World Cup hangover for Kiwi franchises
By Vanilla Gorilla, 17 Apr 2012 Vanilla Gorilla is a Roar Pro
Melbourne Rebels players celebrate after defeating the Auckland Blues. AAP Image/Joe Castro
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You know that feeling: you build the night up, go out and put all your effort into having a good time and enjoying yourself, only to wake up in the morning feeling like you have been slapped in the face with a cold fish.
Yes, I am talking about the dreaded hangover. The next day is a right off; you cannot function.
Can this happen in sport? You bet.
It is happening right now in the New Zealand conference of the Super Rugby competition. Has anyone else noticed that the two teams stacked with All Black regulars, those involved with the World Cup the most, are struggling at the bottom of the conference?
Could these loaded teams be full of players who, after preparing extensively for and successfully breaking a 24-year curse, are not fully committed to this season?
It would not be surprising given their levels of effort for the last four years and the amount of celebration which occurred throughout a country which was just short of starting joyous riots in the streets.
The players were lauded no matter where they went; everyone wanted a piece of them. But now that they have reached the peak, they have conquered the demons created by past teams, are they simply cruising a bit now?
The other theory is that they are just too old; the All Blacks were a bit of a dad’s army in 2011 and these players are simply regressing with age. Not everyone can do a Brad Thorne.
I would expect the hangover to be far more severe for players involved with the All Blacks given the weight of expectation placed upon the team, so when the ultimate success is achieved the outburst of emotion and celebration is far greater.
If you do not believe me, watch the next All Blacks game and look closely at the final whistle. There is no celebration, just relief. This is a result of the pressure, they are just happy they won’t be crucified.
I am going to provide you with some statistical analysis in regards to their performances up until this point of the season, mainly because the Highlanders will probably fall over soon and completely destroy my theory and the Crusaders have a fly half debutant scoring all 31 points against a good sharks outfit.
I have broken this down into each team having players which you could describe as “key players,” those who played a significant role in the winning of the World Cup. “Fringe players” are those which were either on the bench or have been a contributing factor in the lead up to the World Cup and non-All Blacks, which is self explanatory.
Please keep in mind that the sample size for this experiment is incredibly small, given that we only win the World Cup every 24 years but the stats are indicative and a loose trend can be ascertained but it would require a larger sample size to help increase the reliability of the stats.
I should also point out that I have removed Richie McCaw from the sample given that he has not played, I could see Crusaders fans firing up about this, do not worry, I have it covered.
The preliminary analysis shows that there is nearly no effect to having non all blacks in your side as they only accumulate 0.11 losses per player this season. This would seem to make sense as they are not good enough to play for the country but can fill up the numbers… Just do not load up a whole team with them.
The surprise comes in the key players. It would appear, statistically, that there is a possibility that you could lose up to 0.68 games for every All Black regular you have on your side. Uh oh.
The season would seem to support this with Auckland misfiring badly, given they picked up two more All Blacks in the off season. Remember this is the same team, essentially, that won 10 games last year. The addition of two more All Blacks with a hangover has hurt them.
The Crusaders are also struggling with Carter and Richie out for large chunks of time, but they are still full of key players and have been struggling, only winning four games and not looking convincing in any of their victories.
The big benefit comes from the fringe player. Which players am I talking about? Guys like SBW, Slade and Vito. These are the players who appeared in fits and bits prior to and during the World Cup. They are still young enough to have a shot at the next one.
These fringe players are not as fatigued as their playing time was limited and they still have the goal of winning the World Cup again, it is still attainable in their rugby life. The statistics suggest that they are responsible for 0.95 victories per player. This would seem to make sense right?
You do not believe me? Here are the three top teams in the NZ conference to date:
Highlanders:
Key players – one (Thompson).
Fringe – three (Slade is now injured, Hore, Cowan).
Chiefs:
Key players – one (Kahui had a fair bit of game time).
Fringe – four (SBW, Cruden, Elliot, Messam).
Wellington:
Key players – two (Smith, Jane).
Fringe – two (Vito, Eaton).
The bottom two:
Crusaders:
Key players – six (Crockett, the Franks Brothers, Read, Dagg, Carter).
Fringe – four (Flynn, Donnelly, Ellis, Guildford).
Blues:
Key players – six (Nonu, Weepu, Woodcock, Kaino, Mealamu, Williams).
Fringe – two (Braid, Boric).
Given that this is not my day job, I do not have time to analyse other clubs or conferences, however I find this fascinating and I wonder if it happened in other countries like England.
It just seems to me that there is too much of a coincidence in this, the resemblance between the factors I mentioned previously and their current position is uncanny.
I am saying to you, if your team is not succeeding right now it may be due to the worst hangover any NZ rugby player has felt in 24 years. Give them a bit of time to recover, you know how they feel
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April 17th 2012 @ 1:47am
kingplaymaker said | April 17th 2012 @ 1:47am | Report comment
Some of those All Blacks, such as Nonu, Smith and Kahui, shouldn’t have been playing for the All Blacks last year anyway, so it’s not suprising they are even worse this year.
