up in outlay from state/premier/super leagues to a comp requiring plane flights and perhaps hotel accomodation. Depending on the future direction of the HAL/FFA financial side of things, perhaps they could chip in to help cover the costs of such things. An A2 league like that would be the ideal place to test-run new teams, to akkllow them to perfect their business model before eventual promotion up to the top flight. Its no surprise that the most recent success stories in MLS have been teams promoted from the 2nd tier USL/NASL (Seattle, Portland, Vancouver and Montreal)
I guess those noisy few that openly campaign against all things FFA/HAL might want to re-evaluate that view if FFA were to be required to help cover the costs. Governments routinely issue 5 year and 30 year plans. Where is the 30 year plan for football and what FFA wants it to look like in the future? Its hard to hit a target if you don’t know what you’re aiming for.
February 2nd 2012 @ 9:51am
CrossIT said | February 2nd 2012 @ 9:51am | Report comment
While NSL teams are viable, do we really want to go back down that path?
Agree with a A2 league, put the ex-NSL sides there. A national competition, winner gets the third spot in ACL and a game against the A-League champions, oh and money lots and lots of money. Incentive enough?
Promotion & Relegation if fraught with far too much risk for the FFA to even consider it, we should let it go.
February 2nd 2012 @ 11:10am
Kasey said | February 2nd 2012 @ 11:10am | Report comment
what path? ‘ethnic’ teams? why not? I think the more time hat pases, the more that demographic change alters the make-up of the core of what were previously almost enclaves. If the ex-NSL clubs have the money and the pasion required to sustain an A2 level team, then why not. It wuiould add something to the local football scene IMO. It would build the level of footballer beyonfd just the HAL, which could only be good for the game and the FFA Cup (whenever that may happen). I like the idea of the A2 being run almost as a seperate competittion, with perhaps a super cup concept between the 2 champions of HAL & HAL2 with some prize money and/or an ACL slot in the mix. Good thought. I think we are not likely to ever get too many HAL fans from ex-NSL club fans, so why not formalize things and have those teams in a seperate and in the superCup competing competition?
February 2nd 2012 @ 1:05pm
nordster said | February 2nd 2012 @ 1:05pm | Report comment
good points kasey … the main thing for ex-NSL teams is if they represent a sizeable distinct identity here. If they were to rely on being an imitation Euro national team like some did in the past, well it wouldn’t work these days.
a second division could be workable and would be a great stepping stone for new (and smaller) regions. And lets face it a safety net for teams dropping down from the top flight. That’s actually a real positive for the A-League to allow these peaks and troughs across two divisions, rather than contriving an equal system through caps and the like.
those suggesting a second division is pure fantasy are the ones off with the pixies. Especially when they try and suggest the second tier would have the same costs and require the same level of support to be sustainable.
February 2nd 2012 @ 1:30pm
SportsFanMelb said | February 2nd 2012 @ 1:30pm | Report comment
Nordster how is a second division workable?
The points for why it is not workable and why it is a long, long, long way off (if it ever happens in AUS at all) have already been produced.
Would we rather have one really good league with 12-14 teams playing at a high level and all clubs being sustainable? Or would we rather have two leagues that are average and clubs bleeding money?
Thoughts?
February 2nd 2012 @ 1:31pm
Nathan of Perth said | February 2nd 2012 @ 1:31pm | Report comment
That safety net is an important component. The Fury could still be with us after all, with a parachute payment and a drop to a league that doesn’t require as much money so they coud regroup.
February 2nd 2012 @ 2:25pm
nordster said | February 2nd 2012 @ 2:25pm | Report comment
SFM … how *could* it be workable? It all depends on how its structured obviously. Financially the bar needs to be lowered to the point where the smaller regions can afford to compete. Wage costs would range from very low (youth squad size) to up to the full A-L cap potentially if some cashed up entity wants to push for promotion. Similar to how it works in other countries, i know not the same but some lessons are common.
Every one of those points against that i’ve read are overcome one way or another. Travel sounds like the biggest one to me, hardly a groundbreaking thing to overcome. An interim measure may be to limit the second division to east coast states (nsw, vic, qld, tas) initially.
February 2nd 2012 @ 3:47pm
SportsFanMelb said | February 2nd 2012 @ 3:47pm | Report comment
Nordster,
How is the population size of AUS overcome? Where is the extra money coming from considering the number of sports that AUS has operating at the moment?
Its all fine to say lets lower costs, but how exactly are you going to lower costs?
Smaller region teams are not going to be able to compete with the larger city based teams on any level (membership, attendance, sponsorship etc). The Travel factor is unfortunately the biggest hurdle and the one thing that you can count on is that it is only going to get more expensive in the future not cheaper.
