All Black World Cup winners disappoint in Super Rugby
Roar Pro By Michael Warren, 18 Apr 2012 Michael Warren is a Roar Pro
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- Auckland Blues, Canterbury Crusaders, New Zealand Rugby Union, Rugby Union, Super Rugby, Super Rugby 2012
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The climb to reach the top of a Rugby World Cup hill is hard and long. Once reached, the slippery slide downhill is easy. This is noticeable with the Rugby World Cup Class of 2011 All Blacks.
We watch Super Rugby and it is loaded with many of those All Blacks who played in RWC 2011, yet as Super Rugby players they have fallen from form and commitment. Those with the Blues and Crusaders are most noticeable.
The playing Blues, now one step to the wooden spoon, have used RWC 2011 All Blacks Ali Williams, Mealamu, Nonu, Weepu, Toeava, Woodcock, and Boric in their abysmal outings of six losses and one win.
Faring only slightly better, the Crusaders, playing RWC 2011 All Blacks Flynn, the Franks brothers, Whitelock, Read, Ellis, Carter, Dagg and Guilford have four wins and three losses.
Selectively it could be said that Jimmy Cowan’s performances have been poor by Cowan’s standards, yet players like Jane, Conrad Smith, Sonny Bill Williams, Kahui, Thompson and Hore are still putting in some dynamic performances.
Why are the three NZ franchises, Chiefs, Hurricanes and Highlanders, with the six remaining All Blacks from RWC 2011 players scattered among them, doing so well?
Could it be that the exciting new talent of those franchises is on the hard uphill climb, and the All Blacks of RWC 2011 are on the massive slide down?
Coaches catch the flak of poorly performing teams, and if it continues season after season as it has at the Blues, then yes, Mr Lam, please move on.
However, behind these coaches are the CEOs and selectors, and they too should be held to account and shoulder just as much culpability as the coach, and move on with him.
Mark Hammett was pilloried when he emptied the Hurricanes of Nonu, Weepu and Hore, yet Hammett had the foresight to retain Smith, Jane, Vito and Eaton as his nucleus, then fill the team with young gun hopefuls who have not let him down one bit with their dynamic record of five wins, two losses to date.
Similarly, we have the Chiefs and Highlanders, notorious for doing poorly in Super Rugby, now being the leading lights of the NZ franchises. There appears to be no rhyme or reason as to why these previously bottom teams are now on top and the previous favourites visa versa.
Could this unexplainable phenomena be due to some players thinking that they could play on reputation and now no longer have the heart or desire to give top performances, thereby being a liability to their franchise?
Top rugby is really a game of snakes and ladders. They climb the ladder and slide on snakes. Or are there just old and lazy ones hiding in the grass looking for the quick meal before their eternal bedtime?
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April 18th 2012 @ 8:36am
jus de couchon said | April 18th 2012 @ 8:36am | Report comment
Every dog has his day.
April 18th 2012 @ 10:25am
mania said | April 18th 2012 @ 10:25am | Report comment
good dogs have 2
April 18th 2012 @ 8:37am
sixo_clock said | April 18th 2012 @ 8:37am | Report comment
It is because we are now professional. Dollars attract the moths, but players tire mentally, it is no longer purpose driven and they have not always prepared for life after sport. If anyone can create a regeneration pill go for it, but nobody climbs the same mountain twice. Pasture training should be part of the package.
April 18th 2012 @ 8:50am
Moaman said | April 18th 2012 @ 8:50am | Report comment
As a kid BG Williams’s exploits in South Africa (1970) fired my imagination and inspired my sidestep!
I remember reading of his admission that whilst training prior to his selection for that tour he would do road/hill runs and say to himself”if I get to the top I’ll make the team….” but that subsequently he would get 3/4 of the way up and say “that will do”.Point is; There is a limit to how often these players can go to the well.It’s up to the AB selectors to decide whether they have passed their Used-By Dates or are merely hovering nearby.This article seems to postulate the same message that VG wrote about.Are we going to see a cleanout via the axe rather than retirement or transfer to pastures north?