The generation shift will have to be a dramatic one if the All Blacks want to stay in top gear. Losing Kaino will be a problem, but the continued presence of Nonu and Smith and Kahui as a wing will be a greater issue.
April 17th 2012 @ 4:42am
Rugby Realist said | April 17th 2012 @ 4:42am | Report comment
Gosh its exhausting reading your repeated bashing of Nonu and Smith in particular. Smith has been an integral part of the All Blacks for the last few years and his combination with Nonu has been very influential in the All Blacks fine record.
Smith is a perfect foil for an exciting backline. Not every player needs to be a 100+ kg power runner
I do agree that now is the time for the All Blacks team to undergo some changes, as the Henry era, and many of the players best days, is over.
Anyway, I do not want to change focus from the article, which raised some excellent points. Although as you infer, one feels the Highlanders cannot keep it up, and the Crusaders are noted for timing their playoffs run and are not too far off the pace as it is
April 17th 2012 @ 5:24am
mania said | April 17th 2012 @ 5:24am | Report comment
kpm – not sure what u have against nonu and smith. cant believe your ranting bout kahui as well.
there is no better pairing than nonu and smith in the world at the moment. no other centre pairing comes close. JDV and jFourie used to be the best combo but were stifled by the team gameplan of keeping the ball in forwards except when kicking it. aus doesnt have a centre pairing worth mentioning. eng have a samoan in theirs but tuilagi hasnt had a chance to gel with any 12′s. france have addequate pair but nothing to write home about.
kahui is an excellent player and deserves to be the AB’s fixit utility man.
how can u say these AB’s didnt deserve to play in the AB’s last year when they helped win the Bledisloe and the WC? baffling
April 17th 2012 @ 7:06am
kingplaymaker said | April 17th 2012 @ 7:06am | Report comment
mania I think if the ABs had chosen their best team they would have whipped the competition. Nonu, Smith and Kahui as a wing were there because they were safe, not good. Fortunately they didn’t quite ruin the ABs charge to victory.
The question now though is how to shelve them. They are heros and legends, but their past it, with the exception of Kahui. How will Hansen jettison Nonu and Smith without outraging New Zealand? Because both South Africa and Australia will be better, so New Zealand will have to be a little better too.
April 17th 2012 @ 7:16am
Riccardo said | April 17th 2012 @ 7:16am | Report comment
KPM, have you watched a single Canes game? Smith is simply outstanding one of the form centres in the competition.
Nonu is rusty and struggling a little in the Blues environment and who wouldn’t? Nonu grows new legs when he puts on that black jersey and excels outside Conrad.
Like Mania I view them as perhaps the best combination in the world and for his 1st individual assignment Hansen is unlikley to break that pairing.
I also think you underestimate Kahui pal who was in superb form in the RWC and isn’t exactly struggling for the Chiefs.
Where your argument has merit is the fact that some of these guys may not be a round for England in a few years but you’re at least a season too soon…
April 17th 2012 @ 7:26am
mania said | April 17th 2012 @ 7:26am | Report comment
riccardo – truer words have not been spoken on this site cept for your comment “Smith is simply outstanding one of the form centres in the competition.” i’d agree but have to say that smith is the best 13 in the world at the moment and this from a little white guy. the thing i like most about smith is he shows that you dont have to be big, fast and strong to tussle with the best. conrads the epitome of how brains will beat brawn everyday of the week. KPM goes on about size and speed but seldom do people give credit to the rugby brain.
smith , nonu and kahui all to make the AB’s this season. i hope though that hansen bloods a lot of rookies for the mid year test.
April 17th 2012 @ 7:44am
kingplaymaker said | April 17th 2012 @ 7:44am | Report comment
Riccardo and Mania for me 2011 was the year Nonu and Smith lost their ability to penetrate defences at the highest level. Probably it is just age, but they hardly made a break between them except against the likes of Japan and Canada and the in the knock-out rounds of the RWC they were non-entities. Kahui was anonymous on the wing in the RWC except against the minnows, unsuprisingly as he is a centre (note mania, a centre, not a wing). Smith is a deadweight now, having lost the slippery, elusive line-breaking ability he had for so long that turned matches in an instant.
Close and objective observers would have seen the attacking blanks they fired last year and known their time was up. But it seems to the golden memory of their years as the best centre partnership in the world has been blurred by wishful thinking with the present. It may be some more years before the ABs face the truth.
April 17th 2012 @ 7:50am
Riccardo said | April 17th 2012 @ 7:50am | Report comment
Tosh and not as in Peter.
All 3 of them will be there and prove you wrong my friend.
I’d like to hear your answer to the last part of Mania’s post: “who better in your opinion would replace nonu, conrad and kahui?”
April 17th 2012 @ 7:56am
kingplaymaker said | April 17th 2012 @ 7:56am | Report comment
I’m sure they all will be there but I doubt they’ll play any better than they did last year, and they were abysmal then.
Better would be SBW, Fruean, Ranger.
