Welsh are capable of beating the Wallabies in Australia
By Paul Cully, 22 Mar 2012
- Tagged:
- British and Irish Lions Tour, David Pocock, France Rugby, International Rugby, Michael Lynagh, Rugby Union, Sam Warburton, Six Nations rugby, Wales Rugby Union, wallabies, Will Genia
Australia's James O'Connor is tackled by Wales' Toby Faletau. AP Photo/Rob Griffith
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After 62 minutes of a hard, engrossing Test between Wales and France at Millennium Stadium on Saturday, the visitors tried to spark one of their sporadic but menacing counter-attacks with the scoreboard favouring the Welsh at 13-6.
Replacement fullback Jean-Marcelin Buttin took a flat ball in midfield where rumours of space were beginning to emerge. For a second it looked like he might get in behind the Welsh.
Then came the collision.
It sounded like a clap of thunder through the microphone of referee Craig Joubert, an eyewitness nearby. It was the thud of Welsh blindside flanker Dan Lydiate closing the door in Buttin’s face with such velocity that it lifted Welsh lock Ian Evans off his feet as Buttin ricocheted into him and spilt the ball.
It was the tackle that would have been heard in North Sydney. Not since the England side of 2002-2003, has the northern hemisphere supplied a team that threatens the southern superpowers quite the way Wales do.
Little wonder that Michael Lynagh, who works as an analyst for Sky Sports in the UK, said this in the aftermath of Wales’ Grand Slam win: “Wales are certainly capable of beating Australia this summer.”
Praising northern hemisphere sides is a precarious business, but you can admire them without being either a deluded apologist or on the payroll. Lydiate is one of seven Welsh players who are, on current form, superior to their Wallaby counterparts.
It is a rather crude analytical tool, but in a hypothetical XV, five positions would be locked down by Australians and the remaining three would be decided either by a brawl or a toss of the coin. Let’s start with the positions where the Welsh have the edge.
The Welsh scrum is the finest in Europe, with tight-head Adam Jones far in advance of any Australian cornerstones. In the second row, Alun Wyn-Jones has matured into the sort of engine-room powerhouse the Wallabies thought they were getting with the return of Dan Vickerman.
At No.8, the bruising Toby Faletau grabs the jersey on the back of another hard-shouldered display against France. Radike Samo is fine in open spaces but he had an underwhelming World Cup and Wycliff Palu simply needs to string some games together.
On the blindside Lydiate, an inspirational tackling machine, is ahead of Scott Higginbotham not on talent but on what he has done with it. Higginbotham, with that imposing chassis, is not the yet dominant force his potential suggests he can be.
In the centres, there is no reason to split the partnership of Jamie Roberts and Johnathan Davies, a mix of brute power and classy touches. And they are only going to get better. Roberts is still only 25 and at 109kg gets over the gainline like no other back in world rugby. The Wallabies are still searching for their midfield.
On one wing would lurk the 110kg George North, whose surprisingly light feet and security under the high ball makes him much more than just a bulldozer.
Stephen Moore is the first of the Australian probables, at hooker, although he is not at the level which prompted Sean Fitzpatrick to crown him the world’s best a few years back.
Among the backs, the peerless Will Genia, who was wonderful against the Sharks at the weekend, commands the No.9 jersey. Mike Phillips is a brute, but no one runs the game or sees the space like Genia. Pray for his continued health, because there is a long way down until the next best.
James O’Connor occupies the No.10 spot, because room must be made for that footwork and pace. In addition, Rhys Priestland’s form has been poor at times during the Six Nations. He looks a little weary.
Digby Ioane rediscovered something close to his best form in Durban and is a certainty for the No.11 jersey, dubious tackle technique notwithstanding.
At fullback, the powerful claims of Leigh Halfpenny, admired recently by Roar colleague David Campese, must regrettably be ignored. Without Quade Cooper we must look elsewhere for a little magic and it comes in the form of Kurtley Beale – if those worrying series of injuries clear up.
Now things become particularly heated.
At openside David Pocock would be in the team by Monday but by Tuesday Sam Warburton’s all-round game would prompt a re-think. On Wednesday a coaching meeting is required to see who wants to flip a coin. They are that close.
Getting caught at the wrong side of the ruck is among the little flaws that are holding James Horwill back from the pinnacle. It is difficult to look innocuous standing at 200cm and 118kg in a bright yellow jersey. But his experience probably gives him the start ahead of Ian Evans, whose injuries have kept him back until now.