Can you imagine an A League 2 clash between Mackay and Launceston or Rockingham and Canberra? Who is going to foot the bill for the teams travel and accomodation? Now imagine an entire season worth of scenarios where small regional teams are traveling all over the place, the league would not last a season with that type of cost associated with it.
February 2nd 2012 @ 4:39pm
nordster said | February 2nd 2012 @ 4:39pm | Report comment
well there’d have to be enough areas willing to meet a base level of costs to make it viable. There wouldn’t be enough of those yet. I guess an 8 team league at a minimum. The idea though still has merit and shouldn’t be dismissed in such an out of hand manner like some folks do.
And I’m not suggesting that new areas could compete with the bigger areas. Thats sorta the point. Set up a two division structure so the league isn’t limited to just the more populated and (key word here) … saturated … markets. So while the population is spread quite a lot of it is unserviced by national level sport.
The dynamics of large and small areas competing on the basis of a degree of meritocracy is actually a big appeal should the base cost travel issue be overcome. This is something that no other sports really do that i can think of.
I won’t profess to know all the travel and accomodation costings, i’m just blabbing away on some blog LOL. But clearly lots of semi-professional and amateur sports/leagues manage on varying levels, so its not impossible. Certainly if this is the main hurdle than i think the positives make it worth keeping on the agenda … and especially stoking away with things like regional community A-L rounds and a national cup.
February 2nd 2012 @ 1:15pm
Bondy said | February 2nd 2012 @ 1:15pm | Report comment
Fuss,
I’ve had a think about M.V.F.C. philosophy this year, and I think they’ve had to many irons in the fire so to speak the announcement of H “great news ” winning over new football supporters or those who dont really take the sport that seriously ‘very hard to do ” sack Merrick and Mehm in not so good results on the pitch sack him , Magilton in “the bounce effect” and hasn’t quite worked , there all massive tasks to try to acheive for any club and to be fair they’ve tried hard the board .
You’re a still getting good crowds now even when the punters see what 7 draws from 11 games imagine if they were white hot .
Footnote T Henry is becoming a bit of a circus for us which is a shame dragging out a club legend to rescue the situation and it isn’t working .
February 2nd 2012 @ 9:09pm
Fussball ist unser leben said | February 2nd 2012 @ 9:09pm | Report comment
Bondy, it’s fantastic supporting MVFC – in the news all the time, fans from other clubs always talking about us (compliments or slurs it doesn’t matter to me) and camaraderie with thousands of supporters, who understand the Game & love the Club.
I can’t imagine any other HAL club pulling 20k crowds of passionate fans when they’ve only won 4 games out of 19. But, MVFC fans will be there again on Saturday night hoping that … this is the game we turn things around.
Yes, it’s been a tough year, but to simply watching H every fortnight this season has been a dream come true. The man is just pure class – with the ball & with the fans – and he’s the best Aussie footballer I’ve ever seen in 35+yrs following the only Game that matters.
I’m Victory till I die!
February 2nd 2012 @ 9:16pm
Midfielder said | February 2nd 2012 @ 9:16pm | Report comment
Fuss
Good to see loyal folk like yourself who are their when the dark times come … but with your squad I have no doubt when you come good MV will be a force … sometimes only one win does it…
BTW not sure if you saw my post on another thread I will repeat here…
Fuss + Art + any other Melbourne poster
There is a 70 / 30 chance we [she who must be obeyed and I] are going to the Mariners V MV match …. will let you know if I am …. must meet up and have a beer / coffee or whatever …. put a face to tag…
PS to Art if we go gotta see H play and so MV got the nod over Heart…
February 2nd 2012 @ 10:02pm
Axelv said | February 2nd 2012 @ 10:02pm | Report comment
Great post Fuss!
Agree fully with everything you’ve said.
The city is ours!!!
February 2nd 2012 @ 8:36am
Chris said | February 2nd 2012 @ 8:36am | Report comment
Unless FFA want to go through the embarrasment of losing a team after a single season, no.
Sureley Western Sydney (population 2 million) has got to be a higher priority than Tasmania with a population less than a quarter of that amount.
Also the average income in Tasmania is exceedingly low, that has a fair impact on the commercial value of expanding there.
Putting a team in Tasmania would be nothing more than dots on a map.
February 2nd 2012 @ 1:38pm
Nathan of Perth said | February 2nd 2012 @ 1:38pm | Report comment
The problem is that forcing a Western Sydney over top of the existing patchwork of clubs has been a non-starter up til now.
February 2nd 2012 @ 8:47am
Titus said | February 2nd 2012 @ 8:47am | Report comment
Disappointing turnout to be honest. I think Tassie in the a-league is a long way away. The next teams in should be Western Sydney and Canberra.
National footprints are great but they also add to the costs of travel. Tasmania should start working on a 10 year plan that involves grassroots planning and having a team ready to go. Maybe look at getting a team in the VPL. Keep playing a few pre-season and regional games there, though.