April 17th 2012 @ 8:03am
mania said | April 17th 2012 @ 8:03am | Report comment
wow KPM and like wow. for someone who argues and debates so eloquently and intelligently i’d have to say that that is one of the dumbest things i’ve heard from you.
did u not see kahui hammer cooper in the quarters? i cannot believe u dont see the value of having nonu and smith on the field. nonu is the big bad mutha that backs look to stop and thats when conrad punishes them for not keeping an eye on the skinny little white guy. kahui is on the fringe of breaking up that pairing but his value is his versatility and being able to slot into most posistions but still bring his A game in the big Games.
please tell me who in the world would be better than the smith nonu combo and who would be more deserving than kahui to be the fixit man?
April 17th 2012 @ 8:04am
Riccardo said | April 17th 2012 @ 8:04am | Report comment
Sorry Mania, this was in reply to your post: “i hope though that hansen bloods a lot of rookies for the mid year test.”
Names like Andre Taylor, Brodie Retallick, Perenara, Aaron Smith just to name a few. The future looks bright. We’re gonna miss Kaino and Thorn tho, at leaast initially…
April 17th 2012 @ 8:07am
kingplaymaker said | April 17th 2012 @ 8:07am | Report comment
mania a challenge for you then: name a single break made by any of the three all international season, against a top level team (i.e. NOT Japan, Canada, Tonga).
April 17th 2012 @ 8:07am
mania said | April 17th 2012 @ 8:07am | Report comment
SBW still has a lot to learn. his 12 play is great but now he needs to concentrate on what to do when he doesnt have the ball. best person to teach him this would be the openside of the backs, none other than conrad smith.
ranger needs to be more consistent. he does great things but seldom does he command the entire game.
fruen, all power no brains. work ethic is a bit lean sometimes and goes missing for long periods of the game.
KPM – you have to be pretty darn good to make the AB’s. SBW, Fruean, Ranger are good players but to make the AB’s starting line up you have to be among the best in the world
April 17th 2012 @ 8:17am
Riccardo said | April 17th 2012 @ 8:17am | Report comment
KPM,
“Better would be SBW, Fruean, Ranger.”
This is simply delusional. Fruean, while big and fast is just not ready. Ranger’s discipline and defensive patterns are frankly a joke for such a talented palyer and is not even a fringe AB selection.
I have to admit SBW is having his best season and looks good inside Kaui but one senses his Rugby tenure may not be one of longevity and that alone kills any aspiration for the selection of a new PAIRING.
Your challenge to Mania is a little misleading given we are addressing centre pairing selection for the AB’s and your assertion the Nonu/Smith combination is past its “use by” date. I reckon Super Rugby form will at least have something to do with it…
April 17th 2012 @ 8:20am
mania said | April 17th 2012 @ 8:20am | Report comment
kpm – springboks big enough international team for you? this is so easy i feel kinda like i’m taking candy off a baby
April 17th 2012 @ 8:31am
kingplaymaker said | April 17th 2012 @ 8:31am | Report comment
That’s running into space, not a break.
April 17th 2012 @ 8:32am
kingplaymaker said | April 17th 2012 @ 8:32am | Report comment
Riccardo they are ready, in that they’re far better in attack than the other three.
SBW may well leave and rightly so if he has to wait before a diabolical Nonu while playing 10 times better.
April 17th 2012 @ 8:39am
Riccardo said | April 17th 2012 @ 8:39am | Report comment
KPM,
Your assertion that “running into space” is not a genuine attacking break diminishes your credibility.
Your assertion that Fruean and Ranger are simply ready is worse my friend.
This is an argument you can not win and when your usually articulate discourse becomes so arbitrary, with not a skerrick of evidence to support it, it does you a disservice.
This is an opinion site and we are allowed to be wrong mate.
I know I am – can’t … stop… believing… in… the… Blues!
April 17th 2012 @ 8:53am
kingplaymaker said | April 17th 2012 @ 8:53am | Report comment
I would say those three have unreadied themselves by losing their attacking powers. Smith is no longer ready. I hope for the ABs sake they realise quickly they are carrying deadwood and prune it.
April 17th 2012 @ 7:18am
mania said | April 17th 2012 @ 7:18am | Report comment
you are so off the mark KPM – nonu i dont have a problem with despite his play at the blues. despite their win ratio nonu is still doing a lot of work. ok his sides losing but u count the times nonu takes on the line and you’ll see he’s not idle. maybe nonu could use a fire under him and getting dropped from the AB’s will be that fire, but nonu is far from done.
smith is in better form now than ever. not only is he leading the canes well but his contributions are immense with a very very low error rate.
kahui is in sublime form this season and making SBW look good. kahui does everything.
why would you want to shelve them? past it? not yet.
who better in your opinion would replace nonu, conrad and kahui?
April 17th 2012 @ 5:57pm
Rugby realist said | April 17th 2012 @ 5:57pm | Report comment
If Ranger is in the midfield noone else will see the ball. If he is on the wing he will get bored and then go for the glory hit, get panalised and cost the teams. Then the world will implode.
Ranger is not an All Black yet. I doubt he ever will be
And it will be interesting to see whether Hansen has the ability Henry did to get the best out of formerly ill disciplined players like Nonu and |Cowan, for the ABs.