On the loose-head side of the scrum Gethin Jenkins and Benn Robinson share technical excellence at the set-piece and a scavenger’s instinct at the breakdown. But Robinson is still on the comeback from that injury and Jenkins’ extra mobility might appeal.
It is fitting that we finish on a call that could go either way.
Of course, no one can predict the state of Welsh minds and bodies when they touch down in Australia for the three June Tests. Already, an injury cloud is hanging over Warburton, who admitted his body has been “creaking” since the World Cup.
They practically jumped straight off the plane from New Zealand and into club duties and have been playing ever since.
But this Welsh side is good enough to beat the Wallabies in Australia.
Can they win twice and take the series? Perhaps we need to flip another coin. A series win might have to wait until the following year, when many of the Welsh team will return as part of the British and Irish Lions.
Paul Cully is a freelance journalist who was born in New Zealand, raised in Northern Ireland, but spent most of his working life in Australia. He is a former Sun-Herald sports editor, rugby tragic, and current Roar and RugbyHeaven contributor.
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March 22nd 2012 @ 5:03am
Ben S said | March 22nd 2012 @ 5:03am | Report comment
‘Not since the England side of 2002-2003, has the northern hemisphere supplied a team that threatens the southern superpowers quite the way Wales do.’
Strongly disagree with this. Ireland and France have produced some excellent sides during that period.
Wales, despite their win, still have an awful lot to prove down south. They didn’t exactly dominate the 6N, tbh. Anyway, to cut a long story short they certainly are capable of beating Australia, yes, and they are probably more capable than they have been in a good while. They have some fine, fine players, and greater depth than they have probably ever had in the professional era. This is good for the game, but I wager the usual naysayers will come out citing previous records, which totally misses the point… I’m very much looking forward to the games. They will be massive for Wales and also Robbie Deans after what happened in the WC.
March 22nd 2012 @ 6:44pm
Jiggles said | March 22nd 2012 @ 6:44pm | Report comment
Got to Agree, I think France and Ireland have put out better teams since the 2002-03 England team, who I rate as the best ever international team of the professional era.
Wales are a talented team, but I think they have a bit to prove especially against the 3N teams who they haven’t beaten at away from home for a while, but like you said this is a totally different team to what we have seen.
Will the beat Australia? I don’t think they will win the series but they will beat us in a game which the press will call an ‘upset.’ It will go the same way all our ‘upsets’ have gone in the Deans era. The team totally underestimating the opposition and therefore getting dominated at the breakdown. Deans will hold onto his position despite bumbling through the Wales tour and Rugby Championship before being beaten 3-0 in the Lions tour.
March 22nd 2012 @ 8:52pm
Ben S said | March 22nd 2012 @ 8:52pm | Report comment
People would be right to question Wales after recent two performances against Australia, tbf, but as you say this is a new team (in theory anyway). I can’t see Wales winning the series, but if they are on the up then they need to win a game. The plucky loser tag can’t be waved about anymore. This is a good squad with high intentions. Massive for both sides, although I think it’s more significant for Deans.
March 23rd 2012 @ 4:15am
Jiggles said | March 23rd 2012 @ 4:15am | Report comment
Its going to be a bit of a strange series to be honest with a bit of context. if its a 3 nil win to Australia, it will be seen as more than business as usual despite the way we actually played, with the main stream media telling us that we have finally got our act together. If Australia loose a game Deans should really start to feel the pressure, and Wales will take the ‘moral’ victory leading into the Lions tour. The other variable is a possible loss to the Scotts in the first test of the mid year window, which is a real possibility. Either way I expect more of the same from the wales series this year, fumbling and bumbling, with no game plan, and a moment of brilliance from a young star.
With the probable lions pack you mentioned in the other thread, I doubt we can win that series in 2013 with Deans in charge.
March 23rd 2012 @ 4:30am
Ben S said | March 23rd 2012 @ 4:30am | Report comment
Equally, if Wales lose 3-0 then it’s more of the same ‘young and building and on the rise etc.’ Each side needs something tangible. All these media platitudes are boring. I think the same applies to England and SA this summer.
March 22nd 2012 @ 5:08am
wre01 said | March 22nd 2012 @ 5:08am | Report comment
I don’t think the Welsh will beat Australia unless the Wallabies are bad- you forget that Australia comprehensively outplayed the same Welsh team in Cardiff, this year, at a packed Millenium Stadium, on Shane Williams last test and following beating Wales at the RWC.