April 18th 2012 @ 10:32am
Michael Warren said | April 18th 2012 @ 10:32am | Report comment
Love BG and his fast dynamic style. A pleasure to watch.
Articles submitted to editors can take a time before appearing here so my apologies to any similarity to VG.
April 18th 2012 @ 1:22pm
Vanilla Gorilla said | April 18th 2012 @ 1:22pm | Report comment
Hey Michael. Similar theory, i just tried some crazy statistical way of doing it. You have used the tried and true logical way of doing it. Mine was more experimental and a different way of looking at it. My theory is that the players that are around 30 years of age wont play as hard now, they wont make the next world cup and they have reached the pinnacle of their sport.
I find some of the readers think we have attacked the NZ teams, which is not the case.
We both agree that the NZ teams are performing well in the Super Rugby competition, but in terms of their current position within the NZ franchise, and the NZ franchise only, things are a little bit crazy. The table looks upside down
I like the comment posted by Shungmao as this was going to be my next bit of analysis. Did england have similar results afterwards.
April 18th 2012 @ 4:51pm
Michael Warren said | April 18th 2012 @ 4:51pm | Report comment
Thanks Vanilla,…similar thinkings…
April 18th 2012 @ 8:55am
mania said | April 18th 2012 @ 8:55am | Report comment
isnt this a similar article to VG’s yesterday? whats the fixation with the AB’s performance post WC? considering 4 of the top teams are kiwi’s and NZ always has one team in the bottom, this isnt really a different post WC season to others. in fact NZ is in the best shape its ever been after a WC. Nz has such great depth with all the rookies coming out of the wood work yet this is the 2nd negative article within 24 hours where a doom and gloom picture is trying to be painted.
if i didnt know better I’d say this is wishful thinking
Chiefs 31
Stormers 29
Bulls 29
Highlanders 26
Hurricanes 25
Brumbies 24
Crusaders 23
Sharks 22
Reds 21
Waratahs 21
Cheetahs 17
Rebels 14
Force 13
Blues 11
Lions 10
April 19th 2012 @ 1:00am
steve.h said | April 19th 2012 @ 1:00am | Report comment
shaks don’t have the bye log points yet which would see them move to 6th but considering they are playing an outstanding chiefs side this may have no really effect on the standings. Come on the sharks!!!!!!!
April 18th 2012 @ 9:06am
Shungmao said | April 18th 2012 @ 9:06am | Report comment
MW,
Good read, I think NZ Rugby is in a interesting position at the moment. You have an All Blacks players that are looking very much like the English players post their W/Cup victory but there is one major difference…. Super rugby in NZ is hemorrhaging badly and they need to keep name players in their ranks until this new breed become marketable. Currently the only way to do this financially is through Super + Test rugby payments, so does NZ have to pick a second rate, aging side as a result to maintain the status quo??? For England they never had this issue because there players had no where else to go because the European clubs were the best payers.
I look on with interest……
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April 18th 2012 @ 9:39am
mania said | April 18th 2012 @ 9:39am | Report comment
shungmao – how is “Super rugby in NZ is hemorrhaging badly”. other than the blues 4 of the NZ teams are in the top 7. if this is “hemorrhaging badly” then its great for NZ SR. in regards to the incumbent AB’s, well alot of them are playing well. blues problems have been on the horizon for awhile so the WC may have contributed but cant be the sole cause.
this seems like a case of aus talking it up to make them feel better and more secure despite the elephant in the room.
April 18th 2012 @ 10:11am
Shungmao said | April 18th 2012 @ 10:11am | Report comment
Mania, reference is crowd numbers and support. Outside the crusaders coming home and the highlanders covered stadium the rest Avery poor attendance, TV rating are also not going great. This on top a 12 % declining base from last year
April 18th 2012 @ 10:22am
mania said | April 18th 2012 @ 10:22am | Report comment
shungmao – huh? where in this article or your blogs is anyone refering to crowd numbers and support?
