Brisbane Roar hit stumbling block in ACL debut
By Melanie Dinjaski, 7 Mar 2012
- Tagged:
- Ange Postecoglou, Asian Champions League, Brisbane Roar, FC Tokyo, Hyundai A-League, Melanie Dinjaski, Ranko Popovic
134 Have your say
Brisbane Roar aim to make the Grand Final for the second consecutive year - can they win the A-League? (AAP Image/ Patrick Hamilton)
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In possibly the biggest anti-climax in football since Fernando Torres’ disastrous transfer to Chelsea, Brisbane Roar kicked off their Asian Champions League campaign in the worst way possible, failing to live up to the hype in a disappointing 0-2 loss to FC Tokyo in Brisbane overnight.
Playing on their home turf Brisbane entered the match as overwhelming favourites.
Excitement was in the air. Roar coach Ange Postecoglou spoke confidently of his aspirations to win the thing and dreamt of lining up against the top clubs in Europe.
People were salivating at the imperative question of the night – how would Brisbane Roar, widely regarded as the best ever A-League team, stack up against international competition? Betting markets gave them short odds of $1.60 while FC Tokyo were given little hope of victory at $5.50.
Then slowly but surely the reality check sunk in.
Each making their debut in the Asian Champions League, both teams took a while to warm up in the early stages with a handful of chances going either way.
The styles of play were similar but the execution from Tokyo was far superior than the efforts of the home team.
It was as the first half came to a close however, that FC Tokyo really came into their own and began to exploit Brisbane’s weak points in defence. A poor effort from the back four men in orange allowed a Tokunaga cross which was aptly put away by Yazawa in the final minute of injury time.
The Emperor’s Cup Champions then doubled their advantage through Hasegawa not long into the second half, leaving a mountain to climb for Brisbane to get back in it.
After the game, Postecoglou put the first half capitulation and overall performance down to nerves, proving that even for seasoned professional footballers, testing your skills against an international outfit can still be daunting.
“We’re obviously disappointed with the result. As expected it was a tough game,” he said.
“Our pressure wasn’t what it should be to be honest. We didn’t win the ball back pretty quickly as we do in the A-League.
“It’s challenging, but from a team point of view I think the experience will do us good.”
Brisbane never really played to their potential.
In defence there were many lapses, with towering fan-favourite Mohamed Adnan having a particularly difficult night.
In attack, the likes of Thomas Broich, Henrique and Besart Berisha were never afforded enough room to work some of their magic while facing the stealthy Tokyo backline.
There were long balls, something not seen very often from Brisbane in the A-League. The Roar appeared fragile and slow in possession, bumped off time and time again by the strong Tokyo men, who would then break away with incredible speed.
Brisbane played deep for long periods of the game, pressing too infrequently and unable to keep up with Tokyo’s quick tempo, which gave the visitors plenty of time on the ball in the attacking half.
Not that they needed it.
Their one touch passing through midfield was beautiful to watch and saw them toy with the Roar in a way we’re used to seeing Brisbane toy with other A-League teams.
Serbian FC Tokyo coach Ranko Popovic was beaming post-match at the display from his players.
“This game, we played very smart. I think we were one step ahead of Brisbane,” he said.
“Big respect to Brisbane, and I’m not someone to give out compliments for no reason.
“They are doing very well but I’m happy. Today we were a little bit better and we won the game.”
Whether you were one of the 12,037 ACL fans in wet conditions at Brisbane Stadium (Suncorp Stadium) or one of the many keen ACL followers watching from home, it’s hard not to feel a little deflated at the result.
FC Tokyo are a great side who were never worthy of playing in the second tier. They are rightly back in the top flight of Japanese football and showed all their class against Brisbane.
Despite little game time, they never looked flustered by the reigning A-League champions. Even without two key players they proved to be miles ahead of Brisbane at almost every stage of the match.
The best side won it; no-one can argue with that.
Still, even though Brisbane now sit at the bottom of Group F on goal difference following Ulsan Hyundai’s win in the other match, from all accounts Postecoglou and the team remain positive about their chances of advancing through to the knockout round.
However, you can’t help but think that if they play like they did tonight, it’s hard to see them getting very far.
It’s harsh, but true.
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March 7th 2012 @ 6:57am
JohnL said | March 7th 2012 @ 6:57am | Report comment
Hi Mel
Last night was definitely a learning experience for us, and have no complaints about the final result. Disappointing – yes, but Tokyo were worth the win. From a spectator point of view, it was a great match to watch, and dare I say, was nice to have some quality opposition up here to watch. (This is not a dig at anyone or the a-league, but we are steps behind the top countries in Asia.)
A couple of things that I noted during the game which hopefully we can improve on starting this weekend, is increasing the speed of our ball circulation, and looking to get our midfielders in positions behind their strikers to give us penetration beyond their first defensive line.
For the people that are laughing and making fun of the Roar because Tokyo FC were in the J2 last season – seriously? A bit more respect needs to be given. Where were Kashima Reysol before they won the J-League? (J2 champions) Where were Roar before we won the double last season? (9th). A teams position/history means nothing. It’s how you perform on the night.
To the Adelaide supporters, congratulations on your win last night. And to the Mariners supporters, all the best tonight. I will be cheering you guys on for a win.
March 7th 2012 @ 10:37am
Griffo said | March 7th 2012 @ 10:37am | Report comment
Some disappointment is natural but the Roar’s ACL campaign is by no means over after just one game.
Sure there are improvements needed as some excellent posters have indicated, but that doesn’t detract from the fact that Tokyo were a couple of levels above the Roar.
How they respond on the road for the next two games will be interesting, with the first game behind them and improvements made.
March 7th 2012 @ 10:38am
Griffo said | March 7th 2012 @ 10:38am | Report comment
ah…this was suppose to be a general comment, not one at you JohnL, although while I’m here:
Your last paragraph gets the thumbs up from me.
As a Jets supporter I’ll be cheering on the Mariners tonight.
March 7th 2012 @ 12:30pm
Melanie Dinjaski said | March 7th 2012 @ 12:30pm | Report comment
Right on the money! From both of you!