Warburton is nowhere near as good as Pocock yet- he did not come up against a genuine 7 throughout the entire Six Nations. O’Brien, Bonairre and Robshaw are all sixes and have no ability on the floor. On top of that, Warburton has nerve damage in his shoulder and is a week to week proposition injury wise. He doesn’t appear to be as durable as McCaw or Pocock.
Wales are by far the best 6 Nations side at the moment but this year was characterised by teams either in rebuilding phases (England/ Scotland) or teams refusing to dump the old for the new (Ireland/France). By and large, with the exception of England v Wales and also Ireland v Wales, the rugby played was nowhere near Trinations standard. I was at the Ireland v England game on St Paddy’s day, and despite the great atmosphere, it was one of the most terrible exhibitions of rugby I’ve seen. It was capped off by England taking 3 points while 19 up with 3 minutes to play.
The British and Irish Lions will beat Australia next year and I think Wales will push the southern hemisphere teams all the way in 2015 but they aren’t quite ready to beat Australia at home.
March 22nd 2012 @ 5:14am
Ben S said | March 22nd 2012 @ 5:14am | Report comment
It’s not the same Welsh team that played in December though.
Try and check out the highlights of when Warburton played against Pockock a season or two ago. Totally neutralised him.
March 22nd 2012 @ 5:15am
kingplaymaker said | March 22nd 2012 @ 5:15am | Report comment
I would disagree and would say Wales will be little short of a cakewalk.
This article bases its judgements of Welsh players on their performances against teams ranked between 4 and 12 in the world, and compares them to Wallaby players on their performances against teams ranked between 1 and 3. Sure Dan Lydiate and George North look great against a laughable French team or Scotland, but it’s rather harder to look good against Australia or New Zealand, as Wales discovered against an injury-ravaged Wallabies in the third place play-off.
The only northern hemisphere teams which threaten the Wallabies are those with POWERHOUSE PACKS that can outmuscle their undersized forwards. Now Wales’ pack is a powerhouse at scrummaging, but NOT in the loose. Ireland, England and France could threaten the Wallabies with their monstrous packs in the loose, but this is where Wales fall down and what will prevent them from threatening the Wallabies.
What’s more, while there is plenty of size in the backs, there is little creativity or any real talent. The whole backline is good, but none is a star. George North may look like a star against Scotland but would be chopped down with ease by the southern hemisphere teams.
In a combined XV, Wales would get their centres into the backline simply because Australia have no centres at all. If JOC were moved to 12, then they would only have one player in the backline. Neither of the Welsh wings is better than Drew Mitchell or Cooper Vuna, let alone Digby Ioane.
In the pack, only one or two of the props would make the Wallabies, depending on Benn Robinson’s fitness. To compare Sam Warburton against David Pocock is fantastical. Dan Lydiate is a deeply limited player who does little more than tackle, and with far less ferocity than he is credited for: Jean-Marcellin Buttin weighs 90kg.
Wales suffer from having many players who are quite good and almost none who are really good: no Henson or Shane Williams at present.
This is not to bag northern hemisphere rugby, as three teams could well threaten the Wallabies, but Wales looks to be the one that won’t.
March 22nd 2012 @ 6:36am
Ben S said | March 22nd 2012 @ 6:36am | Report comment
Re: Australian performances. You seem to be forgetting their recent results against Ireland and England, so compare like and like. Does Ireland have a POWERHOUSE PACK? Not sure it does.
You’ve never seen Wales dominate possession against Australia then?
If you don’t see the value in Lydiate then you’re revealing the fact that you’ve never been involved in forward play. He’s more than a defender, which is probably why his teammates rate him so highly.
I’m pretty sure that George North is better than Vuna. Pretty sure. I’m pretty sure that he’s scored against South Africa too. Did the Boks chop him down with ease?
You’ve made various references across various threads re: Pocock v Warburton, whilst ignoring the key fact that the last time they met Warburton totally and utterly neutralised Pocock.
March 22nd 2012 @ 12:38pm
PD said | March 22nd 2012 @ 12:38pm | Report comment
Wales are much better than you give them credit for and will be a good test for the wallabies this year. I have to disagree with your comment on Wales centres. Jamie Roberts is simply outstanding and has been for some time. He pushed Wales to almost upsetting South Africa at the WC and was brilliant during the last irish tour. IMO he will be giving Robbie Deans a big headache.