April 18th 2012 @ 7:23pm
Emric said | April 18th 2012 @ 7:23pm | Report comment
Shungmao
Home Internal Conference matches
Blues 27,847
Chiefs 12,086
Crusaders 18,723
Hurricanes 14,647
Highlanders 23,600
Cross Over Home Averages
Blues 18,800
Chiefs 11,822
Crusaders 17,500
Hurricanes 11,103
Highlanders 13,460
Blues Average – 24,831
Warriors Average – 20,715
The Warriors have had a single crowd which was bigger then the blues and that was its opening round against Manly.
April 18th 2012 @ 10:11am
Shungmao said | April 18th 2012 @ 10:11am | Report comment
Mania, reference is crowd numbers and support. Outside the crusaders coming home and the highlanders covered stadium the rest Avery poor attendance, TV rating are also not going great. This on top a 12 % declining base from last year
April 18th 2012 @ 10:24am
allblackfan said | April 18th 2012 @ 10:24am | Report comment
Shungmao, where did you get that? Just last week, NZRU announced that Sky NZ ratings for Super rugby were up 32%
http://www.sportal.co.nz/rugby-union-news-display/interest-in-rugby-rises-171059
Crowds generally have been up (except for Blues in recent weeks) despite the hostile timezones which usually means lousy weather. The Chiefs have been getting good crowds at home; Hurricanes outside Wellington are getting good crowds too.
At the grassroots levels, the Rugby World Cup roadshow has fuelled Kiwi passion. Schools are putting on more teams, club volunteers and officials numbers are up, the ITM Cup is adding a women’s competition this year, Sky is expanding its coverage of the schoolboy comp and there are plans for the ITM competition to run a schoolboy competition as well.
Granted, crowds could be better but they are a lot better than this time last year (for reasons we all know)
According to Sky NZ, its the Warriors whose ratings have gone done.
April 18th 2012 @ 11:21am
Riccardo said | April 18th 2012 @ 11:21am | Report comment
Even the Blues had 19000 turn up…
April 18th 2012 @ 3:56pm
Samvandamn said | April 18th 2012 @ 3:56pm | Report comment
What is the Shungmao dude on?
TV ratings are up, that is official.
Crowd numbers are also up across the board.
The Chiefs turnouts have been average-good but much higher than last year.
Same for the Canes
2 Sellouts for 2 games in Crusaders country
The Highlanders have had massive turnouts.
The Blues lowest turnout was 18,000 for the worst team in NZ.
Haemorrhaging? Mate are you trolling?
Get your facts sorted.
April 18th 2012 @ 4:32pm
Sprigs said | April 18th 2012 @ 4:32pm | Report comment
There were more people on the cable car than in the cake tin for the match the other weekend, and as for Eden Park at the last game, well there were probably more people parked up the top of the volcano than in the ground.
Perhaps they were all on their La-Z Boys watching cable. Or perhaps the spinmeisters are massaging the attendance figures for some grounds.
There were more watching the game in Perth than in Auckland. How weird is that?
That being said, that secret underground machine NZ has for turning out top players is whizzing overtime at the moment. That Horrell, for example…..who saw that guy coming?