March 7th 2012 @ 7:51am
marlie chiller said | March 7th 2012 @ 7:51am | Report comment
The disappointing thing is that the roar did not play badly but were outclassed and looked unlikely to score. They played much better than the draw with Heart on Friday. The Tokyo supporters outsang the den by a lot more than 2 – 0.
March 7th 2012 @ 8:19am
West Sydney said | March 7th 2012 @ 8:19am | Report comment
Brisbane didnt play bad, You were just carved up and outplayed, by a J2 team without their big star LUCAS. im not suprised.
The roar carve up A-league teams because the A-league is a very poor league, everyone keeps raving on about they cant wait to see the U17′s, U/19′s and olympic team play in the WC tournaments and then they were all flops, just like Brisbane roar.
since the a-league started there have not been any quality exports to Europe, and the presense of aussies in the EPL is diminshing.
if you are a good young player try get out of the country as soon as possible! if you want to make it.
March 7th 2012 @ 9:00am
Fussball ist unser leben said | March 7th 2012 @ 9:00am | Report comment
No exports to Europe?
1. Mitch Langerak to Dortmund (Bundesliga champions)
2. Matthew Leckie to Mönchengladbach (currently 3rd in Bundesliga and have beaten Bayern twice this year)
3. Nikita Rukavytsya to Berlin (Bundesliga)
4. Mustafa Amini to Dortmund
This has all occurred in the space of 6 years. If the HAL can develop just 1 player every year that is good enough to be signed by the big teams of Europe, then we’re doing fine.
March 7th 2012 @ 9:19am
West Sydney said | March 7th 2012 @ 9:19am | Report comment
1. 2 games in 2 seasons
2. Not playing, doesnt feature, average 2 minutes a game, they might be 3rd but Leckie has contributed nothing
3. has scored his first goal this season, currently in relegation trouble
4. Amini to dortmund, ok watch this space lets see what he does, prediction, one season and he will be back to australia
all this in the space of 6 years, the NSL developed alot more players than this.
sorry fussy i love your posts but alot of the time you over ex-aggerate
March 7th 2012 @ 9:34am
Fussball ist unser leben said | March 7th 2012 @ 9:34am | Report comment
West Sydney
How about you name some of these players, who developed in the NSL and went straight to top Europe teams in top European Leagues.
E.g. Schwarzer played 6 games over 2 years for unfashionable clubs in 2nd Division Germany when he left the NSL; Timmy & Lucas went to one of the most thuggish anti-football teams, Milwall, and played 2nd/3rd English Division, Viduka went to a good Euro club, but in the Croatian league.
Ned Zelic & Paolo Okon are the only guys I can think of who went to top quality European teams in top quality leagues early in their career. Farina & Krncevic went to top Euro clubs in the Belgian league.
March 7th 2012 @ 11:10am
West Sydney said | March 7th 2012 @ 11:10am | Report comment
I would have named Okon and Zelic, Bosnich and Breciano, Grella, Emerton, theres many more.
just look at the EPL and tell me who is left? there is no one but Shwarzer playing regularly
March 7th 2012 @ 11:22am
Fussball ist unser leben said | March 7th 2012 @ 11:22am | Report comment
Agree with Bozza.
Bresciano & Vinnie played majority of their first 4 years in Serie B for Empoli before they made their mark on Serie A.
It took all the big name Aussies 3-4 years grinding out a living at lowly Euro clubs or sitting in the reserves for bigger Euro clubs before they got noticed. So, how about we give this generation a chance before we dismiss them?
Don’t forget we have 5-7 yrs gap – from the early 2000s as NSL was dying to 2006 when HAL started – when football in Australia was at a low ebb.
March 7th 2012 @ 9:09am
Pete #205 said | March 7th 2012 @ 9:09am | Report comment
Aww… someone didn’t get their Coco Pops this morning. Look, you make some good points, but the negativity is blinding. There have been no massive exports from the A-league (Viduka style), yet, but please enlighten us as to who was the last “quality export” was before that.
I’m disappointed Brisbane didn’t make a better go of it, but the test will be (as Fuss says below) how they respond in the next game, after what was their very first venture in an intercontinental competition.
Oh, and …always look on the bright side of life..da da, da da da etc. etc.
March 7th 2012 @ 9:42am
Nathan of Perth said | March 7th 2012 @ 9:42am | Report comment
You’re an idiot, they’re a J1 team because they obliterated J2 and were able to beat out all the other J1 teams to win their FA Cup and as good as the A-League is, the Japanese leagues are the strongest in Asia.
March 7th 2012 @ 11:07am
West Sydney said | March 7th 2012 @ 11:07am | Report comment
i love the name calling i get just because i critisize the a-league or an a-league, bring it on Nathan if you can handle critizism or negativity go home.
before the game there were people gloating how the roar will clean sweep the ACL teams like Tokyo and its good to see egg on everyones face.
so now your praising Tokyo FC with their achievements and trying to to justify why the roar lost
March 7th 2012 @ 12:00pm
Nathan of Perth said | March 7th 2012 @ 12:00pm | Report comment
Oh no, I wasn’t calling you names over the A-League part. It was characterising Tokyo FC as a J2 team after it won promotion and the Emperor’s Cup part that I was calling you an idiot for.
Because that was stupid of you.
Also, “so now” implies I was at some stage denigrating Tokyo FC or the J-Leagues, which I never have.
March 7th 2012 @ 12:41pm
Melanie Dinjaski said | March 7th 2012 @ 12:41pm | Report comment
Marlie & West Sydney. They didn’t play bad, no. Definitely not what I’m saying. They were worthy opponents for sure. They just never reached the level expected of them. Well that most expected of them!
Hoping that was just them warming up to the occasion and they’ll improve in their next match. I really want them to do well in the ACL!
March 7th 2012 @ 8:33am
Fussball ist unser leben said | March 7th 2012 @ 8:33am | Report comment
As someone, who has watched 9 ACL matches played in Melbourne, I was not at all surprised by last night’s result. The only surprise was I expected BRI to score but Tokyo to score more. In reality, BRI didn’t really trouble the Tokyo GK.