(having siad that, I dont know what role Hansen played in this during the last 8 years. For all we know it could have been him, but you cant help but feel it was the stern headmaster)
April 18th 2012 @ 5:55am
thurl said | April 18th 2012 @ 5:55am | Report comment
Would Nonu beating three tacklers to score in the brisbane Bledesloe last year qualify KPM. None of those tacklers laid a hand on him as he weaved to the try line from the 22 so maybe thats just running in space as well…
Or maybe the 2011 Wallabys don’t qualify as a top team
April 17th 2012 @ 6:28am
Darwin Stubbie said | April 17th 2012 @ 6:28am | Report comment
Zzzzzz … As the international season approaches the other tired and overworn argument gets dusted off …
Some of the analysis in here is just wrong (how is Hore listed as fringe for example) … The blues are the only team not firing from NZ and that’s nothing different from past seasons – Lam appears to be drifting and there is always 1 team that is normally off the pace – nothing different really from past seasons
April 17th 2012 @ 1:56am
DeSvarta said | April 17th 2012 @ 1:56am | Report comment
My Kiwi brother, agree that perhaps the WC has affected some of the Top players, and for me thats ok because we won the thing.
However the Crusaders just beat the STORMERS who were unbeaten
Plus please tell Mr Hore to his face he is a fringe player, and Cowan, Ellis or the lot beacause the only fringe players on your list are Elliot and Crockett.
4 Teams in the Top 7
Blues have just lost the plot
Chin up Pat,
April 17th 2012 @ 8:29am
Vanilla Gorilla said | April 17th 2012 @ 8:29am | Report comment
Cowan and Ellis were usurped by Weepu who became the focal point for national delerium, therefore he held a more significant position in terms of being a key player. Even if you miove the inport data around it still comes up with similar results in regard to the effect of the certain levels. Crockett had a pretty significant effect leading up to the world cup and will have another shot at it. He got a lot of playing time in the 3-4 years leading in, he just picked a really bad time to have a slight form slump. Yes the Crusaders did just beat the stormer… But they also lost to the Cheetahs, at home.
Hore was considered fringe because he was injured for a significant period of 2011 and played off the bench mostly in the world cup, he was a back up to Mealamu. Therefore i have put him as firnge. He is still a great player and i love the man, but that was my thinking. This is where a level of subjectivity comes into it and everyone will have a different oppinion of certain players significance.
April 17th 2012 @ 8:58am
ohtani's jacket said | April 17th 2012 @ 8:58am | Report comment
The Crusaders didn’t lose to the Cheetahs. That was the Hurricanes. Hore wasn’t a fringe All Blsck. Henry used two hookers per match. Flynn was the very definition of fringe.
April 17th 2012 @ 2:29am
Geoff Brisbane now California said | April 17th 2012 @ 2:29am | Report comment
Yep the hangover blues really has dismally affected the kiwi performance, I mean only 4 teams in the top 7, what are they thinking. I guess depth has its rewards though aye. Still things could improve. That darn WC win has a lot to answer for as has the Blediloe. So what excuses are the other conferences making i.e not winning the wc.the tri or super or Bleds etc?
April 17th 2012 @ 5:19am
mania said | April 17th 2012 @ 5:19am | Report comment
fully agree geoff. VG’s analysis falls apart when you consider the over all standings. VG’s theory applies to 20% of NZ teams, ie aucks, the rest of the Nz franchises are doing pretty good. crusaders beating the top of the table stormers in the weekend with their full comliment of AB’s (less maccaw but then you have to add donnelly) kind of trashes all this stats cooking.
if AB’s are suffering from a WC hangover then aus must be suffering from WC bubonic plague..
April 17th 2012 @ 7:14am
nickoldschool said | April 17th 2012 @ 7:14am | Report comment
Agree with you Geoff & mania; I actually thought that maybe, i said maybe, this year NZ franchises would be a bit ‘blasé’ following the RWC win…instead, you have 4 teams in the top 7, some new talent popping out of nowhere and the likes of Dagg, Kahui, SBW, Cruden, Fruean etc backing up their previous performances. At first i was thinking VG was taking the piss and rubbing it in but probably not..
Mate (VG), after a not-so-good RWC, we in Oz are having a not-so-good SR season with the Brumbies the only team playing some decent footy week in week out. cheer up!
April 17th 2012 @ 6:52am
Jeff said | April 17th 2012 @ 6:52am | Report comment
Bit surprising to see Crockett as a key All Black player for the Crusaders seeing he wasn’t in the All Black World Cup Team.
Also how do you by way of contrast explain the dismal performances of the Australian teams in the Super 15.One team in the top 7 whereas there are 4 NZ teams.
Seems to make your theory a bit wonky.
April 17th 2012 @ 8:38am
Vanilla Gorilla said | April 17th 2012 @ 8:38am | Report comment
Jeff i was marely comparing the nz teams and their position in the NZ conference. Not the over all position in the Super 15. I am not saying that the nz teams are underperforming. I am simply saying that there is a statistical relationship between the amount of all blacks you have and your position in THE NZ CONFERENCE. Does this not seem odd?
April 17th 2012 @ 10:29am
Kane said | April 17th 2012 @ 10:29am | Report comment
You didn’t actually answer the question about Crockett?