March 22nd 2012 @ 7:47am
Sam Taulelei said | March 22nd 2012 @ 7:47am | Report comment
As much as its a battle between the players its a huge contest between the coaches as well. Especially as they could be head to head again next year when the Lions tour.
This will be the series to watch in June and should attract widespread appeal and interest.
March 22nd 2012 @ 8:38am
Justin said | March 22nd 2012 @ 8:38am | Report comment
Well I dont even need to see Wales play to know who would win that coaching battle Sam
March 22nd 2012 @ 9:07am
Sam Taulelei said | March 22nd 2012 @ 9:07am | Report comment
Ha ha ha, how did you insert that smiley face Justin?
As a fan I hope that many of the Welsh players mentioned here by Paul make the flight to Australia and bring their “A” game with them.
All the past matches and match ups only serve to tell us what happened then but not necessarily what will happen in three months time. It is after all a contest and just because you lost or won in the past doesn’t guarantee the same result next time.
March 22nd 2012 @ 1:31pm
Justin said | March 22nd 2012 @ 1:31pm | Report comment
Sam the wink face is using the ; ) keys but without the space
March 22nd 2012 @ 9:29am
johnny-boy said | March 22nd 2012 @ 9:29am | Report comment
But we’ve got the worlds greatest coach and we are paying him a million dollars a year apparently to teach us how to play like the Crusaders ie don’t be adventurous just kick the ball to the opposition and see if they make a mistake.
March 23rd 2012 @ 12:11am
stillmatic1 said | March 23rd 2012 @ 12:11am | Report comment
and where did being adventurous ever get the wallabies, J.B? it would be a stretch to call any of the wallaby teams in the professional era adventurous under any coaching regime! so its a bit of a myth that the wallabies have been an adventurous team, certainly not in the last 20 years. may have had individuals, just like any team, who had the x-factor, but how could you say that it meant the teams philosophy was to be adventurous?
and if you class the Abs and crusaders as being conservative and lacking adventure, why do they consistantly win everything and often have the best try scoring rates, point scoring rates over the past 25 years? must be something in the water eh champ.
March 22nd 2012 @ 8:57am
kingplaymaker said | March 22nd 2012 @ 8:57am | Report comment
Justin in that case why are Australia number 2 in the world and Wales number 5, and why have Australia been above Wales for every year of the last four, and have Wales beaten Australia in that time or have Australia won every single encounter? And so who looks like the better coach on the basis of that?
March 22nd 2012 @ 9:30am
johnny-boy said | March 22nd 2012 @ 9:30am | Report comment
It’s because we’ve got great cattle.. just a useless coach
March 22nd 2012 @ 10:02am
kingplaymaker said | March 22nd 2012 @ 10:02am | Report comment
j-b when you say great cattle I assume you’re referring to Anthony Faiingaa, Dean Mumm and Pat Mccabe?
March 22nd 2012 @ 10:16am
johnny-boy said | March 22nd 2012 @ 10:16am | Report comment
Faiiinga is worth his weight in gold given the chance but yes I agree Deans does pick the wrong cattle some times – which is part of the reason we are not no.1.
It’s funny tho isnt it, O’Neill and Eales have absolutely no faith whatsoever in Australian rugby and insist we must do everything the kiwi way, and yet there is one thing the kiwis will never do and that is put an Australian in charge of the All Blacks, especially when they play the Wallabies. O’Neill and Eales are just sooooo smart they can’t see the wool being pulled over their eyes. If only they would pull their heads out ……
March 22nd 2012 @ 10:52am
kingplaymaker said | March 22nd 2012 @ 10:52am | Report comment
j-b the Wallabies are not number one because the current Wallaby cattle is laughable in comparison to the current All Black cattle.
March 22nd 2012 @ 11:24am
johnny-boy said | March 22nd 2012 @ 11:24am | Report comment
You’re entitled to ewe opinion KPM ….
March 22nd 2012 @ 11:35am
kingplaymaker said | March 22nd 2012 @ 11:35am | Report comment
And you j-b, I’m the last to deny anyone their opinion (for the record I think Australia DOES have the cattle, but they are plundered by the NRL when teenagers i.e. Barnes, Elsom, Waerea-H, Rapana, Saffy, Tupuo, Tomane and many, many others, because there aren’t enough Super teams to offer them places, but that’s another story).
March 22nd 2012 @ 1:33pm
Justin said | March 22nd 2012 @ 1:33pm | Report comment
And who is in charge of picking the cattle?