For me, last night’s result is not a reflection on any disparity between the J-League & HAL (of course there is a disparity – J-League is 13 years older than HAL & many J-League teams player wages equal that of 10 HAL clubs).
Rather, for me, last night’s result was a reflection on the pig-headed and, perhaps, arrogant attitude of Ange Postecoglou that “BRI will play their own game regardless of the opponent”. BRI is not Barcelona and, until Ange realises this, his team will cop a hiding in the ACL.
AUFC went to UZB, played on an awful pitch in freezing conditions and won the game. There was nothing pretty about AUFC but they got the result.
BRI fans have always been crowing about “style over results” – but, in the ACL, pragmatism will always trump lofty ideals. Let’s see if Ange learns from Game 1 and adopts a more pragmatic approach to future games – especially on the road. Alas, it may be too late for BRI in this ACL campaign. Losing at home in a 6 game Group is close to catastrophic and, unless BRI gets a win in Beijing next month the ACL is over for them.
March 7th 2012 @ 8:40am
West Sydney said | March 7th 2012 @ 8:40am | Report comment
Spot on as always Fussball,
too much arrogance and disrespect, it is embarrassing
March 7th 2012 @ 12:49pm
Melanie Dinjaski said | March 7th 2012 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
Fuss & West Sydney, I think you’re both confusing arrogance for confidence and a willingness to dream. It’s the type of comments similarly heard from coaches like Miron Bleiberg and we love them for it! That they dare to punch above the weight and expect success!
Postecoglou was generous in his comments regarding Tokyo. There was plenty of praise to the efforts of Tokyo in pressers before and after the fixture. He knew they would be tough competition, but if Brisbane played to their potential they could have won the game. As you say, at the very least we expected goals from Brisbane.
But you’re right, they’re defence was never troubled. Gonda the goalkeeper was excellent. He was always in the right position reading play exceptionally well. And unlike Theoklitos he more often hung onto the ball when saving, which was impressive in such soggy conditions!
March 7th 2012 @ 1:18pm
Nelson said | March 7th 2012 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
FC Tokyo simply didn’t let Brisbane play to their potential. Not only that, but they far out-played Brisbane at their own game, in conditions not suited to that style of play. At no stage after the first couple of minutes did Brisbane look like they were going to win. Until the first goal came, a hold-out draw was at best I could see them getting, unless they lucked a goal against the run of play.
March 7th 2012 @ 3:22pm
Nathan of Perth said | March 7th 2012 @ 3:22pm | Report comment
Agree with that, FC Tokyo definitely played the style better and Brisbane will hopefully learn a lot from it.
March 7th 2012 @ 9:17am
Qantas supports Australian Football said | March 7th 2012 @ 9:17am | Report comment
The Roar were naive last night and cop a hiding—or a lesson in football perhaps a better description—fantastic result as far as I’m concerned their supporters have been brought back down to earth and deservedly so…
March 7th 2012 @ 9:22am
West Sydney said | March 7th 2012 @ 9:22am | Report comment
Hopefully the comaprisons people are making between the roar and barcelona will fade away now
March 7th 2012 @ 9:21am
JohnL said | March 7th 2012 @ 9:21am | Report comment
Fuss, I’m curious as to why you think Roar’s possession game isn’t practical but a lofty ideal. In reality, the team with the ball has more chance of scoring then the team that doesn’t. (I am sure that when Tokyo scored both their goals that had possesion of the ball). So the Roar play a possession game to give them more chance of scoring. That to me sounds practical. I am yet to see a team win a game when they have had no possession of the ball.
Where the Roar needs to improve is their usage of that possession. We need to move the ball faster – Smith, Adnan and Paartaluu last night were not moving the ball fast enough and having too many touches for my liking. Secondly, we need to start playing the ball more beyond the opponents to penetrate the space between each defensive line. Quite often Paartaluu and Murdocca where receiving the ball in front of Tokyo’s front men. This was doing nothing to get the ball into midfield and further.
So, the Roar dont need to give up their possession game, they need to adjust how they use that posession.
Even teams that sit back and play counter attack, know that to score, they need to use the possession they do have, wisely. We can’t rely on the opposition to score own goals for us now, can we?
Ange has just seen first hand what a team playing possession football can do – Tokyo. They played very similar to the Roar in keeping possession, moving the ball around the park. But they were more effective with their possession. I doubt there would be many supporters in aust complaining if their team played a possession game like Tokyo week in, week out.
March 7th 2012 @ 9:48am
Fussball ist unser leben said | March 7th 2012 @ 9:48am | Report comment
JohnL
The Roar’s possession game is a fantastic ideal and I want all HAL clubs and our NT to adopt such a style.
However, when the opposition is top quality, possession football requires excellent technical players, who are capable of keeping possession and, in my opinion, BRI does not have such players.
In particular, BRI’s defenders have poor 1st touch (Adnan may be the exception but he’s a bit too casual at times) and their passing accuracy greatly diminishes when they’re under pressure.
The Roar’s biggest strength is their impeccable match fitness – they’re the hardest working team I’ve seen in 7 years of HAL football. This means they are constantly running into open spaces & if the opposition cannot maintain the pressure on the BRI ball player then BRI can play its passing game b/c their poor 1st touch is not a burden and their stray passes will not punished.
However, Tokyo matched BRI for the whole 90 mins and BRI showed how brittle their game is when they are pressured.
BRI style produces bountiful rewards and lots of risk and, in the ACL competition, risk minimisation is the key to success – particularly in the knock-out stages and playing away from home in the Group stages.
March 7th 2012 @ 9:21am
jmac said | March 7th 2012 @ 9:21am | Report comment
yeah I tend to agree. it was clear that both broich and berisha were being looked after comfortably, but ange appeared to do nothing to try and change this. without those two getting space, bris will go nowhere in attack. and so it was.
March 7th 2012 @ 8:39am
MVFC said | March 7th 2012 @ 8:39am | Report comment
Not as easy as you thought, hey Brisbane.