April 19th 2012 @ 5:42am
mania said | April 19th 2012 @ 5:42am | Report comment
sprigs – most kids who aspire to be AB’s dont actually like watching rugby and prefer playing it. when the canes played in wellington i was busy that day. 8am had my younger sons rugby training and game, 11pm had my other sons rugby game. by 1 i was rushing the boys to a birthday party for one of his team mates. by the time it was the canes game i was exhausted and decided against going. i figured my boys are still too young to appreciate sitting still for 80+ mins to watch the game.
my point is we spend more time supporting the game in the background than we do watching it. i think this applies to most kids; and supporters and parents are there supporting them when they play. so yes kiwi’s arent so big on going to the games but that doesnt mean that every single parent and supporter out there isnt contributing to the AB’s. thats why we produce so many great players. when fans are in their armchairs complaining about the game we’re out there taking our kids and teams to games. by the time the SR games come around, we’re just plain exhausted and rugby’d out. this wouldnt apply to all kiwi’s but does to a lot of them. i see all these kiwi’s every weekend in the winter, in coats and gumboots, out in the cold supporting their kids, some carrying water bottles, others bringing a bag of cut oranges, others filling in as touch judge. i see literally hundreds and hundreds of supporters at my kids game making it all happen.
so our crowds maybe down, especially after a long 2010 season but that doesnt mean that we’ve stopped developing our next generation. thats the key to NZ rugby, always always looking after the next generation. while everyone is looking at the performance of the current SR teams and AB’s a lot of us are caring for the next brrod to come through
April 18th 2012 @ 9:33am
Jason said | April 18th 2012 @ 9:33am | Report comment
The article is fundamentally flawed.
QUOTE
“Faring only slightly better, the Crusaders, playing RWC 2011 All Blacks Flynn, the Franks brothers, Whitlock, Read, Ellis, Carter, Dagg and Guilford have four wins and three losses.”
Take the Crusaders,
The form of Israel Dagg is really the only disappointment at the moment, and perhaps he has the world cup hangover. It is the Crusaders backline that has struggled to create the line breaks, and tries that they managed last year. The simple fact is Carter has only been back for 3 games, but as on yet, he has not fired a shot.
The Crusaders could have won all three games that they have lost. From what, I have seen the Crusaders still have arguably the best forward pack in the competition. The forwards had a quite start in the first half against both the Chiefs and Highlanders, but the Crusaders pack were dominate in the second half of both matches, and have been the dominate pack in all the other games, including the loss to the Bulls in South Africa.
The Franks brothers, Whitlock, Read, Ellis, and Guilford do not appear to show any signs of a world cup hangover.
April 18th 2012 @ 10:02am
mania said | April 18th 2012 @ 10:02am | Report comment
jason – totally agree bout dagg. great player but needs to get his huge error rate down. dumAss kick lead to that stormers try. dagg needs to learn that when he tries something outlandish it better not result in putting his team mates under pressure. to often dagg’s raids end up with the other team scoring.
April 18th 2012 @ 10:48am
Michael Warren said | April 18th 2012 @ 10:48am | Report comment
Jason In the interests of good copy and standards, articles submitted by writers are edited and sometimes emphasis or points originally written by the writer may not be portrayed quite as/or intended. I do however agree that there are outstanding players from RWC 2011 playing well, some players now coming into form and those who need to up their ante.
Much has been written regarding the poor form of the Blues, and most opinions agree there is a problem in the franchise. What no-one has supplied yet is the winning solution formula so the debate goes on.
April 18th 2012 @ 11:15am
Jason said | April 18th 2012 @ 11:15am | Report comment
The issues with the Blues have been obvious to many. Not just pundits, but the coaching staff of other super 15 teams.
The on field and off-field strategy and leadership, and the Blues have a lack of quality decision makers in the 9, 10, 12 positions. Even Daniel Carter himself would struggle in the blues with Matheson at halfback and & Nonu at inside centre. The Blues coaching staff are effectively asking the first five to make all the decisions, and do all the strategic kicking, as Matheson & Nonu both are severely lacking in this department.
Even though the Blues made the semi-finals last year, it was the way they lost to the Reds which annoyed most people. The Blues had a much better forward pack than the Reds last year, and yet in the regular season game tried to play an open – counter attack style game, which played into the Reds strengths os opposed to adjusting there gameplan for the team which the Blues were playing.