How are Eaton and Donnelly fringe players yet Hosea Gear wasn’t considering the latter has a RWC Champions medal?
April 17th 2012 @ 2:15pm
ohtani's jacket said | April 17th 2012 @ 2:15pm | Report comment
And where is Sam Whitelock in all this?
April 18th 2012 @ 12:00pm
Kane said | April 18th 2012 @ 12:00pm | Report comment
And where is Vanilla’s response?
April 17th 2012 @ 10:52am
steve.h said | April 17th 2012 @ 10:52am | Report comment
Well the whole 4 nz teams in the top 7 is a bit misleading with all the teams except the sharks, cheetahs and force having a bye and the strange practice of awarding 4 points for a bye. There could well be 3 NZ, 3SA and one 1 Aus in the top seven. I really don’t understand awarding 4 points for a bye. But at the end of the day this doesn’t really matter, what matters is that all 3 nations can field an extremely strong match day 22 capable of any of the other teams (Argentina are still a bit of an unkown entity)
April 17th 2012 @ 6:56am
Moaman said | April 17th 2012 @ 6:56am | Report comment
“Not everyone can do a Brad Thorne” <—–Not even Brad Thorn.
"if AB’s are suffering from a WC hangover then aus must be suffering from WC bubonic plague.." Classic!
April 17th 2012 @ 7:37am
Lippy said | April 17th 2012 @ 7:37am | Report comment
4in 7 makes this article a bit of a moot point really.
Even with a WC hangover most would say the Kiwi teams are traveling well.
April 17th 2012 @ 8:26am
dc said | April 17th 2012 @ 8:26am | Report comment
i dont get this article and KPM is in lala land again, didnt he see Rene Ranger’s shocker on the weekend. he is falling out of AB contention…
this is the likely team this year.
15-Dagg 14-Jane 13-CSmith 12-Nonu 11-Kahui 10-Carter 9-Ellis 8-Read 7-McCaw 6-Thomson 5-Whitelock 4-Donnelly 3-OFranks 2-Hore 1-Woodcock 16-Flynn 17-BFranks 18-Hoeata 19-Vito 20-ASmith 21-Cruden 22-SBW
April 17th 2012 @ 8:39am
Vanilla Gorilla said | April 17th 2012 @ 8:39am | Report comment
I would replace Hore with Rutledge, I love that guy. Other than that great team.
April 17th 2012 @ 8:53am
Lippy said | April 17th 2012 @ 8:53am | Report comment
Rutledge your kidding us right?
The guy us a journeyman at best, the best seagull since Fitzy.
Certainly not up to test level .
April 17th 2012 @ 10:38am
mania said | April 17th 2012 @ 10:38am | Report comment
no way lippy, rutledge is the real deal. i would’ve had in him in the WC last ahead of flynn. rutledge , hard player who doesnt care whats happening around and just gets on with his job
April 17th 2012 @ 10:55am
Vanilla Gorilla said | April 17th 2012 @ 10:55am | Report comment
I agree mania. Take a look next time at the big plays in a highlanders game. Rutledge is a no nonesense type of hooker. He turns the ball over a lot and is really good defensively. How he hasnt been given a bench spot at least is a suprise to me. He also look like Danny Devito
April 17th 2012 @ 11:13am
mania said | April 17th 2012 @ 11:13am | Report comment
VG you preaching to the converted. i know what rutlesdge offers to any side as he’s one of my favourites. looks like i like him for the same reasons you do.
the only reason imho that rutlesge didnt make it in last year is because of his age, which was a shame cos he has loads more offer than flynn, whose only skill is being in the crusaders.
April 17th 2012 @ 8:49am
Riccardo said | April 17th 2012 @ 8:49am | Report comment
Good team dc.
On the bench I’d probably trade Mealamu for Flynn if he’s fit & Andre Taylor for SBW, given Kahui’s ability to play centre and Dagg’s on the wing. Who am I kidding? Just really rate the young fella…
April 17th 2012 @ 8:28am
Riccardo said | April 17th 2012 @ 8:28am | Report comment
Sorry Vanilla.
Blues suck right now but their internal ructions go back some time and the word on Radiosport is that the cracks start at the top in the board room. Perhaps if they didn’t someone could have seen that Lam was actually struggling to hold his players’ attention. Their hangover is the from the jubilation of finishing fourth last year and presuming the ship was righted… and is inexcusable (sob… moan… wail)
Crusaders are just starting to hit their straps & will be there or thereabouts at the pointy end. Underestimating them after they beat the Stormers would be foolhardy.
What is thrilling for NZ is the emergence of talent all over the park for the other 3 Teams.
Reckon the NZ teams are actually doing well with more to come…
April 17th 2012 @ 8:35am
Vanilla Gorilla said | April 17th 2012 @ 8:35am | Report comment
I agree with what everyone is saying in regards to the fact that NZ have 4 teams in teh top 7, it is great. What I am pointing at is not their over all performance in regards to the rest of the super 15 just merely their performance in their own conference. It is not an attempt to say that rugby in NZ is doomed, does it not seem strange that the two loaded teams are in the bottom 2 right now? The numbers almost work perfectly. I think the NZ conference is strong, it just seems there is a relationship between the amount of key all blacks they have and their relative position in their own conference. That was the point of the article. Is there a relationship in regards to the amount of key all blacks and the franchises position in the NZ conference. I repeat, i am not saying that they are underperforming in relation to the rest of the super rugby competition just that the statistical relationship between the amount of all blacks they have and their position in the NZ franchise at the moment is uncanny.