March 7th 2012 @ 9:15am
The Bush said | March 7th 2012 @ 9:15am | Report comment
I just wish I’d put some money on FC Tokyo – did anybody see the odds before the game started? $1.50 to the Roar and $5.50 to FC Tokyo…. Still gambling against my own team is not something I am usually into…
Difficult game for the Roar, they never really looked like scoring and when FC scored in the last minute or so of the first half it didn’t come as a surprise to me or my brother.
Unfortunately our key players never really looked that threatening, my brother passed comment that Broich was playing to wide and even to my less-trained eyes, he didn’t look up to it last night.
The flurry of yellow cards towards the end of the game was disappointing too.
One thing that was impressive was the number of travelling FC Tokyo fans – they added a great element to the atmosphere.
P.S. Brisbane City should be congratulated for coming out in such great numbers on such an average, Tuesday Night, especially with the Rugby seasons back on and a Cricket final just last weekend.
March 7th 2012 @ 12:54pm
Melanie Dinjaski said | March 7th 2012 @ 12:54pm | Report comment
Agree! 12,000 on a weekday with the other codes kicking off already, was a good turnout!
I have a feeling Broich will step it up in the next match, but he was very well marked by Tokyo. Gave him such little room to move. Guys with international experience like Berisha and Broich I reckon will kick into gear soon enough though.
March 7th 2012 @ 1:40pm
Nathan of Perth said | March 7th 2012 @ 1:40pm | Report comment
Very good turnout, hopefully they can keep it up as well!
March 7th 2012 @ 9:28am
jmac said | March 7th 2012 @ 9:28am | Report comment
overall this doesn’t come as a great surprise when you consider brisbane’s frailty against teams with a good press (ie any decent team from korea or japan) has been exposed before, as well as their reliance – despite all the postulations about their great ‘system’ – on broich to create anything, as well as a fragile defence at times.
brisbane and ange have definitely taken the game forward in australia by trying to play in this way, but it is naive to think we don’t have a long way to go compared to these east asian teams.
I always thought CCM would do better in this comp with their compact style and positive transition, but they have a horrow draw I think? perhaps it will be the reds again to fly the flag..
March 7th 2012 @ 9:47am
jbinnie said | March 7th 2012 @ 9:47am | Report comment
Interesting comments,some close to the intricacies of playing a successful “possession game” others a total waste of space,contributing nothing to sensible debate. FC Tokyo, were a competent,disciplined side that stuck to their game plan all night and it paid off. No-one in the comments so far has mentioned the number of times their centre forward was caught offside (terrible mistake???) and yet in his “positioning” he was actually stretching the Roar team lengthways ,so much so that for long spells in the game Paartlu appeared to be playing centre-half he was playing so far back on the field.The space this was causing made Murdocca and Visconte play much deeper than was healthy for the team’s overall game plan and in turn caused a huge gap causing Broich and Henrique to come back looking for the ball and the workhorse at centre forward was left isolated.
What to take out of the game for Roar? They have to pick up their transition from defence to attack in 2 ways,they have to move the ball much more quickly,their “successful passing accuracy” has to be lifted,this in 2 ways, by improving the actual pass and by creating better targets for the passer by moving constantly so presenting better targets.Viewing a tape of this game will work wonders, for the Japanese did this very successfully as soon as they got possession.
Roar outclassed? no,outplayed, by a team I suspect were playing the game in the manner Ange would like the Roar to be playing.Despite the score an interesting game and no doubt a learning curve for Roar who must now lift their game to a level they have sometime achieved in spasms but never as consistently as FC Tokyo last night. jb
March 7th 2012 @ 11:24am
Nathan of Perth said | March 7th 2012 @ 11:24am | Report comment
I think it will be a good development and learning experience for the Roar. Testing more of our teams out in the ACL can only be a good thing.
March 7th 2012 @ 10:40am
TK said | March 7th 2012 @ 10:40am | Report comment
Bit negative Mel. It is after all a champions league and it was always going to be interesting to see how our A-League champions competed against their Asian conterparts. Yep, we got shown up and Brisbane clearly lacked pace and penetration and had a bit of an ordinary day out in defence against a classy opposition. It was a good game to watch though, with real possession football on display. I disagree with your assertion that Brisbane resorted to long ball’s – given the pressing that the opposition were employing, the midfield were playing some passes over the top of the backline for roar flanking players to run onto – but I wouldn’t have classed them as ‘long balls’ which I regard more as a hit and hope tactic. Brisbane did get scrappy in the last 15 minutes or so – but no need to be so down on them, you are after all supposed to be supporting the Australia teams in the competitiion and your article seems a bit harsh after only one game out.
No doubt Brisbane were outclassed and the goal in the first half was only a matter of time, though the way Tokyo got possession in open space off a big ricochet off a roar player was fortunate – the finish from that point on was clinical and caught the defence out by a yard.
Great to see so many Brisbane and Tokyo fans turn up and I only wonder how many more might have attended if whoever is responsible for marketing these games actually did something. I and fellow fans were disgusted at the lack of advertising of the match – apart from a bit of coverage on the video screen at the two games leading up to the match (which I suspect occurred because we lobbied the roar to do it), there was no print or electronic marketing that we could find. So much for engaging with the grass roots football community. If you don’t let people know that the game is on, you can’t expect them all to find out for themselves. I know this is a bit of a soap box of mine – but seriously, whoever was in charge of marketing this match should go and have a good hard look at themselves in the mirror. It was a lost opportunity.
On a positive note – hats off to the ‘Brisbane Stadium’ staff too for letting people reloacte to other areas out of the rain – common sense prevails !!
Good on Adelaide for notching up a win and good luck to the Mariners in China.
March 7th 2012 @ 1:07pm
Melanie Dinjaski said | March 7th 2012 @ 1:07pm | Report comment
It was a good game, you’re right.
Tokyo were a joy to watch.