March 22nd 2012 @ 1:39pm
kingplaymaker said | March 22nd 2012 @ 1:39pm | Report comment
At the important level, the ARU. They pick the young cattle and offer them contracts, teenagers in NSW and QLD. These cattle then grow into the big cattle the national coach can pick. However, as the ARU don’t pick enough good young cattle, mainly because they don’t have enough Super places in NSW and QLD to offer them, then the national coach, whoever he is, only has very limited grown-up cattle to pick.
March 22nd 2012 @ 11:20am
Ben S said | March 22nd 2012 @ 11:20am | Report comment
You’ve already been told the last time Wales beat Australia. Is that why you mention the number four? So disingenuous…
March 22nd 2012 @ 9:16am
Brett McKay said | March 22nd 2012 @ 9:16am | Report comment
Paul, I’ll echo Michael Lynagh’s thoughts completely, Wales are certainly capable of beating Australia this summer.
Right at this point in time, Lydiate-Warburton-Falatau is comfortably in front of any backrow combination that Australia can come up with (I can’t even think what the best combo would be now), and let’s not even punish ourselves by thinking what a Welsh front row could do at scrum time.
Playmakers and fullback aside, the Welsh three-quarter line works well as a unit and has a massive benefit from having played a lot of rugby together, even with Cuthbert replacing Shane Williams this year. By contrast, the Australian 11-14 line has had more combinations in the last 12 months than your average safe.
Despite the difference in their rankings, I think the two teams are quite closely matched overall, and whoever emerges as the series winner in June will know that they’ve had to play superior rugby against a more than willing opponent. I’d sugest Wales will be harder to beat than South Africa this season. Simply, Wales think they can beat anyone, anywhere..
March 22nd 2012 @ 4:17pm
jeznez said | March 22nd 2012 @ 4:17pm | Report comment
Brett, make that an average hotel room safe
March 22nd 2012 @ 7:31pm
Brett McKay said | March 22nd 2012 @ 7:31pm | Report comment
Ha, thanks Jez, that’s actually what I thought I’d typed!!
March 22nd 2012 @ 9:48am
kingplaymaker said | March 22nd 2012 @ 9:48am | Report comment
Brett you’re always very generous and charming towards the northern hemisphere, but I haven’t seen the slightest evidence based on encounters between the teams to suggest Wales can win. The Wallabies team were destroyed by injury at the third place play-off and still won. In fact I can’t remember the last time Wales beat Australia.
I also think Pocock/Higginbotham/Palu would comfortably destroy Warburton/Lydiate/Falatau. Parts of the Australian backline may be inexperienced but Genia, Cooper, Barnes, JOC, Beale and Ioane all know each other well and mostly tower over their Welsh counterparts in talent.
I think there’s a good reason for the difference in rankings.
March 22nd 2012 @ 10:07am
Brett McKay said | March 22nd 2012 @ 10:07am | Report comment
KPM, November 2008 in Cardiff is the answer to your question, but it’s a lot longer than that in Australia.
My generosity and charm(?) in this case is well earned, for this current Welsh team are quite obviously a very well-drilled outfit. I watched about 90% of the 6Ns this season for a local ACT magazine, including all the Wales games, and while Ben is somewhat correct up the top in saying they “didn’t exactly dominate”, they were still undoubtedly the best team of the tournament.
I think if anything, you might be looking in the wrong place for the evidence you seek, and likewise, I tend to think you’re easily dismissive of what you shouldn’t have any trouble recognising as very good teams. There’s no shame in admitting there’s some very good rugby teams elsewhere in the world.
Your suggestion that “Pocock/Higginbotham/Palu would comfortably destroy Warburton/Lydiate/Falatau”, while patriotically admirable, is optomistically misguided on current form, in my humble opinion. I’ll say it again, I genuinely don’t know what the best Wallaby backrow combo would be now. The Welsh backrow, by comparison, could slot straight into a Lions team if one were picked tomorrow..
March 22nd 2012 @ 10:56am
kingplaymaker said | March 22nd 2012 @ 10:56am | Report comment
I try not to dismiss northern hemisphere teams, but there is often exaggerated praise of them based on performances against weaker teams than the top 3 that inhabit the southern hemisphere. So the W/L/F backrow look fine in the Six Nations and have fine ‘form’ at this level, but the southern hemisphere competition is a higher level which is why the 3 teams involved have been the top 3 in the world for many years now.