April 17th 2012 @ 9:12am
ohtani's jacket said | April 17th 2012 @ 9:12am | Report comment
It’s not a very well thought out article. Kaino and Boric are injured so what are they supposed to contribute? Woodcock, Nonu and Braid have just returned and Mealamu is carrying a calf injury. Weepu and Williams are the ones who are playing like crap. But the trouble is that the Blues don’t have the depth of the other sides. The Chiefs and the Highlanders have established much better depth. The Crusaders’ traditional slow start was made slower by a World Cup hangover but there are also signs that Blackadder can’t get this team over the hump.
April 17th 2012 @ 9:13am
nick said | April 17th 2012 @ 9:13am | Report comment
It might also be significant to point out that the top three sides in NZ conference also have two new (or nearly new) coaches in charge in Rennie and Hammet.
I think thats made a massive difference to them seasons. Hammet did the right thing in clearing out players he couldn’t work with and Rennie is a massive improvement on Foster. I still can’t believe a man who’s virtually never won anything is now an AB’s assistant coach!
April 17th 2012 @ 10:58am
Vanilla Gorilla said | April 17th 2012 @ 10:58am | Report comment
Considering the Hurricanes made the finals 5 times in 8 years under Colin Cooper, the coach before hammett, Im not sure that is correct.
April 17th 2012 @ 3:23pm
Nick said | April 17th 2012 @ 3:23pm | Report comment
The decline was well under way before Cooper left. He moved backwards into itm and the canes moved on into what most people thought would be a very poor few seasons. After last years cleanout they’ve come back very strongly.
April 17th 2012 @ 10:49am
kingplaymaker said | April 17th 2012 @ 10:49am | Report comment
VG you have to understand if you criticise New Zealand rugby in even the most minor way you will receive venomous criticism from some quarters. It has nothing to do with what you say, and you could be making the best, most valid and most obvious point ever but it is unpalatable to many that New Zealand rugby could ever be flawed or doing anything wrong.
April 17th 2012 @ 12:54pm
stillmatic1 said | April 17th 2012 @ 12:54pm | Report comment
could be something to do with the fact the average kiwi rugby follower would like some actuall EVIDENCE to support the criticism, KPM!! often which you fail to provide, and you expect those opinions to be taken seriously?
April 17th 2012 @ 1:03pm
Vanilla Gorilla said | April 17th 2012 @ 1:03pm | Report comment
I beleive i didnt criticise the NZ teams. I provided factual statistical analysis which might help to explain the upside down nature of the nz conference table just now.
April 17th 2012 @ 1:23pm
stillmatic1 said | April 17th 2012 @ 1:23pm | Report comment
you gave us some stats, yes. but thats it. there is absolutely no relationship that you can claim as FACT to what you are talking about. i could bring up some stats on what ball boys the teams are using and then claim the same tenuous link. how does the performance of one or three teams contibute to how another is playing? and going from other posters responses you certainly have hand picked “your” fringe abs vs incumbent abs to skew your statistical argument.
stats in themselves tell nothing, VG. and certainly tell nothing about something as subjective as “WC hangover”.
for the record, the previous post was directed at KPM, who unlike you, provides like evidence on any level for his assertions. at the very least VG, if not tweaking at kiwis sensibilities with the argument, you have engaged and formulated a decent article.
April 17th 2012 @ 2:20pm
Vanilla Gorilla said | April 17th 2012 @ 2:20pm | Report comment
Still matic i will go through how this process was achieved.
The multiple regression technique was used, this i a technique which looks for statistical relationships between a constant, in this case wins, and the variables, in this case the respective level of each teams amount of all blacks. The numbers were moved around significantly to try to analyse this. no matter which way they were moved, ie having hore as a key player or as a fringe, removing carter and mccaw completely from the analysis, excluding eaton, moving jimmy cowan and ellis to key players. No matter which way the numbers were shifted there was a negative, or more detrimental effect in having all blacks in your side if you were part of the NZ conference. I have simply given the more vanilla in regards to the results.
I am simply looking for another explanation in regards to why this upside down table would happen other than this player is hurt, which may be as a result of being in the world cup, notably Mccaw and Carter. Therefore perhaps those older players that were involved in the tournament may be more injusry prone would have an effect on your win rate correct?
I did not want to do what usually happens in regards to these matters where people simply write about lynching Pat Lam or that the coaches are the reason things are going the way they are. The statistical analysis shows that there may be other factors in play here, like wear and tear on the players and a lack of motivation from the older players.
April 17th 2012 @ 2:35pm
ohtani's jacket said | April 17th 2012 @ 2:35pm | Report comment
I’d still like you to justify your inclusion of injured players like Kaino and Boric as well as the absence of players like Toeava and Sam Whitelock, despite the former being out for the season. I’m also struggling to see how someone like Adam Thomson is more of a key player than Andrew Hore. It’s clear that many of the All Blacks are struggling this season, but you need to pay more attention to detail. It would’ve made more sense if you’d included the All Blacks who have regularly played this season not those who have been injured.