February 2nd 2012 @ 9:12am
Clayts said | February 2nd 2012 @ 9:12am | Report comment
Disappointing? Why? Were you expecting 10k to turn up on a Wednesday that looked like it was about to storm, to watch two teams they don’t support (and two teams pretty much on the bottom of the ladder)?
Wednesday games struggle to get over that mark in the big cities, with teams that have local support. I think if the game was on a Saturday or Sunday it probably would have been closer to a 10k crowd and we wouldn’t be talking about it in this fashion – in fact, we would probably be all saying that Tassie should have a team. At the moment, we are comparing apples and oranges with these crowd figures
February 2nd 2012 @ 9:23am
Chuq said | February 2nd 2012 @ 9:23am | Report comment
What, the same Canberra that got 5193 to a Friday night fixture in 2009?
Double standards.
February 3rd 2012 @ 10:53am
pete4 said | February 3rd 2012 @ 10:53am | Report comment
Chuq – from memory the issue back then was both teams arrived in Canberra less than 24 hours before the match and pretty much all the promotion was that day.
Thankfully FFA have learnt from this and I understand both clubs held clinics down there in Tassie and there was some promotion that week. Don’t get too hung up on the figure
February 2nd 2012 @ 8:58am
jamesb said | February 2nd 2012 @ 8:58am | Report comment
next teams in the A-League
West Sydney and Canberra (2015)
Wollongong and 2nd NZ (2020)
as said earlier, NZ should leave OFC.
Unless we have promotion/ relegation in the next couple of decades, I see Tasmania United along with NTH QLD starting in the A2 League.
February 2nd 2012 @ 11:33am
clipper said | February 2nd 2012 @ 11:33am | Report comment
jamesb – agree with you on 2nd NZ team – if the Phoenix can do OK in Wellington, then there’s every chance a team in Auckland will go even better. Football is evenly spread throughout NZ and although second to Rugby, got a boost by their performance at the world cup.
February 2nd 2012 @ 9:08am
Futbanous said | February 2nd 2012 @ 9:08am | Report comment
Tasmania is way down a list of potential expansion teams for me.
Teams should be put in areas where there is at least some history of a football following first & foremost.
That means Wollongong,West Sydney,Canberra.
Not a great fan of this regional business either.
How do you make the A-League known in the country areas. Firstly you build a strong league,strong enough that established A-league clubs have a presence in the Australian sporting landscape.
Other sports have developed this over many decades.
Once you’ve got real porridge you don’t have to take the instant stuff out of town.
At the same time a connection needs to be established between Country areas & their A-League counterparts.
As this country is geographically too large & the population too small to ever have promotion/relegation & multiple professional divisions like England,a cup competition is the only viable alternative.
No need then to bother about regional rounds, the cup if organised on a national basis immediately connects A-League clubs to regions.
The sooner a viable Cup format is nutted out the better.
February 2nd 2012 @ 9:13am
Chris said | February 2nd 2012 @ 9:13am | Report comment
If the A League has any sense whatsoever they won’t be giving expansion a moment’s thought at the moment. All the focus must be on ensuring that the current competition gets to the point of financial viability. GCU is a basketcase in pretty much every facet and only exists because Clive Palmer continues to pour millions of dollars into the team.
February 2nd 2012 @ 11:31am
Kasey said | February 2nd 2012 @ 11:31am | Report comment
100% agree. expansion must be the last thing on FFas mind right now. All effort should be in the direction of getting the current 10 teams firing and viable. Lets bed down what we have before any thought of expansion. By all means set a long term goal for a 16 team comp, but give it a wish-date of ‘after 2015′
That tells people that the door is still open for new teams, but that the priority right now is consolidation/stability rather than expansion. The image of the game took a big hit with
1. NQ Fury failing
2. 2 seasons of declining crowd averages in seasons 5 and 6
3. Failed World Cup bid
4. continued poor attendance for GCU
the game needs to look at answering these negtives with a few consecutive seasons of positive news(steady to increasing crowds, good performances by the Socceroos, 10 stable HAL teams) before investors are likely to put up any money for expansion teams IMO.
February 2nd 2012 @ 9:13am
striker said | February 2nd 2012 @ 9:13am | Report comment
Definately not this will be as bad as Gold coast united the only real place to go is Western Sydney or Canberra.
February 2nd 2012 @ 10:03am
Chuq said | February 2nd 2012 @ 10:03am | Report comment
Have you actually checked the attendance stats for those locations when they have hosted regional matches?
February 2nd 2012 @ 10:10am
JAJI said | February 2nd 2012 @ 10:10am | Report comment
I am still a fan of the AFL approach of relocating a side to another city and taking the Gold Coast side and Bleiberg and Palmer to Western Sydney….everything is in place football wise – I would imagine Miron wont be fan of moving from Main Beach to Penrith but crowds and market wise the move would be a winner…..