Perhaps, this flawed strategy is forgivable once, but in the semi-final against the same team, the Blues again failed to utilise there advantage in the forwards and again thrown the ball wide almost immediately.
The Blues Forwards
You just need to look at the Hurricanes game & the Rebels game, to see that the Blues dominated in the forwards, yet with handling errors and the opposition better utilising the ball, the Blues lost.
The formula for the Blues
- Make Daniel Braid to permanent captain
- Drop Matheson and play Weepu at halfback. Even though he is not in ideal shape, he still takes some of the pressure off the fly half.
- Alternatively, if you wish to play Matheson at halfback, drop or move Nonu away from the inside centre position, and select a second playmaker for the inside centre position. (Micheal hobbs perhaps)
April 18th 2012 @ 11:28am
Riccardo said | April 18th 2012 @ 11:28am | Report comment
Good post Jason.
As a long term (suffering) Blues supporter may I respectfully suggest you apply for the coaching role which my sources say may become availble at the end of the season.
April 18th 2012 @ 12:24pm
justsaying said | April 18th 2012 @ 12:24pm | Report comment
Seen this a few times now and feel compelled to say something – his name is “MATHEWSON”.
Gee, that feels better…
April 18th 2012 @ 12:43pm
Jason said | April 18th 2012 @ 12:43pm | Report comment
I apologise for the spelling error
I take it that you have taken offense because you don’t share my opinion?
I used to believe that Mathewson was a going to be a long stay all black (2 years ago), but the more I have watched him, the more I cringe. He simply takes the wrong option far too often for my liking.
My opinion is now that Mathewson is a gifted athlete, a very strong defensive player and a strong ball runner, but useless as a first receiver and strategic kicker. Perhaps, his weakness would not be so critical if the blues had two playmakers outside of Mathewson, but with Nonu at inside centre, the Blues are putting a lot of pressure on the first five, and don’t have an obvious alternative first receiver when the first five is stuck at the bottom of a ruck.
This is not a direct criticism of either Mathewson or Nonu. Nonu is a one dimensional player, and defensive sides know what they need to do to shut Nonu down. Teams will not always be able to shut Nonu down as and at this level, one tackle bust / line break can often be the difference.
The Blues need at least two playmakers in the 9, 10, and 12 positions.
If the Blues continue to select and Play both Mathewson or Nonu, it won’t matter who is playing at fly half the Blues backline will continue to be also rams
April 18th 2012 @ 1:04pm
Michael Warren said | April 18th 2012 @ 1:04pm | Report comment
The points you make Jason are valid and we know doubt will see in time if your theory is correct by watching the 9, 10, and 12 combination of the Crusaders and how they fare over the next few weeks with their changes.
Tinkering with the team however does not give a solution to the franchise problem. Wynn Gray from the NZ Herald reiterated much of what I have written regarding the Blues franchise on Reunion last night. Poor player purchases, with selection and coaching inadequacies will sadly continue to give you poor Blue’s outcomes. The Blues fans deserve better than what they are getting and hard decisions need to be taken to fix it.
April 18th 2012 @ 1:16pm
justsaying said | April 18th 2012 @ 1:16pm | Report comment
I’m not sure mucking around with personnel is going to change the funk they’re in (in fact, you could say too much chopping and changing, particularly at 10, is what’s gotten them into this position in the first place). What the Blues really need is confidence, so whoever Lam picks he should do so consistently so some combinations can develop and the players can concentrate on just playing rugby rather than worrying about having a different player inside or outside them every week. Individually I don’t think too many Blues players are doing that badly – there’s just a really obvious lack of cohesion in the team.