April 17th 2012 @ 1:24pm
Riccardo said | April 17th 2012 @ 1:24pm | Report comment
Apologies Vanillla.
I see your point.
While it is valid I think the same can be said for the posters decrying it due to the current success of four of the franchises.
As Sam has said on another thread tho it may be interesting to revisit your article post June as the leaders could change dramitcally on the back of Test duty, local derbies and travelling commitments.
April 17th 2012 @ 1:05pm
kingplaymaker said | April 17th 2012 @ 1:05pm | Report comment
Nonsense, New Zealand posters are more one-eyed than any in the world. In fact there are many posters who have never, ever, ever, ever admitted the slightest, most minor fault in anything the NZRU or All Black coaches have even done. No other country’s fans are anything like this. It’s quite astonishing. In fairness they are not all like this and some are more open-minded and self-reflexive but a lot are amazing.
Look at this article. Whether it’s generally correct or false it merits some thought and attention, but it is simply met by hysterical ranting by NZ posters as if even daring to criticise any established AB player or NZ rugby is some form of sacriledge. This lack of introspection, openness and self-awareness will come to haunt NZ when a decent playing contender arrives on the international scene and they are unable to adapt because they are unable to even look at themselves critically in the most minor way.
April 17th 2012 @ 1:12pm
stillmatic1 said | April 17th 2012 @ 1:12pm | Report comment
hows that mirror looking, KPM? watch out for the reflection of the sublime SBW/freun and ranger too!! strange comment coming from someone who provides absolutely NO evidence to support his suppositions. strange how you somehow believe that you are fair and balanced. kind of like how FOX news is fair and balanced hey, KPM!?
you havent met many sports fans if you think kiwis are the most one eyed, parochial fans on the planet. but then again, having something to support your ideas isnt your strong suit.
considering how harsh the fans can treat the allblacks after a loss, im pretty sure the majority do infact find many errors in what either the NZRU or coaches have done. but again, dont let facts get in the way of your tired arguments.
April 17th 2012 @ 1:19pm
Riccardo said | April 17th 2012 @ 1:19pm | Report comment
Set KPM loose on KEO or NEWS24 in South Africa.
Now THAT would be entertaining.
Sorry KPM, it’s not personal but if you think we’re tough try the Saffers mate. They’re brutal!
And your rant lacks perspective. NO ONE is harder on the AB’s than us, the fans.
April 17th 2012 @ 1:20pm
kingplaymaker said | April 17th 2012 @ 1:20pm | Report comment
Stillmatic1 yes I have met many different nations sport fans and in rugby terms, there is no relationship between NZ and any others.
If this had been an article about Australia or England or SA or Ireland or Wales it would maybe have met criticism, but at least some considered discussion, not hysterical, defensive, near-paranoid ranting.
Poor VG is trying to propose a subject for discussion but you would think he had written some inflammatory political statement.
It’s as if the only important thing to NZ posters is that no one ever says or gets away with saying the slightest negative thing.
Riccardo there are in fact numerous enlightened and openminded NZ posters, but they are drowned out by the average ranting type.
Perhaps you put your finger on it. They win so much. Maybe when a team wins it’s fans become bolder and refuse to accept any criticism, thinking that because the team is winning everything must be perfect. Who knows maybe the other teams would be similar if they always won. However, I’m not sure this quite explains the extremity of the NZ posters commission. The reactions to this article are quite extraordinary.
April 17th 2012 @ 1:27pm
stillmatic1 said | April 17th 2012 @ 1:27pm | Report comment
just look up about 5 posts and you will see nick having a strong disagreement with the NZRU choice of assistant coach, KPM!! but hey, dont let that get in the way of as you call it a “hysterical, defensive, near paranoid rant”.
oh by the way, im sure you’ve never been accused of being hysterical, oh lets see, about a certain smith and nonu combination!!
April 17th 2012 @ 2:19pm
ohtani's jacket said | April 17th 2012 @ 2:19pm | Report comment
If you weren’t busy playing Devil’s Advocate all the time perhaps you’d be able to read and comprehend things properly.
April 17th 2012 @ 1:31pm
kingplaymaker said | April 17th 2012 @ 1:31pm | Report comment
Hang on, I was criticising the NZ posters response to this article, which I didn’t write, so how is how much evidence I provide relevant? I didn’t write the article so it can’t have too little or much evidence?
Even if I’m nowhere near, the NZ posters respond the same way to any criticism from anyone.
If there were a competition for most hysterical Kiwi poster, you would take Gold, Silver and Bronze! The others are calm, moderate and restrained by comparison.