I suppose a majority weren’t “hit and hope” long balls but Theokltios, Adnan, Smith all did plenty of those too. Still, the ball was lobbed in the air from defence to the forwards more often than I was used to seeing them do in the A-League. And not being something they do often, their execution was off. I think in the second half I recall a good example when Luke Bratten received the ball in the left pocket, took one touch and unable to keep it under control, he was dispossessed by the Tokyo player in close proximity. Also their set pieces were pretty ordinary.
I know the article does come off as harsh, but its because I don’t believe they didn’t played to a level we know they can play to. There were flaws there and maybe a lack of confidence. Postecoglou put it down to nerves though, so I’m hoping they learn from the game and take it up a notch in the next fixture.
I really want them to succeed in Asia. It’s a huge test but if they come out better for it, it’s exciting to think how it might improve their game even more.
March 7th 2012 @ 1:54pm
TK said | March 7th 2012 @ 1:54pm | Report comment
I agree the set pieces were ordinary – in fact it is something we were discussing at the game that Brisbane have not executed set pieces very well this year, especially corners. In terms of long balls – my take was that there were definately some more ‘defensive clearances’ required last night – this just a result of the additional pressure the Tokyo employed for the whole game, where at times the Roar having finally learn’t from experience, that sometimes you just need to bite the bullet and get the ball out of there, no matter how ugly.
On of the biggest differences I saw, which happens throughout A league games when the Roar play, is the lack of support from midfield when attacking opportunities present themselves around halfway.This resulkts in players with the ball being isolated without options, and having to play backwards to midfield, instead of having options of playing the ball forward to players runnng through in support. The Roar often get the ball in space to attack forward, but go square of backwards because the midfield are slow in getting forward in support and providing attacking options, so the forward momentum peters out. Barisha was marked out of the game last night and when he got the ball, there was noone to play off to when he was facing away from goal. Tokyo on the otherhand, when they attacked, did so at pace and in numbers.
March 7th 2012 @ 12:10pm
Nathan of Perth said | March 7th 2012 @ 12:10pm | Report comment
Something to consider when comparing A-League to J-League, according the J-League’s site, average revenue of a J2-League club is 894m yen, which comes to over $10m Australian. A J1-League club is 3.3b yen, or over $38m Australia, with average wage bills of $19m, about eight times our salary cap.
Let us all be clear, NSL or A-League, when it comes to taking on the ACL and ESPECIALLY when taking on the J-League, we are outgunned, mates. Any result is a phenomenal effort.
March 7th 2012 @ 12:50pm
Matsu said | March 7th 2012 @ 12:50pm | Report comment
Nathan,
You certainly are not the first to be misled, but its time to put the “cashed up J.League clubs” issue to rest. Even someone who doesnt know the details of how the financial data gets reported in Japan can see why comparing a J.League club’s TOTAL REVENUES to an A-League club’s total player salaries would be misleading. However it gets a lot worse. First of all, Japanese clubs do not own their own stadiums, so even though the total gate revenues are listed in the revenue column, this number doesnt even come close to the actual “net revenues” the team gets from the game. They have to pay for the cost of using the stadium, as well as personnel costs for all the workers at the stadium on the night, as well as a lot of other incidentals. The figures vary greatly depending on the size of the club and their overall scale of revenue, but on average, the figure for personnel costs (wages) is usually only about 1/2 to 2/3 of the team’s total expenditures.
It gets worse.
Most other leagues (and Im pretty sure the A-League is one), when they list their total wages, are only including PLAYERS. When J.League clubs list total wages the figure includes not only players, but also head coach, and a 20-50 person coaching staff (because every team has not only a top team but also U-18, U-15 and U-12 teams, in FC Tokyo’s case, three separate Jr. Youth teams) The figure also includes the salaries of the team administrators, secretaries, office workers, trainers, groundskeepers for the training facilities, and even the janitors and waterboys. By the time you get to the players you could be talking about as little as 50% of the total wage bill (though obviously with huge variations depending on the size of a club).
Please folks – banish this “cashed up J.League clubs” myth once and for all. The J.League clubs do have more money – thats a fact. But the gap is not nearly as big as people keep making out. Repeating the same sad story every single year, after a tough loss, only makes you look like sour losers.
Stick to the comments about sharpening up the skill level. If Brisbane players had been as precise in their passing as FC Tokyo, it would have been a very even contest. That isnt something that costs money. All it costs is time and effort
March 7th 2012 @ 1:39pm
Nathan of Perth said | March 7th 2012 @ 1:39pm | Report comment
I didn’t compare total revenues to player salary cap, I compared “player and others” to the salary cap and had the total revenue as a comparison point to the A-League, as most of us do have an idea of the revenue levels of A-League clubs (about $6m, less than J2-League teams). Now, I would strongly doubt that players are not taking the lion’s share of that players and others and no matter how you slice it, the average J-League club is outspending us on players by a factor of at least four. And that is nothing to say about the likes of Gamba Osaka, Nagoya Grampus and Urawa Red Diamonds who are probably further outspending us as they are outliers in terms of wealth.
And I would strongly suspect that “secretaries, office workers” and the like are NOT in that player bill as separate “Business” and “General” costs are listed for the clubs where such would be more likely found. But even if it is as low as half for the player salaries, I would point out that 4 times our salary cap is still a tremendous advantage.
And we don’t own our stadiums either.
Sour grapes, sore losers, a little of both (although you have to understand, even against continental opposition, the failure of the club that has racked up 2 wins and a draw against my own this year doesn’t cause me any personal discomfort), it doesn’t really matter because the J-League is still in a very strong position relative to the A-League and I certainly do envy them that success. They have done very well in trying circumstances and are an example to the rest of the AFC and in particular to Australia. If we are half so successful when the same age we will have done very well indeed.
I think its pretty well recognised in most sectors of Australian football that the J-League maintains a higher level of technical ability than the A-League does at present. That has a symbiotic relationship to the money, the skill level and professionalism feeds the finances and the finances feel the proficiency of the clubs. I have made comments pointing out that this is a good learning experience for Brisbane Roar and they clearly have a long way to go. The financials are a part of this, skills are also a huge part of it, but like I said, there is a symbiosis to the development there.