I fully expected France to give the ABs a test in the final as they have plenty of good players and when they turn up to a match can be very effective. I don’t think Wales has such good players though. Hence I go for 3-0, with at least one thumping. Perhaps the best thing in Wales’ favour now is Cooper’s injury.
March 22nd 2012 @ 11:09am
Brett McKay said | March 22nd 2012 @ 11:09am | Report comment
so perhaps your problem is that you’re watching the 5th ranked team in the world playing the 6th. Perhaps you’re putting too much emphasis on the rankings, and let them cloud your real thoughts of how a team is playing.
I was just watching Wales play France, and they were bloody excellent……
March 22nd 2012 @ 11:25am
kingplaymaker said | March 22nd 2012 @ 11:25am | Report comment
Perhaps, as there are three matches this year in these tours the case will be proven decisively. If Wales win then the ranking aren’t much of a way to judge, if the Wallabies win they are (I thought France were terrible in that match and the tournament, and Wales were average not to thrash them, but this will all be worked out come the tour).
March 22nd 2012 @ 11:37am
Brett McKay said | March 22nd 2012 @ 11:37am | Report comment
if you truly thought France were terrible in the 6Ns and that match against Wales, KPM, then there is no longer any doubt that I watch rugby differently to you…
March 22nd 2012 @ 11:48am
kingplaymaker said | March 22nd 2012 @ 11:48am | Report comment
BM I’m hardly alone in this: most commentators in the northern hemisphere thought France were appalling throughout the Six Nations: just read the northern papers online if you don’t believe me. France along with England has better players than the other northern hemisphere teams and could put out a southern hemisphere quality team if it wanted. However the selection is normally misguided and top players are left out, and under PSA the tactics have been primitive and disastrously ineffective. If France played to anything like their potential they would be a dominant world power, but this and the last coach have been awful. Some of the French play this year has been tragic to watch. The possible centre combination of Fofana and Bastareaud could be virtually the best in the world, but the latter is left out, while the former despite lighting up the tournament at 12 was inexplicably moved to the wing, one of the most bizarre selection decisions I have ever seen. That alone sums up France’s terrible plight.
March 22nd 2012 @ 12:09pm
Colin N said | March 22nd 2012 @ 12:09pm | Report comment
Brett, according to KPM France are only terrible when they lose to a fellow northern hemisphere side. If they lose to southern hemisphere opposition, it is because of the SH’s sheer brilliance and not France’s incompetence.
Anyway, without descending too much into a slanging match, it’s going to be a very exciting and intriguing tour. Wales have huge players throughout their 15. It could be their undoing as well as their strength though. Despite the backs being big, they’re pretty nimble so there’s no particular weakness to out-and-out pace, but I think they’ve been too one-dimensional in the Six Nations.
They lack another ball-player to complement Priestland and, particularly with Phillips being a phyical scrum-half, there is a lack of subtlety throughout. Hook improved things when he came on against Ireland and Scotland by adding width to their attack, but he’s not going to start unless there’s an injury.
I would have thought that Australia will look to play with pace and width (although the way Deans changed his tactics for the WC quarter and semi was simply bizarre), but question marks will be whether they get enough ball and how they counter Wales’ forward power. Can they break down a much improved Welsh defence and can they get the quick ball to get over the gainline regularly enough?
Also, when is Cooper back? Despite his critics, I think he’s the key to Australia. I presume his replacement would be Berrick Barnes and that would play into Wales’ hands.
March 22nd 2012 @ 12:22pm
kingplaymaker said | March 22nd 2012 @ 12:22pm | Report comment
Colin France since Lievremont have been often terrible, sometimes average and occasionally excellent when their players seem especially motivated. That has applied whoever they’re playing.
How well do you think France played in this Six Nations and under Lievremont?
March 22nd 2012 @ 12:38pm
Colin N said | March 22nd 2012 @ 12:38pm | Report comment
“Colin France since Lievremont have been often terrible, sometimes average and occasionally excellent when their players seem especially motivated. That has applied whoever they’re playing.
How well do you think France played in this Six Nations and under Lievremont?”
They we’re awful under Laporte as well, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t dismiss the opposition either. For example, the way the All Blacks dispatched France in 2009 (I think) in Marseille was wonderful. I think everyone agreed, despite France’s flaws, that New Zealand were excellent.
Similarly so, when England hammered France in the 2009 Six Nations, it was a superb English performance whatever France did wrong by selecting Chabal at seven etc.