April 17th 2012 @ 10:05am
Bobby_JJV said | April 17th 2012 @ 10:05am | Report comment
If Ali Williams is a Key player and All Black for the Blues why is Andrew Hore a Fringe player and All Black for the Highlanders? Both came off the bench in key All Black world cup games. If Anything hore would be a very key player who is actually performing with his new club. I truly think no New Zealander thinks there is a WC hangover, it’s been ages. Sorry i think this article is pointless in many ways. “The Crusaders are also struggling with Carter and Richie out for large chunks of time, but they are still full of key players and have been struggling, only winning four games and not looking convincing in any of their victories.”????? They just beat the Stormers very well and showed NZ has HUGE first five depth, this has not been seen for many years, and didn’t the saders only loose to the Bulls at home by 2? Man there is only 1 bad team in NZ and thats the Blues all others are find and are doing well. The Rebels suck and have Beiber and Beale. Not to mention Cipriani whos soposed to be an England international. After reading this, your other articles and that fact your a Kiwi I would really love to read your view on Aussie Super teams and it’s national players?
April 17th 2012 @ 10:52am
Vanilla Gorilla said | April 17th 2012 @ 10:52am | Report comment
Mealamu was used for longer periods of time on a consistant basis. That was a typo, they almost lost to the Cheetahs. Yes they beat the stormers. They also lost to the hurricanes and the highlanders, teams with a serious lack of all blacks. Once again I am not saying that the teams arent playing well, this was a statistical analysis in relation to the current standings of the NZ conference. Also the Rebels do have Beale and Beiber but they also have a non existant front row filled with aged players, in every match match one of the front row has been subbed in teh first half. Its hard to be a great backline with no forward pack. Cipriani is not regarded in the future of English rugby, Martin Johnson said he is unreliable and inconsistant, why do you think he is playing over here?
It seems no one else is suprise by the current standings, given the blues won 10 games and finished 4th last year and the crusaders were second. They are half way through the season and they are in the bottom two. I can assure you that if i had offered odds that at the half way point of the season this is what the table would look like no one would have taken them.
I feel people have missed the point of this article completely. It is not a comparison of the relative franchises in the competition IT IS AN ARTICLE ABOUT THE STATISTICAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE AMOUNT OF ALL BLACKS AND YOUR TEAMS CURRENT POSITION IN THE NZ CONFERENCE. NOT THE SUPER COMPETITION AS A WHOLE. ultimately your position in your own conference is the only thing that really counts.
Did anyone predict that the top 3 at the half way point in the NZ franchise would be the top 3 we have now, no is the simple answer.
April 17th 2012 @ 1:48pm
Sam Taulelei said | April 17th 2012 @ 1:48pm | Report comment
I understood the point of your article and the editors choice of headline hasn’t helped explain it any better.
You also did qualify your analysis that the sample size was small. There are also other factors worth considering that need to be qualified with your argument eg.
The conference system is only two years old and therefore can only be applied to the 2011 RWC, everything before then is irrelevant in terms of your argument.
Otherwise the performances of the 2008 Crusaders, the 2004 Crusaders, the 2000 Crusaders and the 1996 Blues (all Kiwi finalists that heavily featured current All Blacks who played in the world cup the previous year) doesn’t support your argument.
The availability of first choice All Blacks for their Super franchises and the movement of players between franchises this year hasn’t necessarily been taken into consideration either or the change in coaches.
Statistically the performances of the Blues and Crusaders this year is an aberration when looking at their records under their current coaches so claiming that you could lose 0.68 games for every regular All Black in your side doesn’t stack up when applied to those teams last year.
It would however apply better to the Hurricanes who featured five regular All Blacks – Jane, Smith, Nonu, Weepu, Hore and a fringe All Black in Victor Vito. This compares more favourably to the Blues who had three starting All Blacks Kaino, Mealamu and Woodcock and four on the fringe – Toeava, Afoa, Boric and Williams.
April 17th 2012 @ 2:26pm
Vanilla Gorilla said | April 17th 2012 @ 2:26pm | Report comment
Thanks Sam.
The reason my smaple size is so small is because i feel that this would only apply for when the all blacks actually win a world cup. If they lose they still feel like they have a point to prove next year and would be hungry for another shot. Therefore i considered that the previous world cup failures may have the exact opposite effect to now.
The reason for this article is the abberation of the blues and the crusaders. I just wanted to see if there was any link at all. It seemed compelling to me.
I am also going to see how it effected british club sides when england won. This may be difficult given the amount of international imports associated witht he team but worth a crack
April 17th 2012 @ 2:30pm
Sam Taulelei said | April 17th 2012 @ 2:30pm | Report comment
Fair enough, you should also look then at the Bulls in 2008 who made up the bulk of the Springboks world cup winning team in 2007. It provides more of a similar historical context as they’re a SANZAR member as well.
April 17th 2012 @ 2:26pm
Sam Taulelei said | April 17th 2012 @ 2:26pm | Report comment
While it’s obvious it should also be stated that as this years competition hasn’t ended, any statistical review of All Blacks to teams positions within the NZ conference is speculation as this years All Blacks havent been named yet and teams positions are bound to change.
April 17th 2012 @ 2:29pm
ohtani's jacket said | April 17th 2012 @ 2:29pm | Report comment
It was also an aging All Black side that won the World Cup as well as one of the weaker post-Cup exoduses. In fact, we will probably see the usual exodus happen over the next two seasons as veterans lose form and test spots.