FC Tokyo deserved their win, they out-played Brisbane Roar and no one will deny that. The gap in quality was stark and undeniable. The Japanese team was a more professional outfit and patently they are currently where Brisbane would dearly love to be. And my comment is in large part related to showing how far we have to go. You can’t discuss meaningfully discuss armies without discussing logistics and you can’t meaningfully discuss the teams in question with their own logistics entering the discussion. The romanticism of football aside, the difference in resources will out and the Melanie’s optimistic 3-1 predictions aside, losses will be the typical result when an A-League club faces a J-League club and wins and draws will come from graft and surprise.
The FFA and the HAL have to chase the professionalism and skill of the J-League or else eventually the Blue Samurai will forever leave the Socceroos behind.
Finally, not to put too fine a point on it but time and effort do indeed cost money.
March 7th 2012 @ 1:59pm
Nelson said | March 7th 2012 @ 1:59pm | Report comment
Nathan, you are actually incorrect. That wages bill that gets bandied around for J-League teams does include salaries for all those other staff. I have seen them myself. These figures are public and easy to find.
March 7th 2012 @ 2:07pm
Nathan of Perth said | March 7th 2012 @ 2:07pm | Report comment
The footnote says “manager, coaches and other team staff”. It was the presence of non-team related wages that I was grumbling about, not things like managers, coaches, trainers, etc.
The figures I’ve been using are the ones publicly available on the J-League site: http://www.j-league.or.jp/eng/data/index_03.html
March 7th 2012 @ 2:18pm
Nelson said | March 7th 2012 @ 2:18pm | Report comment
It includes all the people that Matsu listed. And he would know, he’s been had links to the J-League and it’s administration since it’s inception or not long after, if I’m not mistaken.
March 7th 2012 @ 2:23pm
Nathan of Perth said | March 7th 2012 @ 2:23pm | Report comment
The point does remain that when their player, coach, manager, trainer, groundskeeper, secretary, canteen lady, administrator, physio, scouts, etc etc personnel budget is on average triple the size of the average A-League team revenue, in its entirety, that the difference is significant.
March 7th 2012 @ 2:35pm
Matsu said | March 7th 2012 @ 2:35pm | Report comment
Yes Nelson, thats correct. Or as I like to say: “Ive been following the J.League since before there was a J.League”. Nathan, Japanese clubs are set up quite different from clubs in Australia, and indeed, in most other countries. The wages bill includes all sorts of payments that you would not even be able to imagine. For example, since clubs do not own their own stadia, if they need to lay on extra security or hire people to organize the ushering/postmatch cleanup, that also gets included in the personnel costs of the club. (most of the time volunteers do this, but not ALWAYS).
The point I was making was that if you look at the data you linked, and dont understand what it is that you are looking at, you start making ridiculous comparisons that are nowhere close to the actual situation. Australian clubs may only make A$6m in total revenue, which looks like it is lower than a J2 club, but they dont have to EXPEND money on the things J.League clubs have to do. Last year for example, I know for a confirmed fact that the actual total PLAYER salary amounts of three J1 clubs were less than Y300 mn. That is below the A-League salary cap.
So when you make these wild claims about “cashed-up J.League clubs”, all you are doing is adding to the already poor reputation that A-League supporters have as a bunch of whiners and poor losers (NB: I didnt say thats my opinion, just that it is a very common perception in the rest of Asia)
March 7th 2012 @ 2:35pm
Nelson said | March 7th 2012 @ 2:35pm | Report comment
The most pertinent part of Matsu’s post: ” The J.League clubs do have more money – thats a fact. But the gap is not nearly as big as people keep making out. Repeating the same sad story every single year, after a tough loss, only makes you look like sour losers.”
March 7th 2012 @ 2:48pm
Nathan of Perth said | March 7th 2012 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
300mn yen is actually still a million dollars clear of the salary cap and I cannot help but doubt that anyone taking on J1 League with 3.5m allocated to player salaries will be competing for ACL spots (or much of anything else other than avoiding the drop zone).
“For example, since clubs do not own their own stadia, if they need to lay on extra security or hire people to organize the ushering/postmatch cleanup, that also gets included in the personnel costs of the club.”
As I said before, Matsu, we are in the very exact same situation as no A-League club owns their own ground and yes, we too are getting screwed by stadium management with exorbitant rents, lack of control over security, missing out on food and beverage revenue and various things like that.
So in the final balance, exactly what are you expending money on that we aren’t?
March 7th 2012 @ 2:48pm
The Cattery said | March 7th 2012 @ 2:48pm | Report comment
You two are having a bit of a go at Nathan while essentially backing up what he is trying to say. It’s a question of degree, but we can safely say that on average, the top J-League clubs get to spend 3 to 5 times what an A-League club gets to spend on its players. That sort of disparity allows you to have a team of 11 that are around the level of the best one or two players in most A-League clubs.
March 7th 2012 @ 2:51pm
Nathan of Perth said | March 7th 2012 @ 2:51pm | Report comment
Goodness me, you two, its not like I haven’t already said there was a clear skill differential.
I’m just also saying there is a resources differential too.
And Nelson, its not like the facts surrounding the story of each hard loss change from year to year. We’re many years behind the J-League in development and I eagerly look forward to the day that matches between our national league teams are as even and interesting as the matches between our national teams.
March 7th 2012 @ 2:54pm
Matsu said | March 7th 2012 @ 2:54pm | Report comment
Cattery,
Again, the figures you are using seem a bit excessive. For most J.League clubs the actual player salaries might be 2-3 times higher, but not 3-5 times higher unless you are talking a club like Urawa (who, for all their money, almost got relegated last year). Money is not the issue.
And how do you get the “money allows you to assemble a club that . . . .” In case you missed it, Tokyo played with a 100% domestic squad last night. None of their players were “paid mercenaries”, they were all home-grown kids who worked hard and developed their skills. The only significant foreigners on the team were left back in Japan. If you want to start comparing the populations of Japan and Australia, THEN you might have a valid argument, but money isnt what Tokyo used to build its squad.