France have a conservative league which transcends to the international arena, which is why they hired PSA and why he’s kept with the old guard. I’m guessing that the average age of the sides he had at Sale and Toulon was pretty high. The Toulon squad is effectively the retirement home of former internationals.
March 22nd 2012 @ 12:49pm
kingplaymaker said | March 22nd 2012 @ 12:49pm | Report comment
Colin I’ve long thought it would be interesting to see the effect of a foreign coach on France. French coaches seem to reinforce their potential problems, whereas a foreigner might try to fight such tendencies. However, France accepting a foreign coach is also the most unlikely thing imaginable.
I don’t want to go over the top in praising Jacques Brunel as I don’t think he is doing as well as Mallett did, but given the players he’s working with he seems to be doing better than PSA and he is French.
March 22nd 2012 @ 8:58pm
Ben S said | March 22nd 2012 @ 8:58pm | Report comment
Very good point re: second ball player, Colin. I imagine that Deans will have noticed England’s defensive performance against Wales with interest. One of the biggest (and remaining) issues under Gatland IMO has been how one-dimensional Wales are at times.
March 22nd 2012 @ 10:09pm
Colin N said | March 22nd 2012 @ 10:09pm | Report comment
KPM, there are some teams in the French league that play/played with verve and width. In simple terms, they are/were Perpignan, Clermont, Toulouse (at times) and Montpellier.
I say were because since Brunel left to coach Italy, Perpignan have been a shambles, but they played some great rugby with a primarily French squad.
Personally, I would like to see Vern Cotter, the Clermont coach in charge of France. He’s done wonders with them IMO and the way they destroyed Leicester earlier in the season was mightily impressive.
Guy Noves is someone who is heralded, but they have a tendency to bulldoze their way to victory at times and Galthie has completely reinvented Montpellier over the past couple of years.
March 22nd 2012 @ 10:26pm
Colin N said | March 22nd 2012 @ 10:26pm | Report comment
Ben, I’m still not sure as Gatland as a coach, but I admire the way he has gone about restructuring the side by bringing in younger players perhaps before they’re ready, but generally sticking with them.
For example, Prydie was never ready nor good enough for Test rugby when he was selected, but Cuthbert initially struggled in his first couple of games. Now he has really come into his own and looks a Test-standard winger. It’s going to be a real contrast to see the Welsh backs against the Australian backs!!! It will also fun if Wales can isolate Cooper and get Roberts, North, Davies and Cuthbert running into him.
Anyway, back to Gatland, and at least he has set out a clear structure, game-plan and a certain amount of professionalism to Wales, something that I believe had been lacking for a while in Wales.
This is in contrast to Deans, Mallet at Italy and PSA.
March 22nd 2012 @ 11:16pm
Ben S said | March 22nd 2012 @ 11:16pm | Report comment
Totally agree, Colin. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
March 22nd 2012 @ 12:37pm
rl said | March 22nd 2012 @ 12:37pm | Report comment
Brett, on current form I’d back the Western Force backrow to give it to the Welsh backrow. You could even call them our “low risk” option. Depending on form/injuries you could option-up with Palu, Samo, Higgers, Robinson, Lipman or even Saffy. I hold no fears about our backrow – at worst, Wales holds us in that area.
The centres don’t worry me too much either – can’t run without legs. An Aus centres combo from Barnes/JOC/Taps/AAC or even Inman will again be a “contain” at worst for us. George North is not, repeat NOT Jonah. Never will be. I may be old school, but what is that big sheila doing without a no. 6, 7 or 8 on his back?
It’s all down to the Aussie tight 5 – which one will turn up: the one from the Brisbane Bledisloe, or the one from the RWC? The Welsh 5 are tight-knit, highly skilled and very competitive in the physical confrontations, particuarly the first hit.
March 22nd 2012 @ 12:40pm
Colin N said | March 22nd 2012 @ 12:40pm | Report comment
Lipman has 10 England caps
March 22nd 2012 @ 12:41pm
kingplaymaker said | March 22nd 2012 @ 12:41pm | Report comment
Shame it wasn’t more: he always impressed me. Even more of a shame Rees didn’t get a chance to have more.
March 23rd 2012 @ 12:22am
Colin N said | March 23rd 2012 @ 12:22am | Report comment
Ironically, it was Lipman who ended up first choice openside during the 2008 Six Nations, but it was Rees who overtook him for the ill-fated 2008 tour to New Zealand three months later.