April 19th 2012 @ 5:49am
mania said | April 19th 2012 @ 5:49am | Report comment
jason – yeah alby’s a bit unimaginative and doesnt really relieve any pressure off his 1st 5. however the problem with the blues isnt lack of play makers. its the stupid dropped balls. cant believe the amount of unforced knockons the blues are doing. its something so simple yet they havent addressed it. even missed tackles the next big problem happens much less than stupid knock ons. its like watching children play.
all the NZ franchises were guilty of dropping a lot of balls in the first few games but they’ve improved except for auckland. cut the knockons out and the blues would be a dangerous team. at this stage they’re jsut killing themselves
April 18th 2012 @ 9:52am
Adam_JJV said | April 18th 2012 @ 9:52am | Report comment
Remember the Crusaders 3 losses this year have come against the Highlanders, Chiefs and Bulls. You might say over-performing teams. Yet they Managed to beat the Stormers last week who were Top of the table. Im not sure I would call this a “World Cup Hangover” Plus the 3 losses they have had have all been pretty close and all away from home. Fair enough about the blues, We all know they have been rubbish and have under-peforming players all over the park barring a few individuals.
I think if anything you could say the Australian players are suffering more of a hangover.
Even though I am a Canes supporter it would be nice if they did only have 2 losses but unfortunatly it is actually 3.
April 18th 2012 @ 10:32am
Jason said | April 18th 2012 @ 10:32am | Report comment
Agree.
The Brumbies (currently on top of the Australia conference have also lost 3 games, and were very fortunate to get a win over the Cheetahs at home, with some interesting referring calls. They should have a 3 win – 4 loss record and they are still to play the 2 away games in South Africa.
The Reds (the other Australian team with a 4 win 3 loss record) wins have all come from games against Australian teams (Brumbies, Rebels, and Waratahs & Force.)
I believe the Waratahs still have Australia best forward pack, but they still will struggle when they meet the Crusaders in week 10 in Sydney. A 5th loss from 9 starts for the Waratahs is on the cards, and they will still have to travel to South Africa
April 18th 2012 @ 11:46am
ohtani's jacket said | April 18th 2012 @ 11:46am | Report comment
It’s a good thing that the New Zealand Super Rugby franchises are teams and not just the sum of their All Blacks. Clearly, the World Cup took a toll on players but it was only a year ago that people were worried about the form and fitness of our players in Super Rugby. It’s not a big deal. Until Hansen and Co. name their first squad we won’t know how much they’re willing to change what is a world champion side. It would not surprise me if a few of them get cut ala Jerry Collins in 2008. Cowan is clearly gone.
April 18th 2012 @ 12:10pm
Jiggles said | April 18th 2012 @ 12:10pm | Report comment
Wouldn’t it be wise to wait to assess how the All Blacks faired after the world cup until after the All Blacks played?
April 18th 2012 @ 12:57pm
nick said | April 18th 2012 @ 12:57pm | Report comment
Yes. Yes it would. Super form rarely means much in the international game. We’ve seen years where its an all NZ final but the ABs haven’t done that well.
Also how is 4 wins from 7 games ‘fairing only slightly better than’ 1 win from 7 games?
thats ridiculous
April 18th 2012 @ 1:07pm
Michael Warren said | April 18th 2012 @ 1:07pm | Report comment
Nick, please read my opening comment to Jason under Mania.
April 18th 2012 @ 2:20pm
Nick said | April 18th 2012 @ 2:20pm | Report comment
I had a look and there’s nothing there that responds to my statement. That’s how I read it anyway, I may well have missed a point but 4 from 7 isn’t even comparable to 1 from 7 and I agree with the person above me that we’ll really have to wait and see for the international season to judge.
April 18th 2012 @ 1:30pm
Jason said | April 18th 2012 @ 1:30pm | Report comment
Reply to “justsaying said | April 18th 2012 @ 1:16pm”
In my opinion, you are missing my point
The balance of the Blues is in the key decision making roles in out of whack.
The reason the first fives has been chopped and changed in recent years has a lot to do the halfback not taking any of the decision making pressure away from the Blues first five. On his performances, over last year and again this year, Mathewson will not make another all black team. He is the weakest halfback amongst the NZ teams in the decision making and kicking skill set.