March 7th 2012 @ 3:08pm
Nathan of Perth said | March 7th 2012 @ 3:08pm | Report comment
Are you suggesting money does not have an effect on domestic player development? That more trainers, more training time, better facilities, more scouting, more one-on-one development, simply having more lucrative contracts to convince kids growing up that this is a viable potential career has no impact?
And yes, as you point out, you have five times the population. If we sound like whiny, sore losers to you than I’m sorry, but do try and also see the issue from our side as well, because our most and least successful clubs are pegged against each other to give our league a chance to survive domestically, whilst we only come across your biggest and best in the ACL. I can see that when looking across the length and breadth of the J1-League with teams on one end with wage bases down around the 3.5m mark to offset the teams on the other end like Urawa Red Diamonds or Nagoya Grampus this is all incomprehensible and silly, but we only see the teams at the heavy-weight end. Now you said that all that is required is time and effort not money. Time and effort is what Brisbane Roar uses to gain the advantage against the rest of the A-League but however romantic the thought, simple graft is a weak reed to try and offset the power of the J-League teams.
Particularly as the J-League teams are no doubt expending every bit of extra effort and time they can spare as well, so we end up back at the key differences.
Yes, your teams are more skillful and organised and there is a gap in class between us. But you’re trying to tell us that teams like the English Newcastle or Everton should just use their effort and time to overcome the advantages of the Manchesters, Arsenals and Chelseas, but I would posit those clubs are keenly aware of the uphill battle, celebrate accordingly and accept their losses with a similar line of thought to this. You’re a great team and it will take more than hard work to top you.
March 7th 2012 @ 3:21pm
Nelson said | March 7th 2012 @ 3:21pm | Report comment
It’s not the expenditure, it’s that all these expenses are included in that figure of “Wages” that is bandied around by people who complain about the disparity between the leagues.
Fwiw, in the fan forum last night MVFC said they spend $4.2million on player payments last season, a further $2.5million in coaching and other football areas. So our salary cap isn’t as cut and dry a figure as what it seems.
So too is the “Wages” figure for J-League clubs not so cut and dry. You have to take out all those other personnel’s wages before you get to the true figure.
March 7th 2012 @ 3:33pm
Nathan of Perth said | March 7th 2012 @ 3:33pm | Report comment
There was a reason I used teams like about and around, not exactly and precisely, Nelson…
And I’m perfectly aware that with marquee payments Glory’s wage bill in total was a bit shy of 4m.
But if the $21m average per club that is going to non-team-personnel business costs and “General Costs” does not have its own significant Football Department component with on-field effects I would quietly suggest that the J1-League clubs rethink their approach to front-room administration.
March 7th 2012 @ 3:40pm
Nelson said | March 7th 2012 @ 3:40pm | Report comment
No one is denying that they money spent on players wages is significantly more.
Haha, there are many people that have significant issues with the J-League and J-League teams’ administrations!
The J-League is 20 years old as of this year. We’re only in Season 7. We have alot to accomplish in the next 13 years to be able to put 11 domestic players on the park that possess the ability of those 11 starters for FC Tokyo.
March 7th 2012 @ 3:40pm
Nathan of Perth said | March 7th 2012 @ 3:40pm | Report comment
http://www.j-league.or.jp/eng/data/2011/03-13.pdf <– Of course, according to this, the proportion of the wage bill assigned to Those Which Are Not Players may be getting slightly overstated here.
$9m average on Japanese players, 2009 J1 clubs, $5.5m average on foreign players.
And of course, being able to afford that much for your local players allows you to retain better players instead of seeing top players being recruited elsewhere.
“The J-League is 20 years old as of this year. We’re only in Season 7. We have alot to accomplish in the next 13 years to be able to put 11 domestic players on the park that possess the ability of those 11 starters for FC Tokyo.”
Christ almighty, Nelson, this is almost exactly what I’ve been saying across the majority of the football tab this morning. I’m getting accused of sour grapes and sore loserism (and I mean its not even my team that lost, for god’s sake) when for the most part that’s all I’m saying.
…
Why do I get the sinking feeling that you and Matsu didn’t even read my comments before replying to them?
March 7th 2012 @ 3:58pm
Nelson said | March 7th 2012 @ 3:58pm | Report comment
I’ve been reading them, but just wanted to put the money issue into a bit clearer perspective, along with Matsu I’m sure.
The claims of “cashed up Asian clubs” made by our media and the fans of our clubs is one that rankles alot of Japanese football supporters in particular because it puts down all the hard work that they’ve invested in the game for 2 decades.
That’s all! Peace!
March 7th 2012 @ 4:05pm
Nathan of Perth said | March 7th 2012 @ 4:05pm | Report comment
Its not putting down the hard work of two decades, its pointing at the *results* of two decades of hard work, with no small amount of admiration and envy…
March 7th 2012 @ 4:15pm
Matsu said | March 7th 2012 @ 4:15pm | Report comment
Nathan, I assure you I am reading your comments. But heres the thing:
If money were everything, Urawa Reds would be the J.League champion every year. Instead they nearly got relegated last season. Meanwhile, the J.League club that has won 16 major titles in 20 years is usually ranged around 7th or 8th in the money rankings. How do they do it? Good management, careful team development, shrewd selection of/scouting of players, and practice, practice, practice.
More importantly, though, when you get so caught up in the discussion of how so-and-so has more resources than you do that you end up creating a 100-post thread on the topic, outsiders cant HELP but get a negative impression. The negative impression definitely isnt helped by coaches who boast publicly about winning the whole tournament before theyve even played a single match . . . . But of all the factors that cause “The Rest of Asia®” to have such a negative impression of Ozzies, its the incessant post-match excuse-making that really tops the list.