March 22nd 2012 @ 1:18pm
rl said | March 22nd 2012 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
Ha! I was consciously thinking “Chamberlain” as I was typing (have been impressed with him to date) but maybe I was subconsciously wishing for “Lipman”? Has he got Aussie grandparents??
March 22nd 2012 @ 1:27pm
kingplaymaker said | March 22nd 2012 @ 1:27pm | Report comment
rl in fact he’s Australian and qualified on residency.
March 22nd 2012 @ 1:37pm
Justin said | March 22nd 2012 @ 1:37pm | Report comment
Who are we talking here Lipman or Chamberlain?
Lipman is an Aussie who played for England and I rate him, tough but does slip off a few too many tackles going the monster hit sometimes.
March 23rd 2012 @ 10:41am
terrykidd said | March 23rd 2012 @ 10:41am | Report comment
Brett, a Wallaby Backrow picked from Pocock, Higginbotham, Palu, Elsom, and Samo is in my opinion at least the equal of the Welsh backrow and arguably is superior.
March 23rd 2012 @ 10:53am
Ben S said | March 23rd 2012 @ 10:53am | Report comment
The unproven Higginbotham, the totally out of sorts Elsom, the aged Samo and the perenially out of form and/or injured Palu? Lydiate, Warburton and Faletau have been pretty excellent in nearly all of their Test matches and have proven themselves against SA, Australia, France, England, Ireland etc. I genuinely believe the Australian back row is one of the worst back rows currently in the top tier of Test rugby.
March 22nd 2012 @ 9:50am
Sailosi said | March 22nd 2012 @ 9:50am | Report comment
I’d be asking the question, are the wallabies capable of beating wales?
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March 22nd 2012 @ 10:38am
SAMURAI said | March 22nd 2012 @ 10:38am | Report comment
I reckon on their day the Wallabies can beat Wales, but any-slips and they’ll be punished.
Of course, all this depends on how our players fare this Super 15 season, who knows if Pocock and O’Connor get injured. Hopefully those two will get an early exit from the comp…
March 22nd 2012 @ 10:45am
Rugby Fan said | March 22nd 2012 @ 10:45am | Report comment
If Warburton is forced to miss the tour, Justin Tipuric looks like he might be decent cover. Against France, Gatland chose to field Ryan Jones as a replacement but he may well start Tipuric if Warburton is ruled out completely.
I’m sure Wales have the players to beat Australia but the real test is whether they have the confidence to do so. Australian fans are quite right to doubt the Welsh on this front. The Wallabies were there for the taking in the World Cup third place play-off but Wales froze. Even the home crowd advantage meant nothing a few weeks later when the Wallabies again took the honours.
Wales showed the confidence to come from behind against both England and Ireland. It’ll be interesting to see if they can keep their heads up should the Wallabies get out to a useful lead. That’s often been the undoing of Northern Hemisphere teams: a lack of belief that they are still in a match against Southern opponents after conceding some easy points.
The risk for Australia is if they expect the Welsh to underperform only to find they have finally brought their ‘A’ game. The Wallabies are number 2 in the world but they have lost to both England and Ireland in recent memory so they don’t always get the results the rankings suggest.
March 22nd 2012 @ 11:15am
ohtani's jacket said | March 22nd 2012 @ 11:15am | Report comment
If the Welsh forwards can dominate the Wallaby pack then they should win at least one test match. The trouble for Wales is that it’s easier for the Wallabies to score tries than it is for Wales. The Wales only need a good 15-20 min patch to beat Wales, whereas Wales will need to grind out the entire match. It all hinges on how seriously Wales take the tour. That 2003 English side took their tour to New Zealand and Australia as seriously as the World Cup. The Wallabies are slow starters by and large and often look poor even in blowout wins. The Australian sides aren’t impressing at Super Rugby level and we have to wait and see about injuries. But you also have to consider that despite Wales’ onfield success their domestic game is in dire straits. Will it be a factor?
March 22nd 2012 @ 11:29am
kingplaymaker said | March 22nd 2012 @ 11:29am | Report comment
I’m sure Wales will take it deadly seriously: they’re a more dedicated and professional outfit than England and France can be on tour.
I doubt the Welsh forwards can dominate, and so long as the Wallabies treat them seriously it should be 3 straightforward wins-the Welsh backs offer size but not brilliance, the reverse of the Wallbies backs in fact.
The new three match tour format could expose some hard truths for the northern hemisphere teams. Ireland will have a seriously tough time in New Zealand, as far, far better teams do.