Melanie has half a point when she says that Ange’s pre-match boasts were a “natural part of the game” in Australia, but if A-League fans really want to be accepted and appreciated in “The Rest of Asia®” , they need to learn a bit more about Asian norms and keep the boasting and excuse-making for their domestic matches. As foreign coaches are warned on the first day they take over a J.League club: “dont ever try to make an excuse in the postmatch interview, unless it is to criticise your own side”. (and even that can often be seen as less than sportsmanlike, by Asian viewers). The second the excuses start, youve lost the respect of any Asians who happen to be listening. And what you need to realise is, most of them ARE listening even though few take the time to respond, the way I do.
Id prefer to see Australia become an AFC member that is valued and respected by every football fan in Asia. Sadly, that isnt the general view at the moment and until the lame excuses stop, the situation wont get any better.
March 7th 2012 @ 5:05pm
Nathan of Perth said | March 7th 2012 @ 5:05pm | Report comment
Matsu, respectfully, the thread was almost entirely about Brisbane Roar being outplayed with just the one post pointing out the uphill climb against a Japanese team and then that component ballooned because the idea that the difference in financial resources may have been a factor in the result was derided, which is something I cannot begin to wrap my head around. In the time that this part of the thread was discussed an equal number of comments pointing out that FC Tokyo played the game plan better than Brisbane and that Brisbane need to and should learn from this experience (myself making comments among them). If you look at ANY of my other comments on the issue I have never shied away from the fact that FC Tokyo outplayed Brisbane and did not at any point attribute that to the money beyond the one post (and of course the follow-on discussion) which in all honesty was more aimed at wishing we could call on similar resources to the NRL or AFL rather than directed at the J-League per se. And do be honest Matsu, there are many influences and factors which feed into an on-pitch result and the disparity of resources is one.
As for the cultural irritation, as much as, and I do take your word at face value on this, as much as anything that smacks of excusing away a defeat causes a loss of respect for us, it should also be considered that when someone picks out the fact that the financial disparity is mentioned in amongst a thread as something completely disrespectful and indicating that nothing bar acknowledgement of FC Tokyo’s superiority (and even not criticising Brisbane Roar) is to be expected with no analysis of factors that might lead to that superiority beyond their hard work and effort, well that sort of thing has its own negative connotations in an Australian context that may rankle local supporters.
I would also love for Australia to be a valued and respected member of the AFC. However, as much as I would love to see that I don’t think we’ll ever get past the stage where half of Asia doesn’t hold our presence in the AFC to be completely unnatural and wrong, let alone value us as a member thereof.
March 7th 2012 @ 6:11pm
Roarchild said | March 7th 2012 @ 6:11pm | Report comment
It’s true that money isn’t everything or the Roar wouldn’t be in the ACL (Roar 2m on players vs Victory 4.2m) but it gives you a fair idea of the expected result and bucking that restraint is the exception not the rule.
The Roars player budget has to improve (along with pathways) if we want to challenge Japanese clubs consistently.
Add Sarota, Mckay, Devere, Oar and Zullo back into the team (Roar Juniors lost to overseas) and there is a lot more depth and quality.
Even just Mckay and Devere from last seasons team would be a huge improvement but they are now playing in Korea.
Add Kruise and Sasha and we are really talking but in Kruise’s case we can’t really blame money for his departure.
March 7th 2012 @ 8:47pm
Matsu said | March 7th 2012 @ 8:47pm | Report comment
Oops. Wrong comment thread
March 7th 2012 @ 9:25pm
dasilva said | March 7th 2012 @ 9:25pm | Report comment
Pointing out financial disparity is not disrespectful to the J-league. in fact it shows that the competition is well run and well supported and that Japan is a proper football nation.
japan success is not just due to money but the way they used money for success. Such as using money for youth development. However developing a good youth development system requires money right? Making sure the talent you develop remains in the j-league requires money as well. J-league also shows clever recruiting where they usually pick either young or unproven talent and they ended up shining in the league instead of cashing up and buying aging superstars (such as what you find with the gulf nations). However a good scouting network to get the right players also requires a bit of money. Of course it’s not everything as the likes of UAE whose club buy superstars such as Luca Toni would dominate the ACL but that doesn’t happen. It all plays a part
this isn’t a slight against the J-league as they deserve the financial disparity over the a-leauge due to them being a well run league. They deserve that to reflect the results.
In any case, if an Australian club defeats a J-league club, I consider that to be a major upset and a great achievement. I’m not saying that to disrespect the j-league
March 7th 2012 @ 2:11pm
West Sydney said | March 7th 2012 @ 2:11pm | Report comment
ahhh Boo Hoo Nathan of perth you can keep crying poor for these a-league clubs vs the J-league clubs.
in Japan they value football above all, and they invest their money in their passion.
We Australia, waste our dollars on rogue sports such as AFL NRL and rugby union cricket, all before football.
had we made football our number one priority we would be on par $$$ with most leagues of the world.
March 7th 2012 @ 2:18pm
Nathan of Perth said | March 7th 2012 @ 2:18pm | Report comment
This would be a good time to point out that their J-League clubs earn an eighth to a quarter of what their baseball clubs earn. Gee, sounds like a similar situation.
If they had made football their number one priority they would be on par with many continental leagues.
If we had made football the number one priority our league would be the size of the AFL, i.e., about the size of the J-League now.
Gee, you’d almost think we’re dealing with one of the few actual remaining world powers or something.
March 7th 2012 @ 2:37pm
The Cattery said | March 7th 2012 @ 2:37pm | Report comment
West Sydney
The Nippon Baseball League is the biggest sporting comp in Japan by a country mile, in fact, it has the second largest aggregate attendances in the world of any sport, behind only MLB.
The J-League would be in second plance, although Sumo wrestling is still considered to be the national sport.
All that aside, the J-League benefits from being part of a major economy, the second largest in the world, and a population base over four times that of Australia.
Japan and the J-League is well on the way to challenging a competition like the Eredivisie in terms of resources and quality of players. It’s a big ask for Australian clubs to compete with that, but we should he happy that we in fact do get the chance to challenge ourselves on a regular basis, even if snatching the odd win against Japanese clubs is an elusive goal.
As for rogue sports such as the AFL and NRL, as many on the Roar would attest, only blokes incapable of playing soccer take up such sports, so they don’t make an impact.